Fritz's Fav Fictional Figures Faction Fest - Game over

[Sarcastro]

Vote: IH

PJ is clearly pro-town.

[Sarcastro]

So why isn't IH dead yet?

[Sarcastro]

Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur

Quickly, my friends! Scum has revealed itself! Lynch him before he gets away!

[Sarcastro]

Guys, I'm a daycop. Tarhalindur is scum. JDodge is my copmason. ONWARD!

[Sarcastro]

Guys, my other mason, who can travel through time and tell me about my future investigations, has just informed me that everyone who votes for Ibby is scum.

[Sarcastro]

Jordan: who are you to judge other peoples random votes?

Sarc: ZOMG PARADOX if we kill the people who your time traveling mason buddies say are scum then you never investigate them, so we never lynch them, thus making them eligible for investigating so we can lynch them today WAAAGH!

UA = Obviousy pro-town.

Help me kill Tarhalindur/IH/Xyzzy/etc, please.

[Sarcastro]

Super special awesome Jellyskillz?

[Sarcastro]

Help me kill someone, please. This day is taking way too long.

[Sarcastro]

Unvote, Vote: JordanA24

Bandwagon time! Die scum die!

[Sarcastro]

Less whining, more claiming.

[Sarcastro]

Oh, I'm sorry, did you want to just pause the bandwagon and have a tea party? Or did you just want us to kill you so that you don't have to think up a fakeclaim?

Given how fast this wagon developed, Jordan, it would look very very good for you if you gave a convincing claim right now, because scum would definitely want to have more time to think up a convincing claim in this sort of a theme game. So yeah, claim now or die.

[Sarcastro]

Tick tock, Jordan. The window for convincing me you're not frantically trying to think of a fakeclaim right now is rapidly closing.

[Sarcastro]

Voting for Sarc is the oldest trick in the scumbook.

I feel that the only appropriate course of action is to try to wagon IH, even though he is no longer voting for me.

Vote: IH

[Sarcastro]

His vote on me was obviously his way of declaring me confirmed innocent.

[Sarcastro]

Hey guys. Turns out that I'm not scum. So if we're going to lynch someone for no reason, why don't we at least lynch someone like IH?

[Sarcastro]

Axelrod was awesome in Worst Role Evar. I'm not sure I like PJ's reasoning that much, though, since I could totally see Fritzler putting in a role that forces someone to bandwagon or somesuch.

Nevertheless,

Unvote, Vote: Flameaxe

I wouldn't mind forcing him to claim.

[Sarcastro]

As far as I can tell, Flameaxe wasn't voted for yesterday. Flameaxe, is this true?

Sarc is stalling on explaining the D2 opening post.

Wait, what? You want me to explain the D2 opening post? Why? Because I was mentioned in it? How would I know anything about it?

[Sarcastro]

Okay, yeah, I like crazy bandwagons as much as the next person, but I'm not a huge fan of the ones that are on me. Could people start giving actual reasons for their votes? Or even, y'know, write related sentences? I would really appreciate it.

[Sarcastro]

Well, you're obviously scum.

Where did I call anyone stupid? As far as I can tell, I was complaining that nobody was giving any sort of reason for voting me, an easily verifiable fact. Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

You consider me the best vote at present? Really now? And why would that be? Because it's the

easiest

vote, given that a bandwagon has inexplicably developed on me?

So if I'm the best vote, why aren't you voting me? While we're at it, why is your first real sentence of the game a lame attempt at making me look scummy by lying about what I've said? On day one all you did was vote for Glork and then for Jordan, without any attempt at explanation in either case. But now you've stopped to defend a vote you haven't even placed. Don't feel like sticking your neck out too much? Was it easier hopping on the Jordanwagon because PJ gave a reason for it? Do you feel safer just quietly supporting this one?

By the way, if I had called the people on my wagon stupid (which I won't, because I don't resort to ad hominem attacks), I would have had a pretty good reason for doing so - the wagon on me makes no sense! What I'd really like to hear is

your

reason for defending the wagon against my perfectly reasonable claim that it is baseless.

[Sarcastro]

I like the cut of your gib, even if you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

First things first: please, stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "they have trouble stringing sentences together", I said that they should write sentences related to their votes. Look at some of the people who've voted for me. Half of them have not only not given a good reason, but have not even written

anything

besides a vote for me.

For clarification, who's "this guy"? Flameaxe? I'm not really sure what you're accusing me of doing, and I'm not really sure why you consider it scummy. I'm sorry, but your last paragraph is not at all clear.

[Sarcastro]

I will not be complicit in the lynch of HK-47. I totally buy Flameaxe's flavour and none of the nightkills match HK-47 flavour-wise (he can't even use blades in the game, only blasters and the like). The thing about partners is valid, obviously, but I want to keep Flameaxe alive for now.

I'd appreciate if all the people who voted for me based on that weird message got off. I defy anyone to actually give me a reasonable scenario in which that message says anything about my alignment.

Also, Glork + IH + MoS = scum x 3.

Unvote, Vote: Glork

Die, please.

[Sarcastro]

Why are MoS, Thin, Sarc and Flame still alive?

why do you want me dead?

It probably has to do with your tendency to sneak out at night to murder people.

[Sarcastro]

Actually... Sarc, of the people who have wagoned you today, I'd like to know why you picked the three of us (with "wagoning" used as a loose term, as neither MoS nor I actually

voted

for you).

Gut.

[Sarcastro]

No. Do better than that. I'm done fucking around, and I'm going to start laying down the law 'round here.

Maybe you could start by explaining why your vote on UA is "for schtealing [your] schelf-voting schtick", because that's the only reason you've given. Oh yeah, and that was back on day one. So excuse me if I'm sensing a little hypocrisy here.

Why didn't you vote for me if you thought that it was a good idea? Becuase UA's theft of your schtick was just so scummy?

[Sarcastro]

Actually, it's currently on UA because I'm thinking that the SlasherScum is probably a scumchatter. Admittedly, now that I think about it, UA has been relatively scarce in ScumChat as of late, and my vote is probably better suited to somebody who has actually been active in ScumChat recently, such as yourself or IH.

Anyway, I've mostly seen some bad OMGUS from you, I don't like the "gut" explanation, and it smells like a further attempt to contiue a

VERY

bandwagony trend. D1 ended prematurely due to some bad wagoning, D2 started off with a couple of big wagons, and we've already forced a couple of claims for no reason at all. Now that I've actually read through the game with an eye for what's going on, I'm a little miffed that we're at Page 9, and people seem to be throwing votes around like this is a late-night UPick game in ScumChat.

Why do you think the slasher is a scumchatter? Because of his targets? I'm really not seeing the logic here.

Even if you're correct, I'd be interested to know why you think someone who's been in scumchat more frequently recently is more likely to be the slasher (and I'd also be interested why you'd put me in the same category as IH in scumchattitude).

Well sorry, Glork, but I'm feeling pretty good about my gut right now. Maybe it's just the fact that I was right about the scum in Royal Family - I tend to doubt myself a lot when I think a good player (like you or Thok) is scum, and the fact that I pinpointed Thok as scum based on gut and a bit of metagame has made me a bit more confident. I don't like what I've seen from you so far - you do not seem like the pro-town Glork I know. Maybe that's just a result of everyone playing oddly in this game, but right now I think you're scum.

And it's not OMGUS if you have a reason to believe the person is scum.

However, I'm willing to help you bus IH if you'd like.

[Sarcastro]

To be honest, I'm a lot less confident in my evaluation now that you're actually playing properly. I think I've gotten a little too caught up in being superaggressive, so I'm going to step back and re-evaluate my play. I realise it probably doesn't look very good to suddenly back off like this, but I figure it's better to step back than dig myself into a hole by continuing to be bull-headed about this.

And I still want everybody voting for me to give me a good reason. "It's based on the Day Two opening post" is not good enough, because it doesn't actually explain why some random thing saying I'm an atheist is a good reason to vote for me.

[Sarcastro]

IH's vote on me and his vote on UA at the beginning of today were both extremely weak. UA was wrong about Jordan, so he's scum? Yeah, well, so was half the town.

MoS asking that

I

explain the opening post makes no sense. That's just looking for the easy reason behind a bullshit wagon.

[Sarcastro]

I realise it probably doesn't look very good to suddenly back off like this, but I figure it's better to step back than dig myself into a hole by continuing to be bull-headed about this.

Ironically, that's almost exactly what I was thinking as I made the "feh, you're probably not scum" post based on the wagon against you.

I'm still curious as to your meta towards me. The last two times I was scum were Space Monkey (in which I played similarly to the way I started off this game) and 8-Bit (in which I was ruthlessly logical and in fact managed to lead a lynch on a Mafia Spy). I know you're familiar with both games, and I remember you mentioning 8-Bit in ScumChat once, so I was confused as to how you felt what "not protown Glork" meant, hence my questions to you.

Yeah, well, maybe my meta on you isn't very good. For the record, though, even though you were logical in 8-Bit, you were also very very aggressive. Compare that to, say, Covert Ops (first game I thought of where we were both in it and you were town), where you were far more reserved. Based on other games I've read, too, I tend to associate aggressive-Glork with scum and reserved-Glork with town. Maybe it's not an entirely fair meta, but it's my immediate association.

[Sarcastro]

Wait, you think I was

reserved

in CoOps? In one of my very first posts in that game, I demanded that the players massclaim their codenames, and I went balls-to-the-walls to defend that demand as long as possible. Then that whole DGB thing happened. I honestly think that's the most angry, aggressive game I've had aside from my hatred for the Huggle Alliance in the original Lights Out.

Well, memory can distort things, but the main point was that you weren't voting or calling people out very aggressively, you were arguing aggressively. Now, maybe that was just because of the nature of the game - it was more about using roles to find people than using traditional scum-hunting skills (your first vote, for DGB, came over a month after your first post). Like I said, though, that was my association. After reviewing it, I'm less sure.

I'm also a lot less sure that I even had enough to go on in this game to apply any sort of a meta. So yeah, I mostly just got carried away.

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, well, I'm sure my meta on Thok probably sucks too, but I was still right about him in Royal Family.

We'll see whether or not I'm right eventually.

[Sarcastro]

Is Thin Man an alt?

[Sarcastro]

Is Thin Man an alt?

Who are you addressing, fucking Santa Claus?

What, are you retarded? I was asking anyone who knew, obviously.

[Sarcastro]

Well, considering you bothered to call me a "godawful player", I figured that you probably wouldn't be willing to answer me if I just asked you.

[Sarcastro]

PS: You have genuinely been a shitty player since you got back though. You've really just been lazy and conceited and really just stalled out at OK.

And this is based on what, this one game? Have we even been in a game together?

So you like hiding behind your alt while you throw ad hominem attacks at people for no reason. Well, geez, that's mature.

If you really care, I don't think I've played as well since I came back either, but I really don't appreciate you just insulting me.

[Sarcastro]

Unvote, Vote: Cephrir

Hey Skruffs. Help me lynch the fence-sitting scum.

[Sarcastro]

Errr, actually I was voting UA because someone asked him a question and he used a mountain of others reasoning without stating his own....

I cant see any Discworld character being a straight-up vanilla townie

Kay.

unvote, vote:UA

I also don't like how he quoted that mountain of text and didn't add anything to it.

Hm. Seems to me like your stated reason was actually just a secondary reason that you added to your initial, extremely weak reason.

The biggest question I'm wondering is... why was Tar killed? I mean, I don't think Tar was scummy enough for a vig kill. I'd assume scum would have a better kill, so

why

was Tar killed?

A better question is this:

why

are you trying to speculate uselessly about nightkills?

[Sarcastro]

Care to address my other point?

[Sarcastro]

The point is to lynch Cephrir.

Duh.

[Sarcastro]

I think we'd be more productive lynching Sarcastro or Glork at this point. Probably more Sarcastro, but either way we could make a lynch today that would provide useful information, unlike that Day 1 lynch.

Lynching Sarc is never productive.

I'm kind of ambivalent about lynching Glork. I'd rather lynch Cephrirscum, though.

[Sarcastro]

I really don't like how you started this wagon (and how people followed you with weak reasoning). It seemed pretty opportunistic, if you ask me.

I really don't like how you're scum.

[Sarcastro]

I notice that Cephrir is still alive. This distresses me greatly.

[Sarcastro]

I'm voting UA still?

Unvote, Vote: Blight

So what you're saying is that you're Cephrir's scumbuddy, yes?

Cephrir is today's lynch; Blight is tomorrow's. Pay attention.

[Sarcastro]

Eh, I can accept a Blightwagon. Cephrirscum dies tomorrow, then.

Unvote, Vote: Blight

[Sarcastro]

Cool.

So why haven't you claimed yet, scum? Still thinking of something?

[Sarcastro]

Guys, I'm starting to think MoS might be scum.

What, you just re-read your role PM?

The sarc and kscope behavior I can't discern yet. Maybe a 'bandwagon cult'.

Recruit me plzkthx

No problem.

Why isn't Blight dead yet? This town has reallly dropped the ball since Day 1.

[Sarcastro]

Feel free to start bussing Blight any time now.

[Sarcastro]

Oh wow, seriously?

I am so incredibly sure Blight is scum.

1. It's not rolefishing; I blatantly asked you for a claim.

2. I think I've made it clear why you and Cephrir are scum. What else do you want? You're not the first person to notice that my posts are short, Blight. It's not a scumtell, at least not for me.

3. I'm not jumping on any bandwagon I can. I'm voting for people who are scum. And why are "three votes" suddenly a bandwagon? I could have just stayed on Cephrir if I wanted the biggest wagon, but I was convinced that you're a better lynch for today.

So, yeah. You've blatantly mischaracterised me in an attempt to fabricate a reason to get your vote off of someone you now realise was not a good target at all and onto someone you think you can lynch more easily. Good luck with that.

Claim please, scum.

[Sarcastro]

Okay, wow, I didn't realise that people had so much trouble understanding what role-fishing is.

Role-fishing is not asking for a claim. Role-fishing is trying to subtly get role information. I'm asking for a claim because I'm being overly-agressive and overly-confident. It's a playstyle. I don't actually expect to get a claim until a few more people vote for Blight. Is this difficult to understand?

Why are you voting for me, Yagami? Would you like to explain why scum would be more likely to ask for a claim at three votes, for any reason either conscious or subconscious? You can't just vote for someone based on what, the fact that you think asking for a claim right now is bad play? Why would I do it as scum? What do I gain? This isn't proof that I'm not scum, obviously, but it's pretty clearly a null tell. I'm going to act like this whether I'm scum or town, so you're better off actually looking for real tells.

[Sarcastro]

I think JDodge summarised nicely why Blight is full of crap.

Jordan was scummy. PJ provided a good argument. Don't act like I was the only person to believe it. The Flameaxe wagon was a little weak, I admit, but it's not like I had anything better to do. As for you and Cephrir, I have very very very good reasons for think that you're scum.

Stop calling the three votes on you a bandwagon. By the way, I was the first person to call you out, so don't act like I'm just leeching off of someone else. I merely kept my vote on another very scummy person until I was convinced that you were a better lynch. I would've been the first person onto Cephrir, too, had Theo not beat me to it.

Stop making up crap. You "may not follow the popular trend"? You give incredibly scummy reasons to oppose bandwagons. Given your obvious "bandwagonning = scummy" association, this is a pretty good scumtell in my mind. Don't act like all reasons are equally valid. Yours are scummy nonsense, and you should be lynched as quickly as possible.

[Sarcastro]

I don't see the point of anyone claiming at this point. Blight has three votes with what ten to lynch.

Asking for a claim frankly is pointless, I just don't know whether Sarcastro is being idiotic on purpose or just can't help being idiotic.

[Sarcastro]

You were fishing for a claim. Whether it was subtle or not isn't really the point. Why would you make it so blatant? I don't know. Maybe you realize that my join date says 2007 and you figured I'd be stupid enough to let it slip. Maybe you thought three votes would be enough to pressure me. I don't know why you'd be so blatant. The fact is you are.

Oh yeah, and I figured that Glork and PJ and Ibby are all retards too, right? Or maybe, just maybe, the reason

they

don't think it's scummy is because

it's goddamn not

. It's clearly a matter of playstyle.

Note that I referred to Cephrir as "fence-sitting". That's a pretty obvious scumtell. Thanks for playing.

You're right, I didn't outline exactly why you're scum. I just figured it would be obvious that your extraordinarily weak attack on Theo was scummy. Clearly it's not obvious to you, but it was obvious enough to everyone else that they didn't bother to question me about it.

[Sarcastro]

I can't figure out if Sarc is scum or just being a pain in the ass. I do think he's pretty funny right now, though.

Sarc, can you explain why you keep asking for claims? Is this something new you've adopted or a playstyle transition of yours that I've missed? .. got any examples of where you've done this before?

I'm being overly-aggressive. It's nothing all that new for me, although I might be doing it more in this game than usual. Probably just because it's Fritzler's game and the page five lynch was inspiring.

[Sarcastro]

It's not aggressive at all because you're not going to get anything out of it, unless you think that I'm going to slip up and actually tell you. That's what makes it scummy.

I can't honestly figure out why a pro-town player would want someone to claim so early? How's that pro-town?

Make up your mind. Do I know that I'm not going to get anything out of it or don't I? You seems to alternate between assumptions as it suits you.

I don't expect to get a claim yet. I'd be really quite surprised if I did. And yes, it is being aggressive, because it's emphasising that you're scum and it's harrassing you into making a mistake like the one you did by voting for me for a bullshit reason.

How is it not pro-town? I never claimed it was a pro-town tell, I claimed it was a null tell. Don't put words into my mouth. And what if you had claimed? Well, I wouldn't have exactly been crushed. I plan to get you lynched anyway, which will inevitably result in a claim by you (or a foolish refusal to claim). I'm certain enough in my own judgment that I don't require you to be at lynch-1 to know that I want you dead.

You simply calling me scum didn't make it obvious. You left it vague so that someone else can swoop in and fill in an explanation for you. Either you couldn't come up with a strong case against me, you didn't want to put yourself out there for fear that someone would consider your analysis scummy (like Ibby did with me), or you're just lazy.

I'm going to go out on the limb and say that you didn't feel like putting your analysis out there because you didn't want people to start looking at you. Stating I'm scum without adding anything else is just enough to get people to look at me without having them look at you too. That too is scummy.

Sorry, the limb broke. You've now crashed into the ground.

If I didn't want people to look at me, why would I constantly post that I want you and Cephrir dead? Your assertions here are ridiculous, and it is incredibly obvious that you're desperately looking for reasons that I'm scummy. I'm not at all afraid of people paying attention to me. Hell, I want people to pay

more

attention to me, because I want them to lynch the two scum I've found.

To answer your original question, it's laziness combined with the fact that I don't feel the need to make a case. I felt it was obvious what I didn't like about your post, and I was ready to explain it to anyone who asked. I'm still ready to explain it, and I'm still sure that you're scum.

Seriously, guys, can we lynch Blight already? We've already given him way too much time to think of a fakeclaim.

[Sarcastro]

This works better if you actually respond to me, rather than making the same points over and over. Maybe you didn't get it clearly enough. I'll try to go point-by-point this time.

How is it a null-tell if it's clearly not pro-town? How is it being aggressive it you don't expect a claim? If you think I'm scum, obviously you know I'm not going to be pressured to claim at three votes. The only reason I could think someone would claim so early is if they were a newbish townie trying to prove you wrong. And that's why scum would push for a claim at 3 votes, not town.

Um, do you understand what "null tell" means? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't mean "pro-town". It means that it doesn't say anything about my alignment.

I have no idea what you think "aggressive" means, but I can assure you that harassing you to claim is certainly not passive.

So your thesis is that I'm trying to trick someone who I've assumed is a newbish townie into claiming (because I obviously care ever so much about your role) without any of the excellent players in this game noticing? Yeah, that definitely sounds like a solid scum strategy.

The reason I don't buy you being lazy is because you've spent more time defending yourself now then you did trying to build a case against me with your whole "I don't like how you're scum" arguement.

Or maybe I'm just more interested in defending myself while explaining to everyone what obvious scum you are. It's a little like a trap, actually. I coast along Fritzler-like until you pull off a bullshit attack, when I pop out of nowhere and devour you and your nonsense arguments alive.

And, no, your "why isn't Ceph dead yet" or "Please claim, Blightscum" arguements aren't exactly enough to put yourself out there. If you're unwilling to actually back up your "he's clearly scum" claim with anything more than "I thought it was obvious" then that shows a fear of actually putting yourself out there. And, from what I've seen, that is a scum tell.

Look, there's no way you're going to convince anyone I'm not putting myself out there. I've been constantly attention-seeking all game. I have absolutely no fear of putting myself out there. The fact that you selectively quote me saying that it was obvious and not all the specific points I've made against you says something, I think.

Hell, you weren't even willing to put a vote on me until others chose to. And that completely contradicts your whole "I'm being aggressive" statement.

Are you goddamn serious?

Did you somehow not notice that I was busy trying to get Cephrir lynched?

I considered Cephrir a better lynch until Ibby convinced me to lynch you instead! Is that really so hard to understand? Stop coming up with these crap reasons! It's incredibly clear that you've decided to vote for me first and thought up the reasons afterwards.

And even now you continue to push for a claim when I only have three votes even though you don't expect it to come. And, even though you don't expect me to claim, you think I should be lynched for not claiming. But, no, you're not really fishing for a role-claim.

Hey, guess what? You should

stop making shit up

! I think you should be lynched for not claiming?

Bullshit!

I never said anything of the sort. And it's not goddamn fishing! Do you seriously not understand that? Are you kidding me? Is this some sort of a joke?

It's not rolefishing!

It's a blatant demand that I know won't be fulfilled but that I wish to make on principle regardless, because it shows the extent of my certainty that you're scum. Holy fuck this is frustrating.

Shame on anyone who actually falls for the crap that Blight is spewing right now. I would bet anything on his being scum.

[Sarcastro]

I'm not sure you understand what a null-tell is. If it's clearly not pro-town, how could you honestly say it's a null-tell? What's the opposite of pro-town?

As Ibby explained (and I explained in the post you quoted - nice reading), a null tell is something that doesn't indicate alignment either way. Acting the way I normally do is a null tell, because it tells you nothing about my alignment. This shouldn't be all that hard to understand.

The only explanation you've made is that I'm "obviously scum". Hate to break it to you, but that's not an explanation. It's a statement with no real backing. You only just a couple posts ago said that my case against Theo was weak. Everything else is "You're obviously sum. Claim, please."

That's great, except that you have an incredibly selective memory. How about this:

So, yeah. You've blatantly mischaracterised me in an attempt to fabricate a reason to get your vote off of someone you now realise was not a good target at all and onto someone you think you can lynch more easily. Good luck with that.

Looks to me like that's an argument right there. You've simply ignored what you don't want to hear in an attempt to make me look like I have no case. Guess what, Blight: you haven't exactly made any great cases yet either. Your case against Theo and your case against me were both nonsense.

Maybe you and I saw different things. I saw you say Cephrir was a better lynch, wait to notice that no one else joined the Ceph wagon, and then you jumped on a fresh BW that you thought may pick up speed after Ibby and Glork voted me.

Cephrir had more votes!

Cephrir

still

has more votes! Why is this difficult to understand? I switched to you because I thought Ibby made a strong case against you and I decided you would be a better (and faster) lynch. I like that you're able to read my apparently insane mind. Seriously, do you think I'm an idiot? If I just wanted to get anyone lynched, I could have done it a lot more easily than like this. Even if I were scum, you could at least give me a little credit here.

Okay, what part did I make up? The part where you want to lynch me for not claiming fast enough or the part where you think I should be lynched for not claiming fast enough?

What are you talking about? When did I say that? I never said I wanted to lynch you for not claiming fast enough. Again, don't put words into my mouth. And why did you repeat basically the same thing phrased two slightly different ways?

You ask me to claim. You think I should be lynched because I'm not "thinking up a fakeclaim fast enough". But, yeah, you're not actually expecting something to come of it.

Yes, I demanded a claim. No, I never said anything even resembling your second assertion. Please stop twisting my words, or, if you honestly think that's what I said, please read more carefully.

I'll tell you this much, Sarc; you, especially, aren't going to like my claim.

Yeah, that's certainly not a scummy thing to say.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that I am very very sure that Blight is scum.

[Sarcastro]

Sarc and everyone, I see this as a scum tell, not null, because there is no reason for town to ask someone to claim who is not close to a lynch. All it could possibly do so soon is give scum a power role to NK. To me it seems that claiming should not be done, except as the last possible thing to prevent a power role's lynch.

Thanks. You're only a few hours late.

Oh yeah, and you

still

haven't given me a good reason I would do it as scum. Because I actually think Blight is going to claim? Because I'm desperate to get a claim from Blight specifically? Because I need the claim right away for my special daykilling roll? Why wouldn't I just wait until a bigger bandwagon builds up on Blight or someone else?

Seriously, people, think about

why

scum would do something before you vote someone for no reason. I demanded a claim because I'm being an overly-aggressive bastard, like Ibby said. It still says nothing about my alignment.

Also, I just re-read my posts and realised that I didn't actually even ask for a claim until Blight accused me of doing so. Blight's initial vote on me was simply an overreaction to me asking him why he hadn't claimed yet, which is even more obviously not a real attempt to get him to claim. Just thought that was worth pointing out.

[Sarcastro]

Yes. Someone claiming would, in fact, give me a power role to kill if I were scum. Now please explain why I would be interested in making

Blight specifically

claim

as soon as possible

while he

doesn't even have enough votes to justify a claim

. And also why the best method for accomplishing this would be flat-out asking him to claim.

Yeah, I thought so.

[Sarcastro]

So in other words, you have no idea how to answer my perfectly valid questions, so you're just going to say that you don't know what was going through my head, so you'll assume that it was something scummy. No, Yagami, if you can't decide why scum would do something, maybe that means it's not a scumtell!

Look, I'm not going to hold it against you if you just admit that you jumped to conclusions. I've been wrong about people many times because I thought it was scummy that they called something a scumtell without actually having a reason for scum to do it, so I realise now that it's not really scummy; it's just a mistake. Please don't stick to your mistake if you realise that it's a mistake, which I'm really hoping you do.

[Sarcastro]

Sarc, you completely misunderstood my last post, though rereading it I don't see it possible for it to be understood correctly. I have no idea how to word what I was trying to say, but I am going to try and word it better.
For my first point, I was saying of course your going to choose him to ask. It would have made no sense for you to be voting him, and then turn around and ask me to claim.
My second point was that you asked me why you did what I see as a scum tell in the first place. In which my point is that I see no pro-town reason to do so, only scummy. Also that, in this game, you only

truly

know a few things, and you have to use these to find the scum. I went on with this point to say try and say that there is no way to really know for sure what a player was thinking when he does something scummy, while he lives. Should you lynch him and he comes up scum, it is most likely the reasons stated by the town, and if he comes up town, they were probably the reasons he stated.

Okay, I guess I see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't really answer my question.

Why didn't I ask Cephrir to claim, Yagami? If I just wanted anyone to claim, Cephrir seems like he would have been a better choice.

It's not about pro-town or scummy, Yagami. I don't think that my claim talk was pro-town, but that doesn't mean that it's scummy. If you can't explain to me why I'd do it as scum (either consciously or unconsciously), then how can you just assert that it's scummy? I realise that it

seems instinctively scummy

, but if you can't give a logical reason for it to be scummy, you can't just decide that it is.

Also, is that last sentence advocating a Blight lynch? Because that would definitely be a good idea and a better use for your vote.

[Sarcastro]

So your contention is now that I came up with and decided to execute this plan at some random point during the day, after I'd already switched my vote to Blight?

Yagami, this keeps getting more and more ridiculous. Even if I accept your reasoning for why I picked Blight, that still doesn't explain why I couldn't have just waited for some more people to vote for him.

Are you sure you don't want to just reconsider your whole thought process here? This seems like a clear case of picking a conclusion and then trying to justify it.

[Sarcastro]

You wouldn't wait for more people, because then it would be more productive for scum to attempt to get him lynched then to get him to claim and decide if he was worth a NK.

And that doesn't seem at all tenuous to you? If this is such a good strategy, why don't more people do it? Why have I never done it before? Why would I go through all that effort for such a tiny reward? Come on, Yagami. Think about this for a minute.

And yeah, MoS, I don't really blame you. You could help shorten it by voting for Blight, though.

[Sarcastro]

What do you mean why don't people do it? It is done, scum role fish to find power roles.

Yes, they do. The only problem is that

I wasn't rolefishing

.

Just for the record, I never rolefish as scum (or town, obviously). My personal philosophy for playing scum is to always act as much like I would as town as is possible (with obvious exceptions, such as hammering townies in LyLo). I defy you to find a single example of me rolefishing. Yes, I know, it's not really proof of anything, but I figured I should tell you all the same.

First off, that was after your vote on me, which actually shows that

you're

the one that voted for me and are coming up with reasons afterwards.

Oh, I didn't realise that I wasn't allowed to point out that you're scum after voting for you. There's a difference between adding more reasons that someone you're voting is scummy and inventing justifications for a previous vote. I'm doing the former; you're doing the latter.

Second off, the whole post seemed more like you defending yourself than creating an arguement against me. Actually, the majority of your more thought out posts seem to be when you're defending yourself rather than building a case against someone else.

No, really? I seemed like I was defending myself? Maybe that's because I

was

. But part of my defense includes pointing out that all of your attacks are self-serving nonsense.

Thirdly, when did I mischaracterize you? You

were

fishing for a claim. Whether you call it "role-fishing" or "blatantly demanding a claim" doesn't matter. You wanted me to claim. You never made it clear why I was scum, and you even admitted that. And you have been jumping on any and every BW. So, I ask again, how did I mischaracterize you?

Okay, I'm not going over this again, because you're just being wilfully stupid at this point. I've explained what I was doing multiple times, and you're just ignoring me. Go read my posts. If you don't believe me, fine, but don't act like I haven't addressed this multiple times.

Sigh, let me quote it again.

Seriously, guys, can we lynch Blight already? We've already given him way too much time to think of a fakeclaim.

And again.

Seriously, guys, can we lynch Blight already? We've already given him way too much time to think of a fakeclaim.

And again, in case you missed it the last couple times.

Seriously, guys, can we lynch Blight already? We've already given him way too much time to think of a fakeclaim.

How am I putting words in your mouth, again?

Oh sweet zombie Jesus, there are so many sarcastic barbs that come to mind. How about this: you're putting words in my mouth

by interpreting the sentence in an absolutely retarded way

. At this point, I'm pretty sure you just have poor reading comprehension, so obviously this doesn't make you scummier.

Let me try to explain what I meant. Actually, that's difficult, because I don't think I can simplify it any more. How about this: "Blight is scum. Therefore, we should lynch him. In fact, we should lynch him quickly. In addition, because he is scum, he will need to think of a fakeclaim. If we had lynched him faster, he would not have had as much time to think of a fakeclaim. At this point, because he has already had a large amount of time to think of a fakeclaim, we should simply try to lynch him as fast as possible to try to prevent him from having any more time to think of one."

Is that sufficiently simplified for you? Now can you please explain how in the hell you managed to get "[Blight] should be lynched because [he's] not thinking up a fakeclaim fast enough" from that?

I've already given you reasons why it's scummy and not pro-town. Truth is, we don't know why you'd want me to claim so early. It's just a big WIFOM arguement waiting to happen. But, I just don't see any reason for a pro-town player to want someone to claim so early.

And, yeah, you asked me why I haven't claimed yet. Now you're just getting nit-picky. The phrase still implies that you want me to claim, and you've even said that you "demanded that I claim". I know you're going to say that I'm putting words in your mouth again, so I'll save you the time and just bring up this quote now.

No, actually, you haven't explained why it's scummy, whereas I think I've given a pretty persuasive argument for it being a null tell. Neither you nor Yagami have given any sort of logical reason for why, as scum, I would perpetrate this insane plan you two have dreamed up for me.

And no, Blight, I wouldn't say that you're putting words in my mouth when you actually quote things I said. See, because those are my words. You're obviously capable of quoting me, you just need to learn that when you make up the quotes, you can't attribute them to me.

Seriously, Blight, you lose. Your attacks are pure nonsense. Apparently quoting me and repeating the same bullshit I've already torn apart is an effective strategy in your mind, but I strongly doubt that many people here feel the same way.

Why is Blight not dead yet, guys?

[Sarcastro]

Role fishing is trying to find out someone else's role. You wanted him to claim, and thus know his role. Thus, you were role fishing.

No, it's not. It's really really really not. Please stop saying it is, because it's not.

Actually, no, let's say it is. Asking for a claim is now rolefishing. Well guess what?

By that definition, rolefishing is no longer scummy!

You cannot change the meaning of something and then assert things about the new meaning based solely on observations about the old meaning. That's like asserting that computers are alive because "computer" used to refer to a person who computed things.

You're clearly just arguing this bizarre definition because you can't think of a real reason for why my behaviour is scummy.

You're smarter than this, Yagami. If there's no reason for scum to be more likely to do something than town,

it's not a scumtell

.

[Sarcastro]

Hey, MoS, how about you show your support by helping me lynch Blight?

[Sarcastro]

So what, you've given up? Because all I see is you insulting me and making blatantly false statements. I'm sick of all this quoting, so I'm going to try to keep this short and concise.

You have not adequately explained why my talk of claims was scummy. Don't assert that you have unless you can show me a quote of you answering the same questions I asked to Yagami. Do not try to redefine the questions unless you give a reason for why mine are unfair.

LMAO. You can be "sarcastic" all you want. The meaning of that post was clear. It's as clear as "why hasn't Blight claimed yet". Unfortunately, somehow to you it's open to interpretations.

...

LMAO. Please show me one time when I made up any of your quotes. You can't go back to saying those weren't your words because they

were

.

What's wrong with you? Are you saying that you're more qualified to say what I meant by "Seriously, guys, can we lynch Blight already? We've already given him way too much time to think of a fakeclaim"? Are you saying that I originally meant it the way you're saying and am now lying about what it means? Your interpretation of it is absolutely nonsensical, and now you're just stubbornly refusing to face fact. No, it is not open to interpretation. It means exactly what I said it means.

You misquoted me as saying "[Blight] should be lynched because [he's] not thinking up a fakeclaim fast enough". That is pretty clearly a case of putting words in my mouth. Do you think you can just say "LMAO" and "LOL" enough times and it'll go away?

Not only are you being scummy, you've now moved into "blatantly and intentionally obnoxious". Your attacks on me are pure bullshit. You better have a bloody good claim, because I'd consider lynching you as a confirmed innocent right now.

Please die.

[Sarcastro]

No, I also said it was a null tell, which it is.

[Sarcastro]

Yes, Yagami, that's pretty much my reason, though that's not the entire thing - all the questions I asked you about how you could consider it a scumtell are part of it. Saying it's a scumtell requires an unreasonable amount of assumptions and pretty much requires me to have no idea what I'm doing, which I assure you is not the case. I suppose you could say it's a town tell, but I don't think there's really any evidence for that, either, and I'm certainly not making that claim.

Unless someone answers all my questions in explaining why I would do that as scum, it remains a null tell.

I really wish we could get over all of this and just lynch Blight. This game is way more fun when I get to post one- or two-sentence posts demanding lynches.

[Sarcastro]

Sarc, why did you do something that you figured would be a null tell, instead of something you figured would be a town tell?

What? That makes no sense, Skruffs. People do tons of things that are null tells. In fact 99% of everything people do during mafia games are null tells. You can't possibly suggest that I should only ever do things that are town tells (besides, if I could do things that are town tells at will, why wouldn't I do them as scum, thereby destroying their status as town tells?).

[(Incidentally, I'll note that Sarc has ignored my post altogether.)

That's because I thought you were kidding. How on earth would I

know

when originally mentioning Blight claiming that it would later turn into some giant overblown issue? If I could see the future, Glork, I'd come up with better strategies than that.

Here's a question for everyone not voting for Blight: why the hell aren't you doing so? He's practically confessed to being scum.

[Sarcastro]

If you're pro-town, you can prove it by helping me lynch Blight.

[Sarcastro]

I liked Glork more when he was bussing Blight.

[Sarcastro]

Like I said... using it to skirt real contributions.

Yeah, because you've just been a goddamn bastion of contribution, right?

Why don't you start off by explaining why you decided to move your vote off of guaranteed scum onto the obviously pro-town player who caught him?

[Sarcastro]

No, it was an admission that I'd gone too far and started almost-randomly accusing people of being scum. I'm not proud of how I started off day two. Notice, however, that true to my word, I re-evaluated what I was doing and

caught two scum

.

Yeah, Glork, I'm definitely an SK. Because, you know, only SKs can be super-aggressive.

Why don't you come up with a real reason for changing your vote?

[Sarcastro]

I indirectly answered it by telling him to lynch Blight. I don't really care about Skruffs or MoS right now. Neither of them seems particularly scummy. Skruffs certainly hasn't convinced me that MoS is scum, if that's what you're asking.

[Sarcastro]

That last post was directed at Ibby, obviously.

[Sarcastro]

Compared to 95% of the game, yes. I have been a goddamned bastion of contribution. Filter through my posts (Fritz even provided those handy links at the start of the game) and compare me to, say.... BMQ, Xyzzy, Rogueben, Karmadog, PJ, CTD, Avalon, Theo, Flameaxe, Cephrir/Blight/Yagami up until the last few days.... and, well, you get the picture.

Yes, I do. You've contributed more than a bunch of people who

aren't me

. Thanks for playing.

Hey, Glork, let's look back at some of your suspicions. You voted for Blight based on Ibby's reasoning without adding anything of your own. You voted Skruffs based on a misunderstanding (but even then, it was a complete overreaction). You say you have a bad feeling about MoS for no particular reason. And then you vote for me based on some incredibly weak reasoning. And now you're suddenly going on about my non-contribution

after

I start contributing more than any other person in the game. Sounds more like

you're

the one trying to disguise non-contribution.

Your assertion that I'm trying to use this argument to somehow skirt real contribution (by giving real contribution? Not sure how that works) is absolutely ridiculous and

not

something I would ever do. I have a well-documented history of getting into these big sorts of arguments. Short and Sweet and Too Much Scum are two examples off the top of my head, one as scum and one as town. That's because I react the same way to a lot of things regardless of my alignment. I become frustrated easily. This is not even part of a playstyle, this is part of my

personality

. I do this everywhere, and you trying to assert that I'm like some awful mix of MBLScum and GlorkScum for it is ridiculous. I'm Sarc for it. Not SarcTown, not SarcScum, just Sarc.

I'm trying to decide if you really are acting scummy or if I just think that because I'm pissed at you for playing stupidly. This is not what I expect from you, Glork.

[Sarcastro]

Blight, you're still refusing to address the questions I asked Yagami. Do you need me to go back and quote them for you? You keep saying that it looks scummy and that it makes sense for scum to want a claim, but you don't actually address the specifics of why I would do it as scum. You keep saying you do, but you don't. Saying that it creates a "WiFoM" argument is pointless, because the correct conclusion in that case is that it can't be used as either a scum or a town tell, which is what I'm saying.

You don't even have to answer my questions, Blight, but you do have to stop pretending that they don't exist. If you want to argue that the questions are unfair, do so. But address them somehow.

Right now you're just insisting that it's scummy because scum would theoretically want a claim. Yes, I agree that scum would theoretically want a claim. You have to address why I would choose to go about it in that extraordinarily ineffective manner, though. The burden of proof is on you, Blight, and you haven't done anything but assert things without solid reasoning.

[Sarcastro]

I'm not asking you to read my mind, Blight, I'm asking you to give me a

plausible scenario

that answers those question. You haven't done that yet.

Where the hell is everyone else? Stop lurking, you guys. Get out here and post.

[Sarcastro]

Maybe you just thought that I'd be any easier nut to crack than Cephrir. Maybe you saw the BW for Ceph slow down while there was suddenly more pressure against me. Maybe there was no reason at all and you just blurted it out, hoping I'd let it slide or just claim like a new guy should.

Three scenarios.

For the last goddamn time,

that doesn't answer all the questions

. Do you seriously need me to explain it all again?

[Sarcastro]

That was not the only question, Blight. Tell me - are you capable of using that handy fuction that allows you to go to previous pages and read past posts? Because you're certainly not acting like it. If you are seriously incapable of finding the questions, just tell me and I'll quote them for you.

Seriously, does nobody else find this ridiculous? Blight has decided that a single random comment was scummy (obviously based more on OMGUS and looking for an easy target than anything) and is now proposing farfetched theories to explain why it's scummy. Come on, people, can you not see what's right in front of you?

Blight is scum. I guarantee it.

[Sarcastro]

Yes. Someone claiming would, in fact, give me a power role to kill if I were scum. Now please explain why I would be interested in making

Blight specifically

claim

as soon as possible

while he

doesn't even have enough votes to justify a claim

. And also why the best method for accomplishing this would be flat-out asking him to claim.

Yeah, I thought so.

This would be a good place to start, Blight.

I've explained perfectly well what I was doing. I'm sorry that you just can't accept my explanation, but insisting that my actions are scummy but that it doesn't matter why I did them - that's patently ridiculous, Blight. How can my actions be scummy if

I didn't do them for a scummy reason

?

You're desperate to make me out to be scummy. I suppose I can't really blame you. But you're scum and you need to die.

By the way, every other player in this town (except Ibby) should be shot. Why the hell aren't you voting for Blight?

He's goddamn scum!

It's so incredibly obvious.

Even if you're not going to vote for Blight, at least fucking weigh in. This is pathetic. It's just me arguing with Blight, with an occassional random comment from other people. Come the fuck on. I'm getting fed up with this useless town. Am I the only one trying to goddamn win this game for the town?

[Sarcastro]

Blight, your logic is ridiculous. You're comparing my actions to drowning a kid in a bathtub? Here's the big difference: murder is illegal for reasons that aren't defined by motivation. Unless it's self-defence, it doesn't matter why you murder someone, it is illegal.

The analogy does not hold in a game of mafia. A scumtell is scummy

based entirely on motivation

. Something cannot be scummy in and of itself, removed from all motivation.

Here's a better analogy. Is using the "rolleyes" emoticon scummy? For the record, some people actually say it is, but that's not important right now (and I don't really believe that anyway). Now, if I just declare it scummy, that's not fair, right? I need to explain

why

it's scummy - why a scum player is more likely to use it than a town player. But according your your analogy, it is enough just to

declare

that it is scummy - if you ask me why, I can just say "well, I don't know your motivation for doing it, but I don't believe you when you say that you didn't do it for a scummy reason, so it's scummy anyway".

Does this make sense to you, Blight? The only difference here is that what I did seems more instinctively scummy. I realise this. But that doesn't mean it

is

. It is

your

responsibility to explain why I might have done it, and you have not done that satisfactorally. You clearly don't have a good explanation, because every time I ask, you simply dodge the question and insist that it simply

is

scummy for no particular reason. You then give false analogies comparing me to a murderer.

I'm happy to see that people are actually weighing in on this, and I'm especially happy to see that the majority realise that I'm right.

[Sarcastro]

And, no, man. My job isn't to justify your actions when I think your actions are scummy.

No, your job is to

explain why my actions are scummy

. You

haven't done this

, Blight. You just keep coming up with bullshit excuses not to argue your point.

And yeah, I have explained why you're scum. But to be honest, I don't really care if you choose to ignore my arguments against you, since I doubt I'm going to be able to persuade you to vote for yourself.

PJ - please help me lynch Blightscum. I promise that we can lynch Cephrirscum tomorrow.

Also, either there are some weird mechanics at work here, or that most recent votecount is incredibly wrong.

[Sarcastro]

Well yeah, PJ, but you're obviously wrong about Blight. So you should listen to me and help him die.

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, except that your "explanations" consist of unrealistic scenarios in which I act like an idiot for no reason. I'm sorry if that's your opinion of me, Blight, but it's most definitely incorrect.

Explain why it is scummy, and, in doing so, answer satisfactorally all of my questions about why, as scum, I would do what you're accusing me of doing.

Stop dodging the question and throwing out meaningless pseudo-answers. That's all you've done so far.

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, Blight, I certainly couldn't have seen that coming when I pre-empted you by saying that you're definitely incorrect if you think that.

I like that you continue to avoid actually answering anything.

How can anyone actually doubt at this point that Blight is scum? It's mind-boggling to me that anyone could imagine him to be pro-town.

[Sarcastro]

Oh, you mean the part where you claimed to answer them but didn't? Yeah, I enjoyed that part too.

I'm getting sick of this game. Call me when you guys come to your senses and lynch Blight.

[Sarcastro]

Flameaxe needs to stop lurking. Your claim does not excuse you from contributing. We know you're there.

[Sarcastro]

Yet another solid case against me...

Yet another totally worthless post that completely avoids actually making a case. The difference between us, Blight, is that I made a case in the past, whereas you've only made excuses.

Glork - I wish I could, but I'm not the type to allow Blight to spread his lies without repercussion. The rest of the town doesn't really seem willing to pick up the slack.

Please go back to voting for the scum, by the way.

[Sarcastro]

Oh. You used an acronym to denote that you are laughing at me. Touché, Blight, touché. How will I ever recover from that vicious barb?

Maybe I really should just ignore you. If you're not going to make a case against me, this will continue to be a meaningless exchange in which I ask you to say something meaningful and you say something stupid in response. So here it is: your last chance. Make a case that answers my questions or shut up.

[Sarcastro]

So now that Blight has confessed, could we please lynch him and end this torturous day?

[Sarcastro]

Please make up your mind, Ibby. It's obvious that both Cephrir and Blight are scum; we just need to focus on lynching one of them today and the other tomorrow. Switching between bandwagons will only slow the game down further.

[Sarcastro]

Yagami, you're missing the point. All I'm asking you to do is speculate - I'm just saying that the speculation should be plausible. You should be saying "What Sarc did is scummy because I believe he did it for this reason", not "I don't know why Sarc did that, but it's scummy". Of course I'm not asking you to tell me why I did something - I know why I do what I do (normally, at least) and in this case, I've told you why. Now, you and Blight chose not to believe it, which is your choice, but both of you immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was scummy

without explaining why satisfactorally

.

Blight has made it clear that he has no interest in actually giving any reason - only in making me look bad with vague assertions about how everything I do is scummy - so I've stopped bothering to ask. If you'd like to give some real reasoning, I encourage you to go ahead. In fact, I expect it of you a little more than of Blight, since he's scum and you're probably not.

[Sarcastro]

Yagami, you never answered my questions, though. Why, if I'm scum, would I do it that way? Flat-out asking for a claim out of nowhere on a random player does not seem to me like a scum strategy with a very high probability of success. You're looking at this in the simplest possible terms, which is ridiculous. You cannot simply say that it would theoretically help the scum and so is therefore scummy, disregarding the fact that my behaviour at the time makes it much more likely that I was simply being overly-aggressive than carrying out some incredibly random and moronic plan.

[Sarcastro]

I'm not saying town would never ask for a claim, it could be good play, done at the right times. There is no reason for town to ask for a claim from someone with so many more needed to lynch. When someone is under heavy suspicion then yes, but Blight was not at the time. There were 3 votes on him with 11 to lynch. At -1, -2, maybe even -3 sure, but he needed 8 more votes to be lynched. Only three people.

The problem, Yagami, is that you're only looking at reasons why someone would specifically do it because they're town and specifically because they're scum. Yes, you're probably technically right about scum having more of a reason to do it than town. But it's something like a 1% chance of someone doing it

because

they're town and maybe a 5% chance (I'm being generous here) of someone doing it

because

they're scum. That leaves a 94% chance that the person does it for reasons independent of being either town of scum, like, say, they're playing really really aggressively. In this case, it's quite a stretch to call it a scumtell, because the vast majority of the time it's a null tell.

You don't have to agree with the math here, just understand the concept. You're completely ignoring the fact that very unusual play is usually not a great way to determine someone's alignment. I don't know why you're so desperate to cling to this claim idea when there are plenty of other, far better reasons to find people suspicious. You can probably even find better reasons to find

me

suspicious if you're so set on that. But seriously, this irrational faith that one ridiculous comment I made is a scumtell is, well, ridiculous in itself.

Oh, and you

still

haven't addressed the question of

why on earth any non-retarded scum would think that the outrageous plan you and Blight have concocted for me would work

.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. You're smarter than this, Yagami.

[Sarcastro]

1. No, Yagami, they do have to add up to 100%, because I'm speaking about any time someone does what I did. So in 100 occurences (in my example), 1 would be for a town reason, 5 would be for a scum reason, and 94 would be for a non-alignment-based reason.

2. You think that it's far more likely to be done by scum than by aggressive town because scum have a

reason

? Yes, Yagami, an incredibly insane reason. And Yagami, ask yourself how many of your actions in a game of mafia are made for a specific alignment-based reason. Don't give me bullshit about acting pro-town when you're pro-town, because any even semi-competent player will at least

try

to act pro-town (for the most part) as scum.

3. That doesn't answer the question at all, and, in fact, doesn't even make sense. I have a hard time even understanding what you're trying to say, but once again, this bullshit argument that you and Blight are trying to use about "not being able to read my mind" is a complete dodging of the question.

You have not goddamn explained why I would do it as scum.

End of fucking story. I have explained why I didn't. You apparently chose not to believe me.

But you still have to explain why I would plausibly do it as scum.

Do you seriously not get this concept, Yagami? I've explained it several times in the simplest of terms, and yet you keep repeating the same retarded bullshit argument. Sit down and

think

. You need to explain why I would plausibly do it as scum. Explain it. Don't say "it's scummy" and "ask yourself why you did it". Those are not explanations, let alone plausible ones. Answer the fucking questions. Answer them. This is not hard to understand. Seriously. Even just acknowledge that you know what I'm asking. Please. Anything. This is so goddamn frustrating right now. It's like I'm explaining something to someone with anterograde amnesia. I've said this so many times, and yet you have yet to even acknowledge that you understand what I'm asking.

Sweet zombie Jesus this is painful. This game is becoming a chore. Can we please fucking kill Blight already?

[Sarcastro]

Tell me, Sarc.... Since when has "I'm doing something so silly/blatant as scum that there's no way I can be scum" ever been a valid defense to you?

Don't mischaracterise what I'm saying, Glork. I'm not claiming that it's so silly/blatant that I can't be scum, I'm claiming it's so silly/blatant that the degree to which it is a scumtell is overpowered by the degree to which it is simply an indication of the way I'm playing.

As for your Space Monkey example, yes, I see the parallels, but it's not a great argument. First of all, I think what you did in Space Monkey had a much higher chance of success and a much greater reward than what I supposedly did here. However, my main problem with this argument is that the fact that you were scum and that it theoretically benefitted you as scum does not really say all that much. The real question is how much more likely you would be to do that as scum than as town. The very fact that you thought you could easily explain your actions away demonstrates to me that it's not implausible that you would do the same thing as town. More generally, this relates to why I'm not a huge fan of "conscious" scumtells, that is those that are supposedly made because the scum are consciously trying to do something scummy to manipulate the town.

Question:

Why would you do this plausibly as scum?

Answer:

Because you could get the role of a player, and you thought you could get away with it.

Okay, good, so you know what I'm getting at.

You still haven't answered the question, though. I thought I'd already debunked this simplistic explanation you and Blight are using. You answered the question "Why might I theoretically do this as scum?" not "Why would I plausibly do this as scum?". The difference is those questions I asked about why specifically I would do what I did. Why would I target Blight rather than, say, Cephrir? Why would I do it now and not earlier? I don't remember all of them, but they're all there. They're the questions that tell you why it's ridiculous that I would do this to get a claim out of Blight. It just makes no sense. It's not something I would ever do deliberately.

I'd like to emphasise once again that I'm not saying that this proves in any way that I'm pro-town. I'm saying that there is no plausible way of determining my alignment from it. It would be like trying to determine my alignment based on the average number of words in my posts. Sure, maybe you could get some indication, but it would be extraordinarily more likely to have been by chance (or some other factor).

[Sarcastro]

I applaud you for actually going back and doing what I asked, Yagami (unlike some people). You actually did a good job of it, too, except for a few critical things.

First of all, you still assign way too much value to getting one player to claim. I realise that it would theoretically help the scum, but why would I risk so much to get one from any one random player? Your answers to my question on this topic are unsatisfying to me.

All your answers about why I would ask Blight for a claim at a low number of votes, why I would choose him rather than Cephrir, etc, completely ignore the fact that people don't generally go around lynching claimed power roles early in the game - at least not the ones that scum would be most eager to nightkill. Why would I be eager to get a claim from Blight when he's at three votes when I could just wait for him to get to eight or nine? If he gets to eight or nine and claims, say, cop, there's no way he's going to be lynched, so I'll have the opportunity to kill him. Even if he

is

lynched, then I would still be rid of the cop just as effectively

and

I would get a nightkill on whomever I want, rather than the a town-controlled lynch that could hit me or my scumbuddies. On the other hand, let's say I do ask Blight for a claim at three votes and he actually gives it to me (again, let's say he's a cop). Well, first of all, I've just drawn a hell of a lot of attention to myself for outing the cop. Yes, perhaps I'm confident I can get myself out of it, but it's still a risk. Again, the cop won't be lynched, and someone else will. Now there's a greater chance that that someone else will be me, but even if we disregard that, I'm still in the same position as when Blight claims at a higher number of votes. Even if I get out of it, I've now hindered my ability to ask for claims in the future by drawing attention to myself for no good reason.

So, Yagami, would you care to explain again why I'd want Blight to claim at three votes?

Oh, and Glork, stop being scum please.

[Sarcastro]

Of course you asked one player, it's either that or asking for a mass claim, which is extremely doubtful for anyone to do at this point in the game. The more you ask to claim, the more likely people will get on you. You would risk it because you could get the role. The more power roles gone the better chances the scum have.

The point is not how many players I ask, Yagami, it's that getting one player to claim is not a big deal, and is so not worth the amount of risk you seem to think it's worth.

You asked him to claim early, because of something you mentioned in that post. Like I said, the more votes they have, the more likely to lynch them. Like you said (emphasized) the town lynch could hit anyone, so if you hit him early, Ceph would still be there for the town to lynch, and there wasn't much discussion for people to see someone new scummy instead. Where as done later, you or a scumbuddy may have made posts during this enough to be second on everyone's lists. This is assuming no one pointed at you for it. Should it have gone through, I doubt a whole lot of suspicion would be on you. There would be some for outing the cop, but the majority of people will be angry at you for that, not so much for asking for he claim, as those people would have gone after you prior to the claim like I did.

You've completely dodged the main point of what I was saying - that I'm not better off with Blight claiming earlier. I'm worse off, or at best, exactly the same. Let me break it down in case I wasn't clear before.

Scenario 1: I ask Blight to claim early, Blight does so, someone else is lynched.
Result: Someone else is lynched. I can kill Blight (if he has a power role) that night. Probably increased suspicion on me.

Scenario 2: I ask Blight to claim early, Blight does so, Blight is lynched.
Result: Blight is lynched. I can kill whomever I want (better than town-controlled lynch) that night. Probably increased suspicion on me.

Scenario 3: Blight gets run up and someone asks him to claim, Blight does so, someone else is lynched.
Result: Someone else is lynched. I can kill Blight (if he has a power role) that night. No extra suspicion on me.

Scenario 4: Blight gets run up and someone asks him to claim, Blight does so, Blight is lynched.
Result: Blight is lynched. I can kill whomever I want (better than town-controlled lynch) that night. No extra suspicion on me.

Scenario 3 is better for me than is Scenario 1, and Scenario 4 is better than Scenario 2. Obviously the optimal play if these are the only scenarios is to wait until Blight is run up before getting him to claim.

Now, of course, I'll admit that these are not the only scenarios. The scenario that actually played out (Blight not claiming) does not fall under any of these, and Blight's role could potentially change them as well. Because I'm still not entirely clear how my mind works in your hypothesis, I'm not sure which scenarios I supposedly would have been taking into account. But can you show me a realistic scenario in which asking Blight to claim at three votes is better for me than asking him to claim at nine?

[Sarcastro]

So, Yagami, the main difference in your mind is that if I could get Blight to claim early, I would have a better chance of lynching Cephrir rather than possibly having myself or one of my scumbuddies lynched? Does that really seem logical to you?

I mean, yes, I suppose I might have a marginally better chance at lynching Cephrir that way, but is that worth it? I'd imagine that he'd still be a viable target even if some of the votes moved off of him and onto Blight. Even if not, there's still a higher likelihood of a player other than one of my scumbuddies being lynched. And that's even assuming that that's something I'd think about in advance (which I assure you based on my philosophy for playing scum, it is not, but I suppose I can't expect you to just take my word for it). You're basically arguing that I'm drawing attention to myself with a ploy with a very low chance of success simply so that I can slightly increase the odds that someone besides a scumbuddy of mine is lynched today? I'm sorry, Yagami, but that seems like a huge stretch to me.

Also, I'd like to point out that the increased suspicion I mentioned as a result of Scenario 1 is because I would have just outed a power role, not because that power role was nightkilled.

You know what would make people less disinterested? Lynching Blight.

[Sarcastro]

I don't understand what you mean, Yagami. As far as I can tell, you just restated the original (weak) point that it would be easier to lynch Cephrir if Blight claimed earlier.

In the case of him getting more votes, it is easier to lynch Blight, and NK someone else you want, were if you got him to claim later, and everyone decides to not lynch him, then town will go after someone else, not necessarily someone you would want lynched and possibly a scum buddy then NK.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that Scenario 4 is worse than Scenario 1? Because Scenario 4 is ideal, while Scenario 1 is the least beneficial (of those four, at least). Or are you trying to say that if Blight claims early, there's a greater chance of him being lynched? If that's your argument, you're going to have to explain it better, and also explain why it doesn't match with your previous arguments.

And I never said that I was trying to draw attention to myself. But obviously outing a power role for no good reason

would

draw attention to me, whether I want it or not. Unless you think that I wasn't thinking about that when I did it, which is much more plausible if it was just me being overly-aggressive (as actually happened) than if it was a conscious effort by me to out a power role.

Also, I like how all the scum (and most of the town) are just sitting back doing nothing right now. The fact that Yagami and I are starring in the main conversation right now does not somehow prohibit others from weighing in.

[Sarcastro]

All right, Yagami. If I've at least convinced you enough for you to take your vote off of me, that's good enough. May I suggest that you take an extra-close look at Blight and Cephrir on your re-read?

CKD, I wasn't referring to anyone specific with that quote - I was commenting on the fact that aside from me and Yagami, nobody was saying much of anything. Since I'm not scum and I do not believe Yagami to be scum, that means that all of the scum were necessarily doing nothing. Hence the "(and most of the town)" comment.

For the record, I currently believe Blight and Cephrir to be scum. I'm also rather suspicious of Glork. Upon review, you're not looking too great either. Conversely, Ibby and Yagami are looking pro-town. Anything else?

[Sarcastro]

I don't understand what you're getting at, Skruffs. You seem to be taking the theoretical discussion of how what I did would benefit me or not

if I were scum

out of context.

I'm not sure if you're literally asking me if I had a "back-up plan" when I insinuated that Blight should claim (obviously not, since I didn't even have a plan, I was just calling him scum) or if you're asking a theoretical question about if I would have had a back-up plan had I been scum (in which case you need to clarify the question more, because I'm not sure what you're getting at).

All this stuff about me expecting Blight to fake a claim is irrelevant to the theoretical scenarios about if I were scum, because obviously if I'm scum, Blight isn't (unless he's from another scumgroup, a possibility we didn't address because I don't think it's important).

So could you please clarify what you're asking?

Oh, and why'd you take your vote off of Blight (and not re-apply it, either)?

[Sarcastro]

For the record, I currently believe Blight and Cephrir to be scum. I'm also rather suspicious of Glork. Upon review, you're not looking too great either. Conversely, Ibby and Yagami are looking pro-town. Anything else?

Do go into more detail.

You first. Don’t interrogate other people about their opinions until you have some of your own.

Saying that he will be fake claiming before he even claims is an attempt to discredit the claim himself.
You specifically said you could weasel out of it if your plan backfired. How were you intending to do that?

No, it’s an attempt to call him scum. “He will fakeclaim” is just another way of saying “he is scum”.

And you still haven’t clarified if we’re talking about the theoretical scenario in which I am mafia and have a Devious Dastardly Plan or my actual actions, which were motivated by no such thing.

Glork, why do you feel that Sarc is more likely an SK scumbag than another sort of scumbag?

Probably because I’m not mentioned in his role PM.

I'm also trying to figure out wtf Sarc -is- doing. Regardless of his arguments about why what he has done being 'null' and asking 'Why would scum do this?', I wonder exactly what he has done that is pro-town behavior. I certainly don't think that the wall to wall text arguments in the last few pages have been helpful. And I think that it's possible he's derailing us from finding scum. I'm also bothered by the way he has attached himself to me and other 'experienced' players like Glork (until Glork voted for him) and PJ in his arguments. The latest thing is that he said that no one is contributing anything else, despite the fact that he's been a big part of why. Plus, I did try to help us move on, but other than Blight responding to me, things just degenerated back to the same old argument that is going no where.

FoS: Sarc

Et tu, Ibbus?

I’ve caught two scum so far (admittedly not on my own, but still). Sounds good enough to me. And I’m sorry about all the text, but I think my play earlier in the game demonstrates that I would have preferred to avoid them. Unfortunately for the scum, I’m not the sort of player who will back down when someone confronts me with bullshit arguments the way Blight did. If I’m derailing anybody from finding scum, it’s certainly not intentional. Besides, we don’t need to find scum today, since we already have Blight to lynch. We’ll only even have to find scum tomorrow if Cephrir is vigged or something.

I’m not attaching myself to anyone. However, if somebody makes a good argument, I don’t see what’s wrong with following them to a certain extent. I bought PJ’s logic for the Jordan wagon, as did a lot of people. You did convince me to switch from Cephrir to Blight, but I had already concluded that Blight was scum. As for attaching myself Glork, I’m not sure what you mean. I did like that he voted for Blight, but he didn’t even give much of a reason for doing so, so I don’t think that really counts. Besides that, we’ve been at odds for most of the game, and I still don’t have a very good feeling about him.

I’m not trying to hurt discussion, but considering that we already have two scum caught, I don’t see why we even need it. Less talking, more lynching, please.

Admittedly, I haven't read much of the recent Sarc-Blight/Yagami arguments, so if this is a repeat question or something Sarc has already covered, I apologize in advance. Questions for Sarc:

What reason(s) would you plausibly behave the way you did if you are protown?
Why do the aforementinoed reason(s) outweigh the disadvantages or risks of behaving the way you did?

I was being overly-aggressive, Glork. That’s pretty much it. I’m not claiming it was a pro-town thing to do, I’m just saying that it was based on playstyle, not on alignment, and so it’s not a scumtell.

I wasn’t really thinking about the risks at the time. If I’d known that one simple comment that was only ever meant to imply in a new way that Blight was scum would derail the game as much as it has, I wouldn’t have made it. The fact that I clearly wasn’t thinking about the repercussions of my actions is, in my opinion, actually a town-tell, given that I tend to think about those sorts of things a lot more when I’m scum. Of course, I don’t suppose anybody will actually believe me. Much easier to continue believing that I’m the most idiotic scum in the world.

I really want this day to end so that I can go back to being über-aggressive Sarc.

[Sarcastro]

I think your lay thus far in the game discredits much of what you say, but I have stated this before...I am more interested in why you feel Ibby and Yag are looking pro-town to you

I think you should stop being fence-sitting, question-only scum. Give me your opinion and

then

ask me your questions.

[Sarcastro]

Upon review, it has become blatantly obvious that CKD is scum. I think we should be able to fit him into the lynching schedule after Blight and Cephrir. In fact, maybe he should go before Cephrir. Decisions, decisions.

[Sarcastro]

Furthermore, I want to know who the fuck you're suspicious of besides

me

. Why are you so reluctant to say anything about anyone besides the guy currented in the spotlight? All game, all you've done is make non-committal statements and ask questions. Give me opinions, not lazy play.

[Sarcastro]

You have been non-committal. You're not giving opinions at all - you're just asking questions in an attempt to appear helpful. Now, when I ask you to, all you do is insult my play as if that vindicates you somehow. Sorry, CKD, but you can't just pretend to contribute. Giving an opinion on me is hardly productive. There are enough of those, and it's incredibly easy for scum to decide what to think. You're going to have to do better than that.

Why do you care so much why I think Ibby and Yagami are pro-town? It's not as if I have some super-secret tells. And you asked me a question about who I suspected. I felt that it would be appropriate to tell you the people I thought were pro-town, too. Why are you so obsessed with this?

All you're doing is trying to take the easy way out, and that's

scummy

. You're not giving opinions, you're asking simplistic questions, you're only weighing in on the very biggest issues. You're certainly not going out of your way to be helpful, you're just doing the bare minimum to

appear

helpful.

[Sarcastro]

Man, I am on such a roll.

[Sarcastro]

I know there are a sea of lurkers, CKD, but they're not actively attempting to appear helpful when they're not. You're the one doing that. Is Flameaxe scummy for lurking after his claim? No, he's just annoying.

The only thing you appear to have weighed in on is whether or not I'm scummy, which, given that I am the most active and controversial player in the game right now, is not much.

I'm not dodging the question, CKD, but I'm not sure what kind of answer you want. Basically, Ibby and Yagami both seem pro-town. They don't seem scummy, for one thing, and they both give me general impressions of honesty. Though I disagreed with Yagami a lot, he seemed genuine in his beliefs, unlike, say, Blight. I

did

mention that I thought they were pro-town in response to a question, by the way. The question may not have asked it specifically, but I felt that it was rather relevant.

Now

you

stop dodging

my question

. Who else do you find scummy? You asked me this question before, so you can hardly refuse to answer.

Yagami, do you not see how constantly asking questions without actually giving opinions is suspicious? Pointless questions are a scum tactic, because they allow scum to seem like their contributing without actually committing themselves to real opinions.

[Sarcastro]

By "the worst" do you mean "OMGHEKNOWSIMSCUM"?

[Sarcastro]

So what you're saying is that you're scum, then? Sounds good to me.

Of course, if you really want to trick me into believing that you're not scum, you could try bussing Blight.

[Sarcastro]

Since when is Kison in this game?

[Sarcastro]

Hey, Blight. I know you have a busy schedule being scum and all, but it'd be nice if you would weigh in on how Yagami answered the questions you were too afraid to, and how he finally concluded that it wasn't as much of a scumtell as he thought. Don't worry, I won't argue with you again. I just want to hear your opinion. If you're too busy being incredibly scummy, though, I'll understand.

[Sarcastro]

SL isn't in the game, Skruffs.

[Sarcastro]

Once again, SL isn't in the game. Please pay attention.

[Sarcastro]

Why are you so win?

[Sarcastro]

So you disagree with Yagami's decision to accept that my "role-fishing" wasn't scummy (or at least wasn't scummy enough to keep a vote on me)? This is why I asked you to comment on my debate with Yagami. You're pushing the same tired old points, none of which make any sense.

[Sarcastro]

Blight, Cephrir, CKD, whatever.

Blight is my first choice, but I support the lynch of any of them.

[Sarcastro]

But I dun wanna die.

Then maybe next time you should contribute. I'm not sure why you interpreted your role (if it is indeed your true role) as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for non-contribution. Having to be on the lynch does not excuse you of your responsibilities as a pro-town player.

I still believe your claim, but not so much that I don't recognise how incredibly unhelpful you're being. We're not losing much if you're town.

To be honest, I'm actually okay with letting you keep living, especially if you help me lynch scum faster. But you have to contribute. If you don't, nobody is going to care enough about you to let you live.

[Sarcastro]

Unvote, Vote: Cephrir

Fine, we can get Blight tomorrow.

Claim please, scum.

[Sarcastro]

Btw... I'm fairly surprised at you, pj. I think you are the first person to mention a cult. This pops my cranial cells.

PJ is ever-vigilant.

[Sarcastro]

Oh yeah, and why isn't Cephrir dead yet? I asked him to claim a while ago. And I was serious that time.

[Sarcastro]

Look, Cephrir. You've had plenty of time to think up a fakeclaim. If you still haven't got one, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[Sarcastro]

No, PJ. A vote for Skruffs is a useless vote. WWFD?

[Sarcastro]

Dear Jelly,

Please help lynch Cephrir.

Yours sincerely,
Sarc.

P.S. This goes for everyone else not on the Cephrirwagon.

[Sarcastro]

Hey Sarc, what particular reason do you have to think Skruffs is not scum?

I don't. But there are at least three people who are scummier than he is, and your argument against him hasn't been especially convincing to me. Once Cephrir, Blight, and CKD are dead, I'll take a closer look at Skruffs if you want.

[Sarcastro]

This game needs a deadline, since apparently most of the town doesn't feel like ever actually lynching scum.

Cephrir needs to claim and/or die. Preferably and.

[Sarcastro]

Nobody cares, Yagami. It's pretty obvious that I'm pro-town, so if you'd stop saying that I'm scummy for what is obviously a matter of playstyle, that'd be nice.

Seriously, Yagami. I don't think you're scum, but you seem dead-set on changing my mind. I'm not interested in getting into another tedious argument in which I have to make 50 posts before you admit that your whole argument was complete nonsense.

I'm not going to defend the way I'm playing, especially if you don't even bother to explain why it's scummy.

I will quickly address your last point, since it's not about playstyle: what in the hell are you talking about? Of course I've

looked

at Skruffs. I've seen his posts, and I've seen PJ's arguments. I'm not convinced Skruffs is scum. There are three people I've caught who

are

scum, so yeah, I think I'm going to try to lynch them before the guy whom I don't think is scum. After they're all dead, maybe I'll revisit this Skruffs stuff. I really don't see how you could possibly think what I said was scummy.

So yeah, Yagami, please stop inventing ridiculous reasons for me to be scum. I have no idea why you would do this as town.

[Sarcastro]

You seem to have misunderstood the meaning of that emoticon, Cephrir.

I think you were looking for this one:

Or possibly this one:

[Sarcastro]

So you're saying you wanting reasons but not giving them is playstyle? Because that is the biggest thing I was getting at, you giving little to no reasons but wanting them when people vote you. Also, Nobody cares? well, then I'll just stop posting my thoughts and only post votes from this point on if nobody cares.

Yeah, but I can get away with it, because Blight, Cephrir and CKD are all actually scum. Oh, and I

did

give reasons. So yeah, that too.

Perhaps you're just thinking "well, I've written just as much as Sarc, so my reasons are just as good". Nope, sorry, doesn't work that way. One single word - "fence-sitting" - is a better reason to lynch Cephrir than everything you've said about me is to lynch me. This is because fence-sitting is something scum actually tend to do, whereas playing like Sarc is something that Sarc actually tends to do. Oh, and there's also the fact that Cephrir is basically just sitting around pretending to be playing at this point.

I have very good reasons for believing Blight, Cephrir and CKD to be scum. You have no good reason to believe that I'm scum, and yet you keep insisting that I am anyway. It's getting a little annoying. Please stop.

[Sarcastro]

This is ridiculous, Yagami. I have posted reasons why Cephrir is scum. Other people have posted reasons why Cephrir is scum. I just told you two reasons in the last post.

If you want to say that the reasons for voting Cephrir are "small", and the reasons for voting me are "very good", that's great for you, but that doesn't make those statements any less blatantly untrue. Quite frankly, you're lowering my opinion of you as a scumhunter if you think that what Cephrir has been doing all game is not scummy. He has contributed

nothing

all game. His posts are all short and contentless, and he constantly refuses to give any opinion besides "Sarc is scum because he think I'm scum". Most of his recent posts have been nothing but sarcasm directed at me. Come the fuck on, Yagami.

Read his posts.

Can you honestly defend that kind of non-contribution while attacking me for, what, being too aggressive or something?

And CKD, you're hilarious. Seriously. Go back and read the bit where I clearly explain why you're scum. You're almost as bad as Cephrir with the non-contribution, though at least you're trying to

fake

contribution. So what if I didn't say anything about you before? Maybe that was because you were doing such a good job at completely avoiding saying anything worth noticing. You "called me out"? Yeah right. You just jumped on the most controversial player in the game, using the same nonsense reasons others have. Call me when you actually bother to contribute something.

[Sarcastro]

Since when am I not allowed to agree with other people, Yagami? There are something like six or so people voting for Cephrir right now. Does each one of us need to have his own specific reason for doing so? I pointed out that Cephrir was blatantly fence-sitting. I agreed when other people pointed out his scummy behaviour. What exactly is wrong with that?

There are good reasons for voting Cephrir. There are no good reasons for voting me. I don't see how it's hypocritical to ask why people are voting for me despite said lack of reasons.

[Sarcastro]

Hm, I believe that's -2. I really don't think there's any point in claiming, I'll be lynched anyway.

Yeah, because refusing to claim is just

so

pro-town.

[Sarcastro]

Okay, well, if he's not going to claim, can we just kill him? Seriously, this game has slowed to a crawl.

[Sarcastro]

Yes, Glork, we get it; you're pretending to ponder while you prepare to bus Cephrir. Just get on with it, please.

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, well, maybe that's because this day is taking fucking forever. Just vote for Cephrir, please.

[Sarcastro]

You have a strange definition of "bitching".

Don't use my play as an excuse for your poor play. I'm not preventing you from contributing.

[Sarcastro]

Glork, all of those comments about my arguments with Blight and Yagami. None of them have to do with what you originally criticised, which was my implying that you're Cephrir's scumbuddy. So yeah, try again, please.

Bakura is obvscum. Die now.

[Sarcastro]

JDodge, my huge page-filling arguments with Blight and Yagami are not the same as one-line comments implying that Glork is scum. If people would rather I just didn't talk, I'd be fine with that, except that this town is so goddamn lazy it's taken 30 pages to lynch obvscum Cephrir. If you guys think that somehow people are taking so long

solely because of me

, then I'll just talk as little as possible tomorrow and we can see what happens. Sound good to you?

[Sarcastro]

Sarcastro, give me a rundown of your top 2 suspects and top 2 believed innocents with your best reason for each and any ancillary reasons that you feel are relevant enough to be mentioned.

Blight, Cephrir and CKD are scum (too close to pick two of them).

Cephrir has been avoiding contribution all game. His posts are short and pointless, half of them are sarcastic remarks aimed at me, he doesn't try to defend himself, and he's blatantly sitting on the fence and waiting for other people to make decisions for him. Oh yeah, and he claimed Bakura, who is obvscum.

Blight tried to get a bandwagon on me for incredibly lame reasons. He's not really scumhunting so much as looking for the easy person to be suspicious of (my original reason for voting him was that he said that Theo looked scummy for pointing out that Cephrir was obvscum, and seemed surprised that people didn't agree that starting a bandwagon is scummy). Also some other stuff probably came up during the huge argument in which I beat him into the ground, but I don't remember anymore.

CKD is a lot like Cephrir, but he's actually trying to hide his fence-sitting and opportunism with pointless questions, so that he looks like he's contributing. The only person he has an opinion on is me, and that only came after I was solidly established as the most controversial player in the game and once plenty of people had already expressed suspicion of me.

Ibby is pro-town. Ibby is always pro-town.

Yagami is pro-town. As frustrated as I got with him at points, he seemed unfailingly genuine in his arguments.

Anything else?

[Sarcastro]

Two things, Glork. One, there's a difference between short posts without content and short posts with them. Most of my posts contribute something

at very least

because they make my suspicions known. Two, I don't care if people make short, contentless posts, as long as

not all of their posts

are like that. Cephrir has been like that in every post, though. I have clearly not.

Why have you brought up that post, Glork? I already responded to it (kicking your ass in the process):

Compared to 95% of the game, yes. I have been a goddamned bastion of contribution. Filter through my posts (Fritz even provided those handy links at the start of the game) and compare me to, say.... BMQ, Xyzzy, Rogueben, Karmadog, PJ, CTD, Avalon, Theo, Flameaxe, Cephrir/Blight/Yagami up until the last few days.... and, well, you get the picture.

Yes, I do. You've contributed more than a bunch of people who

aren't me

. Thanks for playing.

Hey, Glork, let's look back at some of your suspicions. You voted for Blight based on Ibby's reasoning without adding anything of your own. You voted Skruffs based on a misunderstanding (but even then, it was a complete overreaction). You say you have a bad feeling about MoS for no particular reason. And then you vote for me based on some incredibly weak reasoning. And now you're suddenly going on about my non-contribution

after

I start contributing more than any other person in the game. Sounds more like

you're

the one trying to disguise non-contribution.

Your assertion that I'm trying to use this argument to somehow skirt real contribution (by giving real contribution? Not sure how that works) is absolutely ridiculous and

not

something I would ever do. I have a well-documented history of getting into these big sorts of arguments. Short and Sweet and Too Much Scum are two examples off the top of my head, one as scum and one as town. That's because I react the same way to a lot of things regardless of my alignment. I become frustrated easily. This is not even part of a playstyle, this is part of my

personality

. I do this everywhere, and you trying to assert that I'm like some awful mix of MBLScum and GlorkScum for it is ridiculous. I'm Sarc for it. Not SarcTown, not SarcScum, just Sarc.

I'm trying to decide if you really are acting scummy or if I just think that because I'm pissed at you for playing stupidly. This is not what I expect from you, Glork.

That last paragraph still holds true, by the way.

[Sarcastro]

[/quote]

[Sarcastro]

I'm pretty sure I also pointed out that you

don't

do this everywhere. I think I even cited 8-Bit as a counterexample.

What are we talking about here? My huge argument posts or my short posts?

Interesting that you mention 8-Bit, though.

You state that "all" of your posts are like that, but you fail to address the fact that the

majority

of them are. Cephrir has made contributive posts as well, yet the way I see it, you seem to be trying to hold him to a different standard.

Not sure what you're saying here. Did you make a typo in the first sentence? My posts are not "all" anything. Some don't really contribute much. I know that. My point is that most of my posts are. I don't rememeber seeing any meaningful contribution from Cephrir.

What do you think of Cephrir's claimed name and role in relation to his comment that claiming would be quite useless?

I don't think that comment really has anything to do with his role. Even if he's town, it seems more like a "give-up" post.

[Sarcastro]

Sarc, a question of clarification: Do you have

ANY

idea why you even

MIGHT

have been mentioned in the Day-Opening post for

ANY

reason whatsoever?

No reason related to my role.

Look, Glork. You don't like the way I've been playing. Well, I don't like the way you've been playing, either (though in a different way, I think). Just ask yourself if my play has actually been scummy. Before you ask, no, I can't find a game where I played like this pro-town, but neither have I ever played this way as scum. The closest I can think of, to be honest, is 8-Bit, in which I made a lot of overconfident statements, though I wasn't as spammy.

I'm sick of this lazy town. You guys want me to talk less? Fine. I won't say anything unless someone asks me a question or there's something specific I want to comment on. But for fuck's sake, can we

please

lynch something already?

[Sarcastro]

<3 Ibby.

[Sarcastro]

Now the Ceph wagon doesn’t look like it will take you are attacking me, hoping maybe that shit will stick to the wall…oh look, you have Sarc’s backing...good for you.

Did you already use that lame expression, or was it someone else? You can't just say that people are "hoping shit will stick to the wall" and use that to explain away the fact that you're acting incredibly scummy.

Here's what I want you to do, CKD, and if done properly it would be a lot more convincing that "I'm not scum, you're scum for presenting a case against me!" - give me your opinions on each person in the game. It doesn't have to be anything big, just one or two sentences on what you think of everyone.

[Sarcastro]

CKD, why are you ignoring my request? Do you think it's unfair that I'm actually asking you to give opinions on players besides me and Ibby?

[Sarcastro]

Why is this so hard, CKD? Do you not have any suspicions right now? I'm not asking you to re-read the whole game, just tell us which players you currently find suspicious and which you don't. Do you not already have opinions on most of the players in the game? You shouldn't have to re-read the game to know which players you think are scum.

[Sarcastro]

No, CKD, I'm not asking you for quotes. I'm asking you to give me a quick rundown of which players you currently think are scum and which you think are town. Here's a hint if you don't understand what I'm getting at: I don't really care how convincing you are. I'm not using your opinions to evaluate other people, I'm using them to evaluate you.

The fact that you can't give me any opinions without a re-read isn't exactly a point in your favour.

[Sarcastro]

It does raise some question, the most important being "since when do you think I'm town?".

[Sarcastro]

For the record, I don't buy CKD's claim. However, I'm fine with lynching Cephrir or Blight instead.

[Sarcastro]

that being said, havent heard from Sarc much since my claim...wonder why that is?

Oh come on, CKD. Are you that desperate to throw suspicion on me? You haven't heard from me much since I

stated that I wasn't going to talk unless I was asked a question or wanted specifically to comment on something

.

I said that I don't believe you're claim. For the record, it's because you're acting so incredibly scummy that I simply will not believe you are not scum until Fritz posts it in the first post, and even then I might wonder if you're some kind of Death-Godfather.

I don't buy that we just happened to hit upon a cop when one is already dead. Finding a scum who's decided to fakeclaim cop seems a lot more likely.

Oh, and Glork, please stop being scum.

[Sarcastro]

28 players, and only one (sanity not confirmed) cop?
Seriously?

I didn't say anything close to that.

You guys are looking at this the wrong way. It's not about how many cops there are, it's about the likelihood that we just happen to have started a bandwagon on a second cop.

Let's say there were two cops at the game's start. One cop is dead now. That means there is one cop left out of 21 remaining players. We have had three people claim so far today. That's one seventh of the players. There is only a one in seven chance, assuming role does not affect bandwagon likelihood, that the cop would be one of those three people.

Of course, this alone doesn't really prove anything. After all, there's only a one in seven chance of any one-of role being one of those who's claimed. But what are the odds of hitting scum who decide to fakeclaim cop? Cop is obviously a desirable fakeclaim for scum, and it's one that scum are decently likely to get away with (at least for a while) in a large game. Let's assume there are, say, five scum in this game. I'm also going to assume that at least one of those scum would fakeclaim cop if they were forced to claim at this point in the game. Is that an unreasonable assumption? I think it might even be a bit conservative. There's also the fact that scum are generally more likely to be run up than cops, because, y'know, they're scum, and so on average tend to be scummier. But even discounting that and going by my rather conservative estimates

and assuming that there were two cops to begin with rather than one

, it is

at least

as likely that CKD is scum fakeclaiming cop.

Oh, and there's also the fact that he's more scummy than most species of algae. So yeah, I would not at all be opposed to a CKD lynch. If you want to keep him alive because of the possibility that he really is a cop, go ahead. Personally, though, I prefer to lynch scum when I catch it.

And by the way, Elmo, I don't see how adding a comment about Glork's scumminess contradicts what I said. I spoke for a reason - to address what CKD said. I never said that I wouldn't throw in unrelated comments. Oh, and there's also the fact that I can do whatever the hell I want, and I'm only limiting my speech as a courtesy to those who are apparently so distracted by it that it prevents them from playing properly. So I'd rather not have you trying to police my behaviour, especially when you clearly don't even pay attention to what I said my behaviour would be.

[Sarcastro]

What don't you like about my argument, Rogueben? Do you not agree with my analysis, or do you just think that the possible benefits if he is a cop outweigh the risk that he's scum, regardless of how much more likely it is that he's the latter?

[Sarcastro]

Which assumptions don't you like?

And I think you might have missed the main point. It's not about how likely 1/7 is, but rather about how likely it is that he's a cop versus how likely it is that he's scum who's claimed cop. It doesn't really matter whether it's 1/7 or 1/100 or 1/2, the point is that even given what I think are conservative estimates and not counting several factors that point to him being scum, he's still at least as likely to be scum as he is to be a real cop.

[Sarcastro]

That doesn't answer my question or address my point. Why bother answering if you're just going be evasive and irrelevant?

I realise that your opinion is that it's better to leave him alive for now. I'm just trying to get some more information on what you don't like about my argument, rather than about why you don't like the course of action I'd prefer to take.

[Sarcastro]

The main problem that I have with your argument is that you use maths throughout to try and convince people that what you say is correct when in fact your probabilities don't match your final judgement.

Let's assume there are, say, five scum in this game. I'm also going to assume that at least one of those scum would fakeclaim cop if they were forced to claim at this point in the game.

You, I believe, require at least 3 scum to "plan" to fakeclaim cop for the probabilities to be equivalent to it being a cop.
This is because you have a 5/21 chance of hitting scum. Now if only one of them was planning on fakeclaiming cop then you have 1/5 * 5/21 = 1/21 chance of them being scum fakeclaiming cop. So for these probabilities to be equivalent you need 3/5 * 5/21 = 321 = 1/7, ie 3 scum who plan on fakeclaiming cop.

Is it likely that three fifths of the scum "plan" to fakeclaim cop? I don't know and I think that is too far into the realm of assumption to be able to say

it is at least as likely that CKD is scum fakeclaiming cop.

If I have missed something in your argument please tell me.

Yes, if you're saying that you believe there are three living cops.

Look at it this way: I'm saying that there are probably at least as many scum who would claim cop in this game right now as there are cops. If there is only one cop left, then only one scum needs to be prepared to claim cop for them to be equal. It seems you've been confused by my "one in seven chance". Remember that I was just saying that because there have been three claims today. (1/21) + (20/21 x 1/20) + (20/21 x 19/20 x 1/19) = 1/21 + 1/21 + 1/21. The same thing applies to the one scum that would fakeclaim cop.

Also, please remember all the variables I didn't take into account, such as the fact that scum are more likely to be run up than cops. There's also the fact that there may be no cops left at all and the fact that CKD is vying for the title of "Most Obvious Scum Ever".

[Sarcastro]

I thought it was pretty transparent and intuitive. Apparently not transparent enough for you, though. That's pretty much what you get when you take half of my calculations for granted and then make up your own numbers, so yeah. Not too much sympathy here.

I don't view it as a 50% chance. I view it as

he's scum

. I'm just trying to show you guys that someone claiming cop at this point is more likely to be scum than an actual cop.

[Sarcastro]

Frankly I don't think many other people read your big mathematical analysis post in detail. I think most people see your posts in this game and just ignore them because a lot of the time you are just being abrasive or repetitive.

Well that's simply bad play, especially since I haven't made a post like that in quite some time. Don't get mad at me just because you feel stupid for messing up some basic math.

Skruffs, it's not bad play to lynch a claimed cop if there's a good chance he's scum. Besides, I'm not pushing that hard for CKD's lynch. In fact, I'm not even voting for him right now. I just wanted to make it clear that his cop claim does not change the fact that he's probably scum. If people feel like keeping him alive, I'm okay with that. I don't really expect him to be lynched today (mostly because people are just naturally opposed to lynching claimed cops, for better or worse).

Anyway, I should probably start posting less, in case my big scary posts frighten some of the players away.

[Sarcastro]

I never said we had to lynch CKD, MoS. I'd support it, sure, but I've made it clear that there are other people I'm fine with lynching. Again, I'm not even voting for him right now, nor do I expect that he'll be lynched today.

And no, CKD is not "probably protown". He is very probably scum, and, unlike you, I've given a reason for my belief.

[Sarcastro]

Elmo, I'm not advocating a CKD lynch based on the numbers. I'm advocating a CKD lynch based on the fact that he's

acting in an incredibly scummy fashion

. The numbers are my effort to explain why a cop claim is not a good reason not to lynch him, and why it actually lends credence to my argument that he's scum.

[Sarcastro]

We don't "have" to give them anything. This is, quite frankly, a dumb assumption that people just take for granted.

Anyway, who cares? It's clear that CKD isn't going to be lynched, and I don't want everybody blaming me for magically preventing them from contributing again. This game needed a deadline about a month ago. Will you guys just pick someone to lynch already? This CKD discussion is irrelevant to what you should all be doing.

[Sarcastro]

So with nothing else to go on

Wrong. Try again.

[Sarcastro]

Thank you.

And they disgust me, too.

[Sarcastro]

We're putting you out of your misery. In a week.

Is that a confession?

[Sarcastro]

You'll have an easier time of it if you just nightkill me, MoS.

[Sarcastro]

All right, since it's obvious that CKD isn't going to die today, and since killing me would be so monumentally stupid it's not even worth considering, the real choice is between Iammars and Cephrir. To ensure that the idiots/scum don't sneak in an extra Sarc vote or two before the deadline, the competent pro-town players are going to have to choose one of those two to make dead. My vote in on Cephrir for now, but then again, Iammars is not only scum but also blatantly trying to get the most pro-town player in the game killed, so I'm fine with his death, too.

[Sarcastro]

Could somebody sum up the case against Mars for me?

I'm a really lazy bastard.

He replaced Blight.

[Sarcastro]

So, CKD, are you ready to die yet? Or would you like to fake some kind of result first?

[Sarcastro]

Hey, IH, are you the SK?

[Sarcastro]

Godfuckingdammit.