'The Lost Boys' Mafia (Cry Little Sister, it's OVER!)

[Ectomancer]

/confirm
Let's get this show on the road!!

[Ectomancer]

vote Am

so I could be lazy and use the short version of an already short name.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote: Battle Mage

I haven't been on a BM wagon lately and I want to reserve a seat.

[Ectomancer]

I find the idea of a day cop with multiple investigations per day, even if its a number per game as very suspicious so I am going for a

Vote TCS

it seems as though he is trying to get us confused, and destroy as many theories as possible, to keep us from working as a group. Even though there are very few theories at the start of the game.

Working as a group? There's only a handful of people in any given game game who work as a group on page four. Are you among them?

With 19 people and The Lost Boys as theme, I suspect that we have more than 1 group that could be working together on page 4, and not all of them sinister.
Sir.Laggalot - I'm concerned if you were confused enough by TCS to vote for him.

[Ectomancer]

Sir.Laggalot - I'm concerned if you were confused enough by TCS to vote for him.

Ok this is my first game so i am not certain that what i said is what i mean, so i will leave it up to you to correct me.

I think that TCS or "The Central Scrutinizer" is part of the vampires or some other group hell bent on killing us all, with that in mind

I Vote for The Central Scrutinizer to be lynched

The way he is pointing the finger at every one and having multiple accusations is just very Vampire like.

Alright, if this is your first game, its would explain your reaction. As for your analysis, I think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit. This game should go on for awhile, so if you have the time, I suggest signing up for a newbie game as well. It stands a good chance of finishing before this one does and you could use the experience it will provide.

[Ectomancer]

TCS: Here, this is my new invention, a sarcasm flag. You need to wave that around at the approperate time when playing with some people.

Put me down for an order of...ELEVEN!

I think if anyone seriously believes TCS was, at any point, trying to claim he was the daycop is either scum or possibly the type of person who keeps crashing their car because you keep driving on a driveway and park on a parkway. He was clearly making a joke, one that in hindsight most likely wasn't a good idea, but a clear joke nonetheless, a point made clear by the fact he said he "daycopped" someone twice in one day, and switched his random vote accordingly.

I see that we have a difference opinion when it comes to TCS and his day-cop stuff...

I agree that he is either a day-cop or being confusing

...I still think that he's a good lynch at this point...

As said, if he does come up day-cop, we have 2 scum pegged

....I'm happy with the outcome either way.

That being said, I would like to point out that the following think that it's a good idea to lynch TCS : Arafax, Sir.Lagalot, Sudo_Nym.
While these are very opposed to it : Yosarian2, MoS, Tin-Vision, Pooky....I just wanted to get that out there.

Yeah, I'm happy with my current vote.

I'm going to

vote Arafax

on the basis that while the other two on the "lynch TCS for claiming" bandwagon are relatively new and could potentially be tricked by TCS' tongue in cheek statement, your record clearly indicates you should know better than to make statements like those.

In addition to being complete tomfoolery, your statements serve only to confuse and befuddle in a game where there are newer players to confuse and befuddle. While a similar charge has been issued against TCS, it differs in both the fact his was made before the public was fully aware of Sudo and Lagg's statuses, and during a period of time where jokes and randomness is acceptable behavior. Your statement, however, was made with full knowledge of the newbies and long after jokes should be being made (with the obvious being that your statements also wouldn't be funny in any context)

I agree, it's a very good point, despite Arafax's subsequent claim that it doesn't warrant a vote.

You know, this quote made me wonder about its purpose earlier.

That being said, I would like to point out that the following think that it's a good idea to lynch TCS : Arafax, Sir.Lagalot, Sudo_Nym.
While these are very opposed to it : Yosarian2, MoS, Tin-Vision, Pooky....I just wanted to get that out there.

Then it hit me that something I look for was sitting right there. Giving new players advice on how to play is one thing, but I look for people trying to "buddy up" with them. And there it is. "Hey look Sir,Lagalot and Sudo_Nym! Im on your side, and those other guys, they aren't."

vote Arafax

[Ectomancer]

Amb, I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Just exactly how many times can you use the word "waffle" to characterize someone's statements and

still

say that the wagon against them is insane?

On Laggsalot - See that townsperson tag? Picking up on the fact that while he is talking about game concepts, he doesn't appear to understand how to actually apply them in game? (wiki wiki) Umm yeah.

THAT

is the ridiculous bandwagon.

[Ectomancer]

Unvote, Vote Sir Laggalot

It's a toss-up, but he has less votes than Arafax, and I don't think we want a speedlynch.

Hrmm, I dont know about keeping the votes even at a high level simply for the purpose of keeping them even. It just seems it would make it easier for scum to steer the lynch. Also, as it was pointed out, adding another vote doesnt prevent a speed lynch and can only help it along.

[Ectomancer]

Holy crap Anix, that's one of the best responses I've read since I've been on these boards. :respect:

I still believe SirLagg is just a major newbie, despite (or because of) not even being able to get his facts straight.

[Ectomancer]

In light of Arafax's claim, I'm wondering if we have a cult here somewhere. Vampire's are a perfect cult vehicle. Drink the blood and join them.
If Paul is human right now, but was a vampire in the movie, I think in game there has to be a way for him to

become

a vampire. Also, if that is true, then I think that he very well could be town as of this moment.

That would deserve an

unvote

.

I've got to read up on how cults work myself, but Im assuming that even if Arafax is town today, he might not be tomorrow?

[Ectomancer]

Absolutely not.

FOS

All 3 of you rolefishers.

He said he had something similiar of a similiar nature going on with him, but didn't state specifically exactly

what

similiarities they had. I can see why he would couch his comment that way. Without his backing, I probably would have been less likely to lend credence to Arafax's claim.
There is no reason to give out what his name is just so Scum can begin speculating what role that name could have.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP

My bad, all 4 of you.

[Ectomancer]

Whatever he claims, his role is going to be vanilla later on. Yeah I agree, let's leave him alone.

you're very quick to compromise your views aren't you?
I don't even understand your first sentence, but your play today has been dodgy all round.

*hopes you aren't Jester again* lol

With regard to Anlx name-claiming, i think its a great idea. If the scum don't have safeclaims, its good to put them under this sort of early pressure. I suspect those who don't want a claim of this nature have something to hide...
I mean, what the hell do you expect to learn from a name-claim?

@Yos-yeh, that was the question i wanted answered. I mean, just between me and you, who have little idea about all these names and flavour etc, why shouldn't we have a nameclaim from Anlx?

Until someone can tell me that, if THEY were to claim, it would give indication of their role, i reccommend that Anlx claims.

BM

Go watch the movie instead of trying to somehow imply that your judgement is better because you

haven't

seen it.

[Ectomancer]

rofl. why so defensive Ectomancer?

I wasn't being defensive, I was being aggressive. Flay stated that it would be REALLY helpful for you to watch the movie, because it would explain some of the weird setup/roles you are likely to encounter.
So yes, I'm less than patient with you for asking about film information and then implying that you were a better judge of whether Anix should name claim because of your ignorance on the subject.

[Ectomancer]

Arafax's claim makes sense. he's not the play for today.
Case Closed.

QFT

[Ectomancer]

Am I voting for The Fonz?

vote The Fonz

When you decide to quit pushing for claims let me know.

[Ectomancer]

Am I voting for The Fonz?

vote The Fonz

When you decide to quit pushing for claims let me know.

thats an odd conclusion...
I'd have thought since Fonz was arguing with TCS, and TCS was the one who was desperate to see multiple vanilla claims, Fonz would have been against it. If you know otherwise, please clarify.

BM

It's in his wall of text. He's still after an Anix name claim. I still believe he shouldn't get it. I think he made the right move and doesn't need to say more on it right now.

[Ectomancer]

Well this is interesting, Fonz has said some semi suspicious things but for me at least, There are much more suspicious people, Yosarian2 and VitaminR, who are yet again working together.

[Ectomancer]

Something sounds wrong in the 335,336,337 post chain.

Makes sense.

Vote Sudo_Nym

Tagalong vote?

[Ectomancer]

unvote

I have a logic disagreement with The Fonz, but I don't think that is enough to lynch him over.

[Ectomancer]

Why would I add a single vote to a bandwagon with a single person on it, to what would that benefit me ?

The more relevant question is, what is your reasoning for putting it there? This verbal dance with Sudo is old before it gets started. I've played with Sudo before, and you two could dance all day long if we let you.

[Ectomancer]

We got to lynch minus one on the Fonz, and its beginning to fall away. Can we put it back there please, plus one more.

Not like that we wont.

vote Amb[/vote]

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP:

vote Amb

we need some /vote tags heheh

[Ectomancer]

I'm having a hard time

not

lynching David. I think we either find him to be evil, or he really is town. In either case, we will have a better idea of how to react to certain names, and may force people to give false claims if they no longer believe the "vanilla town cinema vampire" claims will let them ride.

[Ectomancer]

At this point, the people who are singular votes should consider switching to a more popular vote-getter. PookyTheMagicalBear, Sudo_Nym, The Fonz, TinVision. And the people who have no vote cast right now- whats wrong with you?

Why would they vote for a popular wagon on someone if they don't believe them to be scum? Why would you advocate such a thing?


Alright, I thought about it and I can't let David go. Also, this rash of film vamps claiming really throws some suspicion about the method of recruitment. Someone already mentioned that Max might have to find his coterie and can

only

recruit from that pool. Now that a few vamps have claimed (instead of one), that makes for quite a pool to choose from and he doesn't have to randomly pick someone tonight.
Is there a role anyone has heard of that

wants

to be found by another player with a specific role, but cant announce "here I am" for the simple reason that town would lynch them?
A "vamp in film, but vanilla town" claim would enable them to say "here I am" without being lynched, wouldnt it?


David has to go.

vote The Fonz

[Ectomancer]

Oh yes, the scenario I just laid out is

exactly

why all this stupid name claiming is bad for the town.

[Ectomancer]

Go back to page 1 and read the sample townie PM. Look at the different categories for abilites and such, plus the phrasing "when all threats to town", not when the vampires are dead or scum is eliminated or something similiar.
If all these movie vamps are town, then where is the informed minority(ies)? Are we truly looking at a reversed order kind of deal? With someone like Paul, or Star, I wouldnt say that lynching them will give us an idea of where the informed minorities may be, but with the unearthing of David, I think that gives us an early opportunity to get our heads around what could possibly be happening. He is so central to the story in many ways for evil.

[Ectomancer]

Well, you cant exactly rolefish when the guy already claimed.

What I'm saying is, in every game there has to be an informed minority. The townie PM seems to indicate possibly more than 1 threat to the town, making 2 informed minorities, possibly.

So, if all the bad vampires in the film are vanilla town, where is the informed minority(ies)?

I have an idea for one of them, but don't want to go deeper this discussion, since as you say, that could be construed as role fishing.

Anyhow, it is possible that roles and names have little to do with the film. I'll let you look at your own role and your characters role in the film and see how close you think it is. Then come back and decide whether lynching David in order to see whether we can apply our film knowledge to help figure things out is a good move.

[Ectomancer]

Just because there is more than one threat to the town does not mean that there is more than one informed minority.

Reading comprehension FTW, notice the word

possibly

when discussing more than 1 informed minority.

FYI, for those who have yet to watch the movie, claiming David in this theme is akin to claiming The Witch King in a Lord of the Rings theme and saying you are still a human King and town.

So he is lying, or he is not. I don't know which. The other town vamp claims could lend credence to his claim, OR, he realized that those claims would be a perfect cover up for a David claim. I think he could have been stalling on his claim because he really didnt want to claim that name, but wasnt sure what other claim would be safe. Fonz has a ton of votes already on him, so it's not as though I'm advocating lynching a total town vibe player. It would shed some light on what's going on, and help clear the other "town vamp" claims (until a possible cult starts recruiting).

[Ectomancer]

Leave any meta-game grudges out of this game please. I rather like it and don't want to see external motivations being used here. It sucks for everyone else not involved in the pissing contest.

[Ectomancer]

Leave any meta-game grudges out of this game please. I rather like it and don't want to see external motivations being used here. It sucks for everyone else not involved in the pissing contest.

AFAIK, we have no "grudge..." BM genuinely thinks I'm scum and I want to know why.

Ahh ok. I want to know why he thinks you are scum too.

[Ectomancer]

More of a Bellatrix/Voldemort pairing Fonz, but yes the relation is similiar. I understand why you would say Lucious though, and I do wonder whether that might not be the more applicable comparison. It certainly could. But you could also have very dangerous potential even if you are vanilla town today. I have serious doubts as to whether you will be town tomorrow either by recruiting or game mechanic. You're the itch I will always want to scratch. It may be better to scratch sooner and answer some questions at the same time.
I've never played in a game with a cult, so I have to ask again whether anyone has seen a cult recruiter that could only recruit certain players?

[Ectomancer]

Speculation on setup is one thing, taking a reasonable idea of what it could be as dogma is another. Be careful of the weight you give to the assumptions some of you guys are making about the setup. It causes you to come to conclusions that can look really good, but may not be worth a hill of beans if your initial assumption is flawed. David's death shows that we cant make assumptions about roles based upon name. I think that calling Max the Head Vamp is probably right, but we could be entirely wrong. In this case, it could be Star that is the Vampire and seducing the town and turning them. That of course is assuming that there really is a cult. It's a good idea, and I feel pretty certain that we do have one, but I dont know for sure. I also feel that there are probably 2 cult/scum groups, not one.
Also, after reading the wiki on cults, I think the cult is probably limited in some fashion, and being able to only recruit non-power role town would make sense. That's why we would have a lot of movie vamps standing around as vanilla town.
Now, I dont think those guys are the lynch, we've got to find the other scum group (assuming one) then play a balancing act later killing off each group so 1 never gets a majority.
Also, in the wiki it said if Cult targeted Mafia, then he dies. Not sure if that would have happened here, but if so, then all those vanilla claims really sucked, because he still had 2 "safe" targets to choose from. (Safe except we know about them). That makes me wonder if cult leader would have targeted one of them, or taken a risk elsewhere. I think it would have to be one of them. If we lynch, we only have a 50/50 of figuring out which one it was, and if we do happen to get the right one, it wont lead us back to the leader.

Anyhow, enough speculation.

Why Mariyta?

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, what makes you assume that we have two separate scumgroups, and that they are a cult AND a mafia?

Size of the game, the film, issues with a cult that could be addressed by limitations that would make sense with this theme, vanilla David that opens the door for it, and pure speculation.

Alright. I'll come out and voice my suspicion. I was hoping someone would claim from this group so we could test it out, but if they've figured out what Im hinting at, then I could be dead before I spit it out.

I think vampires are the proto-type cult figures. Head Vampire lets you drink his blood and Bam, you are one of them. We've had several vanilla town film vamp claims, so that would make sense.
Now, if the vampires are the cult, where is the scum group?
I think it is very possible that the Skinheads at the beach are an informed minority. I don't think Santa Carla got the murder capital title from vampires alone.

[Ectomancer]

I speculated on two on day 1. Cult leader spent last night recruiting, Scum tried to kill and Doc/Roleblocker thwarted the attempt. I think a cult would have to be limited at least in that fashion to be present in game. Bear in mind that all of this requires some evidentiary support before we can start giving it serious consideration.
I think the first place we start looking next are the people who wanted to enhance the impression that we have 1 scum group and the vampires are them. It makes it easier to hide if people aren't looking for you in the first place.

My quick look was at GodofWine, Sudo_Nym, and SirLag. I see VitaminR also bring up taking a look at Sudo and SirLag, but the phrasing of his comments made me think it a bit odd back then, and then when I went back looking for who was talking about having a single scumgroup as if it was already a settled issue, I ran across it again.

If we turn out to have a recruiting mafia, I'd want to take a close look at Sir.Laggalot and Sudo_Nym. I don't like how they're assuming it to be the case.

For the moment, I see no real reason to assume we have one.

In a way, he is bringing them up for similiar reasons. However, if I consider another scumgroup, rather than town pointing out these guys to look at later because they might have known something that they shouldn't, it could be scum setting up 2 townies to be examined, if not lynched based off of circumstantial evidence.

And then I decided to look further at VitaminR's comments to see how he has been acting. Some early comments could be considered scummy, or not, his interactions with SirLag, and the focus on Fonz was of note, but nothing can be assumed from them. Then I found this, which ties back in to his quote above and the people I was looking for originally in the first place.

I'm going back to

Vote: The Fonz

Quickly jumps on The Fonz for voting No Lynch during the random voting stage. While I agree the No Lynching on day one is almost always scummy, was there ever any real threat that a No Lynch would ever actually happen?

No, but there is just no reason for a town player to vote it. It brings us nothing. It doesn't create discussion. It's a bad vote.

Why exactly is this suspicion-raising? The Fonz's question seems perfectly legitimate to me.

-TinVision-'s post was a bit jokey. The Fonz took it a bit too seriously, I thought. Voting someone for admitting to being nervous seemed a bit too easy.

This has already been addressed, but vampires in place of a mafia should be fairly common sense. Flay did require you to watch the movie before signing up, didn't he? Seems like pretty thin grounds to launch an attack.

Vampires in place of a mafia does make sense, but, in general, on the first day of a themed game few people refer to the mafia by its theme-specific name. It could be a sign that the player involved has had more chance to think in the game's terms. In other words, a player who has received a vampire role and perhaps talked to their vampire buddies will be more likely to use that term.

Remember that I was looking for people who were trying to say that the vampires were the scum group? In this quote, he re-inforces that idea by jumping on people for using the word "vampires". He claims that people who got vampire roles would be more likely to use that term when referring to scum in the game, because they are already used to the idea, where everyone else would likely use the word scum. Well, I didnt see that it was that great a point to make against someone, as Sudo pointed out.
But.
Reading back now, I realize that a comment calling vampires scum

would

stand out particularly for one group, and that group is the one that really

is

scum but are

not

vampires. I think that is why someone using the word Vampires instead of scum stood out so much for VitaminR.

Man, that's a great house of cards.

vote VitaminR

[Ectomancer]

Reading back now, I realize that a comment calling vampires scum

would

stand out particularly for one group, and that group is the one that really

is

scum but are

not

vampires. I think that is why someone using the word Vampires instead of scum stood out so much for VitaminR.

So can I just get this right ... You think that non-vamp scum want's to draw attention to someone who's misleading the town about the nature of the scum group? That makes no sense.

Also for someone critical of people making assumptions about the setup you're making a lot of assumptions about the setup.

I don't think you read that correctly. VitaminR reinforced the idea that the scum group are vampires by calling out someone who referenced vampires as scum with the premise that vampire scum would be the first to use the term "vampire" in game to refer to scum. You understand?
But you see, I don't buy that town would catch that kind of slip up. It's possible, but seems grasping a bit. But, if you assume that the scum group

isnt

vampires, then the use of vampires to refer to scum would definitely stand out in the mind of the non-vamp scum group.

Now Crub, I did speculate wildly, tossing out ideas for later when we get more evidence. My point above however, is a bit more than speculation and is not assuming the setup. I am asserting that the chances of town noticing and calling someone out on the use of a scum term, is

far

less likely than a member of a scum group that knew the term was inaccurate. Now, we still dont have evidence to support the existence of a scum group that isn't Vampires. However, should one become apparent, it doesn't hurt to have places to go back and look for them.

[Ectomancer]

I don't think you read that correctly. VitaminR reinforced the idea that the scum group are vampires by calling out someone who referenced vampires as scum with the premise that vampire scum would be the first to use the term "vampire" in game to refer to scum. You understand?
But you see, I don't buy that town would catch that kind of slip up.

Actually, that's a (supposed) scum tell people reference all the time, calling the scum group by their specific name rather then the general term "scum", on the theory that people in that group are more likely to do so then townies. For example, look at Kingmaker I, where at least one person was attacked (incorectly, as it turned out), for using the term "Assasin" rather then "scum", even though it specifically said in the mod post that the bad guys were "assasins". So your whole argument here, that "town wouldn't do that", is pretty deeply flawed from the start.

It's possible, but seems grasping a bit. But, if you assume that the scum group

isnt

vampires, then the use of vampires to refer to scum would definitely stand out in the mind of the non-vamp scum group.

If you have an example, then fine. The statement still stands that mis-naming the scum group would stand out more in the eyes of the real scum group than for town. FYI, you blatantly mis-characterized my statement with your paraphrase. Nowhere in my post did I ever say anything like "town wouldnt do that". I said that town is

less likely

than the real scum group to catch a mislabel of scum.

fos Yosarian2

for changing the meaning of a statement through paraphrase.

Now, why are you assuming all that again?

Maybe you dont understand how discovery works. You gather evidence, you form hypotheses based upon the available evidence that would best explain the situation, and then you gather more evidence to either prove or disprove your hypotheses.

Now, would you term your response as an effort to discourage specific activity, or were you defending VitaminR? If specific activity, add some clarity and describe exactly what you are trying to discourage here,

@Crub, - I already answered that question. Perhaps you missed it. People tend to skim long posts I noticed.

@Arafax - Scum hunting would be nice. Speaking of you, I'm very interested that you didn't protest at all when we were getting ready to lynch The Fonz, despite the fact that his claim was similiar to yours. Why didn't you believe Fonz?

[Ectomancer]

Actually, that's a (supposed) scum tell people reference all the time, calling the scum group by their specific name rather then the general term "scum", on the theory that people in that group are more likely to do so then townies. For example, look at Kingmaker I, where at least one person was attacked (incorectly, as it turned out), for using the term "Assasin" rather then "scum", even though it specifically said in the mod post that the bad guys were "assasins". So your whole argument here, that "town wouldn't do that", is pretty deeply flawed from the start.

Ectomancer, I was actually in this game. I had a discussion about this tell with Fuldu in which I argued that it wasn't as significant as he made it out to be (I still think this, it's a small tell). I was the Kingmaker.

I think Ectomancer is making way too much out of this, but I don't think it's with bad intentions.

That's actually more telling and a better read than Yosarian's example. If you were recently involved in such a situation, then it would be more fresh in the top of your mind, so your comment would make sense.

unvote

FYI, there is now a WIFOM situation upon my (imminent)death that should be avoided. If I die, it doesnt mean I was right and scum was trying to shut me up, but also it doesn't mean I was wrong. I mention this to avoid this discussion if I get targeted.


@Arafax - You are right. I nearly always believe you are scum. It doesn't mean you aren't (yet)

For more information on why I make sure we are aware of the possibility of a cult; we cant assume innocent yesterday are innocent today. Once again, until we have evidence that supports it, you cant base your vote off of that, but it is a good idea to be aware of all possibilities.

[Ectomancer]

@Arafax - Scum hunting would be nice. Speaking of you, I'm very interested that you didn't protest at all when we were getting ready to lynch The Fonz, despite the fact that his claim was similiar to yours. Why didn't you believe Fonz?

Because it was for the good of the town...As a matter of fact, I told you all that it was smart to lynch me given my unique situation.

This didn't answer the question. I asked why you didn't believe The Fonz. "Because it was for the good of the town" as a response makes absolutely no sense at all. That describes why you would take an action, not why you would come to a conclusion. There would be a reason why you thought his claim was untrue, despite you having a similiar role. So, what was the reason you didn't believe him?

[Ectomancer]

I find it hard to believe that Ectomancer has that much trouble understanding Arafax. He seems to be deliberately confusing what Arafax is saying...

FOS Mariyta

This is just a very weak attack while you wait and see if anyone else joins Pooky against me. Get on the bus or don't, but quit trying to reserve a seat.

@Arafax - Here's the statement I think you are trying to make. "I was willing to be lynched to provide definitive information to the town that movie vamps are indeed town vanilla in this game. However, once Fonz claimed similiar, then it was better (for Arafax) to lynch The Fonz in order to provide that definitive information instead."

If that is what you mean, then I'm not certain that I agree with that move. You know that there were probably other vanilla town/movie vamps in addition to yourself that would know the story was true without needing to prove it yesterday.
I believe Arafax, but I want that wagon looked at for everyone else that claimed/will claim vanilla town. If they knew that information to be true, then there was no need for Fonz to be lynched and nothing would need to have been said. We simply would have never garnered the votes for The Fonz.

@Pooky - I would be disappointed if I didn't get a vote. I'm walking a tightrope here working things out and that will always arouse suspicion. It's not going to stop my speculating though, if that is what you are after.

[Ectomancer]

I think Sudo_Nym makes a good lynch candidate for his actions today and yesterday.

We need some action around here. I picked this quote out because Sudo seems to have the best momentum here and I was hoping to see a breakdown of the case. VitaminR, this quote looks like you have some examples from yesterday and today. Can you give me a short elaboration on this quote please?

[Ectomancer]

1. He offers the suggestion of lynching TCS. Not really a strong point, because he dismissed it fairly quickly.
2. Sudo_Nym sets out cases against Arafax, Indy and me, but never votes or FOSes any of these people. Instead, he jumps only on the Sir.Laggalot wagon.
3. Set-up/role speculation
4. Jumps on the Mariyta wagon.
5. Jumps on the TCS wagon.

It is mostly the fact that he has been building cases and showing suspicions himself, but his votes are all tag-along votes and specifically not on the people he seems to have his own suspicions of. Even his TinVision vote (the only non-random vote not mentioned above) only uses justification provided by HH earlier.

Quoted for extensive amounts of truthiness.

I agree. However, I'm feeling a strong inertia with this lack of input from a large portion of our 19 player game. Without calling names, I know some of them are active in other games and haven't posted here in a week. Let's get off our keisters and and start chatting people. Hell, at least slap a random vote on the biggest wagon so we can start throwing FOS's around. You shouldn't have to do that however, there are 25 pages worth of discussion to find someone who needs to be lynched today.

[Ectomancer]

Dont let Dybeck's arrival deter the rest of you slackers. Get to posting.

[Ectomancer]

Dybeck, I tend to be an instigator in one form or another.

VitaminR, you

are

walking the line of trying to supress discussion. I understand your reluctance to speculate beyond a certain degree, but I still believe that tossing out possibilities that occurred to us early in the game is not bad information for us to share amongst ourselves. To be honest, if the scum group is the one I speculated(should we find a vampire cult), they would most certainly be tipped off already to the rest of it, so the rest of us also knowing that possibility wont give them a better advantage.

[Ectomancer]

Alright VitaminR, with a SirLags around you could be right.

SL - you cant draw any conclusions from speculation, didn't you get that part? The purpose of speculation is mainly for awareness so that as we gather evidence we can try to match it up to either promote or disprove an idea, or to avoid being taken unawares. But we scum hunt like we always scum hunt.

[Ectomancer]

Actually, that's a (supposed) scum tell people reference all the time, calling the scum group by their specific name rather then the general term "scum", on the theory that people in that group are more likely to do so then townies. For example, look at Kingmaker I, where at least one person was attacked (incorectly, as it turned out), for using the term "Assasin" rather then "scum", even though it specifically said in the mod post that the bad guys were "assasins". So your whole argument here, that "town wouldn't do that", is pretty deeply flawed from the start.

Ectomancer, I was actually in this game. I had a discussion about this tell with Fuldu in which I argued that it wasn't as significant as he made it out to be (I still think this, it's a small tell). I was the Kingmaker.

I think Ectomancer is making way too much out of this, but I don't think it's with bad intentions.

That's actually more telling and a better read than Yosarian's example. If you were recently involved in such a situation, then it would be more fresh in the top of your mind, so your comment would make sense.

Huh? It's the same example I just referenced.

You didn't mention that he was in that game and was also the person involved in that discussion over it being a tell. That makes a world of difference for why VitaminR would have brought that up as a tell in this game.

[Ectomancer]

ok, Tinvision. He's not made a great number of post this game, but his few posts have contained many tells:

Agreeing with the majority without expressing any new opinions.
Giving weak reasoning for significant BW votes.
Joining several of these large BW's (including the one on Fonz)
Lurking in plain sight.

Generally strange behaviour.

Unvote, Vote: Tinvision

I could go for a Tinvision bandwagon. Not least because it would get him talking. But Battle Mage... why did you name claim?

Good question. I started thinking about it, and realized that even though BM thought he made the same claim as Arafax and The Fonz (vanilla town, movie vamp), he really didn't make the

exact

same claim.
Arafax claimed Paul, The Fonz claimed David. Now yes, they were movie vamps, but

not

the same as Star. Those two were Max's "Boys". Star and Laddy were not. They hadn't turned. Michael was supposed to be her first. Remember?
So while The Fonz's death confirms Arafax's initial claim for me, it does not do the same for Star. I don't consider them as part of the same "group" in the movie.

So, I would like to hear what drove the claim. If Max's boys aren't scum, someone out there is. It looks as though you were trying to duck under the vanilla town/movie vamp umbrella, but since you didn't see the movie, you didn't realize that you don't actually belong there.

fos BM

[Ectomancer]

that clinches it. Fonz is town. Lets merge the Mariyta and Amb wagons, in order to actually lynch a scumbag today.

vote BM

for not going after either one of these "scumbags" today when the nights events didn't alter their apparent status as suspects.

[Ectomancer]

Now, in fairness, if you want to keep your votes on me, i think both of you should explain to me why Tinvision is so obviously protown.

First I think that you should explain why TinVision's actions should have any bearing on what I've said about you thus far. Certainly the phrasing of your request implies a position not expressed.

Now as to what I think about you and TinVision?
When I saw your post, I thought, you know, BM has been developing some decent instincts (I play in a lot of games with BM). He might have actually seen something in TinVision, lets see how things go.
Then something happened:

ok, Tinvision. He's not made a great number of post this game, but his few posts have contained many tells:

Agreeing with the majority without expressing any new opinions.
Giving weak reasoning for significant BW votes.
Joining several of these large BW's (including the one on Fonz)
Lurking in plain sight.

Generally strange behaviour.

Unvote, Vote: Tinvision

I could go for a Tinvision bandwagon. Not least because it would get him talking. But Battle Mage... why did you name claim?

I didn't like the phrasing of the first part of dybeck's reply. It's the type to make me think scum jumping on, which in turn made me reconsider BM's instincts here, which dybeck provided the follow up for. Why did he name claim? That led me back to what was going on and that was when the difference between BM's claim and the other two clicked.

So, in short, I didn't like the manner in which the TinVision bandwagon was forming, there are problems with BM's actions and suspicion about that role that David's death does not clear up.
With that being said, I dont want to lynch Star today.

unvote BM

fos dybeck

.
Get to elaborating on a Tinvision wagon you could go for please.

[Ectomancer]

Almost forgot, BM I think that your instincts on the name claim would have been better had you actually watched the film.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm... Crub and Hacker both coming in from nowhere to defend BM... interesting...

interesting eh? from what perspective? Do you consider their actions unreasonable, or do you agree? rather than making inferences about others, it'd be nice to hear something direct from you.

BM

Actually I noted Crub's vehemence in attacking a vote that wasn't against him at the time. It was particularly out of place when my quote was a perfect example of lackadaisical vote hopping, which doesn't warrant someone charging off the bench to defend someone else.

[Ectomancer]

Oh hello Dybeck. Back to name names without making a case again? Where is that elaboration on a TinVision bandwagon you could go for?
TCS, without a majority of the people posting, there is not a single person who is the play for today.
I'm looking forward to the rest of Amb's pbp on Sudo. Right now, I haven't seen Sudo do anything out of the ordinary for him. He normally speculates alot and comes up with warped conclusions (to me). It also doesn't surprise me to see him accuse people for things that he himself has done.
Is Sudo scum? I dont know. But I would give a similiar statement about playstyle to people in a game with Battle Mage who have never played with him before.

[Ectomancer]

Oh hello Dybeck. Back to name names without making a case again? Where is that elaboration on a TinVision bandwagon you could go for?

What elaboration? I've already said that I want to hear more from him and that a bandwagon would achieve exactly that. What more are you expecting?

Do people not even pay attention to what they post? Here is what you said again.

ok, Tinvision. He's not made a great number of post this game, but his few posts have contained many tells:

Agreeing with the majority without expressing any new opinions.
Giving weak reasoning for significant BW votes.
Joining several of these large BW's (including the one on Fonz)
Lurking in plain sight.

Generally strange behaviour.

Unvote, Vote: Tinvision

I could go for a Tinvision bandwagon.

Not least because it would get him talking.

But Battle Mage... why did you name claim?

I bolded the relevant part for you. "Not least", indicating that getting him talking was a top reason to vote him, but "not least" also implies

other

reasons. So, come off those other reasons. Or is your vote basically a "random" vote to spur discussion? If not, let's hear what your other reasons are, and before someone else provides them for you.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm... Crub and Hacker both coming in from nowhere to defend BM... interesting...

Why is that interesting, exactally? I also think BM is looking rather pro-town at the moment, so I didn't really think it was epsecally interesting people came out and defended him. Makes me think you're trying to subtly imply connections here, in a way that feels just a little off to me.

fos:mariyta

Reread Crub's post Yosarian. It was rather strong for someone who wasn't involved in the discussion. BM may not have anything to do with Crub at all, but I certainly question Crub's motivation. If BM is looking very town as you say, then it makes me question Crub's move, when it looks designed to either setup a future attack on me (or feel out the possibility of a bandwagon), or to suck up to BM.

[Ectomancer]

My bad, you never voted or fos'd, which is even worse after declaring that you could go for a TinVision bandwagon.

Now, are you being deliberately obtuse? You specifically said that getting him to talk was not the least of your reasons to bandwagon him, so now come off the other reasons that are implied in such a statement. Otherwise you are just baiting a wagon, hoping to join it later when it gets going well. At that time, you can use whatever reasons everyone else is using to join the bandwagon and tada! You are safely on the wagon with that post to refer back to in case someone says that you were just hopping on opportunistically. And Dybeck,

I'm

not implying you have information that you aren't sharing,

your statement

said you have other reasons that you aren't sharing.
Are you now buying time to scramble and come up with something? If you had nothing to begin with, then say so. Say that the only reason you voted for TinVision was to get him talking, and your "not least" was a verbal slip and not intended to mean that you had any other reasons at all.

unvote; vote dybeck

for dodging the question.


@Crub - not enough of a motivating factor for you to leap to BM's defense, especially as the arguement was not weak at all. It demonstrated a pattern of behavior. In addition, I believe you already pointed out yourself that defending someone like that can be considered scummy. I quote you from previously, a quote that supports my questioning of your actions.

AMB's posts :
1. Random Vote
2. Defends Arafax
3. Defends Arafax
4. EBWOP
Although it's unlikely that scum partners would be so open about a relationship I still find this scummy.

FoS: AMB

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, perhaps I am being obtuse here.

I really don't have anything on Tinvision other than a desire to get him to post more. I've said this a few times now and I really don't know how much clearer I can be.

This is all a bit of a distraction from the fact that we need to be lynching Mariyta.

Thanks, I just don't like leaving what I see as ambiguous suspicions sitting out there unclarified. Give a fresh post on Mariyta's case?

unvote

I've always been voting Mariyta!

What is it with you and Ectomancer? Are you the stupid brothers? Does your role say that you win if you give dybeck an aneurism?

I actually LOL'd

[Ectomancer]

Come again? If you weren't being so damn evasive then I would have been done with that line of questioning 2 pages ago. I also think I've provided quite a number of opinions in this game. Quit trying to evade yet another request for you to provide some concrete statements. For instance, how about you describe what you mean by "general scumminess" in your vote on Mariyta? I also think TinVision asked you about Mariyta in comparison to TinVision and myself. Chattering on and never saying anything is "active lurking". Everyone else is just plain lurking.

[Ectomancer]

This entire game is about figuring out what motivates people to post what they do, when they do. Also, it wasn't craplogic, which is what makes it odd that you would speak up. Dont worry, I'm not voting you over it. I'm watching you over it.

[Ectomancer]

First your post about BM was definitely craplogic. You bring up a comment 5 pages and a day ago where BM (rightly) states that he didn't think Fonz was scum and instead suggests that we should focus on one of the other bandwagons. The fact that he doesn't want to bandwagon either of them now doesn't mean OMG he must be scumz it just means that there is new information in the game.

Why would I make an issue out of this? Because I'm tired of you confusing the discussion to the point that you have now.

There was no new information about those 2 players. Where do you get that from? Now your assessment of it goes from weak to craplogic? Why are you now trying to increase the severity of the assessment? To bolster what you are saying? Someone already spoke up and said that my statement had merit. Why are you continuing to argue about it?

I personally don't think I am confusing anything. I'm commenting and asking questions. I'm not willing to lynch someone because of general apathy in the game. My statements dont prevent anyone else from continuing a case against Sudo. So speak on!
For myself, I'll be looking elsewhere, regardless of how annoying it may be to people when I poke the rock they are under.

[Ectomancer]

Good luck with your bandwagon, scummers.

Can someone who isn't scum give an opinion on Dybeck vs Ecto/Mariyta please?

BM? TCS? AniX? Arafax?

Appealing to authority? Geez, you've got 2 votes...

[Ectomancer]

HH made sense to me. I think the incredibly preceding the far was overboard.

I should be voting GodOfWine, but I can't remember exactly why.

[Ectomancer]

Nice wishy-washy comments on his post there SirLags and Mariyta. A less non-committal response would have been appreciated.

@TinVision, I personally think that much of the hullabaloo surrounding TCS's joke post early on was just that. It might make a good reference later after more lynches and night scenes to go on, but for now I think that entire interaction is currently a null tell until more information arrives, and even then conclusions will be dubious.

You make a good point about his vote for Amb.

Everything after post #514 on by GoW all give me poor vibes. Post #518 in particular strikes me that GoW would like to convince us that we are back at the random vote stage, a place undeniably more advantageous to scum than town.

I didn't see the connection between GOW and HH until you pointed out HH's reply to GoW post #514. GoW's statement about HH seems like a belated OMGUS in that light, but that sure is a long time for that, so I doubt thats what it was. A more plausible explanation to me is that he remembered HH casting suspicion on him day 1 (that's what jogged his memory, not that he posted suspicion) and needed to start working a case against him for later. He couldn't do it on day 1, because then it

would

have looked like an OMGUS. If this is the case, then I would question why town would need to remember to throw suspicion on someone just because they said

you

were suspicious. Re-read post 725 by God of Wine and see if he himself was not the one "reaching incredibly far" to cast suspicion.

vote GoW

though I realize that my post #726 could be considered "fishing" for support, followed by this post as soon as I got it. If you want to counter-vote me for it, that's fine, but before that happens, I would expect to see an analysis on the entire interaction and not just a lazy one liner opportunistic vote.

[Ectomancer]

Nice wishy-washy comments on his post there SirLags and Mariyta. A less non-committal response would have been appreciated.

If you're calling it non-committal because I didn't vote him, then yes, it was non-committal, and it will remain that way. I agree with TinVision's assessment, but it's not strong enough to move my vote off dybeck, who I feel is a better choice.

No, I said it because you said you agree with Lagsy. In fact it would have been odd for you to vote after saying that, as Lagsy basically said he understood the point, but disagreed. That too would be ok, but after saying that you didn't agree with the case, you both indicated that we should keep GoW on the warmer. Well, is there a case to investigate or not? By saying you disagree and cutting off discussion on it, you are indicating that there isn't. But if we should look at again later, then there is something there, and why shouldn't we look at it now?

[Ectomancer]

Ok. I've just done a full re-read, jotted down notes about everyone, and far and away, the scummiest looking person has to be Sir.Laggalot . This is what I have on him in my notes:

Sir.Laggalot:Made absolutely no sense day 1. Pushed illogical theories. Made a completely wrong summery of the game and of who voted for who. Accused me and Vitiman R of being scum together for illogical reasons. Continues the accusation even after the entire basis of it (his incorrect “voting records”) was proven to be false. Speculated about which roles might be scum. Speculated about which role names might have which powers. Seemed overly convinced at the start of day 2 of the correctness of the “recruiting scum” theory.

unvote

vote:Sir.Laggalot

I still believe Sir.Laggalot to be a n00b and a less than gifted one to boot.

[Ectomancer]

Ok. I've just done a full re-read, jotted down notes about everyone, and far and away, the scummiest looking person has to be Sir.Laggalot . This is what I have on him in my notes:

Sir.Laggalot:Made absolutely no sense day 1. Pushed illogical theories. Made a completely wrong summery of the game and of who voted for who. Accused me and Vitiman R of being scum together for illogical reasons. Continues the accusation even after the entire basis of it (his incorrect “voting records”) was proven to be false. Speculated about which roles might be scum. Speculated about which role names might have which powers. Seemed overly convinced at the start of day 2 of the correctness of the “recruiting scum” theory.

unvote

vote:Sir.Laggalot

I still believe Sir.Laggalot to be a n00b and a less than gifted one to boot.

True, but that's irrelevent. The question is, is he a newbie scum or a newbie town? And while some of those tells any newbie could make (speculating in the wrong ways is a common mistake for newbies), the general pattern looks more like newb scum then newb town to me, especally the parts about the factually untrue posts and the way he appears to have more knowlege at the start of day 2 then a pro-town player would.

My philosophy on these types of players is that there is little reason to lynch them early. They look so bad that they usually get investigated/tracked/watched by the relevant pro-town roles, meaning we will get good information eventually on them, or we finally get to the point where they need to be lynched because there really is no better option. That point isn't day 2 in a 19 player game IMO.
Because that is my philosophy, I dont like it when these types of players are being pushed as a lynch early. Does it mean I am willing to treat SirLags differently than I would treat other players? Sure, but then I treat all players differently based upon what I know about their playstyle.

Yosarian, maybe to sum it up better I can paraphrase a quote I saw somewhere recently. "Never attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity or incompetence."
I don't think GoW is stupid or incompetent.

[Ectomancer]

@SirLags - I tried to be considerate in my terms, but sometimes it still doesn't come out sounding any nicer. My wife tells me that its a talent/curse of mine.

@Yosarian - I can see why you would follow that philosophy. However, if you are in a game with me, you wouldn't have to expose yourself to save a scummy looking newbie from an early lynch, because I think it is a scummy move in itself to lynch that newbie early and will fight to keep it from happening. Still, you can't count on someone like me being there to do it, so it makes sense for you to approach it your way too.

[Ectomancer]

Dybeck, when you ask for people's opinions as you have done a couple times recently, I would expect a better response than yours, especially when they give you straightforward comments like HH did. Your questions imply a desire to spur discussion. It would be nice if you participated in that discussion.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, you seem to be again seeing things you imagine to be "implied" in my posts that just aren't there.

You should settle for reading the actual words of my posts rather than trying to guess what I'm implying, at least until you're a slightly better player.

Last time it took about 4 pages to shut you up while you led the town down the garden path - any chance that this time will be quicker?

TCS, what's your read on Sir Laggalot? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

How about you give some actual opinions? By describing it as a "garden path", do you think you were somehow cleared of suspicion because I dropped the subject earlier? No, you've made certain that I will be recalling this topic to the table. I'm sure you look forward to it.

[Ectomancer]

@Yosarian - I can see why you would follow that philosophy. However, if you are in a game with me, you wouldn't have to expose yourself to save a scummy looking newbie from an early lynch, because I think it is a scummy move in itself to lynch that newbie early and will fight to keep it from happening.

Why is that, anyway? As far as I'm concerned, if any player acts in such a way as to make them more likely to be scum then to be town, they should be lynched, and it dosn't matter how new or experenced they are. Yes, towns will tend to lynch inexperenced players more often then experenced players just because they're more likely to make mistakes that make them look like scum, but that's not a bad thing so long as the town is focused on lynching scummy players and not on lynching bad players; in fact, it somewhat balances out the scum's general tendency to nightkill experenced players more often then inexperenced players.

You misinterpret the stance. Newbies act scummy all the time, and get lynched early all the time for it, and more often than not, they turn up town. That is my experience. Since the odds of town being lynched in a random selection is greater than the odds of randomly lynching scum, it seems to me the selection is about what I would expect to see on a random draw, making a newbie looking scummy a null tell. Therefore, you shouldnt lynch them early for it.

[Ectomancer]

My opinions haven't really changed. I still think Mariyta is the play, for all the same reasons. She's still lurking, and I haven't seen any reasons to change my vote. I'm putting out some feelers to see who her scummates are.

I think Laggalot is innocent because, as I've said before, I think I know what his role is.

No, I'm not going to announce what I think it is, but if you force him to a claim, and I'm right, I'll tell you what I think I know.

When I think I've figured out the other scum, I'll be sure to let you know.

Why would you say that to me? I'm the one who has been saying that SirLags isn't the lynch, and you quoted me on it. He isn't anywhere close to being forced to claim. Why would you make a statement like that, implying that he has a role special enough for you to have sleuthed out what it was?

[Ectomancer]

I'm writing my thoughts.

The fact that people are reading things that aren't anywhere in my posts is nothing to do with my communication skills, honey.

Right. The communication failure is coming from everyone else.

Let's see your try at explaining

why

your statement about SirLag

didn't

imply that he has a power role. Clearly the rest of us fail at reading comprehension.

[Ectomancer]

And now you are claiming a power role....

What is wrong with you?

[Ectomancer]

GoW, Tinvision had a number of points in his comments in italics in his pbp in post #728. Your response in #732 was less than adequate by choosing to also focus then on The Fonz vote. Of course the Fonz vote is easily defensible and I wouldn't be voting you over it alone. TinVision described a pattern of behavior in your actions om that post and I think you failed to address that at all. I also questioned the motivation for your overly negatively weighted description of HackerHuck's stated reasoning for one of his suspicions in your post #725. It looked to have motivations other than scum hunting.

[Ectomancer]

hmm. dybeck agrees with everything GoW has said? Maybe we should lynch him for inconsistency and crap logic instead...

Don't acknowledge reading what he said. It just encourages him to say something else ill advised.

[Ectomancer]

If Sudo was actually an idiot newbie, I think it would have been brought up earlier. I agree with TCS that it was a fishy post for exactly the reasons that MoS outlined: Realization of the possible use later. Sudo has been accused of so much sh*t so far (I think there was even a segment where about a third of the players listed him as most suspicious), that it would have slipped out by now. I think he may have sleuthily been trying to get amnesty for prior transgressions and a quotable excuse for later ones.

I did bring up Sudo's playstyle earlier, or did you conveniently forget? Trying to revive an old popular wagon with a weak stretch like this, while ignoring post #806 is why my vote is sitting on you. Try defending yourself instead of using the distraction technique of pushing another popular wagon.

[Ectomancer]

Name claim only please. No role claim or targets if applicable.

[Ectomancer]

Name claim only please. No role claim or targets if applicable.

?

What are you not clear on?

[Ectomancer]

I believe he wants to know *why*, because while I can see some applicable reasons to do it that way, you haven't named any of them.

Ahh.

Once information is out there, you can't take it back. I'd prefer to hear it piecemeal, even if it does drag out the process. I may or may not want to hear a role claim, depending upon which name comes out.

[Ectomancer]

Just a nameclaim does nothing for us. A nameclaim was an innocent lynch yesterday.

It was a Vanilla Town claim, not simply a name claim.

[Ectomancer]

I'd rather you not discuss what name claim would be most beneficial for him to claim. That's a retarded idea.

Agreed, discussing claims beforehand like that is not helpful.

Indeed.

I agree with Crub. I don't see how claiming pieces over time and claiming it all at once is any different.

If it doesn't make a difference, than you shouldn't have any problem doing it our way.

Check.

Indeed.

[Ectomancer]

It's a good note, but I've also known MOS to push early to lure the truly overeager out into the open.

It sounds like you support a name claim as well HH?

SirLags - if you have a case on someone else, then feel free to present it.

@Sudo - I don't think SL was dangling role bait in front of your nose. He appeared to be saying simply that he didn't see how a name claim at this point will benefit the town, not that he has "info" about GoW. If I'm wrong about that, Lags, wait until someone gets into a more dangerous position than being asked to name claim before feeling like you need to speak up to "save" them. Either way, don't confirm my interpretation one way or another. Just show us that elsewhere that our eyes should be turned to instead.

[Ectomancer]

You know something we don't, Laggsy?

Oh ffs now he's rolefishing.

Can we pretty please lynch him already?

I'm not ready to lend my support, but nearly ready to remove my objections.

@dybeck - Since none of the 6 votes on GoW are "protown" in your opinion, let's see your suspicions on, oh, any of them for example.

@Mariyta - No support from me at this time for dybeck. I'm leaning more towards

incompetent

naive than scummy.

[Ectomancer]

Why have we not lynched Mariyta yet??!

It's purely because every time she runs the risk of further showing her colors, she goes into hiding! Is this really all it takes to fool this town??

I echo these sentiments.

Yet I wonder the same about GoW.

[Ectomancer]

Mariyta - welcome back to the game. Missed you hun. It's about time you scummers started contributing again so people will lynch you at last.

Yosarian - I agree with you that GoW's play was ridiculously poor. But do you actually think he's part of a scum team - or is your vote because you just think he deserves to die for such a lousy play?

GoW - you've really let yourself down, dude. Lynching players you know to be protown is not cool.

Hate to admit it, but i think i was wrong about you. This post absolutely stinks of informed-minorityness.

Unvote, Vote: Dybeck

I honestly don't get what you mean. To which part of this post are you referring?

He's saying that in addition to Laggsy, you are now saying that there are other players that you know to be protown after only 1 night. That would imply that you know too much.
At least that's my interpretation of BM's statement.
If his point is to be taken, it would mean that your earlier hints and implications that caused everyone to back away from you would be called again into question and it would be time to press you on them.
I'm not entirely certain I agree with BM that now is the time to pursue those questions.
I'm going to

unvote

because I'm not ready to lynch Marko, but Im wondering what the odds were of this many early claims being from that particular group. I think for certain though that all of them will need to be revisited from time to time.

[Ectomancer]

I don't have any info about GoW - what made you think I did?

I wasn't that hot on his wagon, but that's about it.

We know. People are still seeing things that you never said.

[Ectomancer]

Well... you tell me... what part of the post you're both referring to even remotely suggests that I have info on any of the players I mentioned?

I think I've danced that tune with you often enough. You should find another partner.

[Ectomancer]

Unless it is a safe-claim...

This is not the response I was expecting to see from a Town aligned vamp.

FoS:BM

Crub doesnt say much, but when he does

[Ectomancer]

I believe the lynch of David demonstrated that "vamp in movie but not in game" is

not

a safe claim for scum to make (seeing how how turned up town). In point of fact, if there were to be 2 "vamp in movie" safe claims for scum, I would nominate Star and Laddy. I certainly don't feel like testing Star (you really shouldn't have claimed), but if there is a safe claim, it wouldn't be the main vamp group for the very reason that we lynched David. Claiming those roles isn't exactly "safe" until something like that happens.

I change my mind. The claim was out of place back then, the role isnt

exactly

what BM thought it was, seeing as he didn't watch the movie, meaning he only thought he claimed what everyone else was claiming. If there are safe claims, then Star would be a great one for a mod to choose, because even if you claim it, Star was a "good guy", unlike Marko, Paul, David, and Dwayne who were definitely bad guys and would never be a good choice for a safe claim.

fos BM

I never liked your claim, and this idea of safe claims being in the game would explain why you eagerly jumped out and claimed when it looked like your "safe claim" was being legitimized in game with the the vamp claims happening. I don't buy that you did it to "confirm" Arafax's claim since Anix had already done that in a far better manner.

[Ectomancer]

I believe GoW's claim. I think we should be looking elsewhere at the moment.

Btw, BM's claim isn't the same as everyone else's. Star is a good vampire in the film. She helps the good guys.

I think I said that a couple times now throughout the game, including in my last post, unless you were just trying to emphasize this point?
I swear when something like this happens I wonder if people actually read what is being posted or whether they just skim

[Ectomancer]

I believe the lynch of David demonstrated that "vamp in movie but not in game" is

not

a safe claim for scum to make (seeing how how turned up town).

Well, as we've had like 5 people claim that, I think it's pretty obveous that they're not ALL scum. But if a large percentage of the town are people who are vampires in the movie but not in the game, there's no reason the mod wouldn't give one of those names as a safeclaim to one of the scum.

I believe that I agreed with you when I said that Star and Laddy would be the most likely of those movie vamps to be given as "safe claims" for scum. This whole discussion is why I am now bringing up BM again to the forefront of discussion. I thought that his claim was uncalled for/out of place when he made it. He really wanted it known that he was part of the movie vamp/game town group. Taking the opportunity to give his safe claim when that group seemed to have a free pass might have been his motivation. Just an fos here, but it is another piece of the reasoning as to why BM's claim can't be trusted as a town one.

[Ectomancer]

I'm going to

vote: ectomancer

at this point. I really, really don't like this setup speculation anymore. We need to focus on reading out scum.

When new information becomes available to clarify an issue I had earlier I am going to bring it up and discuss it. I did not vote BM, I gave him an fos for suspicious behavior back then and new discussion that would help to explain his motivations. Call it a marker if you will. I see a couple people thought it was worth more than an fos, so my point was not frivolous.
I am not ready to lynch GoW and his claim, without a counter-claim is the reason. It is apparent that by doing so, I am buying into the notion that Flay did not just drop all the names randomly into a hat and draw them out, randomly assigning roles. I tie Marko to David, and there is no scenario in any of my speculations that say that lynching him

today

would be a good move.

[Ectomancer]

I believe the lynch of David demonstrated that "vamp in movie but not in game" is

not

a safe claim for scum to make (seeing how how turned up town).

Well, as we've had like 5 people claim that, I think it's pretty obveous that they're not ALL scum. But if a large percentage of the town are people who are vampires in the movie but not in the game, there's no reason the mod wouldn't give one of those names as a safeclaim to one of the scum.

I re-read this again and I think now I see your point. Even though a large part of David's group could actually be vanilla town, the mod could have held 1 of them for a scum to use. The fact the David's group were bad guys means that the claim wouldn't actually be safe to use until someone else in the group was lynched/died/investigated and shown to be town. I just don't give it that high a probability.

[Ectomancer]

Mariyta dislikes me?

or is it just OMGUS?

I thought I was the dislikable one
I did think your vote on me was a bit of an OMGUS.

@TinVision - Can you tell me why you still believe that GoW should still be lynched today?

[Ectomancer]

Me claiming will only be bad for the town.

If you're not going to claim fair enough. But how are comments like that good for town?

Cmon, I'm really not wanting to lynch you today. What are you doing? Back at your initial claim, you say you claimed to try to save someone you thought was town. This was based around him claiming vanilla, and I think it was Arafax who had also originally claimed vanilla. If you had something other than a vanilla role as well, why would you name claim in support of David? Just because you are saying that both of you were movie vamps but town here? Anix had already come out and said he had a similiar role. So really you added nothing.
Now you are responding to MOS as though he was trying to force you to roleclaim, when I didn't get that impression at all. I'm really curious about you now.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: Quoted Crub but was addressing BM, missing a QFT.

[Ectomancer]

Quit your OMGUS. I smelled ulterior motives to your actions and when you see that, you go looking for scum. You confirmed that I was correct that you did indeed have something else going on other than a simple claim to try to protect The Fonz.
Don't come after me because I was right.

[Ectomancer]

Quit your OMGUS. I smelled ulterior motives to your actions and when you see that, you go looking for scum. You confirmed that I was correct that you did indeed have something else going on other than a simple claim to try to protect The Fonz.
Don't come after me because I was right.

You may have been right, but that doesnt indicate your innocence. All it does prove is that you are guilty of taking information and jumping to the wrong conclusion with it. Had you kept your mouth shut, i might not have had to claim today.

BM

Had you even half-assed bothered to defend yourself you wouldn't have had to claim either. It was lazy play on your part that led to your claim, not my scumhunting.

[Ectomancer]

Also, I'm getting even more red flags of GoW (now Dasquin). Seems like a strange time to quit- couldn't handle the pressure, perhaps?

Perhaps!

I'm thinking of asking to be replaced at this point.

Perhaps!

I chuckled

[Ectomancer]

yes i only have 1 buddy. 3 guesses as to which character it is. lol

Oy... you shouldn't have done that.

If there is any adherence to theme at all there is only one character who would be a mason with Star. It's not exactly a big surprise.

[Ectomancer]

Woot, I was reading a great book all of yesterday so i had to catchup. Welcome Dasquian, (Yay, now i don't have to go back and reread why i had GoW's vote).

I am not liking BM's claim, Although i do believe that Star would be a role, the Mason thing is kinda weird. Having to find their partner seems kinda off to me.

So yea,

Vote BM

Don't like this at all. Sir.Lag, BM has claimed to have a mason partner who can confirm him. Scum doesn't do this, it's way too risky.

Sort of like Dasquian so far. He makes some good points.

Much as it is nice that you have so much faith in me, this post seems a little off. I mean, scum can claim mason, and as my mason buddy hasnt come forward to vouch for me, it is fairly acceptable for some people to doubt my claim. You seem to have significant confidence in me telling the truth, yet i havent really confirmed myself-just claimed something which adequately explains what might appear as strange behaviour.

BM

Nice summary.

Does your role PM place any doubt on your mason partners alignment?

[Ectomancer]

i dont think so, no. I cant really see me having an anti-town mason partner, who i have to find before i can talk to her. rofl.

"her"?

o.O

Some of are women in real life sweetheart. I don't bandy my gender about, but some of do know what the skinny is in RL.

[Ectomancer]

Does anyone else get the feeling that there is a lot of town v town finger pointing going on in this game?

I do get that feeling and it's got me wondering which way to look next. Of course, my cult hypothesis would gain credence from that feeling if it were true because on Day 2 it would only have had the opportunity to grow by 1 member, meaning that many interactions literally

would

be town vs town. My gut would tell me that we could likely have 2 informed minorities, but no kill last night does not lend support to that hypothesis at all. It could mean that at this point we could have a very small informed minority. However, a scum group could easily have opted to no kill last night to lend credence to a cult recruiting theory. That would probably lead to a gentle push for a lynch of the claimed vanillas from David's group. I think we got that from someone today actually , I'll have to go back and see who it was.
At this point I think the push to drive the lurkers out of their dark corners and into the public forum is as good a move as any. The lurking, as already acknowledged, is a playstyle for some people and a null tell in most cases, but it is time to get some concrete opinions on record.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty, the next prod goes out to Anix, who has not posted in almost 2 months now. That qualifies as MIA, not lurking

[Ectomancer]

LOL

You two sound like an old 40's movie.

Dasquian: Something's goin on around here and I'm gonna get to the bottom of it. <points at Sudo> You there, start talkin.
Sudo: I got nuttin to say.
Dasquian: Nuttin to say ehh? Well we'll just see about that.

Dasquian, without saying what it is you want to hear about, you may as well have said "Hey Sudo, say something townie."

Sudo, if people just want to hear something from you without being specific, there are a few "contributory" posts you might make. I put that in italics because while they are always useful, sometimes people will make them to be "helpful" or to avoid a lurker tag. In this situation, content is being demanded, so whatever you choose would be fine.
Do a point by point. With 45 pages you would do more of a summary of major events as you interpret how they happened.
Give a short analysis of each player in the game, or in one this size, choose a group to do for a specific reason.
Give a town/scum scale and where each player falls on it in your eyes.
Give us your top 3 suspects and why.

I'm sure you could come up with something along those lines to contribute. I'm not a big fan of "I have nothing to say" either.

[Ectomancer]

Don't forget that Arafax was the first, unprompted, to out himself as a vamp.

He did this without any knowledge that others were pro-town vamps.

wouldn't that just make a cult more likely to recruit him, since this point could be brought up if people attacked him?

The hypothetical cult that we have absolutely no evidence of, that exists in the town where the vampires aren't scum. I'll pass on that as a reason for a lynch, thanks.

We've seen no vampires, at least I haven't. Do you know something that I don't?

[Ectomancer]

David was a town citizen, not a vampire. Marko has not claimed to be a vampire either. Star has claimed to be a Mason, but I didn't hear BM say she was a vampire. I believe that everyone has claimed to not be a vampire, or said they had a similiar role.

Are you a vampire?

[Ectomancer]

I don't think anyone is saying that the hypothetical cult can only recruit people who were vampires in the movie.

Actually, a lot of people have suggested that, MOS. It's all speculation now, of course.

I posted about that actually, and as MOS has said, it was a logical progression that led me there. The wiki on cults, which was last modified by Mr. Flay (even though it may have just been a copy/paste) says that one of the criticism's of a cult is how difficult it is to balance. That led me to state, that if there is a cult, it is probably limited in some manner. A restriction involving a limited recruitment pool has been used previously in other games, and with the theme in this one, movie vamp/game vanilla looks like a good fit for that group.
Now, the entire deal is speculation. If true, I could only imagine the cult recruiter grinding their teeth right now as almost all of the recruit candidates for him are exposed. A boon that he has found people that can be recruited on night 1, a curse that we know about them too.
If you were to look at yesterday, Arafax is the only one, if all speculation were true, that would be a surefire recruit last night. (David lynched, Star not in that group, Anix didnt claim anything except "similiar role" and Marko didnt claim until day 2)

The problem is, that is an incredibly shaky house of cards to build a lynch on. It is speculation derived from speculation, even if it is based upon a logical progression.
The other possible speculation is that group could really be vanilla town, there is no cult, and we are chasing our tail over it. However, as I pointed out, the no kill last night is an item that needs a proper explanation, or that speculation has a flaw.

Right now, I think that an Arafax lynch is 50/50 for merit. It is one that could possibly provide some concrete fact for us if he did turn up a cult member. However, if he doesn't and is still vanilla town, it could hurt us in more ways than 1. First, we lost a town member, second, it would damage the cult theory enough that we might not be able to test it in a less speculative situation later. The argument would be "we already lynched Arafax over it and we were wrong so quit dragging it out again".

The question is, do we have a lynch candidate where the case is built much less upon speculation? I can only think of three. One is SirLaggs who continues to make poor statements and votes. A newbie tag can only protect you for so much. The 2nd is BM's suspect for "knowing too much", and that is dybeck. To refresh the memory, dybeck implied knowing something about (Sirlags?) another player, and then did a similiar thing later about a different player, which is when BM called him out. The 3rd is Sudo, who is getting called for excessive speculation. Obviously I'm not the one to call someone out for that, plus I've seen others post against a Sudo lynch, so Im not up for that one today.

SirLags could be newbie scum. I think his record also shows that he could be dangerous to have around in the later game when his vote will actually make a difference and poor assessment skills will hurt us.

Dybeck, I wasn't ready to press earlier because everytime we did, he acted like he was about to claim and reveal some town secret.
Well, from the way he implied knowledge at first, I remember thinking that he was a possible Mason pair with them and backed away, because if so, dybeck was threatening to claim for 2 town members back then.
Since then however, BM claimed Mason. Dybeck did this on day 1, and we started in Day, so Im thinking a Mason partner would have been the only one he could have had knowledge about. Then there was the 2nd implied knowledge (IIRC it was something about voting for someone "who is obviously protown"). A quick re-read shows Dybeck's responses to also be minor scum tells when you consider emotional responses given, the tendency to label anyone voting or questioning dybeck as scum, and the classic "these two must be a scumpair" line (my experience has been that more often than not, the person making scum pair speculations early like that are scum themselves)
I think dybeck has implied knowledge long enough, and with BM's claim, one of the situations that would have made sense back then is now eliminated. Time to call your bluff.

vote Dybeck

[Ectomancer]

If you want me to reveal my thoughts on Laggalot's role, with my reasoning behind it, I will. You should know that it also involves revealing my role.

I don't think it would be smart. If enough people disagree with me, I'll blow the whole thing wide open. Although, as I've stated, I think this whole line of enquiry is Not Helpful.

My bad, it was day 2, it was awhile ago. So you could have had a night to "find" something on SirLaggs, but that still doesn't explain how on the same day you would also know that GoW is pro-town. Where are you getting this solid information from? If you don't have solid information, why are you pretending that you do?

[Ectomancer]

If you want me to reveal my thoughts on Laggalot's role, with my reasoning behind it, I will. You should know that it also involves revealing my role.

I don't think it would be smart. If enough people disagree with me, I'll blow the whole thing wide open. Although, as I've stated, I think this whole line of enquiry is Not Helpful.

My bad, it was day 2, it was awhile ago. So you could have had a night to "find" something on SirLaggs, but that still doesn't explain how on the same day you would also know that GoW is pro-town. Where are you getting this solid information from? If you don't have solid information, why are you pretending that you do?

I just read that as perhaps saying that some part of Dybeck's role flavor made sense with Sir Laggalot's claimed role.

I can see that. I'm afraid also that it being day 2 diminishes my argument a bit too much for a vote.

unvote

fos dybeck

[Ectomancer]

I can see that. I'm afraid also that it being day 2 diminishes my argument a bit too much for a vote.

Don't let that stop you now... you've been on my case with far less than this since I arrived.

False statements like "Dybeck claimed Mason" and "Dybeck has claimed to have rock-solid information" do make you look scummy though.

No, what is scummy is quoting a segment of 2 sentences with a period in the middle of them and then acting like it is one sentence and then saying that sentence is scummy. That is blatant mischaracterization and it is fairly obvious that you are willing to stoop to shady argument techniques to try to gain a point in the discussion.

BM claimed Mason. Dybeck did this on day 1,

I did what now?

If you had quoted the entire thing, it was clear that "Dybeck did this on day 1" was referring to the previous 2 paragraphs talking about you getting ready to claim for 2 players in the game by revealing what you "know" about SirLags. And that sir or madam, was your rock solid claim of information.

Any other quotes you would like to splice together?

[Ectomancer]

If you want me to reveal my thoughts on Laggalot's role, with my reasoning behind it, I will. You should know that it also involves revealing my role.

I don't think it would be smart. If enough people disagree with me, I'll blow the whole thing wide open. Although, as I've stated, I think this whole line of enquiry is Not Helpful.

Tell me again that you made no such claim concerning SirLags role.

[Ectomancer]

If you want me to reveal my thoughts on Laggalot's role, with my reasoning behind it, I will. You should know that it also involves revealing my role.

I don't think it would be smart. If enough people disagree with me, I'll blow the whole thing wide open. Although, as I've stated, I think this whole line of enquiry is Not Helpful.

My bad, it was day 2, it was awhile ago. So you could have had a night to "find" something on SirLaggs, but that still doesn't explain how on the same day you would also know that GoW is pro-town. Where are you getting this solid information from? If you don't have solid information, why are you pretending that you do?

I just read that as perhaps saying that some part of Dybeck's role flavor made sense with Sir Laggalot's claimed role.

I went back and looked at this Yosarian. There has been a number of claims, so I thought maybe I missed SirLags, but no, I didn't. He has made no role claim, nor any hints either that I can find. In fact, the first mention of SirLags role at all came from Dybeck's first post where he said he thinks he can put TCS and SirLags on their roles.

[Ectomancer]

I do have an opinion on SirLaggalot's role, yes.

No, what you gave was a threat to the town. You were under pressure and so stated that you would "blow the whole thing wide open" in reference to yourself and SirLags. It was a threat that worked at the time because the rash of claims was getting out of hand.

I see no reason not to call you on your bluff anymore. Your method of defense has been to either threaten to reveal information that you say shouldn't be revealed, reflect a label of scum back to the accuser, or state that your words are being interpreted in a way you did not mean. I think anyone who does a re-read on Dybeck will see a pattern of scummy defensive behavior and statements.

vote dybeck

[Ectomancer]

Unvote, Vote: Hackerhuck

stop lurking!

Support of dybeck noted.

Say what?

[Ectomancer]

Guess it wasn't as funny as I thought.

Well I would say I didn't get it, but I didn't see a joke there at all and wonder if anyone else did. If even 1 other person out of 18 saw it, then ok. It was a joke. Otherwise it looks like you were floating something out there and then said "haha" when you didn't get a good response.

[Ectomancer]

SirLags, is Dybeck a good lynch or not?

[Ectomancer]

It's a sad fact of mafia that in the absence of any info, people will always go for the most vocal obnoxious person in the town.

Even lynched, I've done good work provided you take another look at HackerHuck tomorrow.

I don't think the most vocal obnoxious person in town is you.

I'm not impressed with your selection of HH to focus on for lurking when he is not the only one.

Do you have a better lynch than yourself or HH?

[Ectomancer]

I even condensed everything scummy he's done into a single post for ease of use somewhere back there.

Yeah, I wasn't impressed by a post by post play of HH votes either. That post failed. You were supposed to be showing how HH constantly was jumping on the weaker targets and didn't do it.
The rest of your posts were all concerning lurking. First one was, "HH is being uncharacteristically quiet". Your single post for ease of use was requested by MOS, it did not make your point at all, and it isn't a summary of scum behavior by HH. It was a voting record. After that your comments were all about how HH went right back to lurking.

If you want to make a case against HH, go for it, but I'm not interested in a lurking vote, nor a "case" that was put together simply because you were called on the carpet for making a statement that you then failed to back up.

[Ectomancer]

Im guessing SirLags may need a replacement or prod. He hasnt yet responded to my last question to him.

Tinvision's comment was well placed. I agreed with him, despite being the guy pushing on Dybeck. It isn't that it grew really fast, but I didn't like Arafax jumping on simply because the day seems to be dragging along and we don't have a lynch candidate that seems likely to go through. Interesting way to stall a wagon. I wonder if Arafax has the subtlety to have been after that result and thus phrased his vote that way.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, if this day is dragging along, let's cut to the chase and avoid the possibility of an "accidental" speed hammer.

It takes 10 votes to lynch. Ordinarily at L-2 or L-1 we get a claim (unless speed hammer occurs). If I see votes piling on rapidly near lynch, I will unvote at times to ensure that a claim is gotten. You want that to also give them the opportunity to claim information they feel town should have should they turn up innocent.

I wont lynch without a claim.

I also don't want to waste time today pursuing lynch votes to force one if the support just isn't there. If I were to take my time here, I would simply keep after the quiet player to chime in and vote or oppose the case, but it seems like you have to poke about 1/3 of the players here with a stick personally or you wont get a response from them.

So, let's try a different tact. L-1 right now is 9 players. If 8 other players besides myself feel Dybeck should claim and see if he can make that claim fit in with all the hints and suggestions he has made, then I request that Dybeck make it and not wait for L-1 to force it out.
Should that support not exist, then I will unvote and move along to more fruitful areas of questioning. Those fruitful areas will not involve any of the current claimants. I don't believe any of them are the correct lynch for today, including Arafax.

[Ectomancer]

So, let's try a different tact. L-1 right now is 9 players. If 8 other players besides myself feel Dybeck should claim and see if he can make that claim fit in with all the hints and suggestions he has made, then I request that Dybeck make it and not wait for L-1 to force it out.

Ecto, I know you're desperate to hear me spill some info, but if you think I'm going to spill it just because you and a couple of scummers make a three-man wagon, you are sadly mistaken. Stop fishing. Or at least make it a bit more subtle!

It was 6 votes until Arafax's manner of voting spooked the waters and still is 5 votes. I have no need to be subtle in pressing you for information. You have explaining to do for comments made during this game and you have not done it yet. I still believe you are the best lynch candidate for today, but there are some claims that could come out that would stay my hand. We are being pressed, apparently for a lynch, because I thought the discussion isn't actually lagging. Therefore, yes, I'm looking to shortcut the process with you and take a straw poll to see if support is there to get us to that point. If there is, we have enough players willing to lynch you or not off the basis of your claim. If not, this is a waste of time and I'd prefer to move along

before

we have a deadline imposed.

[Ectomancer]

That's a bad way to put that BM. I think it could be counted for a vote against Dybeck, putting him at 6 votes right now. I would unvote.

Claim count

For 1
Against 1

[Ectomancer]

I have the power to type the words to request anything I want.

[Ectomancer]

I have the power to type the words to request anything I want.

unfortunately you lack the influence to have those requests fulfilled.

Ahh but you have already voted, making your words hollow.

[Ectomancer]

I don't believe that every player other than yourself is a lurker. I'm after the opinion of everyone alive and that does include lurkers, yes.

[Ectomancer]

I don't believe that every player other than yourself is a lurker. I'm after the opinion of everyone alive and that does include lurkers, yes.

so you seek everyone's opinion, except for those who disagree with you?

Dont be a hater because you are irrited that you did as I requested before you realized it. Everyone means everyone.

[Ectomancer]

I'm also not sure why there's still much interest in an Arafax lynch. Although AniX made some good points, they mostly seemed to discredit Arafax's theories, rather than suggest him out to be scum.

Um, there's 2 votes on him.

I'm not sure why everyone felt the need to jump in and defend him from a 2 vote wagon. You guys are making it rather difficult for me to pressure him into explaining his odd recent actions.

It's because all the cool kids were doing it.

unvote

[Ectomancer]

Pooky, I already pointed out the other possible scum group and it consists of 5 guys. They are Surf Nazi's 1,2,3,4, and 5 in the film. Their safe claim is likely beach bum.
It was never my intentions to have as many claims as we do on day 2, but since it happened, I have been systematically pressuring people looking for either one of these claims to put to the test.
A mass claim is not in order at all, but a systematic approach to forcing claims by pressuring the most suspicious player is a valid one to take.

So basically what I would like to have each day are not just one suspect being lynched, but a suspect being lynched combined with a designated vigilante target to give the suspect/vig target ample time to claim some kind of important power role.

Is this the plan you are asking for an opinion on? My question is, do you have a mafia watcher to take advantage of knowing where the Vig (should we have one) will go that night?

[Ectomancer]

I do however feel unsettled at the lack of a satisfactory mafia if all of the bad guys from the movies are just normal citizens in this game; beach bums mafia is a possibility but not a terribly compelling one.

Did you miss my post both times? I already gave a very likely scum group and it isn't beach bums.

[Ectomancer]

Actually there are enough peripheral characters to populate a town of 19 without including the Surf Nazi's. However, you would be very hard pressed to construct a scum group without making arbitrary ties between various roles. For example, you could tie Sam Emerson to the Frog brothers, but who else could you lgically add? Similiarly, you might put Michael, Star and Laddy into a group, but who else? Sam and Mom? Why? However Flay strung everything together, you would believe he has a story behind it.
Now Crub, this isn't page 1 or Day 1. We've had several claims and we've tested one of them, and a picture is emerging that suggests that we could possibly have a cult, but for certain, the film vampires (with the possible exception of Max) were not the scum group yesterday. Therefore, the mental puzzle becomes working out who the scum group might possibly be. A town size of 19 seems that a scum group of 5 would work nicely.

Cicero, there would definitely be beach bums in the game, otherwise it wouldn't make a very safe claim would it? Also, the Surf Nazi's were in the film, not a creation I dreamed would be dreamed up by Flay.

I noticed the trend in statements trying to hem us into believing that maybe the

only

threat we have to deal with in this town is a cult. Im not in that school of thought, and Im suspicious of anyone who is trying to push that thought while criticizing any speculation on who the scum group possibly be, if not the film vampires.

[Ectomancer]

I'd prefer to go scum hunting. I've seen reason to

suspect

that we

could

have a cult going on, but there also is no proof at all. A no kill last night could

support

the idea of a cult recruiting, but any number of other things could have happened, from a doc protecting, to a roleblocker blocking the killer, to scum deciding not to kill last night simply to push this cult idea to the point of ignoring looking for a scum group.
So, until we have definitive proof that a cult does exist, yes, a scum group of 5 is no problem at all.
I admit, right now it would be 1 beach bum + 5 Nazi's + 13 major roles, unless there are major roles that did not get used, possibly reserved as safe claims.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto Nazi's as scum group I feel is a real stretch. If there is a scum group I'm more inclined to believe it's as Dasq pointed out ... just a general mish-mash of characters. You might be suspicious of anyone pushing the cult but I'm definitely suspicious of your anti-cult stance.

Excuse me? I'm the one who first introduced the

idea

of a cult into this game in the first place. However, I'm not going to let the town run off on some foolish cult

only

hunt with no real evidence other than setup speculation and a no kill last night.

In light of Arafax's claim, I'm wondering if we have a cult here somewhere. Vampire's are a perfect cult vehicle. Drink the blood and join them.
If Paul is human right now, but was a vampire in the movie, I think in game there has to be a way for him to

become

a vampire. Also, if that is true, then I think that he very well could be town as of this moment.

That would deserve an

unvote

.

I've got to read up on how cults work myself, but Im assuming that even if Arafax is town today, he might not be tomorrow?

The entire Surf Nazi conversation arose because Dasquian couldn't figure out a satisfactory scum group. They fit perfectly. Not necessarily what Flay used, but the scum group possibilities exist, meaning that Pooky, Cicero and now your apparent push to soley pursue a Cult is entirely bunk.

I'm going to go with Dasquian and

vote Pooky

for that very reason since he was first, though Crub is just as deserving of a vote.

[Ectomancer]

mod

Crub voted for me, not me for myself

[Ectomancer]

I would like to

FOS: everyone on the Pooky wagon

.

@ Ecto: It doesn't matter whether there's only a cult or anything. I'm of the opinion that all we are dealing with is a cult, since there was no nightkill last night, but I suppose anything could really be going on at this point in the day. Back to my point however--it doesn't matter. We need to lynch someone who we think is anti-town. I still think Sudo_Nym is anti-town. I am suspicious of you (Ecto) and Mariyta for latching onto wagons that I think are targeting obv-town players.

I will remain voting Sudo_Nym in the hopes that you all will come to your senses, but I will switch to an Ecto or Mari wagon if only to avoid deadline lynching someone whom I think is innocent, or a no-lynch.

I think your pro-town/anti-town radar is jacked up. I'm also getting tired of this "obviously town" bullshit people keep using. If you've got something solid to state, spit it out, but quit trying to say that your opinion is a fact without backing it up.
I dont know if you are dense, but my point is that solely looking for a cult is bad play. By jumping on me for voting Pooky for doing that, you are going against your assertion that we should be hunting scum, and not focusing on finding a cult recruiter

that we don't even know exists

.

Since you are so hot on volunteering wagons you would happily join, let me add my name to yours TCS.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, I asked Pooky a number of probling questions which he answered to my satisfaction. What do you make of his answers and why do you find them scummy. Please remember that I was out in front poking lurking Pooky and getting him to contribute in the first place.

You asked some general question to the town at large if I remember correct. If Pooky answered them for you, he did it in the midst of his grand proof that we have no mafia and the only sensible thing to be doing at this point is look for the cult recruiter. With no evidence of this, and holes in his asssertion that there is no possible way we could have a scum group, I would say that is scummy behavior.

[Ectomancer]

Go back and pbp your questions and what you say are his answers to them and I'll address that, otherwise I explained why I placed a vote on him.

[Ectomancer]

I find this cult "tunneling" equivalent to someone trying to tell us that we should be targeting the SK today. Not only are we guessing at its existence, I doubt anyone could tell me what the D1/2 tells are.

The tells supporting the existance of a cult on d 1/2 you mean? Indirect support exists and I could lay it out for you, but as I said, that same indirect support could be explained by other scenarios that don't involve a cult. That's why I agree with you that convincing the town that we should narrow our searching to cult hunting is ridiculous. Just be aware of the possibilities and go from there. The only "cult hunting" lynch that would make sense to me right now is Arafax, and that is off the basis of his latest behavior coupled with the fact that he would be the only real likely cult recruit suspect from N1. It would be the behavior I would vote for though, and not the chance to test a cult theory exclusively. That's why my search has been for a likely scum group other than the vanilla movie vamps we have. I believe that acum group would gladly push the town on a cult only hunting expedition and so when I see people doing it, yeah, that's a tell I'm looking for. It deserves my vote.

[Ectomancer]

Don't be an asshole. You referenced "some pointed questions" and when I scanned back through your posts, this stood out as your questions, and I really didnt see Pooky address them in particular.
As I said, if you want something specific answered, ask it specifically instead of vaguely referring back to something posted in the last 56 pages. Understand? If you want to get the answers you want, ask the question properly, or quit getting pissy when your vagueness gets you nothing you were after.

OK... Things to consider.

Why is VitaminR voting Tinvision? He makes no case at all for this.

Why are Sudonym and Dasquian voting each other? OMGUS?

Why is Pooky voting Battlemage?

Why has Pooky never given us the in depth he promised me long long long ago?

Why has Yosarian kept his vote on Dasquian post claim when most others have shifted?

Why did the Sudonym wagon crumble? Just because I thought he was noob town?

These questions need answerin'. I'm sure there are others.

[Ectomancer]

If you had referenced those 2 posts in the FIRST place instead of that vague reference I already mentioned, then I would have gone DIRECTLY to those posts and commented. As it is, it is very evident that I HAD to go back and look in order to find that big list of questions in the first place, so quit your moaning and saying that I didnt bother to go back and look. I did and that's what stood out.
But instead of clarifying, you chose to be a jerk.

Now you are the one who completely missed the fact that I

did

reference his answers and dispute their validity in the very next and subsequent posts. Did you not even catch the fact that in his defense he says "If I were cult" blah blah blah? It isn't cult members who would propose solely focusing on a cult hunt, it would be members of a

scum

group pushing those 2 ideas, 1 that there is no possible viable scum group, and 2, that we should focus exclusively on finding this entirely speculative cult. Thus he has garnered my vote.
Next time you want a question answered, ask it specifically please instead of vaguely gesturing towards the last 56 pages of posts

[Ectomancer]

I referenced them in 1384 directly. You came back in 1391 quoting the wrong post. so you clearly arent reading carefully.

And you can quote 56 pages of text all you want. There is a drop down menu at the bottom there where you can look at everthing everyone said a player at a time. Pooky has only posted two large posts. I dont think you'd have trouble finding them.

Seriously, get over it. You referenced them in 1384 AFTER I asked you to clarify with a pbp, I THEN posted the quote that I ORIGINALLY found that I THOUGHT you were referencing so that you would know where I was coming from when I say that if you want answers to SPECIFIC questions or posts, then ASK for them up front instead of the vague reference you made.

If you dont do that, you are not going to get the answers you want, and it has nothing to do with the person who makes an attempt to figure just what you are getting at.

Pooky has my vote right now. If you are quite done with this pissing contest, jump on or move along, but quit moaning over the fact that you were vague and those are the types of answers you will recieve when you are.

[Ectomancer]

His putting it out there doesn't deserve action, the fact that other people were buying into it does. Its a bad suggestion and needs to be derailed. His plan, vote on him.

My approach to scum hunting is as valid as any. Pressure the scummiest you find until they squeal. If they don't squeal properly, lynch them. If you don't like it, feel free to pursue your own.

The result of a Mass Claim? Why, are you asking for one or suggesting that I have asked for one? Or are you simply curious as to what we might gain or lose from such a move?

[Ectomancer]

I also don't like how MoS attacks Mariyta for her reponse (I assume at least) yet he ignored Dybeck for doing the same.

Uhh, HH? You *do* realize that I've been suspicious of dybeck for quite some time, right? I was voting him for a long while until I got tired of Pooky's lack of contribution. Now I see Mariyta doing something scummy, so I put pressure there as well. But I already voiced my suspicions of dybeck, I'm too lazy to point out every single thing he does unless he is my main target.

Which was what? You never said anything; you just voted for me. That in and of itself is scummy.

Not really.


@cicero - It's the path taken. A systematic approach of pressuring the scummiest players garners information along the way that can't be gained by simply looking in the back of the textbook for all the answers. In addition, the actual target of the moment cannot be determined without the consent of approx half of the remaining players. Consent being gained by cases being presented to prove they are currently the scummiest.
A mass claim is a poor decision if only because mods specifically design games to prevent a mass claim from being able to gain a win for the town. Towards the endgame, it does have its merits at times, especially with a game with a lot of informational roles where activity and targets claimed as well can catch out scum in a lie. Right now we are certainly no where near that point.
This particular game is unusual because by now we would have lynched more than 1 claimant and not be in Day 2. Still, the principle is sound and so I've continued to pursue it. In this atmosphere with a deadline approaching, it has gotten chaotic as everyone is more focused on getting their pet peeve lynched. I'm going to

unvote Pooky

as that vote was put there to deter anyone else from joining along with a cult only hunt, especially as the person who would make the most sense to lynch in that case would be Arafax, and I've already said none of the current claimants make a good lynch today.

I've wanted to lynch dybeck, (or at least press as far as a claim) but his consistency in style makes me wonder if his behavior is just that, playstyle. He would still make a good lynch today.

I have reason not to vote Tinvision today.

I have reason not to vote Anix today.

I have reason not to vote Battle Mage today.

I have reason not to vote Arafax today.

I have reason not to vote cicero today.

I have reason not to vote Crub today.

I have reason not to vote Dasquian today.

I don't think Pooky needs to be lynched today, despite the sinister motives that could reside in this plan.

I see no reason to lynch MOS. I've seen no suspicious behavior, just something that seems a bit off from his usual play. Could be real life.

HackerHuck and Mariyta are sitting on my favorite lynch candidate today. Neither inspire confidence from me despite that fact, but I'm content to leave pressuring them for another day.

Yos and VitaminR - Haven't garnered my attention at all, something I'll have to get around to, but not today as I doubt anything is there yet to poke at.

Sudo_Nym - I defended him early to prevent his playstyle from getting him lynched. It's been enough time now and I've not seen anything town from him, and just minor scumminess. Not enough to push for lynch.

SirLags - Another defended early to prevent "lynch the n00b syndrome". Havent liked a single post really, and I think will be a danger later, even if he turns up town. I dont think I'll ever get a solid "scumtell" from him because of the way he posts. A lynch I'll stand aside for, but would be tough decision as whether to vote him or not until later.

TCS - If Dybeck doesnt make a good lynch today, TCS will.

[Ectomancer]

So basically, you're not going to commit yourself to anything at all, but you've allowed yourself the opportunity to jump on any of the likely wagon and not get called on it because you've put suspicion on all of them in one post.

How scummy.

Geez Im so sorry Dybeck, you're right. I have been entirely unwilling to put any votes on people and have been entirely unwilling to make a case against anyone. Here, maybe this will make you feel better.
/sarcasm off

vote dybeck

[Ectomancer]

Your last post does still smack of somebody who's preparing to jump on any of a number of bandwagons if he thinks he can save his scummates from a lynch.

The fact that you've jumped on the current easiest one of those has not allayed my suspicions. However, I suppose that time will tell. At least you've shown some colours, which is helpful to the town whether you're scum or not.

Which scummates am I trying to save, and can you provide the links to me that show you that they are scummates?

[Ectomancer]

While I could see the merit in fast tracking on individuals, I'm not getting your push for a mass claim, or even a fast claim for those 3 people. I also disagree that Dasquian would make a better lynch than Arafax, and I've already said I don't think the current claimants make a good lynch today. The best argument to that effect is a cult, and we have no proof to go on that would convince me to test a 2nd claimed movie vamp today.
If you want someone else to claim though, get to creating some pressure on them as individuals with a case that convinces others to join you. We've still got plenty of time and I dont think we need to start getting nervous about getting caught out short of it just yet.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote: Hackerhuck

Your claim will do for today. It's not like Hacker is town. And if there's another cop, you'll get investigated and lynched tomorrow. If there's not, you'll investigate me and I'll get some peace and quiet tomorrow.

Actually, I'm going to investigate MoS so we know if we can trust him or not.

Shhh.

[Ectomancer]

Tinvision, Anix, and Sudo_Nym, could you unvote or choose a better target? I've chosen you 3 to ask because of your chosen lynch target. I dont think that any of them should be lynched today for reasons I already expressed.

[Ectomancer]

Crub unvoted and there is still a valid reason to test you, not that I would choose to do that myself. If Crub were still voting for me though, the vote would be a perfectly valid one for today as well.
What I dont agree with is lynching targets today that I feel would be another cult "test" by lynching either Arafax or Dasquian, and I dont think that lynching TCS would be a valid test of whether Maritya is telling the truth in her claim either. Maritya is speaking for TCS, so I think it should ride for now. Otherwise a vote is saying either you don't trust her claim, or you dont trust her investigation (sanity for Maritya or investigation immune role in TCS). Either way, I dont think lynching TCS today is a good move.

[Ectomancer]

A thought occurred to me in the last 24 hours since I've been pondering whether we should do a mass claim or not. And it's an argument against my own idea (which people don't like at this point anyway). As I understand it, Cult recruiters often have a clause that says if they try to recruit a power role they die. So role fishing could be a very important scumtell in this game.

Naturally that implicates me in the last few pages. Fine.

Who else does it implicate?

FOS: Ectomancer

Anyone else?

Just something for people to think about as the game marches on.

Most people consider rolefishing to be a scumtell anyhow, but I agree that if that mechanism exists to limit the cult recruiter, then it could especially apply in this game. The thing is, we got quite a lot of claims on Day 1 and the first was a vanilla claim. I offer that would probably be a point for me rather than against, as a recruiter wouldn't have to push hard at all with 3(?) vanilla claims alive that we have at this point. Now, you could finger me again because I'm saying we shouldn't lynch any of them today. I need to protect my vanilla cult recruits right? I would even accept a vote for that one.
But for my pressuring scummy people until they claim, I don't think an fos tied to being a cult recruiter really holds up here.

[Ectomancer]

Dybeck, do you see any reason to test Cicero's claim today? Do you believe it?

Can anyone tell me why TinVision has acquired the largest wagon?

@cicero - BM is correct in this case.

[Ectomancer]

Oh c'mon guys. BM and Dybeck, neither one of you knew that Cicero claimed Beach Bum?

Dybeck, do you now see why I asked you about testing cicero and whether you believe his claim? It seemed you were pushing him back there, and I wondered what you were trying to accomplish.

FYI, HackerHuck did make a good point about Crub. He was right in his argument of symantics with Cicero, which did give me a warm fuzzy towards Crub until HH pointed out that all he did was perk up to discuss game mechanics but hasn't really been seen to speak about in game points in the manner he just did with mechanics.

unvote Dybeck

for disappointing play that is a bit of a town tell for me for how it came out. Him and BM both.

I also asked about why the TinVision wagon exists, and Dasquian's response is about what I expected, because really nothing else has been volunteered.

[Ectomancer]

Please lay out the purposes of those FOS'd in light of our current situation.
6 votes on Tinvision with (I think) 12 votes cast. If deadline were now he would be lynched.

So, the 1 wagon voters could be there for a couple reasons:

Tinvision is scum, and 1 or more of them is scum, helping to promote a no lynch and save TinVision.

Tinvision is town and they could possibly know it after Night 1. They also would prefer a no lynch over lynching someone they know (or strongly suspect) to be town.

Null tell being on those 1 vote wagons then?

Also, could you explain your "Also TCS (investigation immunity?) " comment? You mean you are postulating that he might not actually be innocent because of investigation immunity? Where did you find that?

[Ectomancer]

Let him watch/track/vig who he wants. I dislike the directing going on.

BM unvote please. This is one where you are wrong. Outing his partner just to prove the claim makes as much sense as outing your partner to confirm yours, does it not?

Yosarian - This is not a valid statement for multiple reasons. Luckily his claim does not depend upon that fact. There could be at least 2 people who can verify his claim right now, and we don't need to ask them to do it.

The fact that there were no kills night 1 is in his favor though.

[Ectomancer]

7 claims, 2 soft claims and only 1 person is dead on Day 2 of a 19 player game.

If we pressure Dybeck, he may claim too, and I'm not even sure if I want it anymore. My radar reluctantly has been swayed towards the town side on him and I think a claim will result in a quick shift to another target, or he gets lynched because not enough time is left to make another wagon.

mod

can we get an updated vote count please? We need to see exactly where we stand here with this deadline approaching.

[Ectomancer]

Yosarian, I don't think we ask for TinVision's partner to claim to prove him anymore than we need to have BM's partner claim. To me, they are in the same boat, and saying that "Flay wouldnt do that" when talking about game mechanics, and then acting like that confirms a guilty is ridiculous action on speculation. (I realize Dybeck and BM believe that mechanic is some "proof" of guilt, not you Yosarian)

Neither popular wagon is one I can support for reasons. Looking at everyone and their contributions and my reasoning for

not

lynching someone before, I think that it is finally time to

vote SirLaggalot

That's our best lynch for today. His only defense before for his statements were that he is a n00b. Page 64 that defense cant hold up anymore, and he has become a lurker.

[Ectomancer]

Yosarian, I don't think we ask for TinVision's partner to claim to prove him anymore than we need to have BM's partner claim. To me, they are in the same boat, and saying that "Flay wouldnt do that" when talking about game mechanics, and then acting like that confirms a guilty is ridiculous action on speculation. (I realize Dybeck and BM believe that mechanic is some "proof" of guilt, not you Yosarian)

Well, I wouldn't say it's "ridiculous"; in my experence, when someone claims an overly complicated role with lots of wierd things going on, there's a higher chance they're lying (in this case, several different abilites, different unknown probabilites of each ability to work, claimed mason partner, and claimed seperate "pre-dawn" discussion period that apparently dosn't apply to the other claimed mason group.) It seems more like a role a scum would make up in his own defense rather then a role the mod would actually put into the game.

I just wish we had a bit more time to discuss this now. The more I think about it , the more I think we need to have TinVision's mason partner come out to confirm his claim, either now or tommorow. There's just too much wierdness here.

Ridiculous was from my perspective and I understand why it would not appear the same from yours or cicero's.

Cicero, that decision depends entirely upon who is on the lynching block. There are some people who could show up there that, for my opinion, a no lynch would be a better option. SirLags is not one of those players, hence my vote on him. I realize the witching hour draws near, but I think enough people are active here that it isn't too late to make a better decision (wagon) than TinVision or Dybeck.

[Ectomancer]

Cicero - vote Sir Lags please.

To answer the question, no SL has not claimed. The only mention of a claim was that Dybeck thought that he could put him on his role. Did you want to take advantage of this time to revisit that thought Dybeck?

Maritya - you already claimed TCS innocent from last nights investigation. Could you unvote please?

MOS - I like your post...tomorrow

TinVision wagoners - hop off, you can get confirmation tomorrow, or the next day.

[Ectomancer]

It means despite your cop claim, you cant be voting because you know for a fact that he's guilty.


TinVisions comments had not come out when I first asked you, rather poor retro reference there, but it still remains, that voting someone other than the major wagon, rather than not voting, makes it more difficult for town to get a lynch at deadline.

unvote SirLags

in view of TinVisions claim for him.

[Ectomancer]

Cicero, I explored the BattleMage wagon myself. You can go back and read my comments on him, his role, his timing in claiming, what his thoughts might have been, and why they were erronous. He even asked me to stop harping on him about not watching the movie. Still, I thought it better, with 19 players in the game at the time, to make moves to protect the identity of his partner in case he was telling the truth. He could always be tested later.

Dybeck, I think we're around 13 hours left till deadline. You don't have much time.

[Ectomancer]

vote Sudo_Nym

Your turn to sing and dance.

[Ectomancer]

Alright. Screw the deadline, Screw the claim.

unvote

vote dybeck

Now it just takes one more with the balls to jump on and we get his claim from the Mod.

[Ectomancer]

Remember when said we might not want SirLags to make it to the end even if he is town?........

[Ectomancer]

I think it's now 7 or 8 minutes until deadline.

Dybeck will be lynched at this point unless someone moves off his wagon. Any other vote moves will still result in his lynch.

No point in backing out now. Someone should just toss the hammer to avoid a no lynch.

[Ectomancer]

I thought he said Midnight Eastern? Isnt that in 4 minutes?

[Ectomancer]

Heheh, and Server time actually shows me that we have 2 more hours till midnight. Crazy Greenwichians and their time zones.

[Ectomancer]

vote Arafax

He was the only movie vamp claimed on day 1 still alive night 1 to be recruited. We've shown that there was at least 1 Beach Bum, we've had another claim BB, yet we have vanilla movie vamps claiming too. Those guys are my best guess for cult recruits. As I said, there has to be some mechanism to prevent a cult from running out of control, and a limited recruitment pool would do that.
Arafax would make a good test for that theory. Two things could make the results invalid.

1: I could be wrong about which group would be the most likely recruits.
2: The recruiter could have stayed away from Arafax because of the chance for him getting lynched the next day and proving a cult's existence if lynched. If the recruitment pool really is limited, plus bad things sometimes happens to recruiters if they pick the wrong player, I'm wondering if the recruiter could pass up the opportunity to get Arafax up front. After David came up vanilla, you would think it would be easy to keep people from lynching Arafax the next day, so recruiting him on night 1 wouldn't have posed much of a problem.

[Ectomancer]

I'm afraid that you are not confirmed BM, not even with the possibility of having a cult only, and not a scum group. Theorizing that movie vamps are cult material is also just that, a theory. It is entirely possible that after getting doc'd/blocked/whatever on night 1, that scum decided not to kill last night in order to direct us entirely towards a cult hunt.
That is why I suggest Arafax as the best lynch today. He was the only person known to be movie vamp during night 1. If he turns up innocent, then we give the possibility of a no kill by scum last night in order to promote the cult idea a bump up in the likely direction and we continue scum hunting, only without a deadline pressing us yet.

[Ectomancer]

He (Arafax) was the only movie vamp claimed on day 1 still alive night 1 to be recruited.

Did you miss Anix following posts after my claim?....The ones where he chimed in to say that he believed me because he had the same role?...Did you miss that Ecto?

I'm going to re-read a little more on Sudo....He seems to scared or something....Afraid to speak for fear of saying the wrong thing and being lynched...That makes me suspicious.

We've had a lot of claims and I'm still thinking that a mass claim would be good...I'd like to hear from Mari...And I am leaning towards a cult; not a lucky doc/rb/whatever or a "non killing group"

Au contraire, Anix did not claim the same role you did. He confirmed that he had a

similiar

role, as you well know. As I'm sure others can count as well as I can, that gives Anix a 1/4 chance of being Dwayne, 1/4 chance of being Max, and 1/2 chance of being either Michael or Laddy.
I know for certain that some recruiters can die if they choose the wrong target, and at the very least, if we are dealing with a cult, I cannot buy that the recruiting would not be limited in some fashion. Whether it is movie vamps, or death by choosing the wrong target, some limitation exists.

There is no reason for a recruiter to take a chance on trying out Anix with you sitting there. David was innocent, as the recruiter well knew, and as I pointed out, we certainly were not going to lynch another claimed movie vamp on Day 2, especially when you were first to claim.

Setael - good intro post, though I have some reservations about the overall conclusion. It certainly could be valid though. I would like you to respond to my response to Arafax about Anix if you would please. Also, are you sure I wasn't suspicious at all? I really prefer it if scum feel as though they can get a lynch on me.

Cicero - Setael made a good case against your predecessor, then you, and now your responses nearly had me move my vote. I still think Arafax would make a good test case today for the cult theory.

Tinvision is likely not scum. You'll have to look for it, (I wont point it out for you) but there is support for his claim. Of the Mason pairs, I would say that BM's is the most suspicious, especially with TinVision's claim plus the rest of the reasons I believe I already posted (still unsure about 2 mason groups, even if there are 2, I doubt the alignment of at least 1 member of either Mason group)

P.S. - I hit refresh after this and noticed Cicero had responded since I wrote this. That last response was much better. Good luck with the Law. I'm certain that playing Mafiascum could be written off as "research".

[Ectomancer]

Anix is being Anix.

I also know that he would be careful with his choice of words in that day 1 situation. It's why I talked about it back then. He gave just enough to support Arafax without revealing which of, at that time, the other 7 movie vampires that he might be.

Your case begins to make decent sense when I crunch the numbers. If the recruiting were limited to the 5 "bad" vamps in a 19 player game, it might make it particularly difficult to get a decent one going if early lynches removed them from game AND a recruiter had to find them. 7 or 8 possible cult members could possibly make better sense, and yes, the number of claims works against us to a degree, however if the target pool is limited, and we figure out what that pool is, then we are at an advantage, especially if there is no additional scum group.

Anix has claimed Michael. When I said 7 or 8, Michael was the subtraction. Star and Laddy belonged to the group and slept with them, while Michael had not joined and still went home, despite drinking the blood. Seeing how Michael resisted the Cult in the movie, I could definitely see him as being unrecruitable.

[Ectomancer]

Not only was Maritya not a movie vamp, she also has a power role, which means that the cult recruitment was limited in a different fashion, which Maritya seems to have revealed for us. The targets have a choice of sorts to join or not. Very interesting and very evil of Flay. I knew he wouldn't have a normal cult.

Crub is not the Cult Recruiter.

[Ectomancer]

Anyway, I really doubt now that we're dealing with just a "cult leader" here. No way is there just 1 bad guy in a large game if his only power is to bite people who can then choose to not even join his scumgroup.

A good point, and a possible conclusion, but HH has a good one too.

However, I'm not entirely certain that everyone bitten has the same ability to remain a half-vampire like Mariyta. Otherwise, it would be a little too easy for all the "recruits" to remain half-vampires while we hunt down the master biter.

unvote Arafax

Your argument that being the obvious choice makes you a bad choice wins the day when recruitment doesn't appear to be limited by flavor or role.

[Ectomancer]

LOL, I just realized that if HH's statement was wrong, and all recruits

did

get a choice, it would be a good motivation for Yos to make the statement that he did in order to avoid a movement towards figuring out a plan to find the master biter.

What a crazy game.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: If Yos were the master biter that is.

[Ectomancer]

You didn't say that there isn't a cult leader, you doubt we are dealing with

just

a cult leader. A very important word for interpreting meaning there. I took it to mean you think there is either another scum group somewhere, or the cult leader is more powerful than a traditional Cult Leader. The former interpretation could be used to press for focus on general scum hunting as opposed to Cult Leader specific hunting.

[Ectomancer]

You didn't say that there isn't a cult leader, you doubt we are dealing with

just

a cult leader. A very important word for interpreting meaning there. I took it to mean you think there is either another scum group somewhere, or the cult leader is more powerful than a traditional Cult Leader. The former interpretation could be used to press for focus on general scum hunting as opposed to Cult Leader specific hunting.

Actually, my hunch was that there was already some kind of vampire "group" at the start of the game, rather then just one single lone vampire cult leader. The two suggestions you make are possible as well.

HH's theory, that "lesser" townies without abilities might not be able to resist becoming vampires, is interesting and fits the flavor, but if that was true, then there probably should have been a kill by now from whoever got "bit" night 1, right? Unless a roleblock or a doc or something happened, of course.

Correct, we don't know what happened night 1.
a: There could have been a recruitment.
b: The recruiter could have been blocked N1 (Doc'd? How would that work? Not saying it wouldn't.)
c: If a recruitment happened N1, the recruit could have been Doc'd/blocked last night in addition to the targeting of Maritya by the Cult Leader.

[Ectomancer]

If that person exists, I would like them to state so today. It will be possible to clear another person of being the Cult Recruiter.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto - was you saying that Crub is not the cult recruiter some kind of soft claim? What was that based on?

What exactly is your problem?

vote cicero

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto - was you saying that Crub is not the cult recruiter some kind of soft claim? What was that based on?

I'm pretty sure he just meant that if the other person who got bit claims, then we'll know that person is not the cult recruiter.

I find it hard to understand how the line "Crub is not the Cult Recruiter" can be interpretted as "The person that got bit night 1 is not the Cult Recruiter".

I don't think I hemmed, hawwed, or stuttered. If I had wanted anyone to know today what that is based upon, I would have said so.

[Ectomancer]

I had a thought this morning (after a severe lack of sleep involving an imagined frightening letter of absolute nonsense...).

We are assuming someone got bit last night. What if only power roles can be bitten? We didn't have any power roles claim yesterday, did we? I haven't reread, but I think it was just townie claims. If only power roles can be bitten, then it would definately be in someone's best interest to force them to claim, thus making me the first "casualty," if you will. I'm definately not saying this is absolutely the case. It's just something to chew on.

Well, we weren't assuming someone got bit last night, you kinda told us you got bit last night. Perhaps you did mean N1 then?
Masons are considered Power Roles in my consideration, and the Frog boy sounds like a great one with multiple roles.

Do Recruiters turn up guilty? You think from the scene at the dinner table with Max, the answer would be no. It makes me wonder why CR chose the Cop last night.
Perhaps recruits (ones that have killed) DO show as guilty. That would make this a good prep target perhaps.

Everyone, also please be aware of the numbers game. Maritya did not say she has a time limit to join, and also implied that if there is a N1 recruit, they seem to be waiting to make a decision. That tells me that it might be possible to switch at anytime during the game. That's troublesome for a number of reasons, Maritya being only part of the problem. We are on a very, very tight deadline. Obviously we aren't at lynch or lose (are you crazy Ecto, LYLO already??), but that actually isn't far enough away for me.
Assuming a recruit per night, by day 4 we have 3 potential recruits out there. If we lynch wrong today, and no kill tonight, that leaves us with 16 players right?
Now, we lynch wrong again on Day 4. Down to 15. Night 5 all 3 targets make their kill, turning into cult and removing 3 more townies, down to 12 players, CR recruits, bringing the total to 4 cult, 1 half-vampire and 7 full townies on Day 6.
Do you see the problem? We actually arrived at it

before

Day 6 dawns, and we are on Day 3 now.

Just be careful. We could be closer to a loss than we think. I almost didn't bring up the numbers, but it wasn't made clear by Maritya whether the Cult Recruiter could communicate with

her

through the mod before she makes her kill.

[Ectomancer]

Before you decide to kill?

[Ectomancer]

Ok, maybe I'm playing this too close to the vest. I'll say it straight out.

The Cult Recruiter

has

to get me killed if his targets are willing to stick with the town and suffer whatever consequences Flay has in mind. If nobody speaks up, I will have a possible Cult Recruiter name in my hands. If someone does speak up, I can clear another player of being the Cult Recruiter.
I need protection.
I am also verifiably not the Cult Recruiter.

I'm also saying this out loud to convince the first recruit that town has a really good chance of pulling this off with me in the game. If you join us, and reveal yourself, I can clear another player from night 1.

In addition, it came to me that a possible "suffering" effect could be silencing as they are fighting the "change". I'd like every player in this game to post in reply to this request in at least 2 sentences in case of some other type of posting restriction.

Also, I would be careful of targeting a known or possible recruit at night. They may not be able to control themselves and kill you.

[Ectomancer]

Dangerously close to rolefishing there. I see no reason to give the mechanics involved in making my statements.

Cicero claimed Beach Bum, a known safe claim, therefore also a possible scum, but not necessarily a CR. Possibly a backup recruiter if the first were lynched early? He could also be a Beach Bum.

I see no reason why Yosarian would be a better pick than several others.

[Ectomancer]

And I still don't know why Ecto is voting me when I'm fairly certain she is fairly certain I'm not scum. Voting me to bully me never works. Trust me. So don't bother. I'll just make it my business to piss you off more. It's the kind of asshole I am. In every game.

I love it when people tell me that my move wont work on them, after it already has. You don't get wine without squeezing some grapes my friend. It doesn't matter about that quality so much, as long as I get some.

I'm afraid that your reply was laced with WIFOM, blame the town games, and professed ignorance for my motivations when I'm certain I've laid out my case quite specifically for you. Are you my top lynch target for today? Perhaps not, but you are my current one while the town and I discuss the latest developments.

[Ectomancer]

Thanks Dasquian.

Tinvision is not the Cult Recruiter.

As before, the mechanics for why I can say this with certainty should remain hidden, I know someone feels that it is fairly obvious, but I think I know what they are thinking about, and will just say there is more than 1 possibility.

[Ectomancer]

lol your ability works on the night where your result is already laid out for you. Isn't that convenient.

Dude, go back and read the thread before making comments like that.

The only reason I can think that you would be attacking Tinvision's claims, targets, and results is to prove that you are the "real" Mason pair. If you are really a Mason pair and town to boot, why would you be attacking someone whose claim is verifiable and has already been partly confirmed by me? Why would you respond to him, and nothing at all that I said?

fos BattleMage

unvote Cicero

for today.

[Ectomancer]

Holy cow man, how can you say that it doesn't make your comment any less true when you don't know what

IT

is?

[Ectomancer]

Setael, you asked me if I thought there was a scum group. I refused to answer because I am not convinced that all of my information needs to get out just yet. Sometimes I don't know why until later. Here's a couple thoughts.

I realized that the Cult Recruiter wouldn't know if one existed either. That would be some information they might need as well.

I also realized that we assumed you to be in the clear, as you are TCS and his investigation turned up innocent.

That does not necessarily mean that you are cleared of being the Cult Recruiter. As related earlier, the dinner scene with Max makes me doubt whether a CR would show up as guilty when investigated.

[Ectomancer]

I forgot to ask you Setael, how do you respond?

[Ectomancer]

@MOS: Battlemage was a claimed Mason. In my opinion, his bandwagon wasn't going to lead to a lynch so it was a distraction. I made it my job at the end of the day to bully and herd people to a lynch so that we could avoid a no lynch. I pushed and bullied you -and anyone else I could - as necessary to make that happen. And I'm glad I did.

And yet you feel that you had the right to berate the town for lynching 2 townies to date? What happened to being glad about what you did? You are willing to take credit, but not blame?

You try to point out contradictions in what I was saying but none of them are real

I would say that is a glaring contradiction in behavior.

[Ectomancer]

As for my hesitancy to join a wagon. I thought it would weaken what I was trying to do. Since I was pushing heavily for a lynch over a no lynch I wanted to make it clear that I wasnt pushing for any one lynch in particular. It was being deferential to the wisdom of more brains with more experience then mine. I was more willing to join Dybeck's then some others because I had already suspected him. Basically I wanted people to choose from the established wagons because those would have been the cases that received the most attention.

Appeal to authority and another confession to being unwilling to make a commitment. If you are town, why would you leave the decision to a group of people that contain a scum group or cult or something else that

isn't

town? Why would you later feel comfortable in criticizing the town for their lynch choices?

[Ectomancer]

Emotional responses? Failure to acknowledge the logical case against you? Calling people bully's when you get pressured? My only motivation must be that I am pissed off?

You don't have the capacity to inspire anger in me where this game is concerned. A word of advice, try providing answers to the questions that are asked of you and stop worrying about whether you look like you have another agenda.

Vote cicero

for being blatantly scummy, contradictory, and for claiming the easy out (he claimed beach bum, no? If I'm wrong about that, I'll retract that statement.).

You'd think you would have learned something from Dybeck. Apparently not.

WIFOM.

[Ectomancer]

Actually no, you didn't answer my questions. Posting words does not equal answers Cicero. I didn't ask for the mechanics of what you did then, or what you are doing today. I asked directly for answers to these 2 questions:

If you are town, why would you leave the decision to a group of people that contain a scum group or cult or something else that isn't town? Why would you later feel comfortable in criticizing the town for their lynch choices?

[Ectomancer]

It was a swat vote, but only because I don't want to lynch you

today

. You continue to add to the case against you and at some point it grows to where I'm reconsidering whether

today

might make a good choice after all. (And yes, the manner in which you brought it up was suspicious to me.)

You disagreed with me? You mean you are saying that a claim of Beach Bum does not also imply that you could be scum using the "safe claim"?
We've already had 1 Beach Bum killed. Your assertion that it makes you more likely to be a Beach Bum makes even less sense than if someone said that it proves you to be scum. At the very least, if all you are saying is, "look, you could be making another mistake", that argument is WIFOM at best.

FYI, you chose an interesting turn of words in your aside.

(saying you knew Crub to be innocent)

You knew precisely what I said because you typed it out in the next sentence.

Nobody made you type "Crub is not the Cult Recruiter" out of nowhere.

Now, being the Cult Recruiter is far from being innocent. I know this because I chose my words carefully. Others may know this, being town, because we are still trying to determine whether we are dealing with a cult and scum group, or just a cult. In addition we know that saying he isn't a recruiter, doesn't mean he wasn't targeted N1 and could be our other possible Half-vampire.

A slip?


I'll give you that you feel those were good enough answers,

to those 2 questions

. (That's called Straw Manning as I'm certain you are aware) You still ignore the logical extension of your claim and the circumstances of it. (And by the way Setael hasn't posted yet, so hasn't even had a

chance

to respond yet. Reaching?)

What is the point in what I'm doing? You've asked me this a couple times already.
I'm doing what I do. I think there is a ton of information out there for town now. Most probably feel pretty good about me being town, and what I say is verifiable. (There is one exception to that rule, but it is looking less likely that exception actually exists)
There is a problem with you and your claim. That is my point. Your behavior and responses don't place them in a better light. That is my point. But again, I was not quite ready to lynch you today after looking at the cast of characters again. That is also my point by point of the fact that I don't currently have my vote on you.

What I suggest is that you begin scum hunting, instead of not making a commitment to a choice and bandying on about how you saved us all from a No Lynch. Instead of criticizing the town for lynching 2 innocent, how about doing some scum hunting of your own? Posting some drivel about town's scumdar being off is just that.

Now, would you like some more then? Ok.


Prior to Maritya confirming that we had a Cult:

/dance!

Don't necessarily trust me tomorrow! I'm a good cult candidate!!!!!

Screw you cult!

Anyone still of the opinion that we aren't dealing with a cult? :S

An odd indirect attack on Marityta, apparently chiding her because Dybeck turned up Beach Bum. A precursor to his defense of how bad it would be to lynch a Beach Bum.

No one targeted BattleMage last night, for what it's worth. I hope Mariyta has something useful to tell us.

I bet she still insists Dybeck is scum.

Reinforcing the Cult only idea, remember that we still don't know if there is a scum group or not:

Personally I think Pooky was right. There's a cult and just a cult.

FOS's me for rolefishing after admitting he does it as well. The difference is, read how often he digs for the

details

Does he really need them? (I'm not going to go finding all those quotes, this is long enough already)

A thought occurred to me in the last 24 hours since I've been pondering whether we should do a mass claim or not. And it's an argument against my own idea (which people don't like at this point anyway). As I understand it, Cult recruiters often have a clause that says if they try to recruit a power role they die. So role fishing could be a very important scumtell in this game.

Naturally that implicates me in the last few pages. Fine.

Who else does it implicate?

FOS: Ectomancer

Anyone else?

Just something for people to think about as the game marches on.

You'll also realize that I've never even come close to asking for a Mass Claim. I think he pushed for it, realized he slipped, and then "caught" himself.

Anyhow, I've only scratched at it for 10 minutes or so Cicero, working backwards from your newest posts.

You are a very very suspicious player. Don't think that you can dismiss a vote on you as an emotional swat with nothing else behind it.

[Ectomancer]

That whole sequence of quotes was an example of you appearing to "know too much" about the Cult, combined with scummy moves like requesting a mass claim. The entire thing was inspired by your attempted offhand dismissal of my vote on you. You've continued the trend.
Also noted is the continued use of scare tactics to prevent your lynch. If you don't invoke the name of Dybeck directly, you criticize the town's lynch record as a reason not to vote you.

@Maritya - I don't recall myself. But if you follow the link for David, it takes you directly to a townie page in the wiki.

[Ectomancer]

Saying that you only have evidence for a cult is far different than saying that we have a cult only. I'm certain that you understand the difference.

A valiant and worthy defense overall Cicero. I still believe you to be on the scummy side. But like I said, there are other players that I think bear investigating more than you.

[Ectomancer]

That could be a good point HH. Certainly when more people start getting killed off in some manner, it should be become clearer and we can go back and take a look.

[Ectomancer]

Yes. I did. Scummy behavor doesnt equal scum as we all know - especially given this town's record on scumhunting.

Quick question. You seem to be saying that we shouldn't be lynching on scummy behavior, and you, acting scummy, shouldn't be lynched, because thus far, the scummy people we lynched ended up being town? Is that what you are saying?
If not scummy behavior, what criteria do you propose we should be using today in determining our lynch? Time to put up or...well you know. Tell us what path the town should be taking instead.

[Ectomancer]

I am going to lurk for awhile.

[Ectomancer]

I already gave BM a hard time about not watching the movie. I haven't seen him post that he has watched it yet. If neither BM nor Dasquian has watched the movie yet (or don't recall those 2 roles), it would bear to reason that they would have the same reaction to an unusual claim that would make sense if you knew the 2 characters involved.

[Ectomancer]

Total Noob Question: What's the downside of having BMs mason partner reveal him or herself now? Seems there's much more upside to it for us now. I would be inclined to favor it.

What's the upside?