'The Lost Boys' Mafia (Cry Little Sister, it's OVER!)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

/confirm

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

vote Sudo_nym

Die scum Die!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

no reaction to my vicious assault on your character?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

damn you all

someone take me seriously

*pouts*

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh maryi!
how i've missed you!

and your daggers of hate!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

unvote

vote Anix

for reasons, he thinks he knows why, but he really doesn't.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

unvote

vote Sir.Laggalot

Getting along like good little children is TREASON

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

unvote

vote Sudo

phail

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yosarian! are you a traitor?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

unvote

vote Arafax

am i the only person who doesn't understand what he's talking about in his defense post earlier?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why not??

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

um.

when he asks Yosarian "why" he can be asking for many reasons

some of them are

1)He thinks fonz is town,

2)He thinks Yosarian is scum and wants to get his opinion down to attack it

3)He has no idea about what Yosarian is talking about and wants elaboration

When I ask him "why not?" I am asking him why he is questioning Yosarian's vote.

I generally don't like it when people defend passively like MoS did for Fonz because generally passive defense such as what he displays is a twofold move to gain the trust of the defended townie while also trying to look like he is paying attention.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

uh why are you voting arafax then?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Blood traitor!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Fonzie

Question:

Do you believe the Vampires have safeclaims?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You're from Texas? >.>

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Limited access currently.

I'm a little behind right now.

I've however C/Ped the entire thread into word and will reread it at my first opp. and post something more significant.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Sorry for my lack of posting.

internet in canada is more lacking than I expected.

vote Ectomancer

because I don't like his speculation on how the scum work, it reeks of TMI

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so my vote doesn't deserve either an FOS or a vote because?

are you fishing for an attack on me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I actually like Ecto's last post, BM's lack of choosing a target shows marked indifference in the lynchee today, a sign of a scumbag not caring which innocent goes down the drain.

unvote vote BM

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I never said I was absolutely certain that Amb, Mari, and Tin were all town. What I said was that your choice to say that we should merge wagons without putting forth a target implies that you don't actually care where the merged wagon lands, which seems to indicate to me that you are scum because I believe indifference to where the wagon hits is usually a scumtell exhibited when both targets are innocents since scum don't care which innocent gets lynched.

My opinion is that if you were protown, you would not be indifferent between the targets and have an opinion that one is more likely to be scum than the other as that is essentially what a townie is responsible for. Since you've shown an indifference that I believe is uncharacteristic of a townie, I believe you are scum.

Trying to put words in my mouth to make me sound ridiculous is a fairly silly defensive move, try addressing what I actually write instead.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am so confused

Dyb has one vote on him

why is he panicking?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so do we put a squelch order on him and move on?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

@TCS, do you think GoW is town?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Arafax, do you understand what a "safeclaim" is?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that was your long post cicero?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you wanna play a game?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I will contribute before this day ends btw.

I'm just having a major case of writer's block that's kind of more of a reader's block.

I promise I will make a siginifcant post soonish.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Ok, first off I'd like to apologize for my continued absence in this thread.

It's a mix of reader's block and strategic block.

I'll explain what I mean by strategic block, it's one of those modes I get into when I start thinking about a game strategically far too much and end up chasing my own tail in my head and when that happens I sometimes find reasons strategically for lurking that somewhat paralyze my actions, also there is a somewhat ethical concern also and I've finally resolved it.

I was fairly sure on Day 1 that we were dealing with a cult.(And a cult only)

Why? Because a player came out and claimed to be a vampire in the movie but a townie in the game, he was promptly backed up by another player.

Now if you look at the theme of the game and just look at the movie involved, think for a second who could possibly be scum if we had vampires being actually protown.

The character list is simply too shallow for any other group of players to be a Mafia Team other than the vampires. In a game of this size, you'd need at least 3-4 scum in a group for them to have any kind of chance.

Because the character list is so shallow that there is no real possibility for a bad guy group other than the vampires, and because I think it'd be frankly absolutely insane for a vampire scum to claim to be a vampire and protown considering that he'd look like a certain lynch if a scum vampire showed up dead and we're bound to hit at least one vampire eventually before LOL.

The nokill on night one only reconfirmed my suspicions.

Think for a second, who could possibly compose the scum team if the Vampires are not a scum team?

The answer is right there in front of you:

No One Could be a Mafia Team

Which leads me to the conclusion that we are hunting a cult leader(as opposed to a really powerful SK because 1 against 17 isn't really fair and the theme rather lends itself to cults)

What we need to do is to stop this directionless movement and quickly regiment ourselves to move quickly because time moves against us in a game against a cult much faster than in a game against a Mafia by simple mathematics.

What I propose is that we order our vig(should we have one, I suspect we do since it would balance against the Cult's growth power) to fire every night on our orders.

So basically what I would like to have each day are not just one suspect being lynched, but a suspect being lynched combined with a designated vigilante target to give the suspect/vig target ample time to claim some kind of important power role.

Also a cult plays much differently than a mafia group in the sense that a cult does not look for mislynches so much as it moves to protect one person, the cult leader. Very rarely will cult members distance from the Leader because it is simply too risky. As such I'd imagine the Cult Leader's play would be conservative, careful to move with the tide/staying out of the spotlight.

I also would believe that those who came under the heaviest fire are the least likely to be recruited on night 1. Cult Leaders don't want to recruit people who are likely to be killed tommorrow, they want people who are able to stay alive.

Basically I think what we need to focus on and quickly eliminate is the section of the town that is the blandest/relaxed. If we make it so that the cult can only recruit from active players who are into the game and constantly contributing, we will have an advantage because 1) if some1 gets recruited who is active and contributing, it is much easier to spot a difference in play between him and another player if his alignment flips. 2) An active player can't just shut up when he gets flipped, he must stay active because he'd be easy as hell to spot otherwise.

I would like to hear if you agree with my tactical/strategic views on the game before unveiling my picks for who I believe are the best plays for today/tonight for us.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

-By trust me, do you mean trust that I am innocent or trust my plans as I have unveiled them?

I believe firmly that you should trust my suggestions because if you look at it objectively, it makes a lot of sense. If you were to disagree with my plan, you would have to come up with a likely group of mafia which I think would be quite difficult given the theme and the claims so far. I believe that it's imperative that we move quickly and decisively against a cult that I believe is definitely there because there are so few alternatives.

The Strategy I've outlined and the reasons for each of my assumptions and why I believe they are true can be judged on their own merits.

My strategy makes sense, that's why you should trust it.

As for why you would believe me to be innocent, well it's fairly obvious in my opinion, if I were a cult member, it'd be fairly stupid for me to actually roll out this strategy. It'd be much easier for me to simply roll onto the easy bandwagons and play exactly the way I outlined, simply post enough to not be considered a lurker, contribute opinions that can't be held against any objective light and float through the game untouched. It certainly would've been smarter than pulling out a giant "look at me" sign like I've done and outline a strategy that is in my humble opinion, obviously better than this mindles footdragging that is currently going on.

When I said passive, I meant the type of player would is willing to not really develop any real case and willing to stay in the game by simply posting very little content while pretending to be still in the game, basically just jumping from 1 bandwagon to another without actually

caring

about who gets lynched as long as it is not him or his cult master.

Why do you think I proposed the plan?

Either

A) I am scum and I proposed it to get into the town's good graces.

B) I am town and I proposed it because it gives the town the best chance of winning this game and I am currently a member of the town.

Now consider Scenario A, what is the point of winning brownie points in a game that has a cult? I'll give you a hint, none whatsever, even if Town Pooky were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was town today, it would be worthless tommorrow because Pooky could be recruited tommorrow.

Scum Pooky has no incentive to try to get into the town's good graces because "good graces" are only "good" for exactly one day and one day is pretty much worthless this early in the game.

So if I were scum, I'd be trading longterm strategic advantage for the scum for a 1 day reprieve(which I don't even need considering the size of the bandwagon on me and the fact that I could've gotten by simply by posting once in a while and shifting on contentless bandwagons).

- I believe the could be limitations, it really depends on the game balance, I would believe that enough players could be recruitable that lynching the nameclaimed vampires would be a bad strategy. We really can't win against a cult by denying them potential recruits in a large game because balancewise, it would be unlikely that we could win that way.

-I doubt that a lucky lynch on day one would've ended the game, it's probable that the cult has some kind of mechanism to avoid a day 1 loss, I'd imagine some kind of power involving a sudden ending of the day by eclipse or sudden nightfall or something would be involved.

-I would like to see the reactions to my "plan" for hitting the cult quickly first before I reveal who I believe are the most likely culprits.

The thing about hitting a cult is that it starts out small, so it's far harder to hit, that and the fact that the Cult Leader will likely be recruiting away from the lightning magnets, does skew the metagame a bit.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've never even heard of a mafia watcher role before lol.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Tinvision is the better choice out of the 2 players, Dybeck might play a little shoddy sometimes but I certainly expect a cult leader to run alot more less abrasive.

Dasq/Ecto's reactions are interesting for this stage of the game.

I don't think either are cult, I think a cultie would not be able to reinsert himself as smoothly into the convo after a callout.

I think our best bet is to lynch/vig among:
Tinvision, HackerHuck, Crub and Yosarian2.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i fowgot

unvote

vote Tinvision

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's precisely my point Dyb,

He clammed up like a cat jumped down his throat when I brought up the cult idea.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

unvote

vote Laggalot

Vig Crub please

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i didnt read the last page

no laughing crub

unvote

vote Dybeck

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Wow.

Just wow.

Let me think this through.

I believe Mari on face value because it'd make no sense for her to lie, but this really throws a wrench in what I thought we'd be facing.

Like a giant 30 pound monkey wrench.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Considering that we have information that says the cult can recruit our power roles, I don't think massclaiming at this point would be wise.

If they hit our vig, we could easily be done.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Did we have our trackers give us tracking results?

Think Cicero, I wouldn't do what I did yesterday if I was in the cult, you can cry WIFOM all you want but the fact remains that I wasn't recruited last night, Mari was, and I have no reason to go after the cult if I was in it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And I don't like the way you've decided to narrow the list down to the unclaimed players, it has a feeling of you trying to turn the attention away from a wide swath of players in order to secure them

the idea that we have a cult that doesn't have safeclaims is ridiculous, especially considering that they probably will find out the likely setup of this game through recruitment.

Here's the thing, everybody can be recruited, nobody can be trusted, when you start going after a certain group of people for not claiming, you risk a cult running out of control if they take control of the segment of the town that you seem to have cleared of being the cult recruiter.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Look Cicero, just stop a second and look at that list of roles we've had claimed.

What do you notice is missing?

That's what I don't want being flushed out, especially when we have these power roles in the game.

Why do you think we have co-vigs instead of a single vig?

Stop, no don't tell me, keep it to yourself. Be smart here.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can you 2 watch each other at night?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

actually don't tell me.

just roll a d2 each of you, so that the cult recruiter has to think twice before attempting to recruit either of you.

have some positive percentage chance that one of you is going to watch the other.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What makes you think we haven't given your partner this chance?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am not it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Because I think too much.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What exactly do you want to know?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You said you wanted me to post... I assumed that you had something you wanted me to post...

Like what do you plan to do? Find out who is willign to vote me? See if the scum will vote me?

See if I bleed a certain way?

Seriously what do you want to know?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What do you expect to get out of pressuring me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think my posts have been some of the most intelligent in this game so far.

I think I've thought about this game to a certain depth that most of you have yet to think to.

So yes, when I say something like what do you want me to say, I mean what do you want me to post?

Do you want to know who I think are scum?

Do you want to know who I think have been recruited?

I've posted what I think we should do,
I've gone over the strategy I think we should follow,
I've even gone ahead and said who I think the cult leader should be.

What more do you want me to do?

Check in and say that I'm reading up? Make up an attack on someone when I think the current movement is going in a good direction?

Look, we are dealing with a game that has not had a single nightkill,
it started in day, we've had testimony to the existence of a cult, and the cult doesn't even recruit in the traditional sense.

So why do you think I'm worried?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'd be a terrible recruit, I have a history of being nightkilled/investigated. There was this one game where I got killed by a group of mafia and 2 cops on night one.

Yea that was fun

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You've clearly at this point forced my hand because I don't want my silence to continue to be the principle point of discussion. I've been lynched in several games recently as protown for actually pushing who I wanted as scum and I've regretted not pushing harder so I don't really feel like being inertia lynched after a while so I will take you through the rest of my thought process and why I didn't want to reveal.

The difference between hunting Mafia and hunting a cult is not just about the smaller group you have to hunt in the beginning but in looking at the

tactics and strategy

being employed by the cult.

Now in a game of Mafia, if Player A is constantly attacking Player B who happens to be Mafia, player B can arrange to have player A shot in the night in order to protect him, sometimes towns will not follow up on Player A's attacks after his death because they just don't remember OR because of the popular idea here that everything is WIFOM so you can't look at Player A's posts as a reason why he was killed since the mafia could be killing to frame player B yada yada. In fact in KingMaker II, we killed Thok at night because he had been HEAVILY attacking 4 out of the six scum or something like that, basically he was VERY on target and we were scared that his continued pressure would lead to some scum lynches, so we took care of him at night and NOBODY FOLLOWED UP ON THOK'S ATTACKS AT ALL! the scum ended up cruising to victory when they would've very easily been handidly smashed if the town had simply looked at who Thok was accusing of being mafia and acting on it. This is the reason I think WIFOM is way too overly applied on this site.

But now look at this game, what happens when the Cult wants to stop a player who is dangerously on track? Who is going hard on the cult leader? Protecting the Cult Leader is the Cult's number one priority, everything else falls short, what would happen is that those players who are on target would be recruited into the fold, and quickly would have their objectives changed to protect the Cult Leader. The same way as a Mafia protects its members by killing those on the right track, a cult recruits those on the right track, except its harder to see because we don't find a dead body in the morning pointing us in the right direction, that person instead is still alive.

So my plan was to wait for the days to go on and look at who is having a unexplained change of heart in their suspicions overnight, needless to say a wrench was thrown in this when mari said she didn't know who the cult leader was but I'd imagine a single cult in the game has to have some way of recruiting members who can know the identity of the leader and be obligated to protect him(possibly vanilla townie are instantly turned without choice? i dunno what the triggers would be) So basically what I was hoping for would be to look for people who are having unexplained changes of heart, if enough of them happen to have been going after Player A before changing their minds, I have a top suspect for Vampire Lord and I have a substantial section of his network exposed.

The reason that I didn't want to tell you all this was because I didn't really want the vampires to read this and change their behaviour accordingly.

I have 4 finals in the next week and a mountain of homework to go through, so I haven't exactly been examining the game as closely as I would've liked and my activity level will drop off due to these pressures so I'm sorry about that.

I really didn't want to be inertia lynched.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

When you move the meta away from recruiting lurkers by advocating attacking lurkers hard, recruitment should move away from Lurkers. Cult Leaders want to recruit lurkers because they have a good record of survival, but if I propose attacking them, that moves the meta for the Cult Leader away from recruiting lurkers. It's a helluva lot easier to see behavioural change due to cult recruitment from an active player than a lurker.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I reviewed the rest of your case against me,

The reason I lurked was because I had a specific plan for finding this cult, the plan involved looking for changes in behaviour over time and then matching those the prior suspicions. I believed at that point that it would be the best method for finding the Cult Leader and a significant part of his network, which is why I decided to stay back and let things go wherever they may because it is ESSENTIAL that I let people develop their own suspicions and attack on their own.

If I had decided to attack somebody else based on another method, that would decrease the number of attacks in the game because that focusses attention on me and the person I attack, so players might instead of posting their own suspicions be swayed by my case against someone and just fall in line. This town is very content to fall in line behind a bandwagon and if people just fall in line behind me, I certainly won't be able to pick out who changes his mind about his suspicions because THEY WONT BE STATING THOSE SUSPICIONS, instead of rereading the thread to find cult, they might just fall in line behind me. For my strategy to work, I need as many people working to find the cult leader as possible, that's why I specifcially separated myself from the cult hunt after putting you guys on that path on day two.

If I was very confident a player was a cult leader, I damn well would go hard after his ass 100%, but when I'm not that sure on any one person, I'd like to watch you guys chase and see what happens.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Because if somebody else hits on the cult leader and gets recruited and flipped and changes his attitude, I can call him on this and possibly get the cult leader lynched.

If I chase on the cult leader and I get flipped, who will be there to catch me flipping my stance?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

That's not the point I'm making at all.

You weren't actually looking for people who are flipping because if the town sentiment was to go after people who suddenly flip on conviction, the scum would not behave that way.

The point I'm making is that scum don't recruit people who seem to be doing nothing and could become the target of much scrutiny because they have better things to do with their recruitments.

Like if Player A is trying to run you up and Player B seems to have completely fallen asleep and not posted in god knows how long AND has been on the top of several player's suspicion lists would you recruit player A or player B?

You don't need to catch me flipping my stance because I wouldn't be recruited, just think about what choices the Cult Leader should be making.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The List(TM):

Sudo_Nym
Setael
Yosarian2
MoS
Ecto

I don't trust Ecto because I don't think it would be a balanced setup for us to be up against a lone cult(which seems to be the case) which doesn't even recruit fully each night when we have so many investiagtive roles/masons. But there could be things that we don't yet know about this cult.

I've been somewhat suspicious of Sudo/TCS from day one, Sudo imo played somewhat cautiously like he wanted to be extra careful not to fuck up, TCS was just all over the place.

MoS is one of those minimal contribution tag-alongs that can really be anything.

And Yosarian is Yosarian. He makes children wet their beds at night.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

@ Cicero, what inquiry are you referring to? Specifically, what do you want me to tell you?

@Ecto, this is how I work, I use the information I am given to work out what I think is plausible and what I think is less plausible. The information I have is that all things point towards a single cult, multiple cults wouldn't make sense flavorwise and killing groups wouldn't make sense in terms of night actions.

I also have played enough games with Flay to know that he's an excellent moderator and I'm also a good enough analyst of setup balance to know what would be balanced in a game and what would be not so balanced.

This isn't me using balance as proof of anything, I said it was one point in favor of you being scum, I've hardly touted it as conclusive evidence of your guilt.

And frankly speaking, if you are telling the truth, I would fully expect you to be one of the top choices for the cult leader to recruit.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

There is nothing that would make the CR not want to recruit you, the only thing was the off chance a fogg brother would've been possibly watching you, but we know the curfew lets the cult strike without fear of watchers so I'm tossing that out the window.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

do you think the fogg brothers would be considered essential personnel?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My interpretation of the Curfew was the same as Ecto's.

I saw it as something that would not be followed by the vampires(I mean honestly, how the hell does a curfew keep a vampire from recruiting?)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

A) I'm not going to be able to gather information if the town is going to sit on me until I talk so there's no point in me staying quiet on principle.

B) I'm sorry I'm assuming things that just make sense in terms of balance, I've been thinking quite a bit more about the game setup than most have and I've had quite a bit of time to think about it. I'm looking at this from a pure strategy viewpoint, balance-wise it doesn't make any sense for the CL to refrain from recruiting ecto which is why I'd imagine he would nor would it make sense for the Curfew to affect the Cult but not the Cop. I'm sure of these things just as I was sure of the existence of a Cult on Day 2, basically I am operating from one premise, "the setup must make sense given what we are working with"

@Cicero, there's a difference of nightchoices generated if we don't discuss vampire strategy prior to the night it occurs. If the vampires didn't recruit Ecto or one of the Foggs last night, I can almost confidently cross off quite a few players from my "possible vampire list"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My list is only CL based.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Does a setup where we're up against a single cult that has no ability to get rid of Cops make any sense to you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I really don't see the point for a massclaim.

But I will go along with it if you guys all want to do it.

There's a lot more i'd like to say, but i dunno how much longer my wireless is going to hold up

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am Shiva, God of Death.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

oh yea

cuz it makes sense the cult recruiter would have no safeclaim

*eye roll*

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

how r we handling claim order?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am a Surf Nazi, Vanilla.

I've been partying,

big holiday and what not.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and the bandwagon on me is baseless and foolish.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

There is no case on me.

Setael's post is a huge pile of WIFOM and I've done a damn good job of explaining why I've done what I've done.

I am the most likely innocent from a neutral POV out of all the claimed vanillas.

I want all those with votes on me to cite the reason for voting me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'll even break down Setael's case against me as to why it's all WIFOM/explained already.

Italics inserted inside will be my responses.

unvote

I'm not feeling the leading wagons. I'd vote cicero before mos, but the more cicero talks the less scummy he looks imo, so I looked into Pooky who at least has one vote. I was assuming he was town because of the long posts speculating about the cult, but the more I look at them the more I see a cult leader making those posts, especially after how many times afterward he said "the cult leader would obviously not make a post like this."

I said it because it's true, it doesn't make sense to make a post like that if you are the cult leader because it will draw a lot of attention to you regardless of whether the town buys into your "I'm not the CL" or not. The town will expect that a CL will try to get speculation away from a Cult being in the game, the best way for a CL to do that is to recruit the person making the most noise about it and hope a vig gets an itchy trigger finger. Why would I choose to put myself under that sort of scrutiny? The existence of WIFOM is a good reason why a good CL player would not choose to put himself there.

What we need to do is to stop this directionless movement and quickly regiment ourselves to move quickly because time moves against us in a game against a cult much faster than in a game against a Mafia by simple mathematics.

A statement like this I would expect pookyTown to follow up on, and keep pushing. He hasn't.

I've explained why I didn't want to take charge and push, I've explained what I planned to do and why I planned to do it. It's a damn good plan and it might've ever worked. In fact from my POV it's the best damn plan attempted by anyone in the town so far. Pretty ironic that I might get lynched for it even after I explained how my plan was supposed to work down to the tiniest details enh?

Also a cult plays much differently than a mafia group in the sense that a cult does not look for mislynches so much as it moves to protect one person, the cult leader. Very rarely will cult members distance from the Leader because it is simply too risky. As such I'd imagine the Cult Leader's play would be conservative, careful to move with the tide/staying out of the spotlight.

Interestingly enough, other than these 2 long posts which seem contrived to make us think he's not staying out of the spotlight, the rest of his posts have been one liners and since he made those posts he's been "careful to move with the tide/staying out of the spotlight."

I've explained the motivations for my play, I've hypothesized what I imagined the cult leader's play would be like, I did it for two reasons, one) because that's how I believed he would play, and 2) to try to get a playstyle shift from some of the players in the game to see who might change up their style. You'd be amazed at the response when you say something like "we believe the serial killer is wearing a red hat" to a room that contains the serial killer. Why the hell would i describe my own play to you guys if I was the CL? I stayed out of the spotlight and moved with a tide for a reason

Basically I think what we need to focus on and quickly eliminate is the section of the town that is the blandest/relaxed. If we make it so that the cult can only recruit from active players who are into the game and constantly contributing, we will have an advantage because 1) if some1 gets recruited who is active and contributing, it is much easier to spot a difference in play between him and another player if his alignment flips. 2) An active player can't just shut up when he gets flipped, he must stay active because he'd be easy as hell to spot otherwise.

Pooky has hardly been active and contributing. If he was a townie who really believed his post (rather than the cult leader writing it as a cover) he would be much more active than he has been.

I've made it perfectly clear why I haven't been as active or contributive

As for why you would believe me to be innocent, well it's fairly obvious in my opinion, if I were a cult member, it'd be fairly stupid for me to actually roll out this strategy. It'd be much easier for me to simply roll onto the easy bandwagons and play exactly the way I outlined, simply post enough to not be considered a lurker, contribute opinions that can't be held against any objective light and float through the game untouched. It certainly would've been smarter than pulling out a giant "look at me" sign like I've done and outline a strategy that is in my humble opinion, obviously better than this mindles footdragging that is currently going on.

This paragraph makes me very suspicious of pooky. He's smart enough to know that these posts would not make him look suspicious, but would do quite the opposite. They made everyone put him on the back burner as obvtown. I think the cult leader would definitely be motivated to write a post like this one and pull out a giant "look at me" sign as pooky says, since we'd be expecting the CL to lie low.

Oh right, and it also makes sense for me as a vanilla townie who is trying to trap the CL to get himself on the backburner and away from the public spotlight. It's the job of every protown player to not get lynched, saying that I tried to avoid lynch and stay on the down-low means I am the cult leader is silly because I have the same incentive to do so if I were a vanilla townie.

When I said passive, I meant the type of player would is willing to not really develop any real case and willing to stay in the game by simply posting very little content while pretending to be still in the game, basically just jumping from 1 bandwagon to another without actually caring about who gets lynched as long as it is not him or his cult master.

Once again, if he really believed this he'd be developing real cases rather than posting very little content. But he hasn't been. He's been passive and barely being in the game. Sure, he's not the only one. But the other lurkers didn't post a big case saying that lurkers should be lynched and "look at me posting this content. that means i'm not the recruiter." He's undone the cover he made for himself by lurking through the game and proving that he didn't really believe what he said.

I've already addressed the reason for my lack of contribution

Why do you think I proposed the plan?

Either

A) I am scum and I proposed it to get into the town's good graces.

B) I am town and I proposed it because it gives the town the best chance of winning this game and I am currently a member of the town.

Now consider Scenario A, what is the point of winning brownie points in a game that has a cult? I'll give you a hint, none whatsever, even if Town Pooky were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was town today, it would be worthless tommorrow because Pooky could be recruited tommorrow.

Scum Pooky has no incentive to try to get into the town's good graces because "good graces" are only "good" for exactly one day and one day is pretty much worthless this early in the game.

So if I were scum, I'd be trading longterm strategic advantage for the scum for a 1 day reprieve(which I don't even need considering the size of the bandwagon on me and the fact that I could've gotten by simply by posting once in a while and shifting on contentless bandwagons).

- I believe the could be limitations, it really depends on the game balance, I would believe that enough players could be recruitable that lynching the nameclaimed vampires would be a bad strategy. We really can't win against a cult by denying them potential recruits in a large game because balancewise, it would be unlikely that we could win that way.

-I doubt that a lucky lynch on day one would've ended the game, it's probable that the cult has some kind of mechanism to avoid a day 1 loss, I'd imagine some kind of power involving a sudden ending of the day by eclipse or sudden nightfall or something would be involved.

-I would like to see the reactions to my "plan" for hitting the cult quickly first before I reveal who I believe are the most likely culprits.

The thing about hitting a cult is that it starts out small, so it's far harder to hit, that and the fact that the Cult Leader will likely be recruiting away from the lightning magnets, does skew the metagame a bit.

The fact that he hasn't followed through with this plan and has just become inactive and given nothing but one liners really makes it look like his #A was closer, but not quite right. It was more like "I am scum and I proposed it to get players to think I'm not the cult leader."

Think Cicero, I wouldn't do what I did yesterday if I was in the cult, you can cry WIFOM all you want but the fact remains that I wasn't recruited last night, Mari was, and I have no reason to go after the cult if I was in it.

I would expect him to point back to that case as "evidence" he's not the cult leader at every chance.

Basically his case is full of things easily explained by my strategy this game, and things that I've done which are positives for this town which he's turned around and said "I think he's doing this because he's trying to get into the town's good graces". Frankly I think I'm in a catch-22 here, either I contribute and help and I'm labelled as a cult leader trying to appear helpful, or I don't contribute and help and I'm labelled as someone who doesn't care about catching scum. I've given damn good reasons for my actions so far this game, I don't know why Setael says in later posts that I do not address his case when my later posts clearly do explain the reason for my lack of activity and when the other half of his case is all WIFOM stuff attacking the motivation behind my posts which I really can't possibly address in any way that would be meaningful since it is all idle speculation

Feeling good about this one.

vote: Pooky

I will be back at UMich on the 2nd.

Yes our winter break only lasts 2 weeks, I didn't really have time to write that many posts, I've had quite a few parties to attend and friends to meet.

And I've put more damn effort into this game than any of you clowns.

So if I get lynched for it,

screw you, I hope the scum win.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

rofl crub.

SHIVA GOD OF DEATH

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So it's all WIFOM. I do something positive for the town, you spin it on its head and say I'd do it to not seem guilty. It's a load of crap, for example I could say YOU ARE SCUM FOR TRYING TO HUNT DOWN SCUM IN ORDER TO NOT LOOK LIKE SCUM.(Do you see for example how incredibly dumb this line of argument would be and how completely unproductive it is?)

Yes Setael, I've stated damned well why I have avoided doing something that can be construed as scumhunting, if you want to attack my reasons for doing that, then do it. Don't keep saying that I've avoided doing scumhunting, tell me WHY my reasons for avoiding scumhunting are bad ones.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Setael, where am I not making any sense?

Tell me what I've left unaddressed.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My char doesn't have a name

it's just "Surf Nazi"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I do not support a vig hit on MoS. This would limit the possibility of our vigs watching each other which i think up until now has probably kept the cult leader from recruiting them, I don't think that testing our town roles in this manner can be productive, I also don't like the two way logic being used here by some players.

The whole, vig him because he's probably the cult leader, but if he's innocent then the cult lost a potential powerful recruit line of logic is kinda bullshit.

I mean I can see you vigging him because you think he's been recruited, but vigging based on future possible recruitment? why not just watch him and find out who comes to recruit him?

I understand that we will need 2 lynches to kill MoS-recruit later in the game but think for a second who we are trying to kill, we are trying to kill the Cult RECRUITER. Once we stop the Recruiter, it's just Cult versus town, cult can't do shit at night. It doesn't matter if it takes us 50 lynches to lynch MoS-Cult Recruit after we kill the cult recruiter because the cult can't do anything to us at that point.

Our priority right now is to find the cult recruiter and nail his hide to the wall, not blow the crap out of potential future recruits.

vote Yosarian

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

no

that's not what im saying at all

im saying they should have a percentage chance of watching each other and a percentage chance of vigging someone. I'm saying they should definitely not commit to one action beforehand. and I am saying that MoS is a bad vig choice.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and when i wrote that earlier post, I had no idea that our vigilantes would end up exposed and also have the ability to watch.

Having 2 exposed watcher-mason-vigilantes is pretty damn different from when we had a possible vigilante in the shadows completely unexposed.

The change in my position is obvious to take note of the change in the game state.

You're better than that Cicero.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh really? I thought the Frog Brothers could talk to each other before making their nighttime decisions.

I do need a clarification on this.

My point is that our Watcher-Vigs are working at their best when

The Cult Leader does not know what they are going to do

We need the threat of possibly being caught by a watcher to dissuade the Cult Leader from taking our vigilantes away from us.

but lynching MOS really looks like a win-win to me; either he's a lying cult recruiter and lynching him is awesome, or he's telling the truth but was recruited in which case lynching him is at least useful in that it makes it easier to kill him later, or he's telling the truth and is pro-town in which case lynching him is useful in the sense that at least we know he's pro-town. Sounds like a win-acceptable-acceptable situation to

He tries to get pressure off him by setting up something that looks like win-acceptable-acceptable to us, except if MoS is protown, it is not acceptable to waste a lynch on him. We have only so many lynches before the Cult has a majority, I don't want to waste one on telling us what alignment MoS was yesterday, I want to lynch the damn CL and stop the bleeding.

He was on my list of suspects prior to the claim, now that I've had time to properly digest his claim and the responses afterwards, I've put MoS in my column of solidly pro-town players.

Frankly speaking, MoS-Cult Recruiter does not have the balls to claim something like this, I've played enough games with MoS to know what he will claim and what he won't claim, this is one of those things that I believe with almost absolutely certainty that MoS-Cult Recruiter would not have the balls to claim. This is just one of those things you don't do as a Cult Recruiter.

But wait you say, what about the fact that a cult leader would possibly have lynch protection?

This is the really easy part, you would have to be mindboggling stupid to claim lynch immune or lynched protected as a lynched protected CL because we have been speculating for a while about how to balance a game with only one cult in it. Lynch protection would be a pretty good way to balance it, combine that with the fact that we have vigilantes on standby and you can see that the last thing a CL with lynch protection would claim in a mass claim is a townie with lynch protection.

That combined with how fast people were to jump to calling for an MoS vig at night makes me feel highly confident that they are trying to set up a nightkill of MoS followed up by our vigilantes getting infected and flipped to the dark side.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

See when Yos says something like that, I think it's not only idle speculation but it's got a nice underlining of "yo guys, if we all killl tommorrow night, we will WTFPWN the town, LETS DO IT Cmon guys easy win"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

See that's what my problem with your logic is, if he is a cult recruit, then it doesn't matter whether it's EASIER or not to lynch him because our priority should be lynching the cult RECRUITER, not the cult recruits, when the recruiter is dead, it doesn't matter how many days it takes us to lynch a recruit, but when the recruiter is alive, he is actively recruiting so it DOES matter how many days it takes for us to lynch.

You can't talk to them during the day, for all I know you see some votes on you, you see yourself gettign strung up soon, you think your cult is close to victory and you are telling Mari or some of your other recruits 'OMFG WE ARE SO @#$%ING CLOSE TO WINNING, IN ONE FREAKING DAY I WILL HAVE THE TOWN BY THE THROAT AND DANCING TO MY TUNE, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU VOTING ME OMFG I HATE YOU ALL"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

are the masons guranteed masons?

This question is to both mason pairs, are you guranteed by moderator innnocence of your partner and truth of their role at the beginning of the game?(not throughout the game, just at the very beginning)

I know it's a tangent, I'm sorry if it was mentioned earlier.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ask the moderator if you have at the beginning of the game any gurantee of alignment or win condition for star.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If MoS isn't going to get vigged tonight, then I am less than happy. I really think his claimed role is sloppy and he is a good candidate for scum. Unlike Yos, I also think there is a chance that he is scum and has the ability he's claimed. Also, if he's not scum, there's a good chance he will be tomorrow, with the ability he's claimed.

Look Dasq

You don't make any sense at all.

If the majority of the town seems intent on having MoS vigged at night

it would be pretty stupid for the Cult Recruiter to try to recruit somebody who stands an excellent chance of being shot at night.

Especially when he can recruit those vigilantes who wont be watching each other at night.

Do you honestly believe there is a "good chance" that our cult recruiter is going to use his cult recruitment ability on somebody who is likely to be vigged?

The idea of shooting some protown player to prevent possible future recruitment is dumb.

Dasq is obvious cultie.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Why would they want to recruit MoS more than any other player?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've already explained this Dasq.

Because an unlynchable cultie would be quite a boon, no? Even if he got inspected and found evil, we'd waste time attempting to lynch him.

This is of course base speculation about the nature of the cult and its recruitment of power-roles. My point is still that MoS' role doesn't appear to benefit us whoever side he's on, even before you consider the appeal of him as a recruit or the likelihood of it being a lie.

One) He is not unlynchable, he says he has a one shot lynch immunity, unlynchable would be pretty stupid in a cult game.

2) WHy would we waste time trying to lynch a cultie? Lynching culties do not win us the game, lynching the cult recruiter does, we could lynch one cultie every day from here till the end of the game and still lose.

3) Once we've lynched the cult recruiter then we lynch the culties, but by then what does the cult do at night? Drink whiskey and sing kumbaya? Basically it becomes a nightless game after we nail that CR, at which point it doesnt matter if it takes one lynch to kill MoSCultie or if it takes 20 lynches to kill MoSCultie because the cult isn't going to be doing anything at night while we lynch him.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The following list only ranks who I believe is likeliest to be the Cult Recruiter, it does not rank them in terms of suspicion, I will explain each candidate's positioning.

List for Likeliest CR:


Yosarian
HackerHuck
Battle Mage
Sudo_Nym
Crub
Dasquian
AniX
Setael
cicero
Mastermind of Sin
Adel-Sir.Laggalot-Ectomancer
Arafax
Mariyta
PookyTheMagicalBear

Mariyta, Arafax, MoS,Adel/Laggalot are all purely claim based candidates. The idea of Mariyta being able to come up with a claim like "cop who was bitten by vampire" as a cult leader is just silly. I couldn't come up with something that good, which should mean nobody else in this game should be able to come up with anything that good.

Arafax's day one vamp claim was similarly ballsy and I don't see a CR Arafax making a claim like that. The Adel/Laggalot group is cleared from being CR because of their core character status + their masonship status + the fact this town needs a little power.

Ecto is similarly added with them due to the role block.

I've already gone over why MoS's claim is just one of those things you don't make as a cult leader, I don't see him having either the creativity or the balls to make a one-shot lynch immune claim as CR.

Cicero is right at the bottom of the non-role confirmed region because of his play, I just can't see Cicero being a Cult Leader and playing all out balls to the wall like that.

Top of the list:

Yosarian2:

The points I will make against Yosarian do not consist of all points I have jotted down against him, they consist of what I believe are the strongest points against him as well as those most easily viewable from a general perspective.

A) Lack of strategy/delayed strategy,

Yosa is an excellent analyst in terms of how mafia roles work, how cult roles work, what is balanced/imbalanced and what the optimal plays for pro-town roles should be in a game.

Having something presented to him like "We are Mason-Vig-Watchers" in a cult game I would expect Yosa to respond with something along the lines of "make sure you guys incorporate a chance of watching each other in order to deter the cult leader from recruiting you/possibly catching him in the act" or at least agree with me when I propose such a plan so that the cult leader feels more deterred from recruiting. The sense that I got was that Yosa felt something more along the lines of "damn that st00pid bear, always coming up with the right move I knew I should've recruited him instead of Mariyta, lousy worthless Mariyta spilling the beans to everyone argh argh argh"(Projected Internal Yosarian Dialogue Courtesy of "PsychicDar")

When he does mention that it's important for the Vig-Watcher-Masons to not let the public know what they are doing beforehand, it is way way after I've already shot down the "definitely vig MoS plan". After I pull out all the reasons why they should not definitely choose to vig MoS, Yosa basically echos me and says the same thing with the same reasoning except he doesn't say something like "I agree with Pooky that you guys shouldn't do this because of the reasoning Pooky stated" he says it all over again like he came up with it himself(which I imagine is possible if he had not read my post). But this is suspicious because if he had been thinking that, why would he not immediately follow my original post with a "I agree with Pooky, vigging MoS for certain is bad plan?" MY theory here is that Yos does not want to be seen as saying something like "I agree with Pooky on strategy issue X" while voting Pooky AND also because at the time of my post enough wind was blowing TOWARDS the vig MoS plan that he thought it was a real possibility that he could swing the bandwagon to LYNCH MoS, and then follow that up with a vig on MoS, which would give him not only a mislynch on an innocent that wouldn't work but ALSO set up his night recruitment of one of the Foggs. When public opinion began to swing against this plan, he switches to MY position and argues AGAINST vigging MoS explicitly on its own merits INSTEAD of saying that you should just lynch MoS.

The difference here is that when he argues for no-vig MoS originally he did it on the grounds of "Let's lynch him first" and then even if NL happened, it's not that clear to the Foggs whether they should vig MoS. But when the public decides to move away from Vig/Lynch MoS, he switches tracks and adopts MY position, one that he did not support in the beginning and tries to take it for his own.

Here's the thing, with the roles set up as claimed in thread, it is absolutely essential that the Cult Leader does not know what the Vigilante/Watchers are doing. The CR getting a hold on one of them is absolutely terrible(Look even if you were A Vig-Watcher and you had a choice, join the cult or stay with the town that's missed every lynch so far and looks like they have no clue what they are doing, it's not that tough of a choice)

I would've expected Yosa to mention this to the town immediately upon hearing that the town wanted to pressure the Vig's into vigging MoS. He didn't, and I have to believe that his impulse was that if he could get this day ended with the vigs going to definitely shoot MoS, he could grab one of them and have the game in the bag.

B) Elimination,

Bad Guys have to watch out for Process of elimination, because it's one of those things that will come grab you and kill you and you often won't even have a say in this.

What I mean by process of elimination is that the good guys figure out who each other are by things that happen in the game, and then figure out who you are by process of elimination.

Oftentimes a Baddie will make an active play to suspend process of elimination by introducing doubt into the elimination of a player as a suspect.

Examples:

In Open 6: Nightless, Thesp presents an excellent group of reasons for why Cephrir is not scum,

"I don't agree with VitaminR's list, and I won't support a Cephrir lynch. Nightfall's posts also cement the strong probability that Cephrir is not with the scum group, and I'm finding dead scum's posts far more helpful than any alive person's, particularly since anyone alive may have taken the potentially preferable stance of acting as a Serial Killer in this game, and would have voted any or all of his scum buddies without abandon, while his partners may not have. "

Stoofer(scum) countered with:
"Ripley's comment is just one comment amongst many; and is the sort of thing scum sometimes says to confuse the town."

Stoofer was later caught and lynched.

In California Trilogy Part I:

Why are you voting Talitha?

I still think Talitha is not scum.

My best reason for that is this post,

Pooky is the biggest question mark to me right now. I would love to trust him, but a nagging something is telling me not to. I think it started when LML fingered Pooky as scum... my first reaction was 'Durrr... of COURSE Pooky's scum. WHY didn't i suspect him earlier!' Then i realised that Lee was very likely lying and therefore there was probably no cop result on pooky. But ever since then the unexplained epiphany of that moment has gnawed at me.

I really don't think ScumTali would've come up with a fake epiphany. Color me easy to fool but her remarks seem geniune enough to make me doubt that she would be scum.

Glork(Scum) replied to that with: "Pooky, a few months ago I may have thought the same thing. I've lost some faith in seeing statements as genuinely protown. "

Glork later skated on to win the game in a 3 way after convincing Talitha/DP to vote each other.

Here's the thing, it's important for Yosarian not to let the town figure out who is protown because every person that the town figures out is protown or didn't start as the cult leader is one more person closer to finding the actual cult leader and killing him. That's why scum like to sow dissent by dismissing out of hand things that people use to clear each other.

That's why when Ecto said he firmly believed I was not scum because of my claim, Yosa said "(nods) Normally, I would agree with you, but this is Pooky we're talking about. He's the kind of guy who's very likely to fakeclaim a role like that just to WIFOM you into thinking "Well, THAT can't be a fake claim..." "

This is the same casual tone of dismissal used to plant doubt that other scum have used, you don't want the tone to be strong enough to be argumentative because you don't want to argue about idle speculation but you do want it to be casual enough to put some doubt into the "certainly protown" status of the person who is being possibly eliminated from the list of possible cult leaders/culties.

Yes it's possible that Mariyta thought of this bitten security guard claim and thought of the consequences and realized we wouldn't lynch her and then made the ballsy move in hopes of gliding through the game.(But it's not probable, it's highly highly unlikely and that's why we can use something like this to eliminate players)

Much of my previous part of the list that I have used to eliminate players are based upon role and behavioural speculation. It could easily be possible that those players came up with their claims specifically to wifom their way out of being lynched, but we dismiss such concerns because it is unlikely and because if we were to allow WIFOM to hold such a place in our decisions as to who to lynch and who not to, then there would be no point actually thinking because ANYTHING could be wifom.

What Yosarian is realizing is that if he were to calmly stand by and watch us each get probably confirmed as probable not the cult leader by this reason or that reason, he would soon have nowhere to hide, thus he has to pull out the "he could be wifoming you card" to instill the sense of doubt in order to prevent process of elim from getting him.

I think the protown reaction to a Player A going "Player B is probably protown because of XXXX" would be to jot that down in his/her notes, consider the reasons involved and digest this. Look for what other people's reactions are, go with it if XXXX makes sense but keep an eye on what Player A and Player B do while noting their relationship throughout the game.

I think the scum reaction to Player A Going "PLayer B is probably protown because of XXXX" would be to invoke Wifom to insert doubt into that statement.

None of our statements is provable or scientific fact, we can't possibly prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt, but if we were to for that reason discard our convictions, we would be playing this game as if we were blind.

Huck/Mage,

General lack of actual effort in thread combined with the fact that the way they claimed masons seemed to be more of a "will you bail me out please" than an actual mason claim.

If one of these 2 is the Cult Leader, it would make the sequence of events during BM's claim make more sense in terms of a gameplay perspective.

It would be more of BM trying to figure out in thread whether he should connect himself to his Cult Leader/Recruit in order to bail himself out of hot water in order to give HackerHuck a chance to think about whether he wanted to be connected to BattleMage.

The Siblings safeclaim would be a strong way to keep the Cult Leader alive on Day one.

Sudo is high on my list because of his claim/actions/player reactions:

Role: His role doesn't make particular sense, a bomb that triggers only on NK in a game without nightkills?

it sounds like he just wanted to attach any spectacular sounding role to a name and he figured Grandpa->Crazy Old Paranoid Gun Owner->Bomb

Actions: Doesn't really do much of anything

Reactions: Players seem to content with leaving him alone post-claim that doesn't make sense with his activity level.

Dasq/Crub fall into the middle.

Their claims make them less likely to be cult leaders than my top 4, their play hasn't been that spectacular, they're basically just there because I feel more strongly about everyone above and below them.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

re: Yos,

Yos, don't screw with my point, it is 2-fold, one you did not volunteer the strategy and two, you did not agree with my strategy or support it immediately upon my proposal of it. My point is that if you had been protown and seen me propose that strategy, you would've jumped behind it immediately to give it more weight because it's the optimal strategy from a protown perspective. Your lack of backing of my strategy until late today imo is a sign that you have decided to be less than protown in terms of strategic contribution to this game.

re YosPartII,

Your statements about why the Vig's should not announce choices pre-night essentially follow the same reasoning as my statements the day previous.

re YosIII,

Yes, you backed off on lynching MoS when you realized there wasn't enough support to get him lynched and you needed to find somebody many people were suspicious of in order to swing the votes and save your own hide. The votes on a bandwagon do not matter so much as the votes that could potentially be on a bandwagon. Enough of the suspect MoS crowd was split between lynch and vig that it would be impossible to get a lynch on him. When you realized this, you pulled back and then swung at me because you realized enough people were suspicious of me to get a bandwagon swung onto me.

re YosIV:

Don't take me out of context blatantly, that statement is a general strategic insight that I KNOW you have mentioned. However your mention of it is far after the claim and far after my initial mention. If you truly do believe that, then why did you not reinforce me when I first put it up for discussion?

re YosV:

That's my point, there are things that people use to try to figure out the alignment of others. Lastly, I don't remember seeing your point about why I am scum.

So tell me Yos, what makes you believe me to be Scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

re: HackerHuck, I'm sorry I must've missed the questions about the Surf Nazi's.

I did exclude them as a scum group from my earlier thoughts on what we were facing, but I obviously didn't want to say something like "I know because I happen to be a Surf Nazi" we had enough protown roles out in the open that it simply didn't make sense to give the Cult any more information at that point.

Re:Cicero

Anix's position is somewhat rolename based, I expect the CR to have a stronger safeclaim than a vampire's name, I also don't believe the cult leader would nonchalantly name-drop like that on day one.

And also there was that post he made about how he thought I was the cult leader because he had not yet been recruited.

It gives him -CR points in my book because I don't think CR Anix could've come up with a line like that.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

NIKOLAI GUMILEV
(1886-1921)




The Giraffe

Today, I see, your gaze is particularly forlorn,
And your hands particularly thin, embracing your knees.
Listen: far away, far away, on Lake Chad,
A refined giraffe is roaming.
His proportions are harmonious and his legs are long,
And a bewitching pattern adorns his skin;
Nothing dares compare with it, save the moon,
Fragmented and flowing on the liquid of broad lakes.
He juts out like the many-colored sails of ships,
And his gait is floating, like joyous birdflight.
I know this earth has seen many wonders
When at sunset he hides in a marble grotto.
I know the happy stories of secret lands,
About the dark maiden, about the passion of the young chief,
But you have breathed in the heavy mists for too long -
You will believe in nothing, except rain.
And how I would tell you about tropical orchards,
About elegant palms, about the scent of extraordinary grasses…
You're crying? Listen… far away, on Lake Chad,
A refined giraffe is roaming.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Bolded Responses are mine.

Yos, don't screw with my point, it is 2-fold, one you did not volunteer the strategy and two, you did not agree with my strategy or support it immediately upon my proposal of it.
...
Your lack of backing of my strategy until late today imo is a sign that you have decided to be less than protown in terms of strategic contribution to this game.

Eh? When you made the point yesterday, it was a logical stratagy and made sense, and everyone pretty much agreed with it at the time. Why is it scummy that I, specifically, didn't bother to say "I agree with Pooky"? If someone was arguing against it, like some people were today, I probably would have supported it then, like I did today.

Why wouldn't you choose to agree with it if you are protown?

It's also interesting, here, that your entire defense seems to be that you suggested a good stratagy yesterday. Well, sure you did, but that hardly makes you pro-town in and of itself.

That's not my entire defense, but that is a nice logical fallacy you are putting up

In any case, in general in this game, I think I have contributed a huge amount to figuring out what the ideal pro-town stratagy is, and so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of a "lack of stratagy" just because I didn't instantly agree with you on something in a situation where there was no specific reason why I should.

Ok point out what useful strategic insights you have given to us, from my PoV as I have reviewed your posts throughout the game, your strategy is consistently either vague, useless or late and echoing that of someone else. This is something I do not expect from protown Yos.

re YosPartII,

Your statements about why the Vig's should not announce choices pre-night essentially follow the same reasoning as my statements the day previous.

I suppose it was; I had kind of thought someone had brought up that point earlier, but I didn't remember who it was.

Ok, you "forgot", just like you "forgot" to support my proposal of it originally. I get it

That's not why I opposed vigging MOS, though. And, in fact, your stratagy argument would not have provided sufficent reason to oppose vigging MOS, if MOS was in fact a lynch-proof cult recrutier like many people were suggesting; after all, if he was one, then vigging him would really help the town out so much that it'd be worth it, right? Which was why I made the point that a lynch-proof cult recruiter was incredibly unlikely, and thus the costs of a vig (the ones you were talking about, of the frog brothers being left open to be recruited) were much higher then the possible gains, and therefore a lynch would be a much better idea.

My strategic argument was against the definite vigging of MoS, my role-spec argument was against MoS scum. Combined they basically say the same damn thing your argument says EXCEPT that they do not propose lynching MoS to "test" his claim which is incredibly scummy on multiple levels since it only succeeds if MoS is a Cult Recruiter without lynch immunity and it utterly epically fails if MoS is town OR if MoS is CR with immunity

Yes, you backed off on lynching MoS when you realized there wasn't enough support to get him lynched and you needed to find somebody many people were suspicious of in order to swing the votes and save your own hide. The votes on a bandwagon do not matter so much as the votes that could potentially be on a bandwagon. Enough of the suspect MoS crowd was split between lynch and vig that it would be impossible to get a lynch on him. When you realized this, you pulled back and then swung at me because you realized enough people were suspicious of me to get a bandwagon swung onto me.

Heh...well, it might look like that to you. To me, at the time, I thought I was taking a HUGE risk in removing my vote from the #2 bandwagon while I was the #1 bandwagon, but I was willing to take that risk because it was becoming clear to me that the "vig MOS" movement was looking incredibly scum-driven. And until I voted you, there didn't really seem to be any support for lynching you today; some people had you on their list of suspicious people to be sure, but no one was really voting for you. I honestly thought I was about to die, and I was trying to help the town as much as possible before I did by trying to figure stuff out before I died, even if it increased the personal risk to me.

Bullshit, the Vig MoS Movement and the Lynch MoS Movement split up the MoS suspecters so that there was no way you could get an MoS lynch, enough of the players who suspected MoS also thought that MoS lynch would be absolutely useless which is why you realized you couldn't get an MoS lynch and moved the vote to me KNOWING that many people in the game had already voiced a marked suspicion of me. Basically you realized your cult had no way of lynching MoS so you had to switch to another person and drive momentum that way. You realized the easiest person to get lynched was me and that's why you went this way.

It's odd, really; because I expected to be lynched and die as town there, I actually had more pro-town motivation then anyone else in the game, because I knew for a fact that if I died as town I could only win if the town won.

I like how you cast your actions in a protown light, if you expected to die right there then why did you not post a full summary of players in game so far and your full game notes? Frankly your statement is a load of crock because if you honestly expected to be lynched at that point AND you are protown, you would've posted a lot more content for us work with/analyze BECAUSE you know it would have added weight once you are revealed as protown. The fact that you didn't indicates to me that either you thought your information would help the town if you were lynched and revealed as SCUM or you didn't expect to be lynched at all.

That's my point, there are things that people use to try to figure out the alignment of others. Lastly, I don't remember seeing your point about why I am scum.

So tell me Yos, what makes you believe me to be Scum.

1. The way you jumped onto my bandwagon in a scummy manner. You basically made a post where you basically just agreed with my point about not vigging MOS, and then voted for me anyway, with absolutly no reason, joining a large bandwagon on me. You then just took several chances to try and warp what I was saying to make me sounds scummy, when I'm sure you did understand what I was actually trying to say. The whole attack really looks more like you were just trying to make me look bad and get me lynched, instead of someone who was actually trying to find out my alignment.

I have reproduced below the quote where I voted you and the post of yours I was responding to

I do not support a vig hit on MoS. This would limit the possibility of our vigs watching each other which i think up until now has probably kept the cult leader from recruiting them, I don't think that testing our town roles in this manner can be productive, I also don't like the two way logic being used here by some players.

The whole, vig him because he's probably the cult leader, but if he's innocent then the cult lost a potential powerful recruit line of logic is kinda bullshit.

I mean I can see you vigging him because you think he's been recruited, but vigging based on future possible recruitment? why not just watch him and find out who comes to recruit him?

I understand that we will need 2 lynches to kill MoS-recruit later in the game but think for a second who we are trying to kill, we are trying to kill the Cult RECRUITER. Once we stop the Recruiter, it's just Cult versus town, cult can't do shit at night. It doesn't matter if it takes us 50 lynches to lynch MoS-Cult Recruit after we kill the cult recruiter because the cult can't do anything to us at that point.

Our priority right now is to find the cult recruiter and nail his hide to the wall, not blow the crap out of potential future recruits.

It was in response to:

This goes to both of you; why is MOS not a good option, exactally?

I mean, his flavor claim is solid, but with the chance of safe claims you obveously aren't swayed by that or you guys wouldn't be voting for me. Is there something in his play that makes you believe his unlynchable claim? I mean, I could be convinced to go otherwise, but lynching MOS really looks like a win-win to me; either he's a lying cult recruiter and lynching him is awesome, or he's telling the truth but was recruited in which case lynching him is at least useful in that it makes it easier to kill him later, or he's telling the truth and is pro-town in which case lynching him is useful in the sense that at least we know he's pro-town. Sounds like a win-acceptable-acceptable situation to me.

You put MoS lynch in terms that I find is most often used by scum, win-acceptable-acceptable. frankly speaking, anything less than lynching the cult leader at this point is unacceptable to me. That's what we should be aiming for. We should not be settling for crappier choices based on the "acceptability" of if we were wrong

2. Your claim vs. the way you acted earlier in the game. When Ecto attacked Surf Nazi's origionally in the game, you accused him of having too much information and voted for him; which is pretty much the exact opposite of how I would expect you to act if you were a pro-town surf nazi.

Ok, put yourself in my shoes. Tell me how you would've reacted and explain why that reaction is BETTER for the town than the way I reacted

3. Ecto's irrational defense of you, which he now refuses to explain even after I pointed out how completly backwards it was, combined with my suspiciouns that he was recrutied last night, again points to you being the cult recruiter.

Ecto's been pretty explicit about why he has defended me, it's far from irrational and your mischaracterization of it points further to you being scum

4. You really have contributed very little all game. Earlier in the game, you tried to use as an excuse for lurking that you were waiting to see who would change their playstyle or whatever; but then you still went right back to lurking after that anyway. In general, you've contributed very little to the game.

In general that's how I play Mafia, I will attack when I think I have a strong enough cause to but if I don't have a very good read, I will give the best strategic advice I can(which I believe has been the best that's been given by any player here) and let people do their own scumhunting or attacking while staying behind. It's not easy to find a cult leader in an entire game of people. There's suspicion and then there's process of elimination. The more I speak the less room there is for anyone else to speak and possibly eliminate myself.

I have always played passively in games that are highly active because I find it is more effective to stay passive and let arguments run their course. I have always played this way in highly active games and my history reflects that. I don't see why you think it is any indicator of me being scum.

And also, as you yourself pointed out, we're dealing with a process of elimination thing here. Most people left in the game seem unlikely to be a cult recruiter or an origional cult member, for one reason or another. You do not.

I do not? Why? Let's look at what I've done(most relevant);
1) I first hypothesized(Correctly) about us being against a cult based on night actions and game setup and provided the correct play for our vigilantes/lynches to follow.
2) I told our vig/watchers to incorporate a probability into their nightactions to deter recruitment that effectively stops cult recruitment.
3) I claimed Surf Nazi.
4) I made a detailed list that showed the players I suspected to be Cult Leader and exactly why each player was on the list. Furthermore when I made the list, 2 players I put fairly high up(Battlemage/HackerHuck) was not suspected by the other players for CR AND they were also not voting me when I was at 5 votes. Basically I put 2 people high on my scumlist when they easily could vote me. It would've been just as easy for me to go with the general flow of players and put them near the bottom of my list.

If I am Cult Leader, I have no reason to piss off players who could possibly vote me by putting them high when everyone else has put them low.

If I am Cult Leader I have no reason to tell you all that we are facing a cult and showing you the best strategy for fighting against it.

If I am Cult Leader I have no reason to give the Vig/Watchers a strategy that prevents me from recruiting them by making the possible cost so high to me.

If I am Cult Leader, I wouldn't claim "Surf Nazi" I'd claim "Beach Bum" or a good safeclaim if I had one. Which I'd expect a Cult Leader to have given how this game is set up.

But of course you could say THERE IS A REASON, YOU COULD BE DOING SOMETHING UNEXPECTED JUST TO GET US TO THINK YOU ARE NOT THE CULT LEADER.

Yes you can apply WIFOM to everything, Yes you can say every good thing I have done has been for the sole purpose of making you guys think I am not scum.

But it's just so utterly stupid to apply wifom to everything. You can apply it to Mari's claim. You can apply it to Arafax's claim. You can apply it to every good thing that every player has ever done. But it's just stupid because we won't get anywhere, we really shouldn't.

You say that it's not unlikely for me to be a cult recruiter or original member, I say it's damn unlikely for me to be a cult recruiter or original member because of points 1, 2, 3 and 4 that I have outlined above.

But yes you could dismiss it all due to "wifom" and then say "Most people left in the game seem unlikely to be a cult recruiter or an origional cult member, for one reason or another. You do not."

But you'd be wrong and you'd be lying about what I am and what I've done in this game

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You missed the part where I asked you how you expect a protown player with the Surf Nazi role to have acted under those circumstances on Day 2 and also how that would be a better move than what I did on day 2.

It's a fairly large part of your case against me so I'd like for you to address it before I rebuke your argument.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Bolded Responses are Mine,

Why wouldn't you choose to agree with it if you are protown?

Because there was no reason to do so at that time, no one was really trying to direct them yesterday or anything, and the less the Frog brother's night actions were discussed in thread at that point, the better.

Sure there is a reason, the more support it gets, the more likely it will seem to the CR that the threat of the mutual watching would make his targetting of them risky. That's a good thing, we want to dissuade CR from taking our vigs. How about the fact that players respect your strategic insights? Or the fact that the more protown players we have backing a protown idea the better it is?

That's not my entire defense, but that is a nice logical fallacy you are putting up

Well, you've certainly failed to defend yourself otherwise.

I'm sorry but up until then I had not really been sure why people had suspected me and there hadn't been a real case put forth against me so far as I could see. IT makes it rather hard to defend yourself when you haven't much of a clue why people suspect you

Ok, you "forgot", just like you "forgot" to support my proposal of it originally. I get it

Um, i didn't bother to go back a month and see who had made a similar point earlier, no. And no, I actually didn't remember it was you until you brought it up. Why is that so strange?

And by the way, I never said I "forgot" to support your proposal origioanlly. Typical Pooky tactics here, trying to put words in my mouth like that.

That's the point I am making, you are not "forgetting" to do something, you are making an active choice not to do it. You did not just forget who posted the idea originally, you did not bother to look and see who posted it or you did remember and just chose not to mention it, either way a choice is being made

My strategic argument was against the definite vigging of MoS, my role-spec argument was against MoS scum. Combined they basically say the same damn thing your argument says EXCEPT that they do not propose lynching MoS to "test" his claim which is incredibly scummy on multiple levels since it only succeeds if MoS is a Cult Recruiter without lynch immunity and it utterly epically fails if MoS is town OR if MoS is CR with immunity

No. If MOS is a cult recruiter without lynch immunity, then lynching him works. If MOS is town with lynch immuntiy, then while lynching him is not great, it's much better then vigging him, because of the very argument you just made here about not directing the vigs. The whole "vig MOS" stratagy some people were pushing only makes sense if you think MOS is a cult recruiter with lynch immunity, and that's incredibly unlikely. And that's all I was saying.

And that's the same thing I said.... so I don't see why you can say that your argument is not the same thing as mine recycled and added in some trivial obvious crap

Bullshit, the Vig MoS Movement and the Lynch MoS Movement split up the MoS suspecters so that there was no way you could get an MoS lynch, enough of the players who suspected MoS also thought that MoS lynch would be absolutely useless which is why you realized you couldn't get an MoS lynch and moved the vote to me KNOWING that many people in the game had already voiced a marked suspicion of me.

Please. Almost no one had voted for you in ages. Meanwhile, I took a huge risk in changing my mind on MOS; lots of people think it's scummy whenver someone changes their mind, and a large part of the town still wanted MOS dead; in fact, most of the people who weren't voting for me wanted MOS dead, and by changing my mind on MOS I was half expecting they would end up voting for me as well.

You changed your mind because you didn't have a choice, they weren't voting for MoS because they wanted MoS vigged, not lynched, they didn't want to waste a lynch on MoS and thus they would not have supported an MoS lynch anyway, you realized that you were going to die from inertia alone if you didn't find a better target and that's when you came after me. IT doesn't matter if nobody had voted me in "ages"(which is not true since I was the first bandwagon of the day). Enough people had expressed a high suspicion of me that you could get a significant bandwagon on me.

I think it should be fairly obveous the size of the risk that I was taking there; you trying to act like I was only suspecting you because I thought that you were an easier lynch them MOS is pretty insane. Do you really think people are going to buy that theory?

You honestly think you had any chance of getting MoS stringed up at that point in the day? There isn't a risk being taken because your vote where it was, was completely useless. You had to find a candidate other than MoS because an MoS lynch simply was not going to happen today. What risk is there in moving your vote when if you don't move it, you almost certainly get lynched because there's no way to get MoS lynched when those who suspect him are split into 2 camps that would not agree? You've been pushing for an MoS lynch for a while, when you realized you couldn't get an MoS lynch set up, you realized you had to find another candidate and that's when you chose to slap your vote on me. Why wouldn't they believe this theory? It makes sense, do you really think you could've gotten MoS lynched?

I like how you cast your actions in a protown light, if you expected to die right there then why did you not post a full summary of players in game so far and your full game notes? Frankly your statement is a load of crock because if you honestly expected to be lynched at that point AND you are protown, you would've posted a lot more content for us work with/analyze BECAUSE you know it would have added weight once you are revealed as protown.

I'm not "casting my actions" as anything, I'm just telling the truth, as you probably already know. I think that any pro-town person making a full list of who they think is most suspicious and least suspicious is probably harmfull to the town at this point, since it just tells the scum who to recruit. Besides, there might be more then one cult recruiter, but there probably aren't many; if I could get the town headed in the right direction to lynch one of them after I died, that would be pretty much the most useful thing I could do. Anything else is secondary at that point. And it's still true, as well; even if I get lynched today, I'm pretty sure that when I come up town people are going to take a good, hard look at you. That's why you're trying so hard to discredit me, after more then a week of basically no content from you, isn't it?

What is the point of your first line? why do you state something like "i'm just telling the truth" do you expect anyone to say "I'm not telling the truth?"

What is the point of "he's casting his actions in this light" is "I'm not casting my actions, I'm just telling the truth". Honestly yos, who is going to take you on your word?

Secondly "I think that any pro-town person making a full list of who they think is most suspicious and least suspicious is probably harmfull to the town at this point, since it just tells the scum who to recruit." is complete and utter bullshit. How can you possibly believe that when you were the FIRST PERSON to post after Dasq's post about STV and you have said NOTHING about STV? Basically how can you possibly believe "I think that any pro-town person making a full list of who they think is most suspicious and least suspicious is probably harmfull to the town at this point, since it just tells the scum who to recruit." if you let Dasq run his STV idea to town and you just silently sit by while most of the town starts giving complete lists in STV format? This is a blatant contradiction, frankly you can't believe that crap you just made up about how lists are bad and still be complacent with letting the town put up STV's.

You put MoS lynch in terms that I find is most often used by scum, win-acceptable-acceptable. frankly speaking, anything less than lynching the cult leader at this point is unacceptable to me. That's what we should be aiming for. We should not be settling for crappier choices based on the "acceptability" of if we were wrong

Well, obveously. Again, the thing that you seem to miss is that I had been suspicious of MOS for quite a while before his claim; I was never pushing for him to be lynched BECAUSE of his claim, it's just that at the time of that post I was still suspicious of him DISPITE his claim. You seem to be missing the point here that I was arguing against people who were trying to vig MOS, and I was trying to make the point that in most scenerios a lynch of him would be better, or at least less bad.

Whether a player is suspicious of another player before he/she begins using craplogic to justify the lynch of a player is irrelevant. I don't care if you were suspicious of MoS to begin with, the fact remains that you tried to use craplogic to push an MoS lynch through based on acceptability standards.

Ecto's been pretty explicit about why he has defended me, it's far from irrational and your mischaracterization of it points further to you being scum

Of course it's irrational. He's pretending that your vote for him back when he first brought up Surf Nazis is supposed to be some kind of proof that you are in fact a Surf Nazi. That was his argument. But looking back at your post, that's not at all the impression I get; you never at any point disagreed with him, you just attacked him for "speculating" and for apparently having "too much information". So yes, his defense on you based on that is extremly irrational.

You can't say his defense of me is irrational if you don't state why you believe my reaction to be faked. He thought my reaction showed I was surf nazi, he explains why he thought this, why do you think otherwise? what do you think a surf nazi would've done in my shoes? why?

In general that's how I play Mafia, I will attack when I think I have a strong enough cause to but if I don't have a very good read, I will give the best strategic advice I can(which I believe has been the best that's been given by any player here) and let people do their own scumhunting or attacking while staying behind. It's not easy to find a cult leader in an entire game of people. There's suspicion and then there's process of elimination. The more I speak the less room there is for anyone else to speak and possibly eliminate myself.

I have always played passively in games that are highly active because I find it is more effective to stay passive and let arguments run their course. I have always played this way in highly active games and my history reflects that. I don't see why you think it is any indicator of me being scum.

Well, it is true you are often quiet in active games. However, in a cult game, I would definatly expect a cult leader to be quiet and in the background. A mafia member in a normal game might take the risk and lead a bad bandwagon from time to time; a cult recruiter generally should not, he'd much rather sit back and let the expendable recruits do his dirty work for him. And that's what your play looks like this game for the most part.

Let's look at these statements:
A)Pooky plays passively/quietly in very active games
B)You expect a cult leader to play quietly.
C)This is a very active game

Conclusion:
D)Pooky plays quietly(From A/C)
E)The Cult Leader probably plays quietly(B)
F) Pooky's Play in this game looks like the Cult Leader's Probable Play
G) Pooky is Probably the Cult Leader.

Oooh I know what we can do

A) Joseph likes to smoke in public places
B) The Serial Killer probably likes to smoke in public places.
C) this is a public place.

D) Joseph is smoking
E) The Serial Killer probably likes to Smoke
F) Joseph's smoking looks like a Serial Killer's Smoking
G) Joseph is probably the serial killer.
Terrible logic, you know I like to play passively in active games, using what is "probable cult leader" play to attack me is pretty bad, especially when you know I know what a cult leader likes to do because I've already said it this game.

[quote[

I do not? Why? Let's look at what I've done(most relevant);
1) I first hypothesized(Correctly) about us being against a cult based on night actions and game setup and provided the correct play for our vigilantes/lynches to follow.

Ok. How does that "eliminate" you as cult? I mean, the first person to suggest the existance of a SK before there is any proof of a SK is very often the SK himself, right? Isn't the fact that you suspected a cult before we had any real reason to do so actually a strike against you?

This is nothing like that, I didn't randomly wake up and say "HEY GUYS I THINK WE HAVE A CULT" I outlined my thinking behind it, I outlined the reasoning for it. I showed how I came to my conclusions. And my reasoning was pretty damn good. The case of the person suggesting the SK existence is a case of a person having a little too much information

without due reason

. Basically if player A knows something he shouldn't know, that is suspicious. My case is completely different, I came up with the cult theory based on REASONING, not based on any hidden role information. More craplogic from Yosarian

2) I told our vig/watchers to incorporate a probability into their nightactions to deter recruitment that effectively stops cult recruitment.

Suggesting one single half-decent pro-town stratagy does not "prove" you're pro-town, Pooky. Not at all, intellegent scum usually do suggest reasonable pro-town stratagies to make themselves sound better. You know that.

I never suggested it "proves" I am protown. Those are your words. Actions need to be viewed in concert, there's no way any player is going to "prove" they are protown short of killing themselves. The most our actions can do is strongly suggest that we are protown or anti-town, and my actions certainly suggest I am not anti-town.

3) I claimed Surf Nazi.

And that's supposed to be a point in your favor, why?

You're the one with the theory about how Cult Leader probably has a safe-claim that's strongish. You tell me

4) I made a detailed list that showed the players I suspected to be Cult Leader and exactly why each player was on the list. Furthermore when I made the list, 2 players I put fairly high up(Battlemage/HackerHuck) was not suspected by the other players for CR AND they were also not voting me when I was at 5 votes. Basically I put 2 people high on my scumlist when they easily could vote me. It would've been just as easy for me to go with the general flow of players and put them near the bottom of my list.

Yes, you did make a detailed list. Yesterday. After you were under severe attack. You didn't bother to do so before; so long as it looked like the town would lynch me, you were perfectly happy to just drift along with that. And the rest of your argument is compeltly WIFOM; especally since you made that list yesterday and are using that in your defense today. And hey, the fact that you put BM and HH that high up on your list might just mean you've recruited them and want to distance yourself from them, or something. Who knows. It's hardly evidence in your defense.

Yes, I didn't put out a full list so long as the person who was AT THE TOP OF MY LIST looked to be the one who was going to get lynched. That makes complete and total sense. I was fine with limiting what I said based upon that. This MAKES SENSE. My point exactly about WIFOM, Cult Leaders about to be strung up do not try to make enemies right before judgement day because those enenmies could easily mean the difference between being lynched and being saved. "Could be distancing or something", right either Pooky could be protown and putting out a comprehensive list because he expects a high possibility of being lynched and wants the town to know exactly where he stands on each player in the game and who is most likely to be the cult recruiter OR Pooky could be antitown and "could be distancing or something"

If I am Cult Leader, I wouldn't claim "Surf Nazi" I'd claim "Beach Bum" or a good safeclaim if I had one. Which I'd expect a Cult Leader to have given how this game is set up.

If you'd claimed beach bum, you might have already been lynched. And I think you're a good enough player to know that in your position "surf nazi" was just a much more convincing claim then "beach bum" would have been. It almost worked, too. Very clever move for you to make as scum in that situation, I would think.

You could say that about any claim I could make, yes I could be a malicious all knowing player, but if I were to know enough about your reaction to surf nazi, then why would i not get by on actual contribution? If I am so clever, why have I been so passive? If I am so attuned to what convinces you guys, why have I been so passive?

Really, this effort of yours to try and "prove" that you could not be the cult recruiter really just outlines how little you've really done for the town this game. You speculated early about the existance of a cult; you suggested that the watchers might want to think about watching each other; and you then went on to make a someone unusual flavor claim to go with your claimed vanillia role. And that's it.[/quote]

This "prove" word is YOURS. not mine. I have not said in my post that I am trying to prove I am protown. I have never claimed that any of the stuff I have said "proves" my protown status. Let me give you a recap since you've so easily forgotten what this topic originated on.

You started with the comment

"And also, as you yourself pointed out, we're dealing with a process of elimination thing here. Most people left in the game seem unlikely to be a cult recruiter or an origional cult member, for one reason or another. You do not. "

I then countered with four good reasons for why I am "unlikely to be the cult leader"

You then basically characterized my reasons as attempts to "prove" my innocence.

This is complete crap. You basically put this "prove" word in my mouth to try to make me look like I'm trying to pull a fast one when I've been responding to YOUR comment in the first place.

Nobody can prove anything in a mafia game, the best we can get are highly likely/unlikely

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Hi, I am sorry that my back-forths with Yosa have reached ridiculous size. If you feel it is inconvenient for you to read all of it, please tell me and I will try to summarize it into shorter reader's digest versions for you.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I hate this game

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No
I was not bitten last night.

Look at what happened yesterday.

The town came up with 2 suspects, me and Yosa, everyone was on one or the other wagon.

and Yosa went to the grave shouting that I was scum.

The Cult Leader would have to be a complete dumbass to recruit me considering I'm easily the most likely candidate for lynch today.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

@Pooky: you could've been recruited last night so you could be set up for a bus today.

That makes no sense.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I want every player in this game to either give me a scenario where Ecto is the Cult Recruiter but not a roleblocker.

Or say that the only way he can be the Cult Recruiter is if he were a Roleblocker as well.

Starting right now.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My current suspicion list is unchanged from yesterday.

I have provided reasons for each one.

Feel free to rebuke my points or propose a more likely candidate.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Niether their role nor alignment is confirmed to each other. Fake Masonry is a good way to stay out of the lynching noose.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yea Crub

That's genius.

Why don't you just put up a big sign that says "If you guys don't show up to play, we won't lynch you?"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i think its obv by now that bm has not read the game

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I seriously hate this game now

i dont know if i am losing to a bunch of people who don't give a shit or if it's an elaborate plan conocted to make them look like they don't give a shit.

but with their play history it really could go either way.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

name names?

r u joking?

i think it's pretty obvious which crowd i'm talking about.

they're the one's who seem completely oblivious as to this game's existence.

unvote

vote Sudo_nym

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

When did reason die?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

vote BM

die die scum suck die suck die suck die

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The ecto wagon is made of lose.

unvote

vote Setael

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yes

If you stood in front of the mirror and said it 5 times. I'd magically appear with a glass of cold milk and some cookies and tuck you into bed.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Best of luck on your surgery Ecto.

You have our best wishes.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

vote: Anix

This is the eleventh hour.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

nice two step away from Anix there Dasq.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

writing's on the way cicero. nobody turned.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that might be a bit much.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Still.

Profanity is unnecesary.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You guys were pretty close on day 3 when I almost got lynched.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Cuz Yosa makes children wet their beds at night.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If anything I thought the setup was slanted towards the town, it was only the high level of inactivity from the some members of the town that did create the slanted endgame situation that we found ourselves in.

If Yosa had gotten me lynched on Day 3, the game could've swung very quickly to the other side.

Also if any player had asked the moderator whether lynching would count as killing, that would also eliminate a ton of the unwilling recruitments and forced the vamps to go into nightkilling mode.

When a group of players vote for somebody to be lynched, they are the ones killing him, not some giant invisible votecounting robot-judge-executioner, those X players who voted Y to be lynched are basically putting up a noose, putting his head in it, and then kicking the chair out from under him collectively.

No player on that bandwagon has clean hands in the matter, they are all considered to have killed that person.,

I absolutely dreaded the town figuring this out or thinking to ask whether killing was limited to only nightkills because it would absolutely force our hand, half vamps wouldnt vote on bandwagons at all, and we'd fall back into nightkills, and then if MoS had gotten found out or killed, we would've been in huge trouble because of the half-vamps that dont count towards cult numbers or even work with the cult.

Not to mention that those Half-Vamps have pseudovig like ability that happens to block cult actions should they choose to use it.

Swingy yes?

But any set up is going to fail in a bad way if that much of the player pool is unwilling to participate.

It's just silly to blame Flay for failing to forsee this type of thing. Sure he can't expect everyone to hunt with the vigor of a cicero, but he certainly shouldn't expect so many Anixes.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

if you had figured it out, you could've set up a pseudovoting method to avoid the possibility of halfrecruits being on lynching wagons.(I mean having every protown player miss that possibility isn't exactly incredibly likely. This is one of those points that it's not so much important what the accepted view is, it's just what you would ask JUST in case. Better to err on the side of caution, besides what do you lose by asking?)

and then the game really would've swung much harder against the cult.

As it was it was I'd say moderately hard for the cult with a more average level of activity.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I thought every half-vamp was a sort of one shot vig.(one of those really neat things about this game)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

not if you tell the town b4 you vig, then the lynch you. since you are townside prior to vigging and scumside afterwards, it kinda works out almost.

lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

MoS is an open book 4 me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think it's the Flatmate thing that gives it away.

IF you changed that to drunk roomie, you'd be all good.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think a organized group of vampires is more useful for the coming war against Eurasia than a rag tag band of disorganized townies that can't bother to show up to play.

so I'm pretty sure the we should all count this as a win.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I can totally see why this is the longest mafia game thread in MS history.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you kids these days.