Night Clan - [Game Over]

[ActionDan]

I thought about it (and hopefully most people did) but I think a formalized set hypo-targeting plan for daughters is a good way to start this game for at least the first night.

The simplest is everyone targets the next available non-daughter below them on the playerlist. #1 targets #2 etc. (unless #1 and #2 are both daughters than #1 targets #3, number #2 targets #4, granted this would suck, but it's a necessary evil; all plans of this sort run into the same problem but we can vote on any arbitrary one possibly).

I think we should agree to this relatively quickly before Mafia get any sense of the flow of the game. Doing this now avoids crumbs and an awkward hypo-claim process later.
Simply quote
Yeah
Nay

to express approval. I don't want this to be a drawn out affair

[ActionDan]

how so?

[ActionDan]

Claims of "I'm a mason" are a terrible conundrum. We don't want a second mason to claim to confirm it should it be legit; but otoh as scum, a counterclaim still kills one of our three.

By masons, do you mean daughters? What would entitle a claim from one of them?

Let's say you run me up. Why WOULDN'T I claim daughter if I'm scum? And now we either lynch me anyways on what amounts to a voinflip of killing one of our own three high protective assets; ask for confirmation (thereby exposing another mason if I'm town); or let me go without any. All three of those scenarios suck, but we should figure out in advance which of those three is ideal.

I think it's best for a mason to claim if you're scum. Otherwise stay silent. That should be a rule we instate.

[ActionDan]

Oh I *think* I see. If they skip pl they know to be daughters... we could lyncha daughter unless someone saves them

That's indeed the problem.

Alternatives include, everyone choosing someone to hide behind of their own accord pre-N1 and making this public, or simply not planning ahead at all.

At the very least, I think something like the former should be done.

[ActionDan]

Spitballing: Every player targets at random the player directly above or below them for night one. At daystart you claim if you upped or downed. Hiders that die then give us a list of two names, one of which is scum; but if there's another mason next to them, they obviously just go the other direction.

This is definitely an improvement. Would incorporate

[ActionDan]

What if they hit scum? Even with 1 scum don't they all have to out- at least 1 person will have to out in combination with the other person already outed and from there scum could reverse engineer the third person by putting in the three known values.

They'll have to be subtle, that's all.

That's the name of the game no matter how this works out, and is vastly preferable to "we have no idea who the dead mason hid behind."

Breadcrumbing remains a possible strategy if someone feels they're visiting a possible-scummo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like Kotoko (I think), I'm interpreting that your idea only makes it obvious to the daughters themselves who they targeted and who they should target but not to the rest of the thread unless the thread has knowledge of who the daughters are. You need all 3 to fill in the daughters' arguments. So the daughters would know who is scum (or if a daughter died hiding behind town that got shot) but no one else. To me that seems inferior to basically more or less any other method.

in any setup that revolves around a town minority that should be protected, its only natural that people will try to manipulate the setup to protect them. Starting that convo should not be townread, and especially not the one he came up with, with all of its flaws.

When you say "all of it's flaws," are you referring only to the one I explicitly mentioned? Furthermore, do you have a plan of your own or do you think any you've seen talked about are better significantly than the one I originally proposed?

[ActionDan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but like Kotoko (I think), I'm interpreting that your idea only makes it obvious to the daughters themselves who they targeted and who they should target but not to the rest of the thread unless the thread has knowledge of who the daughters are. You need all 3 to fill in the daughters' arguments. So the daughters would know who is scum (or if a daughter died hiding behind town that got shot) but no one else. To me that seems inferior to basically more or less any other method.

At the minimum, that's the point, yes.

Masons can do some clever crumbing if they want publicly available trails of who they visit, but I don't think that's anywhere near as important as ensuring the masons can coordinate secretly and efficiently.

Any method that doesn't use a system that is only unlockable with the knowledge of all three masons is going to give a huge amount of info to scum. Your original suggestion, for example, removes three players from the mason-pool for them immediately on Day 2.

After thinking about this some more, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. It's simply very different. I'm ok to try this; if nothing else I'm excited to see Python Code play a major role in a game.

[ActionDan]

Sometimes, this game is like

... "eh I ought to go read and post. But I'm not feeling it"

x3 days in row. Sorry that happens to me a lot. I'll promise to post tomorrow.

I've read here and there though.

[ActionDan]

I’m going to post notes from page 6 on. This has taken forever so I attempted to quicken the pace here and there

Kaede is probably town from the exchanges vis-à-vis nos/LLD/Cabd. Consistent narrative, common sense, controlled responses.

Post #123 is hot garbage. It’s immediately apparent that LLD does not understand Kagami’s solution at all for starters, but in general it’s just really basic analysis (if you can call it that).

#141 is an ugly vote post. If that’s an attempt to apply pressure, I can’t imagine a more awkward way of doing so. But I suspect that was more to articulate a scum read and it foreshadows #154 stating the same. If so voting someone for cutting out a vote in a partial quote of one line of text is a shitty reason to scum read someone.

Cabd’s unvote in #176 baffles me. The premise being that #123 + #121 was sufficiently gamebreak-y to satisfy his expectations of LLD’s early game in this sort of role-mechanics driven game. That’s a little quick to believe a “long post” was coming in #121 about the game breaking strategy of “let the daughters (mistakingly thought to be commuters) claim,” and that it’d be gamebreak-y. Second, considering Cabd’s understanding and agreement with Kagami’s proposal, I don’t get how #123 isn’t considered completely inadequate in terms of anyone’s standards to break a game.

“Dos, you’re confused” is a prefect summary for every one of his posts. That said the context is pretty simple since the “‘scum vote’” referenced in #183 was LLD’s in the context of Kaede’s posts. Explained well in #186. Ok and skipping ahead the onus not to waste those 40 mins are on you. Reading is Tech, maybe you should have used some of those 40 to do that.

#193 hmm, I like those reasons too but why is that a surprising answer? Seems like the obvious one based on Kaede’s posts. Maybe the 3 scum remark could have been auxiliary but it’s strange to think that would be the main one at that point. I don’t see how playstyle/personality factors into content. Your posts can be aggressive, tinged with various emotions, but they need not also contain bad logic, or translate into bad votes.

#199, oddly that is an explanation to explain the unvote.

#204 Post sounds town but I don’t know why Vax is being voted over people that make Boring really uncomfortable that don’t have a potential reason for being town (a.k.a the set of {Kaede; Cabd}). This is Nos’s reason for voting Vax but i don’t find it a strong one, as the same post acknowledges.

#210, #207 is possibly correctable. You were asking Maki if your vote due to LLD not satisfying your expectations prior to the scum slip made sense, right? Pretty sure she didn’t get that (or I didn’t)

#223 This is again general and again doesn’t touch on an ounce of kagami’s plan.

#228 The guy you’re voting said “Hi.” on page 1. How do you reconcile feelings on LLD and feelings on Hindu?

#243 way too much stock being put into this.

#268 obligatory this is terrible

#281 Vaxkiller does have a valid concern about not everyone being on board with the plan. I also count the shitposts as content. spammy I’d say, but there’s content there. Don’t see how Kagami’s 279 is scummy either. or how you think Kagami is daughter hunting.

Ok between this and 307, I’d say Hindu is being almost obsequious regarding LLD and disagree with basically everything he says. I also find the “not to me” quibble ironic considering that might as well be Hindu with LLD (were LLD town).

#307 is a town post. It’s not even the emotion.

I don’t like any of #313-316 especially since #318 gives a reasonable read, making the former posts look like posturing.

I dislike the blanket statements in #321 and #322

#331 Why did you drop Cabd?

#348 here’s a tip. Pretend Daughters don’t exist. voilà.

#365 also a very town post.

#368 those are acceptable reads, but I still think at some point the LLD/Hindu reads need to be reconciled.

Kirigiri’s posting around this area looks town to me. Would like to understand the discomfort with regard to Vax though.

#417 despite not particularly liking (to various degrees) any of Kokichi’s posts thus far, I really like this reaction.

#480 I could understand the Maki vote, not this one.

#484 She’s role playing as a detective, so that could be why you might feel that way. Even so I disagree and detect an authenticity present despite that.

#533 from 1) if you had any of the thread for understanding let alone kagami’s plan that would have clued you in to 4). Even now 6) hasn’t been done with specific regard to kagami’s plan.

#536 correct.

#539 We’ve already agreed that naked daughter claims live unless there’s a CC. Kagami would know this.

#555 a rare contradiction within a sentence of each other.

Ok I can’t be bothered to read Maki/Utsugi stuff. Screw links as well.

Anyhow suffice it to say I feel like Kagami is probably the only one that hasn’t donned a pair of black opaque blinders. She just needs to not townread Hindu and we'll be good.

LLD is scum
Hindu is scum

Yuki is a lurker.

VOTE: LLD

[ActionDan]

Lmao I have vastly different reads than Utsugi and the only comment I gave was that the reads were "acceptable". I'm using that word to mean based on what Utsugi has posted so far I can see why they'd have them. With the exception of the reads on both LLD and Hindu and how they go together. I can see town/town and I can see town LLD / scum Hindu. But I really don't see how Utsugi has scum LLD / town Hindu. If, however, you're meaning that I disagreed with reads on Utsugi's list over the course of my entire post and are upset I didn't specifically say "Joey is scummy" then you should probably upgrade your reading comprehension since usually the implication of 2-3 comments exclusively throwing shade on someone is obvious enough.

Similarly, in a conclusion, I'm highlighting the most important bits, not giving a reads list, though if you read for understanding you could roughly figure that out on your own.

If you want to hear it explicitly, you're a scum candidate, and the above spate of posts is a clear example of why.

[ActionDan]

Breaking this post into 2.

---

No matter how many times you deny it, 123 and it's more consolidated form, 223, are garbage posts/analysis. I'll spoiler how steps 1)-5) jive with Kagami's plan.

Spoiler: it doesn't

1) The scum know who they are.
2) Even with randomizers, whether or not players specifically state which person they are targeting, you create pools of information.
3) The scum can use these pools of information to narrow and even completely eliminate potential hiders based upon two things
3a) Did someone target them? If they didn't die, they're not a hider
3b) Did someone target their nightkill? If they didn;t die, they're not a hider.
4) eventually, you cna more or less play Cleudo wiht this information and back trace the identities of the 3 hiders via knowledge gained.
5) Because Hiders are compulsive, all the scum need to begin to do is pool shots that give them the most info... and then pool shots that are highest likely to kill Hiders. Average 1 hider will die from targetting scum, and 1 hider will die from walking into a bullet so all scum need to do is identify 1 hider in excess, to my mind, and they'll have the game mostly won on average.

So the issue here is this plan benefits scum greatly.

1) Sure
2) A pool of information is learned by the daughters, and only the daughters; specifically which of them died targeting scum, which of them died targeting town, which town are innocent.
3) No they can't, because they'd need to know the exact combination of daughters a priori to know the information described in 2)
3a) Kagami's plan has nothing to do with non-daughters claiming hypo-hide targets
3b) Same as 3a)
4) No you can't because this information doesn't exist. The only information that does exist to the scum is whether or not their shot succeeded and the names of dead hiders come daystart, if any.
5) There is no way for scum to pool shots because they only have public information. No one in Kagami's plan hypo-claims hide targets. There may be daughters that have strong scum reads to add to the [do not target] list but that's much harder to spot since everyone has scumreads. The only way imaginable for scum to select higher value targets is to tabulate (as nos eluded to) the number of times any random potential daughter brigade (3 non-scum members) when plugged into the code hides behind town player X. Currently that would involve ₁₄C₃ = 364 or ₁₃C₃ = 286 separate tabulations in the cases of 3 or 4 scum respectively.

For one, 123 is not hot garbage. In fact, even though I agree with Kagami's plan, I think those are accurate concerns. It's apparent from that alone that LLD was one of the few people who not only understood the plan but saw the flaws of it. NOONE ELSE pointed out these flaws, not even myself, because we did not think of them.

Its because the "flaws" pointed out by LLD DON'T EXIST, but somehow it's apparent to ONLY you. This is your revisionism

Spoiler:

If scum try to kill someone on N1 and the kill fails, scum can then plug in the numbers and the Day # info (albeit by trying multiple different combinations of people not to target with the code) and reverse-engineer the code to find out to target next night. They can then use this information to figure out who is a daughter. By doing this over multiple nights, they can figure out the daughter team and who they may hide behind. The downside is that they have to figure out who the hiding blacklist might consist of should a daughter use it so there is a degree of wifom in it.

Scum can also use this information to get multiple kills on daughters and their targets in a given night. Scum can also find out who would be due to target them that night, albeit without blacklists and with added wifom, and get confirmed non-daughters from it.

That's what I interpreted 123 from LLD as. I just said we could try this for N1 and go into D2 and worry about it then. Again, this is all potential stuff which is why I sidetracked it. It's not that important or likely to happen. It is still a flaw in the plan, however.

Can you tell me where LLD mentions or even alludes to "If scum try to kill someone on N1 and the kill fails..." or "reverse-engineer the code" because at no point does she do this. You saying she does is literally gas lighting. Furthermore, if these are the "flaws you could not think of" in 667 I'm sorry to say but they are "not hard shit to reason through" as claimed in in 658. Multiple people have discussed the concern about reverse engineering and concluded it's not feasible and, similarly, although to my knowledge never explicitly stated, scum failing their kill N1 is inherently good for us and while it gives them the identity of one daughter a) the daughters (and potentially the rest of town) would know scum know 1 daughter and adjust strategies accordingly and b) scum can't use that information effectively anyway without knowing all 3 daughters.

AD is scum. LLD had in depth thoughts that were the downsides to the plan. In AD's post, he dismisses this as "hot garbage" which it clearly wasn't for no reason and further says it's "really basic analysis".

So no matter how you slice it the above is simply not true. LLD did not have any in depth thoughts at all and I believe you understand kagami's code well enough that I am quite sure LLD's posts on the subject did not unlock some hidden reservations about it.

[ActionDan]

193 was clearly explained with what the answer was expected to be, hence surprising. Just because our expectations are different isn't anything to comment on - unless you're looking for reckless bullshit to pad a catch up post with. Playstyle/personality absolutely impact posting. Mafia is about people, we are not machines. Just because there isn't a "need" for things doesn't mean it's all going to be rainbows and sunshine. In fact, there's no point in explaining this either. It's obvious. There's not a damn reason to be having this discussion.

Actually it is because I have a hard time of believing you had that expectation that a supposed scum slip would be the main reason why Kaede scum read LLD and not the back and forth 2 pages after that culminated in a 1v1. Like you can be surprised all you want but that also means you didn't consider any of the followup which doesn't make sense to me. I'm also noting in this quote that you're putting words in my mouth: I never said Playstyle/personality don't impact posting. Of course they do. I asked why they'd necessarily impact content in terms of logic or votes. LLD can be aggressive and emotional but that doesn't preclude her from making sense, or having bad stances, or pushing bad lynches. In your sycophantic world LLD is a stable genius capable of unearthing the deadly faults of the best laid plans, so I suppose I shouldn't have expected much.

#199, oddly that is an explanation to explain the unvote.

Oddly he remains off of your scumlist at the bottom of your post.

Hmmmm now why could that be? Could it be because I have much stronger scum reads on both you and LLD for more egregious and consistent scum posting? Nahhhhhhh.

Cabd's unvote remains scummy but afterwords he didn't drop his line of questioning on LLD with regard to what flaws she saw in kagami's plan which led to 223 (albeit after LLD prompted him). I thought that was an indication that he did think 123 was indeed inadequate.

He's now voting me and thinks LLD is locktown which I can tell you is just lovely. Suffice it to say I'm less than enthused.

Again, not a damn reason to comment on 243 unless you're just looking through things to add to a post. The thought behind it is great. There's no reason to discredit what is being said.

The thought behind it? roughly translated: "Anime rp account posts Anime image and I'm sincerely debating between the motivation to RP outweighing what otherwise would be a clearly anti-town post outlining a a possible town non-daughter". Great thought. Good brain.

Actually it's nonsensical because anyone with more than 2 braincells could have deduced LLD if town was a non-daughter from that post. Kaede doesn't need to tell anyone that. Joey's post is exactly the kind of fluff you're deriding me for. This "thought" could have gone unspoken.

You say 268 is terrible. Right. But we've already gone over it and it's not even on the table anymore. So why are you still worried so much about setup? Why aren't you trying to scumhunt? Don't say you're not reviewing what you write either. 281 and 307 are grouped on the same line with each other so you're clearly going over what you've written.

Sorry 268 offends my delicate sensibilities, unsure why you're taking issue with me calling it terrible unless you saw an opportunity to lob the following two questions right after. The answers to those are a) that I'm not worried something like 268 is ever going to happen, although I low-key worry without a consensus on a plan we'll be dysfunctional wrt to night actions and b) I'm scum hunting just fine thanks. Yes I review what I write, mostly, unsure what the implication is there.

My 281 clearly shows Kagami expects a daughter claim and is wanting a lynch. Feigning ignorance to that is ignoring what's right in front of you.

For the record, since there isn't context with this and while I'm looking over this abomination of a post.

Don’t see how Kagami’s 279 is scummy either. or how you think Kagami is daughter hunting.

I got scumread because AD doesn't see "how 279 is scummy or " how I "think Kagami is daughter hunting" in 281. There's no reasoning here. There's no basis. There's simply disagreement. Noone else questioned this because it's pretty obvious the aim of the post is expecting a daughter claim in reply, which Kagami later clarified was the case.

Well in 284 that would be Kagami questioning it and in 285 clarifying that was not the case. This is all within around 2 posts of yours too. Are you... feigning ignorance?

However, I don't think the other interpretation is scummy either, that is, to pursue a read that's essentially daughter or bust, which again, kagami wasn't actually doing.

Ok between this and 307, I’d say Hindu is being almost obsequious regarding LLD and disagree with basically everything he says

307 is clearly not even me. If you mean 306, Vax was voting LLD and not even mentioning she's scum and keeping his options open. Of course I'm going to call that out.

I was summarizing posts between 281 and 307 exclusive. But for 305 specifically I do in fact think your last paragraph does have standing were it limited to Vax's vote, "'content they made after'", and "You're not adding anything to the discussion" (in the sense of Vax not talking about whether Vax agrees or not with that content making LLD scum) in that order. That is something I agreed with. But you embellished tacking on daughter hunting / uselessness / trolling / and being unable to empathize with a town perspective, which as I said, and what you cut out of the quote, was ironic.

I don’t like any of #313-316especially since #318 gives a reasonable read, making the former posts look like posturing.

Being upset that people are doing anti-town things when you think they're town is a lot more upsetting than when you're scum. It is hard for scum to relate to this feeling while reading over these posts, though, so I can understand your misinterpretation.

It's also true that town that think another player is town don't generally go out of their way to treat them like shit, no matter what the circumstances. And these so called anti-town posts aren't really that bad at all. All of Joey's posts are ridiculously over the top. I mean maybe he just has anger management issues but they didn't fit.

321 and 322 are blanket statements because they're opening up the possibility of scum LLD/Vax without any further exploration on the topic. They're just naturally fencesitting on both reads (i.e. these people could be scum, also, they could not). By contrast, I'm expressing specific dislike of both posts.

It's pretty clear you're trying to create a narrative with your post here. Earlier you said it's bad to not use logic or have a bad vote. Yet, these posts break that rule and are "very town" and "town". Right.

Just because I didn't explain it doesn't mean the logic isn't there. Vax's posts called out your embellishments. He dug in and I thought it was warranted.

Buttering up Kyoto? Stretch much? No content of worth? ok pretty sure you made a massive post in response to a bunch.

Right, because it's a vote on me. You said nothing about 413 at all yet made this post liking "this reaction". Town does not do this. They don't like a post and agree with a reaction or feel good about a reaction. They don't see someone saying "I can't let this post go without a vote" and then say "yeah.... I LIKE THAT". Coming from someone who has been arguing about things being logical, liking "this reaction" is not logical.

In 417 the vote on you has nothing to do with it, it was the knee-jerk reaction to vote that. However, I'm glad I'll be introducing you to a new and yet rather common move town does to add to your extensive collection.

#533/536 is actually a terrible conversing point and added to just be there.

No.

Pointing out that Kagami isn't an idiot to negate most of LLD's point in 539 is "befriending" now. Alright I'll keep it in my mind wouldn't want to burst your narrative you've got going.

#555 a rare contradiction within a sentence of each other.

A not-so-rare copy of providing absolutely no thoughts or explanation to go along with a view. My 555 is clearly me saying Kokichi isn't providing content and asking for that same content from Kokichi. How in the world you expect others to think you can form a scumread on me for reasons like THIS is baffling.

I must be misremembering

Kokichi is shaky but I'd like to see more posting. We only have about ~4 days left for lynch and at least Kokichi is contributing and trying.

The kitty wants me voted, but can barely explain why. How about you tell me why first?

Instead of being a cheeky fuck, contribute to this game please. What are your reads? Do you have any? What are your thoughts? A

lot

has happened.

Ah nope I wasn't. That said I wasn't under any illusions that the juxtaposition was anything but deliberate at the time and now. So I have to ask why you thought it necessary to not address the contradiction I mentioned (and which you set up) that Kokichi was both contributing and trying, and at the same time, not.

I can see town/town and I can see town LLD / scum Hindu. But I really don't see how Utsugi has scum LLD / town Hindu

Funny thing about this is it's an obvious lie-

You're voting LLD while displaying that you are more sure of me being scum. Right.

I mean to me you're both interchangeably scum. However you're the one with the "Trust me, I bet my life on town LLD" which if you're to be believed, means that scum LLD => scum you.

But I'm more than happy to have it your way. Besides the wagons bigger now (partially because it seems I'm doing my best to take votes away from LLD and unto me)

VOTE: Hinduragi

[ActionDan]

As a preface to this post, I'll spoiler this, for hinduragi, but for the voyeurs out there have at it:

Alright, I'm going to step out of the game for a second and just say one thing because I was rageposting while writing that up.

Spoiler: Really this is just for AD but we all know you want to click it

I apologize for being rude in 713/714, AD. I've had a long day and I

really

despise walls and got pissed that there was another one as soon as I got time to read and post today. It's really irked me even moreso that you've been calling out anime images in them and I've wasted my time locating the post just to realize it has no relevance to anyone being scum/town and you're just commenting on it. Also, I still do think that's filler but I wouldn't necessarily say that makes it a bad wall. I'm honestly not having fun due to trying to read so much as well as respond to walls.

<3 AD, but I still think you're scum. Also, I'm not going to be linking god knows everything in a wall and quoting it all starting from this post; From the moment I sat down, it has taken me over 2 hours to form my response after first trying to understand what was linked and how that related to the second wall. It took me even longer to go through the first wall. I really can't keep up that kind of time commitment right now.

Spoiler:

Well keep in mind that the first wall was me catching up with (at the time) 20 pages of material, and the subsequent ones were because I felt obligated to respond to your own (rather large) wall in response. This post will probably be wall-y (edit: Definitely ) but I aim to post a bit more in bulk without as many quotes and condense what I can without losing too much context in the process. As far as rudeness is concerned I don't think you're even coming close to crossing any lines and I've been just as snarky myself. On my end I'll be more considerate. I appreciate your post, it's an overture I haven't experienced or even witnessed often, and you have my sincere gratitude for it.

---

I think it's best to start with this

Actually, to get some substance out of this, AD. What's your scumread on me from? The reasons in your wall about me being scum are laughable at best.

As of now it's two parts. One part is that we seem to be living in two different realities, we're operating under two different sets of facts, and it leads me to question that you truly believe the one you describe when it is demonstratively false.

We have two completely and apparently irreconcilable interpretations of 123 and 223, which we've discussed plenty and I've dedicated an entire post to; even in the three lines you quoted and have presented at the top of 715, I again fail to see how you or anyone could have extracted the concern that she was referring to the problem of "scum failing their kill = knowledge gained of precisely one daughter" at any point in the quote. This concern is also unavoidable in any plan, and therefore a general concern. You chastise me that I ought to think LLD's posts through, but I assure you I have, many times, and I'm not crazy. Nor am I the only one that thinks so (I am explicitly referring to kagami here, the only other person that seems to have actually invested the time into reading those posts of LLD's and analyzing them). What I could potentially see, is that you think she's so town, for whatever reason, that you're assigning her credit for something not there, but I don't think you'd treat me in this way were that the case.

Separate from that I think the way you've treated the sequence of posts from 281 to 285 also falls under this category. Context:

My 281 clearly shows Kagami expects a daughter claim and is wanting a lynch. Feigning ignorance to that is ignoring what's right in front of you.

For the record, since there isn't context with this and while I'm looking over this abomination of a post.

Don’t see how Kagami’s 279 is scummy either. or how you think Kagami is daughter hunting.

I got scumread because AD doesn't see "how 279 is scummy or " how I "think Kagami is daughter hunting" in 281. There's no reasoning here. There's no basis. There's simply disagreement.

Noone else questioned this because it's pretty obvious the aim of the post is expecting a daughter claim in reply, which Kagami later clarified was the case

.

Well in 284 that would be Kagami questioning it and in 285 clarifying that was not the case. This is all within around 2 posts of yours too. Are you... feigning ignorance?

However, I don't think the other interpretation is scummy either, that is, to pursue a read that's essentially daughter or bust, which again, kagami wasn't actually doing.

284/285: Kagami was clearly not explaining she thought LLD claimed non-daughter prior to that. It's easy to think she was daughter hunting in 281 --> which was clearly posted before 284/285. Your questioning of that post is entirely off. Kagami responded to my post with those posts, not the other way around.

Broadly speaking, by the time I wrote 707 I had understood what 281 meant, that at that point you interpreted kagami to expect a daughter claim from LLD. I don't remember when exactly I realized that, it could have been as early as right after I wrote that in 642, but I should have mentioned that I understood your point of view in 707, so sorry for that. Still, the bolded sentence above is what I had an issue with when I replied specifically. That is just false, on the count of no one questioning your interpretation (In 284 Kagami asked if you were reading), and on the count of your interpretation being the correct one (In 285 Kagami is explicitly saying it is not); and that is what I was referring to in my reply in 707 which as far as I can tell you are acknowledging implicitly by what you said in 715. I also think your initial interpretation was not obvious at all and certainly wouldn't be the first I'd think of considering how blatantly LLD not-daughter-told early on page 5. Sure that's a disagreement, but your interpretation before being corrected was fodder to accuse kagami of being scummy and it is possible to willfully interpret things one way to smear her.

The "contradiction" in post 555 I made a reference to in would have been bundled here but if I stare hard enough I can see your point of view where the first "contribute" refers strictly to making posts in game whereas the second refers to making meaningful posts in game. The choice of words still rubs me the wrong way, but I can get over it.

---

The other part is where the facts are the same, but we have quite different interpretations of them. In the interests of time and readability, I'll go other this more generally as it's not quite as context reliant.

I still find your 193 unnatural. Sure people jump on supposed scum slips here and there and from time to time but I can assure you there was 2 pages of content that exclusively contained posts from Kaede/Cabd/Nos/LLD that ended up with LLD and Kaede proclaiming and agreeing to a 1v1, so there was a good amount there to form a read. It's one thing to expect a reason of Kaede's scum read of LLD to be based on the "3 scum" language (that is indeed the ostensible reason for the original vote) but to expect it to be the main and only one considering the posts in-between is far-fetched.

In regards to Vax, there were fair criticisms to be made and you made them, but you threw basically everything you could at him too in 305 things like uselessness / trolling / daughter hunting and presented them as malicious scummy things when they weren't. I think it's scummy to paint someone as scummier than they have any right to be. In addition I felt the "'not to me'" assessment was both untrue and also hypocritical. I agree that his response was over the top, but as I said I discounted the emotion (well somewhat. I did think it was righteous) and rather gave him credit for reasoning against a couple of your points, and sticking to it over multiple posts. You ask me to compare that with Joey's posts, 313-316, and it's still really hard to see where that huge amount of anger that reaches fever pitch comes from over objectively benign posts. It's comparing apples and oranges.

---

So that's where my scum read comes from. There's a bit more in your posts that you wanted me to address but I'm just say were you to flip town I'd reevaluate at a minimum my read of LLD. I still might reach the same conclusion but I'd I wouldn't rush headlong into "LLD is scum, gotta be"; I concede the point about blanket statements / I should have been more through in what I meant by that, as I was afterwards but I feel like I have to reiterate that 642 was catch up notes. Things are bound to be lost in translation.

ALL THAT said I agree with you that I have many doubts these posts actually get read, the evidence being I don't think I've seen any particular part of mine or your walls get referenced. Just general feelings one


---


As for everyone else:

When I don't feel like super sleepy I'll have to read and evaluate the exchange between Nos/Oma/kyoto. Whatever that was seemed to spawn from out of the blue.

There's a subtle change in position from Joey over the course of these posts

idk about dan, the guy barely make sens honestly but i do share the feeling about being unsure of his alignement, i just feels that the guy's incoherent and its not because of his alignement or better say regardless of his alignement

@ MOD : I voted actiondan first, when hes flips red i want all my cred thank you

Which makes me think the first evaluation wasn't quite truthful.

Utsugi's voting reason is unnerving and suspect. The last time someone voted based on wagon composition D1 they were scum and with due reason. You should always be trying for something that you scum read if you have them, which Utsugi, and barring that, reread to try and make a reasonable comparison between similar reads of people. If you vote based on wagon comp you're essentially abdicating responsibility for your vote.
Maki is doing the same thing but as far as I can tell she doesn't have anything better available read wise. That's a bit hard to imagine but same advice applies.

I continue to wonder if Cabd will make an appearance.

Anyway I feel like I'm on the short end of a shit stick and it sucks.

Sleep now, probably consider future voting options later if the current trend continues

[ActionDan]

When I don't feel like super sleepy I'll have to read and evaluate the exchange between Nos/Oma/kyoto. Whatever that was seemed to spawn from out of the blue.

If I had to award anything, it would be slight town points to Nos and slight scum points to Oma, only because that exchange was perpetrated by Oma on a whim and I find it overzealous to vote Nos based on matching his antics.

Don't really think you're scum but I'm not gonna kick and scream over your lynch.

The only thing I was asking you to do and am asking now is to find a scum read and vote it. It can't be that hard. That's hardly kicking and screaming, that's just playing the game.

There's a lot wrong with 854. I've gone down the rabbit hole with Hinduragi and I've given my opinions on plenty of others too; if people don't read, analyze, and make conclusions from it that's on them not me. What does "His general Obscurity points more to scummy than towny." Does that have to do with my reads not being attuned to the general consensus? God forbid I have independent thoughts. Again with everyone's constant refrain of "I like the wagon composition". It truly makes me sick. The only difference here is that Boring provided reasons to go with it but to me it'd be better if those didn't exist at all.

Yuki is scum lurkaderping

I know I voted for the exact same reason boring did but I fee like boring did it because no one questioned mine

Allow me to continue to question yours again and again. You have a scum read that you aren't voting over a null read. Consolidation be damned.

Out of the 5 people currently voting me only

one

has an actual scum read on me. I don't really know where Cabd stands but I know it stands to reason he isn't reading closely since he voted me (in which despite claiming to proxy his vote to LLD hers wasn't yet on me).

At least for the Rompa Anime Avatars, think what you will, but they are at the least voting their stated scum reads. They are playing mafia. What I see above isn't it, and I can tell you it's frustrating to no end.

And to respond to Joey in particular you have no right to quote my wall and tell me I'm delusional about trying to push my scum read and not read it when, even were the fact that I understood that survival was on the line explicitly in that very post, pushing scum reads is correct play.

As well as the opportunity cost remark, like wow. You literally value anything I'd have to say less than a lurker lurking when you don't even think I'll flip scum.

---

Kagami I don't know if Hindu would champion it. It's odd yes, I've thought that, that surely there'd be a better scum strategy and both of them would be start enough to know what that might be and how risky this one would be. I've tended to rationalize that that's WIFOM and try not to let that doubt cloud my judgement. I've been starting to waver a bit in regards to my scum read on LLD. Among other things I'm surprised she hasn't voted me yet. And I'm really spooked by the phenomenon that's occurring above.

So I'm going to vote Boring and see where the chips fall. I honestly could vote Cabd as well, since feels and reals together inform me that's where I'd feel a scum hides.

VOTE: Boring

For the record Hindu what are your thoughts on Kaito/Boring/Kokichi at the moment?

[ActionDan]

If there's reason to be concerned about AD, it's that he's leaning heavily on arguments that are objectively correct.

You'd be surprised what I can do when I actually bother to read a thread for understanding and detail. I know I have a habit of doing jack-all usually though, so I'll forgive you for that

[ActionDan]

Well that explains a fucking lot

VOTE: Cabd

[ActionDan]

LLD's target

Was either Kyoto, Kagami, or Cephrir

Unless Kagami's plan is being followed in which case it's anyone's guess.

[ActionDan]

Ya I understand, a non-read from boring coupled with an urge not to lynch a lurker slot + what I think is a town read from Cephrir on Boring. If I weren't voting Cabd I'd strongly consider voting Cephrir.

[ActionDan]

Alright.

(What's sos?)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cephrir

[ActionDan]

Oh I see. I'm dumb.

[ActionDan]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cabd

I don't see a town Cabd popping in to ask a question about double vote mechanics without at least commenting on Ceph's wagon.

I didn't really see a town Cabd anyway but you know.

Hindu asked so I'll answer; My vote on Ceph has much less to do with crumbs than being asked to vote him on account of his end of day stances along with flipped scum's meshing well for a potential partner. As for crumbs I can see what LLD posted on Ceph to be one of three things 1) a deliberate crumb made calculatingly at the time of post 2) not deliberately a crumb but something that LLD would hope others to determine to be a crumb in the case of her death or 3) simply telling Kaito to fuck off. I will feel very silly later if scenario 1 is correct, but I think it's at least as likely LLD targeted Kagami and there's also a low but not insignificant chance LLD targeted Kyoto.

Today I'll only be voting in a pool of Cabd, Snarky, Kaito, Cephrir. Cephrir's reread and read list made from it is serviceable but doesn't leave me with any kind of townread or scumread. The Cabd vote is a good one however and I'm clearly biased.

[ActionDan]

Yes I remember almost getting lynched D1 over scum haha fun.

the non-vote in 1336 is understandable considering Kaede's strong suspicion of Cephrir (which is reasonable). I wouldn't expect Kaede to vote Snarky there.

pedit: Maybe one day.

[ActionDan]

This game feels like it's stalling out. There really hasn't been anything to comment on in the last two days. Kirigiri is wrong about the crumb she found. As for Joey's post about his plan, I have confidence that the remaining daughters have followed their own instincts whether that has been following Kagami's plan or not, and should be able to do continue to do what they think is best.

[ActionDan]

That might be what happened but it wouldn't be because of kagami's plan.

[ActionDan]

anyway, do you have reads?

[ActionDan]

Because Cabd is a stronger scum read.

Why are you so concerned? You're voting Snarky.

[ActionDan]

This is a trip I'm not going to take. remember my opinion D1?

Yeah...

[ActionDan]

i can do whatever, whenever

ob

[ActionDan]

Hi

[ActionDan]

Ok Bye

[ActionDan]

I have role related reasons to believe Kaito is town

So 100% not Oma?

[ActionDan]

kk

[ActionDan]

The last couple pages made me wince at numerous points.

But really I'm pretty sure game ends after Cabd/Ceph are lynched in some order, regardless of daughters and their clears, which, are pretty obvious atm and have been for a while. So please don't crumb for upcoming nights and don't follow Kagami's plan anymore either. I wouldn't anyway.

VOTE: Cabd

[ActionDan]

I'm a simple Day 4 dv soldier

[ActionDan]

this game should be breakable now

[ActionDan]

Cephrir. And that's it.

[ActionDan]

I was thinking daughters were hindu/Maki at some point, well hindu immediately D2 obvs. (and that Oma was hindu's clear).

Also lol I'd never push LLD like that were I a mistletoe too Hindu

[ActionDan]

Yay~

Man dan, sorry about the red magnet.

Lol yeah, the 3 large themes, 3 scum pms. Kill me lol

[ActionDan]

Balance wise I thought the game was pretty good EXCEPT for Hindu's role was completely unnecessary

[ActionDan]

happy to release scum QT

[ActionDan]

lolmad

Being scum in a Fakegod game is suffering. I have a history of complaining about balance in fakegod games, but I thought it wasn't too far off here. (I mean I still think it'd be just perfect without your role)

btw @fakegod

"why do scum get wrecked by day play in my games"

3 scum in 17 people will kinda naturally do this.

[ActionDan]

I thought you were a daughter, especially after LLD flipped plus the "Trust me I know who is hiding behind me" (referring to you)