A Song of Ice and Fire UPick - Game Over


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Post Post #115 (isolation #0) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:09 am

Post by toolenduso »

Feel like we're already coming out of RVS. Few things:

-People are suspicious of spiff because of meta? As somebody who hasn't played with him before I get a townvibe from his entry; seems like he's trying to get people to react and get reads.
-Torn on SW's response to the flashwagon. Need to mull it over. Will vote in the meantime.
-Jeanne's fake shot is like a weak reason to lean town on her.
-Don't understand FA right now but then there are like five new posts a minute so.

@Albert and TSO:
Hi!!!
@Spiff:
Why is ika town?

VOTE: SW
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #143 (isolation #1) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:20 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 122, SilverWolf wrote:So you jumped on the biggest wagon because?


Because that's how I can begin looking for sortable reactions.

In post 122, SilverWolf wrote:What don't you like about my reaction to the large wagon on me before I posted?


It's just that it was defensive, almost like you were assuming that you would find scum on your wagon. Which doesn't necessarily hold water given that it was a flashwagon right out the gate and several people hadn't even posted yet. It makes sense as a tool for sorting you, but you assume it's driven by scum?

On the other hand, I understand looking at it because the wagon then becomes one of the best early resources for gauging reactions. So that's why I'm torn. I think I want to look at it within the context of your other posts a little closer.

P-EDIT:

@....cheetory, I think? What is befaffling about asking spiff why ika is town? he said ika was town.
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #199 (isolation #2) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:40 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 150, Cheetory6 wrote:It's a little befaffling that you're voting Silver for questionable reasons when she's already pursued that line of questioning.


OK I missed that one amid the flurry of posting, but...why does that make her town? And why shouldn't I ask that question, when all Silver said was that Spiff pings because he gave ika a townread too easily?

P-edit: wait, frozen was actually angry? I thought she was joking.
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Post Post #213 (isolation #3) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:49 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 204, Cheetory6 wrote:Just seems weird to me that you're questioning Spiff for that, while voting Silver basically for being a wagon when she was also pressuring Spiff for that. Seems counter-productive, no?


No, it's producing things on multiple fronts. I get stuff from Silver along with Spiff and now you. All of that is readable. I mean, you know, when posting slows to fewer than 10 per minute.

P-edit: Jeanne, I don't know what it is you're getting at but just know that it is very early and we have people who have yet to even post. You've already given away that you're a PR, so think about how much info you're giving to scum before you make any decisions.
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Post Post #214 (isolation #4) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:50 am

Post by toolenduso »

rkvothe, why the list? and why include people who haven't posted yet?
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Post Post #233 (isolation #5) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:05 am

Post by toolenduso »

@Moonlight: Do you see scum faking a dayvig shot and then continuing to hint about doing something, all this early in the game?
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Post Post #238 (isolation #6) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:10 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 234, TriforceP wrote:
In post 214, toolenduso wrote:rkvothe, why the list? and why include people who haven't posted yet?

Why not the list?


Didn't say it was a bad idea, I just wanted to hear his answer.

Deliberately ignoring the other bit for now.
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Post Post #259 (isolation #7) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:25 am

Post by toolenduso »

^agree with wisdom. I think you're overestimating how much suspicion there is on you right now
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Post Post #546 (isolation #8) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:21 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 528, T S O wrote:I don't really mind Jeanne doing that - she would eventually have got ran up somehow, so this just saves us the hassle.


I'm hoping that if nothing it else it calms silver and ika the fuck down.

As for FA's explanation, I buy that and it explains her behavior thus far.
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Post Post #765 (isolation #9) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:19 pm

Post by toolenduso »

ika
: Can you explain your scumread on spiffeh? And are you planning on switching off of jeanne now that she's mod-confirmed?

Also interested in why you're townreading silver so hard but I'm assuming it's going to boil down to "meta."
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Post Post #767 (isolation #10) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:45 pm

Post by toolenduso »

OK I had a list of selected ISOs I wanted to get through and I've gotten through most of them. Still need to do cheet and now I'm going to add on ank and maybe people on his wagon to see what's going on over there:

Spoiler: Silver
-The reads list early on...initially I had hesitations about it. As I explained, it seemed like Silver was assuming that there was scum on her wagon, which didn't really make sense given that her wagon was basically a tool for getting out of RVS. Now I do think that the alternative explanation -- "hey a wagon on me, that's a good place to start looking for scum" -- makes just as much sense.
-Spiff brings up that Silver later defends her post by saying it was only her second post, which contradicts her using others' first posts to read them. He makes a good point, this is a lame defense from Silver and honestly is preventing me from moving on from Silver. Just this, combined with her entrance, combined with her redirecting onto Spiff...it feels like scum caught off guard to me. Her entrance by itself isn't necessarily scummy, but that plus this does look kinda scummy.
-Her reasons for scumreading Spiff are fine.


Spoiler: Frozen
-Her early caps-locking stuff gets reduced to null for me because of her later explanation of RL stuff.
-Later posts devolve into what actually looks like trying to figure out the game. See #275 and #288. #326 is a good example as well because it's Frozen questioning Peregrine's vote on me despite saying herself that I made her uneasy.
-I get a good vibe from her ISO.


Spoiler: Wisdom
-Posts look more or less like scumhunting. A mix of observation and "poking" people by just outright calling them scum.
-The ank vote fits with that explanation.
-Yeah I get a somewhat town vibe from this slot but it's not strong. Feel like I need to keep an eye on it.


Spoiler: rkvothe
-The switch from Silver to FA in #39 is weird. I get jumping on the Silver wagon (I did it) to get reactions and stuff. But then, 15 minutes later, he suddenly jumps to FA for what appears to be a joke reason? Kind of makes me think of scum who got scared about not being able to justify the vote on silver or something. Or got scared about the wagon building up (there were like four more votes on silver in between rk's vote on silver and his vote on FA).
-Some of his posts after that don't really seem like he's actually scumreading FA. He talks to her like she's town. See #181 and #189.
-#205....could be scum trying to decide whether they need to come up with a fake flavor claim or not.
-Then #306 seems like he was just waiting for an excuse to unvote FA.


Spoiler: ika
-super aggressive townread on silver and super aggressive scumreads on spiff and jeanne without explanation. assuming this is playstyle and not alignment indicative.
-still, would like explanation for scumread on spiff at least.
-i find myself utterly unsure of how to read this slot. think i will need more concrete things to dig into.


Spoiler: Spiff
-Again, the early posts give me a town feel. He just super quickly starts throwing around town and scum reads, and it really looks like he's doing it in an attempt to get things going so he can start developing reads.
-That continues.
-Yeah just generally gives me townvibes. Not strong ones, but still.


VOTE: rkvothe

Why isn't there more focus here? rkvothe does not look good.
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Post Post #769 (isolation #11) » Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:50 pm

Post by toolenduso »

....ok. What don't you get? I don't see anything particularly scummy-looking in her given reasons for scumreading you.
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Post Post #997 (isolation #12) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:49 am

Post by toolenduso »

holy christ you guys. can we please fucking stop. like this game is hard enough to keep up with already without four-five slots rehashing the same shit over and over again.

like if you feel insulted. just let it go. just stop friggin thinking about it. or replace out.

that being said, i feel like i need to start digging in this IC reveal-rando vote-reaction to rando stuff. things feel scummy in the third part of it.

somebody a while ago said that they could see town explanations for the stuff i listed on rkvothe. I would like to hear them.
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Post Post #1025 (isolation #13) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:18 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 844, Frozen Angel wrote:thx ... maybe?! why you weren't pushing me before my explanation then?

you were obviously holding middleground


...no. I just didn't think you looked scummier than other people.
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Post Post #1029 (isolation #14) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:20 am

Post by toolenduso »

silver, how the hell do you see this turning out. do you honestly think that what you want to happen is going to happen.

please. please just stop.
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #15) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:23 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 1031, Cheetory6 wrote:Silver's being fine.
How about you stop stoking the flames here bud.


Not stoking flames. trying to get them to drop it. which...apparently....is happening?
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Post Post #1064 (isolation #16) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:50 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 1058, Wisdom wrote:
In post 1055, Cheetory6 wrote:
@Mod can we get a force replace on jeanne for turning this game into a discussion rather than actually playing? Or a warning? Something? I'm losing my mind here.


Seconded


nth
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Post Post #1108 (isolation #17) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:45 am

Post by toolenduso »

at this point i am happy to have a wagon on me so we can talk about something else. i will try to respond today but it might be a busy one for me.
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Post Post #1334 (isolation #18) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:54 am

Post by toolenduso »

ok i am literally going to just not read everything jeanne posts from now on because I know her alignment and don't trust her to say anything that will help me figure out the game. so jeanne if you want to talk to me its gonna have to be in bold or something.

wisdom, quick question -- why are you assuming scum have daychat?
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Post Post #1425 (isolation #19) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:40 am

Post by toolenduso »

ok look i do not have a ton of time right now so let me just respond to what I can remember people saying:

1. wisdom said he doesn't think it's possible for me to believe that rok was trying to get feedback on fakeclaims. this is based on an assumption of the way i think that is not true. i did believe that could be true at the time. if most larges have daychat then that changes things. but my thought process went like this: this is a flavor heavy game. scum would want to have fake claims ready, but it's the sort of thing they might forget to do, then remember later and feel like they need to come up with something asap.
2. and yes, wisdom, it was meant to be a loaded question. that's how you get people to react.
3. i was not fucking stoking the fire of the jeanne/silver/ika bullshit. read it again. i was trying to get them to stop. so were you. so were a lot of people. why? because it is the biggest fucking whirlpool of anti-town activity drainage i have ever seen and it has made it very, very difficult to play this game.
4. so much so that i haven't been able to put in the amount of work i normally like and now it has led to people misunderstanding and misinterpreting my arguments, it has led to me not being able to scumhunt the way i want to and now i am being run up.
5. everybody seems to be ignoring the other part of the rok case, which was by far the more important piece. rok hopped onto the silver bandwagon then immediately hopped off when it started gaining momentum, and he hopped instead onto a player that he didn't really seem to be scumreading, only to later unvote her as soon as she did something that he appeared to have already decided would make her look town. that does not look genuine to me.
6. and wisdom, i told people i would not be reading jeanne's comments because if she asks me something and i don't respond, or says something that people would normally expect me to respond to, i want them to know why i am not doing that. overall i want to be transparent about what im doing because it shows people my thought process and -- typically, at least -- leads them to realize that im town faster.

not reading p-edits before i post this
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Post Post #1444 (isolation #20) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:53 am

Post by toolenduso »

rkvothe i tried to respond to your case. things are a little hectic right now so if you want me to respond to something specific that i didnt address then it would be much more likely to happen if you can point it out

p-edit

@cheet i am actually saddened by your continued insistence about this. this is like a life philosophy thing for me. i deeply believe that people need to just fucking get over themselves for the greater good and for their own good and i was trying to lead them in that direction. and here you come saying i was stoking the flames. stoking the fucking flames. i was trying to express my life view. what the fuck would you have me do, ask them nicely. side with one or the other. like i do not fucking understand where youre coming from at all and it is pissing me off.
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Post Post #1459 (isolation #21) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:02 pm

Post by toolenduso »

what wisdom said is right. it was not an attack. it was not fists swinging. it was bluntly trying to get her to see the error of her ways.

and she was "winding down" in the way she, ika and jeanne had already "wound down" in the thread prior to that. by telling the "other side" exactly what they had to do to make it all stop, and making that thing something that the "other side" was clearly, obviously not willing to do. she was demanding an apology from a person who felt they were owed an apology first. the way to make it stop, from silver's pov, would have been to let it go herself without conditions. the way for jeanne to make it stop, from her pov, would have been to let it go without conditions. same for ika. why did i go for silver in that moment? because she was the last to post.
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Post Post #1487 (isolation #22) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:45 pm

Post by toolenduso »

im going to set aside some time to really work on this game tonight bc thus far its moved so fast i havent been able to build a lot of solid reads. that means i will be using the iso tool a lot and might not see things directed specifically at me.
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Post Post #1668 (isolation #23) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:35 pm

Post by toolenduso »

cheet looks town for recent posting.

going to start doing my thing now.

but before i do i wanted to ask ika about her reaction to cheet suggesting that she was "using" silver. ika, you lost your shit at that. but earlier when abr was saying the same thing (or basically the same), all you did was kind of wave it aside.

why the difference?

p-edit: i mean, can you blame him? (xtoxm)
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Post Post #1680 (isolation #24) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:44 pm

Post by toolenduso »

ok, well thanks for the explanation. makes sense if i let go of my personal interpretation of the two words, but it's buyable.

and im sorry i will try to call you by your actual gender. i have legit mixed you up with silver this game because of the wolf avis and the attached-at-the-hip defenses.
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Post Post #1686 (isolation #25) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Post by toolenduso »

OK so first some general thoughts on the gamestate:

1. I see, essentially, four groups of people. There are a handful of players who have been extremely emotional and let that dictate their playing. That's frozen, ika, silver and jeanne. Then there's a group of people who have been very reactionary and made a lot of definitive statements (ex.: "x is def town") but not necessarily held onto them. That's wisdom, cheet, rkvothe and spiff. Then there are people who have been perpetually struggling to catch up with the game but still have a decent amount of content. This is where the majority of players are and where I fall. Then there are the people who barely have anything -- xtoxm and drixx, with peregrine and kelbris kinda straddling the line into the next category up.
2. Looking at where it would make sense for scum to fall in here, and given that there will be more scum than i'm used to dealing with (bulk of my games have been mini normals), and given the ridiculous pacing of this game, I see two places where it would make a lot of sense for scum to be: chasing the constant flow of new suspicions in this game (silver, jeanne, ank, kuroi, me, tso, albert iirc is the way it's gone). And the second place is to hide out in the "perpetually catching up" category" and let town gnaw on itself.
3. It's entirely possible there are scum who don't fit into those two places. But, as I said, there are more scum here than the typical three-person team I'm used to dealing with. So that means there's plenty of room for one player to be leading wagons around, another player to be hiding behind their emotions, a lurker, a bandwagon follower, etc. The two places I most expect scum to be (chasing the flow of suspicion and hiding out) are where I would expect the weaker/less aggressive/less confident members of the scum team to be.

This is the basis of how I'm going to approach my work tonight. It's here because I wanted to work through my thoughts by writing them down and so you have context to help understand the way I'm going to be reading the thread. Instead of, you know, misunderstanding me.
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Post Post #1711 (isolation #26) » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:46 pm

Post by toolenduso »

One series of events I want to look at in particular is the jeanne ic reveal followed by the rando vote followed by the reactions to rando. There's a lot to work with in there and I feel a good place to look for follower-type scum.

Spoiler: Recap of events
-First, mod confirms Jeanne in #518. At this point I believe there were like three votes on jeanne, but this is guesswork on my part because the mod has not been able to keep up with the pace of the game as far as vc's go (completely understandable, elyse).
-Rando votes jeanne in #521, two minutes after the mod's ic reveal.
-Kelbris votes rando in #536.
-Spiff naked votes kelbris in #539.
-Wisdom questions kelb's logic in #540.
-Rando shows in #542 and #543 that he did not see Jeanne's confirmation before he voted. I believe this is true regardless of rando's alignment.
-Massive brings a small meta defense of Kelb in #550.
-Wisdom works against cheet's townread on rando in #552. Then he agrees kelb is town three posts later.
-Spiff agrees and unvotes in #562.
-Kelb reinforces his vote on jeanne, then Kuroi sheeps and votes jeanne in #568.
-Rando votes Kelb in #596.
-Cheet votes Kuroi in #613.
-As all this has happens, people start voting ank: Silver in #541, spiff in #562, moonlight in #624
-Rando switches to Kuroi in #635.
-Silver naked votes Kuroi in #646.
-Wisdom starts to back down from scumreading Kuroi in #649. He and Spiff both start pushing toward Ank.
-Kuroi unvotes rando in #687 after hearing out people's criticisms on his vote.
-Peregrine comes in in #702 and reinforces reasoning for Kuroi's vote on Rando. Continues arguing in that direction for a bit.
-ABR votes Kuroi in #736.
-Kuroi begins suspecting ABR in #796, ABR digs in his heels.


I'm actually wondering about the timing of this mild wagon on ankamius during all this. kinda just want to bookmark it for now.

There are some general flags in here to keep in mind for the future, but really I think this comes down to rando and Kuroi. The timing of rando's vote on Jeanne is null, but the vote itself is not. He didn't give any reasoning for it, and in fact said in #512 that he thought she was town but wanted to lynch her anyway. Silver and ika were already on Jeanne. This fits with the "following scum" theory, along with rando's subsequent votes on kelb, then kuroi.

Kuroi was bad as well and looks like a possibility for following scum. The arc looks like scum opportunism (on rando, sheeping kelbris) followed by backing down from his read because it earned him pressure, followed by a redirection onto Albert. #796 from Kuroi is particularly weaksauce reasoning.

Spoiler: Rando ISO
-First post (#24) is him hopping on the silver bandwagon with a naked vote. Like I've said before, I get it. It was actually a really awesome way to start the game because it quickly got people talking about things that matter instead of shuffling through RVS for a while. So nothing definitive on it, but I do want it marked to see rando's follow-up on it later in his ISO.
-OK yeah the Jeanne-Kelb-Kuroi thing does look a little weird. Like he either felt uncomfortable where he was or saw an opportunity to take advantage of town's misdirection.
-The wording of #866 bugs me. Instead of explaining his point of view, he's explaining it from a point of view of somebody who doesn't know whether he's town. I get that he's explaining it to people who don't know whether he's town, but...still. Bugs me.
-His hop from kuroi to TriForce (#1235) followed by his hop a couple hours later (#1401) from Triforce to me also fit in with the "following scum" motif.


Spoiler: Kuroi ISO, except for rando flap
-I didn't realize just how many posts Kuroi has. More than 100. That's a little surprising, since I feel like he hasn't actually done a ton in this game. A lot of posts are jokes tbh. That, combined with a lot of his response to people, read like filler.
-He also has a penchant for unvoting rather than switching votes. Does it with massive after his RVS vote, then with Rando after people criticize him for it.
-He doesn't votes ABR despite his FoS on the slot. In #828 he implies that it's because ABR might be a newb (he's far from being a newb, but that's neither here nor there).
-Also casts suspicion on frozen in #1129 without voting her.
-Questioning of me in #1362 is...weird. He asks why it's ever a good strategy to jump on a bandwagon to see how people react. Like what? He literally just stated the reasoning for it in the question, and he's saying he doesn't understand why? Like I kind of feel like he threw this out there because people were challenging his townread on me.
-Honestly not sure what to make of his refusal to join my wagon. On the one hand it would have been easy, since he sowed seeds for it in #1362 and momentum was swinging me way. On the other hand, maybe he was wary of taking up another wagon and getting scumread for it again. Yeah...don't know which one is more likely.
-Votes ABR in #1454 while saying my lynch is scum-driven. If we get a scumflip on Kuroi, this actually does make me think my wagon had at least one scum on it and Kuroi didn't want to tie himself with his partner.
-Yeah I see lots of reasons to scumread Kuroi in here.


Not quite sure which looks worse right now. Leaning Kuroi.

Still have more work I want to do, but this took longer than I thought it would and it's getting late so I'll have to pick it back up tomorrow. List:

-Look at Silver wagon
-Look at ank wagon
-Look at my wagon
-ISO massive

rk I haven't forgotten you wanted me to respond to you. I will work that in as well.
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Post Post #1766 (isolation #27) » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:26 am

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All right I decided to do responses first because it should take less time than the rest and I'm short on time atm.

In post 1754, massive wrote:
In post 1668, toolenduso wrote:cheet looks town for recent posting.

Wait. It's just NOW that he's starting to look like town?


Yeah, didn't have a good read before. Didn't get a chance to ISO him.

In post 1100, rkvothe wrote:a) Why should I justify my vote on SW? I wasn't so sure about jumping there at first, but then I understood ika's intentions. Knowing the friendship between ika and SW, I guessed that the wagon would serve as scumhunting material for SW, and that ika, knowing her friend, predicted that it would be useful for SW. When many people jumped on it, I jumped onto FA jokingly, since we still sorta were on RVS, and I liked the pressure of my vote.


Yeah, that's what I don't get. You vote SW to put pressure on her and get scumhunting material, and then switch to FA as a joke? Did you get anything out of voting SW, any read on her based on your pressure?

In post 1100, rkvothe wrote:b) I'm serious when I say that I like FA's townplay. My jokey-pressuring vote was driving her mad and I was scared of her being actually town and getting lynched because supposedly null emotions at the time. I was mostly trying her to cool down and answer coherently so we could move on.


Ok. Fair enough I suppose.

In post 1100, rkvothe wrote:c) That's awful. This is not only my first uPick, but also my second game of forum mafia ever. I was wondering if flavor-claim would make things easier for us or if they're just that, flavor.


Wisdom's point about daychat kinda already ruined this one for me anyway. Want to verify by looking through archives but yeah.

In post 1100, rkvothe wrote:d) FA got back in the game, and she was acting town, so I was relieved about it, you're reading too much into it.


Feel like your second point explains the unvote as well.

Suppose I probably skimmed over this post when you first posted it. Sorry about that. I see now it wasn't a very solid case.

Still doesn't necessarily mean rkvothe is town. Just means I have to reread him at some point with a fresh view.

Can't remember right now if there's anything else people wanted me to respond to...if there is, let me know.
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Post Post #2102 (isolation #28) » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:45 pm

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@Wisdom: Have you stopped scumreading ank, and if so, when and why?
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Post Post #2104 (isolation #29) » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:14 pm

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I've kind of wound up stitching together pictures of what happened during the wagons I want to look at, which is difficult because the pace of the game means that things that actually happened close to each other in time are spread out across several pages -- plus the mod hasn't been able to do vcs on each page. So this is taking a while, and I'm thinking the best way to go about it is going to be to just get all the work done and then look at threads between all the wagons. Then follow up with selected ISO reads to fill in context.

Spoiler: Silver wagon
-It went: Spiff, ika, rkvothe, wisdom, moonlight, rando, jeanne (L-4)
-Spiff started the wagon, clearly to get reactions and move people out of RVS, and he followed through by gauging people's reactions. Nothing scummy here imo.
-ika gives the reason of wanting to sort silver first. This point has been rehashed over and over again in this game -- they're close. So the approach, which ends with ika having an "ic town" read on silver, actually makes sense. And yeah, I think their alignments are basically tied together. But I don't see any reason to suspect ika from this.
-rkvothe. As I've already noted, he left his RVS vote to join this wagon, then hopped off without seeing it through to joke vote jeanne. He's explained now (#1786) that his vote wasn't needed to pressure silver anymore, and that kinda sorta works as an explanation but it still seems suspicious to me because it shows that he didn't care all that much about sorting silver. I think this is the only point in my original case I'm not willing to totally let go of. So will keep it around for when I eventually reevaluate rkvothe.
-Wisdom's hop on the wagon seems genuine enough. He questions ika's reasoning for doing it but joins the wagon anyway. As in, multiple-front scumhunting. He does a lot of this sort of thing early on.
-Moonlight ends up not getting a whole lot from the silver wagon I think, other than saying that silver has his attention (117). Looks like he got distracted by other stuff going on, which is fine.
-rando's vote hop off of Silver I've already discussed. It's somewhat suspicious and fits the following scum arc.
-well that didn't help a whole lot. I'll have it around for reference and context with other wagons.


Spoiler: Ank wagon
-It goes: Wisdom (#293, switches in #871), FA (#296, switches in #310), Spiff (#449, switches in #539 and then back to Ank in #562, switches for good in #1068), Silver in #541 (switches in #646), moonlight #624 (switches in #868), tri in #766 (switches in #1229), ika in #806 (switches in #963), and now I feel like I've reached the end of the wagon but this is taking forever so I'm not going to keep going until page 80 whatever we're on now.
-Wisdom: His vote on ank is naked, but he agrees with spiff in #367 that ank's questions look like scum trying to stay busy. He doesn't really interact a whole lot with ank but then I get the sense this is just how he plays. He does continually try to recruit people to join the wagon. When he finally switches I get the sense that it's because he wants to push rando, not because anything has changed with ank, but ank is off his list of scum in #1061 and #1182. Would like to know more about it but other than that wisdom's arc with ank looks fine to me.
-FA: FA wasn't the first person to vote ank -- wisdom was -- but I believe she was the first person to give actual reasons for it. In #288 she quotes what might have been all of ank's posts at the time, which were not much. The switch to massive was because massive refused to explain why he was townreading ank. Fair enough.
-Spiff: This, like all of Spiff's pushes I've seen, looks pretty genuine. He pushes ank and uses the push to gather insight not only from ank, but from other players in the game interacting with the wagon as well. The thing I'm starting to realize is that Spiff could just be confident, aggressive scum. Which would mean essentially picking on players until he finds one that catches on and turns into a big wagon. This is something I should look for when I ISO him -- whether it seems like he's actually trying to find scum or just trying to find a wagon that sticks. But for now I don't see anything that jumps out as scummy to me right now and spiff certainly doesn't match the type of scum I'm looking for.
-Silver: Silver's vote actually just seems like sheeping. I believe there was only one other person on the wagon at the time, but plenty of people had commented about ank's questions and all of it more or less fell into the same arguments FA and spiff made. Meanwhile silver throws this in amid the rest of the drama going on in the game. Not that there was a ton of content from ank, but...some of the stuff here just strikes me as a little odd. In #403, for instance, only her second mention of ank, all she says is "ankamius can also be scum." and this is just starting as people are starting to pay attention to ank. Fits the bill for possible opportunism. Again, silver's not really the type of player I'm looking for. But good to have these things noted.
-Moonlight: Moonlight actually starts out defending ank to Wisdom in #538. This post hits me badly for a couple reasons. First is the reasoning he uses. The first point starts off by suggesting ank is busy and then he goes so far as to come up with a kind of excuse for him, that maybe ank is intentionally lying low so the game quiets down and is easier to manage. Then moon assures wisdom that he wants to lynch scum. It just kind of seems like he's reaching for reasons to defend ank...and then in his next post, 86 posts and about 45 minutes later, he sheeps wisdom and votes ank. He acknowledges he's sheeping and proceeds to ask ank questions, but by #834 admits he doesn't really have a read on ank. When he switches to massive, it also looks like a sheep vote. This arc doesn't look great.
-Tri: His jump on ank is an admitted sheeping, though it looks like he did do a little digging of himself into ank's iso before making the vote. Doesn't seem like he ever really suspects ank. Don't really see much to be suspicious of here.
-ika: Admits he's sheeping his townreads onto ank. That's pretty consistent with him this game I believe. Pretty null imo, and ika doesn't fit either of the types of scum I'm looking for anyway.


Notes: moonlight looking worse, confused about wisdom's disappearance on ank.
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Post Post #2387 (isolation #30) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:49 am

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I feel that regardless of whether the cop claim is true, ABR's claim came from genuine frustration. I've seen him as both alignments and
tend
to think that he is more erratic as town. Has to do with taking a lot of pride in his scumhunting. This fits what I know about townAlbert. That doesn't necessarily mean the cop claim is true, but given the IC in the game I do think it would be worth it to keep him alive.

Peregrine, this is actually starting to bother me. IIRC you've voteparked me since like the very beginning of the game, and now you're pointing out all the reasons Kuroi is scummy, the wording of your most recent posts makes it seem like he's the scummiest player you see, and still you're on me. Can you like clarify a little here?
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Post Post #2394 (isolation #31) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:56 am

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rkvothe, for you it was much more the "reactionary" part than the "definitive statements" part. The reactionary bit was based largely on your early-game wagoning, in which you hopped from massive to silver to fa to jeanne and so on. I call that reactionary because it's voting based on relatively small things and switching with relative frequency (well...relative compared to normal mafia, not necessarily this game).
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Post Post #2396 (isolation #32) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:09 am

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I just explained what I meant by reactionary.
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Post Post #2398 (isolation #33) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:17 am

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All three of those were RVS?

Look if you really want me to I can go back and look deeper at your iso to better illustrate my point. But first can you tell me whether this actually matters or if you're just arguing semantics for the hell of it?
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Post Post #2401 (isolation #34) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:39 am

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A central component of that group, in my head, is that they all contributed to a lot of quick momentum shifts early in the game. That included wagons as well as just general suspicion. Wisdom and spiff were two of the biggest contributors to that, you contributed in a more minor way.
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Post Post #2402 (isolation #35) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:39 am

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not really a townread on rk
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Post Post #2435 (isolation #36) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:15 am

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PV, I've actually been pretty transparent about how I'm going about the game. See these posts:

#1686
#1711
#2104

1711 has my to-do list, which includes looking at massive's ISO as well as my own wagon. My style of scumhunting involves a lot of ISO and wagon analysis, which takes time, and the pace/size of this game means I've had a lot more to do in a short amount of time than I'm used to. But I'll get there. Right now my top suspect is probably Kuroi, but I'm going to wait until I've gotten through my to-do list before settling and focusing more on current stuff in the game. As I'm doing this I'm kind of just keeping up with what's going on and trying to respond when it's useful/warranted.
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Post Post #2479 (isolation #37) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:07 am

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ok I'm starting to see what's happening here. Peregrine, you're reading those posts all wrong. It's like you're trying to look at a painting by isolating individual squares and considering them one at a time. Take a step back, look at the whole thing.

I can respond to individual things -- and I might, since some of them seem to be isolated misinterpretations of wording/sentences instead of a misunderstanding of what I'm doing -- but probably the most useful thing I can say to you right now is that I'm using a big, multi-part analysis to try to find scum. I'm not certain of a whole lot right now because I'm not finished, and my plan is laid out in those posts.

I wasn't just asking because of your stagnant vote on me, though. I wanted to get a better idea of what you think of Kuroi, and why I'm a better vote right now than him.
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Post Post #2576 (isolation #38) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:49 pm

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shit i didn't realize just how far the massive wagon had gone. the massive iso is gonna be my first priority now.
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Post Post #2640 (isolation #39) » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:28 pm

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Spoiler: Massive ISO notes
-#304 is an artful sidestep of FA's question to be sure.
-#319 I originally read as town, like he had some sort of legitimate reason to not answer FA's question about ank. Like he was a mason with ank or something, or maybe had insight about ank due to an ongoing game he couldn't talk about. But now I know we have an IC which makes masons less likely and he hasn't mentioned anything about ongoing games, which he could have easily done. So I'm confused. Why not just answer the question? Giving reads for the sake of having them is definitely scummy, and that is the main reason I can think of for calling somebody town without having any reasoning behind it. This actually fits in with my "following scum" theory in an odd sort of way. He's not vote-hopping, but lots of people -- Wisdom and Spiff being the most visible examples -- were calling people town and scum without giving great explanations for why at the time. Massivescum might have thought he could get away with it? The town explanation would essentially just have to be massive not trying very hard, which...I mean, why wouldn't he just say it if that was why he didn't have reasons for the townread?
-#578 is kind of a weak justification for keeping his vote from RVS. He said Albert hadn't done anything to make him think he's town. But doesn't have a reason not to scumhunt?
-#1021 is indicative of a larger trend I see in this ISO: arguing with why other people are wrong without having any solid opinions of his own. He has no scumreads and the townreads he has he refuses to explain.
-In #1096 he says this is what he usually does, try to get townreads instead of scumreads. Which would be fine, except his townreads don't seem solid either. So this kind of seems instead like he's trying to play to his town meta.
-Justifies townreads on ank and PV in #1111 by basically just saying "meta."
-I think #1433 is the first real example in the ISO of massive scumhunting. And it's him taking a shallow dive into my ISO (all he talks about is my thoughts on Silver immediately looking to her early wagon for scum.) And he comes away not really seeming to have anything. Looks like he's trying to look busy.
-Switches vote to Wisdom in #1832 right after somebody observes that he still has his vote where it was in RVS (Albert). Doesn't give an explanation for the Wisdom vote. Oye.
-Explains his Wisdom vote in #2041 by basically saying it wasn't even a serious vote and he was doing it to make a point. Except he didn't really make that point...
-#2044 is him continuing to show that he is townhunting as he said is his process. But it's also another example of how weak that townhunting is. His townreads are TSO (who he said was a weak townread earlier), ank (who he said was a townread because of meta, then later said that his townread on ank was to elicit a response from ank, and ank didn't give that response, but I guess ank is still town), PV (don't remember an explanation for this one), Cheet (meta), Jeanne (IC), Kelbris (meta) and Moonlight (who he admits in the same post is weak).
-Xtoxm vote in #2352 is null. I see the town explanation for it (xtoxm has been lurking and then comes in to vote the easiest, biggest wagon) as much as I see the scum explanation (hey look, easy place to throw my vote because people have been criticizing me about my voting!)


Wow, I should have done this sooner. I've taken to a lot of fast-reading/skimming as a strategy for keeping up with this game, so I thought the scumreads on massive were mostly anchored in his initial spat with FA about refusing to give a townread on ank. Now that I look at it all in isolation, it looks bad.

It's not his townhunting instead of scumhunting approach to the game that's the problem here; it's the lack of actual townhunting and his way of insisting he's really working on it despite that lack of actual townhunting.

Like, this actually makes a lot of sense from a scum perspective. I can buy that massive has genuinely had trouble keeping up in this game, and it makes sense that as scum he would go through his normal process of townhunting instead of scumhunting, but because of the game's pace he's settled for the first townreads he could think of. Just so he has something to show he's in the game, but there's nothing genuine behind them.

At this point my top picks are Kuroi and massive. Not sure which one I want to lynch more, a night of sleep usually helps with that. I still want to finish my to-do list.
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Post Post #2776 (isolation #40) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:34 am

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In post 2640, toolenduso wrote:
Spoiler: Massive ISO notes
-#304 is an artful sidestep of FA's question to be sure.
-#319 I originally read as town, like he had some sort of legitimate reason to not answer FA's question about ank. Like he was a mason with ank or something, or maybe had insight about ank due to an ongoing game he couldn't talk about. But now I know we have an IC which makes masons less likely and he hasn't mentioned anything about ongoing games, which he could have easily done. So I'm confused. Why not just answer the question? Giving reads for the sake of having them is definitely scummy, and that is the main reason I can think of for calling somebody town without having any reasoning behind it. This actually fits in with my "following scum" theory in an odd sort of way. He's not vote-hopping, but lots of people -- Wisdom and Spiff being the most visible examples -- were calling people town and scum without giving great explanations for why at the time. Massivescum might have thought he could get away with it? The town explanation would essentially just have to be massive not trying very hard, which...I mean, why wouldn't he just say it if that was why he didn't have reasons for the townread?
-#578 is kind of a weak justification for keeping his vote from RVS. He said Albert hadn't done anything to make him think he's town. But doesn't have a reason not to scumhunt?
-#1021 is indicative of a larger trend I see in this ISO: arguing with why other people are wrong without having any solid opinions of his own. He has no scumreads and the townreads he has he refuses to explain.
-In #1096 he says this is what he usually does, try to get townreads instead of scumreads. Which would be fine, except his townreads don't seem solid either. So this kind of seems instead like he's trying to play to his town meta.
-Justifies townreads on ank and PV in #1111 by basically just saying "meta."
-I think #1433 is the first real example in the ISO of massive scumhunting. And it's him taking a shallow dive into my ISO (all he talks about is my thoughts on Silver immediately looking to her early wagon for scum.) And he comes away not really seeming to have anything. Looks like he's trying to look busy.
-Switches vote to Wisdom in #1832 right after somebody observes that he still has his vote where it was in RVS (Albert). Doesn't give an explanation for the Wisdom vote. Oye.
-Explains his Wisdom vote in #2041 by basically saying it wasn't even a serious vote and he was doing it to make a point. Except he didn't really make that point...
-#2044 is him continuing to show that he is townhunting as he said is his process. But it's also another example of how weak that townhunting is. His townreads are TSO (who he said was a weak townread earlier), ank (who he said was a townread because of meta, then later said that his townread on ank was to elicit a response from ank, and ank didn't give that response, but I guess ank is still town), PV (don't remember an explanation for this one), Cheet (meta), Jeanne (IC), Kelbris (meta) and Moonlight (who he admits in the same post is weak).
-Xtoxm vote in #2352 is null. I see the town explanation for it (xtoxm has been lurking and then comes in to vote the easiest, biggest wagon) as much as I see the scum explanation (hey look, easy place to throw my vote because people have been criticizing me about my voting!)


Wow, I should have done this sooner. I've taken to a lot of fast-reading/skimming as a strategy for keeping up with this game, so I thought the scumreads on massive were mostly anchored in his initial spat with FA about refusing to give a townread on ank. Now that I look at it all in isolation, it looks bad.

It's not his townhunting instead of scumhunting approach to the game that's the problem here; it's the lack of actual townhunting and his way of insisting he's really working on it despite that lack of actual townhunting.

Like, this actually makes a lot of sense from a scum perspective. I can buy that massive has genuinely had trouble keeping up in this game, and it makes sense that as scum he would go through his normal process of townhunting instead of scumhunting, but because of the game's pace he's settled for the first townreads he could think of. Just so he has something to show he's in the game, but there's nothing genuine behind them.

At this point my top picks are Kuroi and massive. Not sure which one I want to lynch more, a night of sleep usually helps with that. I still want to finish my to-do list.


Shiro, this is why I'm scumreading massive.
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Post Post #2779 (isolation #41) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:36 am

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I think Kuroi looks scummy af and am not sure who looks worse between him and massive. Also had one or two more things I wanted to do on my list.

Could do them during the night, I suppose. But I don't really see a reason to rush.

Massive should claim.
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Post Post #2782 (isolation #42) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:39 am

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:(

they make sense to me...
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Post Post #2813 (isolation #43) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:02 am

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In post 2811, Wisdom wrote:
In post 2807, T S O wrote:Kuroi, on the other hand, didn't have a fucking clue what his read on massive was. He seemed to want towncred, but couldn't form a townread on massive with any sort of coherence.

Which points to town, not scum.


Even if massive flips scum? Because Kuroi's attitude toward massive reads like stiff-arming partner imo.
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Post Post #2820 (isolation #44) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:06 am

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oh ok i see you were responding to tso saying massive will flip town. thought you were leaving out the "if" part
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Post Post #2835 (isolation #45) » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:24 am

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jesus tso. i mean i know you live in ireland but that word's a bigger deal in the u.s...

@albert: IC, frozen, spiff (paranoid on this one but still up there), cheetslot, and you're at the bottom of the townreads list. Kelb as well but I want to check on hated as a scum modifier first.
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Post Post #2876 (isolation #46) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:00 pm

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In post 2839, Elyse wrote:
Role PMWin Condition
You win when all members of the town are dead and at least one member of the mafia is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
[/area][/color]


^does this mean there is likely not a serial killer or second scum faction? Because it says when all members of the
town
are dead.
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Post Post #2922 (isolation #47) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:28 pm

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jesus kelbris there are more subtle ways to crumb
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Post Post #2923 (isolation #48) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:28 pm

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like why crumb and then highlight the crumb
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Post Post #2935 (isolation #49) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:37 pm

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Kelbris, why spiff?
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Post Post #2940 (isolation #50) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:59 pm

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VOTE: xtoxm

Three posts in this ISO. I want more.
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Post Post #2941 (isolation #51) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:14 pm

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Spoiler: The wagon on me
Going to focus on the flashwagon that built up on me and not hunt through the early game semi-isolated votes from people look Peregrine.

-Let's start at Elyse's VC in #800. The only person voting me is Peregrine. From there, Wisdom votes me in #1105 (switches to massive in #1165, then back to me in #1389, then to TSO in #1452), rkvothe in #1106 (switches to massive in #2337), cheet in #1204 (never unvotes me, nor does his replacement shiro), silver in #1392 (switches to ABR in #1519), Jeanne in #1393 (switches to massive in #1727), rando in #1401 (switches to ABR in #1726), Frozen in #1403 (switches to massive in #1713).
-As has been the case many times, Wisdom was the progenitor of this wagon. Though he seemed to suspect me from the beginning of the game, the impetus for his first vote on me appears to be the post where I suggested rkvothe could be scum asking about flavor so as to come up with a fake claim. This is about in line with Wisdom's reasoning for a lot of his other votes: person x says something Wisdom doesn't think makes sense, Wisdom votes person x. He kinda confbiases me for a bit as he's voting me, pulling snippets from what I post and giving little quips on why he thinks they're scummy. Here's the thing about trying to figure out whether Wisdom could be scum: if he's scum, he's had it really friggin easy this game so far. Because he clearly has a lot of influence and people keep following him around and while a lot of his stuff appears to be confbias, it's been consistent across the board. So it's tough to look at any one case of his and say "this looks scummy." Like they all look simultaneously scummy and towny. I suppose one thing about Wisdom I do find to be towny looking is his ADD-like approach to wagoning. He flits around from person to person, calling a player scummy and then towny and then scummy again. Which, if it came from scum, would have to come from scum really putting on a show in a deliberate way so as to confuse town. Which, I'll admit, I haven't played a lot of larges before, but in the games I'm used to I just feel like scum don't like to take that route. Most scum, I think, try to put themselves in a more comfortable position of controlling their reads and trying to sort of sneak stuff by the town. If Wisdom is scum he is very aggressive scum is what I'm saying, and I would give the edge to scum not being quite this aggressive. Anyway.
-rkvothe's vote comes right after wisdom's, but it's backed up with reasoning that came before Wisdom's vote. Basically rkvothe saw my case and didn't like it. Which is fine, and as I've said before, I do get that I was likely wrong about parts of it (namely the flavor claim part). But rkvothe's response comes off a little weird to me. After critiquing my case, he votes me (right after Wisdom) while admitting that he's going to read other people to see if he wants to vote for somebody else. He also says that his vote is omgus. It just feels like he doesn't really believe in the vote all that much -- this, coupled with the promise (which he follows up on) to look at other people in the game, followed by what I believe was an argument about the semantics of me calling rkvothe one of the "reactionary/definitive" crowd in this game (#1710), as well as rkvothe's explanation for switching from the silver bandwagon to FA (#1786), just comes across as nervous. Like he gets nervous about me voting him so he attacks my case and votes me to get pressure off me, while searching for other people in the game to redirect attention to. And the explanation for hopping off the silver bandwagon doesn't quite do it for me. The point of being on a bandwagon, especially early on imo, is to get reactions. Hopping off the bandwagon takes away pressure that helps elicit reactions, and the hop-off seems like he was nervous about that wagon -- either the prospect of it going through or about being associated with it. Nervousness generally comes across as scummy to me because it makes sense for scum, especially new scum, to be nervous about messing up.
-Cheet's vote on me appeared to have been primarily motivated by my response to the SW/ika/Jeanne drama, and a misunderstanding at that. Much like Cheet's replace-out, this appears genuine. I don't get the reasoning, but I see Cheet's belief that I was going about it the wrong way and I think that comes from a place of Cheet being quite upset at the drama driving the game. For scum, drama is often a good thing -- it allows for confusion and distraction and oftentimes a way to take advantage of easy prey. I don't see anything of alignment-determining value in Shiro's iso, he was basically trying to catch up through the end of the day.
-Silver's vote on me came just after wisdom switched back to me and was clearly situated amid momentum, but again that's just par for the course when it comes to Silver's play this game. Silver's switch to ABR is much more about Albert than it is about me, and in fact Silver doesn't say anything about me looking towny until about 200 posts later in #1708. Nothing too useful in here.
-Rando's vote on me, as well as his switch to Albert, fits with the rest of his ISO which is essentially following momentum.
-I came into Frozen's ISO thinking I had remembered a very natural-looking arc of suspicion on me, but it's actually a little weirder than that. Her first mention of me is her simply stating she doesn't like my posts in #264. She continues with mild suspicion on me for a while, even gently nudging people about townreading/nulltownreading me as the game goes on, but focusing more on other people. Then in #909 she says I make useless posts but I'm not all that scummy. Then in #1388 she says I'm her second scumread, then in #1403 (when she votes me) she says "let's wagon a scum." The timing of this is suspicious, basically her read on me sways back toward scum right as momentum is building against me.


Conclusions: Frozen's switch to me is somewhat suspect, and I feel like rkvothe is playing nervous.

Spoiler: The wagon on massive
I'm going to begin with the votecount in #1112. From the looks of it, the only person consistently voting massive before that was frozen. (note: skipping the part where I wanted to mark down unvotes/revotes because the day started early and I thought I would have like another three hours to do this)

-As of that VC the people voting massive were Frozen, Moonlight, Silver and Spiff. After that came Wisdom in #1165, Jeanne in #1727, Wisdom in #1730, ika in #1753, rkvothe in #2337, xtoxm in #2350, rando in #2527 and kelb in #2568.
-So Frozen was pretty much the most constant pusher of massive throughout the day IMO. She started pushing him as early as #303 and then didn't let up. I feel like her reasoning on massive was sound, no issue there. Honestly I was feeling yesterday like Frozen's push on massive looked very towny, she was keeping up pressure on him consistently but didn't have tunnel vision and she made some very good points. When I finally ISO's massive I wondered how it was I didn't see how scummy he looked earlier. So while it's possible she's scum, I can't really get anything about her alignment out of her being the main driver of the massive wagon all day.
-Moonlight kind of lets himself be persuaded into voting massive in #868. A lot of his posts about massive seem genuine enough, #2038 being a good example. #2639 seems very genuine for scum who know massive is not on their faction to me...yeah, moonlight looks better for his interactions with massive imo.
-Silver. It's interesting to note that Silver doesn't mention massive much in her ISO. She focuses more on other people. She's one of the earlier people to vote massive, but it's just with the "I'm good with the massive push" explanation in #961. Then in #2080 she says kuroi's reasoning for townreading massive isn't bad. #2765 makes it seem like Silver was never really all that convinced about massive being scum...I actually believe this all works in favor of Silver being town. Given the way she's gone about most of her reads in this thread, it's clear she's playing pretty aggressive. So why, if she was scum and knew massive wasn't on her faction, would she approach the wagon as halfheartedly as she did? Why not go full bore like Frozen?
-Spiff gets in on the massive wagon pretty early as well. First suspicion of massive is in #563 by the looks of it, for pretty much the same reasons as everybody else had by the end of the day. At a certain point, spiff pretty much dedicates his play to getting massive lynched, asking people one by one to help lynch him. The unvote in #2572 strikes me as town based on Spiff's consistent pushing of massive for like several hundred posts before that. If spiff were scum that would mean he was ignoring everybody else -- and then he unvotes so town has more time to look around? Just doesn't seem to fit with the scum explanation for spiff. Leaning town on spiff at least for his interactions with massive wagon.
-Wisdom also kind of lets himself be persuaded about massive being scum, because he has massive at nulltown in #592 and then says massive looks scummy in #875. By #1061 he has massive in his scumpile. He continues scumreading him, even pushing others to lynch massive, and eventually massive is his sole scumread by #1962. Now here's something kind of confusing. In #2078 and #2120, Wisdom thinks scumTSO is whiteknighting townMassive/posting like he knows massive is town. Nothing, nothing, nothing, then in #2278 Wisdom is back to voting massive. What gives? Why does he go from TSO is scum and massive is town to massive is scum? I don't see anything explaining the TSO thing and this is kind of weird...OK so in #2812 he mentions it again and apparently he still thinks it. I ask him about it and in #2816 he says he's talking about "if massive flips town." So Wisdom was saying TSO was whiteknighting, while wisdom was simultaneously pushing massive as scum. This feels little like having your cake and eating it too...then he comes into D2 voting drixx and xtoxm and not TSO. At this point I don't know what to make of this.
-ika hops onto the massive wagon acknowledging he's sheeping silver. K, he's done this a lot already so whatever. I don't really understand why he revotes massive in #1888 though. This was after he voted frozen, frozen struck some sort of nerve that had to do with depression and then frozen apologized profusely from it and ika stepped away for a while. So when ika comes back he quotes a post where frozen is asking him what he thinks of massive, and all ika does is switch from frozen to massive. Like I don't know how to make heads or tails of this. Then he doesn't mention massive for a while and then starts throwing his vote all over the place while expressing a general desire to lynch both ABR and massive. In #2772 ika votes massive and calls for a hammer. There's room in here for ika to be scum I think.
-Rkvothe's hop onto the massive wagon, as I noted in my analysis on my own wagon, comes after an awkward bit where rkvothe votes me but implies that he's looking for somebody else to vote, then hops onto the massive wagon while saying that he's sucking at the game and doesn't know where to look. Through the rest of the day from this point on, rkvothe doesn't have a ton of real content and some of it is just that semantics argument with me over whether he's been definitive and reactionary. Also room for rkvothe to be scum in here.
-Literally nothing to go on with xtoxm's ISO.
-Rando doesn't understand why people are scumreading massive in #943, which is the first time he mentions massive in 23 posts (not a huge amount considering the number of posts on d1). In #2002 says he will vote massive if people want to lynch massive. Says basically nothing about massive until #2527, when rando votes massive, then says massive and kuroi are buddies in #2560. This kinda comes out of left field given rando's lack of confidence on massive being scum earlier in the game. Switches to kuroi in #2687, then hammers ~120 posts later (two in rando's iso, ~6 hrs later IRL). Def room for scum with rando as well.
-Kelbris has no mention of massive before #2471 (he only had about 12 posts at that point), and says he's going to iso massive. Comes back in #2568 with a scumread and a vote on massive. The thing about this slot that's really keeping me back is the hated part. Like, would a mod ever make scum hated. Seems like a pretty awful handicap for a scum player to have. Aside from that there is room for Kelb to scum within his interaction with massive, but nothing I find to be terribly convincing.


Conclusions: Moonlight, silver and spiff all look more towny to me for their interactions with massive and the massive wagon. Rkvothe and Rando both have interactions with massive and his wagon that make me a little suspicious. Ika too, but less so. Have a question to ask wisdom about the TSO thing.
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Post Post #2942 (isolation #52) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:20 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Frozen:
What happened between this post:

In post 909, Frozen Angel wrote:Toolen make some useless posts TBH but not scummy that much


...and these two posts:

In post 1388, Frozen Angel wrote:Massive is 10 times pinging me more.

But Tool is my second scum read so I'm ok with this though
In post 1403, Frozen Angel wrote:lets wagon a scum :

VOTE: Tool


@Wisdom:
How did you reconcile the belief that TSO was scum talking about massive like TSO knew massive was town:

In post 2120, Wisdom wrote:It felt like T S O was posting like he knew massive is flipping town.


...and scumreading massive:

In post 2278, Wisdom wrote:VOTE: massive
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Post Post #2943 (isolation #53) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:23 pm

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Finally that's the end of my to-do list. Tomorrow I want to pull together notes from all the separate pieces, and in the meantime am looking forward to hearing from
Wisdom, Frozen and xtoxm
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Post Post #3178 (isolation #54) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:02 pm

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In post 2948, Frozen Angel wrote:I never stated I'm town reading you there. "not scummy that much" was a comparison between you and massive.


OK this makes sense. I read it as "tool is not very scummy looking," which is why I was confused that you came back and straight up called me scum not that much later. Thanks for clearing this up.

In post 2954, Wisdom wrote:
In post 2942, toolenduso wrote:@Wisdom: How did you reconcile the belief that TSO was scum talking about massive like TSO knew massive was town and scumreading massive

When I said the former I believed the former, when I said the latter I changed my mind. Reason? massive being scummy.


eh...fair enough I suppose.

Albert pointing to how right he was about Kuroi and massive is also townalbert play. Not sure about the claim thing and I feel like my setup spec knowledge has some gaps here...I get that rolecop is more often a scum role than town, but if he were scum then why not stick with his original cop claim?
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Post Post #3197 (isolation #55) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:14 pm

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Going back over all my notes together, I'm willing to give rando some townpoints because of the way he and Kuroi interacted with each other on D1 (this is assuming it is only one scum faction).

Moon I'm willing to leave alone for now.

That leaves rkvothe, and I feel like I don't have a lot of info on TSO or TWIE. So I'm going to ISO these three, especially now that I can look for associatives with Kuroi. I don't think any of them have been all that active so shouldn't take long.
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Post Post #3327 (isolation #56) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:13 pm

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ISO reads.

Spoiler: Ank/TWIE
-Votes: Frozen #26, Moon #249, Tri #770 (all were made as ank, TWIE hasn't voted)
-The criticism of ank, as I remember it, was that he was essentially just fluffposting. That holds up, when reading his ISO. He has questions, but they're not very deep and they don't seem to help him develop reads or anything like that. It fits with the "hiding under the noise" theory.
-He keeps asking for people's readslists and doesn't give any of his own. Example: #705.
-#756 is where ank says he's fallen behind in the game and is trying to catch up. Again, I don't see a whole lot of work going on here.
-Then he votes triforce for voting him. Like it seems like the laziest place to look because there was so much else going on in the game.
-Like I feel a little worried about this one because the ISO definitely looks scummy to me, but for a lot of the same reasons massive's did. Essentially ank just got on a path of defensiveness and I don't think he ever found a way off. But he did look like he was hiding under the noise, yes.
-TWIE is better, at least he's trying. But he doesn't seem to have gotten very far with his reads.
-Eh this slot looks bad but like null-bad.


Spoiler: TSO
-I've been scum with TSO enough times to know that he's frickin good at fake scumhunting. So while the early posts do look somewhat legit to me, I am going to actively discount that as valid evidence. I want to look for things more grounded in this ISO...
-TSO gives a possible townread on massive in #719 for reasons I don't understand. Restates that in #1338.
-He admits in a couple posts (see #1919) that he doesn't really have scumreads.
-TSO votes Ank in #1996.
-He gives his reasoning for massive-town in #2043 and it's about as deep as any of his other reads in this game. That's the thing, it seems like there isn't a ton of depth to any of TSO's reads. Normally I might find that scummy, but there's an explanation here. He admits that he's having a hard time figuring people out, he demonstrates distraction and anger with the drama going on, and eventually he gets kinda weird and sad and self-deprecating about everything (#2087). So I think that explains his attitude and lack of depth in this game as either alignment.
-Notably, he does push for a Kuroi lynch over a massive lynch in #2685 and votes Kuroi in #2686, and I don't think there was ever a point where Kuroi looked like a more likely lynch than massive. In #2791 he says he still wants to lynch Kuroi the next day (this was post-hammer). Eh...I guess I see the scum explanation here since I don't know that TSO had any other good options to push and had already made the case for townmassive.
-I walk away from this without a lot of conviction on TSO. I give him a weak townlean based on the Kuroi choice at the end of the day and, basically, my gut feeling about his self-deprecation arc on D1 (and the way it fits into his overall play that day).


Spoiler: rkvothe
-To recap the beginning of the game for rkvothe: he starts out with an RVS vote on massive in #6, then follows with a sheep on the superfast silver wagon in #17. He hops off to make a joke vote for frozen in #39. He later explains this (#1786) by saying his pressure was no longer needed on the silver wagon. The arc still feels a little weird to me because it seems like rkvothe got nervous about the silver wagon.
-His arc with me feels a little disingenuous too. As I've noted before, he approaches the vote acknowledging it's OMGUS and saying he's going to look for another place to put his vote. It comes at kind of an opportune moment because people were starting to criticize me for my case on him.
-The continued asking about me calling him reactionary was fluffy and ceased once I asked him whether he was just arguing semantics or if there was a point.
-Rkvothe is also a good candidate for "hiding under the noise."


I don't get the case on TSO and would appreciate it if somebody could point me to one.

I'm thinking rkvothe or TWIE would be a good lynch today.

still don't get the logic in lynching albert.
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Post Post #3347 (isolation #57) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:19 pm

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In post 3199, Wisdom wrote:
In post 3194, Albert B. Rampage wrote:he had a vengeful shot he could have used to kill me.

This just reminded me that kuroi definitely was being bussed, for the use of the vengeful.


shit you're right

In post 3299, Spiffeh wrote:Unfortunately Xtoxm acting like that is not alignment indicative and I'd prefer if he was vigged


ok I get the logic here.

VOTE: rkvothe
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Post Post #3351 (isolation #58) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:22 pm

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In post 3345, Wisdom wrote:Tool, I have repeatedly shown TSO's scum motivation in live time.


I don't know if you realize this bro but your ISO is literally three pages long and growing. Like it's tough to find anything in.

If you could summarize or like throw me some links or something then it would make it easier for me. Otherwise I'm gonna have to come back to it because I'm getting a little burnt out rn.

In post 3345, Wisdom wrote:Same for Albert.


afiak you have yet to address the question of why scum would modify their claim to something that sounds scummy

In post 3345, Wisdom wrote:Your lynch preferences are basically a newbie and a always scummy unreadable lurker, who might still be scum due to PoE, yes, but they are not priorities over Albert or TSO in any way.


But I'm not close to being convinced on either one of them. Like I'm trying to work with you here but I don't see why either is better than rkvothe or TWIE right now.
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Post Post #3357 (isolation #59) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:28 pm

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spiff likes the idea of rk as a wagon.

spiff probtown.

like spiff.

tool vote rk.

fuck why is this game so fractured. is this the way larges always are. guys i dont think im going to play a large again after this.

i need food
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Post Post #3362 (isolation #60) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:31 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3360, Wisdom wrote:
In post 3357, toolenduso wrote:spiff probtown.

Spiff was also cleared by kelbris if you missed it.


In post 2987, Wisdom wrote:Random thought: Scum have a "godfather" who's immune to the gunsmith, maybe Daenerys? (She doesn't fight, others fight for her)


lol
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Post Post #3579 (isolation #61) » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:25 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3351, toolenduso wrote:
In post 3345, Wisdom wrote:Same for Albert.


afiak you have yet to address the question of why scum would modify their claim to something that sounds scummy


wisdom could you address this plz

and do you think rkvothe is town or do you just think he's not a high priority for lynching? same question with twie actually
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Post Post #3587 (isolation #62) » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Post by toolenduso »

wisdom you didn't answer my first thing in 3579
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Post Post #3612 (isolation #63) » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:34 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3591, Wisdom wrote:
In post 3587, toolenduso wrote:wisdom you didn't answer my first thing in 3579

I don't know how ABR thinks


.......ok, well this is kind of a major sticking point with this wagon. like you want to lynch him because of his claim right? but you're not willing to explain why scum would make the claim?
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Post Post #3624 (isolation #64) » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:54 pm

Post by toolenduso »

ok then.

point: It doesn't make sense to me that scum would claim something that could be true (cop), then -- with nobody really believing the claim anyway -- modify it to something that he knows sounds scummy.

Counterpoint?
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Post Post #3877 (isolation #65) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:37 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Somebody asked for readslists a while ago. I like the brackets style.

{SW, RC, kelb, spiff*}
{FA, shiro, ABR, ika, drixx, moon}
{TSO, peregrine, xtoxm, wisdom**}
{TWIE, rando}
{rkvothe}

*need to do some work on this whole "godfather for gunsmiths thing." at any rate i'm not looking at him today.
**jesus it's insane that he's still in this pile despite the amount of posting. I need to find some way to sort this.
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Post Post #3878 (isolation #66) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3876, Elyse wrote:
rkvothe has picked up his prod but has not posted. If he does not post within 24 hours of sending the prod, I will search for a replacement.


this does not help rkvothe
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Post Post #3879 (isolation #67) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:41 pm

Post by toolenduso »

TSO what are your thoughts on rkvothe anyway? Sorry if I missed them, I can't find them after a cursory glance.
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Post Post #3880 (isolation #68) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:45 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Here's the thing. I kind of feel like if TSO is scum and we don't lynch him then we will p much know he's scum in the next day phase or two just based on the flips of people like rkvothe, xtoxm, maybe wisdom, maybe albert depending on night kills.

So unless there's serious interest in lynching TSO today from somebody other than wisdom I feel fine going after people who will help with TSO's alignment.
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Post Post #3881 (isolation #69) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:47 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3753, Randomnamechange wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: xtoxm
Can you flavour claim xtoxm?


Rando, why did you want this?
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Post Post #4140 (isolation #70) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:42 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Radja's posting is bad.

I want to try to slog through TSO and Wisdom during the weekend to see if i would feel comfortable lynching either one, but in the meantime I feel comfortable keeping my vote on Radja.

In post 4055, Radja wrote:
In post 1454, KuroiXHF wrote:Anyway... VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

This Tool lynch is a mafia-driven lynch if I've ever seen one.


counterwagon to save a scumbuddy?


This looks like Radja coming in and looking for the first thing he can find to have a reason to vote. In this instance I happen to know it implicates town -- myself. This is
exactly
what AP did in a game I was in recently, and it was like the only thing he did in the game that was scummy. He replaced in and as he was catching up he basically started scumreading people before he was fully caught up and it was because he just wanted to have a place to put his vote. And he hopped on like the easiest, most opportunistic thing he could find. Which is what Radja seems to be doing here: "let's look for the first associative I can spot with the only flipped scum."

Then he gets some pushback for it:

In post 4068, Radja wrote:
In post 4067, Spiffeh wrote:I'm not lynching tool though lol


why not?


And votes Wisdom instead:

In post 4073, Radja wrote:VOTE: Wisdom

Might as well start voting.

Why is tool town?


...for some shallow reasoning:

In post 4080, Radja wrote:I don't like his ATE, and his scumread on me one page into the game is pretty silly.

He also is perfectly positioned on the lynch wagon, being one of the earlier votes.


-part of it is OMGUS
-part of it is AtE, which is an easy buzzword
-part is wisdom's placement on the massive wagon, which...I don't know if I've heard somebody try to argue that the first people on a mislynch wagon are more likely to be scum before. The scummier places imo are the middle through the end, with the hammer not being quite as scummy depending on the situation.

So yeah, that plus the fact that he replaced into rkvothe's slot make me comfortable remaining here.
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Post Post #4143 (isolation #71) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:02 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 3903, Randomnamechange wrote:
In post 3881, toolenduso wrote:
In post 3753, Randomnamechange wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: xtoxm
Can you flavour claim xtoxm?
Rando, why did you want this?
I also am a sellsword and wanted to check he wasn't fakeclaiming.


ok i finally understand this. I thought for a moment that you had slipped knowledge that xtoxm was a sellsword by admitting that you knew he was one without having seen his previous claim post. forgot about the one later on where he said he was a sellsword but not who.

the wiki wrote:In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors)


this sucks.

still don't feel like spiff is scum, but this means I can't take my eye fully off him and god I wish I could right now.

In post 4137, kelbris wrote:I want to give him a chance to claim in case he turns out to be hated


Standard strategy when you're hated is to say it right away. rkvothe was a newb but with you saying you were hated I'm sure he would have too. Claiming (and giving him a chance to at least catch up a little bit -- I don't know if he'll be able to do 150+ pages before deadline tho) is a good reason to wait.
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Post Post #4144 (isolation #72) » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:06 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4143, toolenduso wrote:
the wiki wrote:In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors)


this sucks.

still don't feel like spiff is scum, but this means I can't take my eye fully off him and god I wish I could right now.

*fixed

@moon: no, that post def refers to wisdom. he talks about him being toward the beginning of the massive wagon, then shows the wagon on massive where wisdom was one of the first listed. Radja was talking about wisdom having a scumread on him (Radja) one page into the game (within one page of radja replacing in, that is)
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Post Post #4277 (isolation #73) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:08 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4269, Spiffeh wrote:The existence of a town gunsmith implies it

Since scum doc's would come back as not guilty to them


Actually yeah you're right, this plus the existence of a vig -- scum likely have some sort of protective role.

Here's the thing, is I don't understand why scumdrixx would come into the day softclaiming pr like that.

@Wisdom: I know this was a long time ago, but can you talk about why you made the following post?

In post 1839, Wisdom wrote:Btw on the topic of daytalk;

I just checked Elyse's only other modded theme game (Olympian Gods)

It was a Mini Theme, yet scum had daytalk in the form of an encryptor. Therefore, I think that if she gave daytalk to scum in a Mini Theme, they definitely have it here too, encryptor or otherwise.
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Post Post #4279 (isolation #74) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:14 am

Post by toolenduso »

don't think they were talking about daytalk though. I ctrl + f'd "day" on that page and like the previous three and you were the only person talking about it.
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Post Post #4281 (isolation #75) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:20 am

Post by toolenduso »

ohhhhhhh gotcha. ok thanks.
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Post Post #4294 (isolation #76) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:27 am

Post by toolenduso »

All right, finally made it through. Fun fact -- Wisdom has literally about 10 times the number of posts I do in this game.

Anyway, this is a big wall. So I thought I'd pull out what might be the most important couple of sentences to help explain where I am after doing this:

"Scum want to influence the game, and particularly confident scum can pull moves to deliberately try to lead town in the wrong direction, but what Wisdom is doing here is putting himself in a position to, basically, lord over the town. Like it never looks like he wants to influence town on one person. It looks like he wants town to follow him and only him. The scum explanation becomes very, very insidious when you take that into account and I have a harder time buying it."

Wisdom -> nulltown.

Spoiler: Wisdom
-Let's map out his voting first: Massive #7, SW #18, FA #36, Tri #182, Ank #293, Rando #871, Tool #1105, massive #1165, Tool #1389, TSO #1452, Massive #1730, TSO #2075, ABR #2157, Massive #2278 (End D1, begin D2), drixx #2843, xtoxm #2907, ABR #3150, Rkvothe #3641, Rkvothe #3767 (he had unvoted), TSO #3812, Radja #4081
-Wisdom's style is one of in-the-moment, gut-following, target-switching hunting. He switches his vote easily based on one post from a player. I see the scummy advantage in doing this and actively, admittedly playing to his town meta of not making cases. It allows him to divorce himself from reads as needed and allows him to chase whoever is necessary. I also see the town explanation for it, which is to keep his reads fresh and not overthink them or allow scum to manipulate him. So I want to look for which one of those motivations shines through more in his posting.
-I see a couple things to suggest the town explanation. One of them is the frequency of non-substantive posts. Interwoven with all the times Wisdom asks people questions, pushes for reactions, votes and makes notes of things he thinks are scummy, he answers questions about theory, posts -.- and responds to people's reads by essentially saying "you're wrong" without explaining why. It looks like Wisdom wanting to stay up-to-the-minute in the game, which suggests he is always looking at what every player is doing. And god knows he's interacted with every slot. It seems like he's trying to keep his reads fresh, in other words. If he were scum simply trying to keep himself out of hot water, I actually think that would make him more likely to sit back and let other people control the game a little more. That way he gets to agree with them and sheep people and note things that he thinks are scummy, but not necessarily put himself in the spotlight so much.
-Wisdom also does a lot of arguing about why other people's reads are wrong, criticizing both townreads and scumreads. It's a repetitive, eroding sort of action that aims to push people back toward neutral -- a good example is #417. Silver thinks spiff is fabricating a case on her, and Wisdom argues with her for several posts saying that Spiff is confbiasing and that town confbias. The wording does not say that spiff is town, it only works against the thought that he's scum -- pushing silver's read on spiff toward null. What purpose does this serve? Ultimately, it serves the purpose of setting Wisdom up as a leader, an influencer of momentum. If he can erode other people's reads while pushing his own through
very
frequent posting, it sets those people up to sheep wisdom in the absence of their previous reads. I lean more town than scum on this, and the reason is that I do think a natural tendency with scum is to not want a whole ton of attention paid toward them. Scum want to influence the game, and particularly confident scum can pull moves to deliberately try to lead town in the wrong direction, but what Wisdom is doing here is putting himself in a position to, basically, lord over the town. Like it never looks like he wants to influence town on one person. It looks like he wants town to follow him and only him. The scum explanation becomes very, very insidious when you take that into account and I have a harder time buying it.
-There are hints supporting the scum explanation as well. Early in D1, for example (I'll anchor it at #194), Wisdom pushes FA and then backtracks later on and says he didn't mean most of what he said when he was pushing her. That is a showcase of Wisdom's style allowing him to backtrack on reads as needed, and I know he's done it at other points in the game as well. This example is not very weighty so I will keep an eye out for others.
-I am also a little suspicious about the way Wisdom talks about himself at times. I'm going to add to this point as I go along but for now let's start with #471 where Wisdom talks about how he can imitate his town self. It shows an understanding of his own meta that comes back later in several places. In #671 he talks about how he doesn't make cases when he's town. In #1409 he talks about he, as town, will nail scum but town won't listen and then scum kill him and town doesn't listen to his reads after he's dead. It's like he's trying to subtly tell people he's town based on his meta so it would be dumb to consider him a possibility for scum.
-Another example of Wisdom's playstyle being convenient for a scum player is in Wisdom's respective arcs on massive and Kuroi. For a while on D1, Wisdom was scumreading Kuroi, but he never voted him. Then there was pressure on Kuroi and in #649 Wisdom decided Kuroi was looking towny and tries to get more people to vote ank with him -- this goes back to my initial curiosity on whether ank might have acted as a counterwagon to Kuroi, actually. Meanwhile Wisdom has massive as nulltown in his first readslist in #592, but agrees with FA that massive looks scummy in #875, votes massive about 300 posts later and ends up on the lynch wagon at the end of the day.
-
#1839 I remember being a little confused by and now I remember why. Wisdom is pulling Elyse's only other modded game as mod meta to support his argument that scum likely have day chat. I don't think this was prompted by anything so I have to assume it's in response to my point way back near the beginning of D1 when I suggested that rkvothe might be fishing around to get an idea on how to fakeclaim. At the time wisdom argued the point by just saying that scum usually have daychat in larges. Now he's fleshing out support for that argument by pulling Elyse's only other modded game, which is fairly weak support given that mods' setups will obviously change from game to game and it's only one modded game he's pulling from. I just don't really see why wisdom wanted to post this other than to shore up support for an argument long ago. The reason this looks suspicious to me is that back when Wisdom initially argued against my rkvothe point, I thought he might have slipped knowledge that scum had daychat. So now with him coming back later to add to the reasons why he, as town, would know that scum likely have daychat...it just seems kind of like he's preemptively defending himself.
All right wisdom cleared it up, ika brought up daychat like 200 posts earlier. OK that works for me.
-Wisdom's vote on ABR in #2157 is also confusing. It comes right after Wisom calls ABR's alignment "a coin flip" (#2141), and then constructs a meta-defense of ABR (#2150). He doesn't explain his reasoning for the vote, but ABR claims right after wisdom's vote and then wisdom uses the claim (not the claim itself, but the way in which ABR claimed, see #2193) as further evidence for ABR-scum. In #2335, after wisdom has switched his vote to massive, he tells people that town isn't lynching ABR that day.
-#2279 is some pretty good pushing of Kuroi. I know there's the whole scum would want to bus a vengeful goon thing, but still. This doesn't strike me as scum talking to a buddy...ugh, but then I just remembered that he never voted Kuroi, and still called him town through the end of the day. You know what, I think I was reading #2279 wrong, because Wisdom comes back and starts criticizing Kuroi again in #2421, #2423 and #2432. But between those three and the previous one it starts to look more like Wisdom trying to bring Kuroi around to voting on the massive wagon. So that fits with the whole "Wisdom trying to push everybody else's reads to null so they'll sheep him" theory. #2443 he comes back and actually threatens Kuroi with lynching, then later he tries to set up Kuroi as a buddy of massive's, which if wisdom were scum with Kuroi he would know that he wouldn't have to follow through on that after massive flipped town anyway, so...yeah.
-A pair of posts toward the end of D1, #2787 and #2796, also serve to heighten the amount of blatant manipulation I would be required to believe if I called Wisdom scum. They're all basically directing town on what to do after he gets NK'ed. As scum, this maneuver would be to get towncred ("scum would know they weren't getting NK'ed so they wouldn't leave instructions to town for what to do when they die"), but again it would be blatant, blatant manipulation. Not subtle, sneaky manipulation, which I find to be more likely to be scum.
-I honestly think that maybe the best way to read wisdom will be through going back through his readslists as we get more flips. If he is consistently wrong and consistently pushes town away from correct lynches and toward mislynches, that would be a good foundation for a wisdom wagon I think. But right now I see some good evidence for wisdom-town and some scraggly, less-convincing evidence that he could be scum.
-Things like #3182 I do want to keep an eye on with Wisdom because he's actually done this a lot in his ISO. Wisdom likes to read into the motivation behind people's actions by asking what he would do in their position. In this case it's wisdom saying "I brag as scum, therefore that's what scumAlbert is doing right now." As opposed to asking what scumAlbert or townAlbert would do. It shows up when wisdom uses the word "expect" as well. He keeps talking about what he would "expect" people to do as town or as scum, and it looks like it mostly boils down to what wisdom would do as town or as scum. It's a fallacious way of looking at things because it assumes that people would act like him, but it's well within the range of normal town behavior imo. What I want to keep an eye on is if that also works as a tool for wisdom to intentionally move in the wrong direction.
-The combo of #3360-#3364 is a weird one too (I keep finding these little things that keep the paranoia about wisdom alive for me. I think it's because he posts so much honestly.) I call spiff probtown, Wisdom points out the gunsmith "clear" and then I point out that it was wisdom who said the gunsmith's result doesn't necessarily clear somebody because of the possibility of there being a scum doc or traitor. Wisdom says he doesn't think spiff is either of those things, because....why? I don't really see any reason to think spiff wouldn't be those things, aside from generally townreading him.
-#3591 is annoying at the very least. I ask wisdom why scumAlbert would modify his claim from something towny to something scummy, and wisdom responds by saying he doesn't know how albert thinks. Which, like, a very big chunk of Wisdom's push on Albert is based on assumptions about the way Albert is thinking. He says Albert is fake-bragging about his reads on Kuroi and massive to come across as town. He speculates on why ABR would fakeclaim cop as scum. So this kinda adds to what is becoming a bit of a weird arc on ABR for Wisdom.
-I think Wisdom's prolonged push on TSO looks more like town than scum. I mean I would get Wisdom going for a mislynch if TSO is town, but trying this hard for this long? Just seems like a little too much when there would be so many other mislynches to try. Like there have been sooo many other wagons that have come and gone while Wisdom has pushed TSO.


Gonna do TSO next.
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Post Post #4543 (isolation #77) » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:01 am

Post by toolenduso »

@tso: are you still scumreading the ank/TWIE slot and why or why not?
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Post Post #4579 (isolation #78) » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:33 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Spoiler: TSO ISO notes
-TSO's voting: rkvothe #227, ankamius #1996, Kuroi #2686, (End D1, Begin D2) Xtoxm #3019
-Close to the beginning of the game, TSO leans on other people to develop reads. In #345 and #346 he asks spiff and cheet to lay out their reasoning for the other being scum, and his phrasing implies he might sheep one of them ("sell it to me"). This is in the context of TSO saying he doesn't really see anybody all that scummy (#343).
-TSO reiterates that he doesn't have any scumreads in #1342. This was amid the great silver-ika-Jeanne maelstrom in which TSO said he was having trouble keeping up with the game and considering replacing out.
-#1395 is unnecessarily antagonistic toward Wisdom. Like Wisdom switched away from TSO and TSO is still on Wisdom about it. Wisdom says this is TSO just trying to continually discredit Wisdom, but that doesn't really make sense here...if TSO was trying to save himself, why continue to hound Wisdom once Wisdom switches away? Mission accomplished for scumTSO, right? The thing is that I don't really have a town explanation for it other than TSO being pissed off at Wisdom. Because as I said, this post doesn't accomplish a whole lot. Like it presumes that Wisdom is wrong without really saying why and just seems like an attack. So I guess the town explanation is a ragey TSO, and the scum explanation would be, I suppose, TSO setting himself up as an opponent to Wisdom. Not the best strategy as scum, but certainly possible. Like a thread-clogging strategy. I've seen scum do that before -- hell, I've more or less done it before. I'll keep the two explanations in mind when looking at TSO's interactions with Wisdom.
-I'll note that at this point TSO doesn't have his vote on anybody (or still has it on rkvothe from RVS?). He's admitted he doesn't really have any scumreads, but still. He doesn't switch his vote for another 500 or so posts.
-Some of his remarks toward Wisdom seem to imply that he thinks Wisdom is scum, like in #1475 ("you know they suck too"), but he doesn't outright say it.
-In #1541 TSO appears to still not have scumreads, since all he lists are townreads. #1559 TSO actually says he has a townread on Wisdom. The thing is that he doesn't give reasoning for Wisdom being town, either. Note: #1559 actually clears up that #1475 wasn't TSO implying Wisdom was scum, because he gives a town explanation for Wisdom knowing that his points suck and pushing them anyway.
-#1565 also looks like TSO antagonizing Wisdom unnecessarily. Add that to #1395.
-#1891 he says ank's replace out looked somewhat town, not long before his vote on ank. When he does vote ank (#1996 and #1998) it's with the reasoning that ank didn't seem like he really cared about the answers to the questions he was asking. Fair enough, but this still fits in with TSO being scum -- he clogs the thread with Wisdom-fighting for a while, then looks around for an easy push and when he realizes momentum has died down on me he goes for ank.
-The town explanation for TSO, at this point, would appear to have to be that he was townhunting instead of scumhunting. He concluded that several people were town but wasn't having an easy time finding scum. Then he sort of throws his arms up and votes for a person who could be scum but he doesn't feel strongly about. Scum explanation is that for whatever reason he didn't actually want to push wisdom, but just wanted to use an argument with him to clog up the thread and instead went for an easy mislynch. He thought at first that I was the easy mislynch but it was too little too late because by the time he got around to me people were already moving off my wagon.
-Same goes for D2 actually, where TSO goes for xtoxm instead of the ank/TWIE slot. Wondering what happened with that read actually...ok his response in #4549 is fine.
-We can throw #3824 (and several other posts surrounding it, actually), to the pile of TSO unnecessarily antagonizing Wisdom. It's unnecessary because TSO has actually shown his reads earlier in the game. Like, we know they're there. But here he refuses to lay out his scumpool for Wisdom. Like, as scum it would be pretty dumb to outright refuse to give over your fake scumreads. It would mean that TSO couldn't even lift a finger to do one of the most basic things required of you as scum -- fake reads. And TSO is not that shitty a player. But that doesn't necessarily make him town here, no, all it means is that whether TSO's scumreads are fake or genuine, he is antagonizing Wisdom by refusing to hand them over.
-OK so #3941 and #3943 is where TSO finally calls wisdom scum. He says he hasn't been pushing Wisdom because he thinks it will cause blowback that could get him lynched and because it fits his scum meta to do so. At this point, the last post where TSO explicitly said Wisdom was town was in #1559 I believe, which was D1. Since then TSO has continued to engage Wisdom on his scumreads. In #3946 he attributes the switch to inconsistencies in Wisdom's ISO. So the town explanation is laid out, and the scum explanation would have to be TSO caving to Wisdom's pressure to call him scum. He does have reasoning behind the Wisdom scumread, and it's not awful (#3958).
-So here is the town explanation for TSO's posting this game as I see it: As town, he got caught off guard by the level of posting and all the fighting that happened D1. He couldn't find anybody he thought looked genuinely scummy and wound up having to defend himself against Wisdom and others, which might have further kept him from scumhunting. So he townhunts instead and eventually finds some people he thinks look bad enough to push. He eventually gets really, really frustrated with the pushes on him and starts fighting back.
-The scum explanation: TSO gets caught off guard by the posting and can't develop a readslist very easily. Eventually, accused of failing to scumhunt by Wisdom, TSO starts scumhunting and more or less hops onto the first scummy people he can find. He buses Kuroi over massive because his buddy (or buddies) is/are already pushing the massive wagon and if Kuroi goes through instead -- oh well, scum still get a vengeful shot out of it. He begins clogging up the thread with an argument with Wisdom, then eventually turns to scumreading Wisdom because Wisdom is accusing TSO of fighting him without any intent other than to make himself look like town.
-I lean toward the town explanation here. The motivations supporting the town explanation are consistent throughout his ISO, and there are a few things in the scum explanation that are harder to believe. The first is that TSO would unnecessarily antagonize Wisdom in an attempt to clog up the thread without forming a scumread on Wisdom until D2. Wisdom says this is because he was obvtown, but the truth is that momentum shifted quickly and easily on D1 from wagon to wagon. It wouldn't have been that crazy to think a wagon on wisdom could've worked. And TSO openly admitted that he didn't have scumreads at the time, so why not push a scumread on the person he's interacted the most with and whose reasoning he's criticized so much? The other thing is the setup of massive vs Kuroi on D1 and TSO's choice to go with Kuroi. Yes, there's the vengeful part, yes there's the possibility that scumTSO's partners were already pushing massive when he came out against the wagon, but one thing I do know about TSO's scumgame from playing on the same team as him multiple times is that he's not big on bussing. This isn't such a strong point, but it's there.


So basically I again feel a weak townlean on TSO, not as strong as my townlean on Wisdom. Main body of evidence comes down to his fighting with Wisdom. Don't feel like lynching TSO today, though with moving him from null to nulltown I am forced to admit that something is likely off with the scum side of my reads -- xtoxm has looked worse to me lately, but I kinda doubt he's scum with Radja. Flips would help me readjust. If there's a lull in game stuff then it might be nice to do some more ISOs of a few key players (pere, shiro, moon, rando), but I've already done a ton of work, we're coming into the homestretch before deadline and it would be nice to just keep up with the game for a bit now that I feel like I have a solid foothold in it.
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Post Post #4645 (isolation #79) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:20 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4612, Wisdom wrote:Where did you see him townhunting? Where does he post townreads?


He admits he's having a hard time scumreading people across the span of 1,000 posts (#343-#1342) and then he posts townreads in #1541.

In post 4612, Wisdom wrote:Where does he work with townreads?


It would take too long to list every example, so I'm just going to do a couple: #1517, #3313, #1535, #1959

In post 4612, Wisdom wrote:Where does he PoE out scum using his townreads?


He doesn't -- he gets to a point where he feels confident enough on a scumread to vote for it.

In post 4612, Wisdom wrote:You are saying that he focused on townhunting instead of scumhunting when he never did either. All he has done is antagonize me and push easy targets.


Are you being hyperbolic here? Because TSO has clearly done other things in this game.

In post 4613, Wisdom wrote:Oh and, you say that he started scumreading me because he eventually got really frustrated. So it's a coincidence that this happens the moment I start pointing out how he hasn't been scumreading me and how he hasn't got paranoid of me once?


This is one point in favor of him being scum. But it didn't happen quite as neatly as you say it here. You first criticize TSO for not coming out with a scumread on you D1 in #1563 (I'm actually not sure this is the first time you say it, either), and TSO doesn't scumread you until D2 in #3941.

In post 4619, Wisdom wrote:- Wisdom's read on xtoxm is a piece of crap and he's attempting to derail the xtoxm wagon.
I have explained in detail why each post of xtoxm was town in my eyes. I have explained how I see his claim as town, his frustration towards TSO as town, his apathy as town. TSO calls all this a piece of crap without even bothering to explain why or show why those arguments of mine are flawed (they have to be, if I'm xtoxm's buddy as he wants to imply, right?)


Dude, if I started scumreading people in this game for not explaining their reasoning there would be nobody left to call town.

In post 4619, Wisdom wrote:-He
(Wisdom)
called both Kuroi and massive scum d1, he outright refused to vote Kuroi. That doesn't make sense from town-Wisdom.
Yeah, that doesn't make sense. It's unthinkable that I got cold feet on Kuroi and wanted to lynch a more experienced, possibly more dangerous, scum first. Nevermind the fact that I was pushing and scumreading Kuroi for the whole D1, from the moment he started posting.


K but you weren't scumreading him for all of D1 though. See #1159.

In post 4619, Wisdom wrote:He has spent the whole game arguing I am bad town for suspecting him, but suddenly it makes no sense for that bad town to get cold feet on a scumread and lynch another scumread.


A decent point from the perspective of why TSO would think it. It's not like the argument is inherently flawed though -- it makes sense for scum to do that. My sense was that that point added on to some other things (see #3795, for example) to sway his read on you from town to scum.

In post 4619, Wisdom wrote:Explain to me why he didn't push/scumread me right when D2 began, if those above are genuine thoughts.


Because:

-He didn't have a scumread on you D1.
-Then he noted some things he thought looked scummy.
-And:

In post 3943, T S O wrote:I have been so wary of saying this because I'm aware he'll just jump on it and call me scum for being calculating or something, but I'm not. I know that most people are townreading Wisdom and I also know that scum-TSO's #1 tell is attacking people who call him scum and calling them scum. I don't have enough credibility to push him as scum yet, and it only harms me to do so, so I'm not.
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Post Post #4658 (isolation #80) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:42 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4646, SilverWolf wrote:Radja can die? It's been next to impossible to get his lynch through


This is true, and is part of the reason I keep pushing for it. Like people keep getting distracted from it and with a flip or two we may be able to look at
why
that's been happening.

In post 4647, Wisdom wrote:Yeah but I didn't make it that big a deal back then. While, look at the posts before 3941, I focused on that fact.


You were definitely pushing it. Here are more examples of you pushing this angle D1: #1415, #1422, #1483, #1485, #1543, #2088, #2129.

In post 4648, Wisdom wrote:The point is not that he's scum for not explaining. The point is that what you call "not awful" is awful.


All right so I was being a little cheeky in my response. Let's dig a little deeper. TSO called your read on xtoxm "shit" and he didn't explain why
in that post
. Earlier in TSO's posting, #3824 specifically, is where we find the place that explains why thinks your xtoxm read is shit. At the time you were saying xtoxm was town, and TSO was trying to get you to explain why, and it developed into this weird banter where he said he would give you his scumreads if you would give him your reasons for thinking xtoxm was town. TSO was trying to get you to explain your read on xtoxm because he saw an inconsistency in your read on xtoxm, which he points to in #3795.

So no, it's not awful reasoning. Do I agree with it? No. I've noticed several little discrepancies in your ISO and I've asked you about them multiple times in the game. But I've put in a ton of work going through your ISO and digging into your intentions and I think this basically just boils down to your playstyle -- you post more than anybody else in the game and you live in the moment. That opens you up to switching your focus around with some frequency, and that can mean forgetting things that happened in the past, or just changing your mind on them as you go along. But I don't necessarily expect TSO to see that because his vision of you has been colored by this prolonged exchange with you, whereas I have the benefit of looking at it from the outside in.

Onward!

In post 4649, Wisdom wrote:And this is town? "I am afraid to attack someone that might be dangerous scum because people will think I am scum"?


When I try to guess at the motivation behind the post I end up running around in circles in my head, which makes it null. Same reason his "let's do a 1v1 between myself and Wisdom" thing comes out to null for me as well.

In post 4650, Wisdom wrote:The town motivation in the above is that he's a weak player who thinks that everything they post is scummy and should stay silent and scumhunt from afar so that they don't become lynchbait to the manipulative scum.


The town explanation would be exactly as he states it -- he knows he's not that far from getting lynched and he doesn't want that to happen, so even while he scumreads you, he pushes toward other scumreads that won't backfire.

In post 4650, Wisdom wrote:The scum motivation in the above is that he's making up a reason for why he spent so much attacking me and accusing me without entertaining the possibility I could be scum.


Basically.

In post 4650, Wisdom wrote:Which is more likely, given that he's usually a town leader type of player?


See that's the thing, he's usually more of a leader type player whether he's town or scum. I haven't seen him like this as either alignment before, and I think it boils down to the pace of the game, the level of drama and him coming close to being lynched multiple times -- as either alignment, that makes sense to me.

As town, I'm sure TSO would want to lead town more. But he's been unable to this game, so instead he tries simply to get scum lynched without getting himself mislynched.

As scum, I'm also sure TSO would want to lead town more. But he's been unable to this game, so instead he tries simply to get town mislynched without getting himself lynched.

There are a couple things pushing me toward the town explanation, which I explained in #4579.

A point here: as scum, why does TSO unnecessarily antagonize and criticize you even after you stop pushing him? I noted three examples of this in my notes, #1395, #1565 and #3824. Why do all these things as scum? Why not just let you run free when you're paying attention to other players? Doesn't him continually poking you bring your attention -- and quite possibly the attention of other townies -- back to him?
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Post Post #4661 (isolation #81) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:47 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4659, T S O wrote:Why are you arguing with him, tool? The guy has no interest in listening to you.


Because: A) it's basically like peer review for my read in that it helps me test out the parts that work and the parts that don't; B) I don't think you're a good lynch today, and I don't share your pessimism on Wisdom listening to me; C) It will help other players understand anything I didn't explain or illustrate adequately.

In post 4660, SilverWolf wrote:I think we should stick with the Radja lynch.


Run tell that.
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Post Post #4665 (isolation #82) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:06 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4663, Wisdom wrote:In all three of these examples I was still calling him scum (and in the second one I was voting him too) so how have I "stopped pushing him"?


By "stopped pushing him" I didn't mean that you had dropped your scumread or called him town or anything like that. I simply meant that you were focusing elsewhere. Specifically I was talking about the first example, which was when you had switched your vote to me I believe. The other two examples I point out because he was attacking your reads on other people.

Wouldn't it make more sense for TSO, as scum, to simply discredit your read on him and let your other reads stand, so that you would go focus elsewhere? Or, when you start focusing elsewhere, to leave you alone so you keep pulling on those threads and get distracted?
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Post Post #4667 (isolation #83) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:19 am

Post by toolenduso »

Are you saying that he didn't do what you would expect him to do as town, or that he did what you would expect him to do as scum?
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Post Post #4672 (isolation #84) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:31 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4670, Wisdom wrote:I'd expect from neither to say nothing just because I moved my vote away.


Then this is where we disagree. This (or variations on this) is what I think scum would want to do. This allows them to get the pressure off their backs while letting you push a mislynch instead.
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Post Post #4675 (isolation #85) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:32 am

Post by toolenduso »

Quiet you, town is trying to work together.

@TWIE
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Post Post #4680 (isolation #86) » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:46 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4676, Wisdom wrote:Moonlight's and xtoxm's unison against Radja lynch is unnerving me, tbh


What do you make of it?
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Post Post #4879 (isolation #87) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:14 am

Post by toolenduso »

Yeah this claim happened at an odd time to be sure. And moon I am having trouble understanding a couple parts of your justification here:

In post 4796, Moonlight wrote:ABR, you probably don't realize it because you weren't part of my interaction with Wisdom. There was a pause in our back and forth. I weighed my options before asking him about him suspending his thoughts on TSO.


Does this have something to do with why you claimed?

In post 4802, Moonlight wrote:I have way too many targets to protect,
so picking the same as scum is tough
.

What does the bolded part mean? What does "the same" refer to? When you say "as scum," who are you saying is scum?

Rest of the post for reference:

In post 4802, Moonlight wrote:If they shoot me, great, you get back to TSO and I indirectly protected someone. If not, they gamble and have to paint me as scum the next day.


@Silver: weren't you saying at some point that there's usually five scum in larges? And if that is a safe assumption then we can assume max five scum power roles, whereas with town we have I think eight pr claims, three of which are confirmed and one of which is virtually confirmed. Idk so much about balancing number of prs against each other but I want to start thinking about it from this point.
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Post Post #4880 (isolation #88) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:15 am

Post by toolenduso »

Ah crap. Here it is fixed:

In post 4802, Moonlight wrote:I have way too many targets to protect,
so picking the same as scum is tough
.


What does the bolded part mean? What does "the same" refer to? When you say "as scum," who are you saying is scum?

Rest of the post for reference:

In post 4802, Moonlight wrote:If they shoot me, great, you get back to TSO and I indirectly protected someone. If not, they gamble and have to paint me as scum the next day.
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Post Post #4973 (isolation #89) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:29 am

Post by toolenduso »

just gonna spew my thoughts rn.

timing of drixx's claim (beginning of d2) made sense to me from a town perspective. moon's reasons for claiming and circumstances (low pressure, not a likely vig target) are weird and thought jumped into my head that maybe scum agreed to pull off some sorta gambit with moon's claim.

doc makes sense given multiple kills at night, def I can buy a scum RB to explain cakez kill. could be scum doc apparently....town has two other claimed investigatives aside from drixx on top of two masons and an ic. we know it's not role madness.

so it seems that if a town pr is lying it would most likely be in the investigatives, right? because now we have three claimed investigative abilities on top of three self-clearing roles. but why would it be drixx lying and not albert? kelbris's claim I believe.

need to go back and see why wisdom thinks radja is town.
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Post Post #4977 (isolation #90) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:32 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 4974, Spiffeh wrote:Why not wait for ABR to say something or claim results before outing these "results" and giving possible scum!ABR a chance to change his story?


ok this actually makes sense. didn't think about that. why didn't he push abr wagon?
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Post Post #5011 (isolation #91) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:11 am

Post by toolenduso »

OK spiff is right, drixx was kinda trying to push ABR-scum at the beginning of D2, but he never voted ABR. Here was his reasoning for not voting ABR:

In post 2892, Drixx wrote:Two reasons, in order of how much they influence:

1.) I don't use my vote like a bludgeon. When I think someone is scum or they refuse to respond and need pressure, that's time for a vote.

2.) I'd really like to know what Ika (and you?) were expecting for ABR to give results about, as well as see what ABR has to say about my statement.


Number two is fine, but number one, which drixx says is more influential, doesn't fit. Drixx says he will vote somebody he thinks is scum, and at this point he has a scumread on Albert and isn't voting anybody else:

In post 2868, Drixx wrote:Maybe the guy who kept lying right up until the end of the day is scum?


^this refers to ABR (see #2867)

no idea what vc is.

three days til deadline.

don't understand sudden wisdom wagon.
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Post Post #5029 (isolation #92) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:27 am

Post by toolenduso »

Unofficial vc (started with mod's last vc and amended it up until now)

Xtoxm - 1 - PeregrineV (L-9)
Radja - 4 - toolenduso, TheWayItEnds, randomidget, Moonlight (L-6)
T S O - 3 - Xtoxm, Shiro, kelbris (L-7)
Wisdom - 4 - Radja, Drixx, RadiantCowbells, Albert B. Rampage (L-6)
randomidget - 1 - T S O (L-9)
Drixx - 3 - Spiffeh, ika, SilverWolf (L-7)
Albert B. Rampage - 1 - Wisdom (L-9)

Not voting - 1 - Frozen Angel

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.
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Post Post #5032 (isolation #93) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:32 am

Post by toolenduso »

Want to hear wisdom out.

@RC: And just how do you expect to get confirmation that the vig has agreed to your terms? Like you can say you want it to happen but you're not going to get confirmation.
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Post Post #5044 (isolation #94) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:45 am

Post by toolenduso »

was going to vote drixx. now I'm not sure. my head is spinning a bit. feel like it would be best for me to come back to this later and reexamine.
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Post Post #5190 (isolation #95) » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:24 pm

Post by toolenduso »

VOTE: drixx

i likely won't have a lot of time friday and sat to focus on the game and the rest of today isn't looking great either. i will try my best to at least keep up. i see drixx-scum.
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Post Post #5291 (isolation #96) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:53 am

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at first glance rando's thing looks like a guilty on tso. kinda want to hear from wisdom actually, since he said he's a pr as well and there's a possibility he could shed some light on this.
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Post Post #5293 (isolation #97) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:02 am

Post by toolenduso »

ive read from day start. i saw gunsmith clear on you and that vig shot you and you didn't die and then you claimed bp. which with setup spec it's still possible for you to be scum.
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Post Post #5300 (isolation #98) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:17 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5294, T S O wrote:It's also entirely possible for me to be town. I would expect the "he
could
be scum so he MUST BE scum!" logic from randomidget and ika. I wouldn't expect it from you.


i was going to respond to this and then i realized that i shouldn't.

in a game i was in recently i accidentally said too much about something i shouldn't have and it ended up being a whole thing unnecessarily. so let me just say this right now: i am waiting for wisdom. i will not elaborate.
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Post Post #5331 (isolation #99) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:40 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5316, Spiffeh wrote:Anyway

I think Shiro has been skating by on Cheetory's townieness and is being overlooked. What little she has contributed doesn't make me feel good about that slot.

What are people's thoughts there?


I am one of the people who's basically been letting shiro skate by on cheet's townieness. I can take a look again. Was there anything you saw that looked particularly scummy?
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Post Post #5345 (isolation #100) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:22 am

Post by toolenduso »

Yep that's pretty much why I wanted to wait for wisdom.

I'm down with lynching TSO. Yeah, I see the possibility that he's town, but there are a
lot
of ways he could be scum. Wisdom, who I had a stronger townread on than TSO, tips the scale for me.

You can consider my vote being on TSO but I do think we should have certain players in here today -- xtoxm, radja, shiro come to mind.
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Post Post #5384 (isolation #101) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:28 am

Post by toolenduso »

peregrine no offense but did you read the last page before night? because it looked like drixx freaking slipped. like i can spell it out for you if you want but i don't understand why you think it was garbage.
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Post Post #5388 (isolation #102) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:49 am

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OK so first, we had the conundrum of having an IC and two masons (didn't know they were also lovers at the time), along with a claimed rolecop in albert, a claimed gunsmith in Kelbris and then a claimed tracker in drixx. That's a shitload of clearing power among town.

So that was the context of it. Then drixx posted this:

In post 5178, Drixx wrote:I also figured that if he
(Albert)
was scum and just playing to his meta of making fake claims, I might follow him to someone who got
role blocked or rolecopped
(both are scum roles in my mind although they get used as town roles on this site), or I could have gotten super lucky and tracked him to the body.


So drixx was saying that on N1 he decided to track albert to find out if albert was actually a roleblocker/rolecop. Trouble is, albert's claim on D1 was not roleblocker/rolecop:

In post 2161, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I am the cop.


He changed his claim to roleblocker/rolecop on D2:

In post 3143, Albert B. Rampage wrote:My real role is 2-shot torturer. I go out to torture people and get a rolecop on them plus a RB.


Therefore, it made no sense that drixx would follow albert N1 to confirm something that albert had not claimed yet. It looked like drixx was lying about being a tracker -- remember the context here, that it seemed like at least one of the investigative claims was lying -- and making up reasoning for why he tracked albert N1.

It looked like he slipped. Obviously we were wrong, but at the time it looked like a slip.
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Post Post #5399 (isolation #103) » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:08 pm

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Peregrine -- thoughts on TSO please?
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Post Post #5484 (isolation #104) » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:34 am

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Oh we already lynched TSO? Cool. Really wished Peregrine would have weighed in on him first but w/e.

In post 5413, ika wrote:liek to explain, when i saw the wagon on silver reach 7(?) i knew it was town so him wanting to rewagon it is shit.


Sorry -- you're arguing that you knew silver was town, so spiffeh should have thought the same way as you? And because he didn't he's scum? How does that make sense?

In post 5421, Xtoxm wrote:So why is it that scum fear the outed, universally townread gunsmith so little as to use neither a roleblock nor strongman on it, the latter of which we have strong evidence to believe exists?


Are you implying that scum know the sanity of the gunsmith?
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Post Post #5491 (isolation #105) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:28 pm

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In post 5488, ika wrote:its obvious they have redirectors now with tso flip


Agreed. Would like you to answer 5484 please.

Did associatives between TSO and selected players during the night. will post that pretty soon.
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Post Post #5495 (isolation #106) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:30 pm

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In post 5489, Wisdom wrote:How is that obvious exactly?


kelbris got a no gun result on tso, but tso flipped encryptor, which should have a gun. so imo the only possibilities are that kelbris is naive or scum have something to fuck with town's night actions.

p-edit: roleblock on rando or protection of tso could explain tso not dying, but it wouldn't explain the no gun result that kelbris got.
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Post Post #5500 (isolation #107) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:33 pm

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In post 5497, Wisdom wrote:kelbris flipped and wasn't naive. And again, this is not a bastard game.


so would you agree that a scum redirection role makes the most sense?

and not that this really matters, but would the mod reveal sanity upon a flip usually?

p-edit: k
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Post Post #5535 (isolation #108) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:18 pm

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TSO associatives. Excluding: Rando, Wisdom and kelbris

Spoiler: ika
ika->TSO:

-ika leans scum on TSO for meta reasons in #1579.
-ika sheeps silver into voting TSO in #2082. Unlike other times when he sheeped silver, he says he agrees with her.
-At the end of D2 ika calls for a lynch on kuroi or TSO on D2, that's in #2798.
-In #2825 he calls on cop to investigate TSO.
-In #3030 he calls on a vig to shoot TSO.
-Votes TSO as a sheep on silver in #3064 again.
-Votes him again in #4254.
-Asks kelbris to investigate TSO in #5203.
-Votes TSO again in #5265.
-This is actually making me paranoid because ika tried to influence town PR's decisions on TSO like, lots of times. Pretty much the entirety of ika's interactions with TSO don't read like a scum partner -- or if he is a partner, he was hard bussing. So that would essentially mean that ika and TSO agreed pre-game that ika would try to get town PRs to target TSO in the hopes that they could fuck with town night actions using a redirection-type role.
-The thing that doesn't fit here is what I know about TSO's scum game. He's good as scum and seems to take pride in it. So I find it hard to believe he would agree to a strategy that involves him potentially dying just so scum can fuck with town's night actions. He just always seemed more like the "play a good scum game" type than the "lolololol gambit" type of scum player.

TSO->ika:

-At first TSO mainly just asks a bunch of people what they think about ika, like silverwolf and albert.
-In #2827 TSO agrees with ika asking the cop to investigate him.
-TSO pushes albert away from ika in #3313.
-In #5204 he works with ika again to direct the vig shot.
-Holy crap this is actually making sense to me right now. ika and TSO working together to try to steer town PRs at night so scum could fuck with them. I feel like I need to sleep on this. It seems too crazy to be true. But I've never played with a redirection role before, nor have I played with ika.


note: I did ika's first, toward the beginning of the night. by the end of the night this conspiracy theory didn't seem as likely to me anymore.


Spoiler: FA
Frozen->TSO:

-Basically frozen does not address TSO much on D1. She interacts with him a little bit but nothing all that serious. In #1964 she has him at null.
-She keeps him at null on several readslists through #3649.
-She agress to reread TSO's ISO in #3900, then comes back and joins a wagon on him with no reason than that she wants to see what will happen in #3921.
-In #3935 she defends TSO against one of wisdom's arguments while simultaneously saying TSO is being inconsistent about lurkers, which concerns her.
-In #3965 she agrees with silver that one of TSO and wisdom is likely scum.
-When Frozen votes TSO in #5272 because of rando's pseudo-guilty, she is one of the first to do so.
-The early game lack of interaction with TSO, followed by the long stretch of null-reading and the sudden 180 onto his wagon, plus the weird post with wisdom all seem like possible partner moves. She does push him later in the game, but I suppose it was possible at that point that she was convinced TSO was going down and wanted to distance herself.

TSO->Frozen:

-I see absolutely nothing that stands out in TSO's ISO when it comes to interacting with Frozen. Like, there is some gentle pushing of her on D1 but other than that he basically only talks to her when she talks to him.


Spoiler: xtoxm
xtoxm->TSO:

-His first mention of TSO is #3026, which did look like a big overreaction to TSO's pressure. There are only two ways I see this happening between scumbuddies. The first is a designed bus, which OK, maybe, but why do it in this circumstance? Especially given that TSO wanted to be investigated. Second would be TSO basically deciding that xtoxm was dead weight and bussing xtoxm for town cred, then xtoxm gets pissy about it because they didn't agree on it beforehand.
-He calls for a vig on TSO in #3746. I'm now realizing that while it would make sense for scum to want a cop to investigate TSO (to mess with the result), it wouldn't make sense for them to want to sway the vig shot. Because that would lead to exactly what ended up happening: rando sees that TSO didn't die and realizes that TSO is scum.
-He pretty much continues to push TSO until he gets lynched.
-This isn't so much related to TSO, but #5351 does look suspect because xtoxm is basically asking kelbris to waste a shot AND let scum know exactly where he's going at night.

TSO->xtoxm:

-He basically ignores xtoxm until #3018 when he praises wisdom for voting xtoxm. Then TSO sheeps wisdom in the next post for xtoxm's vote on Albert. This was right near the beginning of D2, and I gotta say, it doesn't look like a designed bus to me. It looks more like TSO still didn't have anybody he could justify a vote on and so he sheeped Wisdom onto the first person he saw who looked votable. That could still fit the second explanation.
-In #3025 TSO calls for a vig shot on xtoxm. OK, this doesn't make sense as scum partners if they have redirection. They would want to know who the vig would be targeting, not split it between two members of the scum team. Or at the very least they would want to have one option outside the scumteam and one in. Having the vig choosing between two scum is not good. It fits in more with the designed bus theory, and that one doesn't look likely because of TSO's entrance into D2.
-TSO remains on xtoxm for a long, long time afterward. Pretty much through the end of the game. He keeps trying to get people to vote xtoxm. Don't know if I buy this as an unplanned bus, either, unless TSO had consigned himself to getting lynched. Feels more like TSO was going for misdirection, an excuse not to build cases on other people and a possible mislynch.


Spoiler: shiro
shiro->TSO:

-As cheet. Says TSO might be scum in #1383, other than that there's not a lot here.
-As shiro. In #3894, she says TSO is null but then gives a little meta notes that implies TSO isn't playing to his town meta. Defends him based on meta in #3928.
-Agrees with RC that the TSO wagon sucks in #4300 and then casts suspicion on the people pushing TSO.
-Continues defending TSO until #4610, when shiro scumreads TSO using textbook WIFOM logic ("TSO said x so we would think y").
-I don't follow the logic in #4618. Doesn't mean it isn't there, but still. If he's saying what I think he's saying this does not make sense as a reason to scumread TSO.
-He expands on the reasoning in #4620 but gets the timeline wrong (TSO didn't say he was scumreading Wisdom until D2; I can forgive shiro for not knowing that since he replaced in and both TSO and Wisdom had multiple-page ISOs at that point).
-This is a potential partner. Shiro does a lot of defending of TSO, even pushing for the people who were pushing him, and then comes in and does a total 180 on him and starts scumreading him with shallow, semi-borrowed reasoning.

TSO->shiro:

-As cheet, TSO interacts with this slot a lot. It's all pretty tame, TSO asking cheet to explain his reads, looking like he's trying to work with cheet and stuff. Nothing really alignment indicative until #1562 when TSO says he won't be able to sort cheet on D1. Not that this could be scum talking about town, but it is a convenient thing for one partner to say about another.
-TSO says cheet's replace out looked town in #1891.
-Then he more or less ignores shiro until #4653, when he gives a non-argument against shiro's sudden attack.
-The last thing he says about shiro is that he lists her as a secondary candidate for scum in #5324.


Spoiler: moon
moon->TSO:

-Given the possibility of redirector on scum I find it most likely that moon is telling the truth about his claim. I still see a possibility that he's scum and want to look through his interactions with TSO.
-#2143 is an analysis of TSO that doesn't really go anywhere. Actually pretty much everything moon said about TSO up to this post was kinda like that: he tries to say things about TSO and then admits he doesn't have much of a read on him.
-He continues to do this. #3847 is moon looking at wisdom and TSO's fighting and giving all the ways he could feel about it, and then not feeling anything about it.
-He turns around and votes TSO in #3875 for his previous inconsistencies on massive.
-Expands more on TSO in #4138.
-He carries on essentially having TSO at the top of his scum list (see #4596 for example) until TSO gets lynched. Longer than I think a scumbuddy would.

TSO->moon:

-TSO more or less ignores moon until he starts trying to convince moon to lynch xtoxm. And that much reads like scum trying to get town to sheep them (see #3853).
-In #5152 TSO tries to keep a lynch of moonlight on the table based on the role PM flavor thing. Again looks very much like scum talking about town.


Spoiler: spiff
spiff->TSO:

-Again, I find it more likely than not that spiff is town. But there is a possibility he's scum so associatives will help add evidence.
-#1690 is criticizing TSO for "fueling the fire" of the jeanne/ika/sw fight. I can see scum pushing their partners as scum, and I can see them treating their partners like town, but this falls somewhere in between those things and doesn't look partnery to me. It's antagonistic. #1554 is similar. #2618 too. And #2630, jeez.
-OK but then he comes out and says TSO looks town in #2634.
-Townreads TSO in #2874 after kuroi flips scum.
-Votes TSO in #4287 after wisdom's arguing. Goes back to townreading TSO pretty quickly (#4423).
-Defends TSO even after the randomidget thing up until TSO claims BP, then advocates for a TSO lynch. This also does not look at all like a partner to me.

TSO->spiff:

-Nothing really of note in here. He fuffles with spiff over some little things but never really pushes him or townreads him either. I might find it mildly suspicious if it weren't for everything else going on.


Spoiler: radja
radja->TSO:

-As rkvothe. Literally the only place TSO shows up in this ISO is in #212 when he lists TSO as null in his bigass readslist where most people are null.
-As Radja. Appears to be trying to distract town from the wisdom-TSO argument in #4103.
-Asks people to give him a case on TSO in #4157.
-Says TSO looks town because of his "tone" in #4429, and then says wisdom looks bad for pushing TSO. Except that he comes right back around and says wisdom looks like town too. Then he sheeps TSO onto xtoxm.

TSO->radja:

-Faffles around on my case on rkvothe in #1909 without saying much about how he's reading rkvothe.
-Leaves a door open to lynch rkvothe in #3745.
-Comes back in #4358 and says he wouldn't lynch Radja. Says that a couple more times before he's lynched.


Spoiler: abr
albert->TSO:

-Also feel as though albert's claim is more likely if scum could mess with results.
-Albert started defending TSO as town pretty early, beginning with #1499.
-In #3378 ABR votes xtoxm in response to a point from silver. It's right around the time TSO is pushing his case on xtoxm.
-Actually pretty much every mention of TSO in Albert's case is him defending TSO against pressure. ABR doesn't go into much detail on why; it all just kinda boils down to "TSO is town." But that's often how ABR does things, so.
-Seems a little too brazen for scumpartners.

TSO->albert:

-TSO tries to work with albert on some stuff like Kuroi and silver/ika. Says ABR is probtown in #1541.
-In #3237 TSO says albert needs to tell the truth about his claim. That looks way more like scum talking to town than scum talking to scum to me.
-It occurs to me now that Drixx's flip also adds evidence to Albert being town. Albert didn't go anywhere at night, and I think it would be more likely than not that any given scum player would've done
something
on N1 -- given the amount of town power we have confirmed or near-confirmed in the game, I would think at this point that most scum would have some kind of PR. And we've already had two PRs flip that don't do anything at night unless they're making the kill, so I would think the others would go somewhere. I guess he could still be a traitor, but yeah.


Spoiler: peregrine
peregrine->TSO:

-Really not a whole lot in here. He responds to some questions from TSO, asks TSO some questions. He setup specs a little. To be fair, Peregrine hasn't interacted with many players in the game besides me.
-One thing tangentially related to TSO is peregrine's thing about Drixx right before TSO got lynched. He basically came in saying that the lynch sucked and asking people to describe it just so he could argue with them about why drixx was lynched. It occurred to me while this was happening that it was kind of an odd thing to do. Drixx was already lynched, so it's not like he was saving Drixx's neck. My thought at the time was that it was peregrine's brand of scumhunting -- something like trying to find opportunistic scum on the wagon. The thing that was weird to me about it was that it was happening during the whole thing with rando and his pseudo-result on TSO. While peregrine was off trying to argue against a lynch that had already happened, here was a vig claim with a result suggesting scum and peregrine ignored it. TSO was on the Drixx lynch, and looked like scum because of rando's thing, so why was peregrine looking for more scum on the drixx lynch? I'm not sure of the scumpartner motivation here except to try to set up a mislynch after TSO's flip.

TSO->pere:

-TSO calls peregrine town for no reason in #719.
-Then he ignores peregrine for a really long time and comes back to list peregrine as one of four possible scum in #5324, right before he gets lynched.
-TSO clarifies in his next post that he thought peregrine was the vig and now he doesn't have any reason to townread him anymore. This one's kinda interesting...I figured peregrine was softing something with his entrance to D2 (the thing about having a dream about Triforce), and if that's what TSO is talking about then there are two possibilities here. The first is that TSO as scum simply misinterpreted that, and maybe scum blocked peregrine the next night thinking he was vig or something. The second would be that peregrine, as a partner to TSO, decided he was going to 1v1 and out the vig at some point, then things changed for scum and he decided not to.
-I'll mark this one as a possibility for partner.


Spoiler: TWIE
TWIE->TSO:

-As ank. This slot has literally one interaction with TSO (unless he responds to TSO without using his name, I'm ctrl + f'ing here.) And it's nothing, just answering a question.
-As TWIE. Wow this slot only has one more interaction with TSO, and it's even less substantial than ank's. He just says that wisdom and TSO have been arguing...

TSO->TWIE:

-As ank. TSO doesn't interact with the slot much except to say that his replace-out looked "kinda townish in its own way" (no further explanation) in #1891.
-Then he votes for ank in #1996 for admittedly shallow reasons (ank was being "passive"). This was amid pressure for TSO not having scumreads IIRC.
-As TWIE. TSO responds to a question from me in #4549 kinda sidestepping any insight into TWIE.
-He lists TWIE as being one possible scum just before getting lynched in #5324.
-TWIE is a possible partner. #4549 makes me think it more than anything else. My first thought on TSO voting ank was that it looked like TSO settling down on a townie as a safe vote so he could avoid questions about why he wasn't using his vote. But then I realized that with the slot vacant it would have also been safe to vote there if ank/TWIE was his partner. So that one kinda returns back to zero.


Summary:

-ika only fits as a TSO partner if I buy into a conspiracy theory. I lean against it because conspiracy theories have not served me well lately and because I kind of buy the argument that ika wouldn't be able to drag himself into manipulating silver as scum.
-FA could be a TSO partner.
-xtoxm doesn't look like a TSO partner.
-Shiro could be a TSO partner.
-Moon doesn't look like a TSO partner.
-Spiff doesn't look like a TSO partner.
-Radja could maybe be a TSO partner.
-ABR doesn't look like a TSO partner.
-Peregrine could maybe be a TSO partner.
-TWIE could be a TSO partner.

Possible TSO partners: FA, shiro, radja, peregrine and TWIE.

Ultimately this has wound up being more of an exercise in townhunting than scumhunting because there aren't that many scum left in the game, but it was particularly helpful with respect to xtoxm and people who have other reasons to seem like town (ABR, Moon, Spiff, probably ika).

Of the five in the possible partners pile, I think radja and TWIE would be my top candidates. I will wait for any results.
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Post Post #5538 (isolation #109) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:40 pm

Post by toolenduso »

gdi ika read the whole thing. including this:

In post 5535, toolenduso wrote:
note: I did ika's first, toward the beginning of the night. by the end of the night this conspiracy theory didn't seem as likely to me anymore.


...

-ika only fits as a TSO partner if I buy into a conspiracy theory. I lean against it because conspiracy theories have not served me well lately and because I kind of buy the argument that ika wouldn't be able to drag himself into manipulating silver as scum.


...and the part on spiff.

@wisdom: I'll go back and look at that part.
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Post Post #5539 (isolation #110) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:41 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5535, toolenduso wrote:-Radja could be a TSO partner.


fixed
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Post Post #5542 (isolation #111) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:43 pm

Post by toolenduso »

I didn't include you as a partner. wtf. it's right there I even quoted it. like.
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Post Post #5545 (isolation #112) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:48 pm

Post by toolenduso »

...ok there's no point in this conversation.
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Post Post #5573 (isolation #113) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:40 pm

Post by toolenduso »

@wisdom, wrt shiro: I don't see why shiro's turnaround on tso and subsequent whining looks town. the reasoning for the turnaround wasn't all that convincing to me and the whining you're talking about looks like only one post (correct me if I'm wrong) which looks somewhat lighthearted in nature -- still within a scum-bussing-a-partner scenario for me.

I could Lynch Radja or twie. No sense in doing it before we hear from rando and Albert.

Btw, on Albert I do feel that presence of a scum redirect ability means it makes more sense for town to have a lot of power roles. More for scum to fuck with right?
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Post Post #5625 (isolation #114) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:55 am

Post by toolenduso »

abr claimed roleblocker/rolecop, not jailkeeper.
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Post Post #5629 (isolation #115) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:08 am

Post by toolenduso »

Yeah, I know. But Albert has never claimed being a jailkeeper until now. His first claim was cop and his second was RB/rolecop.
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Post Post #5631 (isolation #116) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:14 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5586, Shiro wrote:What exactly did I borrow to scumread him.


Your #4620 is similar to Wisdom's arguments about TSO not scumreading him. That was what I was referring to.

In post 5586, Shiro wrote:I did a 180 because one of the main reasons of my townread on him crumbled.


Yeah, I was confused by this actually. Were you talking about this?

In post 4618, Shiro wrote:
In post 4617, Moonlight wrote:Spiffeh reads TSO's posts as Town frustration.


This is what I thought but based on the fact that he was sick of wisdom's tunnel. Now that he claims Wisdom is so dangerous he is willing to give his life for. Stuff doesn't add up.


Why didn't it make sense for townTSO to be sick of wisdom's tunnel, and be frustrated, but still think Wisdom was town, and then come back later and change his mind on Wisdom based on inconsistencies he thought he saw in wisdom's posts?

I know that's a lot of hypotheticals, but I'm trying to understand your thought process here because right now it just doesn't quite connect for me.

In post 5586, Shiro wrote:Add to that the fact that I really doubted town TSO would ever offer his life for a lynch like he did and voila.


Why wouldn't townTSO do that? I was reading it as him just feeling tired of the game.

In post 5586, Shiro wrote:I was defending TSO specifically on the fact that Wisdom point of "he says I am confbiasing, manipulating yet doesn't push nor scumread me "


I'll take your word for it when you say that this was your defense of TSO; I didn't note it when going through your ISO looking for mentions of him.

But I just want to make sure I'm understanding -- you're saying you thought TSO was town specifically because TSO was accusing wisdom of scummy behavior but didn't call wisdom scum?

In post 5586, Shiro wrote:When suddenly TSO comes and says Wisdom is most dangerous scum, OMG kill me then lynch him you bet I will 180.


Why would scum want to die first in that scenario? Wouldn't that exonerate Wisdom upon his flip?

I mean I know that's what scumTSO did, but I want to hear your thoughts from before TSO flipped.
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Post Post #5632 (isolation #117) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:17 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5630, Wisdom wrote:Then what do you make of that?


It's making me edgy. Part of the reason I felt ready to move past Albert as a possibility for scum after last night was because I felt like his role had been validated a little bit. And here he comes in mixing up his role.
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Post Post #5633 (isolation #118) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:23 am

Post by toolenduso »

Like it doesn't put him in the lynch pool for me today or anything but I'm trying to eliminate possibilities here. Albert are you changing your claim to JK, or what's going on?
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Post Post #5652 (isolation #119) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:05 am

Post by toolenduso »

k i've got a plan. I won't engage with ika about his read on me unless necessary, because it will be pointless and will clog up the thread.
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Post Post #5654 (isolation #120) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:16 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5642, Shiro wrote:Because TSO suddenly said he was scumreading wisdom since day 1 not because he got sick of tunneling.


I spent like the better part of a week examining wisdom's and tso's ISOs and I'm pretty confident TSO didn't scumread wisdom until D2.

In post 5642, Shiro wrote:Yes it had a lot to do with it. I felt TSO was understanding wisdom was town and because of his personality wouldn't let it go and argued back. It made sense for me that town TSO would do that to another town, when he said he was scumreading him it threw me off because it now made no sense whatsoever that he didn't truthfully try to push a lynch on him(especially adding that he thought he was teh most dangerous scum)


But it didn't make sense to you that townTSO would change his mind? Or is this because you thought TSO was trying to say he had been scumreading wisdom all along?
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Post Post #5683 (isolation #121) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:36 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5659, Shiro wrote:
In post 3958, T S O wrote:No. I didn't get my scumread of Wisdom from him attempting to derail the Xtoxm wagon, though it did reinforce my thoughts, since Wisdom's read on Xtoxm is a piece of crap. I got it from the way that, although he called both Kuroi and massive scum d1, he outright refused to vote Kuroi. That doesn't make sense from town-Wisdom. When the Kuroi wagon gained a slight bit of momentum, he went back and actually defended Kuroi to help stop him being lynched. And the reasoning he used was, again, utter rubbish - I am fairly sure I slaughtered it somewhere around that time. So, although he was scumreading both massive and Kuroi, he hardcore attacked one and hardcore defended the other. You can justify this as him being wrong, but I really don't think it is.


Here he said he was already scumreading wisdom from his day 1 play.


Jesus, how did I miss this.

Thanks for explaining Shiro.

VOTE: TWIE

I'm confused why rando's failed shot at ABR means ABR is scum. Rando revealed he was vig yesterday so scum knew that headed into night.

@Elyse: Would a town PR with limited shots lose a shot if JK'd at night? If RB'd?
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Post Post #5693 (isolation #122) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:18 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5689, Moonlight wrote:Can you point me to a possible Town motivation behind ABR's lie?


Lying about his shots? Yeah I see a town motivation behind that if that's his actual role. It gives scum the wrong info so they do the wrong thing at night. Do you see a scum motivation for it?

Lying about his claim? His initial claim was, apparently, to get out of hot water (though he claimed before L-1). He said he lied about his initial claim because his actual claim would look scummy.

In post 5689, Moonlight wrote:Do you think that he would give a blunt "ya" to Drixx's question without proper knowledge?


This is the post you're referring to, I'm guessing.

In post 3381, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
In post 3380, Drixx wrote:What made you want to rolecop TWIE? Did one of your shots get used up?


ya


And again, that would be the same motivation as lying about his shots -- to deliberately confuse scum about what to do at night.
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Post Post #5764 (isolation #123) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:39 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Good questions from moon, I want to add one more for Albert: Why did you claim rolecop/roleblocker instead of rolecop/jailkeeper on D2?
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Post Post #5845 (isolation #124) » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:18 pm

Post by toolenduso »

K I am actually thinking Albert might be scum. I could come up with town motivation for everything he's done role-wise up until now -- claimed to get out of hot water, OK, lied about being a cop because his actual role sounded scummy, OK, lied about his number of shots to mess with scum, OK. And on top of all that I could see Albert making up the role as town.

I am having a lot more trouble coming up with town motivation for Albert switching his claim from rolecop/roleblocker to rolecop/jailkeeper. What's the purpose here? I can't see it messing with scum. I can't see it benefiting town. And how am I supposed to buy JK/rolecop anyway? A JK is already a hybrid roleblock + protection, and he gets an investigation on top of all that?

I am actually wondering if scumAlbert slipped by writing the wrong thing about investigating me last night and is now trying to cover up for it by changing his role again.

In post 5775, Wisdom wrote:ika you're so big on setup spec. Tell me why the fuck a Seraph Knight is included when it's basically countered by everything and is completely useless.


OK I remembered that I was a seraph knight before, it was in my first game back on site in 2013 after a long hiatus. I went back to look at how the role was balanced. It was town's only protection but scum didn't have a ton of power in that game, just an encryptor and a watcher.

Perhaps more relevant than that is this post from that game:

In post 1234, Elyse wrote:Seraph knight is such a cool role omg I wish I had that.


Elyse thought the role was cool. I could see her bringing it back later as a mod for sure.

In post 5800, ika wrote:its relvant cus a 2-shot rolecop/jk combo is weak as hell in damn 21p game


Weak as hell? It's:

-a protection
-an investigation
-AND a roleblock

all rolled into one role. How is that weak?

In post 5834, ika wrote:or we can argue scum jailkeeper who targeted abr


Now you're saying that you buy that both town and scum have jailkeepers?

@Albert: I want you to answer my questions.
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Post Post #5942 (isolation #125) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:52 am

Post by toolenduso »

....this all ends in WIFOM for me, trying to think about possibilities here with Albert's claim. I can't justify voting him. If it helps anybody else, I will point you to this game and this post in particular. It was a semi-open setup and because of Albert's role he should have known that another player's claim was true. But he got his games mixed up and pushed the other player instead.

Let's just lynch TWIE guys.
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Post Post #5944 (isolation #126) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:17 am

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I thought you wanted TWIE lynched too?
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Post Post #5946 (isolation #127) » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:32 am

Post by toolenduso »

bleh
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Post Post #6090 (isolation #128) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:14 pm

Post by toolenduso »

ika:
SW
(#13),
Jeanne
(#44), Spiff (#380),
Jeanne
(#437), ank (#806),
ABR
(#963),
massive
(#1753), FA (#1800),
massive
(#1888),
TSO
(#2082),
ABR
(#2105),
ABR
(#2175), xtoxm (#2359),
ABR
(#2367),
massive
(#2460),
Kuroi
(#2603),
ABR
(#2652),
Kuroi
(#2719),
massive
(#2772),
Drixx
(#2844),
TSO
(#3064),
ABR
(#3148), rkvothe (#3663),
TSO
(#4254), radja (#4593),
Drixx
(#4916),
Drixx
(#4965)
ABR
(#5071),
Drixx
(#5078), Moon (#5119),
Drixx
(#5201),
tool
(#5230),
TSO
(#5265), Spiff (#5488), TWIE (#5555), Spiff (#5858)

Stats: total: 36, total unique: 14, scum: 6, town: 20, unflipped: 10, % town: 56%, % scum: 17%, unique % town: 43%, unique % scum: 14%

--

Wisdom:
Massive
(#7),
SW
(#18), FA (#36),
tri
(#182), ank (#293),
rando
(#871),
tool
(#1105),
massive
(#1165),
tool
(#1389),
TSO
(#1452),
massive
(#1730),
TSO
(#2075),
ABR
(#2157),
massive
(#2278),
drixx
(#2843), xtoxm (#2907),
ABR
(#3150), rkvothe (#3641), rkvothe (#3767),
TSO
(#3812), Radja (#4081),
TSO
(#4256), Radja (#4417), Moon (#4711),
Drixx
(#4763),
ABR
(#5020),
TSO
(#5137),
Drixx
(#5184),
TSO
(#5341), Radja (#5490),
ABR
(#5663),
ABR
(#5806), Radja (#5947),
ABR
(#6022)

Stats: total: 34, total unique: 13, scum: 6, town: 18, unflipped: 10, % town: 53%, % scum: 18%, unique % town: 54%, unique % scum: 8%

--

Moon:
SW
(#19),
Jeanne
(#222), ank (#624),
massive
(#868),
ABR
(#2140),
massive
(#2663),
tri
(#2953),
rando
(#2982),
ABR
(#3282), rkvothe (#3723),
TSO
(#3875), Radja (#4487),
TSO
(#4592), Radja (#4709),
TSO
(#5139),
Drixx
(#5195),
ABR
(#5255),
TSO
(#5441), Radja (#6006)

Stats: total: 19, total unique: 11, scum: 4, town: 10, unflipped: 5, % town: 53%, % scum: 21%, unique % town: 73%, unique % scum: 9%

--

Peregrine:
tool
(#136), Moon (#239),
tool
(#322), xtoxm (#3010), Radja (#5123),
Rando
(#5130),
ABR
(#5964)

Stats: total: 7, total unique: 6, scum: 0, town: 4, unflipped: 3, % town: 57%, % scum: 0%, unique % town: 50%, unique % scum: 0%

--

Radja:
massive
(#6),
SW
(#17), FA (#39),
Jeanne
(#131), FA (#156),
tool
(#1106),
massive
(#2337), Wisdom (#4073), xtoxm (#4429), Wisdom (#4479), Wisdom (#5233),
ABR
(#5592)

Stats: total: 12, total unique: 8, scum: 0, town: 6, unflipped: 6, % town: 50%, % scum: 0%, unique % town: 63%, unique % scum: 0%

--

Xtoxm:
massive
(#2350),
tri
(#2974),
ABR
(#2977),
TSO
(#3026), rkvothe (#3746),
TSO
(#4141),
TSO
(#5351), TWIE (#5559),
ABR
(#5645)

Stats: total: 9, total unique: 6, scum: 3, town: 4, unflipped: 2, % town: 44%, % scum: 33%, unique % town: 50%, unique % scum: 17%

--

FA: Wisdom (#10), ank (#296),
massive
(#310),
tool
(#1403),
massive
(#1713), spiff (#2905),
ABR
(#3187),
ABR
(#3201),
TSO
(#3921), Radja (#4493),
rando
(#4507), Moon (#4882),
Drixx
(#4975), Moon (#5116),
rando
(#5235),
TSO
(#5272),
ABR
(#5664)

Stats: total: 17, total unique: 11, scum: 2, town: 9, unflipped: 6, % town: 53%, % scum: 12%, unique % town: 46%, unique % scum: 9%

--

Shiro: FA (#132), Spiff (#196),
Kuroi
(#613),
tool
(#1204),
tri
(#2960),
TSO
(#4620),
TSO
(#5397),
ABR
(#5882)

Stats: total: 8, total unique: 7, scum: 3, town: 3, unflipped: 2, % town: 38%, % scum: 38%, unique % town: 43%, unique % scum: 29%

--

TWIE: FA (#26), Moon (#249),
tri
(#770), Radja (#4669)

Stats: total: 4, total unique: 4, scum: 0, town: 1, unflipped: 3, % town: 25%, % scum: 0%, unique % town: 25%, unique % scum: 0%

--

Spiff:
SW
(#9), ank (#449),
kelb
(#539), ank (#562),
massive
(#1068),
massive
(#2662),
tri
(#2846),
Drixx
(#2894),
tri
(#2897), rkvothe (#2986), FA (#3293), rkvothe (#3667),
Drixx
(#4222),
TSO
(#4287), Radja (#4418),
Drixx
(#4425), Radja (#4431), Moon (#4736),
Drixx
(#4917), Moon (#5155),
Drixx
(#5187), Shiro (#5224), Radja (#5509), TWIE (#5560), Radja (#5567),
ABR
(#5680),
ABR
(#5765)

Stats: total: 27, total unique: 12, scum: 1, town: 13, unflipped: 13, % town: 48%, % scum: 4%, unique % town: 50%, unique % scum: 8%

RANKS


Scumvotes: ika (6), wisdom (6), moon (4), xtoxm (3), shiro (3), FA (2), spiff (1), peregrine (0), radja (0), TWIE (0)
Townvotes: ika (20), wisdom (18), spiff (13), moon (10), FA (9), radja (6), peregrine (4), xtoxm (4), shiro (3), TWIE (1)
% town: peregrine (57%), ika (56%), wisdom (53%), moon (53%), FA (53%), radja (50%), spiff (48%), xtoxm (44%), shiro (38%), TWIE (25%)
% scum: shiro (38%), xtoxm (33%), TWIE (25%), moon (21%), wisdom (18%), ika (17%), FA (12%), spiff (4%), peregrine (0%), radja (0%)
Unique % town: moon (73%), radja (63%), wisdom (54%), peregrine (50%), xtoxm (50%), spiff (50%), FA (46%), ika (43%), shiro (43%), TWIE (25%)
Unique % scum: shiro (29%), xtoxm (17%), ika (14%), FA (9%), moon (9%), wisdom (8%), spiff (8%), peregrine (0%), radja (0%), TWIE (0%)

My takeaways


-xtoxm looks pretty good.
-So does Shiro.
-Peregrine is looking worse and worse the more I analyze this game.
-Radja continues to look bad.
-TWIE's numbers here are suspicious AF. Just look at how long he took between voting Triforce and Radja. Jesus.
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Post Post #6095 (isolation #129) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:19 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Spiff, shiro actually has one of the best voting records in the game right now. Not saying to let him off the hook or anything, but yeah.

And wisdom, I would like to hear why you turned around on Albert like that at the end of the day as well.

I don't really think massclaim is all that great an idea. We've had a lot of town power flip already, so we'd likely get a bunch of VT claims and that wouldn't necessarily help us find scum. It would, however, let scum know exactly what they have to worry about.
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Post Post #6106 (isolation #130) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:27 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6098, Spiffeh wrote:tool you also have to include Cheetory's votes if you're analyzing it like that


I did. All the slots that have been replaced I called by the name of the person that's replaced into that slot, but I included the votes from all people who were in that slot before.

Small sample size, yeah, I get it. It's not the most convincing evidence or anything. It works more for me because what shiro was saying yesterday about (his/her?) turnaround on TSO made sense to me, so that eroded my scumread. Then come to see that (his/her?) votes have been pretty accurate.

If you want to talk about sample size, I would direct you to TWIE's voting record.
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Post Post #6112 (isolation #131) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:32 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6107, Spiffeh wrote:Now who is scum disregarding all of this?


Disregarding what?

TWIE and Radja look scummiest to me. Peregrine could be third, outside chance on FA but I'd like to go back over my notes on her associatives with TSO.
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Post Post #6128 (isolation #132) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:03 pm

Post by toolenduso »

FA could be scum. I reread my notes on her interactions with TSO and they could definitely come from a partner. Her voting record is very middle-of-the-road.

The main thing for me when it comes to peregrine is what I noted in my TSO associatives where Peregine came into the thread after rando's pseudo-guilty on TSO and started challenging the drixx wagon.

P-edit: The ank/TWIE slot has been basically lurking the whole game, took 4000 posts to vote somebody other than a mason and the interactions with TSO (flipped encryptor) looked partner-y (see #5535 for my notes)
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Post Post #6134 (isolation #133) » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:11 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6131, Wisdom wrote:Isn't it kinda pointless with a Bus Driver and a JK though? And if it misses N1, it's gone.


I also posted mod meta supporting the claim. I was in a game with Elyse a couple years ago where she talked about how much she liked the seraph knight as a role.

I can do Radja today if people prefer him over TWIE, Radja still looks bad to me. I believe he's at L-3. I will wait to vote him so we can use the day more.
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Post Post #6288 (isolation #134) » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:58 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Could we consider TWIE as today's lynch instead? Anti doesn't want to lynch Radja, Wisdom does, but I think we all want to lynch TWIE.

Makes sense to me.

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Post Post #6290 (isolation #135) » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:06 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Like

I think you are town. And I think Anti is town. And you both are like strong leadery type players.

So if you could cooperate on TWIE

And he flips scum

I feel like it'd be a good time

That is my thought right now
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Post Post #6452 (isolation #136) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:51 am

Post by toolenduso »

Was traveling yesterday. I'm gonna try to get to this before the end of today. If not then tomorrow morning.
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Post Post #6477 (isolation #137) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:12 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Peregrine, are you saying Anti is scum?

And what are your thoughts on TWIE?
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Post Post #6479 (isolation #138) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by toolenduso »

I pretty much feel the same way as Spiffeh. With Radja flipping town it's very likely peregrine is scum, but TWIE is just the higher percentage chance here.

In my view the case against peregrine is:

-Bad voting record.
-Argued against the Drixx lynch while we were trying to lynch TSO for no apparent reason.
-Came in and put ABR at L-1 for no apparent reason.

And the case against TWIE:

-Bad voting record.
-Including not changing his vote for 4,000 posts.
-Constant lurking coupled with lack of substance when either member of the slot has posted.
-Lack of interaction with TSO.
-TSO sidestepped giving a read on TWIE.

VOTE: TWIE
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Post Post #6480 (isolation #139) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:37 pm

Post by toolenduso »

anti why do you want peregrine over TWIE today?
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Post Post #6511 (isolation #140) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:25 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6501, Antihero wrote:trouble is, i'm not seeing a world where twie manages to stave off the lynch indefinitely

i can't say the same for pv for reasons that should be getting increasingly obvious


If you remove TWIE from the game, who looks like a likelier lynch than peregrine? He's number two on my list anyway.
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Post Post #6521 (isolation #141) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:58 am

Post by toolenduso »

I just realized I don't know much about your reads, FA. You were voting PV but now you're saying it was PoE for you -- did PV not look the scummiest? And if so, who does and why did you vote PV over them?
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Post Post #6531 (isolation #142) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:13 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6511, toolenduso wrote:If you remove TWIE from the game, who looks like a likelier lynch than peregrine? He's number two on my list anyway.


anti^
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Post Post #6534 (isolation #143) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:37 pm

Post by toolenduso »

If spiff is off TWIE then I have very little hope of that wagon going through today.

But I want a couple things to happen before the day ends.

I'd like to hear back from FA on how her reads are changing.

And I'd like to hear why you think peregrine wouldn't be lynched tomorrow if we lynched TWIE today.
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Post Post #6537 (isolation #144) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:44 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6536, Antihero wrote:like... did you not see xtoxm's nk analysis point or my fight w/ wis and xtoxm yesterday?


The gamestate is not what it was then. There are fewer players, and we have one less very scummy-looking player in the game: Radja.

In post 6536, Antihero wrote:where's the hangup for you and why is that what you're pushing?


I want things to be stated before flips happen.

I want you to explain your reasoning.

Because one way to find scum is to find places where reasoning doesn't make sense.

When I look at that statement from you I see a gap in the logic. I am asking you to fill it. Like Shiro did when I was asking him about his turnaround on TSO.
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Post Post #6540 (isolation #145) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:57 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6539, Antihero wrote:i literally just explained my thought process and now it looks like you're trying to find a thread to pull


I don't understand what you're not understanding in my question. I am asking why, if we lynched TWIE today, you think peregrine wouldn't be the lynch tomorrow.

All you've talked about is the past. As far as I've seen you haven't talked about tomorrow.

Let's try this. I will make a statement and I want you tell my why it's wrong. Here it is: "TWIE and peregrine are the two scummiest-looking players in the game. Therefore, with all things equal, if we lynched TWIE today, peregrine would be the most likely lynch tomorrow."
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Post Post #6541 (isolation #146) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:08 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Like I want to lynch TWIE over peregrine today and you are making it not happen. So I want to be clear on why, or ask you to join me in lynching TWIE.
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Post Post #6543 (isolation #147) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:29 pm

Post by toolenduso »

fine. if we keep going we're gonna hit semantics. in fact we probably have already.

I'll wait for FA.
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Post Post #6552 (isolation #148) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:05 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Welp. Kinda was hoping they'd just kill me and I wouldn't have to figure this out. Because obviously I'm wrong about one of my townreads, and all of my reasons for those townreads I found to be pretty convincing.
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Post Post #6553 (isolation #149) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:06 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Gonna update the VCA and then go through my reasons for each read.

Still liking TWIE to lynch.
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Post Post #6554 (isolation #150) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:50 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Anti:
SW
(#13),
Jeanne
(#44), Spiff (#380),
Jeanne
(#437), ank (#806),
ABR
(#963),
massive
(#1753), FA (#1800),
massive
(#1888),
TSO
(#2082),
ABR
(#2105),
ABR
(#2175), xtoxm (#2359),
ABR
(#2367),
massive
(#2460),
Kuroi
(#2603),
ABR
(#2652),
Kuroi
(#2719),
massive
(#2772),
Drixx
(#2844),
TSO
(#3064),
ABR
(#3148),
rkvothe
(#3663),
TSO
(#4254),
radja
(#4593),
Drixx
(#4916),
Drixx
(#4965)
ABR
(#5071),
Drixx
(#5078),
Moon
(#5119),
Drixx
(#5201),
tool
(#5230),
TSO
(#5265), Spiff (#5488), TWIE (#5555), Spiff (#5858),
Peregrine
(#6142),
Radja
(#6341),
Peregrine
(#6348)

Stats: total: 39, total unique: 15, scum: 6, town: 26, unflipped: 7, % town: 67%, % scum: 15%, unique % town: 60%, unique % scum: 13%

--

Xtoxm:
massive
(#2350),
tri
(#2974),
ABR
(#2977),
TSO
(#3026),
rkvothe
(#3746),
TSO
(#4141),
TSO
(#5351), TWIE (#5559),
ABR
(#5645), TWIE (#6347),
Peregrine
(#6548)

Stats: total: 11, total unique: 7, scum: 3, town: 6, unflipped: 2, % town: 55%, % scum: 27%, unique % town: 71%, unique % scum: 14%

--

FA:
Wisdom
(#10), ank (#296),
massive
(#310),
tool
(#1403),
massive
(#1713), spiff (#2905),
ABR
(#3187),
ABR
(#3201),
TSO
(#3921),
Radja
(#4493),
rando
(#4507),
Moon
(#4882),
Drixx
(#4975),
Moon
(#5116),
rando
(#5235),
TSO
(#5272),
ABR
(#5664),
Radja
(#6321),
Peregrine
(#6384),
Peregrine
(#6510)

Stats: total: 20, total unique: 12, scum: 2, town: 16, unflipped: 2, % town: 80%, % scum: 10%, unique % town: 75%, unique % scum: 8%

--

Shiro: FA (#132), Spiff (#196),
Kuroi
(#613),
tool
(#1204),
tri
(#2960),
TSO
(#4620),
TSO
(#5397),
ABR
(#5882),
Radja
(#6088),
Peregrine
(#6453)

Stats: total: 10, total unique: 9, scum: 3, town: 5, unflipped: 2, % town: 50%, % scum: 30%, unique % town: 55%, unique % scum: 33%

--

TWIE: FA (#26),
Moon
(#249),
tri
(#770),
Radja
(#4669)

Stats: total: 4, total unique: 4, scum: 0, town: 3, unflipped: 1, % town: 75%, % scum: 0%, unique % town: 75%, unique % scum: 0%

--

Spiff:
SW
(#9), ank (#449),
kelb
(#539), ank (#562),
massive
(#1068),
massive
(#2662),
tri
(#2846),
Drixx
(#2894),
tri
(#2897),
rkvothe
(#2986), FA (#3293),
rkvothe
(#3667),
Drixx
(#4222),
TSO
(#4287),
Radja
(#4418),
Drixx
(#4425),
Radja
(#4431),
Moon
(#4736),
Drixx
(#4917),
Moon
(#5155),
Drixx
(#5187), Shiro (#5224),
Radja
(#5509), TWIE (#5560),
Radja
(#5567),
ABR
(#5680),
ABR
(#5765),
Radja
(#6036), TWIE (#6346),
Peregrine
(#6529)

Stats: total: 30, total unique: 13, scum: 1, town: 23, unflipped: 6, % town: 77%, % scum: 3%, unique % town: 69%, unique % scum: 8%

RANKS


Scumvotes: Anti (6), xtoxm (3), shiro (3), FA (2), spiff (1), TWIE (0)
Townvotes: Anti (26), spiff (23), FA (16), xtoxm (6), shiro (5), TWIE (3)
% town: FA (80%), spiff (77%), TWIE (75%), Anti (67%), xtoxm (55%), shiro (50%)
% scum: shiro (30%), xtoxm (27%), Anti (15%), FA (10%), spiff (3%), TWIE (0%)
Unique % town: TWIE (75%), FA (75%), xtoxm (71%), spiff (69%), Anti (60%), shiro (55%)
Unique % scum: shiro (33%), xtoxm (14%), Anti (13%), FA (8%), spiff (8%), TWIE (0%)

Eh, doesn't change much honestly. FA's town percentage went up. Maybe the biggest thing is that since I updated this, half of the people TWIE has voted for (read: two) have flipped town. Even more reason he's scum.
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Post Post #6559 (isolation #151) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:22 pm

Post by toolenduso »

So I compared the past two lynches and found that they were essentially the same people, just with FA swapped out for xtoxm:

In post 6343, Elyse wrote:
Final Votecount Day 5
Radja - 6 - Spiffeh, Wisdom, Shiro, Moonlight, Frozen Angel, Antihero (LYNCH)

In post 6549, Elyse wrote:
Final Votecount Day 6
PeregrineV - 5 - Antihero, Moonlight, Shiro, Spiffeh, Xtoxm (LYNCH)


And TWIE stayed off both. This means that if he's scum, he must have had at least one partner on each wagon. Assuming that TWIE is lynched and flips scum, it'd be better to come back to this and look at the votes in greater detail, but worth noting I think.

So now to reexamine my other reads.

FA did look scummy to me before, but the way she waffled around on the peregrine lynch does not seem like scum to me. Like it doesn't really make sense for scum to do that when peregrine was looking more and more like the day's lynch.

Spiff. I could buy the clear on him being fake, sure. But the main thing I'd have to get over to conclude that spiff was scum was his interactions with TSO. I would basically have to assume that Spiff was actually being a dick to his partner TSO with several of his posts in the game. Other things actually do look somewhat partnery, with TSO having very little interaction with spiff and spiff finding reasons to townread TSO amid the times he was suspicious of him. But yeah some of those posts in there just did not look like Spiff was talking to a scumpartner. He also came back and pushed the Peregrine wagon when he was originally going for TWIE.

Xtoxm is a possibility. His hammering of the peregrine wagon after townreading peregrine is scummy-looking. I would have to get over his interactions with TSO, the biggest sticking point being that xtoxm called on the vig to shoot TSO. If xtoxm were TSO's partner, he'd know what power roles they had and calling for a vig would basically be him saying "it's ok guys, we'll just protect TSO" or "we'll just redirect the vig shot." But that would ultimately be bad for the scum team because, as we saw, a failed vig shot looks suspicious af. The only explanation I see for all of this that would still allow for xtoxm being scum would be that xtoxm and the other scum simply didn't follow the logic through to its conclusion. That's not an easy explanation to buy.

Anti being scum would be a tough pill to swallow. Ika hard bussing TSO I could maybe, maybe buy, if ika's frustration with TSO was genuine -- that's possible given the temperament ika exhibited in this game. But ika also called on the vig to shoot TSO. So that boils down to the same argument as with xtoxm. Peregrine's points about Anti coming into the game and quickly concluding that he (peregrine) was scum aren't without merit.

That leaves Shiro. The only thing that made me start reconsidering Shiro was that he adequately explained his turnaround on TSO. But that doesn't make Shiro not scum, it just erodes my original arguments for why he is scum. I still don't see any great reasons to townread Shiro other than his voting record, which is only one piece of the puzzle. Shiro was on both the Radja and peregrine wagons, and in fact he played a somewhat important role in ending the peregrine wagon's stagnation.

So my top three picks for scum, in order, would be TWIE, shiro and spiff. After TWIE it basically becomes PoE.
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Post Post #6562 (isolation #152) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Post by toolenduso »

I mean, yeah, fair enough. But I'm having to scumhunt through people I really think look town right now. I have to up my skepticism in order for this game to make any sense.
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Post Post #6593 (isolation #153) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:25 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6580, Spiffeh wrote:If they're both town we're fucked anyway

So aren't we kinda forced to lynch between the two of them


explain?
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Post Post #6604 (isolation #154) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:41 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6600, Spiffeh wrote:Everyone has checked in and there's been no hammer

And FA is town

So Xtoxm has to be scum at this point


ah.

hm.

so this relies on FA being town. which...probably?

I also have a hard time seeing xtoxm scum. Mostly because of the vig thing.
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Post Post #6610 (isolation #155) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:47 am

Post by toolenduso »

this

In post 3746, Xtoxm wrote:Rk at L-2 huh. Why are we doing that? Clearing the empty slot to save finding replacement? Whatever, i'm not fussed. Just vig TSO.

VOTE: rkvothe


thought being, why would a partner to tso call on the vig to shoot tso?

now I just noticed this too:

In post 3776, Xtoxm wrote:(lynched or vigged, same thing)
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Post Post #6612 (isolation #156) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:50 am

Post by toolenduso »

my thought was that in order for xtoxm to be a partner to tso, he must have been thinking about some way to protect tso at night, up to and including redirecting the vig shot. which would mean xtoxm wasn't thinking fully about the consequences of a failed vig shot.
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Post Post #6613 (isolation #157) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:50 am

Post by toolenduso »

I'm not saying it's a clear, I'm trying to consider all sides to this.

The second post (3776) is making me wonder
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Post Post #6615 (isolation #158) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:51 am

Post by toolenduso »

the fact that twie hasn't voted looks bad for xtoxm to be sure. it's what twie did for his last two counterwagons.
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Post Post #6619 (isolation #159) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:53 am

Post by toolenduso »

wait you're saying they tried to get TWIE vigged by calling on the vig to shoot TSO?
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Post Post #6621 (isolation #160) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:54 am

Post by toolenduso »

I was talking to FA, not you.

And happy birthday spiff.
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Post Post #6626 (isolation #161) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:59 am

Post by toolenduso »

ok, well I guess there's nothing left to say. xtoxm is almost surely scum.

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Post Post #6629 (isolation #162) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:01 am

Post by toolenduso »

you're asking me why I'm not considering the possibility that I'm scum.

ok.
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Post Post #6632 (isolation #163) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:03 am

Post by toolenduso »

you funny.

you a funny guy.
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Post Post #6643 (isolation #164) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:29 am

Post by toolenduso »

I KNEW SPIFF WAS THE TRAITOR I KNEW IT I KNEW IT SPIFF OMG
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Post Post #6646 (isolation #165) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:31 am

Post by toolenduso »

oh man this game took way more effort than i'm used to
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Post Post #6655 (isolation #166) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:37 am

Post by toolenduso »

wisdom, you will note that I was paranoid about you being our traitor for a long time.

because you freaking nailed every member of the scum team that wasn't the spy in your first readslist.

like.
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Post Post #6658 (isolation #167) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:41 am

Post by toolenduso »

FA I really don't see much that I would have done differently as town in your position.
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Post Post #6671 (isolation #168) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:53 am

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TSO! Our scum streak continues!

Was sad to lose you for sure. I always enjoy playing with you.
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Post Post #6745 (isolation #169) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:04 am

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@TSO: I thought it was really town-sided for a long time. That started changing after the masons flipped as lovers. The one thing I still think was town-sided was that the commuter was even-night instead of like 1-shot or 2-shot max. And that's just because the commuter could've really, really fucked over the bus drive. I think I outlined it in the scum PT but my thoughts on a worst-case scenario single night phase were this:

-In order to ensure a kill, scum drives a partner with the commuter and then shoots the partner (in an attempt to kill the commuter).
-The commuter commutes. Because this resolves before the drive, scum shoot their own partner. Down to 4 scum.
-Vig shoots scum, scum die. Down to three scum.
-Torturer targets third scum. That scum gets lynched the next day. Down to two scum.

And it could even get worse than that if the gunsmith or tracker got a result on another scum. That could conceivably, within the span of two nights and two days, reduce the scum team to nothing but the traitor. Who wouldn't be able to kill and would face a very, very, very steep climb to victory.

The remarkable thing is how insanely lucky we got with our night actions. Pretty much everything that went wrong for us at night can be attributed to rando -- other than that, things broke our way. A decent amount of that was based on town PRs claiming, but even with the early claims we got very lucky (for instance, killing wisdom on a night when he couldn't commute.)

I still wouldn't consider myself all that great at designing games, though I feel I've become pretty good at setup spec as I'm playing them. But yeah, those were my thoughts on the setup.

I do want to couch all of this by saying that I think Elyse did a good job, especially given the bullshit surrounding parts of this game, and I commend your moderation.
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Post Post #6751 (isolation #170) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:06 am

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The flip side of the seraph is that if moon's protect had resolved on town, we wouldn't have been able to get around it with our bus drive. So it had potential to be fairly damaging for scum as well.

But I do want to note here that most of the time when the scum team gets to see several town PR claims early in the game, it winds up working very much in scum's favor.
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Post Post #6756 (isolation #171) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:10 am

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I have to say, the presence of the traitor I actually wound up enjoying a lot. It gave scum a lot of hesitation but that became fun for me eventually, having to narrow down possibilities. In a way the traitor can be a very big benefit from scum -- aside from giving a false negative to the gunsmith, it also forces scum to genuinely scumhunt. And genuinely scumhunting is one of the most valuable things scum can do for themselves.

Then there was the unexpected paradigm that came during LyLo where town assumed that scum would quickhammer a townie who had one vote on them -- normally that's true, but the presence of a traitor negates it.
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Post Post #6769 (isolation #172) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:23 am

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Wow this game was nearly two months long. I feel like I carried so much tension around with me because there was very little time in this game where I felt like we were going to win. Even toward the end there, I was worried that we would lynch TWIE and then go to a second LyLo where everyone would PoE me. Or that we would lynch Shiro and Shiro would end up being the spy.

So in a way just glad it's done. It was fun but ho boy this game. Ho boy.
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Post Post #6770 (isolation #173) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:24 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 5958, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
In post 5956, Spiffeh wrote:Why did you target tool N3?


Because hes a good player.


Oh and I didn't think it was a good idea to say anything at the time, but thank you for this Albert. You're on of my favorite players on site for sure so it's very nice to hear this.
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Post Post #6799 (isolation #174) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:15 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 6792, Moonlight wrote:Was my D2 night action claim a
terrible
idea?


In general I think it's a better idea not to claim unless you really need to (getting to L-1, having a definitive result on somebody, being able to add some valuable setup spec to the game), and I'm not sure how much you needed to claim something protective. It was better to claim the way you did, by just saying you were a protective and not saying exactly what kind of protective, than it would have been to say exactly what your role was.

So, in answer to your question, I don't think it was terrible, especially given that you'd already used your only "shot." I don't think it was the most destructive PR claim for town, either. But it did stir the pot on claims somewhat and in that sense I think it would have been better to keep it to yourself for longer.
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Post Post #6810 (isolation #175) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:26 am

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I didn't really have it narrowed down to the point where I was fairly confident it was Spiffeh until pretty close to the end of the game. IIRC it was when Spiff decided he could lynch Peregrine over TWIE. I was like "that is so good for scum I have a hard time believing spiff isn't our traitor."
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Post Post #6815 (isolation #176) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:34 am

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Oh and sorry to cheet if I was one of the people who made you feel like quitting. I know you said it was an aggregate thing, but still. My reaction to your criticism wrt the early game drama was half genuine and half me feeling like I needed to escape town pressure if scum was going to have any chance to win the game (at that point wisdom had called out 4/5 scum and a lot of other people were catching on as well). So I kinda sorta ate'd intentionally...

All that being said I did enjoy you being in the game while you were in it.
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Post Post #6837 (isolation #177) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:34 am

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And I'd like to say, even though TWIE ended up being the perpetual bussing target, that I do believe he helped us win. I think part of the reason he wasn't lynched during the like three or four days Spiff and I were trying to lynch him is because he simply didn't do anything that people could latch onto.

And I enjoyed playing with you while you were alive, Kuroi! I think I might have said something about the jokes but you did make me laugh once or twice and that's always nice in a game where things can get dramatic real fast.
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Post Post #6842 (isolation #178) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:05 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Maybe my shot resolved first? Either way, same result -- silver dies.

Also, fun fact: this thread has received nearly as many views as the mini normal queue.
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Post Post #6843 (isolation #179) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:06 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Oh you were thinking you should have protected Silver? I mean, your protection was already used at that point on TSO. I'm guessing the result that you protected silver was a typo.
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Post Post #6844 (isolation #180) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:08 pm

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Oh wait wait I know what happened.

Your protect was on TSO from N1, and because of the seraph it extended to N2. But the protection had already resolved, meaning it wouldn't extend to whoever we drove TSO with -- the protection stayed on TSO no matter what.

So the typo in that post is saying that you protected silver. You didn't, you protected TSO -- and my shot on TSO would have failed if we hadn't driven him with silver.

Whether rando's shot succeeded or failed doesn't really matter because either way silver gets shot.
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Post Post #6848 (isolation #181) » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:59 pm

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Hm, somehow I missed that. Can't really answer for Elyse, but I can say that my understanding of the way seraph knight worked was that it's really an action on the night you target somebody, and that after that it's just kind of a static, passive thing. Like you've just made the player bulletproof until you die.
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