Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because there are still things to be discussed before this day ends.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Why are you in such a hurry to end the day?

[Mastermind of Sin]

If anyone else has something to add, do it fast.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Quagmire

[Mastermind of Sin]

SV needs to answer my questions from Yesterday (top of page 77, I believe). I got distracted and ended the day without an answer from her.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gotta love the contribution from everyone else. I think Yaw and I should win by ourselves for actually being active

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOAT!

If that's something to celebrate...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am still suspicious of SV unless I get a good answer to my questions. From what I can remember, she just jumped on Quag without really providing any reasoning, just agreeing that he was scum and needed to die, so as not to be on the wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spectrumvoid:

Early in the game you said you felt Harry_Potter was suspicious, but I'm not seeing a reasoning for it. Would you care to extrapolate on why you felt H_P (not Quagmire) was suspicious? The only thing I've found so far is lurking, but that reasoning came well after you originally said you felt he was scummy.

Later you defend MMoD (not ThAdmiral) by saying that you think lurking is possibly scummy, but not definitely, and FoS the people who are voting him for lurking. What caused your change in stance between H_P's lurking and MMoD's lurking?

Then a few posts later you say that you're going after Pooky for lurking. Why did you change your mind once again?

You claimed Roleblocker and having blocked Mathcam. You then voted for him, but unvoted, saying you believed his claim. However, a few posts later you put him at lynch -1 saying "Since I'm the roleblocker who first brought it up, I'll follow this wagon." Can you explain your actions regarding this? Also, why did you say that you blocked Coron for pushing the Mathcam wagon? Considering that you yourself gave evidence against Mathcam and supported his lynch, I don't see why you claimed suspicion of Coron. Please explain this.

Quoted for reference, I got to go watch Pirates 3 now

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was suspecting Quagmire, hence I switched him out and asked STD to verify his office. Well, but I was also suspecting STD at that time.

You are avoiding the question. You have not answered why you suspected Harry_Potter, before he was replaced by Quagmire.

On may 02, I first voted quagmire. I also repeated it on may 12 and june 5 though I admit with little explanation.

Indeed.

I really cannot remember what I was thinking about lurking. That sounds like a cop-out answer, but it's true. I will attempt to jog my memory by looking through my notes on monday, but I don't think I noted anything.

I see...please try.

Because I felt it would be hypocritical of me to have brought the issue up and not vote him for it. An analogy: Say I claim cop with a guilty investigation on someone. Someone claims he's a (some role that is guilty to investigations even though he's innocent that I can't remember now). I will still vote for him.

Understandable, but why did you unvote him in the first place?

(you were referring to the Miller role, by the way)

I blocked Coron because he pushed the wagon on an innocent. I'm naturally suspicious of the biggest wagoner when the person who gets lynched turned out innocent.

Why are you most suspicious of a person who pushed a bandwagon you agreed with? If Quagmire had come up town, would you have attacked Thok and I over everyone else? This doesn't make a lot of sense. Just because he was protown doesn't mean that he wasn't scummy or that the wagon wasn't justified. If you yourself agreed with the wagon at the time, I don't see how you can block him for pushing the bandwagon you thought was on scum until after the fact.

[Mastermind of Sin]

SV needs to post soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

See, here's the thing, ThAdmiral. Scum try to make the day last longer to try and look protown, because that's the protown thing to do. The problem is, there are protown players who try to get a short day, and that's not helpful to the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where is SV? I thought she was supposed to be back by now...I'd really like some answers by the time MoS-Faire rolls around.

[Mastermind of Sin]

More to come during or after MoS-Faire.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm back, should be able to post tonight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@STD: I'm really liking an SV lynch right now. I SV is protown, though, I'm not sure which of Coron and ThAdmiral would be scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I found my notes, and I took a quick skim over the thread.

I was first suspicious of Harry_Potter because he posted directly after someone had called him a lurker (uraj). I thought that was suspicious because he was obviously trying to evade the lurker suspicion. Also, he had posted in other games. This was different from other people who were inactive at that time, who were not posting generallly on the site.

When I unvoted mathcam, I did say that it was an 'unvote for now' because I wanted to give myself time to read 55 pages. I also did mention that while I believed his claim, it doesn't mean I believe his town.

If I push a wagon on an innocent, suspicion will naturally fall on me tomorrow. Basically, when an innocent gets lynched, suspicion falls on the biggest pushers of the wagon. I'm not getting why you think I shouldn't have blocked the wagon pusher.

It doesn't make sense for those who strongly agreed with the wagon to be suspicious of the wagon pusher. You could arguably have been as much of a wagon pusher as Coron, considering that you gave evidence against Mathcam to help get him lynched. It makes no sense for you to have suspected Coron based on the fact that he helped lynch Mathcam.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also,

Vote: Spectrumvoid

[Mastermind of Sin]

Prod Coron, ThAdmiral, and STD

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you find him ridiculously scummy?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree with all of that.

unvote

Now I have to reconsider. Coron, do you have any reason to think SV is less scummy than ThAdmiral? I haven't seen you say much about her or STD, that I can recall.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You might as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aaaaaannnnddddd the thread dies.

[Mastermind of Sin]

cmon people, I can't do this alone.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Indeed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Says the guy who has lurked half the game. Coron, I've actually been contributing to this game, so I deserve to get a few short posts in now. I'm long overdue compared to most of us. I'm waiting for STD to chip in while I think about whether ThAdmiral or SV is scummier.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Says the guy who has lurked half the game. Coron, I've actually been contributing to this game, so I deserve to get a few short posts in now. I'm long overdue compared to most of us. I'm waiting for STD to chip in while I think about whether ThAdmiral or SV is scummier. What are

you

doing?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Again I ask: What you

you

doing? All I see is you berating me for telling people to post and contribute instead of just letting the thread die without anyone posting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My point MoS, is that if you're not doing anything how does it make sense to say "I can't do this alone"? The last content at that point was actually not by you at all.

In fact on this page I think you are maybe the third to top in total content, maybe 4th or 5th depending on spectrum and whether you count the mod.

You're avoiding the question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think there is any reason to believe I'm protown, at least in the way of claims, investigations, etc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still don't know what to make of the fact that SV

admits

that she had very little reasoning behind her Quagmire vote. ThAdmiral has seemed like the "obvious" choice to me, and I'm always wary of that. However, he's still probably my second best guess as to who Quag's partner was. Coron's questioning of everything seems relatively protown, though I'm going to reread ThAdmiral's arguments against him. I seem to recall that STD answered my questions about him rather well, so he's in my protown camp at the moment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to hear what STD has to say about Coron, Quagmire, MMoD, and Pooky (those four in particular).

MMoD is done.

Pooky's like a blip that appears every once in a while. My gut says that he's not scum, but I don't trust my gut too much.

I like Coron as well. I think his scumhunting, although it might not be accurate, is not completely baseless, even if he does not give his reasons. I could still just as well see him as scum, but right now I'm not leaning that way.

Quagmire just wants to kill you. That's all there is to him. I'm not particularly liking that at the moment.

I'm going to back and try to figure out why I asked you this question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Half of it is vibey, half of it is fact. Usually the kill lists include dead weight and such.

Kill:

armlx = worthless
Uraj45 = interesting posts as of late
Coron = lurking
Fuldu = i'm voting you
Harry_Potter = not posting much
MrBuddyLee = could possibly be scum
mystery meat of doom = not helpful
PookyTheMagicalBear = not particularly helpful, appeals to emotion bothersome
mathcam = gettin' bad vibes on this one, dudes.
Oberon = not helpful

No kill:

ibaesha = seems sincere
Mastermind of Sin = seems sincere
Save The Dragons = trust me
spectrumvoid = the whole PM thing
Yosarian2 = signs point to town

Oh yeah, that's why. I think they were the living people left on your "kill" list, and I wanted to see how you felt about them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've explained who I feel is scum, and why. I'm just trying to take Coron's advice, but it seems that no one else is picking up the slack.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...do you have anything further to say about who you think is scum? That's about the only thing we have to discuss at this point of the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

SV, what about the way Coron is attacking ThAdmiral seems protown to you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm...I don't think that's a good reason to clear either of us at this late stage of the game. Vote stays.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think that is entirely correct. Coron did not post for about 5 days after SV said she found me protown for trying to bring up activity. However, since then, your theory does hold, and I believe part of the reason he did not post was because of MoS-Faire. The only anomaly is the 3 days between his return from MoS-Faire and his return to posting after being prodded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like STD to weigh in on this discussion. I understand he has a busy schedule, but he's not posting

at all

...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Back from Thespival

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Spectrumvoid

I still think she is the play for today. I can't decide which of Coron/ThAdmiral is scummier.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can we get a prod on ThAdmiral?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks

[Mastermind of Sin]

If we don't make deadline it'll be another worthless no lynch...

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

I wouldn't think either of you would be this rash, but please don't vote until we've had time to talk everything over, no matter how convinced you are that the person is scum. Everyone makes mistakes, and I don't want this to end in a quicklynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Please prod Coron

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I need to reread, but that needs to wait until after I am done with my last week of classes, most likely.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Might as well ask this while I'm thinking about it, even though I haven't had time to reread yet.

What suspicions did you have against STD that made you feel I was the most likely town instead of him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

rofl!

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll try to reread tomorrow, I'm finally home.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I really miss the view all posts function. I really need that right now...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I totally missed my tuesday deadline by 45 minutes, but let's just ignore that shall we.

About Ibby and MBL: I'm taking the side of Ibby. 'Nuf said.

I had an early suspicion of Yos in day 1, where it seemed like he was trying to derail viper wagon for mlaker. I also liked someone else's argument about when Yos voiced his question about items. Some said it was weak, but I find that a very interesting fact that works against him, since he claimed 'nilla town.

I really don't see why people aren't running up H_P since I think it was MOS, who brought up good points against him yesterday.

I need to collect my thoughts some more before placing a vote, but I'm most suspicious of HP, MBL and Yos atm, from what I remember from my read-through.

This is a point in favor of ThAdmiral being town.

@MoS: Logically I think quagmire's scumbuddy's are coron and thok, since they haven't voted him yet.

Quite simply if quagmire was town and there was a scum yet to vote they would just do it, right? (This would mean mafia win I believe)
That is unless all three mafia have already voted him, but I find that hard to believe since two of the people I most trust to be town (MoS, and STD) are ones voting.

More likely is that quagmire is scum and the people not voting yet are his scum-partners (except me, cause I'm ready to drop the hammer).

It is possible, however, that a mafiate jumped on the wagon thinking it was a lost cause, ready to throw their partner under a bus to look more pro-town. If this is the case I believe SV is scum and thok is town.

What led you to believe there were 5 total scum again? I forget the reasoning behind this.

Oh, right!

Sorry, I just got confused when I saw he only had two votes on him, but then I remembered mos unvoted him.

@Thok: seeing as you are trying to deduce who quagmire's scum partner is, do you have any lead suspects?

This post seems kinda suspect. Like he's trying to make sure that he's not leading the suspicion list, so he can make sure the others get lynched first or something.

Well I'm fairly suspicious of coron for fairly obvious reasons. I'm going to go do a read through to a) see if I can dig up any more dirt on coron and b) to look at how players interacted with quagmire through the game.

You made this post without ever presenting any case against Coron, so I don't see what *obvious* reasons you had...

Well I'm going to go ahead a

vote: coron

.

Save the dragons: if you believe me and coron are scum then you have nothing to lose by putting your money where your mouth is and voting him as well. Just saying.

(And before anyone asks, no I haven't done the read through yet to dig up dirt on coron, but I will if you feel I absolutely have to. I was planning to then I remembered it was 79 pages...)

I'm going to call you on this, ThAdmiral. It's critical that we hit scum today, so I'm going to have to ask you to give me an in-depth case on Coron. Coron, the same goes for you. I want to see a case lined out in a single post, please. I'm doing the same as well.

Mystery Meat of Doom night targets

Night 1: Switches ibaesha (Jack Johnson) with SpamWise (Jack Quinn)
Night 2: Switches MrBuddyLee (Jack Nelson) with the silent speaker (Jack Fox)
Night 3: No choice submitted
Night 4: Switches Yosarian2 (officeless) into the empty office of Jack Gallagher
Night 5: Switches spectrumvoid (Jack Irving) into the empty office of Jack Kay

On night 5, MMOD was switched into a new office with a new role: Jack zimmerman

I'm assuming your new role has no abilities?


I'm not going to comment on today's posts unless something really jumps out at me, because I could see you both making those posts as town or scum, and it's hard to differentiate at this point, since there's nothing else going on except talking about which one of us three is scum. I did notice that ThAdmiral both set himself up to make an argument against me and then turned around in the next post and said that if I was scum I've played an excellent game, which is basically the same as saying that I'm protown. That post is a possible attempt to butter me up and get me on his side.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm continuing from my last analysis of Coron, since I asked him questions based on his play so far at that time. I feel that he answered all the questions adequately, but I do want to focus on this last one for a sec.

Who do you think is scum right now? Do you approve of the Quagmire-wagon?

I dunno how I feel about the quag wagon, but it seems to me either way ThAdmiral is probably scum.

Why was ThAdmiral scum whether or not Quag was scum? Obviously, Quag WAS scum, but if he'd been town, what made you think ThAdmiral would still be scum?

Quite simply if quagmire was town and there was a scum yet to vote they would just do it, right? (This would mean mafia win I believe)
That is unless all three mafia have already voted him, but I find that hard to believe since two of the people I most trust to be town (MoS, and STD) are ones voting.

How do we know we have 3 scum left? Do you know something we don't?

More likely is that quagmire is scum and the people not voting yet are his scum-partners (except me, cause I'm ready to drop the hammer).

you act like jumping on a bandwagon of someone who it looks like is going to die anyway makes you less likely to be scum. This is a reasonably common thing to be done by scum.

I agree very much with this post. ThAdmiral thinking that being on the Quag wagon makes you less scummy doesn't really work (I think I actually missed this in my TA analysis). Quag's been scummy for quite some time, and he probably would've been lynched the day before had people not lurked until NL, so it's not like he wasn't pretty much condemned already. I'd been pushing him for something like 3 or 4 days by then, and as suspects dwindled, people were agreeing.

Save the dragons: if you believe me and coron are scum then you have nothing to lose by putting your money where your mouth is and voting him as well. Just saying.

No.

:goodposting:
ThAdmiral, there is no reason to rush through the day, that is unless you're scum trying to minimize the information town has.

This feels protown to me.

I didn't vote quagmire yesterday because ThAdmiral was/is ridiculous scummy. I'm going after him because he's ridiculous scummy, and I'm going after him because he's ridiculous scummy.

Got it?

Point against. Coron kept saying that ThAdmiral was ridiculously scummy and couldn't understand why people didn't agree, but he never explained *why* ThAdmiral was scummy up to that point.

I think after that I asked Coron to explain it, though since he soon posted some reasoning.

Ok, SV might have a few more scum tells on him, however look at it this way, what we want here is a density of scummy actions not a total of scummy actions, as ThAdmiral has many fewer posts in which to be scummy, and a lot of scumminess in these posts, he has an extremely high scuminess density.

Also, now MoS is acting shady again -_-

I'm not really sure I agree that density > total #, but I don't really have a counterargument. I'm not sure what the problem I have with this argument is, bah. >_< Also, point in favor of CoronTown, since he actually voiced suspicion of someone *other* than ThAdmiral, whereas ThAdmiral has pretty much gone solely after Coron after Quag's death.

Coron's argument with me is pretty much a null tell, because I believe he would've taken issue with that regardless of alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

At this point, I'm leaning far more towards ThAdmiral than Coron, but I'd like to give you both a chance to make cases in detail, as I have, before anyone casts a vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I think that's sorta what I was thinking. Regardless, I don't think it ties *that* heavily into your alignment whether you are right or wrong about it, but it bugged me from a game theory standpoint.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I assume there would be 5 mafia due to the size of the game. Is that unreasonable?

On the people I think are scum and the people I think are town: these are based on my overall feeling after reading through the game.

ThAdmiral's comments are making me consider the idea of us starting with 2 mafias of size 2 each and one SK, all of those groups having some nightkill protection (necessary to explain the relative lack of kills night 1). One of those mafias would be bluemonick-Fuldu, fairly obviously.

In such a scenario, my reasons for thinking MMod (now ThAdmiral) are protown are basically null and void.

ThAdmiral, obviously there was not a 5-person mafia, or the game would be over. That's not the point, though. Do you now contend that there was simply a 4-person mafia instead of 2 2-person mafias? That is the only way that votes in relation to Fuldu and bluemonick can possibly mean anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I believe that Coron was instrumental in presenting a case against Mathcam for his lynch, and I was pretty convinced that BabyJesus was scum, so I don't think you can really say that SV was the only protown lynch that either of us were instrumental for.

[Mastermind of Sin]

gah, forgot to address the last point, and I got distracted. I agree that the Coron lurking thing is bad, but he was inactive for a long time and was really lazy. However, that point is probably the only major thing that's keeping me from voting ThAdmiral (other than waiting for everyone to present cases).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I think Fuldu/bluemonick were a 2-person mafia, because we never had three kills anymore after Fuldu died. It's possible that Fuldu had a vig office, but as Thok was discussing before, it seems far more likely that it's just two mafias. This makes more sense balance-wise, because if there was a 4-person mafia, they could all get power roles and really unbalance the game. With 2 2-person mafias, if the scum got power roles, they wouldn't be coordinating the actions of all 4 of them, which balances out the fact that they have power roles.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*bump*

[Mastermind of Sin]

where is ThAdmiral?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think a voting analysis gives that much insight into a player's alignment when I believe they only had one scumpartner.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ThAdmiral, the problem is that it *can* be construed as a WIFOM argument either way. Either the scum bussed their partner to look more protown, or they thought that the town would think them likely to bus their partner, and they fought against it to look like a protown player, since most scum would not try to avoid their partner's lynch when it looks so inevitable. Under *most* circumstances, bussing is more likely. However, Coron is an experienced enough player to have possibly thought of this. Also, it's entirely likely that the scum didn't even try to plan for what the town would think, either. Game theory doesn't seem like it's going to do much good, at this point. Anything any of us did with regards to Quagmire could be construed as something scum would do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was about to do that anyways. ThAdmiral has consistently brought up game theory that is not relevant at this point, and it seems to be a ploy to distract us by making us think about things that don't matter anymore. If Coron is scum, good job. I agree with you on ThAdmiral being scum, so I would've voted today anyway and chanced you hammering him. Let's hope this turns out the way we want it to.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[Mastermind of Sin]

OMG He's not gonna tell us if ThAdmiral was scum or not! Damn you, Yaw!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yaw eats a long dinner...

[Mastermind of Sin]

^_^

I'm so glad we killed both cops the night they found Quagmire guilty

Actually, ThAdmiral, I felt that Coron had a better chance of voting me than you did. That's why I made sure my analysis had a pro-ThAdmiralScum leaning, in order to make it so that Coron was agreeing with me. Had I attacked him, I felt that he might've OMGUS'd me and looked harder at my play so far during the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

were both cops in scum hands early on?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I really liked this setup. Running it as a mini would be awesome.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, if bluemonick was actually still around, he'd be banned from any games I modded. That was pretty lame.