Micro 1013: IMoA [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Iconeum

Hey all. It’s good to be here.

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m back. I’ll read and provide some thoughts. It’s been a busy weekend haha

[Andresvmb]

Was busy today.

This game got serious fast so I'm gonna have to read it a few times to process it and not at 2am.

Ok.

@Andresvmb
@S_S

Why the inactivity?
I’ll forgive Iconeum since i think he’s always V/LA on weekends, but i’d expect a lot more posts from Andres at least.

Not sure I understand this post when I clearly said I wasn’t going to be active yesterday I believe. Or maybe I didn’t post it here but whatever.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t mean to quote the first post.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Iconeum

Hey all. It’s good to be here.

Have you flaked or was the joy of being here overwhelming?

The joy was overwhelming.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I think is trying to make a presence but failing miserably, unlikely that's AI, more from him would be appreciated.

I’m not trying to make a presence. If I’m being totally honest, I fell asleep reading this game because a lot of you sound like assholes haha and I didn’t feel like fighting anyone.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Iconeum

Just to clarify that my vote is no longer an RVS placeholder.

[Andresvmb]

I think Sigmund is Town. I heavily dislike that they pushed Norwee out of the game, but Norwee and I have historically clashed but still, that was tough to read. I will believe the meta claims that Norwee would not get so easily upset as Scum and rage quit - I also think that’s unlikely and from my experience with them they react differently when under pressure and not Town (I played against them when they were SK).

[Andresvmb]

ta vera gave me positive vibes to start. I actually liked 65 (seemed like a Townie admission to me). And Something_Smart did something I do a lot as Town actually which is to react to posts about you to start because it’s the only thing you’re sure about. I can’t say I SR it. I’ll be paying close attention but I can’t say I understand some of the pressure there. It feels overdone. Oh you reacted only to posts about you when you weren’t paying close attention? Must be Scum. Like that train of thought seems... kind of silly to me.

[Andresvmb]

I guess NSG can be Town for now given the slot they replaced into. Hi NSG, it’s been a while.

[Andresvmb]

And UneveN feels like Town to me too. So that leaves Ico, VFP, and Moongrass. Which explains my vote.

[Andresvmb]

I know, I’m being somewhat vague about how I feel about players but I don’t know that I have much to say yet. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m a bit of a slow starter. And I already know my early reads are bad so there’s that too.

[Andresvmb]

I think Sigmund is onto something!

Looking back, I was pinged by this actually. So, VFP seems like a decent vote but they’re away for now so I won’t push it too hard.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: sigmund
hey!!

Also, this is such an easy vote it's laughable.

This, by Moongrass though, is correct. I would agree that vote was bad.

[Andresvmb]

Andre is there anything in particular that made you choose Iconeum? Any kind of read there at all?

Call it gut more than anything.

And I don’t have a solid read of you, but I mean positively overall. I wouldn’t have voted you there.

[Andresvmb]

why is Moongrass, who is calling an obvious RVS vote as 'easy' and 'laughable', correct?

This is, uhm, nonsensical. That vote was clearly not RVS, and reeked of opportunism. Which is why I called the criticism correct.

[Andresvmb]

yo andres wanna brawl a bit?

No I don’t. Last time I had you dead to rights as Scum and you got away because you made others think that because you were willing to engage in spirited fights that you couldn’t possibly be Scum. And then of course your clever fake Claim got you through the Endgame.

Claiming that all of your analysis is going to be surface level is Scummy - I know you can do a lot better than that.

[Andresvmb]

And again, that vote wasn’t RVS. Not entirely. It’s clear a disagreement is developing between two players at that stage - jumping in between them to stoke the fire a little bit isn’t the Townie thing to do in my view.

[Andresvmb]

that statement isn't scummy
it's also not townie

it's a factual statement

nothing more or less, why you wanna fight me over that?

actually, your reluctance to talk to me is pingy

The reason it’s Scummy is because you’re in advance signaling that you’ll be behind Town executions and nobody can fault you for that. That’s why. If I came out and said forgive me but I’m a bad player so if I tunnel Town don’t read into it, you should be suspicious of my intentions. If you see me trying and I get stuff wrong that’s one thing. Openly saying I’m going to suck don’t read into it, I don’t get positive vibes out of that. It’s pretty simple.

[Andresvmb]

And again, that vote wasn’t RVS. Not entirely. It’s clear a disagreement is developing between two players at that stage - jumping in between them to stoke the fire a little bit isn’t the Townie thing to do in my view.

ok i fact checked this

it's not true

their vote was the first one on Sigmund, so not piling on or stoking or anything

Piling onto one side of a heated argument is stoking. I’m sorry you see it differently. I’m clearly not “lying”. That’s just a silly take. Being the first vote is not indicative of anything at all.

[Andresvmb]

Not in that circumstance at least.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I think is trying to make a presence but failing miserably, unlikely that's AI, more from him would be appreciated.

I’m not trying to make a presence. If I’m being totally honest, I fell asleep reading this game because a lot of you sound like assholes haha and I didn’t feel like fighting anyone.

i'm not an asshole

I didn’t directly call you an asshole and if you feel attacked I think that says more about you than me haha

[Andresvmb]

And UneveN feels like Town to me too. So that leaves Ico, VFP, and Moongrass. Which explains my vote.

that doesn't explain your vote. it only explains why you narrowed it down to those three. why did you pick ico?

I did say it was gut. I don’t have a better explanation yet.

[Andresvmb]

I’m sticking to my vote for now.

[Andresvmb]

And to whoever said that Ico is too in your face to be Scum - go read a Scum game of Ico’s before you reach that conclusion.

[Andresvmb]

I mean, a Scum pool made up of the two players that are voting you is... bad to say the least.

Anyway, I’m busy during the day. I’ll be back tonight.

[Andresvmb]

i really don't remember you being so oblivious, andres

Meh you make me want to ignore you and perhaps that’s the point.

[Andresvmb]

funnily enough i think that i agree mostly with 543, i think mine is {nsg, uneven, ta vera, SS, sigmund}

NSG I’m not going to lie - I think this is somewhat of a crappy coalition. I don’t know that I would have S_S as high as you do, or nearly enough to include in a “coalition”. And I’m also a bit confused as to why you seem so intent to misread some of my thinking, but that’s a bit self-centered I suppose.

[Andresvmb]

UneveN and Sigmund are Town though - we agree there. My position hasn’t changed there.

[Andresvmb]

In post 648, UneveN wrote:
In post 647, northsidegal wrote:
andres is a bit of a surprising inclusion.

I liked his content with regards to Iconeum.

fair. i can even see where you're coming from and maybe even agree, actually.

You agree with how I’m looking at Iconeum, but you’re surprised another player might include me in their Town pool? I just didn’t get that at all.

[Andresvmb]

Instead of “misreading my thinking” I suppose I should have said “thought my contributions were relevant and positive, but don’t think I deserve to be TR”. Particularly over S_S who I felt shied away from a fight with Sigmund in a rather timid and somewhat Scummy way. If I may say so. Like Sigmund’s points around that I felt were spot on.

[Andresvmb]

I still like the idea of an Andre Ico scum theatre team...but I know this is my bias for non-boring teams.
@Uneven what about those interactions makes Andre seem towny to you?

Look I’ll give it to you straight - if Ico and I were aligned, I let Ico take on a lot of heat, push people loudly, and stay out of it. Knowing how they play as both alignments, I know they like to get down and dirty as Scum, and can be super loud and convincing as Town. I see no need in trying to fake a fight D1 with them unless I really felt there was a need. And since the wagon is mostly being pushed by me, what need is there?

[Andresvmb]

you're confusing the chronology there. i was confused uneven included you, uneven gave the reason, then i said that i agreed that your progression on iconeum was good. this is also—to my memory—the only instance that i've even really talked about you or your contributions, so i don't think there's anything else you could possibly be referring to in 660 when you say i thought your contributions were good but not worthy of being townread than this.

Perhaps that me reading backwards when catching up. But I’ll say this - I think you should be able to read me properly here. Do you think I’m Scum?

[Andresvmb]

I still like the idea of an Andre Ico scum theatre team...but I know this is my bias for non-boring teams.
@Uneven what about those interactions makes Andre seem towny to you?

Look I’ll give it to you straight - if Ico and I were aligned, I let Ico take on a lot of heat, push people loudly, and stay out of it. Knowing how they play as both alignments, I know they like to get down and dirty as Scum, and can be super loud and convincing as Town. I see no need in trying to fake a fight D1 with them unless I really felt there was a need. And since the wagon is mostly being pushed by me, what need is there?

And to back this up, look at Ico’s reaction once I start SR’ing their slot (they were Scum): viewtopic.php?p=12680887#p12680887. They’re perfectly happy to engage in fights and go hard against folks pushing their slot. Just keep that in mind.

[Andresvmb]

let me answer your question with a few questions, hopefully this isn't annoying.

do you have some unique confidence that i should be able to read you, or is that more of a general statement of faith in my ability (as well as my alignment)? if it's the first, why? as i said elsewhere, i think you said we played together before but i can't seem to recall or find whatever game that might have been.

do you think that i scumread you?

We played a game back in 2018 that I distinctly remember. Here: https://forum.mafia451.com/t/chosen-gam ... =andresvmb. You were somewhat lurky but read me correctly.

And yes, from how you’ve approached me, I think you SR me. I would rather you just stated it either way.

[Andresvmb]

do you think that you have objectively played in a towny manner this game or have otherwise specifically played your towngame? if so, what parts of your play this game so far characterizes that?

I haven’t been all that Towny perhaps, but I do think there’s some hallmarks of my Town play. If you see me care somewhat intensely about how folks are reading me, then yeah, that’s Town me. Go cross-check with other games, since I don’t expect to be taken at face value here when you aren’t sure of my alignment.

[Andresvmb]

NSG I’m not going to lie

Look I’ll give it to you straight

I’ve tried minimizing the amount of times I use words like this, but for some reason I haven’t been able to. I find myself saying “to be honest” a lot in games and it’s not particularly helpful.

[Andresvmb]

As a disclaimer I have not seen Ico scum though.

Can someone please link an Ico scum game?

I just did on this page btw.

[Andresvmb]

I just re-read the whole game - I am more confused about people’s alignments than I was before hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Gun to head, I would blow up {Something_Smart, VFP}. I think Ico and to a lesser extent ta vera could be Scum, and I’m TR’ing everyone else. I think Moongrass cares almost too much about how they’re being read, and is aggressively fighting their execution but is that just Scummy instinct? I don’t know. I don’t think so? My read of NSG is soft too to be totally honest.

[Andresvmb]

Like I was hoping I would re-read and I would come out thinking yeah Iconeum is Scum that’s absolutely right. And I just... don’t.

[Andresvmb]

Sigh this game is going to be hard I think.

[Andresvmb]

I'm having trouble following the thread of this game, that's definitely true. Not totally unhappy with my reads though. (Ta vera and nsg as townreads, Sigmund and Moongrass as townleans.)

And like I’m not offended by this at all. I can see a perspective where this makes a lot of sense. And to some extent, S_S feels lost?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: VFP

[Andresvmb]

I still like the idea of an Andre Ico scum theatre team...but I know this is my bias for non-boring teams.
@Uneven what about those interactions makes Andre seem towny to you?

Look I’ll give it to you straight - if Ico and I were aligned, I let Ico take on a lot of heat, push people loudly, and stay out of it. Knowing how they play as both alignments, I know they like to get down and dirty as Scum, and can be super loud and convincing as Town. I see no need in trying to fake a fight D1 with them unless I really felt there was a need. And since the wagon is mostly being pushed by me, what need is there?

I like your thoughts in SS - do you think an SS/Ico team is possible?

I don’t know. I wouldn’t put this game past Ico as Scum, but I’m not feeling it anymore. I will try and give this game maybe a careful third re-read and see if anything in particular strikes me as worth pursuing. I was in the middle of reading VFP’s ISO yesterday and I fell asleep.

[Andresvmb]

why is an RVS vote bad?

It wasn't an RVS vote. Her RVS vote was on me. Votes after content are usually for a reason and thus are not random.

also why are you answering for andres?

I'm defending myself from your ignorant slander. If you're going to call my play out as terrible, I'm obligated to call the kettle black.

How is this not somewhat aggressive? Hahaha

[Andresvmb]

^in response to 691.

[Andresvmb]

I was in the middle of reading VFP’s ISO yesterday and I fell asleep.

So you voted VFP for being boring?

No. That was more a point of me literally not delved deep enough into VFP so take my vote as provisional, not VFP being boring haha

[Andresvmb]

I think Moongrass cares almost too much about how they’re being read, and is aggressively fighting their execution but is that just Scummy instinct? I don’t know. I don’t think so?

Was this intended to be an explanation of why you townread Moongrass? Or is there another reason?

Yeah I don’t know I find Moongrass to be too active and at times aggressive and probing for them to be Scum. At least it’s not the feeling I’m getting.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll come back tonight for sure. I have some stuff to take care of but I’ll definitely catch up.

[Andresvmb]

Apologies - something came up. I’ll take a look later today.

Also, Memorial Day Weekend should be a consideration here no? Some of us have things going on...

[Andresvmb]

I like andres for town cuz he sounds like a pissed off teenager

Hahaha I wish I was young again, I’ll say that much. I think I’m just generally pissed off.

@sang froid I guess I would ask you this - what makes you think I should have rock solid reads so early in the game? What I’ve found is that in smaller games, finding Scum is harder, not easier. Like in any scenario with <3 Scum, the people playing Scum can easily play independently, and almost not coordinate day play at all. Which means you have to find people individually. In larger games, this is clearly not true, and players leave all kinds of clues because they defend/bus their Partners and take risks as a collective much more.

[Andresvmb]

It's possible that Andre provides a game to read that they're emulating here as scum, but that seems a little far fetched.

And where did this go? You’ve been reading me as Town most of the game and now you want to blow me up without me actually being that present.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Iconeum

Hey all. It’s good to be here.

If I'm right about Andre, consider this proof that the "greetings tell" is very much alive.

Nah you’re just wrong and laughably so.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know that I care enough about this game to really defend myself to be totally honest.

I’m Town Neighbor. My Neighbor is NSG.

[Andresvmb]

And the problem really is that you’re looking for really detailed cases when it isn’t warranted. I’ve given you my general vibes about most of the players. What you do with that is up to you. If you want to say I’ve played subpar, yeah probably.

[Andresvmb]

Although why would you be concerned about NSG voting you if you are neighbours? It doesn't make sense to me.

You would have to read our interactions to understand I think.

[Andresvmb]

Anything noteworthy happen in the neighborhood?

Not really? NSG is using it a bit like a personal notes PT but I don’t think there’s much there that NSG hasn’t shared with the group. And it’s been relatively quiet to be totally honest, since I don’t know if I can trust NSG.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway. If I get a chance to reread I’ll do that otherwise I think I’ll stay a bit at the margins for now. I don’t think I’ve been focused enough to give solid opinions just yet.

[Andresvmb]

Still plausible scum.
Outting NSG as a neibour too is pretty scummy.

Andre can't claim anything else as scum here though so I don't doubt the Neibour part of the claim.

You wanted a Claim, and when I give you a claim, you think it’s Scummy?

Part claiming is dumb. Then what you would do is assume that I’m hiding my neighbor because they’re my Scum buddy or some other nonsense. Either ask for a Claim and live with the consequences when you get it, or kindly fuck off.

[Andresvmb]

I know you don't care much about this game Andre, but out of the votes that came onto you today which ones would be the most suspicious to you?

It’s not that I don’t care - I haven’t had time. Honestly I usually pour a lot of effort into every game I play. It’s just been a really busy few weeks for me IRL. It’s across the board not just here that I’ve been unfocused. It happens real life interferes.

[Andresvmb]

Last Scum we think is UneveN.

@NSG feel free to provide your thoughts.

I would go UneveN, Ico. If the game is for some reason not over, then maybe consider NSG haha but that’s for worse case scenario.

[Andresvmb]

I nailed this game on my first read. I shall stop saying that my early reads are bad - sometimes they’re not.

[Andresvmb]

Good job Town, we nailed it.

@Mod, thank you!

[Andresvmb]

A Town sweep after some painful games feels really good.

[Andresvmb]

And UneveN feels like Town to me too. So that leaves Ico, VFP, and Moongrass. Which explains my vote.

I think you nailed it on your first read.

Yeah and it almost got me killed! I also only voted both Scum. I need to use the emoji of the face with sunglasses.



This is an ego booster of a game. And it’s my... 18th Town game in a row!

[Andresvmb]

Also, NSG’s thinking process in our hood is a great read. Thoroughly recommend. Talk about a good player.