Beneath The Mask [Endgame]

[Leonshade]

*Impressed whistle*

[Leonshade]

Congratulationz on your new badge, Ali.

[Leonshade]

Happy scumday!

[Leonshade]

I think that's the case in every game that starts when X confirm (I know I designed my first game without daytalk with that in mind).

[Leonshade]

Creature's trying to get TR'd in the pre-game. And he's successful.

Yume's way of claiming miller is about par for the course for her, see Kingdom Hearts for an example of similar behavior.

[Leonshade]

Why would you expect another one?

[Leonshade]

Why would you expect another one?

Did you read what I've posted so far?

Oh, the mod meta. Never mind, then.

Since we all know our alignments, why is reading people in the pre-game bad or weird?

I also don't understand the first part, but that post was just my way of saying "I, like others, already TR Creature".

[Leonshade]

wtf is a miller
(this is echo that's why i didn't answer your question mulch, your question is for mm4)

also knowing how alisae makes games it's probably like 19/3 with the 3 scum being gods

Couldn't you just ask this in your hydra PT?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

[Leonshade]

Why is that scummy

I don't understand yall sometimes

Pinged by this. You seem to assume Wheme is town with a bad read, instead of possibly being scum pushing you for a bad reason.

[Leonshade]

Fuck me I just read my role PM and I want to be lynched now.
Like just seriously I don't see any way I could ever have use for the town. I absolutely do NOT want the scum to nightkill me...which is the whole fucking point normally of having the negative utility I do. For that matter though, protective roles, stay the fuck off of me. If the scum do nightkill me (I absolutely don't want them to), the LAST thing you want to do is to stop it.

It's just about the worst role I've ever received and I am mad now.

Did you get a double voter again?

Was anyone around for DGB's loser claim a long long time ago.
I'm getting those sort of vibes.

if you hinting that mastina's claim is bs, i totally agree, but i want Creature's head today, she can wait

Did you consider Creature's "slip" in 163 to be real, or are you just agreeing with the "policy lynch"? Or is there another reason?

Why is that scummy

I don't understand yall sometimes

Pinged by this. You seem to assume Wheme is town with a bad read, instead of possibly being scum pushing you for a bad reason.

Well, I do townread people at the start of the game. So if it sounded like that, then it's probably true, but I'm not really assuming Wheme's town here nor scum. Too early to give serious reads.

I actually want to know the reason behind why is that scummy.

It's scummy because town wouldn't know who is town and who is scum, while scum would. So scum would be more likely to slip, and reveal that they know a player is town.

[Leonshade]

So, in short, if you plan on coming after me, as either town or scum, you'll have to come to the metaverse.
That's all.

if scum is in the real world they can still kill you if you're in the metaverse so this statements just kinda unnecessary

-ryan

'
Where did you get this from? The OP says that rules primarily only affect the world the player is in, and it doesn't specify an exception for the factional kill.

[Leonshade]

It's scummy because town wouldn't know who is town and who is scum, while scum would. So scum would be more likely to slip, and reveal that they know a player is town.

Do you think I deserve a rope because you seem to think I know Wheme is town?

You're jumping too far ahead. It's pre-game, we can't even vote yet, let alone finalise a lynch. Your post was simply the first thing that has pinged me.

well when i was asking alisae questions about it on steam i asked him "hey guy so if i'm in metaverse i can't die to ppl in real world" and he's like "no homes you can still die don't worry about it" and i'm like "oh darn shucks"

Why doesn't Ali have me on steam

But ok.

[Leonshade]

Was anyone around for DGB's loser claim a long long time ago.
I'm getting those sort of vibes.

if you hinting that mastina's claim is bs, i totally agree, but i want Creature's head today, she can wait

Did you consider Creature's "slip" in 163 to be real, or are you just agreeing with the "policy lynch"? Or is there another reason?

that "joke" was just cherry on top, he tried "townslip" with "only 4 scum" and gave ridiculous reasoning, then was arguing no sk, because of role PMs, but mine says "threats to town", no indication about no sk, so maybe he have different wincon? another fake "townslip" was "16:5 is scumsided", 16+5 =/= 22. He's active, yes, but does anything what he says make any sense? Or he just try play to his town meta?

I don't have a problem with your reasoning, but I don't think that it adds up to scum!Creature. I've played with Creature consistently over the past year, and I've yet to see him be able to play to his town meta as scum. It's not uncommon for Creature to throw out seemingly random ideas as town, or for him to get something about the setup or mechanics wrong, but I haven't seen him be able to fake being engaged for long periods of time as scum. Until I see Creature have an advanced scumgame, I'm going to keep townreading him when his meta calls for it.

[Leonshade]

You're jumping too far ahead. It's pre-game, we can't even vote yet, let alone finalise a lynch. Your post was simply the first thing that has pinged me.

Well it looks like you're ready to vote me when D1 starts

I am, yeah.

[Leonshade]

long period of time? he already backing off from game and entering lurk mode

But he didn't use that as a reason to not post, he still posted multiple times after saying that. And he was getting policy lynch talk due to his activity, the claim to back off was a response to external pressure.

You're jumping too far ahead. It's pre-game, we can't even vote yet, let alone finalise a lynch. Your post was simply the first thing that has pinged me.

Well it looks like you're ready to vote me when D1 starts

I am, yeah.

So how is that jumping too far ahead if you're ready to vote for me D1? I want to clearly understand your scumread on me.

How often does a player's first vote lead to them tunneling that player for the rest of the day? D1 is for getting a foothold in the game and sorting as many players as possible, it's the day I (and most people) are most likely to change their votes multiple times. You have one thing about you that pings me, as opposed to everyone else having zero, so I want to vote you. If you're town, hopefully I will be satisfied by your reactions or someone else will prove scummier, and I will change my vote. I don't have a strong SR on you, and I don't understand why my early suspicion bothers you so much.

[Leonshade]

Do you mean me in specific, or just the people pushing you in general?

[Leonshade]

So why am I scum?

[Leonshade]

I guess I'll wait before posting my thoughts.

I didn't want to out Maria in case she was playing under a secret alt, but her posting style was impossible to miss.

[Leonshade]

Important update: Ali added me on Steam. That is all.

[Leonshade]

Is it an unsolved math problem, or just your homework?

[Leonshade]

Thanks Leon you're great. Did you have a read on my slot you were keeping hidden for meta or?

Not yet, but I'm sure I'll be using meta later on. Now I don't have to say stuff like "If Maki is who I think she is she's town because blah blah blah".

[Leonshade]

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Welcome (back)!

[Leonshade]

Here's the post I had cooking before deciding to wait for the day to start:

So why am I scum?

I don't think you're really scum. It just felt like the way how you were so sure about me just really felt wrong, but idk.

Once again, I don't know why you thought that I'm sure about you? I said I was pinged by your post and explained why, and you jumped straight to me wanting a noose around your neck.

I'm not liking Creature here. This feels like Creature trying to break out of his scum meta. There are exceptions, but most people tend to be energized at the start of a scum game when they draw scum, since it's much less frequent (with anomalies occasionally, like the absurd streak of scum assignments I had over the Summer). My experience in the past ~3 years on this site, and the near decade on my home site, has borne out that the vast majority of "inactive" or "low active" posters are town who are either overwhelmed or are just very selective in what they want to engage with.

Don't get me wrong: Scum do sometimes hide in that group of people. The thing is ... if the inactive group is large enough, scum end up having to kill there and weed themselves out for us. I've found that more often than not, someone pushing the idea that inactives should be the priority is scum.

Early light scum read goes to Creature. Mostly for the fact that he referenced his self-meta as scum to (possibly) plant the idea that a scum!Creature would not be posting anywhere near the level he is.

In bolded, you make an unexplained statement about Creature breaking out of his scum meta (which he has so far never done to my knowledge), then start rambling about activity theory, which has nothing to do with the point you're making. Every single game start of scum!Creature I've seen has him radiate disinterest due to rolling scum, why would he suddenly be energized by it?

Italics is something I've seen Creature do as town before, it's not indicative of scum!Creature.

[Leonshade]

Just saw that key quietly replaced out. I'll treat it as NAI, but that slot's still getting my vote.

VOTE: keyenpeydee

Leon, what do you think of my post replying to the same drixx post line by line?

Not yet caught up since the day started, but I checked this out. Nothing I disagree with there, looks like you made many of my points independently of me. You've got a good point about scum being in a position of potentially facing three locktowns with the amount of people in this game who can read town!Creature. I'd love to hear Drixx expand on his Creature read, it doesn't make much sense to me at present.

[Leonshade]

Oh right, we have this handy thing.

HURT: Drixx

[Leonshade]

HURT: RationalNumbers, rather.

What's this about masons?

Read the role PM in the OP, our conftown player has a mason buddy.

[Leonshade]

Reading Creature based on meta has always worked well for me, and many other players. I can think of no player I find easier to read than Creature, and I don't even know who #2 on my list of easy to read players would be. I know mastina can also read him, and presumably other players on this player list.

I don't want to keep harping on this point, as I feel like I harp on it every game, but I also don't want to end up in a game state where I have to defend a player I consider obvtown because people with less experience with him find his playstyle scummy.

[Leonshade]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I figured out a way that we could break the game and confirm every Phantom Thief.
Part of the Phantom Thief role PM tells me who Akira Kurusu is.
If, somehow, we could all claim at the same time, who Akira is, we could immediately confirm all the Phantom Thieves.
Of course, that level of cooperation and getting everyone to post at the exact same time so scum can't just copy+paste and sneak in would be nearly impossible.
I also though that maybe when we run someone to L-1, they could claim and also claim who they think Akira is, but if scum somehow know Akira's identity (But they shouldn't otherwise this game design gets real dumb), we could confirm out people before lynching them.
Of course, that does out Akira, who seems to be our most useful PR or something.

You went out of your way to claim this, just so you could suggest a plan that you immediately acknowledge is impossible in practice? And one that assumes that scum don't have access to the knowledge of who Akira is. I can understand you having this thought process, and then realizing the flaws with your plan, but I don't understand why you then decided to post it.

VOTE: chesskid

FOS: davesaz

good night, i'm caught up. mastina's town, obviously. less obviously but still obviously, Varsoon is town. i don't think key is scum either.
and no, i won't explain until i've had a chance to interact in real-time.

Could you expand on these reads? I think I know why you (and some others, such as seemingly chesskid on Varsoon) are assuming Varsoon and mastina are town, and I feel like that's giving too little credit to their ability to gambit their play. I definitely know of mastina's willingness and ability to pull off gambits, so I won't give her towncred for claiming to want to be lynched. It's rare that someone in mastina's position would actually get lynched D1, especially in a large game. Their hydra partner even backed off of the desire to get lynched. I do like Eddie's post on Drixx, specifically the fact that he brought up good points similar to my thought process independently of me, but that can't be what you were basing your read on, here.

And why not when she asked to be lynched?

VOTE: mastina

I have a bad feeling about a few players but I wanna sync up with Drixx...E Not Chara and still don't like Chikitorita or key or Ramicus.

--Math

You're replying to mastina's hydra partner, who would therefore have the exact same role as mastina, stating that mastina shouldn't be lynched (if you didn't realize that Purple Nurple is her hydra buddy, ignore this part). I know that you're familiar enough with mastina to know of her propensity for gambits, so why did you take her request to be lynched at face value?

Penguin and Reck are probably town.

Is this simply based on their refusal to read the pre-game?

these are :townposts:

Strongly disagreed. (For context, these are the Drixx posts I've referenced earlier)

[Leonshade]

@Not Chara:

I forgot to ask, since I started ranting about mastina: I'd especially like you to explain your key read, as well.

i like this "Creature is town, meta, yada yada yada", i heard it in Clash of Gods too, so i refuse think about him as obv town, let alone conf town

People actually referred to Creature as obvtown in that game? For my part, I lamented the fact that Creature wasn't obvtown, wondered whether he was disinterested or scum, the realized that he was probably just scum (and then replaced out). Creature in this game is definitely different from Clash of the Gods, in a town way.

Idk how you're doing but i'm still stuck at 5ish townread wise (Rational, Wheme, Varsoon, Luv, and You) and basically nothing else.

Would like to hear more about these townreads, especially Wheme and LUV.

Yes. I think scum are unlikely to enter the game that way and double down on the stance. Especially considering pre-game generated so many pages and a good amount of town have some reads from the content.

I don't agree with this. Scum have less reason to read everything, and being/pretending to be lazy is a relatively low-risk thing to do. Reckoner and Penguin took a bit of heat for it, but they're not actually anyone's main focus, and it's not likely that they'll actually risk getting lynched because they didn't read. I'm not willing to give townreads for that. For an example by similar behavior from scum, see gerryoat as scum refusing to read the rules in mechanics-heavy games twice (Inception, Royal Rumble).

Note that Alchemist also said they won't read the pre-game, do you give them towncred?

[Leonshade]

I have reason to believe that whomever is the main character/conftown has a collection of mason buddies. Like ... are you familiar witih the theme?

Akira's role PM explicitly specifies Morgana as Akira's mason. I've played the game, but nothing suggests that the Phantom Thieves are a large mason group (and Varsoon's claim suggests the opposite, unless he was simply lying).

[Leonshade]

I'll be home in an hour. Once I get home, I'd like to see an explanation on why Mulch only has 4 votes on him after that shit he pulled. He threatened to, then claimed and outed a conftownie at the first sight of pressure. That's some scummy shit.

[Leonshade]

So our options are:
1) Mulch is Akechi-kun. This makes him likely antagonistic to groupscum in some way, even if he is a part of groupscum. It would also mean Ann is not in the game and two Phantom Thief roles are resting on one person.
2) Mulch is actually Ann and this whole wagon is pointless.

I see your arguments from the standpoint of pure flavor, but my problem is that it's just that, a flavor-based argument. Which might have more merit in this game, since it's mod-confirmed that flavor and alignment are linked, but you're still trying to outguess the mod and assume what the setup they built is like.

But at the same time he did know who the confTownie is. What are the chances that both

a) scum already knew anyway?

b) scum Mulch used this to get Towncred in a way that's also overly emotional and would obviously make people hate him?

If he's scum I just don't see what good the threat is of revealing the confTown. It was certainly anti-Town but I don't think it comes from scum.

My initial impression is that he was trying to save his ass by putting out information that "only" town know.

I've been mulling over this while typing this post, and I do agree to some extent that Mulch's claim doesn't make too much sense for scum. He was nowhere near a lynch, and his claim would pretty clearly get a lot of negative attention on him. So the claim was probably made out of emotion, not as a planned gambit. The question, then, is why Mulch would be so emotional over four votes? Scum!Mulch would be less likely to get lynched, since his buddies could divert attention from him. After having read Mulch's posts surrounding the claim more carefully, I do now see the potential of him just being a child due to his stated reasons.

But him being third-party also makes a lot of sense. An SK or similar loses the moment they're lynched, and they have no buddies to divert pressure from them, so a wagon is much more threatening to them than to either town or scum. My game as a lyncher (Order of the Stick) was by far the most pressured I've ever been while playing mafia, and it caused me to act scummy, then outright claim when I feared being lynched. And at the risk of outguessing the mod, it does fit neatly with the flavor.

[Leonshade]

I'll have to catch up tomorrow, real life ate up my day and I have plans for tonight.

[Leonshade]

Friday prodge.

[Leonshade]

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'Nam flashbacks to Civ Mafia intensify.

[Leonshade]

I don't want to keep prodging and risk getting disengaged from this game, so let's look at the recent pages.

Why ask a hypothetical that is impossible?

The question was fair, and I don't know why you decided to dodge it. Short of a guilty, Purple being town can't be impossible in your eyes, and considering how a scumread flipping town changes your other reads is pretty basic game solving. This response doesn't help anyone, it only serves to heighten the tension between you and Purple.

The fake gladiate isn’t the only reason for my vote.

I don’t buy why you decided to fake being a gladiator Eddie. You know Math has trouble with social cues and that they got lynched long before that game was over. Way more likely they believed you and didn’t get the subtle jab at all.

There’s also the level of investment shown when you fake claimed. You not only voted for Rational when you did it but wrote a big paragraph to accompany the vote on why you felt they were scum.

I don't see how Eddie's 'level of investment' or decision to fake being a gladiator is scummy. Nobody buys fake day vigs anymore, so if he wanted good reactions, using a different role and putting in more effort to make the claim credible serves that purpose.

[Leonshade]

Oh and I was going to finish my case you but friends said I should like hang out and I had a few beers. Was pretty sure if no one could understand sober Math drunk Math would be insane. Expect more tonight. Because you are very much scum.

Depending on your definition of 'a few beers', I don't know how drunk you really would have been. But nobody is going to blame you for doing something with your time besides playing mafia.

[Leonshade]

Leon, reads on me/rational/luv/nc/mulch/key/ram/elli please. Just do like a sentence each, i don't want cases or anything.

You: leantown, you had that post that was similar to mine on that Drixx post and you've generally displayed decent independent scumhunting thoughts.
Rational; leanscum because of Drixx.
LUV: Null
NC: Null
Mulch: See my previous post on Mulch, 3p/antitown town (or bad scum)
Key: scum, see ISO
Ramcius: Gun to head town, seems like my previous experience on him
Elli: Null, haven't anlyzed the part where he started being active.

[Leonshade]

ugh, i would be lying if i said this post reassured me in your towniness but thx

For context, I mobileposted that, so I condensed things a bit and didn't have my notes (I saw your request but didn't have time to respond to it right away). I can go into more detail if you want to, but I think it's best to save that for when I've read the gaps I'm missing.

For everyone

What would be your 3 favorite wagons?

Key, RN, Mulch if I was forced to choose right now.

[Leonshade]

I don't really feel like reading, but if someone wants to talk, I'll be around for the next hour.

[Leonshade]

I don't have many confident reads yet, due to having so much context missing. I'm reserving Tuesday for catch-up, as I have Tuesday off and I have a long day tomorrow.

[Leonshade]

Ramcius always looks shady as town (shade here defined as scummy, not as in throwing shade), but he feels town to me, increasingly so after the last few pages.

Chara, while I'm catching up, talk to me about Chikorita? MM4 has felt gut town to me, for similar reasons that I townread him in my previous game with him (Clash of the Gods) on.

[Leonshade]

I'm going to sort Yume as town for now, otherwise she's doing an incredibly reckless gambit. "Miller executioner" sounds like a claim that would come from a caught scum executioner out of desperation, it's not something to out on the first Day under zero pressure.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade, how you feeling this game? You seem like the type of dude who should be a tr by now, cute avi and all. But it's not there

I was feeling good about this game early on, but then the thread exploded while I wasn't around, and I've been lagging behind ever since. I don't really like reading huge chunks of text at a time, since I already have to do a lot of that on a daily basis. That's why I try to interact with people in between my catch-ups.

i don't have experience with mm4, can you talk about those towntells? i don't like the hydras play. i'm not sure i have much more to say on the subject beyond what i already have, though.
agreed on Ramcius town.

No specific tells, which is why I said "gut". I can't find my CotG notes at the moment, but in CotG MM4 had this tone of being carefree and not really caring about how he's perceived, while still actively scumhunting. I haven't delved too deep into comparing him in this game to that game, his tone simply felt similar to his town game.

My question to you wasn't so much "CIA is so town, why are you scumreading him", but "CIA doesn't seem scummy to me, why the wagon"? You hadn't really talked about Chikorita much prior to your vote (besides agreeing with Varsoon's case in your Not ISO, as I just saw), so I wanted to know why you wagoned him in particular.

[Leonshade]

Aahhh, forgot about this game.

I don't have a read on any of the top wagons, anyone want to point to a case?

Creature, if you had to pick one of the top wagons, which one would you support? I'm not interested in round #100 of you scumreading Maria in every game.

[Leonshade]

I sorta support both Kise and Smocaine wagons, but I'd choose Smocaine over Kise.

Can you expand on this a bit? What do you not like about Smocaine?

Agreed that I don't want Yume as today's lynch.

[Leonshade]

Following Ellibereth's list:
Kise
PenguinPower
chesskid3
Smocaine

In no particular order.

Is Ellibereth a townread for you?

I'm missing him this game. And when I try to townread him, it keeps reminding me of Gorny at some micro where I tried to townread him and got it wrong.

Ok. This doesn't do much for you, but I do have trust in your PoE abilities.

There's no point in me doing a full catch-up at this point, but I can laser-focus on figuring out which top wagon is the best.

[Leonshade]

now i don't want to lynch Smocaine or Elli, for what it's worth. that's why i picked Kise.
bye for now.

When you get back, could you expand on your reads on all three?

You've been doing a lot more of "X is town, X is scum" recently, and it has me worried. Your thought process is usually much more fleshed out and easier to follow.

I think I'm willing to give Elli a pass if Creature townreads him. 2486 rubs me the wrong way, on account of essentially dodging the question, but skimming through the meta Elli linked, this appears to fit with his town tone. And it would be counter-productive for scum to make a post like that when they're one of the top wagons.

P-edit: Alright.

[Leonshade]

Ann(e) Takamaki is not receiving a Traitor role. Sorry. Won't ever believe it.

So, Mulch may be bad town, but is not scum unless someone cc's that claim.

Ann(e) Takamaki is not receiving a Traitor role. Sorry. Won't ever believe it.

So, Mulch may be bad town, but is not scum unless someone cc's that claim.

scum get fakeclaims dude

Ann is not going to be a fake claim. At all.

I don't think any role can be excluded from being a fakeclaim besides Akira.

I find it extremely hard to believe that one of the original PTs would be a fake claim given the opening game circumstances and Ali relying on flavor being alignment indicative. Anyone else, sure, but not the first three.

I was going to bring this up in my 'post catch-up reads list', but since that won't happen, I just want to bring them up before I forget. These posts pinged me about Penguin post-Mulch claim. Penguin's reasoning for dismissing the possibility of Mulch being scum is piss-poor, and I think it's reminiscent of scum making excuses for not jumping onto their buddy's wagon. It was one of the reasons, along with my kneejerk reaction, as to why I was initially convinced that Mulch had scumclaimed. If Mulch does turn out to be scum, I think Penguin is a strong candidate for a buddy (and possibly vice versa).

[Leonshade]

I'd add Lil Uzi Vert, Varsoon, Alchemist21, xRECKONERx, Maki and Kaito and Chara to my watchlist.

Out of these, the only one I'd take off the list is Varsoon. I think there's been odd parts to his play, like suggesting, then immediately dismissing a gambit to out all the Phantom Thieves, but overall I think those oddities are more likely to come from town than scum.

Do you think Penguin can be scum independently from Mulch?

Possibly, but if Mulch flipped town, I would consider those Penguin posts null. They're only scummy as an associative, as I don't think scum!Penguin would have any special incentive to stay off the Mulch wagon, especially on such poor reasoning.

[Leonshade]

here lemme give you an example

leon, you seem pretty competent

iso kise, do you see faked shit?

I figured that I'd have to ISO Kise anyway, so I kept this in mind while doing so. Here are posts that stood out to me:

710: This post bothers me a bit. Kise is flavor speccing, but he seems to put too much emphasis on the fact that he doesn't actually have full knowledge of the flavor. It's like he wants to float the idea that there's a traitor, while simultaneously giving himself plausible deniability that his spec might be correct. The post is essentially meaningless noise when taken at face value, but I don't like the fact that he's so insistent on giving himself breathing room to backtrack on the speculation.

765: The major contents of Kise's catch-up notes are just events that have happened. They're descriptive, with no analysis. In mafiascum terms, Information Instead of Analysis.

1140: Let's start off with the fact that Kise displays self-awareness of the fact that this post will be considered scummy, which is a negative in and of itself. Outside of that, what is Kise's motivation for outing his speculation on town players? If he's group scum, he wouldn't really have a reason to out this spec in the main thread, instead of in the scum PT. Outing town PRs is obviously anti-town, but that's why it usually doesn't come from scum. But what motivation does town!Kise have to out this speculation?

Kise could be town being silly or scum playing lynchbait, but I think the speculation especially fits the MO of a traitor. Letting the scumteam know who the town PRs might be, presenting it as town VI behavior, seems like a reasonable action coming from a traitor, more so than from any other alignment/role. Reading 710 with this in mind, Kise might've been signalling the fact that he's a traitor early on.

Given the fact that a traitor fits the flavor incredibly well, I think there's a very real possibility that Kise is the traitor.

1299: I think the reasoning for Elli being scum here is pretty weak. "Only" two scumreads isn't evidence towards them being a scum, especially when Elli had already posted a PoE list of his other scumreads at this point.

1302: The reasoning for LUV being a lurking PR is weak, there doesn't seem to be any thought into the possibility that he's lurking scum, or just lurking town. This might also be more likely to come from scum that is PR-hunting.

1420: Hoooo boy. This is the part of the ISO where Kise really starts forcing a tone that doesn't seem genuine at all. I think the best way to describe it is fake bravado mixed in with an attempt to be light-hearted and humorous.

Ignoring the tone for a moment, this line stood out to me:

You look like someone who's scared to be buddyless. You arready fucked up saying chess isn't obvtown and Dan isn't here to posse up with you either. You just gon have to come see me by yourself

Kise calls Elli "buddyless". Group scum have buddies, and even if we give Kise doesn't mean the term as used in mafia jargon, a scum player would never actually be alone. This could Kise slipping the fact that he knows Elli doesn't have buddies.

After 1420, there are other posts that I would consider fake as far as tone goes, but I don't actually consider that all too relevant to my read on Kise. The tone could just as easily come from town that is trying to force a "funny" tone to their posts. But with the other points I've brought up, and with the fact that I don't really see a reason to think that Kise is town, Kise looks like an attractive wagon choice to me.

[Leonshade]

I was going to analyze the Smocaine wagon, but I see that there's no reason to bother.

VOTE: Kise

[Leonshade]

I was going to analyze the Smocaine ISO, but I see that there's no reason to bother.

VOTE: Kise

EBWOP.

Anyone else think that Mulch screaming about Kise being town looks like a buddy's desperate effort to stop the wagon?

P-edit: Uhh?

[Leonshade]

So you can hammer with a FOS? Why did you choose to quickhammer?

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Mulch

More after lectures.

[Leonshade]

SOMEONE FORCED ME TO TARGET EITHER A PARTICULAR PERSON OR NOONE AT ALL WITH MY ABILITY LAST NIGHT LOL

This happened to me last night, won't claim more details for obvious reasons.

PenguinPower has been sent a Calling Card and is lynchproof for the day.

External words: Nice shot, dave.

Internal monologue: I've still got it!

[Leonshade]

I guess I'll make this easy.

Gladiate: Creature

u wot m8

This thread needs a babysitter, I go to sleep and someone shits the bed.

I don't think there's a conceivable world in which Creature is scum in this game, but Varsoon probably isn't scum, either, unless scum decided to send him on a suicide gambit to take out Creature.

[Leonshade]

Spoiler: Artist's interpretation of Varsoon's ISO

I'm almost certain that Varsoon is town, but between Varsoon's PR and Creature being obvtown, too, we're just choosing between the lesser of two evils today.

@Alisae: Can we choose to no-lynch? If we reach the deadline with no votes on either player, what happens?

[Leonshade]

Creature shouldn't claim unless we make a definitive decision to lynch him instead of Varsoon.

[Leonshade]

And this person is allowed to play mafia games why? Either meta is trash or you are all basically condoning his gamethrowing whenever he rolls scum to preserve his town meta?

When Creature stops being readable through meta, I (and everyone else) will stop doing so. Until that day comes, I'll read him through meta. Creature is town.

[Leonshade]

And now we wait.

[Leonshade]

Hi.

Bye.

[Leonshade]

11 more hours, get hyped!

[Leonshade]

I blame you tbh.

Shut up and die

I wonder how Ali feels about how this game has been going

Either in awe of a great town performance, or ashamed of a bad scumteam. Probably the latter.

To be honest I don't have any scumreads left, besides a lingering one on Brian Skies from Key's time with the slot. But we have plenty of time to figure it out.

[Leonshade]

@Brian Skies:

If you are the crier, you just outed yourself by bolding yourself in green in that vote count. You might as well confirm or deny this (and yes, it will affect my read on you).

[Leonshade]

Welcome back, you were missed.

[Leonshade]

SNEAK PREVIEW OF ELLI'S GUIDE AT NOT BREEDING AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE SCUM CAN GO DERP DERP OOPS DIDN'T READ HAHAHAHAHA TOWNSLIP LUL FROM THE PRINCETON REVIEW MAFIA GUIDE

1) READ MOD POSTS

Stop teasing, we want the plan!

[Leonshade]

Here's my winning plan: everyone stops soloing and we sheep Ellibereth to victory. Hero ball led us to a wasted day and outed, and subsequently killed PRs.

[Leonshade]

Cool on the plan, nah on targeting Purp Nurp.

About to step on a plane, next post I'll be coming to you live from London.

[Leonshade]

About to step on a plane, next post I'll be coming to you live from London.

I lied, I'm not in London anymore. Gotta throw them off my trail.

[Leonshade]

Show me... PURPLE NURPLE!

[Leonshade]

I lied, I'm not in London anymore. Gotta throw them off my trail.

Only saw the airport.

[Leonshade]

From Purple Nurple's reaction test on Elli, even disregarding all reads, we can conclude that only the following options remain:

1) Elli is town
2) Elli and Purp Nurp are scum together
3) Elli is scum without a killing ability

2 goes completely against my reads, 3 is already unlikely and I TR Elli anyway, so we can conclude that Elli is probably town.

[Leonshade]

I'm Hifumi Togo, Star Arcana. Not a PT. Default location is the Real World.

I'm a 1-Shot Conditional Commuter Self-Watching Self-Voyeur. I automatically commute the first time I'm (assuming that the killing action would kill me, so if I'm docced I wouldn't commute). Regardless of location, I have a voyeur and watcher on myself on all actions targeting me in the metaverse at night. The second ability doesn't work if I'm commuting.

I can't actually move to the metaverse through my role, so the "regardless of location" in my role PM made me think that there are roles that can transport me to the metaverse.

N1, I was targeted by Creature. I was targeted by a protective action (my self-watcher and self-voyeur are technically separate actions, so if multiple people visited me, I wouldn't know who used what ability). N2, at the start of night, I got a message that I've been requested to target Purple Nurple, and that I'd be roleblocked if I didn't target him. But since I don't have an active ability, I didn't target him. N3, Alisae told me that I can make a last will.

[Leonshade]

Your turn, shogikid.

[Leonshade]

Prodge for the next 24 hours.

for the 2nd time someone claimed the u must target blahblah day 2. iffr who but this is quite scrambly by toranaga

That was me, if I'm interpreting this correctly. Was told to target Purp Nurp.

[Leonshade]

Gah, I'm here.

Are we waiting for something, or is there just no town unity at the moment? I've seen Elli's POE list, does everyone agree with it? If not, why not? If so, why aren't people consolidating onto a wagon? Eight people not voting is too much.

Brian Skies being cleared also clears up lingering D1 scumread (though it wasn't a read I was pursuing anymore, either). Purple Nurple is town, Elli is town, and if Elli, is town, I'm willing to take him at his word that Smocaine is town. I'll be focusing on Toranaga, RN, chesskid and Chara.

[Leonshade]

Alternatively Elli tells us who is scum and I case them until everyone sheeps the read.

[Leonshade]

I don't remember either of you bleeding town.

[Leonshade]

"I will do something later, but not now."
- Everyone in this game D4.

Anyway, I will do something later, but not now.

[Leonshade]

I'm Hifumi Togo, Star Arcana. Not a PT. Default location is the Real World.

I'm a 1-Shot Conditional Commuter Self-Watching Self-Voyeur. I automatically commute the first time I'm (assuming that the killing action would kill me, so if I'm docced I wouldn't commute). Regardless of location, I have a voyeur and watcher on myself on all actions targeting me in the metaverse at night. The second ability doesn't work if I'm commuting.

I can't actually move to the metaverse through my role, so the "regardless of location" in my role PM made me think that there are roles that can transport me to the metaverse.

What's the name of your ability and what do your abilities have to do with your character?

The name of my self-watcher self-voyeur is Strategizing, whereas my self-commute is Unbeatable. There's no flavor for my abilities besides the name, so I don't know how to answer your second question.

Leonshade claim is still incredibly sketchy and I have a hard time seeing that come from town.

What do you consider sketchy about it? I assume you mean the role, since I just claimed during the massclaim.

If someone is mapping out night actions, then Toranaga should probably BG someone tonight.

If someone is mapping night actions, they should be conftown, to stop the potential of scum influencing the plan. To take a page out of Vecna from Civ Mafia, we should all agree to who is doing the plan, and we should all agree to follow it before the plan is revealed, with deviation from the plan viewed as a scumclaim. Giving any wiggle room allows scum to do what is best for them, and to claim that they did what they thought was better or "forgot" to follow the plan.

Also keep in mind that there's the redirection that has targeted Elli & me, so we need to account for one role being negated.

[Leonshade]

What do you consider sketchy about it? I assume you mean the role, since I just claimed during the massclaim.

I don't think it makes any sense for your character to be able to see Metaverse actions performed on them. She's neither a Phantom Thief nor resides in the Metaverse, so I don't see how she'd be aware of them.

You mean from a flavor or mechanical perspective? From a mechanical perspective, my role literally wouldn't work if I couldn't see abilities targeting me in the metaverse. As far as flavor, I don't know.

P-edit: Ahh, ok. Scum are given fakeclaims, so I don't see why you consider flavor relevant.

[Leonshade]

We could just lynch based on play, not setup spec. Massclaim shouldn't mean we stop reading people.

[Leonshade]

if u want to go into ability spec the scummiest claimed ability is ramcius

In what way? I had to look it p since I forgot what he claimed, and it's a doc/doc inventor?

[Leonshade]

doc with a dead doc and from the looks of it a very townsided setup based on claims and flips.

also his play was scummy

Multiple protectives are standard in a big game, and I think the perspective on town power is skewed, since so many scum died early on. Kise and Mulch both had really powerful roles.

Ramcius's play always looks scummy, or rather people think it does.

[Leonshade]

I was hoping to sheep Elli, not to defend myself from him.

So what's up? Why the vote?

[Leonshade]

Leon cased Kise? idk

I also voted Mulch, and I pointed out that Penguin's reactions to Mulch's claims looked like a buddy's reaction.

[Leonshade]

So does anyone mind if I take over for town leader? The current one is broken.

[Leonshade]

OK, we've got 4 days and I need to expend my reading energy for my essay for the next 2, so let's talk this out. Everyone that isn't confirmed town needs to take a position on who is the most likely scum, and who their most likely partner or partners are. Conftownies can also do this, but the point of this exercise is to get a decent lynch we can all agree on, and to get people to commit on some kind of stance on who they're willing to lynch. Scum can't afford to lose more of their number if they want to have a realistic chance, so we need to back them into a corner where they might be forced to either bus, or to hard defend their buddy.

If you don't have a reasoned opinion, go with your gut. But don't claim to choose randomly, you should have some sort of opinion at this point if you're the least bit engaged.

For the most likely scum in the PoE, I've got Toranaga. His posts upon realizing that he's in the PoE were pretty flaily, like he was trying to get any non-Tora theory to stick before he would actually be at risk of getting lynched. Town can also fail while trying to sort a game, but Tora's posts seem more panicky and survivalistic than simply stream-of-consciousness problem solving. He's more worried about getting lynched than a townie in this game state should be.

If Toranaga flips scum, the most likely scum out of the PoE is Chara. While Tora was throwing out ideas for scum, he threw out everyone of me/RN/chess, but not Chara. He pays lip service to scumreading Chara:

the one slot I'm mildly suspicious on and could see myself voting eventually is chara. I think chara is relatively towny but going through the motions and I'm not very satisfied with using the track on brian skies.

But it's so soft and hedgy that it's nothing Tora would have to commit to. On the other hand, Chara had a scumread on LUV, but post-massclaim,
it's had nothing but lip service towards scum!Tora, and kind of a weak excuse to not push for the lynch today:

You kinda just have to open our Iso and you'd see for yourself plus we're basically conf town.

Who do you think is scum with how the info we've gathered today?

Toranaga the tryhard replacement and Chara if i had a gun to my head

I also cant assuage my gut scumread on ramcius but I've been ignoring flavor stuff so

rude. :<

seriousness though, i could do Toranaga.

I'm JOAT tonight, my NAs are all more or less confirmed (even by you) and I'm not scummy at all.

i could do Toranaga.

Chara (01:13) can i film it??

i hate you.

Toranaga: hm, fair. one more night then.
but what does you being confirmed as a Last Will Inventor (obviously you are) have to do with you not being scum?

There's also this sudden 180, though Chara doubting themselves for weird reasons is actually pretty common for town!Chara.

And that's the last effortpost I'll make for the next 2 days or more, do my exercise or sheep me.

VOTE: Toranaga

[Leonshade]

it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts

[Leonshade]

The setup was great and scum had good powers, shame about us shooting ourselves in the foot.

And Elli wrecking us.

Elli how many town games have you had here? Thinking about a paragon nom.

[Leonshade]

I can't believe that my case on Kise was the tipping point to get him lynched. That lynch snowballed into our loss.

I will never bus again.

[Leonshade]

if i had two dayvigs and i was in the same game with stalin, hitler and u, id shoot u twice

[Leonshade]

Haru deserves better than to be a fakeclaim, despite mean-spirited slander about her supposedly being the least interesting PT.

[Leonshade]