California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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I just wanted to check in and say that I am aware that they game has started but I'm too tired to contribute anything meaningful right now! The game appears to be advancing rapidly which is a good thing. I'll catch up with where we are at, tomorrow.
I also wanted to note that IH appears in the player list where it should be DP.
Until tomorrow, bon soir, tout le monde.-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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To be fair to Skruffs, I think many of us would also have been defensive in response to that very early bandwagon, and the fact it was gathering some momentum. And when a player is defensive an air of OMGUS usually appears in their posts, and it is natural to accuse an accuser of 'misrepresentation' or something similar which, when one has calmed down, one may realise was too strong of a word.
So, no opinion on Skruffs right now.
As I was reading over the day so far I noted down some names that pushed my buttons just a little. I will vote for the only one of them that I am aware already has a vote, and list the remainder (because it's a fun new rule).
vote: playswithsquirrels, cubsfan, Oman, Zindy, no lynch , MoS-
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Aw c'mon, we are playing a game here, not writing a piece of legislation. And it's Day 1. Besides, the list votes will only count if we cannot reach a majority; I am not really worried about that happening with the activity level we have here.Mgm wrote:List-votes are all potentially lynch-deciding votes, so each has to be well documented.
Also, I don't want to deter anyone from posting their votes and list votes. Reasons are nice but anyone can make up a reasonable sounding reason - I see scum do it all the time. The REAL info is in the votes.. who votes for who, and when. Having said that it only becomes very useful when a few people die and a few alignments are revealed. The reasons given are like the froth on the top.
In summary: Votes with reasons are slightly better than votes without reasons, but a vote with no reason given is far better than no vote.-
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I still don't see this as likely to happenSuppose for a moment we come to a deadline and the third person on jeep's list gets the chop and turns up town. How would that provide info? Would it make a difference if it was the sixth person on a list that died?at all, but I will answer you. It provides all the obvious information, eg. that the person was town, that Jeep wanted to lynch them as a 3rd/6th choice, and obviously others must have had him/her listed for a lynch as well. Now I ask to you, how much difference does it make if Jeep invents a logical sounding reason for all of those he has listed, to appease you? There are a thousand reasons he could make up, and people who have been playing this game a while are most likely going to be convincing. I am not saying that giving reasons never helps, I am sayingdon't stifle people from voting by pretending that it's a rule that votes must be accompanied by a reason. Because if I am still alive later in the game and re-reading over day 1 trying to find the scum, I will be looking at the votes first, the reasons second.
Zindaras: You asked about where and how the players I meantioned pressed my buttons - I didn't actually note down the details, just the fact that they did. This was mainly due to it being early day 1 and I don't care to expend too much energy this early
I am not going to vote Jeep today and would never advise lynching him Day 1 without solid incriminating evidence. He may be scum, but he might also be town.
I am on the fence with Lee as well, but I think he is an "out there" kind of player who stirs things up and should probably be watched closely but not lynched yet.
Am using my list as a reminder to myself who I am suspicious of; adding Mgm, upgrading Oman, removing no lynch.:
vote: playswithsquirrels, Oman, Cubsfan, Mgm, Zindy, MoS-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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I am here! mith sorted me out with a proxy, thanks mith.
I am going to stick with my vote on PWS for now. If there were any other votes on Oman, I would consider switching. They are my main 2 suspects.
I hesitate to say I think Skruffs is innocent as I really don't have enough info to be confident.. but I still maintain I could see a townie acting the way he did. I think I will read over his posts one more time and then make a call on whether I can support the bandwagon or not, seeing as he is the bandwagon du jour. I'll do this tomorrow if I get a chance
Re: Jeep... I do also kinda think he could be scum. I just haven't felt the townie conviction from his posts, I guess.
I'm not usually one who lists players who I have a good feeling are town, not this early anyway. I don't like to give the scum help in choosing their targets.-
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But mith loves Jesters!And knowing mith, the chances of there being a jester in the pool are astronomically small.-
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I am going to unvote PWS. Sounds like he's busy right now, and don't want him to feel pressured into asking for replacement. I hope he sticks around. Besides, a couple of other players have moved up my list.
Oman, unfortunately is getting replaced. But he was trying to fit in by posting analysis about all the players. He only got through three. But, as scum,it's hard workposting analysis about other players. You have to really think, can't just go with your natural reactions. I can understand why he stopped at 3, if he's scum. Also the comment about "gun-to-head", reinforces my impression that his analysis is a forced effort. So, scum. But I'll give his replacement a chance to settle in before placing a vote.
Cubsfan has only expressed suspicion of one player, LML. He mentioned something about weird vibes, but did not place a vote on LML (or anyone else...)
No vote gets my vote. Also, <3 Pooky. Also, IGMEOLML if cubs turns up scum.
unvote: playswithsquirrels, Oman, MOS, Zindy, PWS
vote: cubsfan-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Um, I haven't?Tamuz wrote:- Tally makes him happy? She hasn't said anything of importance or value
Gosh, I really don't like your tone. As long as I'm within the rules I actuallyTamuz wrote:Tally:
- Cubsfan #1 option, huh? You can't just tease us by saying "I find these people scummy" then not telling us why, unless you are trying to establish some worth to the town to keep you. But I'd rather your worth as far as the ideas in your mind be known rather than promised.
-Blows steam, says nothing about why she supposes the guilt that she does supposecanplay however I choose to. But did you actually read my posts? I coulda sworn I stated my reasons when I moved Cubs to #1. Skimmer.
I think you are the one blowing steam, and you're trying to draw me into an argument that in no way helpful to the town.
I think you deserve to be added to the voting list, but I'll read over the rest of your contribution first.-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Short answer: No.IH wrote:
In italics-Why? Wouldn't you think it more significant they didn't have a reason, or do you mean the later on condercent voting things.Talitha wrote:Because if I am still alive later in the game and re-reading over day 1 trying to find the scum, I will be looking at the votes first, the reasons second.
But sure... lack of reason accompanying vote could be significant for several different reasons, but notmoresignificant than the vote itself. (I don't really want to dwell too much longer on arguments that might be better fitted for the 'Mafia Discussion' forum )-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Good point, we need to get cracking here.IH wrote:Does day end in around 4 days?
Tamuz, I am not going to provide explanations for eveyone on my condorcet list. Especially not early on day 1. If it means you can't follow me well so be it. You'll just have to read the thread and make up your own mind Plus I am happy to answer questions that arent just an attack on my play style.
So, it's interesting to note my two top suspects are voting for LML ... I'm not sure if this means Lee is innocent, or if he's getting bussed, or if i'm wrong
I'm still liking the cubs vote though.-
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If you really wanted to know, you could have just asked! Nothing personal but I am going to ignore you for a little while, because (with my limited time available to play this game) I have been distracted by your opinions about me, and not paying attention to everyone else. And with a deadline fast approaching that's not helpful.Tamuz wrote:I don't want explanations for everyone, just cubs. He is the one in my eyes that I don't see any real reason for you to treat him as you have. And you avoid tooth and nail explaining to me why.
(Will post more shortly when I am caught up.)-
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BattleMage:
Respite is not helpful right now, neither is unvoting. We need to get more bloodthirsty otherwise we'll end up with the situation that I sneered at and said would bever happen! (Condorcet lynch).the mod wrote:deadline is September 10th, 9:30 GMT
BM,even scum can make up nice-sounding posts. Your 'I'll give you a break for now but reserve my right to jump back on the bandwagon' post is making me start to look at you with more interest.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, but this doesn't apply here as Skruffs was nowhere near in any danger of being lynched at that time. ThereMgm wrote:Perhaps he was worried about someone pushing a faulty case too far? I don't think the attacks on DP have merit, so I defend him. There is a chance I change my opinion later, but someone who is getting attacked with what you perceive to be craplogic (or one of its cousins) is enough reason to save them from a day one lynch.wasno case for the Skruff's lynch at that point, but I would expect people with true town intentions to be interestly weighing up the evidence that the bandwagon was generating. The only reason i can see for opposing that bandwagon at that point is a scum who is trying to appear nice and benign and town-ish. I don't believe Cubs would have had enough of a conviction that Skruffs is innocent to act the way he did that early on, if he were a clueless townie.-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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I stayed up late tonight to make sure I was caught up on all the posts in this thread before I made my final vote.
I still see Cubs as the most likely scum of anyone. I am tending towards town for BattleMage. I am tending towards scum for Lee, but unsure of myself on that one. IH seems less scummy to me that Oman did, but the suspicion is still there.
Gaspar is proving to be a worthy replacement for PWS. I feel comfortable with GASPAR because of the amount of text being posted in a short time makes me feel that they are comfortable in the role and therefore less likely to be scum.
xyzzy moves onto my list because I realised he was flying so low he wasn't even on my radar. He voted once, very early and has not updated his vote or list at all since.
Dani/Mos is the other who is far too below radar for me to leave them off the list.
I am curious about Adele too.
vote: cubsfan [Oman, Dani, xyzzy], [Lee, Adele, Zindaras]
I have no idea what this does to the condorcet lynch, but hopefully people posting after me will have more clue and will ensure a lynch.
Votes/Unvotes not appearing at the bottom of the post are not counted. Tags removed. - Mod-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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I still have yet to get my head properly around all these latest developments, but right now I'm interested in Dani. I can't really relate to Dani's confidence that the two people mentioned are town. The opinion as expressed seems a little strong to me, considering how hard i am finding it to get a read on people in this game.
Also, MoS early on seemed more defensive about being voted for than I would have expected if he were town.
So, until I have time to reassess all other players,
vote: Dani Banani-
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I am wondering what people who are having a tough time reading people in this game should actually say so as to please Pookybear. I am not going to make up some reasons to make myself sound better, that is the gameplay of scum.
"it also alerts the scum as to who is confused about the game so that they know who they don't need to kill." And our vote lists don't? C'mon Pooks, this kind of reasoning isn't up to your usual standards
Anyway, I acept the point about being non-commital, I will rectify that, but not tonight as i am too tired.-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Pooky! Your whole argument rests on the assumption that people are correct in their own assessments of whether or not they have a good read on "everybody in the game" (thanks for putting words in my mouth )! Clueless townies can really only guess whether their read is any good! It's the scum who have the info. Clueless townies can also help the town by posting their thoughts and feelings about the game as they go and helping others to get a read on THEM.
PS I don't think this argument is very helpful. i want to put my time into reassessing the other players rather than responding to "mafia discussion" type issues.-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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1. I have NOT repeated it. I mentioned once. I did NOT say "can't", I said it was difficult. I feel like I'm channelling Skruffs from day 1 here but if you are sincere in trying to catch scum, PLEASE get your facts right and make your comments accurate.Dragon Phoenix wrote:Talitha: do not like post 685. You cannot keep repeating that you can't get a read on players - sounds very non-committing and scummy to me. Likely scum.
2. Your accusation doesn't make much sense because in the post you talk about I DO commit, make a vote, and give a reason.
3. The 'having a hard time getting a read' waspart of the reason for my voteand therefore had to be said!!
4. The 'offending' comment of mine was partially due to how I felt about being wrong about cubsfan. You (DP) were also wrong about him, in fact you referred to him also as "likely scum" in post 231. This is interesting to me, because I think that of everyone in the game, DP should have been able to relate to what I said. He gets a FOS, for now.
To everyone: I am still catching up with the game and have only had time to skim and respond to things directly concerning me. The annoyance I mentioned earlier is mainly due to having a bad week and was not directed at anyone in this game.
Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod-
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I am almost caught up but my eyes have been glazing over the last couple of pages.
I know that mith does not like players to be lynched or spared based on their role claim (remember the 'lynch or lynch not; there is no claim' avatar?), so I think we will do better to look at the play and not give the claim too much importance.
So I have my reservations about both claims, but in Lee's favour is the fact he survived the duel with cubs which is making him look pretty innocent.
I am extremely interested in the discrepancy between the role cubs claimed and the role revealed on death. I am going to hazard a guess that cubs did not intentionally lie, and that this is some kind of mod bastardry. (If he was really just Kirk Kevorkian, how does the duel fit in???) A wild speculation I had is that maybe we each have two roles.. a monte cristo one, and a (loosely) corresponding Fresno one, but we are only told one or other of the names.
In other news I am really liking the foolinc wagon.
I will give my opinion on all players this weekend, but for now just the list:
(Thesp only just makes the list, to remind myself to look at him more closely.)
unvote: DaniAdele, Dani, IH, Mgm, Pooky (huggles), Skruffs, Tamuz, Thesp
vote: foolinc,-
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Dani, you only responded to one of Thesp's suspicions. What do you think of the other suspicions against you? I am a little surprised you didnt say anything about the supposedly threatening post towards me...
When I get around to posting a new condorcet list I am going to move Dani back up into 1st or 2nd as (from memory) I put Adele above Dani, but I've never played with Adele before and a lot of my suspicion on her has come from other people's opinions.-
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i'm not buying this from Dani. I don't think he really believes that Thesp is a lyncher. How often does a lyncher come up in a closed setup forum game? Hardly ever, and I'm sure Dani is aware of this. I think bringing up the lyncher is just a convenient reason (based on memories of Thespival) for Dani to back up his OMGUS against Thesp.Dani Banani wrote:@Gaspar/Glork
not sure if you still wanted a response from me, seeing as you saw the reaching i was talking about, but i've only played w/ a lyncher role 2x that i can recall, and both of those were in RL @ Thespival... the first time, Thesp was the lyncher w/ me as the target, the 2nd time, Talitha was the lyncher w/ me as a target... Thesp's argument from this game reminds me of the subtle stretch to make someone look like scum that he used from Thespival... so, no, it's not OMGUS, it's based on experience... (too bad i can't see how's he's sitting, THAT would give it away)...-
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I'm not sure about the secret words... I believe they probably have some function in the game, but whether putting them out there is a good idea is anyone's guess. The only thing I am worried about with keeping them secret is that they can be lost when a player dies. But we don't know whether they can even help the town, or whether they could hurt the town!
It reminds me of a game at MoSfest where the mod gave us a big red button and said we could push it at any time. We never pushed it.
I think I brought up that example because my gut is telling me to err on the side of caution and keep secret words secret.-
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At the start of the game I had foolinc down as a likely townie, just because his 'roles that might be in the game' and speculating on which roles the mafia might have, and seeming pretty genuine, didnt strike me as something a mafioso would likely do. Then I moved him to 'unsure', as the way he popped into the thread with helpful comments (eg. Reminding me to put my vote at the bottom of a post, etc.) made me feel like he might be scum keen to appear extra helpful.
Then Gaspar posted this:
Which pushed my suspicion of foolinc even further, as I would expect someone who is genuinely trying to find scum would reassess things after a lynch and a nightkill and all that added information.It seems that all Fool did was modify his end-of-day VC from yesterday by bumping up the people who were mutually suspected by the dead players. While it shows consistency, I have to question Foolinc's failure to take into account any of the discussions today, as I just indicated above.)
So there you are foolinc, that's why I'm voting for you. But as I've been looking over foolinc's posts I'm feeling less sure about him being scum.
My vote list may change.. I want to look over a few other players' posts too.
unvote: foolincIH, foolinc, Pooky (huggles), MrBuddyLee, Mgm, Skruffs, Tamuz, Thesp, Gaspar
vote: Dani,-
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Something about the way IH (see post 924) is reacting to every single post and bumping people up and down his list as he reads singular posts seems verymechanicalto me... I can understand players who play by their gut, and I can understand players who insist on trying to apply logic, but I tend to believe that IH is trying to give the appearance of hunting scum, while not actually hunting scum.
Ah but he's already second on my list, so that's good.-
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It's the way you're doing it, that's scummy. It seems like you are examining each post out of context, with very little thought, rather than thinking about the game and players' posts as a whole. I think it's a good sign that you're scum, unless you want to try and convince me you always play like this.IH wrote:You're joking, correct? Me trying to make sure everything is covered is scummy?
IH wrote:Also Tally, some things you seemed to have missed and just not responded to, which i thought you might want to do.
You didnt even say why you hate my reasoning, so I'm at a loss as to what you want a response to. However this is a good example of your mechanical treatment of individual posts.IH wrote:I hate this reasoning. Bumping Talitha up.
Indeed, but i wasn't concentrating on them at that time. Foolinc hadIH wrote:I believe CES and MGM both did this though.askedabout why i was voting for him and i was explaining my thought processes about him as the game went along. Please note that foolinc is no longer my top vote. Pay attention to context, sir!-
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Wouldn't a dayvig worry to some extent about a cop investigation clearing xyxxy? Or the possibility that he's a power role with results to share? Vigging start of day seems like a terribly reckless venture to me,Anyvig would worry about those things, but they do (and probably should) kill anyway. Unless they actually claim and express their intention to kill someone shortly, there's not a lot that can be done about it.
For those who are voting Mgm, I would like to hear your opinion on his claim.. do you think Eugenie was a safe claim provided by the mod, or a fake claim that Mgm researched and planned to make right from the start of the game, hoping that no-one else had that role?
Or is there another possiblity that I have not thought of? Because I don't think that either of the two scenarios that I mentioned are very likely.-
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My first reaction is... Holy crap!
So, IH and Dani are still my top suspects... the condorcet lists might give some interesting information now too.
I'm also going to look at where Thesp was on people's condorcets... scum buddies might have listed him as higher than would be expected.
(I normally wouldn't verbalise all this stuff. But in this game the choice is to type out what I'm thinking, or talk about football).
(Football post coming later).-
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Not necessarily foolinc, as it seems we have 2 scum groups. The scum would probably know from the size of their group that there's likely another family out there. I think Lee's point about IH is the best evidence that we have so far.
And yeah - it looks like Thesp's group must have killed Skruffs. Interesting.
And who were the players making a fuss about the "Yay Thesp" comment? I think one was Pooky but I'm too lazy to go searching right now.-
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It's slightly odd, and makes you look slightly more suspicious, but each scum group might have thought the other group would kill you.
Not ruling out the possibility of a scum doctor either. I don't know enough about the theme to know whether your claimed character could be aligned with a scum faction. Anyone who knows the book care to comment on this?-
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OK listen very carefully. I shall say this only once. I do not have knowledge of the game setup. I have not expressed "confidence" or "certainty". I did speculate based purely on what I saw in this morning's opening post and on a slightly unexpected night outcome. I put forward two explanations and implied preference for one of them. MBL - why are you asking me about stuff which is in the book when I've already said I'm not familiar with the book?
LML - Don't get me started on WIFOM. It's the most useless and overused acronym ever, and I only ever see it when someone wants to shut down a discussion that I think is interesting and potentially helpful. And if you think I am trying to get foolinc lynched (is that why you're voting me? i am having problems following your posted thought processes in this game) then it's kinda weird that my theorizing (that everyone is commenting about) involves him being town. (BTW in your post you have foolinc as lower than no lynch on your condorcet, yet you're disturbed about his secret word not being very pro-town. Which is it Lee?)-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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That's an interesting observation about LML's post, Sarcastro. I'm probably going to get myself in more trouble here for speculation, but I don't think that the mod would make a serial killer who had to post the name of the victim in capital letters in the thread immediately before the victim died - that seems like too hard of a role, to me. However, mafia member with an extra day-kill seems like a possibility. It might be a coincidence.. i think LML is a player who likes to post in caps a lot.. but the capitalisation of the name in that post DOES seem a bit out of place. I think we can probably rule out vigilante... if he's a vig, that means he lied about his role, and Lee seemed way too willing to claim to be a pro-towner who needed to lie to protect his identity.
I need to look at the duel and Cubs' role more closely. Is it possible Cubs justthoughtthat he could kill scum (just like hethoughthe was the Count of Monte Cristo?)
FOS: LML
Why I think IH needs to die.My answer is in two parts. Firstly the behaviour of Oman and to a slightly lesser extent IH has always struck me as likely scum. I'll back this up when I go over the thread, hopefully tomorrow. Secondly the roleclaim. I think IH made a mistake when reading the example role that the mod gave us - a little misunderstanding that caused him to think that there are townies in the games called 'Innocent Fresninos' when in fact I believe that every role PM has an actual proper name - 'Innocent' being the first name in the example role, and 'Fresnino' being the surname. (This was hard to explain... I hope it's understandable.)-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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If I were scum, Gaspar, and I thought i had found a possible SK, or someone that I could convince others was an SK, I would be following it like a hound. A bit like you are.
FOS: Gaspar
As it is I see two FAR better candidates to be discussing right now and other people are dismissing them to talk about the MOD, who isn't even a player for crissakes. What are you trying to achieve here? Go ahead, lynch the mod, likely get us a no-lynch and a lost day. Whatevs.
Pooky - what do you think about Mr Grey?
Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod-
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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Talitha Dr. Dead
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