Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Irrelephant11]

Y’all. When I tell you. The RELIEF. Rolling green my first game back.

[Irrelephant11]

Also irrelephant really nice to see you again!

I'm getting good vibes from fire thus far
HEAL: fire

Back at you!

[Irrelephant11]

My wife’s a mom so I can’t really play today but HEAL: Irrelephant11 & HEAL: NK15

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: skitter30
VOTE: aristeia

Least town-cred-gaining post so far. Therefore not scum in this setup

[Irrelephant11]

lim inside:
(1/3) * (2/5) + (2/3) * (1/5) = 0.267

lim outside:
(1/3) * (0/

4

) + (2/3) * (1/

4

) =

0.167

bolded corrections are mine

u kno what, i am dumb, thank u

my brain kept getting caught on the 7 number but thats the number of town

Quick the kids are both asleep at the same time play mafia

[Irrelephant11]

How did that quote get there

[Irrelephant11]

Skitter/Datisi/Aristeia was more boring than I was hoping. I have secret things I’m looking for to catch scum in this setup and none of you did it but also all of you almost did…. Skitter is probably the towniest of the three idk

HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: Save the Dragons

[Irrelephant11]

I guess I’ll HEAL: skitter because I think she’s done more than 0 towny things and my meta that she’s scary as scum might have expired in the years since I’ve played with her

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: aristeia

[Irrelephant11]

Wait no the wagon looks more fun VOTE: datisi

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE: because that was maybe L-1?

[Irrelephant11]

I should be in more Heal lists tbh

[Irrelephant11]

Oh phew then VOTE: Datisi

[Irrelephant11]

I should be in more Heal lists tbh

tell me the secret scum-catching things you're using and i will consider it?

Nice try maf

[Irrelephant11]

one more baby

NK15

[Irrelephant11]

Hi Ari

I’m going to engage with you cautiously because I feel like recent experiences haven’t been great

Tinfoil hat is telling me Ari/Menalque scum team

[Irrelephant11]

I should be in more Heal lists tbh

Not sure i like this in this setup

I was channeling Shoshin so you would dislike it lol

[Irrelephant11]

Also fair

[Irrelephant11]

are we still doing rvs

i thought it would be more fun to do a random coalition stage

since that's what we're doing first

Why haven’t you healed anyone

[Irrelephant11]

I think fire is mafia and if he is on the coalition and it fails I will prefer to lim him

Say more

[Irrelephant11]

This might be rash but
HEAL: mena

How rash

[Irrelephant11]

I’ve decided town will win by coalition, feeling confudent

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll even find five townies in case skitter paranoias me out of the list

[Irrelephant11]

Might as well solve the whole game d1 why don’t i

[Irrelephant11]

i guess that is the 3rd read i disagree with skitter about

Remind me the other two?

[Irrelephant11]

As an aside the five people in the coalition do not all have to vote for the coalition. Last time I won I was in the coalition but not voting for it

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens

[Irrelephant11]

Don't put Aristeia and Datisi into a coalition and we'll win.

Feels shortsighted

[Irrelephant11]

you've convinced me maybe i need to wait for more but i'm not sure that you're not being a little hard on him

HEAL: Save the dragons
HEAL: aristeia
HEAL: irrelephant11
HEAL: skitter30
HURT: fireisredsir

Agree and noting here that I am kinda mindmelding with the dragons

[Irrelephant11]

anyway now that mala has posted my first shot at a coalition is

HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: skitter
HEAL: not known 15
HEAL: irrelephant
HEAL: malakittens

HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: skitter
HEAL: not known 15
HEAL: irrelephant
HEAL: malakittens

I could get here. Why is malakittens more town than save the dragons? @NK15 and @fireisredsir
Also what gives you the confidence to ignore aristeia's scumcase on fireisredsir? I don't think it's like... awesome, but I thought there were 1-2 good points in it. @NK15

[Irrelephant11]

I think menalque is probably town but is losing the race to towniness to others rn
I don't think aristeia/datisi is t/t but that's also a read that feels liable to do a complete 180 if/when someone else gets scummy.

Getting paranoid about skitter

[Irrelephant11]

I think I just haven't felt like I've done enough ~work~ to sort skitter. Like she just fell into my town pile and I can't really remember any reasons other than she said some stuff that made sense, which she does as both alignments

Quick, skitter, towntell

[Irrelephant11]

incidentally, my strategic principle going into this is that skitter/ari probably shouldn't be in the coalition unless there's a real dearth of towniness from other slots as they're the players I think it's hardest to catch on D1 if scum

This seems like quite the handicap to play by. You'll find every townie but them if they're both town?

[Irrelephant11]

like, re: skitt

what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far

that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete

To begin with: there's a 75% chance she's town.
Then: She said things in the dat/ari/skit opening to the game that I agreed with (like "you two feel weird")
Following: She rightly pointed out that me saying "more people should heal me" is sketchy without really coming for me. If she's scum she probably should have come for me as a widely townread townie, unless she thinks I'll lead town off a cliff based on my current trajectory

Even if the second & third things are only worth like 2% points of towniness each, there's now a 79% chance she's town. Good enough to sit in my coalition until the paranoia comes for me

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: NK15
HEAL: menalque

[Irrelephant11]

i would have a lot of fun as scum with dats actually

[Irrelephant11]

I dunno what if scum is just malakittens and datisi

[Irrelephant11]

[snip]

HEAL: datisi
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens
HEAL: aristeia

[snip]

datisi why did you heal malakittens here

hi irrel!! do you have any thoughts on the posts that have been submitted so far?

excuse me while I barf @ "any thoughts on the posts that have been submitted so far" - "submitted"? Is town writing this post to me? I guess maybe but it's giving scum vibes

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77726

thank you

i opened his iso in this link and i was already visualizing what i was gonna write about him not feeling the same this game and how he might actually be Just Scum, but then i noticed his first post in the iso there is around post 900 so there goes my theory

i feel like you're not necessarily wrong on thinking our interaction is weird because i did think it was weird too, but fmpov it is kind of clear which side is weird so your callout is Odd to me

(not necessarily scummy, just Odd)

I forgot how much I didn't like that you almost decided I was Just Scum based on a 3-year-old meta of one game. Like the reason you shouldn't be reading me from that game is that it's very unlikely relevant, not that I started on post 900. Yeah I don't know feels like a ~totally real attempt to meta read me~ that scum might try to do on page 2 to look towny

[Irrelephant11]

Ari if you're town, stop being scummy

[Irrelephant11]

Ari if you're town, stop being scummy

for starters, heal some people

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: malakittens
HEAL: NK15

[Irrelephant11]

like, re: skitt

what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far

that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete

To begin with: there's a 75% chance she's town.
Then: She said things in the dat/ari/skit opening to the game that I agreed with (like "you two feel weird")
Following: She rightly pointed out that me saying "more people should heal me" is sketchy without really coming for me. If she's scum she probably should have come for me as a widely townread townie, unless she thinks I'll lead town off a cliff based on my current trajectory

Even if the second & third things are only worth like 2% points of towniness each, there's now a 79% chance she's town. Good enough to sit in my coalition until the paranoia comes for me

okay, here's my problem with this:

(1) any player has a higher chance of being town than scum looked at purely randomly -- if you applied this to each player you'd be right in each case that the random % chance was better for scum than town, but you'd still just be shooting in the dark at random, which only leads to whatever the non-charisma based version EV gives for win %. it is a good argument for why to deal with people in good faith though
(2) do you think that scum!skitter wouldn't be able to note the same "weirdness" between dats/ari? if scum!skitt would also be able to recognise these things, then why would she not also point them out? I think this is NAI
(3) I can see why that can be perceived as sketchy but don't really think it is. I don't see any reasons why scum!skitt would necessarily see anyone as being a big enough threat at this point in the game that she'd risk compromising herself by going for them off the bat

again, not saying I think skitter is scum here, but I don't think the arguments you've put forth for why she's better-than-rand % town are convincing

You're right that I'm sort of misusing random chance as a way to read people as town. But on the other hand I think it IS actually a good reason to not just write off good scum players who are also good town players - since they're more likely to be town, you shouldn't be afraid to townread their towniness

[Irrelephant11]

I don't know the more I argue it the less I believe in it but at the same time it helped me win coalition games before so I'll just keep it as my own thing and convince you skitter is town later if I feel the need to do so

[Irrelephant11]

I guess the team I would like currently is

5 of

ari
skitter
irre
nk15
std
datisi

if thats what you were asking about.

Why is NK15 town fypov?

[Irrelephant11]

Hm.

and why is datisi town fypov? @aristeia

[Irrelephant11]

Guys I got malakittens+datisi scumteam in my eye and I can't get it out

I'm not even really advocating that that's definitely the scumteam it's just like... stuck there in my large elephant eye

My trunk is not quite nimble enough to hepl, someone help

[Irrelephant11]

I think mena is probably town

why? i don't necessarily disagree, but the timing of this makes me feel like you're townreading him for things i don't really think are town!indicative

Not sure i agree with that logic tho, i think you would like playing scum with dats

i would like for nk15 to actually elaborate on what he was saying in 236 because there's a townier and a scummier universe for 236, but i'm not inclined to ask specific questions and lead him to the answer

ok i'm gonna say
i think mena is town for 255

the post itself is nothing really special that's outside of mena's scumrange, but it kinda makes me think that his trajectory on skitter, doesn't like, make a ton of sense if he's scum

because i know mena has that way of treating skitter that's "town until proven otherwise" and that would work okay for this game, especially as skitt was already starting to think that mena's town. so this kinda "actually i don't want to vote skitter into the coalition if there's other people" feels like, not a necessary stance to take? like, if he's scum and he doesn't want skitter inside the coalition, i think he knows this kind of theoretical approach is not very likely to make people actually remove skitter from the coalition. it does however, risk people disliking him for trying to argue something like that about a person they think is town because he's basically saying "i don't have a scumread but let's still not" which has an obvious +scum potential so why does he do it, exactly

like, this does make sense if the team is exactly mena/skitt but if that's the team, the game was lost at rand and this all is just a formality so i will not worry about it yet

actually this is a towny post hmmm

[Irrelephant11]

I don't know if aristeia and datisi both insist the other is being very towny then maybe I have to consider that they're aligned and if they're both going to put in so much effort to be team players (aristeia trying not to clog the thread, datisi double-checking whether I and the dragon are actually safe townreads) then maybe I shouldn't scumread them. Is that dumb? To townread people for towny things in this setup? My brain is hurting

pedit: It's funny every time

[Irrelephant11]

At some point I need to channel Shoshin again so I can get those really cool angle-shoot-y reads that are based on irrefutable things that nobody would ever think of. Like my first townread on NK15, I felt so clever thinking of that,

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all

HEAL: irrelephant
save the dragons
aristeia
menalque
skitter30

Sheeping the dragon.

Pedit: Shoshin was an unpopular player in many games, but I really got along her and learned a lot from her style of play, I think she more than most could see past smoke screens and read people's actual motivations. I understand she had a "scum IRL" moment in a game in the interim that I've been away, but I feel no shame channeling her better towngames

[Irrelephant11]

How strongly do you care about me responding to 276 because I don't think either of will enjoy going back and forth on the semantics of each other's posts. Suffice it to say you were responding to a post I enjoyed writing more than strongly believed, so it's not that interesting to me as a conversation path.

I'll talk about it if you like *really care* though

[Irrelephant11]

Really torn between continuing to sort you by way of gentle antagonization or flipping the script and trying to make peace

For now I have IRL work to do so I'll let you just do your thing and read me/std

One point I'll respond to: I

was

disappointed to realize a lim can't happen until the coalition forms, making votes way less powerful right now. So I stopped caring where my vote was once I realized it doesn't do anything to provide pressure. Otherwise it would have moved around a lot by now

[Irrelephant11]

Sure yeah, elephant eyes are a little bigger than human eyes. Only a little, which might surprise you - roughly 150% the size of a human eye. I would have thought bigger but no

And elephant trunks can grab stuff but don't have, like, opposable thumbs, so it's hard to get in there without making things worse

[Irrelephant11]

Fwiw i've played many games with irrel, albeit not really recently

I linked that one in particular because it was the first round of coalition ever iirc and it was a Good Game with a good pl

I wasnt trying to imply anything r.e. meta or how we should be reading his alignment here

btw the game I repped in was not the first coalition ever. It was the third, and the second one we won together

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77544

[Irrelephant11]

ok well i was kind of feeling like your more recent posting has vibes of "haha look at me i have towny thoughts processes and plans and paranoias" and less so like those things were genuine. like it feels like you care more about projecting that image of yourself than about the things themselves

and that response doesn't really help on that front

I have a real answer but I didn’t want to scumcase Datisi while he was scumcasing me

[Irrelephant11]

Parenting will probably preclude me from writing anything brainy until tomorrow but hold my feet to the fire if I haven’t answered all questions and objections within 24 hours

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll give a tl;dr of datisi/mala:

-early undeserved mutual heals
-skitter who’s played with ari and Datisi says they’re being weird and one is maybe scum
-ari seemed townier than Datisi att
-last time I played a full coalition game the team was [talkative and working to get into the coalition]+[lurking and aiming to stay out of it]

[Irrelephant11]

Oh and
-I townread most other players more

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll give a tl;dr of datisi/mala:

-early undeserved mutual heals
-skitter who’s played with ari and Datisi says they’re being weird and one is maybe scum
-ari seemed townier than Datisi att
-last time I played a full coalition game the team was [talkative and working to get into the coalition]+[lurking and aiming to stay out of it]

Fwiw I’m now leaning Datisi/Aristeia t/t
Skitter if you reread their early game do you still think they’re being awkward in a scummy way

Petit: pick one what

NK15 can you play more please

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: mala

[Irrelephant11]

I dunno I think most of what I found weird about Datisi/Aristeia is being resolved by
-both working hard for town (maybe, maybe I'm accidentally just townreading lots of posts)
-reading a bit of their shared history, which is explaining why their earlygame dynamic seemed so complex so quickly

Why is it scummy for their shared history to... not repeat itself exactly as it has before?

[Irrelephant11]

hi irrel!!

why did you call me Irrel?

[Irrelephant11]

I think datisi is mad at my shading his slot in the same way I've seen happen many times when two people's playstyles don't gel (I think mine and Datisi's don't gel).

I'm over here like "I'll just play and push and pull and read and vote and see if I can achieve some stuff for town without breaking my back"
Datisi is like "Unwritten thoughts don't exist, therefore I will write all of mine and dislike any posts without every thought on paper"

And I poked at him a bit and he got mad in a self-righteous way I think is hard to fake as scum

[Irrelephant11]

like ok one thing is that the tone does read pretty pure.

i feel that both irrel and std are some sorta vibe townreads for the majority of the game, and either my vibe radar is broken or they're getting read for nonsense reasons

I don't know, these don't go together really which feels a little scum-motivated

I think I used to be better at mafia when I slept through the night

[Irrelephant11]

-early undeserved mutual heals

-last time I played a full coalition game the team was [talkative and working to get into the coalition]+[lurking and aiming to stay out of it]

pick one

I get how these are contradictory though, that's actually a good point. Maybe I just scumread mala?

[Irrelephant11]

Boring game if it's mala/nk15

[Irrelephant11]

if she is going to go into serious mode, i wouldn't expect it to be towards dats

did you see the context that lead to 47?

viewtopic.php?p=13280094#p13280094

Makes sense to me that Datisi's "I'm town" would lead to Aristeia going "hang onnnnnnnnnnn not gonna get tricked again! you wanna really play? fine let's play"

[Irrelephant11]

why

[Irrelephant11]

did you roll town Dats?

i'm town

i will try my best to be townie and to read four more people correctly so that we win with a successful coalition

will you be joining me?

I guess that would depend on how townie you are and whether you can read me correctly as townie in the next couple of days

I guess that would depend on how townie you are and whether you can read me correctly as townie in the next couple of days

why do already i feel like you are keeping your distance from me this game :<

i'm p sure you meant these @irrel?

yes i've seen them, and for those two in particular ari's response doesn't match the context/tone of the above

No I'm saying the shared history context. "I'm town" is a thing from their shared history so datisi saying it is triggering(? better word for this probably) for aristeia and explains why her tone shifted

[Irrelephant11]

I think there's a world where Datisi shading the two most-widely-townread players makes him scum but I also think there's more worlds where his analysis of me, std, and aristeia (three players whom everyone else has seemingly not done that much out-loud work to sort) makes him town

HURT: all
HEAL: menalque
save the dragons
datisi
aristeia
me

Leaving out skitter for reasons

[Irrelephant11]

time to catch up on the thread and drown out every other voice until it is only I, King Elephant Supreme, Dad of Toddlers and Solo Winner of All Mafia Games /s

menalque let's catch up on the thread together and fully solve this

[Irrelephant11]

ari and i planning to join games together? who would've seen that coming

skitt, did you read my Thoughts(tm) on irrel and std and like, where am i going wrong?

Sorry i'm in the office today so i'll respond later / be around sporadically

When you're responding to datisi's reads of me and the dragons please also respond to his read of aristeia thank you that is all bye *hangs up*

[Irrelephant11]

Alright let's start with datisi because I now think he's probably town and I want us to townblock if so, because boy wouldn't that make it hard for scum to wiggle their way into a coalition

DANGIT I FORGOT ABOUT MY WORK MEETING be back in an hour

[Irrelephant11]

it ended early

[snip]

yes, i get that this section is probably(?) criticizing me for my vocabulary choice [snip] i'm pretty sure irrel can also see it's not a very good point.

(3) boy oh boy.

first, i don't do second hand meta cases. i know you've never played with me so it's very unlikely you know this, but i've said this multiple times over in the past.

then, the reason why i almost decided you were "just scum" was because you entered that game and had some sorta game-related action within a minute of entering. while here, [snip]

what did you think was my point here anyway? that i arbitrarily decided to trash my case because you just so happened to be a replacement that game?

2) Yeah it was a scumvibe from word choice. The reason I can both say "here's what I'm thinking" and later "I don't really feel that strongly about that post" is I was exploring a theory for the sake of it. Like most of its value was getting you to become townier by way of anger at me
3) I had no idea what the point was of your meta read on me that you changed your mind on midstream. That's why I thought it was kinda scummy - looked like busywork. But I currently get the vibe that as a person you just enjoy busywork so now I don't scumread it, really.

"overexplain-y"

This annoyance feels real, though I guess scum sometimes manage to get actually-annoyed when they're scumread for bad reasons because "hey no fair! that's not even why I'm scum!"
But this emotion feels towny.

next order of business will be reviewing irrel and std because i feel like they are both people that most others think are town, but that i did not get any definitive townpings from but did get some scumpings from,

So this is my one worry still about Datisi, is that fmpov StD and I are a small part of a townblock, and Datisi doesn't like it. But from experience playing coalition, sometimes two opposing townblocks form and its takes awhile to realize. So I'm trying to let this roll off my back and see where that gets me

[Irrelephant11]

make me think you were genuinely interested in sorting me by pushing me as opposed to pushing me because it's easy

I think you decided too quickly that I was pushing you for opportunism when I was indeed bothering you to make you sortable. I actually did this with no lunch in the coalition game I linked a page or two ago, it worked then and (I think?) it's working now

a lot of it feels like going through the motions for the sake of looking like he's thinking about things rather than actually thinking about things, especially since his latest coalition is "i sheep std" which makes it so he doesn't even have to stand strongly behind it

now, these ^^ things don't necessarily make someone scum. saying "you don't have content 48 hours into the game on page 15" is like, not Quite it. but it's illustrating a trend which makes me wary and which makes me very much not understand why it seems like everyone is townreading him

I did actually fully stand behind the heal list that I said was sheeping StD, I wrote it out, then realized it was the same as StD's, then tacked on "sheeping StD" to point out that we are on the same page, so others had the opportunity to join our page
I think you're scumreading me for being too widely townread for how far into the game we are... but that's a reason to examine those who are townreading me too easily, not a reason to scumread me
This also actually ties back into my secret scum catching thought from earlygame that I will reveal very soon (preferably after a few more posts from mala and NK15)

bloop

have you considered reading the very next sentence in 343:

but also as far as i can tell he is an Experienced Player so there's only so far that the tonal aspect can give me good vibes from him.

I get that you're saying *you* don't townread me for tone. But you pointed out that my tone feels pure. So *it should make sense to you* that others are townreading me for tone, even if you think they should aim for deeper reads than that.

[Irrelephant11]

I think datisi's towncase of Aristeia is a good one and I think Datisi is pretty towny and I would like them both in the coalition

If [person I don't want to mention by name lest they cater their play to me] towns it up a bit more I'm close to feeling comfortable healing a list without me in it

[Irrelephant11]

414 could be pocketing but for now I'd like to think menalque just gets me

[Irrelephant11]

literally no answer

its a pointless question

to be fair

as soon as I read datisi's answer I thought
"oh crap, there's no answer there that would convince me I caught him"
so you're right that it was dumb but I also think you're the one pulling a narrative by suggesting that I've done many towny things and therefore must be scum

[Irrelephant11]

Like fire you basically towncased me and then said "but it feels performative! so none of the town points count"

[Irrelephant11]

And if you think my tone is performative I'd love for you to explain why that's AI

Like it's my first game back after years yes I'm going for the coalition ~with style points~

[Irrelephant11]

fire/NK15 could be a team trying to separate the elephant+dragon team from the flirtmance by amplifying townies' stated paranoia (skitter's paranoia re:flirtmance, datisi's paranoia re:me & dragons), maybe. with fire aiming to get in the coalition and nk15 not as much

[Irrelephant11]

fire/NK15 could be a scumteam trying to separate the elephant+dragon townblock from the flirtmance townblock by amplifying townies' stated paranoia (skitter's paranoia re:flirtmance, datisi's paranoia re:me & dragons), maybe. with fire aiming to get in the coalition and nk15 not as much

EBWOP for clarity

[Irrelephant11]

For a minute I had thought datisi was trying to shade townies to make the coalition harder, but fire is now coming in with the same takes, only delayed, which makes them feel a lot more opportunistic and less likely to be real (though still possible, I don't know for sure, could be mala/nk15 scumteam struggling to enter the thread tbh)

[Irrelephant11]

also if y'all that suspect me want to not include me

you think 5 of us are scum?

[Irrelephant11]

oops did that quote wrong

[Irrelephant11]

mala... prob just is scum

nk15... wouldn't be too unhappy with him being left out

ari slightly on the scummy side

irrel and std i want out

you think 5 of us are scum?

[Irrelephant11]

and i was mostly saying that there are things you've done that people are surface level reading as towny (which was your goal! well done!) but that i think are in fact on a deeper level not towny

now that i think about it, it kinda reminds me of tenebros in the large if y'all remember that, but he did end up being town

objectively strictly yes that maybe should actually be a towny thing to do

and i know the post after was slightly more response-focused

[Irrelephant11]

@menalque, aristeia, skitter

Who's fire's scum buddy? Or alternatively: please link me to a game where fireisredsir scumread most of the playerlist and was town

[Irrelephant11]

nk15, in the part that you snipped out, i somewhat townread actually

oh this is true

alright maybe I'm tunneled, someone else talk

[Irrelephant11]

4.5

[Irrelephant11]

I think fire's case on me is complete crap, consisting of "here's three towny things Irrelephant did, which makes him scum" and if they don't ever re-evaluate then I probably won't stop scumreading them.

Like I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think me being More-Widely-Townread-Than-I-Deserve (MWTTID) is scummy, look into the people townreading me, don't scumread *me*. Because MWTTID is evidence that scum is townreading me fypov, not evidence that I must be scum. MWTTID is ALSO evidence that multiple town players are townreading me (because there's at most two scum townreading me) which is a reason you should reconsider. Which you're not doing. Which is why I think you're scum.

[Irrelephant11]

I'd love more mala/NK15 posts, but if they haven't appeared by the end of my work day (a couple hours), I'll explain this:

I have secret things I’m looking for to catch scum

at that point

[Irrelephant11]

I have been very clear that I am working towards a coalition that does not need to have me in it. Am I your scummiest read, or the most-widely-townread of your scumreads?

[Irrelephant11]

If it’s the latter, we can just agree now: neither you nor I will be in the coalition. If it’s the former, explain how I (the player who I would argue has done the most to move the game forward, but I digress) am scummier than malakittens, NK15, and your other scumread, Save the Dragons (who has the same reads as me but has done less to make the rest of the playerlist sortable).
If you’re town, sort out my alignment in discussion with skitter and menalque.

Pedit: HURT: all
HEAL: skitter
Save the dragons
Menalque
Datisi
Aristeia

[Irrelephant11]

MWTTID

You’re really gonna need a snappier acronym if you want this to catch on, Relly

ah but i don't

[Irrelephant11]

If the five of you could sort each other asap that’d be great, short clock on this phase
If NK15 is town and this is how he continues to play he will only have himself to blame for being out-towned by datisi and aristeia
Not willing to make any swaps on my coalition until NK15/malakittens gets much, much townier or 2 of my townreads tell me with confidence to stop scumreading fire

[Irrelephant11]

Scummiest thing std has done is put himself in his coalitions

[Irrelephant11]

Scummiest thing std has done is put himself in his coalitions

i will not vote for a coalition without me in it, i'm more comfortable picking out 4 townies than 5 townies

I know, it’s not that scummy
I’m saying you’re town

[Irrelephant11]

Secret thing to catch scum:

In most setups, an easy way for scum to gain towncred is to share townreads on townies. They can honestly point out towny things that townies are doing and get rewarded for that, no lies required. In this setup, scum can’t hand out too many townreads on town D1, because it could result in town identifying each other more easily. They’re stuck scumreading and nullreading slots they might have otherwise townread for towncred, because they need to beat multiple townies to the top five towniest slots in the game. This leads to awkward/forced scumreads, and a general unwillingness to do the thing that is most fun for town in this setup: find other townies

This is why I thought datisi could maybe be scum (still a bit of paranoia there), but I think this fits fire way more. And it doesn’t describe dragons at all. Aristeia, too, is looking pretty towny for this reason.

Maybe not as exciting as it could be, but I think it’s done a lot of helpful sorting for me that I feel reasonably confident about

[Irrelephant11]

yay shitty internet making me doublepost

I think you're scumreading irrel for being performative but I'm not sure if being performative is AI for him.

it's not exactly that i was scumreading him - like i definitely disliked the trajectory on me and thought it was +scum, don't get me wrong, but my overall idea was more that i don't get why he was such a popular townread for the majority on the game when i did not see *why*

Well, the last time this happened in a game we both were in irrelephant turned out to be scum. So if it isn't you and ari irrelephant is probably worth a look.

what are you talking about here?

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=75861
it's a bit old though.

My first ever game!

[Irrelephant11]

my scumrange is very wide and I am very good

Regardless, I will forever be annoyed at the people who refuse to townread me because my scumrange is very wide and I am very good.

The fire in my soul that fireisredsir is scum is dying, though it's still my strongest scumread

[Irrelephant11]

I think fireisredsir's refusal to heal anyone is anti-town, because it hides thought processes. But sometimes town do anti-town things and sometimes townies scumread me for bad reasons, this game has me very wound up and kind of confused.

My wife sprained her ankle today so I'll be taking care of the kids more this week so I'll be posting less, @everyone

[Irrelephant11]

irrel misrepped this as well

how come when aristeia reads your words this way it's a misunderstanding, and when I do it it's misrepping

[Irrelephant11]

I already conceded that I misunderstood your read on NK15 as a scumread when in fact it was a "town that I don't mind leaving out of the coalition" read.
I and Aristeia both thought you were saying that you were trying to get me out of the coalition not because I'm the scummiest of those in the coalition, but because I was the most widely-healed. Is it not obvious that that interpretation of your words would lead me to scumread you? Town want the scummiest players out of the coalition. Scum want the most-widely-healed players to lose towncred - it seemed like you had unintentionally revealed you were in the second category. It still kinda seems like that, but I'm less sure now.

[Irrelephant11]

If it’s the latter, we can just agree now: neither you nor I will be in the coalition. If it’s the former, explain how I (the player who I would argue has done the most to move the game forward, but I digress) am scummier than malakittens, NK15, and your other scumread, Save the Dragons (who has the same reads as me but has done less to make the rest of the playerlist sortable).

a) yea thats fine with me, although i doubt it will happen just cause you said so

b) see it feels like you think that you deserve to be townread bc you have scored more townpoints than these other people who haven't done enough. and you seem annoyed that i am not giving you credit for your valiant attempts to score these townpoints. that's... just not how the game of mafia works. im not here to count up the townpoints that everyone has scored and calculate who has the most. im here to find scum. scum are perfectly capable of appearing like town. the point is to find which players have a scum motivation behind their actions. i believe that you do. do you think that you are incapable of scoring townpoints as scum? i read your past games and that is clearly not true.

"see it feels like you think that you deserve to be townread bc you have done more for town than these other people who haven't done enough. and you seem annoyed that i am not giving you credit for your valiant attempts to work on town's behalf. that's... just not how the game of mafia works. im not here to evaluate who's done the most for town. im here to find scum."

This is how your words read to me. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just pointing out that it feels silly from my point of view that you're scumreading me for thinking that I'm towny or for "thinking I've earned townpoints". I do think I'm towny - not just in easily fakeable tone, but in

how much I've helped town

. In fact I've been working my butt off to sort the playerlist and push the not-yet-sortable players - heck, you & datisi & aristeia are all much more readable - to EVERYONE - because I pushed you for reads and/or got under your skin. I AM pissed if you're town who's scumcasing me - ESPECIALLY because it seemed like you took all of your [not-town-reads], clicked [sort-by:]
[scummiest]
[most-widely-townread] --< *click*

and came after me when you didn't actually have me as the scummiest in your list until I disagreed that I was scummy!

[Irrelephant11]

I think fireisredsir's refusal to heal anyone is anti-town, because it hides thought processes.

...what? im healing people and have never refused to

rn i am healing me/skitt/datisi/menalque/nk15, which is still my preferred even if nk doesn't like it

Oh yeah. Well forget me, I'm 100% tunneled on a townie, aren't I. Like 1/4 of my scumread on you was your refusal to use heals but that was just something you said earlygame and not actually a behavior you acted out.

I'm losing my mind, aren't I. I'm getting in fights with people about how towny I am in a game where towncasing yourself is basically a scumclaim.

I am happy I joined this game, I am mostly having fun, but my brain feels like mush and I think I used to be better at this. Sorry if you're town, fire, I can't tell anymore

[Irrelephant11]

I think it's possible town!fire finds me scummy here. I'm very much intentionally channeling players like RC, Shoshin, the worst... players whose play I think is really good at rooting out scum, but who also got/get scumread all the time for it because it's not easy to follow.

I thought fire was definitely scum when he started scumcasing me because I thought it was crap and revealed a scummy motivation, but I'm also finding some of the newer clarifications plausible. So now I'm just. like. really hoping it's NK15/mala because I'm running out of scumreads among the 7 of us who are playing

[Irrelephant11]

Well lucky you I'm voting for a coalition I'm not in.

For you to continue scumreading me, I think you have to assume my partner is also widely coalition'd? I guess you would probably argue it's dragons

[Irrelephant11]

and speaking of prism/last game

also nice now I'm getting scumread for how good prism is at being scum, cool,

[Irrelephant11]

also i'm kinda liking fire more now idk
i'm worried i'm townreading someone i shouldn't be

this is where I'm at

[Irrelephant11]

Well lucky you I'm voting for a coalition I'm not in.

For you to continue scumreading me, I think you have to assume my partner is also widely coalition'd? I guess you would probably argue it's dragons

yea either that or you don't actually expect to be left out of the coalition despite your stated willingness to be

I kinda wish I was playing the scumgame you think I am. Talking more than almost anyone, manipulating everyone's read and the entire gamestate to my liking, leaving BOTH my scum partner and myself out of the coalition just KNOWING it'll get me so widely townread I end up in the coalition even though one player is tunneling me

[Irrelephant11]

I'm very much intentionally channeling players like RC, Shoshin, the worst... players whose play I think is really good at rooting out scum, but who also got/get scumread all the time for it because it's not easy to follow.

maybe our lovely quackup mod has changed since you were last around, but i don't think i have ever even considered scumreading a post of his. the one time i did i felt immediately guilty for it. they are too pure

oh he only ends up in extremes. Everyone loves and townreads him all game long, regardless of his alignment, or everyone thinks he's too towny and quirky!! and must be scum!!! (something I relate to)

I think players felt this way about him in multiple recent micros I read, actually. But I digress

[Irrelephant11]

I never thought I would feel like the RadiantCowbells of a game

"You could do literally anything and would just win as scum, probably" -skitter and fire and sorta datisi earlier, to me

[Irrelephant11]

me/dats/irrel/std/mena

why not aristeia? Over datisi or me or std, who depending on who you ask are the least towny in your list

[Irrelephant11]

but that's also not what i said

I know it's not what you said but I'm getting really frustrated. Every time I do something I think is helpful to town someone is scumreading me for it! And then I say "no that's not scummy, it's towny" and I get scumread by fire for arguing that I'm towny. And then I think "okay well as someone who's aware I have a wide scumrange I'll try to find a coalition that doesn't include me. Some townie has to sit out, why not me" and then you and fire argue that that's just as likely to be a thing scum-me does as town-me

I get that some people are townreading me so maybe I'm just out of practice at shrugging off bad scumreads but I'm getting increasingly annoyed, especially because I'm not even sure fire is scum who's doing it
In fact with how few people are listening to him I'm pretty sure he's not scum, he's gaining like, nothing from this right now
well I guess it's getting me and skitter to townread him but I don't see how he could have foreseen that

[Irrelephant11]

ari - feels really comfortable, not in everyone's coalition and seemingly unbothered. If scum, scum with someone other than mala/nk15/fire
std - based 90% on vibes I think he's town, needs a re-eval before end of phase. Could be scum with anyone, really, except fire
skitter - solving, we keep mindmelding (imo one of the best ways to find other townies in this setup, though obvs not perfect), making sense to me. If scum, pocketing me
menalque - I don't remember why I felt really really confident this was town. Something about arguing with std in good faith

interrupting this broadcast to ask why the scumteam isn't std/menalque? Not saying it is, just asking someone to remind me why, because paranoia. @ari? @skitter?

datisi and fire - I fought with both, both didn't like that. I tried to defuse things with both to not eat the thread. both didn't like that. I townread both for basically the same reasons - self-righteous anger and scumreading me for what *I* perceive to be mostly playstyle + Irrel-is-good-at-scum considerations
nk15 - Part of me thinks nk15 thinks he's solved the game and doesn't need to work. But like if this is town, I don't know how to reassure myself of that. So. Can't come in the coalition, sorry
malakittens - playing? or just popping in to pretend to play? The excuse for not playing could be valid but doesn't mean she's town, so again. Unreadable

[Irrelephant11]

Y'all. I didn't sign up for a coalition game just to play past day 1! We're solving this day 1! I say give it 12-24 more hours for mala or NK15 to magically town it up & for menalque/fire to get more townreads & for me to make sure std is town

[Irrelephant11]

I don't know I guess I just had a flash of them being scum and being comfortable because they're nailing it and everyone else flailing because we're not

[Irrelephant11]

me, you, datisi, and fire all seem different amount of distressed because we're struggling and feeling like ahhhh maybe a scum is in the coalition i just can't decide who. ari a little bit, not as much, but is also feeling the brain melt

and std and menalque are like
"well I dunno I don't see it how you see it that's too bad huh" with each other and shrugging and moving along

I do townread both for tonal reasons and townread std for the coalitions he's suggested at various points and overall don't think either is the most scummy player here but it just came to me and I need talked out of it for a sec

pedit but are those posts just really dumb scum theater? Sorry not to make this about my paranoia, this will be the last I mention it today

[Irrelephant11]

oh no i hope she's OK!!!

Oh also I forgot to respond but she's alright! Putting ice on it and trying to rest, etc. Just makes having toddlers become... complicated

[Irrelephant11]

okay my paranoia moment is over I've decided I'm probably just being dumb and the issue is not that they're scum it's just that they're not in the thread.................. probably

[Irrelephant11]

fire if you could take one person out of my coalition (datisi, aristeia, skitter, std, menalque) who would it be. And if you could take out two who would it be? In theory this would be to put you or you+me in

[Irrelephant11]

i asked mod and she said deadline is just for the coalition portion so we can take the full 7 days bless.

Let’s take the time, good coalitions are easier to find with more time imo

[Irrelephant11]

I slept on it and my townread on fire is back to a nullread. While I think it's possible to have scumreads of both me and std (indeed, unless the team is datisi/fire, then at least one townie has scumreads on both of us) I also think fire is showing the closest thing to a desperate scum trying to shove a townie, any townie, out of the coalition.

I guess another way to say it is I think as someone who isn't me I would be pretty sure fire/dragons/me has a scum, and as me I think that means fire/dragons probably has a scum, and I need to reread to decide if that's definitely true and which one it might be

[Irrelephant11]

Ahhhhhhhh paranoia setting in!

If it's not about me, I can maybe help

After this post I obviously can't say "paranoia is a towntell" anymore because everyone will have seen this post but tbh paranoia is a towntell in this setup

[Irrelephant11]

im paranoid

towntell

[Irrelephant11]

If dragons and I are both town, then I think it's easy to see how fire's actions could be very scum-motivated. The push needs to be hard and fast to get one or both of us out of the coalition

But if dragons is scum, fire has a good read (that either I or std is scum) and I'm just mad at him for thinking it might be me and struggling to get over myself and see that it's dragons

[Irrelephant11]

and because one of them agrees with most of my reads and the other thinks I'm the scummiest in the playerlist, I feel fire is more likely scum, but that I am probably also suffering from bias, therefore a reread is necessary to try to get over my emotions

[Irrelephant11]

Ugh true that was why I townread him last night

[Irrelephant11]

I guess if I have to give a scumcase still it’s “hopes he gets in by way of pushing two townies out”
But I guess if he’s scum it’s with, like… menalque or something

[Irrelephant11]

Y’all ever do one of those logic puzzles where you have a big grid and put an x in each square that’s *not* the answer until all that’s left is the answer? I loved those. If I can figure out how to perform it maybe I’ll do it to see what scum teams I can rule out

[Irrelephant11]

*how to format it

[Irrelephant11]

I am always and forever paranoid, but think it's actively unhelpful to indulge it for the sake of it -- I also think that unless it's rooted in specifics, it's not that helpful to bring up, as it gives scum an idea of the fault lines to attack if town is cohering (and in this setup, if a coalition is actually good)

Can you decide on std’s alignment please
Also on aristeia’s? That would be v helpful thank you

[Irrelephant11]

I can’t imagine a NK15/mala team just quit. I can imagine one is scum with a widely townread player. If I assume it’s not fire for the reasons above, I feel like by the same token it’s less likely to be Aristeia (wants to be outside the coalition for a weird reason). Leaving skitter/datisi/std/Menalque to have the scum playing the “I’ll get in the coalition” role

[Irrelephant11]

Why don’t you think ari is town again?

Also how do you feel about one of us towncasing std/Menalque and the other scumcasing them both? Or we each do one of each, whatever, I just think they’re the two most likely to be in a blind spot for me

[Irrelephant11]

If Datisi/ari has exactly one scum the other has to be wrong, because they townread each other. Why is Datisi less likely to read ari right than you?

[Irrelephant11]

What makes you see an ari/fire team? Neither are in Skitter’s coalition which is tied for most popular, and both seem kinda unphased

[Irrelephant11]

I'll explain it if I have to but kinda don't want to unless needed because I think I'm at a point where my reads on Ari are actually quite decent and I don't want to make it really hard again

What?

[Irrelephant11]

The latter

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah but I want to win this game now

[Irrelephant11]

So. Maybe forego future wins and help me sort ari in this game

[Irrelephant11]

I mean the point would be me being able to believe that you’ve actually sorted ari as only-scum-with-fire

[Irrelephant11]

datisi what do you think of fire's scumcase of me

[Irrelephant11]

Menalque I think it’s dumb that you won’t share your ari read with me, now, just for the sake of being able to win future games with ari. Like that sort of playing-to-win-more-games rather than playing-to-win-this-game feels like it’s kind of against the spirit of playing to wincon

But even more than that I need more (and deeper) reads from you. You think I’m town for what felt like pretty smart reasons, okay. Datisi is also town for some reason. Anyone else you’re feeling at all confident about?

[Irrelephant11]

datisi what do you think of fire's scumcase of me

i don't

a few parts of his posting gave me enough pause that i was willing to consider putting him into the coalition, if ari is being agreed on being left out

but i'd be lying if i said i actually did do my due diligence on it, mostly because i'm lazy and if nobody else wants to even consider putting him in then it's wasted effort and i don't like wasted effort

Who’s scum outside of nk15/mala? Since we can’t just assume it’s them

[Irrelephant11]

Because it feels like you’re townreading everyone who’s posting

[Irrelephant11]

Which, same kinda, lol

[Irrelephant11]

Anyway I would be shocked if fire/ari was the team

[Irrelephant11]

Feeling worse about Menalque and still good about std, real cases with deeper reading to come later. Fire is still the scummiest of those posting imo

[Irrelephant11]

I have no credible explanation for their early interactions except SvS.
Yes, it's early,

It's not early
The only reason this setup is fair is because town can win by coalition,And time for coalition-ing is running out. If you’re town you’ve basically missed the one phase that contains most of town’s win equity. I forget the math but your play sucks and it’s a Big Deal (though change nothing if you’re scum)
It boggles my mind that you are clearly reading the thread but have no reads besides a single SvS from page 2.

[Irrelephant11]

But a person can hold two thoughts in their brain at once. You can think it’s s/s and look for scumminess elsewhere in case you’re wrong

[Irrelephant11]

PSA: THIS IS NOT THE PHASE TO PLAY LAZY. UNLIKE MOST SETUPS, THIS PHASE IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY THAT FOLLOW. TREAT IT LIKE ELO IF YOU WANT TOWN TO WIN

[Irrelephant11]

ok this might be a stupid read but

NK15 can only be scum imo with Datisi because NK15!scum loves to derptunnel his scum teammates.

I know I'm town and I think Dats is town so I guess that makes NK15 town.

it's a bad meta read wrapped in moonlogic I know :M

Can ari be town for this post alone

[Irrelephant11]

Hope all is okay, do what you need to do and don’t stress about our silly game

[Irrelephant11]

NK15 can you do a readslist for me real quick
Like just every name in order, towniest to scummiest?
Surely even if you already know who scum is you also have thoughts on who has done the most pro-town or who has towntold the most?

[Irrelephant11]

Can it just be NK15 who doesn’t want to reveal his scum buddy and [widely townread player]? Scum team is rejoicing if NK15 is town

[Irrelephant11]

I'm angry that NK15 isn't scummier
Because I feel like I can't coalition 22 posts that all give the same singular read
But such play is so audacious??

Though it's also just... not audacious at all if his partner is in the coalition and he wants to stay out

[Irrelephant11]

a partner that gets joy out of derptunneling his partner

how strong is this meta read?

[Irrelephant11]

I really wanted to have time to fully deep dive std and menalque today

[Irrelephant11]

I can give you an example

sure! and then an estimation of how many times you've seen it/any other reason for thinking he would do this often

[Irrelephant11]

This gets much funnier if you're his scum partner

[Irrelephant11]

but if you're his partner, you're basically outing how much he's annoying you ITT

[Irrelephant11]

..........................can't tell if you're as serious as you sound,,,,,,,,,,,

I definitely don't think you're his partner, I was only trying to point out how funny it would be, for us all to consider, then laugh and smile about

[Irrelephant11]

...............................................................................................can'ttellifthat'sajoke

I think I'm in a much more serious playerlist than I thought I was, overall, actually. Like that one time I was really funny and fire got so mad because I didn't immediately answer his question. also now
am I the only one having fun??

[Irrelephant11]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86932

this is the iso of Peta where he breaks down how he felt NK15 played as scum:

viewtopic.php?t=86932&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

anyway this is interesting. Honestly like 50-70% of my townread on datisi was that you and skitter both townread him (if one/two of you is town you're hopefully right, if you're both scummy mafs, well then by pure maths he's still town). I don't really wanntttt to reconsider my townread on datisi but good to know that I shouldn't assume NK15's potential scum partner is in the nullread pile he made

[Irrelephant11]

was thinking maybe leave out mala/me/fire/std?

I find this interesting. I'm curious for fire to actually pick who he would remove from the coalition, and if it would be me like his previous reads would suggest. Seems risky to bet the game on NK15 being town, though. Like his potential partner could still be.... skitter, or menalque, or datisi, or even maybe std, really. And almost nothing rules him out as scum

[Irrelephant11]

skitter how is aristeia not town?

> regularly self-regulating to avoid flooding the thread/being too loud with uncertain takes
> open to new ideas while still coming into the thread with her own
> not really using popular thought in a way I can see as manipulative, like how you/me/std having similar reads or datisi/fire having similar reads could include scum copying bad reads to amplify them
> offering to stay out of the coalition and the only scummy player she's submitting into the coalition is nk15 which like WOW if their scum plan is "scumread each other hard and then argue about putting the other in the coalition and then immediately lim one and the other doesn't even look that clear"
> I can't really see ari as anyone's partner except like datisi I guess sorta kinda maybe?
> towny in tone

[Irrelephant11]

"scumread each other hard and then argue about putting the other in the coalition and then immediately lim one and the other doesn't even look that clear"

I get this is an oversimplification but my point here was an ari/nk15 team doesn't endgame *together* ever
ari/fire? no, ari just suggested leaving both her and fire out
ari/mala? lol at scum!ari just trying to lose in this case
ari/someone I townread? I guess it's certainly possible, but seems pointless to pursue at this time

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: aristeia

harder

[Irrelephant11]

oh good

was just headed to bed, g'night

[Irrelephant11]

Dont think mala is partnered with nk ?
Idk loose read but that's the vibe i get from some of her posts

Feeling the opposite tbh

[Irrelephant11]

if scum really is mala and nk15 i am going to be so disappointed

This is true too though

[Irrelephant11]

I actually like this post by NK.
It actually lines up with how I'm feeling right now about this gamestate. Other than I disagree with how high std & mena are
although, i usually go for a townbloc rather than a scum bloc until late game w/ a scum flip and then i scumhunt hardcore for interactions/associates

@relly this is the one that felt unaligneed to me

If she knows she can’t get in to the coalition she needs to prop him up

[Irrelephant11]

Happy birthday Datisi

[Irrelephant11]

Mala why are fire & I both town?

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all
HEAL: skitter
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: datisi
HEAL: aristeria
HEAL: menalque

i think this is a winning coalition, and in the worlds where it isn't, i think we weren't going to get a winning coalition anyway lol

kinda not expecting this will be the one that gets the votes and thats cool but just putting on record what i want

this is my current coalition lol

[Irrelephant11]

oh wait jk it has you in it

[Irrelephant11]

was thinking maybe leave out mala/me/fire/std?

I find this interesting. I'm curious for fire to actually pick who he would remove from the coalition, and if it would be me like his previous reads would suggest. Seems risky to bet the game on NK15 being town, though. Like his potential partner could still be.... skitter, or menalque, or datisi, or even maybe std, really. And almost nothing rules him out as scum

from this one? i guess so, yeah. we're not betting the game on it tho, we're just betting not winning the d1 game. and if youre saying he can be partners with skitt/mena/datisi then leaving him out isn't like a lock anyway

i think if ari is scum she's likely scum with someone who is already in, and so there is very little utility to leaving her out

These two posts blew my mind a little bit
Something about the pure logic (well, if this, then that, so might as well ___) in them makes me townread them

[Irrelephant11]

Fire I have to go make lunch but can you remind me your scumcase on std (can be quotes of your own posts, but also if there’s anything new) and I’ll write a towncase on him and we’ll see who, uh… idk, wins?

Pedit: why std/nk15 over nk15/menalque or nk15/skitter

[Irrelephant11]

I did indeed intend to ask fire but Menalque feel free to share

[Irrelephant11]

Let’s just do me/fire/std/NK15/mala
Simple, easy, everyone can get on biard

[Irrelephant11]

@Fire I don’t think you’ll keep both me and std out of the coalition. Which of us do you scumread more and why?
(Towncasing std currently)

[Irrelephant11]

well i sure would like to! i kinda think that both of your most likely partners are each other

this is actually a major reason I townread std

[Irrelephant11]

i like 932

[Irrelephant11]

Just had a fun idea of sorting StD’s by pointing out key posts as scum or town posts and seeing what pops out.

18 is the first heal, on someone who had just done something lightly towny (fire) 101 is the start of a long list of times where StD healed someone and at the time I thought “yes that’s exactly right, that’s who’s towniest based on the game so far” Actually let me just add the rest of the list here as I go: 121, 170, 192,
[post]106 had what I felt were good points on datisi and fire and skitter, felt like real solving. I do remember being both impressed and surprised by the quick de-escalation of 117. Not sure that means anything AI though.
122 felt like the excited town vibe I expect from town in this setup. It’s like a fun race to gather four townies and go “yay I got 5” and that’s why I’ve played this setup so much and I felt that vibe in this post and I don’t think scum thinks to fake that?
125 and 139 seemed reasonable. I guess otoh they don’t really remove the possibility of those two scum pairings like I wish they did.
149, 152, 158 is a realistic sorting push on menalque, though I am a bit surprised at how it didn’t go anywhere. Like it started so strong and fizzled so fast. This led to some of my std/menalque paranoia later
170 was a strong townvibe post for me, *even more so* because he later updates the list twice. Aside from being funny, it’s also just kind of audacious for scum to be like “I did it!” “No I didn’t but now I did!” and I think that sort of flip flopping is towny. I suppose the fact std is always in his coalitions makes this less towny than I want it to be, though?
179 --> 182 felt real. 192 was a mindmeld for me.
292 I thought std townreading menalque for whiteknighting me was towny. Goes away if they’re s/s I guess, because I’m maybe just their target to pocket?? 300, 301 feel like a genuine effort to sort menalque though. Actually the overall trajectory on menalque seems real (313. I think.
Antacid jokes were funny, doesn’t make him town but does contrast with fire’s read that “scum std doesn’t want to be there” – it seemed like dragons wanted to hang in the thread, was having a good time. Jokes about the word “ping” too
432 was a good post
488 suggests nk/std team less likely
More back and forth with menalque around 500… meh not doing anything for me
616 was a mindmeld
I read 621 just now and thought “wait I literally thought I wrote that post. I remember writing that post. So mindmeld ig
694, 695 mindmeld. Like. I feel pretty darn confident std is town because if he’s scum I guess his plan was “somehow know everything irrelephant will think and often type it first”

I don’t have time to keep going right now, I wrote the below paragraph on and off while writing everything above. Enjoy this post it’s my Thursday Mafia Effort Post




I think everything about fire is now shouting town by play… except that I’m still scumreading the trajectory of slowly trying to replace me/std in the coalition. The one thing that feels like, starkly missing if he’s town is working harder to turn around the collective townread on me (because despite both his and my objections I’m showing up in most coalitions) or a reconsideration that since so many people are townreading me (including his townreads) I just might be town. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm is it skitter/mala or skitter/nk15 and she’s just playing as if she’s solo town, knowing she gets coalition’d in most realities, while her partner… doesn’t play?
Wait I haven’t cleared menalque either yet, probably should reread menalque before skitter. I’m doing so much work just on the chance it’s not NK/mala and that is… something.

[Irrelephant11]

Just had a fun idea of sorting StD’s by pointing out key posts as scum or town posts and seeing what pops out.

Lol forgot this was what I set out to do. Ignore this

[Irrelephant11]

@fire

i dunno if i agree because i've been pretty vocal about including both of us in the coalition and even if he's said it i don't think he's taken me out

I did offer to leave myself out of the coalition and my current coalition doesn’t include me so I get fire’s point. But I also think we’re both town and I would hammer a coalition with both of us

[Irrelephant11]

I am saying that I am townreading him bc I agree his most likely partner is me fypov, and I know I’m town, so I shouldn’t sheep town!you on reading std. Other partners do still exist for him (namely mala, nk15… sometimes my paranoia says menalque)

I got there by trying to figure out if you (fire) could be town:
Fireisredsir says I’m scum, and says std is scum
If fireisredsir is scum, I highly doubt std is scum. In this situation, std is town
If fireisredsir is town, I could see him thinking me and std are scum doing a “we’re both town put us both in // wait swerve irrelephant is going to exit the coalition” strategy. That’s a way to scumread std that makes some sense – as partners with me. And in fact my play matches that scenario pretty well, so I could see it. I’m not sure there’s any other potential non-nk, non-mala partners who are doing this with std, so fire’s logic is internally consistent in thinking we’re scum together (Aside from us both being towny imo). In fact, if I were fire I think having a strong scumread on std would be pretty dependent on him having a partner whose behavior matches mine - I think that probably means that std isn’t scum, because there’s no one else who’s doing this. In this situation, std is town.

300 posts ago I wasn’t trying as hard to get into your (fire’s) head so I hadn’t gotten here yet.

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry for ugly blocks of text y’all I keep writing these in Word documents while I scroll through the game and then copy/pasting and forgetting that the extra spacing goes away

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all
HEAL: fireisredsir
Save the dragons
Me
Aristeia

[Irrelephant11]

Writing 948 made me realize fire is probably town

Not sure who I have the least paranoia about to fill my fifth spot
Gonna sit and wait a bit

[Irrelephant11]

Writing 946 made me realize fire is probably town

Not sure who I have the least paranoia about to fill my fifth spot
Gonna sit and wait a bit

ebwop

[Irrelephant11]

My point was never that *YOUR unwritten thoughts don’t exist*
It was that you seem to *think unwritten thoughts don’t exist*

[Irrelephant11]

Only scum (&the occasional OCD player) explain everything they do. Town are too busy looking for scum

If you have specific questions, ask

[Irrelephant11]

ok yea i want skitter/datisi/ari/menalque

fine with whoever is consensus of me/irrel/std in the last spot

What’s *your* townread of Menalque based on? Maybe I missed it

[Irrelephant11]

no, no, i got that, that's what i'm saying. i feel like you're seeing some sorta deep thought process behind std's posts and i'm like "this looks like a puddle to me" so i'm thinking if it's me who's wrong or the kids who's wrong

pedit: @irrel

Town summary of std:
-having fun coalitioning (I think scum kinda dread it)
-seemingly not manipulating his way into the coalition, even when three people scumread him
-reads I agreed with
-townreading lots of townies, dangerous play for scum imo

[Irrelephant11]

How astute. Can you provide reads on players who are not datisi/ari?

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like we are not progressing anymore. And there is no coalition in sight.

Is this a white flag

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll give a tl;dr of datisi/mala:

-early undeserved mutual heals
-skitter who’s played with ari and Datisi says they’re being weird and one is maybe scum
-ari seemed townier than Datisi att
-last time I played a full coalition game the team was [talkative and working to get into the coalition]+[lurking and aiming to stay out of it]

HEAL: Menalque
HEAL: Not Known 15
HEAL: Skitter30
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: Irrelephant11
No mala.
Not the still extremely likely ari/datisi
No STD.

[Irrelephant11]

no, no, i got that, that's what i'm saying. i feel like you're seeing some sorta deep thought process behind std's posts and i'm like "this looks like a puddle to me" so i'm thinking if it's me who's wrong or the kids who's wrong

pedit: @irrel

Town summary of std:
-having fun coalitioning (I think scum kinda dread it)
-seemingly not manipulating his way into the coalition, even when three people scumread him
-reads I agreed with
-townreading lots of townies, dangerous play for scum imo

\hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Is this a white flag