Nomic II - Moratorium Wins!!!

[Moratorium]

*cross fingers*

Please no doubleposting rules.

/in

[Moratorium]

Man I'm going to posit soooo many mandatory lurking rules...

Personally, I'm hoping this game can become something a little more original and complex than "whoever can maintain a 48 hour posting rate wins" or "whoever can sandwich posts the most wins". Nomic gets fun when the best or most original rules manipulator is the one that gets rewarded. Winning because you voted yes on enough "Let's vote Lowell out of the game" proposals is... meh.

[Moratorium]

I think rules should be posted in thread except rather than they are numbered they are named.

Doesn't address edits...

[Moratorium]

It's about whatever we decide it's about.

The first Nomic had me reciting poetry.

I was backup moderator at the time.

[Moratorium]

Good luck, everyone.

[Moratorium]

I've put forth a series of proposals to try and define a framework that allows play without the "let's vote out so and so" issues from Nomic I. I've purposefully made it very open-ended, allowing for ease of additions and modifications. I'll let you all read it for yourself before making any additional comments.

I hope everyone will find my overall idea interesting, and would be very much willing to discuss any issues or revisions that anyone thinks to bring up.

[Moratorium]

No to P16 and P19

, I don't believe imposing proposal restrictions will help anyone in the future. I do apologize if you feel that I introduced too many rules at one time, and assure everyone that it was a one time event just to establish some sort of initial ruleset.

Yes to P18

, Private communications would make this game fun (Imagine Corporate alliances, mergers, takeovers, who knows).

Game of Corporations -> Chief Financial Officer: The Chief Financial Officer (CFO) shall be responsible for maintaining all details related to the Game of Corporations as proposed by CEO Moratorium. This shall include, but not be limited to, currency ($$$), corporation name, chief officer's title, commodities, and such. This data shall be kept up-to-date as much as possible, with no less than one update per 3 calendar days. In recognition for this service, the CFO shall receive a wage of 10 $$$ every three calendar days. If a post is not made within the 3 calendar day limit, the corporation of the CFO is subject to a Grade 2 Offense. The first CFO shall be CEO Moratorium. A new CFO can be elected by a 50%+1 vote.

I need some clarification on this proposal before voting.

Is this a proposal to grant one of the 18 proposed CEO's a new responsibility? Or all of them?

Are you thinking that I'm proposing there only be 1 corporation? I'm not, I'm saying that each player gets to incorporate seperately. One of the main reasons I came up with this was to have an excuse to prevent rules that eliminate players, and the first thing I thought about was the immunity that incorporation offers to private individuals.

That's doesn't prevent the development of multi-player corporations later, but I'm just saying that's not what I'm proposing right now.

Anyways, I'm obviously confused, please help me.

[Moratorium]

Edited blockquote to say P17 instead of P18, as it should be.

[Moratorium]

No to P15

(no new players) until some some sort of win condition is established.

[Moratorium]

I debated between proposing a date-in-time victory vs. a dollar-amount victory, and couldn't really figure out an appropriate dollar amount without knowing beforehand how players made money and how quickly.

Hence the date-in-time version.

[Moratorium]

I like the tasks idea, and will probably vote yes for it.

My money-making idea is P11, where corporations basically becomes stores for players to buy commodities to use on each other or on themselves or whatever. I purposefully didn't propose any commodities myself.

These were the notes I jotted down for commodities:

- Establish stores that sell goods that grant in-game abilities
- Vehicles
- First Aid
- Weapons
- Cellphones?
- Superhero abilities store?
- Religious artifacts?

Consider that brainstorming.

[Moratorium]

Ask questions, I'll be glad to answer if it's for any of my proposals.

[Moratorium]

I'll refrain from voting on P20 and P21 until I see how the wind blows with everyone else.

Yes to P22

Takes Juls long enough to do votecount updates already

For P23, the Task object, I notice that it specifies that Commodities can be a reward, but it doesn't specify what commodity, or where that commodity comes from. Are these commodities from the player who proposes the task? Or do they appear out of the void? Can someone propose a task and reward with a commodity that someone else sells?

No to P24

This should be in a proposal that fully explains the win condition, i.e. How does one become the King of Nomic.

For P25, Third arm, what happens if someone fails to describe what they are doing with their third arm? As proposed, the answer would be "nothing".

P26, It's Kinda Common, again what happens if someone breaks the rule? It's not specified as proposed.

No to P27

As proposed, "all nays" means every nay in the game, by every player. I'd say yes to this rule if it was changed to say "all nays by the dying player" etc...

[Moratorium]

I swear if all that corp mumbo jumbo comes into effect I'm out of here. That is just plain confusing.

You probably wouldn't like Agora Nomic then.

Agora started on 30 June 1993, and celebrates its birthday on 30 June each year (rule 1727). Agora is the longest-running nomic known. Agora's 15-year history includes over 5800 legislative proposals (rule 106), the enactment (rule 105) of about a thousand rules (rule 2141), almost as many repeals, and over 2200 judicial cases (rule 991).

[Moratorium]

Rawr.

[Moratorium]

P7 has an interesting appendage at the end - you ought to define 'profit' in some sense, since I can think of a couple different possible interpretations. Specifically, are we talking profit as in making $$$, or are we talking receiving some benefit, tangible or otherwise? It makes a difference, and it maybe hard to determine at the time of an act.

I see what you mean. I'd be willing to either leave it up to the mod as a judgment call, or clarify it. Either way. If it fails as a proposal, there's another proposal from Rhinox that interprets dissolution as player loss, so I'm waiting to see how the majority wants to play it.

P8 is good, except it doesn't address any assets other than current balance (call it 'cash on hand'). If I've got a dozen widgets, and 200 $$$ in the Bank, they should count for something, right?

I made the proposal so that fines are paid with liquid cash on hand, as in if I were an apple orchard farmer, I don't think my local government would be too happy with me paying my taxes in bushels of apples. If someone else wants to put a proposal together to allow commodities to be liquidated somehow, maybe at a discount, I'd probably vote yes on it.

P10 sets a time limit, which is generally good, but I'm curious about the dissolution clause - what was the purpose of that, if there's already a victory condition?

I was looking to create an "ultimate penalty" that was just shy of player death, in this case removal of all assets (cash/loans/commodities/whatever), to allow players to keep playing if they so desired, but at a significant penalty. In a game where a driving factor is player-run stores, a large base of customers is probably better for the game than a small one.

P11 has potential; I'm debating it with myself.

Well, I'm hoping that people are willing to accept several different mechanics with which to "advance" in the game. So player-run stores, Rhinox's "Tasks", little sub-games for prizes, theft, subterfuge, lotteries, auction houses, stock markets, scams, jobs with salaries, as far as I'm concerned whatever anyone can think of and propose as means to make money is fair game and just adds a new level of interesting.

[Moratorium]

Yes to P28

[Moratorium]

Yay - P23, P32, P34, P35

Nay - P17, P20, P21, P25, P26, P29, P30, P31, P33, P36

[Moratorium]

Let's get more YAYs on 28, please, it'll make things simpler.

How, are you planning on an alliance?

[Moratorium]

Proposals self-destruct after a week regardless.

I still voted yes.

[Moratorium]

Yes to P38, P39, P41, P42

No to P37, P40

[Moratorium]

Switching

P38 to Nay

[Moratorium]

Proposal: The Farside22 Complexity Reduction Strategem and Mitigated Rule Detail Document.

Henceforth, Bunnies. <3

====================

I submitted the above, and the mod tells me it's unenforceable. :/

[Moratorium]

Yes: P45, P48, P52, P53, P56, P57, P58, P59

No: P43, P44, P46, P47, P49, P50, P51, P54, P55, P61

A few comments:

P55: There's no stipulation as to how many times this can be used (I hereby gavel 12 times on proposal 99 which states I automatically win, yay!).

P61: Anyone who isn't in the lead in money right now shouldn't be voting yes to give everyone money if they are truly playing to win.

Also, the commodities types that dizardin is proposing is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind, so if anyone was confused about commodities in general, see if you can come up with an interesting power or ability that you'd want to give to a commodity that you then can sell to other people.

And finally, we're getting close to the 25 maximum rules limit.

[Moratorium]

What's the plan with this grid?

[Moratorium]

Changing my vote:

Yes to P33

(unlimited rules instead of 25 only)

[Moratorium]

No to censuring dizardin and moratorium

[Moratorium]

New Job Title: Pimp Daddy

[Moratorium]

Yes to P63, P69, P70

No to P62, P64, P71, P72, P73

[Moratorium]

Yes to 73

[Moratorium]

Is the smiley included?

Btw, remind me never to mention you by name.

[Moratorium]

Meh, I thought I'd be a stickler about it, but as it turns out, I don't really care if you end up using your alt by mistake. Your name's in it, it's obvious, case closed.

Yes to P62

[Moratorium]

Rules! Yay!

[Moratorium]

Mod: Please let us know what happens currently if there are 25 rules, and a 26th rule is passed.

[Moratorium]

Uh, ok, how about prodding these four people?

Drench- P30, P31, P32, P35, P37, P38, P43, P44, P45, P48, P49, P50, P54, P55, P56, P57, P58, P59, P60, P61, P62, P63, P66, P67, P68, P70, P71, P72, P73, P74,

xelada- P30, P31, P32, P35, P37, P43, P44, P45, P48, P49, P50, P54, P55, P56, P57, P58, P59, P60, P61, P62, P63, P66, P67, P68, P70, P71, P72, P73, P74,

Perpetuum- P43, P44, P45, P48, P49, P50, P54, P55, P56, P57, P58, P59, P60, P61, P62, P63, P66, P67, P68, P70, P71, P72, P73, P74,

ortolan- P30, P31, P32, P35, P37, P38, P43, P44, P45, P48, P49, P50, P54, P55, P56, P57, P58, P59, P60, P61, P62, P63, P66, P67, P68, P70, P71, P72, P73, P74,

[Moratorium]

I will proxy my vote to OFMIC dizardin.

[Moratorium]

If you believe the penalty for not using someone's title is too harsh, vote Yes on P74, to change it to a simple Grade 1 offense.

And if someone wants to put a proposal in to override the current penalties preventing new proposals from certain people, I wouldn't complain to that either.

To be honest, the only reason I submitted that "you must use a person's title" rule was to show how the violations mechanic could be used. I really didn't think it would suddenly become the CENTRAL GAME CHANGING MECHANIC.

More proposals please.

We still need a win condition.

We still need to know what the grid is for.

We still need tasks.

We still need commodities to sell.

[Moratorium]

No one in particular.

[Moratorium]

It's clear that if I dont' do anything I'll win.

[Moratorium]

I'm obviously very bad at this.

[Moratorium]

New Job Title: Who obviously can't follow his own dumb rules

[Moratorium]

It doesn't appear anyone wants to let anyone else hold the rights to sell any commodities.

[Moratorium]

Is there a proposal in to reset the game somehow yet?

[Moratorium]

Vote to Reset

[Moratorium]

/cry

[Moratorium]

End proxying

Yes to 82

[Moratorium]

Probably should submit something that repeals all proposals as well as rules.

[Moratorium]

...except 82...

[Moratorium]

I'm officially sponsoring Lunar_Tick.

Reasons for why you should allow Lunar_Tick to play:

- He smells good.
- Rearrange the letters in his name and you get "Can It Lurk". I'll bet the answer is no!
- There aren't any ticks on the moon! See, that's the kind of irreverent humor you can come to expect out of this guy! Hilarious!
- Lunar_Tick is an important part of this healthy breakfast.

So please. For the children. Vote yes.. I mean.. uh.. Yay... Yae? to this propos... wait, this isn't... Vote I agree to allow Lunar_Tick to possibly later agree to join in these.. um...

How does this sponsoring thing work anyway?

[Moratorium]

Yessir to Lunar_Tick

[Moratorium]

Acting as Lunar_Tick's intermediary:

Lunar_Tick would like you to know, Cool. He also wishes for me to please state that if he is added to the game he will vote yay to repeal all previous rules. And then he thanken's me.

These people haven't yet voted for Proposal 82.

Drunch- P74, P81, P82,
popsofdallas- P82,
Swortolan- P74, P81, P82,
Mypetneedstuums- P74, P81, P82,
Unpronunceable Chinese Name- P82,
Flintstonesguy- P82,

(edited because I included names that shouldn't have been included.)

[Moratorium]

^^

vote yes to 82 please

[Moratorium]

Lowell Lowell Lowell Lowell Lowell Loweeeellllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moratorium]

I'm not going to submit any initial proposals this time, I'll let a bit of a framework develop by others before jumping in.

[Moratorium]

Yay to all

I don't see any of these rules making it harder for me to win more so than anyone else, so go for it.

That's probably going to be my philosophy from here on out.

I'll try anything.

[Moratorium]

Yes to all

[Moratorium]

Also, all these games are nice, but everyone needs some $$$ before we can play. That means we should also settle on a win condition.

Change your votes on P87 and P88 to Yes, then.

If you don't like those particular conditions, change them later. But at least then the game will have a win condition of some sort, and people will have an incentive to play. Make the challenge be changing the win condition, not the initial creation of one.

[Moratorium]

Lunar_Tick's rules are awesome. Curious as to what the purpose of the supreme ruler and minsters will be. Maybe I should propose a role for one of them.

yes to 103 through 110

I also like the yabbaguy games proposals. I'll say yes to them, (

yes to 111 and 112

) although I'll point out that there doesn't seem to be any limitations on how often players can play a game, so if you are giving the winner and loser both money, and we have a set money win condition, all two players have to do is play each other a thousand times or whatever and eventually someone will breach the win condition.

We might want to have a rule that prevents a player from playing a particular game more than X times per Y time period.

Also changing vote on the other version of RPS:

No to 99

[Moratorium]

No to P102

[Moratorium]

Yes to 113 through 122

No to 123

Make the leaderboard public knowledge, I say.

[Moratorium]

Do we want to instigate a proposal that gets rid of inactive players?

Nomic I had something where if you didn't post every 72 hours you were kicked out, I'm thinking more along the lines of 2 weeks just to get rid of people who have obviously quit playing.

[Moratorium]

Since there's a "no player can be removed" rule that's near passing, I proposed a rule to put any player that doesn't post for 2 weeks on a "Hiatus List", effectively removing them from the game for the purposes of voting.

[Moratorium]

Ok... another win condition fails.

Let's discuss this so we can get something passed.

What kind of win condition does everyone want?

- Time-based?
- Reach a certain score/money amount?
- Last man standing?
- First to satisfy a particular list of conditions?

We have to come to some sort of concensus, otherwise we're just proposing rules and more rules that essentially don't go anywhere.

I'm happy with setting a monetary win condition (reach X dollars first), and then if people want to make changes to that later, great! But we need to figure this out, otherwise we're all just playing in a giant sandbox.

[Moratorium]

Another good way to do last man standing in a game where new money is continually added to the game is to eliminate the player with the smallest balance at regular time intervals. I think this might be the best compromise... what do you guys think?

Proposal: Life Support

You suddenly realize that you are playing this game of Nomic underwater! Oh no! How are you going to breathe? You can hold your breath for a supernaturally long time, but not forever! Luckily, there's a store here, "Mr. Breezy's Underwater Discount Oxygen Store", that sells oxygen! You can purchase a canister for X dollars, allowing you to survive in this game for another Y days/weeks. But if you ever run out of money to pay for these canisters, you're as good as dead! Better make some cash!

How's that? Kind of a reverse last man standing that uses money.

[Moratorium]

How about X = 200$ and Y = 1 week?

We can change these numbers later if need be...

[Moratorium]

No to 124 through 127

[Moratorium]

no on 129. Unnecessary.

Made this proposal because there's currently no mechanic that prevents you from accumulating wealth or points or whatever even if you're not around. So technically, someone could feasibly win the game even if they weren't actively playing it.

Even if the current ruleset doesn't immediately show how this is possible, the current ruleset will change.

[Moratorium]

can someone explain to me what the rule 8 grid does, exactly?

As I read it:

- With the current ruleset, not a heck of a lot.

- With the proposed ruleset, the intent appears to be a function of adding value to particular squares based on positioning, so that the payout on particular squares increases based on adjecent squares, making it somewhat like a more-than-2-player connect-four type of game. Only, I don't think the proposed rules are complete, and I don't actually see how someone makes profit yet.

[Moratorium]

yes

[Moratorium]

no on 130 through 133

[Moratorium]

Still need an income method, ANY income method. And a win condition.

I still think we should just accept any win condition that comes along, and modify it later if need be. We need an incentive.

[Moratorium]

Blackberry, make your objection official so the judges panel can make a decision.

See Golden Rule 11.

[Moratorium]

Again, I think we should just set an arbitrary win condition, something simple, and then if someone comes up with something more interesting later, or if the game condition forced people to consider revising it to ensure someone didn't win, make the proposal then.

Just saying something like "First to reach 25,000 $$$ wins" is a perfect example of that. If one individual raced out way ahead and started getting close, everyone else would have an incentive to change the win condition. If the game remained competitive, no one would have any incentive to change it.

All these no votes on various win conditions for "I don't really like that idea" reasons, I feel, are misunderstanding the concept of Nomic.

[Moratorium]

Just havn't looked at the latest proposals yet. Including 136.

[Moratorium]

No to 135

Yes to 136, 137

[Moratorium]

Meh, if anything, me being married to Juls means I'll have most rulings go against me automatically.

[Moratorium]

Yes to 138, 139

[Moratorium]

I'll be your exchange partner, if you'd like, Lunar_Tick.

[Moratorium]

PM submitted for money transfer.

[Moratorium]

Yes to 140, 141, 142

and... eeeehhhhh tough one....

sure

Yes to 143

[Moratorium]

100$$$ sent to Lunar_Tick

[Moratorium]

No to P145

Yes to P146, 147, 148, 149

[Moratorium]

No to 147

I'm dumb and misread.

[Moratorium]

Grid was a devious plot to deplete players of money for no reason.

[Moratorium]

Yes to P150

No to P151

[Moratorium]

Yes to P152, P153, P154, P155, P156, P158, P159

No to P160

[Moratorium]

Another 100$$$ sent to Lunar_Tick.

[Moratorium]

No to P161

Yes to P162, P163, P164, P165

[Moratorium]

sent another 100$$$ to Lunar_Tick.

[Moratorium]

Yay to P166

[Moratorium]

Changed my mind.

No to P166

[Moratorium]

Yay to P167

No to P168

10% isn't enough.

Yes to P169

The real point of this rule is to make Rule 15 a silver rule. As long as the marketplace is in effect, with kill/save items, we will never get to a billion NomicBucks.

Yes to P170

Mora to Juls just now: "Are you going to run a Nomic III?" Juls: "Probably."

No to P171

If re-proposed later when you don't have a bunch of proposals in the queue, I would probably vote yes.

Yes to P172

Accepting this now, even while I hope that P171 fails now, so that you re-propose P171 later by itself.

No to P173

No free money, it seems like you are trying to get everyone to buy powers for 2500$$$, but it would probably just result in buying marketplace items for most people. No free rides.

Yes to P174

Anything that promotes player activity is good.

Yes to P175

If all players are negative balance, something is wrong, but this win condition is fine by me.

No to P176

I'm not sure I like those amounts, everyone could put out several 20% steal attempts, make a quick 10K $$$ or whatever, buy up a bunch of kill items and put out several fast kill attempts. Just a big slaughterhouse effect, no real strategy there. I'd probably say yes to this if the steal amounts were lowered.

No to P177

Same deal, I'd say yes to this if the reward was lowered. And probably best not to ask questions in your proposals, otherwise it means nothing as a rule.

Yes to P178, P179

More incentive to re-propose P176 later. But don't do P176 again at the same time as P171, or I'd probably say no again.

[Moratorium]

P170: Nay and Protest to Panel. Nomic III will be a completely separate game, and I don't think it is in the bounds of possibility to have a rule carry over remotely from another version of the game.
If the rule fails, I'll retract the protest.

The bounds of possibility? P170 doesn't break any current golden, silver, or player rule. That is the entire extent of what is necessary for a proposal to be "in the bounds of possibility", as far as I'm concerned.

[Moratorium]

Hell, even if it DID break a rule, all that would do is set up a contradiction, which is STILL in the "bounds of possibility" for Nomic.

I don't get why this is a protest, seems more like a "I don't like this idea" response, protesting seems more something reserved for when a mod judgement is made and you deem it unfair or something of that nature.

I may have to consider proposing a new rule like "yabbaguy must now wear an italian sausage necklace for the remainder of the game with daily photographed proof", just as a proof of concept on the "bounds of possibility".

[Moratorium]

Unverifiable.

Putting aside for a moment that it was, you know, farce, all I stated was that you put up a daily photograph.. but anyways...

Once Nomic III starts,

I don't think...

...which is my argument essentially, that you've invoked a new property to the game of Nomic II (the "No bridging of rules to other games" property") that did not previously exist as your argument against consideration of the ruling. If we're disputing the literal interpretation of rules, and that you are one to accept the literal interpretation of rules, I'm saying you've invoked this "No Bridging" concept out of thin air, essentially because you don't like it.

And seeing as essentially you don't like the rule, you vote No. Not prevent everyone else from voting yes.

I disagree with the moderator decision that the rule should be considered.

I think this is an abuse of GR11, because

anyone, at anytime

, can protest any rule that they want abolished, based solely on "I don't like this rule." I don't think protesting the moderator simply putting a proposal onto the proposal board is a valid tactic, and will be proposing a new rule stating as such.

[Moratorium]

Meh, I see the "one post to protest" thing as a "what the judges will consider when rendering their verdict" kinda thing...

More in-thread debate leads to a better game, imo.

[Moratorium]

To me, "No Bridging" isn't even a rule, it's a simple fact and fate. Nomic III is not the same game as Nomic II, and there's really no verifiable way to make sure that the mod does this, seeing as the would-be rule for this will be deleted upon the startup of Nomic III.

I promise to tell my 2-year old to wake up mommy every morning by tickling her for as long as the Nomic III game exists without the Nomic II winner getting the benefits of this rule if it comes into play. And she'll do it, oh yes, she will do it.

Essentially, being that the rule in question is boiled down to "Winner gets a pre-in, and a few extra early votes", I consider the size of that award sufficiently small in that it won't interfere outrageously with the progress and process of any potential Nomic III, and sufficiently large in that it's a nice little bonus and not completely worthless.

I'm also gonna claim that fixing it so I can't protest proposals or rules violates GR11, as it currently says that ANYTHING can be protested, and that takes priority over anything else.

Hence my rule proposal to clarify this language. And I agree that you will have the right to protest my proposal based on current rules, which means it will go to council, but it will go to council just once, and if ruled on in my favour, will stop this entire tactic altogether. Otherwise,

YOU WILL BE A BUSY COUNCIL, COUNCIL MEMBERS

.

[Moratorium]

No, I'm redefining what constitutes "a moderator's ruling". GR11 itself will remain untouched.

[Moratorium]

100$$$ sent to Lunar_Tick.

[Moratorium]

Is no one else concerned that this game has basically just become a game of "who can buy the cheap stuff off the marketplace the quickest"?

[Moratorium]

No to P189, P190, P191, P192, P194
Yes to P193

[Moratorium]

/stare at chenshi.

[Moratorium]

Everyone's got a kill attempt on them except you.

[Moratorium]

Change my vote on

P192 to Yay

[Moratorium]

Yay to 195

[Moratorium]

Yes to 196

No to 197-198

[Moratorium]

Should I put up another Cheater's Auction?

[Moratorium]

Just submitted the following:

Upon passing of this rule, the moderator will create a private list of all items which qualify under the following statements:

- Not owned by any player.
- Not listed on any player's Kill or Save list.
- Not an ore.

The moderator will then select 10 items randomly from the private list, and then remove all instances of those 10 items from the marketplace. If the private list only contains 10 or less items, all items from the private list are selected for removal from the marketplace.

Once the moderator has completed this task, this rule is immediately deleted.

=======

The purpose of submitting this rule is to increase the importance of the items somewhat, in an attempt to speed things up a bit.

[Moratorium]

Thanks first to Juls for running the game.

Thanks to Artem, SpyreX and Vi, Juls was very good about telling me.. well.. nothing at all about this game, and I was impressed that she was able to get a panel to help her make decisions. I was very happy to see that this panel seemed to be very active and got decisions back quickly, which helped a lot. So thanks.

Basically, in the end I figured to try and completely overwhelm the "save" mechanic, and kinda took a chance that chenhsi's low money total was because he hadn't done much. If he had just a few more items at the end, he could have sold them all and won (I had nothing left but money). Also, someone buying the item that allows a 24 hour kill could have taken me out if applied at the right time.

Anyways.. It was a risk that paid out. Thanks for playing, everyone. At least this time I don't have to come up with game-ending poetry.

[Moratorium]

The game was "reset" halfway through and all my rules were abolished.