Designer Mafia 2007 - Game Over, Final Scene Posted!

[Shanba]

Hi everyone. Let's lynch scopey.

Vote: Kaleidoscope

[Shanba]

Actually, the thing that immediately sprang to mind when I read that was the post restriction games, specifically Small Furde Guy who was a townie who powered up based on how many people said Small Furde.

However, I could see a similar mechanic for scum (or a cult) and as such I think the best thing to do is work out Thyroid's alignment before we commit.

[Shanba]

The only reason I'm not quoting it here and now is I feel a role that powers up based on how many people quote works for both town and scum. Statistically, he's more likely to be town (and I don't see anything that makes me think he is scum at this time), so I may well be quoting the Ren Faire thing by the end of the day.

[Shanba]

Agreed. The Thyroid one is just silly, and I'm not sure what the Nocmen one is based on.

[Shanba]

Unvote

Twomz - why?

[Shanba]

Urm, no. Try again.

[Shanba]

Bloody hell. This wagon on thyroid is beyond ridiculous into the scummy now.

Vote: foolinc

who's vote is the most convenient on the whole wagon.

[Shanba]

What, you mean like how you posted content with yours?

[Shanba]

No, I was asking you how you could question the content in his vote post when the content in yours amounts to "X is scummy. Vote x"

Also, I'm curious about this. Just what do you believe I was being hyposcritical about?

[Shanba]

I am not a fan of Thyroid's play, especially on the whole fair thing. Hopefully, some more pressure will clear this situation up.

Vote: Thyroid

This is what you said. "I don't like Thyroid's play" is equivalent to "X is scummy". Your explanation of your vote amounts to, therefore, "the whole fair thing". That's not explanation, and no, I don't see a great deal of difference between that and a simple "vote: x"

And no, my vote on you contained much more content that your post.

[Shanba]

Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!

[Shanba]

so uhm

what now?

[Shanba]

meep meep.

Agreed

[Shanba]

Meh. I like the way he's defended himself, and I like the way he's scumhunted, and furthermore, I don't think trusting him is going to throw the game away even if he is scum.

[Shanba]

He deconstructed scenarios proposing him as an anti-town role, he's built a nice little case on foolinc above, he's attacked stark - yes, he's been scumhunting and defending himself.

[Shanba]

He deconstructed scenarios proposing him as an anti-town role, he's built a nice little case on foolinc above, he's attacked stark - yes, he's been scumhunting and defending himself.

he's attacked 3 people that are (or were) voting for him.


thats known as OMGUS.

He's done so for logical reasons (even if I don't agree with him on stark, for example.) It's not therefore OMGUS.

[Shanba]

hi thyroid's scumbuddy

Nice...

[Shanba]

hey look I'm scum hunting guys. YAY, i'm just as much not scum as thyroid. aren't i smart. FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP

seriously...

[Shanba]

Thankees. As a birthday gift, a foolinc wagon? ^^

[Shanba]

Actually, I don't feel that you're likely scum at this point. Although I do feel you are highly misguided.

[Shanba]

Interesting. Except, metas aren't very useful unless you can provide specific examples.

[Shanba]

I think jediknight's post explains Nocmen's role - at the very least, it's probably the one he designed. I can't imagine two players both designing roles with meeps. Although, as he said, it does not clear Nocmen, as it is possible it has been altered. It does prove he has a PR though.

Which makes me think. Someone else must know thyroid's role - presumably someone designed it. If that person knows what it does, they shouldn't claim it - but they should at least tell us whether it will help the town or not.

[Shanba]

Zone: I need not explain myself, nor should the explaination be inobvious; I'm voting you for the same reason I was voting foolinc for, only moreso. Near as I can tell, you're the player who pushed Thyroidectomy's bandwagon farthest and longest; in fact, you're still on it. I don't think "logicless" means what you think it does.

And...opportunism? Going from a 5 person bandwagon that just grew to a 3 person (now 4) bandwagon? A bit omgusish of you.

Hrm.

mneme, your sole goal in life seems to be to protect thyroid. This seems odd. I also believe thyroid is innocent, but people are not immediately suspicious for pushing an innocent bandwagon, nor is it proven that thyroid is innocent. I don't see therefore what the basis of your vote on ZA is - do you think his vote on the thyroid bandwagon is more likely to be a scum vote? Cause I don't. The fact that he still has his vote on thyroid long after the wagon has lost steam indicates more that he believes what he's saying than that he is scum. Compared to foolinc, who just jumped on when the bandwagon was going strong with the excuse of "pressure", ZA's vote practically smells of roses.

[Shanba]

If we can avoid triggering the PR, that's useful no matter his alignment.

[Shanba]

Ok. Jediknight, what were the mechanics of the PR in the role you designed?

[Shanba]

Eh. I think it's pretty clear why schis was voting ckd. But that's still a crap reason.

[Shanba]

Aimee is limited access sitewide. She's lurking in all her games currently. She prob needs a replacement.

[Shanba]

Since I'm no sure I have, and since it makes sense to give him as much choice as possible, Nocmen.

[Shanba]

Hey flea - way to ignore the whole bandwagons on Thyroid, foolinc and schismatised. Pretty sure they qualify as something else. Your criticism of everyone whilst saying absolutely nothing about who you believe is scum is noted too.

[Shanba]

I have theories about Nocmen's role. I don't think he's scum. I think the people pushing him because of his PR are as bad as if not worse than the people pushing thyroid because of his PR. I mean, srsly.

Also, I got prodded. Where has my beautiful foolinc wagon gone?

[Shanba]

Post to not get replaced, because I now have more time and it would be a shame.

I agree with TSS over Nocmen

[Shanba]

nocmen is not scum, at least not for the reason jdodge is stating. I'm totally confused over Schism. Half the town is saying that he's playing like he always does, the rest is saying he's playing like scum. There's no real consensus so I'm just going to assume the case is mostly hot air. I still like my foolinc vote.

[Shanba]

I suddenly have this warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

[Shanba]

King Shanba will gladly hear the whims of his most tiny and uninteresting subjects. King Shanba believes, however, that the masses should listen to him, as he is king, and divine right of kings and all that.

Seriously though, please keep discussing, feeding ideas. I doubt the kingship will last long.

[Shanba]

I think jediknight claimed it yesterday.

[Shanba]

Alright, first things first, I'mma do something unconventional.

I want everyone's reactions to the kills.

[Shanba]

Alright, first things first, I'mma do something unconventional.

I want everyone's reactions to the kills.

Twomz's kill seems random.
TSS's death doesn't look like a "kill", TBH.

More detail on tss?

[Shanba]

ok, cool. I want more reactions to the kills, subjects!

[Shanba]

Nocmen

[Shanba]

TBH I'm more interested in what you think of the choice of target/roles of the dead

[Shanba]

ok look.

Perhaps I ought to be more specific. I want specifcally reactions to the tss/schism deaths. I want people to tell what consequences they think they have etc. Yes thi has a point and yes it will be revealed before dayend.

[Shanba]

Nocmen -_-

[Shanba]

The power to dig for information.

Not as far as I'm aware. I did not make myself king.

[Shanba]

What would be the point of having a scum come back to life?

[Shanba]

Thankees!

Thesilentspeaker. I want your side of the story now.

[Shanba]

No, he isn't.

[Shanba]

Role info. He's not actually dead, nor is that his role. I thought it would be interesting to use the opportunity to dig for info, but it didn't work out too well.

[Shanba]

Shamba: you're saying you "removed" tss from the game for today, marking him as scum, as an info gambit? But he can post, and isn't necessarily scum? Interesting.

Not exactly. But pretty damn close for a shot in the dark

[Shanba]

Mostly because I honestly do think he's scum. I'll present a case on him tomorrow.

[Shanba]

yes, the kill description was my own choice too

[Shanba]

why are you telling us this before you learned anything?

The discussion was more distracting than helpful.

Thyroid: ZONEACE may well be scum, I dunno, I've lost track of things recently. All I remember is tss/foolinc being scummy.

[Shanba]

Like, seriously.

Why are we executing Nocmen? I don't think so. We have one person who's claimed to have submitted this role. Therefore, any inconsistencies in Nocmen's pr should also reflect back on jediknight, because the only way he is faking the thing entirely is if jediknight is his scumbuddy. It doesn't stop Nocmen being scum, as it's possible the role is a scum one - but it does undermine any arguments against Nocmen on the basis of his pr unless you can see a good reason why jediknight would link himself to a scumbuddy day 1.

[Shanba]

Oman - do you have anything of content to say?

Kscope reads vaguely town, looking back at his posts.

To all you anti-Nocmen people:

Well, let's see:

p1:

3 meeps posts from nocmen. Quoting him apparenlty doesn't count.

schiz mentions his name.
aimee mentions his name.

p2:

nocmen talks normally.
nocmen talks normally

fl sez nocmen x2
twomz sez nocmen
I say nocmen
(battlemage -may- say nocmen -- a screwed up vote with semicolons instead of colons)

nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally

p3:

nocmen talks normally
I say nocmen
nocmen meeps
nocmen talks normally

p4:

nocmen talks normally
thyroid says nocmen x2

p5:

nocmen talks normally
bamboo mentions nocmen x2
stark mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
nocmen meeps
avalon mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
tornado mentions nocmen
schitz mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally.

Looking at every incidence of someone mentioning nocmen -not- in a vote and not as part of a quote tag (either &#005b;quote="Nocmen"] or as the body of the tag), it does look like nocmen has obeyed the post restriction "must not post normally more often than your name is mentioned".

If Twomz were to turn out to be scum, I'd be a bit more suspicous, natch.

Was this true and does this pattern still hold? I want at least one of you (preferably jdodge, as he's the one who's pushing the wagon) to prove to me that this wagon is not being pushed on a false premise.

jediknight reads as annoyingly passive town, especially his speculation on the tss thing. Wooh, I did get some info. Belgarion's reaction reads town too (less so)

Nightson is in this game? Replaced Aimee.

I don't like the Nocmen wagon at the moment.

The foolinc and schism wagons are better (I may switch my vote to Schism after I re-read and analyse).

Dislike this post.

LoE:

Oman, Nightson. Possibly tss. Possibly Nocmen if someone can convince me (don't hold your breath)

[Shanba]

oh, we are still doing vote counts...well, put me down for

vote nocmen

didnt like his play day 1...didnt like his assocaition (or lack there of) with schis.

wonder if the king will listen to the will of his people?

Not when the people are being retarded.

Oman, claimordie.

[Shanba]

Not listening to your people is the sign of a terrible despot, comrade Shanba.


Why Oman?

Read Oman's posts.

Also, I cannot for the life of me understand the attack on Nocmen. I'm not going to do something just because the people demand it if I don't think it's the right thing to do.

Perhaps I'm just mad with power.

[Shanba]

Hrm.

I think I see the case now. TBH, though, I'm still ambivalent. I dispute the validity of

ANyone curious why his PR is not constant?

which I believe is a myth propagated by Jdodge. It is interesting that schis didn't actually vote Nocmen, but eh. He seemed to be following a policy at the time of sabotage Thyroid's ticket selling, rather than going after those he thought he could lynch.

I also don't think it's obvious. I don't think 1 set of posts from schis is enough to cement anything. I

don't

like the way he's rushed to me for support when it looked like I would help him out.

I'll add him to the LoE.

I see no “retarded” reasons here.

This is referring to the PR thing, which I'm still 97% sure is a red herring.

The other thing that worries me is a few votes on the wagon that strike me as opportunistic.

LoE: Nocmen, Oman, Nightson

@Stark: General impression. See if you can find anything interesting that he's added to the conversation. Heck, see if you can find anything he's added at all. I also dislike a few of his individual posts, one especially seems out of place.

Oman: claimordie retracted. For a bit.

[Shanba]

Shanba, executing Nocmen after being assured he was town, and even then to put Oman in your execution list, is highly, highly suspect. In fact, it reminds me a bit of pj's performance in Kingmaker II

Eh.

I was not convinced that Nocmen was town. I was convinced that the only angle I saw people attacking him from, that is, the PR thing, was bullcrap. I'm still sure of that.

Oman has been on my execution list since the beginning of the day, and is still there. Did you mean Nocmen? If that's the case, then I clearly stated that if someone could show me a half decent case, I would put him on the LoE. Belgarion has done that.

Oman: Not atm. Investigating other possibilities. Keep in mind that you're suspect no1 though.

[Shanba]

Schism is scum.

I haven't read the thread, so don't take that too heavily.

This was Oman's first post. This is also, strangely enough, my biggest issue with him being scum. It seems to me unlikely that a scum, especially an experienced player like Oman would refer to a scumbuddy like that in his first post of the game. Not impossible, but there's no real logical reason for him to do so.

This is his next post:

Where has my beautiful foolinc wagon gone?

QFT

Shanba is win.

It seems fairly out of left field to me. I don't get it. This is his only reference to foolinc, and he doesn't vote for him, or indicate any suspicion, except to affirm that he agrees with me.

He then has a small tiff with schismatized, making some small point about how he thinks schism should be smarter than this on kscope.

so your condoning his behavior until you lynch an innocent townie and can figure out a reputable defense/scapegoat

Don't put words into my mouth.

I just believe that wagoning is not a scumtell on face value. I mean, my early play was wagon wagon wagon regardless of alignment.

My point about alignments is that if Kscope is on EVERY wagon, there is no connections to be found (i.e. rejecting a scumbuddies wagon).

He continues to argue with schismatized, but there's no vote - this worries me. (It's like the thing that Belgarion brought up with Nocmen, (with the same caveat that alone it is not conclusive))

Then there's the rest of his posts. He's not exactly posting frequently, so you'd hope he would post something useful in each post. But...

Vote Simenon

Razz

(also lost)

Rawr?

Quick someone nominate him for "meep" title. [/sarcasm]

This thread is less interesting than site ideas.

jediknight, I'm sorta throwing my vote around as they don't count.

UA has two votes up though, so I can vote for as many people as I want?

Vote Nocmen, vote Nocmen

This is also interspersed with casual defences of players. This is very easy for scum to do. He can state his disagreement with lynches on townies and get easy brownie points, especially when he doesn't but a whole lot of effort into making these defences:

Its interesting, but nothing big until we get an alignment. I will review it later.

Its a rookie mistake.

I just believe that wagoning is not a scumtell on face value. I mean, my early play was wagon wagon wagon regardless of alignment.

My point about alignments is that if Kscope is on EVERY wagon, there is no connections to be found (i.e. rejecting a scumbuddies wagon).

Then there's the Nocmen vote. One of the issues I have with the Nocmen wagon is just how easy it feels. Now, that does not preclude him being scum - it could be that his partners are bussing, or inactive, or lurking, or whatever. However, easy wagons always worry me. As to why I dislike Oman's vote:

It's a very, very easy vote to make. For one, it's on a very well accepted wagon. His hop on it puts him in good company. For a second, we have the kingmaker mechanic. This means that his vote has no consequences - if the Nocmen lynch is a mislynch, suspicion falls on the king. And it gets worse, too, because it becomes a dilemna for the king - stark's comments are true, to an extent. If he ignores the people, then he gets suspected, especially if he kills a townie. It adds to the bulk of the Nocmen wagon and thus the pressure on the king to act on it.

Thusly I disagree with flea.

And thusly I think Oman is likely scum.

[Shanba]

Stark looks very town-like to me so far.

Because he's just been swayed by me not to attack you?

:\

[Shanba]

So unless Shanba wants to volunteer to execute himself, who would you like to see killed, Thyroid?

I think it's perfectly valid for me to criticize the king. While I have supported Shanba through this whole game, I feel he is doing a terrible job as king.

Alright - that's your prerogative. My goal has been to try and gather as much information today as possible, given I have control over what happens. Thing haven't really worked out, though.

Who do I want to kill? Two people.

First is ZONEACE, for his general apathetic attitude, his lack even paying a bit of attention to schis, and his bumbling right before my lynch.

Interesting. I'll go have a look at schis. Are there any posts in particular you think are interesting?

The second is the author of this post:

Well done sir.

Go for it.

I was on the Nocmen wagon, but seeing this has convinced me.

This is indicating scum for me.

TBH, I think I see your point, though Nocmen's reaction to it is just as worrying to me.

@Oman: Eh. Is that your claim? If you're going to claim, please do so outright. What bonuses do you get? (Something else crosses my mind - if you hadn't read the thread, how did you know schis was the biggest wagon? :\)

Thyroid - what do you think of Oman? What do you think of Nocmen? There's a reason for both of these, which should be reasonably obvious.

[Shanba]

Alright, I'mma come to a decision soon.

Remove Nocmen from the LoE

Need to narrow it down for myself.

[Shanba]

I'm leaning towards executing Nightson for his and his predecessor's actions, few though they may be, they read scummy to me.

Note to self - re read Schism tomorrow. I think I'm getting bad vibes.

I don't like the Nocmen wagon at the moment.

The foolinc and schism wagons are better (I may switch my vote to Schism after I re-read and analyse)

I will hopefully be able to get to reading tomorrowish, Holidays are busy.

19 days later:

vote:nocmen

[Shanba]

Screw it then

Execute: Nightson

[Shanba]

I have no regrets about my decision.

[Shanba]

Hum. I'm surprised. I was pretty sure I'd be being strung up at this point.

Oman, should you not have a fuckton of votes right now? Please demonstrate or die messily.

[Shanba]

Oh crap yeah, I made myself look dead last night. I'm unsure as to why it was copied to Nocmen, though.

[Shanba]

With 16 players alive, someone's a doublevoter...

wait wait wait...

fuck.

9 is a majority of 16, as MoS stated. However, there should be 17 people alive - neither tss nor I are listed in the player list, which counting it reaches 15. So we have a missing vote, or a missing player. Something doesn't add up.

[Shanba]

Well, I don't think the claim was bad, I just don't like the idea of him outing someone who's just as likely to be vig as scum.

I didn't want to say it, but now that it has been said I might as well.

Jdodge is likely to be a vig. I cannot conceive scum Jdodge killing Nocmen. Kscope is likely to be another power role. I don't think Kscope would have claimed that if he was scum (he tends to be a rather safe scum player.) By Kscope outing himself, he's put two nightkill targets on two possible power roles when it was entirely unecessary, and made it possible for Jdodge to be lynched. (hint: he shouldn't.)

Here's an extremely obvious situation to any vig who isn't Jdodge: Shoot him tonight, as you now know that he's scum.

But I don't think that will happen, because I believe Jdodge to be a vig, if we have one.

I agree with the substance of this - it came as a large surprise to me that Nocmen was dead with apparently no other kills (except my fake one, and a fake of my fake). There is, however, the matter of the missing kill. If Jdodge is a vig, and twomz, who all but claimed doc, was dead that night, how was the kill stopped?

[Shanba]

Vote: Belgarion

Oman, I expect you either to doublevote in your next post or give an explanation as to why you cannot today.

This jdodge wagon is pretty awful.

[Shanba]

@ckd: A couple, but they're both somewhat subjective and not accusations that will lead anywhere except distraction, so I just want to let it be known that I suspect him. If you really want me to, I'll fess up, but it's not an argument I really want to get into atm.

It's bad to think that he is lying about being a one shot vig with his other ability and is really mafia? The only kill last night that I can see is the nocmen kill... although I'm confused about the clone and your leaving town or w/e. So even if you want to argue that there is a vig, that would be the only other killing role beyond the mafia... and I doubt it would be one shot with another ability (unless there are others with one shot kills... but that seems... silly I guess would be the best way to put it).

I'm not sure I really get your argument.

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag. And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him, and a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch). Now, it is still possible that he killed him with the gambit in mind, but it's unlikely.

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either. I know at least one of the roles I submitted could have caused it - granted, it's unlikely, but less so than Jdodge randomly killing Nocmen.

[Shanba]

The thing is you COULD play WIFOM on whether JDodge would kill Nocmen as scum. The evidence to me points at him being scum, and who is to say that the rest of the mafia didn't all agree on killing Nocmen and JDodge just happened to be the one who was sent in with the kill?

That's not the point, though. Why would they do it? There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen, but as far as I can see, it takes a laboured interpretation to give the mafia a motive to kill him.

[Shanba]

Shanba, is the vote for..

wow, DOWN WITH THE KING!

Partly this, but not for the reason you think.

or the fact I thought Noc was scum?

No, not really, except for residual suspicion of what read as a bad wagon - with the sidenote again that you at least explained yourself. So no, not that.

why dont you like the BW on DOdge?

I've explained that already. I think it's stupidly stretched as an idea.

[Shanba]

No...i assume they all count.

Whats my total qft's now?

I'll get the votes tomorrow.

qft

[Shanba]

you have a one day leave of absence.

No double vote tomorrow = death, kk?

[Shanba]

well, I havent given the role fully, but I thought it was important because how many multi-voters can there be in a game like this. How many multi-voters can there be on one side?

Can you prove that you can multivote?

[Shanba]

Shanba, stop role fishing please. Belgarion is controlled by another player, so that player (the main one) has 2 votes because he has control of 2 players.

No look. If that's his role, then it's unlikely he has any incredible powers we need to keep hidden from the mafia. As such, I'd like to know who his other account is, for various reasons - one, to prove he's telling the truth about his role, two to compare his behaviour with the different accounts and see if the other account is acting scummy - at the moment, we're only working with half the evidence we could be on him, and that annoys me. Also, there may be things that are more interesting in conjunction with actions from his other role - perhaps he set one to bussing and the other to trying to deflect the wagon on schism?

Regardless, JDodge should die. And Shanba should explain why he has such faith in JDodge.

I'm not sure I really get your argument.

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag. And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him, and a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch). Now, it is still possible that he killed him with the gambit in mind, but it's unlikely.

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either. I know at least one of the roles I submitted could have caused it - granted, it's unlikely, but less so than Jdodge randomly killing Nocmen.

The thing is you COULD play WIFOM on whether JDodge would kill Nocmen as scum. The evidence to me points at him being scum, and who is to say that the rest of the mafia didn't all agree on killing Nocmen and JDodge just happened to be the one who was sent in with the kill?

That's not the point, though. Why would they do it? There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen, but as far as I can see, it takes a laboured interpretation to give the mafia a motive to kill him.

How much more explanation do you want?

[Shanba]

So, it's majority +1 is it? And mneme just posted a few posts up.

I'd guess it's majority. Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19). That means, if we don't have funky powers messing with the majority threshold directly (ew, why) that there are two extra votes in the game.

Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.

FOS: Shamba

As the man said, stop rolefishing. I do not want to know who controlls Belgarion at this time; at best he should drop breadcrumbs so he can pick them up when him or his alt die. The only reason, berift of suspicion, for him to reveal all is so your mafia buddies can have a better choice of targets.

(Your rhetoric is getting under my skin. I'll try to ignore it for now, but I may end up by getting really frustrated by the end of this post)

Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear I

do

suspect him: I am, you know, voting him. For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role. Fishing implies a subtle machination that, well, wasn't there. Thirdly, did you read my arguments why I want him to reveal? You can add to that that it will help get a meta read on him, and also give a fuller picture of his alignment. I don't like working with half the facts when it's very easy and not very costly to the town: sure, it will help narrow down power roles, but in this setup, pretty much everyone has a role anyway. Finally, read my wiki. As scum, I avoid scumtells like fishing like I avoid eating hamburgers that move.

Also, you're defending your buddy Jdodge too hard; as much as I like the idea of a two-fer, you're making it far too easy.

(grr...)

The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)

Death recruiter is certainly possible (in fact, the possiblity is the only reason a resurectionist isn't pretty much broken), but the indication is that Twomz's rez is due to the yellow shirt. That said, I expect Twomz to drop dead again tonight; unless he was resurected by the mafia, he's simply far too valuable (as a confirmed doc) not to kill, and it's unlikely that MoS put -too- many docs in the game.

Also, your argument for why the mafia wouldn't kill Nocmen is garbage. Both his believed role and the common wisdom re post restrictions would point to him having a useful, and probabily information-based, power. If anything, it requires chutzpah, without any evidence aside from a claim, suggest that dead protown + no other deaths + confirmation of killer of dead protown has ANYTHING other as a simplest explaination than "killer = mafia".

Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.

Your first point is rubbish. It starts with an assumption that prs = info roles. Honestly, I haven't seen many PRed players in non-pr games, but the one(s) I have seen have not been info roles. Maybe this was true a while back, but I certainly don't feel that is the current meta. Even on scumchat, I haven't seen it. I've seen that pr = power role, but that could be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.

Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game, and only just avoids a lynch. As scum,

there is no way I would kill that person.

Combine the WIFOM over why he's still alive with the fact that people thought he was scummy yesterday and you have yourself an easy mislynch. And even if that weren't the case, you might not target info roles for fear of doc protection etc. (Admittedly, the doc was dead at this point, but this is a hypothetical to demonstrate why your point is flawed.)

You're simply overlooking context. In a vacuum, your arguments would hold more weight. Look at them in context and it's different. If Jdodge is scum, he had been setting Nocmen up for a mislynch for a day and a half, and almost certainly would have had it yesterday if it hadn't suddenly become kingmaker. He then turns around and nightkills him? Such a move doesn't make any sense, and claims that Nocmen was likely an info role don't make it any more compelling to the scum when they're about to get a mislync on him anyway.

Alternatively, consider he's telling the truth. He's tunneled on Nocmen for what he believes are inconsistencies in his pr and then eventually when it looks like he's not going to get the lynch, he vigs him. This makes perfect sense as vig play.

I don't know what happened to the mafia kill last night, but there are many possibilities: mafia doing other things, mafia being blocked, mafia targetting an unkillable, hell, even mafia crosskilling. (actually, wait a sec.
CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly), so he presumably gets 3 votes tomorrow. I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!). so I'd count him as near confirmed if he can prove his claim. (that said, could be a kill-optional SK, or maybe mafia can't QFT, only town). Plus, of course, more multi-votes than we've seen claimed would balance this out to a degree.[/quote]
I agree with you on this point, however, I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.

[Shanba]

[quote="Vote count"]

Nocmen - (UltimaAvalon, KaleiÐoscøpe, Nightson, Oman, curiouskarmadog, Belgarion) [/quote]

I'll address the rest later, but srsly. That's pretty close to a majority, and there were very few people who were not

ok

with it.

[Shanba]

EBWOP - well, it's closer to a majority than any other player, by a very long way.

[Shanba]

Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19)

Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.

There are only 15 players on the living list. I was assuming you were the remaining player, and forgot about TSS. But that only gets us to 17; which still leaves us one vote short.

I think I said that earlier, too... lemme go check.

Regardless, I'm not sure this is important. Either it's a mod error, which the discussion we've had ought to highlight, or it's to do with a role, and any discussion of it is likely to out the role.

Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear I

do

suspect him: I am, you know, voting him.

Noticed. Find some buddies and you can argue your force with more, well force. Me, I'd rather leave the single player mason alone for the moment and give our (probably doomed) doctor a smaller choice of targets to defend. In general, masons shouldn't come out without a good argument; one player ain't it. Anyway, I suspect one can easily figure out who Belgarion is the alter of by looking at who started posting again near when he did.

I'm not putting much store in roles this game. My own role is nigh useless as town, despite my best efforts to gain info with it, but would be great as scum, especially my other ability (which I have no intention of ever using this game.) Even so, a two-role one-man team is not necessarily a town role, and I don't think masons is a fair description of it.

Also, your suggestion is just about the worst way of going about it - scum get enough info so that if he's not scum they can avoid killing him, but town don't know for sure so they can't make any connections or use any evidence they gather.

Sure, then I guess I'll have to rally support somehow, because I want him claimed and eventually dead. Unfortunately for now, that means watching and waiting, because nothing I have yet is going to get him lynched, but I'm pretty sure he's scum.

For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role.

You started with fishing. You then got more explicit.

Eh.

It was never intended to be underhand. I can see how you would interpret it that way.

The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)

Repeating a bad defense just looks more scummy, not more genuine.
[/quote]
That's ridiculous.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't? You asked me to repeat myself. So I did. Now repeating my defence is scummy. Your insinuation here is catch 22.

Edit - Urm, sorry, that wasn't you. That was TSS. I still think your argument is utterly ridiculous though. Repeating a defence makes it scummier? Bullshit.

Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.

That last bit is the usual case, yes. I don't have any info that makes me think it's untrue, do you?

well, the, uh, rest of the arguments I set forth in my post, for a start. Could you please try and keep each point I'm making together? It makes the argument smoother and less difficult to keep track of. Thanks.

Moreover, your argument relies on the assumption that the arguments of a very small number of very loud people against Nocmen were likely to be effective. Since it -was- a very small number of people, that seems disingenous.

It was a plurality, and, moreover, a loud one. No one else was close to accruing the amount of suspicion he was - people were pulling in disparate directions, but none of them were pulling together. The nature of mafia is that we wagon, and as such, pluralities very quickly become majorities if there are no competing wagons, either because of deadlines, because of players who live to join wagons, players who have that player as a compromise or even those who just don't see any real reason not to lynch him will join the wagon and push it to a lynch.

If you dispute that he was the player under the most pressure, who would you state was likely to have been the lynch today? Because I don't see any other reasonable candidate: Oman, maybe, but he was protected by his claim, me, perhaps, but the amount of people suspecting me isn't enough to build a wagon, Zoneace, maybe, but again, a smaller and less vocal group were after him than Nocmen.

be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.

Actually, looking at the roles chosen compared to submision claims, I'll challenge that last bit. There was a single mod who had full power over balance/role design. The fact that MoS farmed out a lot of the brainstorming to us doesn't change the fact that he clearly spent a lot of time and attention making sure the roles were reasonably balanced and playable once assigned.

Ok, fine. And the rest of the argument?

Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game

Please leave your straw man in Oz -- Nocmen wasn't even a little scummy; instead, there were a few specific scummy people who wanted to lynch him because he had a post restriction. They might have assumed they'd have better success on later days...but they might as easily have assumed that their ploy had failed and would fail.

See what I said before about vocal pluralities. If a politician only wins 30% of the vote, but none of his rivals win more than 10%, who's most likely to be elected?

I don't really understand JDodge's claimed day/night reversal. Does anyone? Does JDodge? Without knowing how it works, it's impossible to know how useful it is and whether it in itself is worthwhile beyond proving his role. Assuming everything is secret that usually is, it does what? Turn night-cops into day-cops, mafia into day-discussing scum with a daykill, etc; just reversing night and day timing? Beyond making it slightly more likely that cops will be able to talk even if kill-targetted (ie, they may be able to race with day-killing scum and win), I fail to see how this benefits the town significantly.

I kind of agree with you here. It doesn't give us a whole lot of benefit, but then, I can't see that it would hurt us substantially either, and, if it would and Jdodge is scum, why he wouldn't have done it already in secret. But that's kinda WIFOM...

If the scum missed their kill, I'd have expected to see a strong attack on at least one player who wasn't Jdodge. (OTOH, there's a lot of WIFOM there, so hey).

Huh? Why?

Also, I'm still curious re Sir Tornado.

I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.

Agreed. His role doesn't confirm alignment, but it is indicative, so it's very useful to confirm (or, you know, not).

Mhm. Tbh, I don't see a scum multivoter in game without some serious restrictions.

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag.

I disagree with this both in principle and in specific. In principle, a one-shot's reaction to the notion of using his kill on night 3, on anything less than confessed scum (and possibly not even that), should be, well, "OH, THE HORROR!" In specific, having tried and failed to get Nocmen killed for his post restriction, and with Nocmen an expected power role, I see no reason why scum should not find him an attractive target. To argue otherwise is to say that they should have tried to get him lynched again; but a vig should be no less confident in his persuasive powers than the same player as scum.

No...
if a 1-shot thinks he's found scum, why shouldn't he shoot him? The amount of time is meaningless, it's more the degree of certainty, and Jdodge's actions correspond to the degree of certainty I'd expect from a 1-shot vig before firing.

Secondly, the scum really hadn't had a chance to get him lynched yet. The momentum for the wagon built up on a day where it couldn't have any effect, due to it being kingmaker, so they never had the opportunity to try and fail for the wagon. I'm pretty certain they would have had their Nocmen lynch today if they'd tried.

Your final point is also flawed. As a vig, killinga scummy looking player, even if they're not scum means that you can use the days lynch to hunt for more scum. As scum, killing a lynchable power role does not mean that you can use the day to lynch another lynchable power role, as there may not be one there to lynch. Scum rely much more on opportunities than trying to create lynches, which is the most dangerous part of the game for scum, whereas vig doesn't need to worry about that. As such, whether or not the vig believes in his persuasive powers, he should kill scummy players to limit the amount of mislynches the town makes (a mislynch is more costly than a misvig, as a mislynch entails an extra nightkill), and to get the information on the table quicker. For scum, the opposite is true.

And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him,

I said nothing about playing WIFOM to claim one-shot; I have no doubt that JDodge had no intention of claiming when he sent in his kill. The thing is, WIFOM is irrelevant ot an ad hoc claim (true or not). A vig would expect not to be implicated in the kill just as much as scum, and therefore they would expect not to have to claim the next morning for exactly the same reasons as he. You are assuming that the action leads willy-nilly to the revelation, and it does nothing of the sort.

I was eliminating the possibilities that made him scum. That was one. In that post, I did not state the logic behind it, as it was a declaration of opinion. Please see my later posts for

why

I believe that.

a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch)

Any

kill deprives the scum of a possible mislynch. By this argument the scum should never kill. Which is fine by me.

In theory, yes, in practice, no. Players who look pro-town are much harder to lynch than players who look scummy, players who are good at arguing are harder to lynch than those who are best known for the copious amounts of craplogic they produce, and confirmed masons are harder to lynch than millers with a guilty on them.

Not every player is a possible mislynch, and it's when the scum run out of easy mislynches that they start getting into real difficulties.

There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen,

And that would be...?

If Jdodge is town, he clearly believed that Nocmen was scum. As such, it makes sense for him to have vigged him. Um. That's pretty obvious, really.

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either.

We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?

The missing kill I am referring to is the one that should be there if Jdodge was town - explaining it is not difficult, hence it is devalued as a reason to suspect jdodge.

Could more people weigh in on the argument, please? Walls of text leave people uninvolved, and I'd rather others began to discuss too rather than the thread being dominated by my arguments with tss and mneme.

[Shanba]

Oh, I need to correct an earlier post.

...
I don't know what happened to the mafia kill last night, but there are many possibilities: mafia doing other things, mafia being blocked, mafia targetting an unkillable, hell, even mafia crosskilling. (actually, wait a sec.

All of Sir Tornado's posts today have also contained the words. Sir T, I would like to see you post without saying the "OH THE HORROR".)

CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly)...

Underlined bit was missing, and important.

[Shanba]

If Jdodge is town, he clearly believed that Nocmen was scum. As such, it makes sense for him to have vigged him. Um. That's pretty obvious, really.

And if Jdodge is scum, he clearly believed that Nocmen was town. As such, it makes sense for him to have nuked him. You can't assume your conclusion and then give that as the rationale for making the assumption.

Um.

Jdodge as scum would assume that anyone was scum. What's more interesting is whether he thought Nocmen was a power role, but even then, there are other reasons which I have already stated why he wouldn't want to kill him.

Nocmen had promised the use of powers at night. Why

shouldn't

a (scum) JDodge who had no reason to believe he would be tied to the kill try to shoot him?

Because (a) he could very likely get him lynched the next day and (b) there are, presumably, other power roles he could have been shooting for anyway.

Yeesh, we're going in circles. I'm going to restate my argument in full, because I feel this has devolved to going in circles and nitpicking.

Either Jdodge is town or he is not. Someone's alignment is a yes/no thing, so this is indisputable. Jdodge, as town, had been clearly suspicious of Nocmen for the preceding two days. It makes sense that a vig kills someone he has been suspicious of.

Jdodge as scum, however, has little to no motive to kill. Nocmen was very likely the next lynch: killing him means that someone else will be lynched, and that person could very well be scum. Even if it doesn't lead directly to a scumlynch today, it may do later down the line: a different scummy townie gets lynched today who would have been lynched tomorrow and the scum who was third in line to being lynched is now second in line, instead. Such things can be the difference between victory and defeat. It's not worth killing a possible power role over that,

as that power role could well have been lynched today anyway.

Lynching him simply because we know he killed someone is sloppy and lazy play, especially as the indicators that show he killed someone also show up in another players posts (Sir Tornado)

[Shanba]

OH THE HORROR

I caused Nocmen's fake kill.

Oh.

Right then. That makes sense.

[Shanba]

not about that. Jdodge has already said he vigged Noc, which confirms kscopes post.

but I guess you are right, it explains what you are doing...which I wasnt sure about, but it doesnt give us any new information as a collective.

What are you confused about?

[Shanba]

how was it copied again (sorry for being daft).

also, shanba is your role like a jailkeeper, meaning if you would have targetted Twomz that night, could you have protected him for a mafia kill?

No. It simply is a fake kill.

still here, not much to say at this point, I would like to see Jdodge's other action, in action, so he will probably not get my vote today. Also did Oman or Shanba ever comment on my role claim?

Yeah, I did.

Actually,

Unvote Vote: ZONEACE

[Shanba]

Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!

[Shanba]

smart or informed?

He said townies. Informed townies being, I suppose, cops/masons etc?

[Shanba]

I still think you were fairly lucky with that lynch.

Go count the ticket buys. You should be able to see whether that fits his criteria or not.

[Shanba]

ummm, is anyone concerned about the dead that has risen?

It's interesting, sure. But uh... I'm not sure how much speculation is helpful on this point. We're not going to learn anything from speculation unless someone has something they want to reveal about it anyway, and in that case either they're town and will make their own decision about whether to reveal or not. If they're scum, they aren't going to reveal anyway. Or they might as a fakeclaim, I guess.

[Shanba]

I find it quite funny that twice dead Nocmen is sitting here speaking to us.

Nocmen/Twomz - did you keep your powers after resurrection? My guess is a zombie cult would strip you of your powers. I'd like to remind Nocmen to answer this truthfully, as I could quite easily test this tonight with a fake kill.

Heya Oman - aren't you supposed to have a double vote? I avoided executing you for that reason. It's now two days later - I'd really like a demonstration.

[Shanba]

Also, (and this could be tied into the Thyro discussion)..Shanba, why didnt you fake any deaths last night?

Sorry, missed this before. Frankly, there didn't seem to be any point. I used it the last two nights to try and gain information - firstly, I wanted post-tss death reactions from players to see how people would react to seeing him dead. I chose tss because I was suspicious of him at the time. TBH, I never really got the reactions I wanted. Thee next night I knew my ability would be harder to use to gain information because people knew I had the ability, thus would not immediately assume any dead player was actually dead. So I killed myself, so as to try to make it less obvious. my ability being copied kinda blew that out of the water, though, and also I kinda forgot I was planning to play dead and posted anyway.

Last night, however, I decided it wasn't worth it - all it was doing was letting Zoneace etc. spam up the thread saying they were confused, and besides, I had run out of ideas to make the deaths look natural.

Now, as for Oman - this is a designer game. Did anyone submit a role that silences? (ftr, I am aware that any responses, positive or negative, are dubious, but it's still useful information.) I think he's scum, frankly. I think he's busted and dare not post. However, I am slightly disturbed that jdodge has disappeared off the agenda because of Oman - I suspect if Oman is town then scum are using this as cover for partners defending jdodge. Yes, I'm fully aware of the fact that I was defending jdodge, smartass. For the record, I hate stark's role on the jdodge wagon.

[Shanba]

Alright. I'm willing to believe Fonz is town for now.

Vote: stark

[Shanba]

That's a crappy restriction :( makes it much harder to hide the base player. Oh well, since you're outted it doesn't matter anymore. And as I've said, I have seen the role as a SK before, no reason it can't be implemented as a nonSK role, especially in a designer game.

Plus we have a dead SK already.

[Shanba]

What does that have to do with me?

[Shanba]

Hey TSS - have you seen anything that could be construed as independent thought from stark? Also, could you look at stark's play yesterday on the Jdodge wagon?

[Shanba]

I noted without great approval how he was all against lynching JDodge until it came time to cast the hammering votes, which struck me as possible distancing; however, I don't have a strong read on stark.

Do you not find this at all interesting? He was against lynching a scumbag until the hammer, at which point he asks permission from the town to hammer. He combines concern with his own image with a completely passive role on the Jdodge wagon and a late attempt at bussing. Besides which, his play has hardly been stellar all game - his role on the early thyroid wagon is just about the only time he sinks his teeth into doing any thinking for himself. He follows me on to Oman after one PBPA, he follows the crowd on the Nocmen wagon, the only wagon he doesn't really follow the crowd on is the Jdodge one, on which he restricts himself to making passing comments and casual defences of Jdodge before suddenly jumping on and hammering.

[Shanba]

Do you accept?

Rearrange the following to form a well known phrase or saying:

out, ass, it, Blow, your.

QFT

[Shanba]

I forget why we stopped wagoning foolinc again.

[Shanba]

Hm

I could see a tss wagon too.

[Shanba]

OTOH, TSS's "don't lynch these" was a quite good summation of who's anti-linked to our scumgroup in one fashion or another, aside from his inclusion of himself onto it.

Yeah, but it's also somewhat common sense. Are you saying he's a bad lynch because of only one post?

Um, he is about fourth or fifth out of eighteen on my ranking, and first or second of the six not on The List of obvtown or obvscum. I repeat: I'm not that interested in going after him yet, because I have juicier targets in my sights, but I wouldn't say I find him uninteresting.

Why are they juicier? What have they done that's scummier than what stark has done?

[Shanba]

actually, no. Foolinc was replaced by tss, so I suggested two wagons. And yes, I'd be happy with either

[Shanba]

Unvote vote: TSS

I should have executed you when I had the chance. Stark can wait till tomorrow.

Tss, what's .95^8?

[Shanba]

Shanba, I get about 66%. Why do you ask?

Because 66% is substantially smaller than 95%.

Even if we trust that each of the players on your list are 95% likely to be town, we run into the issue that the more players we trust the greater the risk we run. If you trust Fonz even slightly more than that, there's no reason to restrict his votes. I don't honestly see how you could, say, trust ckd but not Fonz.

[Shanba]

Actually, Tss, please just list all limitations on your role.

Unvote

Whether or not I revote is entirely dependent on your answer.

[Shanba]

Why would faking someone's death make them become a miller? Nothing in my role PM says that happens. I wiill fake kscopes death tonight if you wish, though I'm not entirely sure I see the point? Can you resurrect those I fake killed?

[Shanba]

Well, my theory is that you are a

scum

millerizer, Shanba. Yes, fakedeath Scope. The first night after his fakedeath, I would like a cop to investigate Scope. If Scope turns up town, which we pretty much already know he is, my theory is wrong. If Scope investigates as scum, Shanba is exposed as a liar and Armlx is tarred badly by association too.

Can I just state that's a really, really, weird theory, but I will fakekill scope tonight in order to disprove it.

What do you want me to state his role and alignment as?

[Shanba]

The big problem I have with tss is the fact that his role is absolutely 100% broken. A limited resurrector I could understand - perhaps if you could only resurrect a limited number of times, or only players who died in a certain way. But an unlimited resurrector makes 0 sense - what's to stop you resurrecting any town role that dies?

Bleh.

Vote: Nocmen

. If your role is true, better to test it on someone with a less powerful role.

[Shanba]

Why would I fake a death? Given I was doing to garner information from reactions, what reactions do you think I could have gotten? All I had received the previous two days had been white noise.

[Shanba]

shanba, it would demostrate that you did something other make a kill last night...also, again, you faked kills the first two nights, I find it odd that you didnt fake one last night about the same time that all mafia actions were supposedly blocked.

All it would do is generate confusion and clutter up the player list. I had planned not to use it any more, since there was no more information I thought I could dredge up from it.

Kscope - Are you expecting my fake kill to actually kill you?

On a side note, "I find it funny" and "I find it odd" are two of the most threatening things to hear in a mafia game.

[Shanba]

My point is that you finding it "odd" is ridiculous, when there was no reason I would use it as town at any rate.

I didn't state it, but frankly it's common sense.

[Shanba]

I saw this coming. Sweet heaven.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, starkscum, but we're not lynching me. Or if we are, it's OK, because we'll lynch you next. You or your scumbuddy, tss.

armlx: please state your play analysis so we may scrutinise it.

CKD: Calm down. I dispute your claim that it's suspicious for 1 reason - there was 0 reason for me to target anyone as town last night. Consider the reason I had used it before - in order to gain information. What information was I going to gain from the third time successively, when it was already known that my ability was to frame people?

[Shanba]

Faking deaths doesn't actually kill the player; see, e.g. me. But I have been trying to think what use Shanba's role is. It is not a useful intel-gathering role because he writes the roles himself. But if declaring another player scum or town does something else -- like making that player appear as scum or town appropriately to cops -- suddenly it is a role with a function. That function, though, would have to be anti-town, because it makes town roles not work and places town players under false suspicion.

That's exactly what I thought when I got the role: how on earth is this useful to me, as town? It hit me, though, that I might be able to use it catch scum, or, at least, to get some interesting info. If I faked a player's death and called him scum, the real scum's reaction might be telling. For example, I considered that if I hit a townie, the real scum might start speculating about 2 scum groups. It didn't work out how I'd hoped, because talking about nightkills has become almost taboo, and I had to push far too hard in order to get any sort of reaction, thus defusing the trap.

Night 2, I knew that my first night's strategy wouldn't work. So I needed a new plan: I decided to fake my own death. I didn't think it would be

as

useful, nowhere near, in fact, but still, comments like "I don't understand why Shanba was killed last night" could be telling, or at least interesting. Furthermore,0 it also allowed me to claim my rolename in order to communicate to anyone who had made my role that that was indeed the role I had. I was planning to sit back and watch for the first part of the day then announce that, actually, I wasn't dead after all. Unfortunately, sir t kinda defused that one, and also I simply forgot about it.

If anyone designed either jediknight's or TSS' role, please come forwards. You needn't say what exactly they do, but if you know that Jediknight has nothing to do with the resurrections then that's evidence strongly in favour that tss is telling the truth. If, on the other hand, you know that it is jedi reviving them, that condemns tss.
Night 3 I couldn't see any way to milk any more info from my role.

[Shanba]

... I am not altogether surprised that PBuG does not like the Shanba wagon, as PBuG is the former Flameaxe.

Shanba, why on earth would anyone say "I don't know why Shanba was killed" when (a) you were still posting, (2) you had already claimed fakedeathizer, and (iii) it would be pretty universally regarded as a ludicrously scummy thing to say unless the person could come up with a good reason why it specifically had to be said?

Incidentally, let the record show the following, which is consistent with someone who knows what The List will do to him and his if allowed, and desperately needs to attack it:You're not even

reading

my posts now...

Unfortunately, sir t kinda defused that one, and also I simply forgot about it.

The fact that everyone knew I was could fake deaths was precisely the reason I chose to fake my own: not all roles can self target, and, if I simply stopped talking for a reasonable period of time, say, 3 weeks or so, then it might not have been so obvious. I agree with point (iii), though, and that's why I qualified it as not as useful as the first attempt.

Incidentally, let the record show the following, which is consistent with someone who knows what The List will do to him and his if allowed, and desperately needs to attack it:

I don't honestly see how you could, say, trust ckd but not Fonz.

The town in general, and Nocmen and Belgarion in specific, are invited to contemplate the implications of this.

Your list is stupid and flawed and yes I

will

attack the list. I don't need you telling me who to find pro-town - I'm perfectly capable of that myself, thankyou very much.

Nocmen/Belgarion - do you agree with tss' list?

Tss: if you get me lynched today, when i turn up pro-town, will you rez me and help me lynch stark tomorrow?

[Shanba]

Wow, everyone targeted me night 4. Everyone not targeting Nocmen, that is. Even some who were...