Micro 1026: 09:12 | Game Over
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Hey everybody! It's been a long time since I've played forum mafia, but I look forward to meeting and playing with you! I think the setup is very intuitive and interesting but don't be surprised if it takes me some time to work out how all of this fits together.
I know everyone else has an avatar, I tried to upload one but it wouldn't go so I'll try to work around the dashboard some more and figure it out.
VOTE: Datisi for clearly knowing too much-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I want to chew on this and think for awhile, but I think there's a lot wrong with this.In post 18, Datisi wrote:yes. part of it is in jest, because i know innocentvillager will match into anything he can to call me scum early (he's a treasure), part of it I s serious as i am not in the mood to listen to arguments about how i'm scum because i offered to help someone.
would you like to declare a scumread on me because of being concerned about my own image?-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Not really other than if I blow something with the voting system. You're all new to me and I'm nervous about that but I am town, and no one has ever found my skill in mafia lacking even if I expect this site to be a different ballgame.In post 22, marcistar wrote:faker r u nervous or no?
Excited, though? Oh yeah.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Why are you worried about that for me and not Datisi, marcistar?
Datisi chose to vote innocentvillager and start talking to him in the very first post of the game. In the next, he's worried about being scumread by innocentvillager specifically. He originally framed it to the entire game before I asked. This is really self-conscious: and about one specific person's perception!-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I am currently voting you. I find the interlocking intriguing and definitely scummy, but I am a big fan of the Socratic method.In post 33, Datisi wrote:
what do you think?In post 30, Faker wrote:Do you think Datisi immediately went to interact with innocentvillager with the goal of sorting that player, or with the goal of getting them off of his [Datisi's] back?
I wanted to leave off marcistar with the last word, there are plenty of others around to weigh in and I don't want to tunnel you right now.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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It turned serious with the specificity of 18.In post 41, Datisi wrote:
sorry, wasn't sure if the vote was rvs or srs.In post 34, Faker wrote:I am currently voting you. I find the interlocking intriguing and definitely scummy, but I am a big fan of the Socratic method.
intriguing and scummy is an interesting combination.do you think it's likely that i rolled scum, and decided to start seriously getting out of innocentvillager's impending scumread on me on page one, and in that fashion?
I don't know how much outside mafia you have played, but it is extremely typical of most websites to attempt to read people you are familiar with by pressuring them right off the bat, as well as "front run" people you are familiar with as mafia to get ahead of potential scumreads. In Post #18, your selfconcern with innocentvillager's perception of you, rather than waiting to see what happened, pointed to the "front run" theory. This does not mean a master plan but a vague idea of just starting the dance on your own terms.
Let me pose a different question to you: Is my suspicion of this duality unclear or outright unreasonable from your perspective?
I chose to bold your question because it feels as though you are trying to phrase the question to get me to commit to more than I could ever give as either alignment, or trying to dissuade me by being dogged. I don't know you personally, nor innocentvillager. Despite starting on the right foot with "do you believe?", everything about the question doesn't seem interested in the fact that I have made what I found conflicting clear & why it was scummy to me. The diction is much more applying force in the vein of "I don't do this and you better admit it" rather than "That's reasonable for page 1 but you're wrong"-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I am very wary of protracting out the conversation. To be blunt, even if I am biased I feel my point is very reasonable and intuitive, if not before than with 57 as a very explicit roadmap. It is not intended to be a mathematical proof to be either proven beyond doubt or dismissed as worthless if it cannot be. If you think it is flatly unreasonable for me to hold it, or that I am scum for doing so, we can switch the topic to that, but I have little interest in the idea that Imightbe wrong, as this is not new, and my initial take is not the only one important to the game.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I suspect this is stylistic, but I was also a touch disappointed at the lack of follow through.In post 102, marcistar wrote:he failed the vibe check.
specifically, 75 has nasty nasty vibes
him commenting about how deep it is, but not adding any comment otherwise felt weird imo.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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While hopefully fictitious, I think you might enjoy the music of Tom Lehrer. Hopefully this is not blocked in Norway.In post 125, NorwegianboyEE wrote:I saw @Datisi out by the park today, feeding birds m&m’s laced with arsenic.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I think we're on the same page about this. One of the key points in Post #65 is that you simply hit foundational bedrock, and that there's no way to really separate the two without more strategic developments/twists over time. We could repartee all day and be tough to follow but any questions would really just get another restatement, which can be valuable if needed for understanding but I didn't think understanding was out issue.In post 72, Datisi wrote:what i was trying to figure out however was whether you're actually thinking about what you're saying or if you're scum pushing a townie that's making a somewhat scummy play. because sure, the "scum is more likely to be self-conscious" read is maybe correct, on the surface. and you're right in saying that when people roll scum with friends, they're likely to try to front run. what i was looking for were deeper thoughts on my play, because while i can see my posts looking like it on first glance, do you think i believe that "lol iv will scumread me anyway" is likely to genuinely win me any favours?
that said, i somewhat like the last paragraph of 57. i can see the way that my question feels leading to someone who has zero experience with this playerlist, and 65 seems like it cares about the game's overall productivity.
...Again a little less than enthused with this given the ease with which you seem to have understood my point, but I'll circle back when I have more information on the table.In post 115, Datisi wrote:i actually had that thought process way back before 2207 started. before every game, i have a vague "how to deal with this person if i roll scum against them" plan, and back then i realized that oh fuck, town!iv is gonna be a headache. but then i rolled town so lol-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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My very last post was aimed at providing the simplest statement of my Datisi push, so I'm not sure where you think I "dropped off". If you think I should be more dogged, perhaps this can be a teaching moment and you can walk me through what I should do in the wake of the thoughts and feelings I described having in Post #65 in order to be most effective as town.In post 139, unwnd wrote:Faker started off ready to heckin solve then dropped off after datisi challenged their mettle
Why
"Dropped off" seems to be talking more about my posting rather than strength of read, and if that is true I have a question: I believed the norm was to post at least once every 48 hours — is this only the bare minimum and it is expected that I post with much more regularity? At the risk of giving our opponents ideas, I am almost completely unavailable on weekends, along with the majority of weekday evenings. Weekday afternoons or weekend mornings are really primetime for me before I get too tangled up in other obligations.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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In general, I didn't take a lot out of the last few pages. Understanding IV/Datisi's back and forth is important to my line of thought but seems very history-specific and difficult to understand as someone familiar with neither. Maybe Dragons was ahead of the curve in getting a bit disheartened by it.
Whatever charm the M&Ms's possess to the other players is unfortunately completely lost on me.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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The conversation is esoteric and lacking in clear significance throughout. As an example, here was my breakdown of one of the posts.In post 178, Datisi wrote:so, if that's [IV/Datisi interactions] so important to you, and you're finding it difficult (which i can't really blame you for), instead of asking questions about what you don't understand, you will instead drop the whole thing?
[1] revolves around the concrete facts of a previous game. I understand there is some theoretical dispute around the described event. I cannot tell what the significance to this game is whether you genuinely believed the push described. I do not even know if your alignment hinges on the truth value of the statement.In post 155, Datisi wrote:
[1] i deadass do not remember this, sorryIn post 152, innocentvillager wrote:and i think u called my georgebailey townread BS when he hadn't posted anythign at all at that point (when it was , obviously)
i can't tell you if i genuinely believed the push i was making there, but it's very likely i did. however, i probably believed it because i knew you were scum and every post you made was A Scum Post, so easy to find the issues. tmi.
[2] i mean i cannot tell you if i genuinely would've found your townread of george in 2175 scummy or not bc i obviously never had a chance to experience it from an uninformed pov
[3] but i think in general i would try to determine whether a read based on low content is real or not on a case-to-case basis, because i sometimes have reads on people for the dumbest shit and i don't like having a blanket read on a situation like that
[4] however, the fact that you reminded me of you townreading someone for empty content as scum is making me not townread you for that anymore
[5] i assume scum!you wouldn't purposefully kill my townread on you but what if that's what you want me to think
[2] is more of the same, but centers more on IV's read of George than yours of IV in this second game. I again cannot make out the significance other than determining how well you know each other. It is unclear to me if the discussion has any obvious relevance to your alignment this game.
[3] is theoretical. It says something about how you approach the game. Perhaps this will be useful later, but there is no reason to think that this theoretical discussion, without any concrete bearing or application ingame thus far, is alignment-bearing.
[4] is a concrete conclusion. It is essentially that a tell is null. Our investment in this discussion is paying off in spades.
[5] appears to be "Would he or wouldn't he?". You seem to think he wouldn't. If you're not sure, I'm definitely not going to be.
Candidly, I have to understand what the important parts of the discussion are in order to be able to ask the right questions. It is very unlikely that this conversation is worth reading to anyone except yourselves. I am the person most invested in it thus far, and I think that. For all the discussion around my disinterest, no other player has mustered similar faith in its usefulness or attempt to digest it beyond Dragon's "this goes deeper" comment.
I did not seek to curb the discussion entirely because it's your dance and your discussion. I can observe the beginning and vaguely follow. I cannot keep track of the way your feet weave in and out of one another's as the dance goes on, the steps more intricate, and the song changes time signatures and tempos. You place the value on it you want, and if you believe it is a worthwhile endeavor it is my job to stay out of your way. If either of you wind up getting something concrete and persuasive, then you can present the conclusion and brief explanation succinctly without my having to do research on par with a graduate degree for it.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I can confidently state that if both my lifespan were infinite, and the game's deadline equally so, I would place the utmost priority on understanding exactly who townread who in that game and what, along with studying and presenting solid foundational conclusions as to its bearing on this game in full, and not simply wait for you to make another mistake as every uninformed minority in history has done. Alas, I must take shortcuts.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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You are voting no one. I should remind you that you have been presented a golden teaching moment around how to effectively scumhunt if you find me worth the time. I can of course press the same point as mafia, but you have presented zero reason that suggests it would not come from town, nor engaged directly with the point itself. This appears to be skepticism for the sake of skepticism, which is nothing novel.In post 201, unwnd wrote:I somewhat don't believe fakers motivation yeah-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I'm a true Socratic in the sense that you seemed to think there was a better alternative to the path I took as town. I'm asking you to be my teacher and present one.In post 266, unwnd wrote:Then don't point to your own post like a jackass and tote it like a learning opportunity-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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On a more lighthearted note, maybe that wasn't Republic I read but Don Knuth, always tough to tell and my humanities background is rather lacking. Too much time getting Bs in computer science, probably explains why my sorting algorithms I use in games like these always goes so awry.
If you think I'm lacking in human touch, then fair enough, but there's an object of the game that you presumably share with me.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Nope.In post 284, marcistar wrote:so theres nobody else who sticks out even in the slightest bit as "weird" or "worse compared to everyone else" to you?
I would really like to go to bed now since I get up very early, but if there is someone you individually want to talk about I would be happy to answer it in the late morning/afternoon my time. I discussed this earlier but balance is really important to me and checking in daily or even multiple times in a day is already more than I expected to take on. If you're worried I will use the time to cook up a response, we can arrange later to again be on simultaneously.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I think that's a valid fear. I will always do my best not to tunnel, and in general I think I do a decent job. I'm not really someone that ever beats themselves up for overthinking something or for not trusting my gut, for example. I like to be rigorous, at least within reason.In post 287, marcistar wrote:im worried about you. you seem biased against datisi, and you seem stubborn.
the stubbornness isn't like really bad, i just think you should open up ur mind and start trying to sort other players as well..
if datisi is scum that would be amazing, but if hes town you're back at 0. its that situation im worried about.
i think you could carry tbhtbh.
I'm still voting Datisi for pages 1-3 but there hasn't really been anything else to solidify the read. It would have been easy to take a more negative or "Datisi is scummy for this..." lens to my Post #255. I think Datisi/IV themselves probably get a lot of value out of that discussion and didn't want to get in the way. Datisi just demanded to know why I wasn't asking questions or digging deeper, so I gave a demonstration.
After initially tracking through the game Sunday morning, and finding nothing else to really scumread, turned my attention to townreads, historically more my strongsuit anyway, and was kind of annoyed to find none, either.
I definitely want to read outside Datisi and keep an open mind, both about and him and other players. Nobody took any interest in my initial point against him anyway, so it's unlikely to be persuasive, and I'm content to wait patiently for another mistake if he's mafia, something that makes me think he's town, or something that catches my eye and shifts my attention to another player.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Going this far out of her way to try to both get in the middle of the unwnd ad hom, and growing concerned about my singular read on Datisi to set me on a more level path, makes me think that marcistar is very likely to be town. While scum will occasionally drop in or lazily call an argument both town, very few make an active attempt to interject and defuse without a more explicit goal in mind (such as selling a specific alternative vote)
Am I wrong? Does anyone scumread the slot or think this is likely null?-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I went and compared two mafia games of marcistar's to this one. In the first, she's surprisingly thorough with her reads, asks good even if leading questions, and there is a fair amount of emotional complexity even if it tends to come more wall-style. In the second, she is voted out rather quickly and basically makes no game related comments. Flicking through a recent game where she played as town, there's a bit more of the leading questions/wall style but nothing clearly parallel or applicable to this game.
That first game definitely has me a bit more onguard, but overall I think the lack of any similarly interjecting way in her history reinforces the townread. There is a very small snippet of this post from her first game as mafia that asks a similar question, but without the background/genuine encouragement behind it.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Despite his frequency of posting, I am finding him immensely difficult to read. The most substantive posts come from the historical analysis with Datisi, but beyond that there are only a few reads really worth noting.In post 303, marcistar wrote:i feel like innocentvillager has enough content to have a feeling on, do u have any thoughts on him?
His read on unwnd appears to be tonal, maybe grounded in history maybe not. I'm kind of curious if he's kept it to the present because unwnd has said exactly two productive lines all game, one on Dragons and one on me. The one on me he immediately upped and ran/took refuge in ad hominem when challenged to explore it more deeply. The one on Dragons actually got me to think deeply about that post of Dragon's, and I wound up concurring that Dragon's post had a lot going on. I did not wind up shifting either out of the null stack in my mind for it, but it was cool to think about for a bit.
The others (ex. on Norwegian) appear to be both more personal history with a lot of hedging.
2072 you actually do similar interjection with Lukewarm so that read should probably go in the trash. There are still some differences (unwnd's attack was weirdly personal despite the walkback, my contemptuous responses equally so even if I did want him to rise to the occasion) I could cling to out of desperation to be right but I'll see how I feel later...Plus linking this game in light of that is rather bold.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Well, it all started when I was born...First it was my elementary school teacher, who praised....And when I was 15, my english teacher held me after class... I'm clearly a great writer, so why is it so lifeless.....Once, while engrossed in a deep conversation with my friend by a fire on spring break: can you guess what he said to me? He said...In post 308, Save The Dragons wrote:faker - how come you can come up with a scum read of datisi from 1 post but can't come up with another read either way with multiple posts
The real answer is that it depends on the content and how attuned I am to it.
I tried to figure this out for awhile and it seemed to boil down to lack of activity and perhaps with personal history that is indicative. It was a deadend.marcistar wrote:
i was looking for a conclusion thanks.In post 307, Faker wrote:While the above is true, I thought I included an additional line in Post #304, but did not. "I don't scumread unwnd but I definitely don't townread him" was the line.
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what do you think about the georgebailey votes?-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Can you elaborate what, in my breakdown where I explicitly tried and failed to make any conclusions about the discussion in that post, should have impacted my read on you? I could attempt to paint them in some scummy (or towny) light if I wished but for something so completely unintelligble and lacking in significance it would have been disingenuous to do so. Perhaps if I had a certain agenda in mind, rather than simply answering your question and letting you/IV sort each other how you wished....In post 310, Datisi wrote:255 is probably the post i should have more conclusions on but i'm not sure i do. i'm still off-put by the claim that it's important for him to understand the conversation. not being willing to put effort into it is one thing, hell i'd expect most people as either alignment wouldn't really care since the discussion wasn't *for them* anyway, but. something about the combination of still holding onto his page 1-3 read on me, saying he finds the discussion important, then taking the time to demonstrate at length why it's difficult to understand - dunno, makes me raise an eyebrow. i guess i'd kind of expect the further discussion to have impacted his early read on me, when that doesn't seem to be the case.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Was this player town or scum? What do you think about the last page or so?In post 313, innocentvillager wrote:also STD does Faker remind you a bit of gorilla in defcon or am I just craZy-
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In post 316, innocentvillager wrote:Also faker why am I difficult to read? I feel like u talked about my townread on unwnd then just started talking about unwndFaker wrote:
Despite his frequency of posting, I am finding him immensely difficult to read.In post 303, marcistar wrote:i feel like innocentvillager has enough content to have a feeling on, do u have any thoughts on him?The most substantive posts come from the historical analysis with Datisi, but beyond that there are only a few reads really worth noting.
His read on unwnd appears to be tonal, maybe grounded in history maybe not. I'm kind of curious if he's kept it to the present because...
The others (ex. on Norwegian) appear to be both more personal history with a lot of hedging.-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I tried to take conclusions. I failed. You went after me for failing. I demonstrated where it turned labyrinthine and failed,In post 325, Datisi wrote:
not sure there's a specific point. it's more that your original read on me seemed to stem form incorrect assumptions about my play, and i imagined that finding out more about my play / history with iv would have leas you to reevaluate.In post 314, Faker wrote:Can you elaborate what, in my breakdown where I explicitly tried and failed to make any conclusions about the discussion in that post, should have impacted my read on you?again, despite the second pass. I am quickly, quickly losing all patience and will probably leave you to sort it out for yourself very soon if this continues.
You failed to understand the significance of my choice with how to interact, both without my intervention and with the more explicit poke. I clearly planned this in advance and it is not just a riposte towards the fact you keep trying to assert I am obviously scummy for failing to draw any conclusion from your esoteric bullshit despite wishing that I could.In post 325, Datisi wrote:is there a reason why you feel the need to point out multiple times that that there was an opening you could've pushed your agenda in if you'd wanted?-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Faker Mafia Scum
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I don't even fucking know if the wallet is there because neither of you seem to think anything either of you said was strongly representative of alignment. The most fucking concrete conclusion in that wall was something you thought was town was in fact, null. Maybe I can spin the roulette wheel and say that the manner of discussion is scummy but I'm not doing that, and I'm not going to try to put a number to how nervous you are in the interactions because I can't even tell what half the shit was ever about
Jesus Christ-
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Name which one and vote one then.In post 334, unwnd wrote:I think datisi/faker has one-
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Talk is cheap. Saying scum is somewhere without calling which is a lazy or scum copout.In post 337, unwnd wrote:Why are you anxious about my vote
I would also accept a detailed explanation as to why exactly one of us is scum, but in all my years of playing informed minority games I have never in my life seen one that amounted to more than "It feels like it"-
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I have absolutely no questions about it and absolutely will not revisit it and put forth more effort there.In post 338, Datisi wrote:i didn't go after you for failing, i went after you for seemingly not trying while putting emphasis on how important it was for you.the second time, it seemed like there were obvious questions you could've asked (ehat happened in the other game?) that just weren't there.this isn't omgus, i'm not suspecting you just for voting me.
and i'm not falling for that abrasive emotional fit.-
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And I am challenging you to prove the causal connections, because I don't think that you can. You can't even justify the single scumread other than a vague accusation that I am unnatural.In post 340, unwnd wrote:I gave a general split in a game where there are only two scum
If you didn't think i directly pointed my suspicion then you're not paying attention-
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Answering this directly, I can be more abrasive as scum. It would be a mistake to not seriously reevaluate whether I can recognize something is likely important, fail to find anything useful in itIn post 338, Datisi wrote:and i'm not falling for that abrasive emotional fit., and get absolutely infuriated that I am being accused both of not trying and that it is obviously scummy that I did not attempt to paint that failure on my end as either +town or +scum for you.TWICE-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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Is this the only possibility you see here, mind of great human sensitivity, self-awareness, and nuance?In post 346, unwnd wrote:So why do you get heated at the prospectoof ssomeone sussing you out-
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Exactly one of two boxes contains a cookie.In post 347, unwnd wrote:Also i said i believe you two have one, not that you're partners lol
So not sure where casual connection comes into play
If the first box is empty, the second one contains...?
If the second box is empty, the first one contains...?-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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We also shovel glue, if we're keeping track of all of our habits.In post 350, unwnd wrote:Of course the league player would be passive-aggressive-
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Faker Mafia Scum
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This is the first time you have said this about Datisi, I believe. It might be helpful both to myself, to understand you, and to yourself, to chew more deeply and challenge yourself, to maybe flesh out your scumread on me more fully than "seems unnatural"In post 354, unwnd wrote:I have reasons to suspect you both but don't believe you are partners-
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I don't actually fully expect you to prove the two strict causal connections required, but something more substantial would go a lot further. Perhaps counterintuitively, elaborating on the scumread with something more concrete might also assist you even in a world where I don't have to sort you and am just mafia!-
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