The Hobbit Mafia - GAME OVER

[Yaw]

Good morning! (Hey, a SK and a maf down is one

good

morning.)

Random

Vote: Shivan_Dragon

because we've already seen one evil dragon...

[Yaw]

Well, four killing groups at any rate. The thing is that the trolls didn't go about snapping necks -- their killing methods all had something to do with cooking and eating. On the other hand, Gollum's more a neck-snapper. But we know there are trolls out there, and the scimitars do seem more like goblin kills.

Lightning doesn't seem to fit with anyone other than Gandalf, who is well-known for pyrotechnics. But Gandalf evil? Killing jeep night one is

not

something I'd expect a vig to do -- even in a game like this with an expectation of multiple killing groups, were he scum, we'd want him alive to track down the scum groups he isn't in. Whoever killed jeep was scum, from the circumstances.

[Yaw]

You're right, a combined cop/vig would be another possibility for Gandalf. That one should become clear as the game proceeds. If on future nights we end up with some zapped dwarves, we'll know it's a SK. On the other hand, if the lightning kills disappear, it would make the combo role more likely. (Although even here, we'd have to account for possible doc protection or another roleblocker.)

[Yaw]

Ooo...good article. Thanks Tigris, I hadn't seen that before.

I do think Antrax went a bit farther than just a cop/vig in his "don'ts", though -- he had a combo character that couldn't be lynched or killed. I'll agree that a cop/vig combo is likely too overpowering in this game, as with (if that were true) three scum groups out there that role is bound to hit somthing at a pretty high rate. I don't think Murk's suggestion is possible, as it isn't a good idea to complicate matters more than necessary.

One-shot SK would be silly as a role. If Gollum were an anti-town role that had to find Bilbo, as Argoti suggested, that would be more likely. At any rate, there's only so far this kind of speculation is likely to get us.

IS, I thought you were volunteering for a bandwagon back there. I'd be happy to comply with that request...

[Yaw]

Interesting idea. Can we at least get a notice in-thread whenever the vote count is updated, mod?

[Yaw]

Ok...can we have a "time of last vote count update" tag on the front page, then? I'm thinking of people in other time zones here, when you might be sleeping...

[Yaw]

I just got a better idea, let's hunt scum!

Unvote: Shivan_Dragon

,

Vote: jediknight

for Gollum apologetics.

Let's start with the voting and bandwagoning.

[Yaw]

Agreed. Now, I did start the jediknight-wagon, and unlike what IS claimed, it was

not

clutching at straws. We need a wagon of some sort to start this day going, and I'll take any semi-reasonable excuse I can find to start the first one off. Now we can start to actually analyze voting patterns.

Check out IS's last two posts, though.

Your evil people are either Coolbot or Korais.

I didnt realize Korais already had votes on him. I will go with Coolbot instead.

So, you're sure enough Korais is scum that you put it in such blatant terms, yet you have a problem with being the third vote on him of 13 to lynch?! Looks to me like you're not particularly eager to actually lynch scum here, IS.

FOS: Internet Stranger

[Yaw]

Far more likely that our mod used the book itself.

In addition, we already know from the deaths last night that Elrond was a

roleblocker

(I'm assuming people arrived in Rivendell for the night and didn't want to leave) and Nori was a

townie

. At the very least those who are spouting off wild theories about rhyming masons could make them correspond with the few facts we have.

Also, there we have the Gollum thing again. If Gollum is in this game, the mod admittedly could have used him in a number of ways. His nature suggests a serial killer to me -- in "The Hobbit", Gollum ate anything that came down to his lake, and the only thing that saved Bilbo from being eaten right off the bat was the fact that Bilbo was carrying a sword. Gollum didn't have much information about anything until he came out from the mountains, which happened post-Hobbit.

[Yaw]

Apparently mikehart knows Kommandant personally. Although a mod prod might be in order...

[Yaw]

Actually, TSS, I suggested Gollum as a neck-snapper before Korais did. Also, Korais has only had one post since the game started, and that was random voting. There certainly isn't even close to enough there to state unequivocably (as IS did) that Korais is scum.

Now Korais may very well be scum. But either way IS is full of crap.

[Yaw]

Oh, I agree completely about IS's playing style. That's why I'm not voting for him at the moment -- what's scummy for every other person in the world is normal for IS. But that doesn't preclude him from being full of crap, and I have no problems with pointing that out when he is.

[Yaw]

This is becoming quite ridiculous. The way these large games get started is to find some half-baked excuse, and bandwagon. Most of the time, it's a bandwagon to a claim. That's the way this works. Then we can sit back and analyze who bandwagoned, who didn't, how the bandwagon's target reacted, and why. All of that is relevant information that can catch us scum. What we have now is a conversation starter, it is not necessarily a lynch-wagon.

Jediknight, could you give us some explanation for the "pro-town by accident" comment? If you can do it without claiming, that would be better.

IS's definition of nobility comes from the same source as Mao Tse-Tung's definition of freedom.

I'm willing to listen to anyone who claims to have found scum, but they have to at least give some reasoning for it. You got any to back up your claims on Korais and Coolbot, IS?

[Yaw]

Since a good portion of the group seems to be hiding...and Yaw seems to be backpedaling saying this isn't a bandwagon... it's a "conversation starter"...like h-e double hockey sticks (LL for the undeducated!) That makes you more scummy to me. And Yaw also seems to be the one that has the most issues with my continued discussion of Gollum.

No, what I said is that it was a conversation-starting-wagon, rather than a lynch-wagon. I never denied it was a bandwagon.

Didn't Galion push

all

the dwarves into the river? Also, he had nothing to do with the keys to the dungeon. Plus "never to be targetted again" is a rather disturbing turn of phrase.

Although I'll admit Galion does fit the "not really considered good" criteria...

[Yaw]

It is a weak claim...

We're at 10 votes with 13 to lynch. I would much prefer if we don't end this day before everyone has the chance to comment. I didn't expect this bandwagon to be so fast or decisive. Ideally, by the time we go into night, every role should have at least one post. Otherwise, we're just going to run into problems in coming days.

[Yaw]

Looks like people are just a little too eager to finish this off.

Unvote: Jediknight

I don't believe him, but we shouldn't go to night without hearing from everyone, and this takes off a bit of the pressure. Chaotic_diablo, Ibanez, indentureddjinn, Kommandant, NanookTheWolf, Shivan_Dragon, and Uraj need to get their asses in here. (Although it should be noted that Shivan_Dragon is on vacation at the moment until early next week.)

[Yaw]

Oops. Was wondering if I forgot someone that way. This is what happens when I don't double-check my count against the front post.

The other six are still valid lurkers, though.

[Yaw]

Actually, those I identified haven't said anything since day broke. They don't need pressure. They need a mod prod or replacement.

[Yaw]

Still waiting. I missed dragonmaster on my original list -- he hasn't posted yet either.

I still don't see why IS gets a pass. Granted, I've never played with him before, but he's essentially fingered 3 different people (dragonmaker, coolbot, and korais) for no visible reasons, votes for jediknight "just to end the day" when we haven't even heard from everyone, and seems to have some sort of feud with Yaw. He's even got people asking him who they should vote for, but not why (except Yaw). I'd vote for him, but he's bulletproof today, and then there's this...

It's IS. There's really no other explanation. He

always

acts this way, no matter what role he's in. This means we need to look for more subtle stuff if we want to figure out if he's scum. My personal plan is to ignore him for the most part, point out where he's wrong, and wait for a cop to figure out if he's scum or not. I figure somebody's got to investigate him sooner or later, and even Jeep admits that when he's a cop he'll waste an investigation on IS. The guy's just that good at disguising his role.

On the other hand, if he's not scum, he is worth listening to. He has rather innovative ways of catching scum, and is one of the better players at it. He's also great at poisoning the well when catching scum, as you can imagine -- he'll point out someone as scum correctly, without giving any reason to believe him.

Thus is the saga of IS.

[Yaw]

Alright, I'll compromise to avoid this dragging out. My vote will go back on when both Uraj and indentureddjinn have posted actual content, or 24 hours after this post. I don't expect to hear from the other people on my list, and expect most of them will be replaced shortly.

[Yaw]

Well, 24 hours is up and I'm a man of my word.

Vote: jediknight

SATH: indentureddjinn

for non-participation. We can determine if that's scummy rather than annoying tomorrow.

[Yaw]

Well, I confirmed by PM too, but that's personal choice.

SATH = Smack Across The Head. I needed something while in Paced Mafia (now finished) to indicate that I was annoyed with someone who at the time was pretty much a confirmed townie, so I invented that. It doesn't indicate scumminess, it indicates that the recipient of the smack should get their head out of their ass.

Note that I don't mean to imply here that indentureddjinn is a confirmed anything. I'm merely saying that he has to participate more and stop procrastinating, because the lurking is annoying. He may have legitimate reasons for it, I don't know. Just expressing my displeasure.

Feel free to use and proliferate SATHs.

[Yaw]

Oh. I was about to ask. Now I realize IS is still on yesterday.

Reread coming up. With a dead goblin and dead troll tonight, we should be able to figure out who the other members of those groups are...if they're here. Any news on the lurkers, mod?

And now we have spiders. There are a

lot

of scum in this game...

[Yaw]

I'm willing to join this after a re-read. It's not because of Korais not voting for jediknight, though. The interaction between Korais and Mr. Flay strikes me as odd, so with Mr. Flay being a troll, that's my logic.

Vote: korais666

I will also note that I wasn't finding as much as I expected in the reread. I strongly suspect some of our lurkers are scum, and will be looking there next.

On thinking about it, "dead without marks" is probably the troll kill. Sitting on someone stuffed in a sack would do that.

[Yaw]

Yaw, what do you mean with "the interaction between Korais and Mr. Flay"??
There were 13 people voting for jediknight yesterday, 11 were not. Why is Korais more suspicious then any of those 11 players?

To be honest, I generally don't look much for who votes for who. (Well, I do, but it's not that high on my list of things to look for.) I look for how people interact with one another, especially how people interact with known scum while they're alive. There's some fishy interaction between Korais and Mr. Flay away from the main focus of the day that leads to to believe they might be working together. Looked like a fake argument designed to separate them from one another. At least it's enough for me to want to check it out. (Here's where I differ from IS -- I think Korais is a troll if scum, IS thinks he's a goblin.)

I'm wondering about Yaw. Jedi attacked him late, after it was pretty apparant Jedi was going to be lynched. At the about the same time, Yaw jumped off the wagon, and after that was pretty reluctant about casting the lynching vote.

Jediknight attacked a number of people yesterday, though. Even so, I don't think your logic holds up well -- I was the first on the jediknight-wagon, insisted on it being a good bandwagon, and carried it through. Were I his partner, I would not be shining a big lynching spotlight on jediknight like that. You're also really misinterpreting my actions, CoolBot. I tried to slow the lynch down to allow people to say something before the day ended. I never tried to

stop

the lynch from occurring, and was quite sure that lynching jediknight was the right thing to do day 1.

Which reminds me, mod, what is going on with dragonmaster and Kommandant? Are they in this game, or are they getting replaced?

[Yaw]

Actually, it's more the other way around -- Mr. Flay creating deliberate distance between himself and Korais. But since you wanted examples...

And then there's this from Korais666:

you have to figure that when ANYONE says somebody is "evil" day 1, they usually mean "evilmaybenotreallysurejustguessing"

*bzzzt* Sorry, did you forget completely about cops? We've already had a Night 1, there could be somebody out there (several somebodies, maybe) with what they believe to be

prima facie

evidence of someone's guilt. Paranoid/insane cops, maybe, but strong in their convictions.

Since Jediknight is leaving for a week, the merciful thing to do would be to run the bandwagon out and kill him now. His partial role-claim really stinks; a one-shot doc, only if he targets the right player? Only likely if every person gets an ability, and we already saw that Nori got 'townie'...

Howecver I don't want to push it over the edge until lurkers like Uraj45 and indentureddjinn have a chance to 'say' something. My vote for Korias666 is confirmed.

Let's go through this. First of all, Korais actually

is

correct in his assessment quoted here. With the way IS was going on day 1, if he were a cop he'd be going on two investigations to be that sure, which is impossible. Why argue with Korais, then? Worse, you can see from the context here that this post came after Jediknight claimed, at which point it should have been pretty clear that the given roleclaim stunk. Yet, Mr. Flay simply acknowledges this is the case, advocates something pretty close to lynching for the sake of lynching, and then

confirms his vote on Korais

. Why on earth would he do that? Certainly there's nothing in what Mr. Flay has said to justify that kind of step, especially since he's already acknowledged that Jediknight's claim stinks. This entire thing looks quite forced. With the bandwagon going pretty hard in Jediknight's direction, the only reason I can think of for this is to work in a plausible "we're not working together" defense for later.

Look through Mr. Flay's posts for yourself. He harps on Korais far too much when Korais was under little actual pressure. I think this indicates something scummy going on between the two of them.

[Yaw]

Is there a reason you think Korais is a goblin specifically, IS? Just curious, since it's at odds with my thoughts.

[Yaw]

Has The_Kommandant posted in this game? At all? I can't find him on the Display Posts From feature. Mikehart, please replace him.

Mike's already doing so -- check the Queue. I think the second replacement is for dragonmaster (who hasn't posted either in this game), but I'm not as sure about that one.

[Yaw]

And

I'd

like to hear more from the people who have yet to post today, of which there are far too many. (Fortunately, there are now replacements for Kommandant and dragonmaster, at least in theory, so that little problem should be resolved shortly.)

The real problem is that the legitimate reason for the bandwagon on Korais is based on what Mr. Flay did in referring to him yesterday, rather than anything Korais himself did. It's rather difficult to defend against something you didn't do. Nevertheless, there's enough evidence there to point at Korais being scum, and his willingness to lynch jediknight isn't even remotely a part of it.

[Yaw]

Welcome, PeaceBringer!

What do you mean by a vote proxy?

Otherwise, just look back through the game and the past few pages in depth. This day's only been going for about 2 pages or so. The rest is summarized on the front page. Of course, if you want to trawl day 1 for evidence, you'll have to read.

Kommandant has posted nothing this entire game, by the way, so you won't have to worry about what your predecessor did.

[Yaw]

No, no active proxies. There are some roles that may be able to vote twice or "buy" another player's vote that have been used in games on this site, but those kinds of actions would be specified in the role itself.

Also, you need to actually bold the voting part to have your vote count, not just the name. So it's

Vote: So-and-So

and

Unvote: So-and-So

. If you just bold the name, the mod might not pick up which you're doing.

(Note, this in no way is intended to change my vote for Korais.

Vote: korais666

, in case my examples had unintended voting consequences.)

[Yaw]

Haven't seen anything from Murk today either, and I think Gaspode's still on vacation. If any of them show up on AIM, I'll prod. We just call them lurkers, by the way.

In general 4 reasons for a kill by a bad guy. Get rid of a dangerous player, hunting for cop, person had right suspects, or to throw suspiscion on the players suspects.

Or because they can. Experienced scum tend to kill randomly, or as close as possible. It means they're harder to track down by people looking for reasons behind night kills. Incidentally, that's why I almost never use night kills as scum "tells". At any rate, Rick

is

a good player.

Also, IS

always

posts like this. No matter what the role, he's always the scummiest-looking person around. It's his playing style, and he makes it work for him. (I think I have a good clue as to why.) As others have mentioned, nobody's quite sure how to tell when he's scum, and he's a good enough mafia hunter when town that it isn't worth lynching him as an object lesson (not that any such lesson would take). Best bet is to let him be, ride his scum-hunting prowess as far as we can (even if he is scum, he'll be trying to take out the scum groups he isn't a part of), and have a cop check him out. If there's an experienced cop in this game, I expect that's already been done, and if there's an inexperienced cop in this game, I except that will be done tonight at the latest.

I agree it's getting close to claiming time for Korais. If the claim is inadequate, I'd prefer to see our second replacement show up, at least, before we lynch.

[Yaw]

if this was LOR would think A gollum tie to spider-- but since hobbit not sure why we are getting spider type kill- I would say we cannot rule out a tie to gollum with spider-- just based on LOR--

There was a large battle with giant spiders in Mirkwood in "The Hobbit". Spiders set upon the dwarves in the night, webbed them all up, but Bilbo woke up before the spiders had finished cocooning him. Putting on the ring, he was able to fight off the spiders and rescue the dwarves. So yes, there is sufficient backing for a group of spiders in this game, and that group would have no connection to Gollum whatsoever.

[Yaw]

FOS = Finger Of Suspicion.

And I'll add one of my own.

FOS: meaning of life 42

. Start adding sensible content.

[Yaw]

Oh, you're equal to everyone else in this game, alright. If anyone else had entered as a replacement and started out by posting Jeff Foxworthy instead of actual content, they'd be bandwagoned too. Newbieism has nothing to do with it.

[Yaw]

Oh, this is ridiculous. I never said anything about liking or not liking Jeff Foxworthy. I stated quite clearly that Jeff Foxworthy

does not belong in this game

. It's page 12 and day 2. This is

way

too late to be throwing around random votes.

Now, read over the thread and start posting

content

.

There's no reason for the mod to do anything. If the replacement wants to commit suicide, that's his prerogative.

[Yaw]

I guess we're just waiting for enough people to figure out this game's going on so we can get the lynch. Can we have a vote count in the meantime?

If what Korais is saying is correct, even though we eliminated a scum group, it doesn't do us too much good. At least this means that the neck-snapper from day 1

is

Gollum, since no troll is claiming it.

Can we have a vote count?

[Yaw]

I guess we're just waiting for enough people to figure out this game's going on so we can get the lynch. Can we have a vote count in the meantime?

If what Korais is saying is correct, even though we eliminated a scum group, it doesn't do us too much good. At least this means that the neck-snapper from day 1

is

Gollum, since no troll is claiming it.

Can we have a vote count?

[Yaw]

I count 11 now. That should be the lynch.

[Yaw]

Well, remember how I said yesterday that I thought the other goblins were lurkers because I couldn't see connections to jediknight? Time to test that theory.

Vote: IndenturedDjinn

Time for the lurker wagons.

[Yaw]

PeaceBringer, part of the rationale here is to force prods and replacements. Although, I had thought the same thing as Yggdrasil too. In addition to the fact that I hadn't been able to tie people together with Jediknight as goblins, it's probable that at least one group missed a kill because of inactivity, rather than doc protection or role-blocking. So there is enough evidence that some of our lurkers are scum, and this is a good strategy to get a full complement of people here as well. Even if we need to get a replacement, we won't be lynching without claims.

[Yaw]

IN fact it is more probable a GG role player would be a non submitter. Unless a SK role the BGs usually have an opportunity to have someone around to submit.

Except that about half the game is inactive. Look at how long it took us to lynch Korais, despite the fact that he claimed scum, and was the last remaining member of a scum group, and so had no partners left. I'd say probability's pretty even right now.

[Yaw]

If they're scum, no.

Seriously, though, this is in part an attempt to get everyone back into this game. There is sufficient reason to believe we have scum among the inactives, so that's worth probing. We're definitely not going to lynch anyone who isn't here.

Also, normally I'd actually count for a lurker list, but I don't have time today and it wouldn't really help much (replacements and vacations provide enough mitigating circumstances that the list won't be truly objective). Jaylen's been here, but not a frequent posted. I'd tend to add Yggdrasil to that list, then note that he, along with Gaspode and Shivan_Dragon, have been on vacation at some point during this game. (I think Uraj and Djinn have been too, but Djinn's been gone since getting back and never did get around to actually participating despite a promise to contribute, which is why my vote's there.)

[Yaw]

What the? No, we

need

the pressure still. That will help us get a replacement if the lurkers aren't around. The fact that we aren't going to

finish

a lynch without response doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the pressure of a bandwagon to get a response.

[Yaw]

Hey! It was

my

troll catch!

[Yaw]

Dude. Here's some Official J.R.R. Tolkein pipeweed. Have some and take it down a notch.

I'm not thrilled with the two replacements either in terms of scumminess, but I'd rather go after the lurkers on my previous logic and wait to see if either of them makes a mistake.

Feeding the masses scum doesnt make them any smarter.

Very true. Which is why

I

, at least, try to explain why I think people are scum when I feed them to the masses.

[Yaw]

That isn't down enough notches.

Masses. Of people. Just feeding them scum and saying, "Vote for him," doesn't help them figure out how to pick out scum. Which was my point -- I explain why I think people are scum, both because I don't expect people to take my analyses on faith, and because it might help people become better scum hunters.

And why wouldn't you feed scum to the masses? If you've caught one, it's pretty much what you're supposed to do.

[Yaw]

Day only dawned Friday night. Weekends are generally slower. Give it at least a weekday before complaining.

[Yaw]

I don't understand this, CoolBot. If there's a good chance some of the lurkers are scum, then how would going after lurkers be at the expense of finding scum? It seems like a contradiction to me.

[Yaw]

Yes, scum is a catch-all for "evil people". Lurker is a pretty common internet term for someone who watches a message board, but doesn't post. We might modify that here to "doesn't post often", but the principle remains.

[Yaw]

Middle Earth.

[Yaw]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Those not posting since day 3 dawned:
Corsato
drummer97531
Gaspode
indentureddjinn
Lord Gurgi
Murk
Narninian
Shivan_Dragon
Uraj45

Those not posting since day 2 dawned:
Gaspode
indentureddjinn
Murk
Uraj45

Those with excuses (posted here or V/LA thread):
Lord Gurgi in Ireland until August 24
Narninian on road trip for a week until August 19 (apx)
Corsato has access possibly limited until Sunday
Uraj45 away until August 16/17
Gaspode on vacation until August 14/15(?)

[Yaw]

hehe. Since that was your first post since day started, I'm pretty sure you aren't voting for anyone.

[Yaw]

Well, there are mod prods out, so we'll either have those players here or have them replaced shortly. Then the lurker-wagons become normal information-wagons.

[Yaw]

I'm not ignoring active scum. I'm still looking for evidence in players' posts. It's just that the evidence right now points to a significant number of scum being inactive. Would you prefer we let them go through another day without any pressure, CoolBot? When exactly is it acceptable to you to go after the scum that aren't active? What's the big difference in lynching active or inactive scum? In my opinion,

any

lynch of scum is good for the town.

I would much rather have activity and catch the scum similar to how I got Korais. But since we don't have activity, we need to get the lurkers here so they can generate posts and we can determine if they're scum or not.

Besides, I

have

enough evidence against Djinn to justify a vote. He's lurking, and steadfastly refused to participate day 1 in any way. That's certainly enough to warrant suspicion.

[Yaw]

I just noticed we haven't had a vote count today. Could we have one?

Also, how long are the prodees getting to respond before replacements get called in?

[Yaw]

First, vote count please?

Second, in the interest of completeness, Quailman posted this in the Free Market Queue:

indentureddjinn started band camp Monday the 16th, so don't expect to see him this week...

Of course he also hasn't posted since day 2, which was

well

before the 16th, and there's no explanation of that. I think there's enough information there for a mod decision, at least for this case.

[Yaw]

The problem, CoolBot, is that since there weren't any deaths last night, it's pretty clear that a lot of scum

aren't

sending in their night choices (while I do think there are docs out there, and potentially other roleblocking roles, I don't think there are enough of them or that they're good enough to block 3 to 4 kills). That's corroborated by the mod claim that there were a depressing number of night choices. While you seem content to have this game get to a point where our ability to lynch scum is hampered by too many inactives, I am not.

In addition, I catch scum by what they've posted. If people aren't posting, I can't catch scum. So I see going after lurkers at this point as necessary. When exactly were you planning to get the lurker issue resolved, CoolBot? Were you content to just let them ride the game out? Perhaps you think we should be determining which of the lurkers are scum through psychic powers instead of lynch pressure?

I am starting to see IS's point.

FOS: CoolBot

[Yaw]

Since Djinn's last post was July 23 in this thread, and band camp started August 16, I vote replace.

[Yaw]

Ooo, I like tearing down revisionist history.

Let's look back at day 1, shall we?

I was the first one on the jediknight-wagon, stayed on it up to 10 votes and a role claim. Then I posted this in post 133:

We're at 10 votes with 13 to lynch. I would much prefer if we don't end this day before everyone has the chance to comment. I didn't expect this bandwagon to be so fast or decisive. Ideally, by the time we go into night, every role should have at least one post. Otherwise, we're just going to run into problems in coming days.

You'll note there's no unvote. There's no unvote until the next day. Now, at 10 votes, 11 when I unvoted, you certainly can't say I jumped off when the town decided to look hard at jediknight. I was contributing the entire time that bandwagon was gathering steam, and never once did I defend him. It was apparent jediknight was being lynched by the post I just quoted,

before

I unvoted. I think my actions point clearly to my unvoting being only a temporary measure to try to allow everyone in the game to contribute. Would you have preferred I advocate quick lynching? Those are

never

good for the town. Even if they result in a scum lynch (as this one did), lynching fast reduces the amount of information to analyze, which means less chance of catching scum in the long run.

Either you are misremembering, CoolBot, or lying. I'm leaning toward the latter.

[Yaw]

Whoever's in that role should at least have a chance to claim before being lynched. Although I am liking the example-making principle Tigris is advocating more than I should, it's probably because we have so

many

lurkers that it's quite annoying.

[Yaw]

Coolbot and Yaw are both seem sure the other is a Goblin (not Gollum, or a spider).

Wrong. I stated I was beginning to see IS's argument that CoolBot is scum. I never said anything about what group I thought he was with.

I'm not completly sure Yaw is goblin, but the evidence sure does point that way.

And your evidence is the lie you posted above? That isn't evidence. It's misinformation and you know it.

And this game was in serious danger of stalling waiting for people to post who were never going to post. And that was mostly the doing of Yaw.

It's stall now or stall worse later. The deadline for responding to mod prods is today, at any rate, so we should have lulu and Argoti replacing when mike gets here. Then we can find out if our worst lurkers are indeed scum.

[Yaw]

I already pointed out where your revisionist history was off. The details of what happened do not support your version of the events. I voted jedi early, then unvoted and revoted

well after

it was clear nobody else was being lynched. I unvoted well after he made that ridiculous role claim. I only unvoted because some people had yet to post, and others seemed lynch happy enough to want to end the day before they could. In order to get your interpretation of events, you have to shift the timeline of what actually happened. That is, what you are insinuating is that I unvoted when the bandwagon got up to around 3-5 votes, when in fact I unvoted when the bandwagon was at 11 votes, there had already been a roleclaim, and it had been abundantly clear for days that jediknight was being lynched. So yes, what you posted was false. I'm concerned that you're clinging to the false information, instead of admitting you misremembered or were misinformed.

[Yaw]

Sheesh. It took 8 days to complete day 1, which was plagued with lurkers and inactives. At least getting people here and posting means they're contributing, which means there's posts to analyze. Besides which, jediknight wasn't going to talk himself out of that bandwagon. Even when I unvoted, I never stated otherwise than that jediknight was scum, and was the right person to lynch that day.

Also, you're continually avoiding my question. When exactly

were

you planning to go after the lurkers? Were you planning to go after them at all, or did you prefer to just let them ride the game out?

FOS: meaning of life 42

, for not having an original thought this entire game, despite spamming. He's now my most suspicious among active players.

Mod, where are the replacements already?

[Yaw]

The thing is, which (ex) lurker to go for?

May as well go up the list in terms of how bad they were lurking. Since Djinn was the worst, we'll get a defense/claim from lulu, and if that works out we can move on to Murk/Argoti. I'd need a reread myself to determine who is worst after that -- probably Gaspode, but he's also up for replacement at the moment. Hopefully we'll hit something before we get that far.

[Yaw]

We're at 9 votes of 11. I agree with Jaylen -- a defense for lurking isn't going to do any good in this situation, because we have evidence that scum have been lurking. We really need a role claim.

[Yaw]

No. According to the front page, you're replacing Murk, Argoti. Lulu muumuu is replacing IndenturedDjinn.

[Yaw]

Nope. I just asked mikehart in AIM, and he says you replaced Murk.

Although it will be nice to have two lurker roleclaims to evaluate...

[Yaw]

You weren't voting for anyone. Why Jaylen, out of curiosity?

[Yaw]

While that's interesting, there wasn't a bandwagon on Jaylen. So who exactly were you following?

[Yaw]

Ok, MOL, don't

ever

do that thing with the question marks again. It screws up the page width on Mozilla, which makes the thread hard to read for the rest of us. You know, those of us who are actually trying to play the damn game.

Second, as Uraj said, it is your responsibility to catch up on what you missed. We all do appreciate you informing us that you'd be away, but that places no responsibility on us to give you a summary when you get back, especially when you missed maybe two pages.

Third, if you're voting for Argoti now,

after

he roleclaimed, then you'd damn well better acknowledge in your post that you at least are aware of the roleclaim. Even better, you'd better acknowledge that you read enough to figure out what the

vote count is

before you start voting people, if you're going to do it flippantly. If I am to believe what you posted, you wouldn't have had a clue if you were casting the lynching vote or not.

In short, please tone down the ADD and start contributing positively if you don't want people to start clamouring to lynch you on the basis of posting style.

My

patience with this is getting stretched thin.

[Yaw]

Complete agreement on Argoti. That said, we have a perfectly good bandwagon on Djinn/lulu, and it would be a shame to come away from that with no information. Since lulu's here, I want some contribution before I think about changing my vote.

[Yaw]

Well, the goblins have killed twice now, so whatever they have to do, they've been doing it.

Here's the problem, lulu. You replaced Djinn. There were kills by goblins and someone else (looking more like Gollum than trolls now, if Korais wasn't lying) nights 1 and 2 when he was around, and nothing night 3 by either group. This indicates that Djinn, and now you, are scum. Reiterating things isn't going to make that fact go away. I think you'd be best to roleclaim.

Mind you, that logic also applies to Murk/Argoti, but there's no point moving the entire bandwagon yet.

[Yaw]

What does that mean, getting Roac to translate your posts?

[Yaw]

This isn't holding together very well...

First of all, why would there be a role in which it would be advantageous

not

to post? And if that were the case, why wouldn't Djinn have just owned up to it when called on his lurking?

In addition, if you're trying to find Bard, who understands thrush to begin with, why would how often you post, or whether or not you're understood by dwarves make one whit of difference?

[Yaw]

No, I don't think she lost her night ability at all. I think she's making this up.

Look back at Djinn's two posts.

sorry I've been unimportant in this game. I've been really busy. I'll read and then I'll put in information for you.

sorry still reading thred, get back to you tomorrow

First of all, no mention of a post restriction, which I would expect rather early on if he were limited to one post per day. Second, post 2 by him occurred after a push had already started to just end the day already. If he were interested in using the claimed ability, then why did he bother to post that second time at all? If he weren't interested in using the ability, why not hold off and actually post content? No, it's pretty clear from what Djinn said that if he were deliberately trying not to post, it wasn't for any role-related reason.

If anyone has a role like that, they have to come out with it as soon as it is reasonable (see Modargo in DP9). Otherwise, they're just a lurker, and everyone knows lurkers get lynched.

I also seriously doubt that a mod would be motivated to include a role in which it was advantageous

not

to post, unless it was to hurt a town that was too powerful. But with what is looking to be 5 scum groups (trolls, Smaug, goblins, spiders, Gollum), and a lot of plain townies (the dwarves), there would be no possible reason to weaken the town. In addition, having that kind of a severe drawback for such a small advantage as finding a mason partner doesn't ring true. (Nor does it make sense story-wise -- the thrush was a messenger that appeared to Bard once, not a partner.)

[Yaw]

Both of Djinn's posts were on day 1. The last post was about a day before the end of it, and the first post was two days before that. Easiest way is to use the buttons at the bottom of the thread to display all posts from him, then cross-reference the dates and times. (At least, that's what I do.)

[Yaw]

I count 10 of 11 votes on lulu. I'd prefer to have an official vote count confirm that, of course.

To be honest, searchable mason roles aren't that uncommon. The idea is that once you find the person you're looking for, you become a mason group (know each other are innocent, can communicate at night).

My

problems with the roleclaim are with the posting restriction being improbable, and that the old thrush and Bard don't seem to make sense together as a potential mason group. That shouldn't be interpreted to mean that masons or searchable masons are unhelpful to the town.

[Yaw]

Well, according to the front post, Bard was an "FBI Cop". I wonder what that means? (Yes, I know investigative role. I mean what the FBI part means.)

So, first on

my

list to deal with is Argoti. Either he's a roleblocker, or he's scum. He should have multiple choices in by now (I'd assume Murk at least put in a night 1 choice), so there should be some way to confirm whether he's lying or not. I'm just not sure who should come out first -- a role that knows they've been roleblocked, or Argoti with his choices...

I'm also reconsidering whether we have a good or a bad wizard around. The death of our Ritalinboi means that Gandalf can take out whoever he wants, regardless of their role. That leads to the question of what he was thinking going after Jeep night 1, if he were good. And if he were evil, why aren't there wizard kills in the intervening nights? It can't be a roleblock -- KingEnigma's dead and if Murk/Argoti were a roleblocker there'd be missing choices from him the nights we didn't see wizard kills. This one has me perplexed.

I'll reread, probably tomorrow, and come up with something. In the meantime, Argoti's roleclaim makes him my best bet. Just not enough to be worth voting for him when there's a chance he can clear himself early in the day.

[Yaw]

As an important note, the thread title hasn't been updated yet.

The number to lynch is 9

. So watch your votes.

Good point, Tigris. Bard was likely to be keyed into finding Smaug (who died night 1), if we go by book roles. We're still doing incredibly well.

Lord Gurgi should be back from Ireland, so hopefully we'll be hearing from him shortly. At any rate, the vacation mitigates his lurkerness a bit, in my opinion. I'll re-evaluate that statement when I re-read, of course.

And MMCL, you've been quite the willing participant.

[Yaw]

If the target's supposed to be dead now, then I think it's best to kill him/her now. Otherwise the game just gets skewed. (Besides, it would be silly if we lynched someone who got killed last night.)

[Yaw]

Argoti -- as long as you're revealing, what were the rest of the choices your role has made?

FD -- any comment on the claim you were blocked last night?

[Yaw]

I can't see any reason for a mod to deny you info on night choices your predecessor made. In fact, I'd think that would be given to you automatically. Or that you'd push to have it as soon as you thought (as you did yesterday) that you were on the block for lynching.

I'm not buying this, but I still want to hear from FD before I vote.

[Yaw]

Eh, you're right. It's better if we don't reveal any more roles than we have to, and we don't really have to here. I was just hoping to be able to slip in a reread this day. Guess it'll have to wait for tomorrow.

Vote: Argoti

I'd like an official vote count, but from my skim I think this is the sixth vote.

[Yaw]

Well, now that he's confessed, can we finish him off?

You know, this game is nigh-impossible for scum under a bandwagon. No way to roleclaim properly...

Yeah, I've been reaching that conclusion myself. It's the reason I haven't been pushing for mass roleclaims or anything like that. I'm afraid it will break the game, and I'd prefer to win through my scum-catching skills than because there aren't any safe scum claims. That's my sense of fair play, I guess.

Also, I don't have that roleclaiming problem.

[Yaw]

Ok...I assume by the lack of an evil motive on the front page that Gandalf was pro-town. Still guessing on that one -- who can tell with IS? Kind of a moot point, though.

Best guess has 2 gobs and 2 spiders left. I'll reread tomorrow and hopefully come up with something.

And I will object strenuously to breaking the game through mass-claiming. My reasoning is purely from gamesmanship -- and if you look back at how I've been playing, you should see why I don't feel we need it to take out all the scum.

[Yaw]

Where

is

everyone?

Initial reread done. Stuff noticed:

Front page -- PeaceBringer's dead, and it isn't listed. Minor annoyance, but still.

Worse annoyance, your list of people who require replacement: Gaspode, Lord Gurgi, Narninian, Shivan_Dragon.

That said, it's apparent that at least one member of each remaining scum group is here, so we don't have to rely on hunting lurkers. I will, however, note that Lord Gurgi threw some accusations Jediknight's way on day 1 while never actually voting for him. I think that's worth checking out when the replacement for him shows up -- it could be indicative of Goblinness.

A couple of circumstancial FOSes go out here.

FOS: Uraj45

, and

FOS: Yggdrasil

. Both are due to long absences in the middle of the game. I think it's possible that at least one was scum away for the infamous night of no kills, and we're getting kills now because they're back. It's just a theory at this point.

I'm also not quite sure what to make of Tigris. On the one hand, she was the first to even mention the possibility of a spider group (and discounted it at the time on day 1, before there had been a spider kill). On the other hand, she somehow has Corsato listed as a spider on her analysis list of yesterday, and I find it strange she'd make that mistake if she actually were a spider.

Looking forward to replacements and input from others.

[Yaw]

Wine In Front Of Me. From

The Princess Bride

. For the full effect, read the script here -- the scene's about a third of the way down, between "Vizzini" and "Man In Black". (Thanks again for that link MMCL! )

[Yaw]

Yeah, I know this is going to look weird, but it's a different situation than earlier.

I don't think we can lurker hunt right now, unless we know we're hitting scum. The situation now is 7 to lynch, with 4 lurkers. We have, most likely, 4 scum out there, at least 2 of which are definitely active. I don't think we can bet on night kills catching scum, or doc-protected roles to help us. If we go after a lurker and it turns out to be a town role, we will quickly put ourselves into a situation where the sheer weight of the lurkers is enough for the scum to dictate our lynches. So far we've swept the board. We've done too well at catching scum to let ourselves get into an unwinnable situation like that.

Yes, I know I lurker-hunted earlier. But that was two days ago, with 7 more players alive, and enough evidence to

know

there were scum among the lurkers. Neither of those cases apply any more.

All this is to say that I would support a vote on a current lurker based on evidence like TSS's reason 2. Dead weight is no longer sufficient reason for lurker hunting, and I am afraid lynching lurkers for that reason could cost us the game. (And you'll note that I have never in this game advocated lynching due to "dead weight".)

In addition, Uraj and FD have yet to check in today. Since it's only 7 to lynch, we're screwed until they show up and some replacements get here anyway.

[Yaw]

Well, there are enough replacements signed up now, so hopefully we can get them all subbed in soon and this game back up to speed...

[Yaw]

Another run through, this time focusing exclusively on day 1. Yeah, I know about the spiders, but with the info that's actually in thread we're far more likely to catch goblins, so I'm gunning for them.

My top three Goblin candidates, in no particular order:

MMCL -- Mostly for his hedging between IS and jediknight before voting. I'll admit this is the weakest of the three.

TSS -- Voted for jediknight while FOSing IS (who was innocent) in the same post. Then the next day states that he doesn't find IS horribly scummy. Also, voted for jediknight post-claim, which leads me to think he was giving jediknight as much of a chance as possible to get out of the lynch before lowering the boom.

Lord Gurgi (now Quagmire) -- Never did vote for jediknight, despite clearly stating he didn't believe the claim. Didn't even express an intent to vote for jediknight in this circumstance. Went so far as to ask if others were going to vote or unvote with respect to the jedi-wagon.

I'll also admit that there's a good possibility that some of the day 1 lurkers are Goblins, and I just can't read them due to the lack of posting. I've mentioned some of them previously today.

I won't vote yet, as I want to see input from others. It almost feels like day 1 again, and I'm not as sure about scum as I'd like to be. If I had to vote now, it would go to Quagmire or TSS.

[Yaw]

Wonderful!

Vote: the silent speaker

.

Mostly because his last post is pure crap. Scum players are usually pretty willing to vote for their partners, if it means setting up a situation so they won't get caught later. That's why I'm having a hell of a time catching spiders -- Murk said nothing day 1, nobody related to him in any way, and Argoti claimed first post upon replacing with a role that was pretty clearly bad. Spiders had no reason

not

to vote for Argoti, and plenty of reasons to vote for him, because they ought to have known he was going to get lynched pretty quickly.

Similarly, I don't see any reason why goblins wouldn't have gotten on the Jedi-wagon day 1, even if it was against their own member. Note that pretty much everyone TSS mentions in his analysis was a lurker on day 1, which sufficiently explains their voting habits. His logic about Lord Gurgi being innocent is pure crap -- if you're getting lynched, why not set up an alibi for your partner in the future by voting for him? Cubsfan4life did it to me in Mini 112, for example, when we were both scum together. Also note that Lord Gurgi is the only one on TSS's list that he actually tried to defend, and then by not referring to a single reason I posted as to why he was suspicious in the first place. (That is, TSS is defending Lord Gurgi based on Jediknight's behaviour, not based on Lord Gurgi's behaviour. That's a serious problem.)

What is important in analyzing is not who voted for who, but

why

and

under what circumstances

.

[Yaw]

Quagmire: I'll try to give what I can here...

Your list of dead scum:

Jeep (Smaug) -- killed night 1
NanookTheWolf (Troll) -- killed night 1
Jediknight (Goblin) -- lynched day 1
Mr. Flay (Troll) -- killed night 2
korais666 (Troll) -- lynched day 2
IndenturedDjinn/lulu muumuu (Gollum) -- lynched day 3
Murk/Argoti (Spider) -- lynched day 4

The kills last night are consistent with the Goblin and Spider killing methods, so those groups are still around.

The town has been remarkably efficient, so only one person still alive has claimed fully. That would be CoolBot, who claimed that he was Bifur, a dwarf townie, on day 2. Tigris just made some semi-claim on the last page.

That's the non-opinionated part. The opinionated part is that it's easiest to catch scum by their reactions when their buddies are under attack, so if you're going to read anything over days 1 and 4, as well as earlier today of course, would be the places to focus.

TSS: If scum vote for their buddies, we most certainly are

not

back to random lynches. The reason is that scum really don't want to vote for their buddies, and so do it in odd ways that can be picked up. The mere fact that both the Jediknight and the Murk/Argoti lynches were so definitive means that your reasoning breaks down completely.

[Yaw]

No. Jeep was killed by Gandalf (IS). We're not sure why, since IS was pro-town. Most likely because IS is IS, which means he frequently does things that don't make sense to rational people.

[Yaw]

The reason is that scum really don't want to vote for their buddies, and so do it in odd ways that can be picked up.

But if they can get away with

not

voting their buddies, they will do it, for precisely this reason (and for some value of "get away with" which varies from player to player and from game to game) and therefore my reasoning is reinstated.

Sure, ignore the fact that the statement you quoted was conditional. My statement remains that scum voting for their partners does not mean we're stuck with random lynching, because scum voting for scum leave tells. As for whether scum will or won't vote for their partners, it really depends on the scum. The better players certainly would try to be in on the lynch wagons of their buddies, if they could do so plausibly.

You mean, that it was so evident that they were scum? In Argoti's case, I grant you; there must have been one spider on it anyway. We've established that. But it has not been established that there was a goblin on jediknight's bandwagon, and at least in the absence of any better leads, I think it's at least working into.

It is certainly not working info. You can't just assume that scum won't vote for one another, just as you can't assume they will. You'll never establish there was a goblin on the jedi-wagon until one turns up dead, and we can't wait for kindly spiders to be nice and catch us a goblin to prove a point. Getting hung up on this point of what the votes were instead of in what context they were cast is a great way to ensure we get nowhere in catching any goblins.

When I analyzed, I looked over every player left alive to see how they reacted to jediknight on day 1 and the lynching wagon, whether they voted for him or not. Unlike you, I'm not willing to just cut out half the town from my analysis. I've already explained why I initially thought you were suspicious. Perhaps you'd like to respond to some of that? For example, why did you put an FOS on IS when you joined the jedi-wagon, despite the fact that you were willing to follow him previously in voting for korais (based on, from what I can tell, trusting in his psychic powers)? Why did you then in your first post of day 2 decide that IS didn't strike you as horribly scummy?

[Yaw]

Maybe we should tap mlaker for the job? He

is

the backup mod, and at least that way it would be impartial.

[Yaw]

Is this thing on? Come on, I don't want to see a deadline brought down on us.

[Yaw]

FOS: willows_weep

, as that last post was almost claiming she

doesn't

have a named role.

Otherwise, waiting on the role claim.

[Yaw]

Ok. Not TSS then. For reasons above, let's try door number 2.

Unvote: TSS

,

Vote: Quagmire

.

[Yaw]

I don't do gut.

What I posted earlier about Lord Gurgi's behaviour day 1 that indicates possible goblishness was:

Lord Gurgi (now Quagmire) -- Never did vote for jediknight, despite clearly stating he didn't believe the claim. Didn't even express an intent to vote for jediknight in this circumstance. Went so far as to ask if others were going to vote or unvote with respect to the jedi-wagon.

That is, if you look over the posts from day 1, it looks like Lord Gurgi was paying lip service to the jediknight wagon, but was really trying to avoid actually being on it at all costs. It's really weird behaviour to ask if other people are going to lynch jediknight or not when you admit you think he's scum after a claim, and aren't on the bandwagon yourself.

[Yaw]

Unvote: Quagmire

on principle. I don't want him that close before he claims.

Can we get a mod-prod on Quagmire?

[Yaw]

Good point. V/LA thread says grounded until Wednesday, although there was a post from Quagmire yesterday in the Title Fairy thread. Guess there's not much to be done.

[Yaw]

Name, Quagmire?

[Yaw]

I prodded him, so hopefully it shouldn't be too much longer...

[Yaw]

Our mod isn't even here. I do think Quagmire looks like the best lynch for today, but I'll hold off for a bit still. No point just moving this to an excessively long twilight. At least in day we can still make changes in the unlikely event Quagmire beats the mod here and starts posting content.

[Yaw]

Aw...you lynched him before I could.

Now to prod the mod...

[Yaw]

Incidentally, mike's away at the moment -- I ran into him on AIM today. So mlaker will be sending us to night when he gets here. I'd suggest night choices be sent to both, for whoever has them...

[Yaw]

We should have 2 goblins and 1 spider left. Although that night scene was unique...

Goblins have been killing with scimitars. This is the first kill with a bow and arrow. I'm thinking that's likely the work of Bard, if he's in this game. The problem is that Bard should be good, and CoolBot already claimed that he was Bifur ages ago. Someone who didn't know what they were doing, perhaps? Very strange.

[Yaw]

You're right. I even checked the front page, and missed that Bard died. I don't recall goblins using bows in The Hobbit, though...

I agree with the Uraj suspicion, but won't vote for him yet because he requested replacement in all his games, so isn't here to defend himself. (Hint)

[Yaw]

Alright, may as well make the pressure serious enough to force content.

Vote: Shelper

That's 3 of 6.

[Yaw]

hm. For once, a plausible roleclaim.

Let me do the numbers.

11 players left.

5 dwarves left, including Thorin.
3 scum left.
1 hobbit left
most likely Beorn...

And that's 10. I'm leaning towards not believing it, because I can think of other minor roles I'd tend to include before Roac, and with dwarvish townies so far having the old bird as a townie as well seems a bit off. Still, I can't discount the possibility completely.

[Yaw]

I'm honestly not completely sure.

I do want to keep the sweep going, but I don't think this lynch is a bad thing in either case. Roac isn't a role that automatically has to be in this game (he was a named character, but with a bit part), so we can't confirm that way. The way I see it, we have 10 of 11 roles pretty well accounted for -- those people

have

to be in this game. So if we lynch Shelper and he's scum, wonderful. If we lynch Shelper and he's innocent, that's the mystery 11th role and we can't possibly be fooled by a scum roleclaim again. Either way, it looks pretty good. With 11 alive and 3 scum left (2-1 split), we have the leeway to recover if this is a mistake.

[Yaw]

Actually, I can explain...

I'm Bilbo Baggins. I'm your burglar. *waves*

So, this means I'm a copish role...but there are a few hitches. First of all, I was roleblocked night 1 (best guess, KingEnigma didn't trust me after the trick I pulled on him in Mini 112). I investigated the next two nights, the second of which I investigated IndenturedDjinn, and got his Ring. (Quite legitimately. Don't let him tell you differently.) This allows me to choose between investigating and night protecting myself with the Ring. Naturally, I've been using it ever since. I'm usually pretty able to lynch scum without investigating, and you'll see by the streak that's pretty well borne out.

So, what I didn't know until last night is that with the Ring I can see who targetted me at night. Both scum tried to kill me last night.

The last spider is Yggdrasil.

The last goblin is MMCL.

This game was broken, broken, broken.

Pretty much a coin flip as to who to lynch first. I say Yggdrasil, mostly because I want the amusement of hearing what MMCL would have claimed, and he gets back Wednesday night.

Vote: Yggdrasil

I can point to events in thread to back up my claim, so feel free to ask if you don't believe me.

[Yaw]

Nice try. You had 8 legs, man. There's a reason I said you were the last spider, rather than just "scum".

In addition, the lord of the eagles didn't actually have a name in The Hobbit. That came about in Fellowship of the Ring. So you're thematically out of whack.

[Yaw]

*facepalm*

Wow. The brokenness just went to 11.

Only one more needed to lynch.

[Yaw]

Effectively, yes. Not exactly, as I explained above -- it was a passive rather than an active investigation. But yeah, MMCL's the last goblin, so we're soon done.

[Yaw]

Even if it is, in this case I'm not sure it's something to be proud of...

[Yaw]

Ok, I'm going to list some things I noticed, mostly because I think having these pointed out will help you set up games better in the future.

1 - Worst problem here, we were playing a very large version of Lion King Mafia. What I mean by that is that there were no safe claims for the scum to make, and every claim made by a townie was automatically accepted as legitimate. This is bad because a mass roleclaim could have ended the game in favour of the town day 1. You need to allow some spaces where scum can make legitimate roleclaims (by leaving out some of the dwarves for instance -- you don't need all 13). You also need to give out some town roles that aren't automatic (random eagles or elves, for example).

2 - Too many super roles. Sure Gandalf was very powerful in the book, but giving him the ability to do

anything

just unbalances the game in favour of the town. Roles have to make sense within the game context first.

3 - Bulletproof roles. One bulletproof role is usually too much.

Two

is absurd, especially when they have powers in addition to being bulletproof. The danger here is that you're assigning roles randomly. What if Jeep had gotten Beorn? The game would have been the town's before night 1 even began.

4 - Never allow me near a role that needs luck. See Mini 112. Freaky things will happen with probabilities to get me to stay alive. 8)

5 - If the scum didn't stand a chance overall because of 1, the trolls certainly didn't stand a chance. Weakening scum against a very powerful town really hurts the balance.

6 - I'm not a fan of the passive investigation thing (Bilbo with ring and Beorn as man). It meant it was possible to figure out scum without actually involving any skill. The game should be determined by the skill of the players as much as possible, not if people hit a random land mine.

Hopefully that's most of it...