Board Games Mafia -- Game Over!

[HackerHuck]

Greetings,

Unvote: CES

I just finished my first read and I'll probably have to go through it all again. There was so much crap that I started skimming entire pages. That said, I've got a few observations.

What was going on the WldHrt waqon?

BattleMage - He started off looking extremely scummy and then got wise once Thesp stirred up the pot a bit. He keeps popping up with posts just to remind us that he's around. Seems a bit like lurking in plain sight. Didn't like the fishing when his wagon was still quite small, but that's likely a newbie thing.

Livingod - I can't seem to follow his logic. Main defence seems to be "they'll be proven scum when I turn up town". Raging Rabbit brought up some valid points about his scummy behaviour (much better than Thesp's), which brings me to my next observation...

Rabbit - Overall I've seen some pretty good logic from rabbit, but his actions don't seem to follow that same logic. Makes good case against Livingod and even states that he thinks livingod seems to be scum. He then votes for Twito - only because he doesn't explain his votes. Rabbit even agrees that Twito's targets display scum tells. This looks like scum setting up for a possible one-two mislynch if Livingod or DoS turn up town.

Cheesfan - Relatively quiet and then that vote against Olio??

Interesting group of players. Having Thesp, Twito, and Fritzler with a group of Newbies will be quite entertaining.

Those were just the things that stuck out from the first read through. I've got to go throught this again to get a better read on everyone.

Vote: Raging Rabbit

If you think someone's scummy, don't vote against someone else just because you don't like their playstyle.

[HackerHuck]

I was going to start my reread, but it seems Rabbit wanted some answers first.

A good pro-town move would be to use quote tags to indicate who you're quoting. It's very hard to follow all of these quotes that I'm seeing. Using 'I' also makes it a bit confusing when your posts get quoted.

Rabbit - Overall I've seen some pretty good logic from rabbit, but his actions don't seem to follow that same logic. Makes good case against Livingod and even states that he thinks livingod seems to be scum. He then votes for Twito - only because he doesn't explain his votes. Rabbit even agrees that Twito's targets display scum tells. This looks like scum setting up for a possible one-two mislynch if Livingod or DoS turn up town.

Vote: Raging Rabbit
If you think someone's scummy, don't vote against someone else just because you don't like their playstyle.

He actually turned out a lot worse than I originally thought, though I'm basing my suspicions mostly on recent post that weren't there at the time of Thesp's initial one. If it wasn't for his wagon and two other guys practically begging for it, I'd say he's a pretty good lynch. The only reason I've been defending him for all this while and plan to continue doing so is I find his wagon just amazingly scummy, and no one on it bothered to point out any of this. I'm not saying no one saw this, I'm saying I don't see what good they get out of keeping it quiet. The nature of his wagon makes him look a lot more innocent to me, which is why I'm fimly against his lynch at the moment.

I think his wagon's scum driven, simple as that.

Scum driven or there just happens to be scum on the wagon? If you're just talking about Twito, it's hard to say that he was driving that wagon.

I'm not voting Twito because I he didn't explain his vote, nor because I don't like his playstyle.

Voting someone for joining a wagon you're already on for reasons which I consider crap is huge, IMO. You keep contradicting yourself and manipulating facts in your attempts to defend yourself, which just makes me more and more sure you're scum.

Please reread my argument with Twito. What's your take on it now? Is voting without stating your reasons good for the town, in your opinion? If it is, why?

Your basis for voting Twito is still very weak. What I saw in your vote post was:

• Flip-flopping on statements about Thesp
  Blindly following Thesp - i.e. not explaining reasons for the vote
  Voting someone who was on the same wagon

You have mostly pushed the third reason lately, but you have also made a big point that voting without posting reasons is not pro-town. In fact your question regarding voting without reasons seems to prove my point that it's a big concern of yours.

Voting without posting reasons can be good for the town. I prefer to get reasons and will ask for them myself, but I do not find it scummy to not give reasons. There are definitely times when one would want to place a vote and not put all one's cards on the table.

There are a number of players here that like to make posts looking for reactions. That's one of the reasons why I said that the mix here will make for a very entertaining game.

still see nothing wrong with voting someone who joins wagon you are already on. IC's around here is there something wrong with this?

I would also like IC's to answer this. The percise question is - is there nothing wrong with voting somone who joins a wagon you are already on

for the one and only reason of him being 6th on the wagon

?

If scum never voted for other scum, they'd be a lot easier to catch. The answer to your precise question, is obviously no. I find it more than a little misleading though, that you're boiling Twito's case down to that one sentence. I think the whole point behind the DoS vote was that DoS jumped on to a wagon that was gaining momentum without having much substance. The fact that he added no substance is a little scummy.

[HackerHuck]

I think the whole point behind the DoS vote was that DoS jumped on to a wagon that was gaining momentum without having much substance. The fact that he added no substance is a little scummy.

Huck read the thread again. I explain my vote very clearly on page 14 see post 343. Please do not make statements that you have no basis for.

That you did.

Please reread that quote of mine and then read why Twito states he made that vote.

[HackerHuck]

Well, I got through my reread and it doesn't clear up all that much. I will say that most of the scum are loving the way this game is playing out. I doubt very much that all of BM, Livingod, Rabbit and Twito are innocent, but they're making it really easy for the rest of the scum to sit back and blend in.

Looking back through my notes, I don't have any earth-shattering new insight.

Glork - As 221B Baker Street, you should have led off with: "The game is afoot"
Also congratulations to WldHrt on the new babies, unless Nightfall got it wrong.

Can someone please explain the WldHrt wagon? It seems like a few people were playing an entirely different game at first. It actually got pretty large, but then it got swept under the rug pretty well.

I see a lot of similarities in the BM and Livingod wagons. Both wagons had a fair amount of votes without much explanation. Both players have not done a good job defending themselves. I really don't like the defense of: "Go ahead and lynch me, since that will prove that you are scum"

I'm really surprised at how quickly the wagon on BM melted away. That open letter to the town didn't pose much defence, but it seemed to work. People seemed to want to believe that he's just a townie playing poorly. It is rather hard to believe he's scum, but maybe it's just a brilliant strategy. That whole mod slipup theory was pretty hilarious though.

Livingod's scumminess isn't as absurd as BMs, which might explain why he's still on the block. He hasn't really done anything to defend himself and seems to be relying on raging rabbit to defend him. I'm also not a fan of the "I'm sick/stoned/drunk/whatever, so that's why I'm acting irrationally" excuse. I think he's more likely scum than BM, but Rabbit's defence is what has me thinking he's not.

Rabbit's concerns about the Livingod wagon are very interesting. I can see how the Thesp post threw him off. The first time I saw one of those with my name on it, I was also taken aback. I was following his logic as he thought the wagon on Livingod was misguided. Keep in mind that there's always some danger of defending someone who might actually be guilty. Then he did a couple of things that piqued my interest. First was when he singled out Twito. I found this case to be pretty weak as I'll explain later. The most important thing was when he outlined the case against Livingod. That was the most convincing argument I've seen on Livingod and it had me pretty convinced. I just don't see how that post was in any way relevant to his case that the wagon was scummy, and to say all that without a vote seems really odd to me. The fact that there hasn't been a sufficiently presented case in any of the other two wagons so far makes this defence even stranger. I think he knows that Livingod is innocent and is looking for a fall guy on the wagon.

Confirm Vote: Raging Rabbit

Thesp can be explained simply by CES' post. That's what he does and I'm pretty sure that he's at least half wrong, but he hasn't contributed enough for me to get a read on him yet.

Twito is also being well, Twito. I have been fooled by him as scum, so I won't put much into my analysis of him. With Twito I usually have to wade through his posts to find out what he's trying to say and in this case, I'm mostly agreeing with him so far - whatever that means.

Cheesefan has struck me as a bit odd by joining the BM wagon late and jumping off early. Then came the bizarre vote on Olio. I don't know what to make of it, but they're not really pro-town behaviours.

Everyone else has been less than note-worthy - sorry Fritz...

I'm not a metagamer and I can't be bothered to read peoples' other games. These observations likely mean nothing important, but they were somehow worth enough for me to note.
Thesp, Twito, and Fritzler are all playing as usual. I can't get a read on them yet.
ShadowLurker seems more inactive than I'm used to.
Zindaras is also a little less active than I'm used to.
Looking at the dates, this game's only been going for three weeks now. Coming in as a replacement, I don't really know whether it's inactivity on their part or hyperactivity on the part of others.

[HackerHuck]

Your basis for voting Twito is still very weak. What I saw in your vote post was:

Flip-flopping on statements about Thesp
Blindly following Thesp - i.e. not explaining reasons for the vote
Voting someone who was on the same wagon

You have mostly pushed the third reason lately, but you have also made a big point that voting without posting reasons is not pro-town. In fact your question regarding voting without reasons seems to prove my point that it's a big concern of yours.

I made a big point of the second reason because of my suspicion of the entire wagon, not just Twito. That's also why it's just a minor factor in my Twito argument - everyone on that wagon are guilty of it for some extent, even Thesp.

I feel my two other points are very strong, and there's also a 4th one - his very scummy defence. Why do you consider my case weak?

Point one is mostly irrelevant. I can't really figure out what he's trying to say about Thesp myself, but that didn't seem to be the crux of his argument.
Point two might be worthwhile, but if you look back through the thread, you'll find that Twito was not the only one who did this (see below where you ask why he singled out DoS) and the other two wagons had just as much unstated reasoning associated with the votes.
Point three is not really a scum tell. See my quote below where you said "True, what's your point?"
Point four isn't really a point. That's no better than what DoS said when he first made his vote on Livingod.

Voting without posting reasons can be good for the town. I prefer to get reasons and will ask for them myself, but I do not find it scummy to not give reasons. There are definitely times when one would want to place a vote and not put all one's cards on the table.

I can see it as a good stratety in some situations later in the game, but this is day 1. Why is it good to not put your cards or the table this early in the game? It's not like anyone has any info or a significant lot to go on...

Don't you find a bandwagon that makes it to 7 votes without anyone explaining it scummy?

There are a number of players here that like to make posts looking for reactions. That's one of the reasons why I said that the mix here will make for a very entertaining game.

Not explaining your votes makes for "please explain" reactions. Not a very brilliant trap.

Day one is about looking at reactions, otherwise we wouldn't need random voting to get things going. I don't always agree with provoking reactions, but the results of those provocations can be educational.

If scum never voted for other scum, they'd be a lot easier to catch.

True, what's your point?

I think my point was in reference to your third point against Twito - voting someone who was on the same wagon you are.

The answer to your precise question, is obviously no. I find it more than a little misleading though, that you're boiling Twito's case down to that one sentence. I think the whole point behind the DoS vote was that DoS jumped on to a wagon that was gaining momentum without having much substance. The fact that he added no substance is a little scummy.

But lots of other people, including Twito, did the exact same thing. Why single DoS out? Why fabricate an extra reason to vote him (the Thesp thing)?

Yes the wagon was gaining momentum, but it was only a 6th vote. If it was 8th or 9th I'd see his point, as it is it makes no sense IMO.

You're saying that if scum don't have reasons to join a heating up wagon that they'll wait until the 8th or 9th vote? I would say that it's a proper wagon once it gets to half the number needed to lynch.

You yourself made a pretty good case against Livingod and now it seems you're really looking for a reason not to vote for him.

[HackerHuck]

Good lord....seriously I didnt request another wall of text. I was pointing out the problem with the previous ones. Here, read it again:

You're killing me with it. Probably because Im sitting here at 4am with the flu. I did try to go back and find the 6 clear and concise reasons, but what I found after going back only about 4 pages looking for them, is they referred to other quotes another 4 pages back, which referred to quotes another 4 pages back, but never presented the whole case in one package. However, I have tried to follow your reasoning this entire time and honestly, all I see at the heart of it is an argument over semantics, coupled with Twito being deliberately difficult.
I know you spent alot of time on it, and it stinks when people dont seem to see what appears perfectly clear to you. If I missed something, thats just what happens when you are trying to read what eventually comes to resemble spam more than a reasoned discussion.

I think you both have spent plenty of time explaining yourselves, and its still sitting there to be reviewed later as events unfold.

If you want a direct request from me, here it is. How about Twito and RR restrain themselves from making another post until the other 16 players in this game have posted at least once. That would make me happy.

@Twito Go scum yourself

QFT

I'm having a difficult time wading through the muck to see if either one has said anything new.

Let me give you a bit of advice Rabbit. Imagine we're all sitting in a room having a conversation. You keep talking about how scummy Twito is, while he's throwing little darts at you here and there. He's obviously irritating you, so you keep up on the offensive. The more you dominate the conversation, the more people will start to tune you out. I've gotten to the point where I'm skimming your posts and I'm forced to go back and reread everything. You have to give people a chance to take in what you're saying.


Normally I would say that your dominance of the thread would make you a little less likely to be scum, but this appears to be normal behaviour for you. I'm still happy with my vote for now. Even with your wall of text, I cannot figure out why your case on Twito is stronger than your case against Livingod.

Livingod - You're the vote leader right now and you have been taking advantage of the distractions to lay low. I'd like to hear what you have to say now.

[HackerHuck]

Busy day at work. Busy day here it appears.

RR - If you have an issue with the mod, PM him and don't take it up in thread. We've got enough to slog through as it is.

I don't know what to make of your claim. I didn't see more than a couple of people say that you were going to be next in line if Livingod comes up scum. For someone who prides himself in his logic, I'm really confused by your thought process.

Why as cop wouldn't you just push the Livingod wagon over the top and then investigate Twito at night? That would keep you safer from a NK tonight and your theory would be proven or disproven by the following day. Now you've basically shortened your life, set yourself up for a roleblocker and we're at lynch-1 on Livingod when you were trying so hard to get Twito lynched.

I'm now curious about your initial theory on Twito, since it now seems to have gone by the wayside. You felt that the Livingod wagon felt scummy or scumdriven. Let's take a look at the Livingod wagon, we see that BM started it while he was still the leading wagon. Ectomancer piled on and then Thesp started it up right when he replaced in. Twito hops on - quite scummily you thought - and then CES, DoS, and Twito hops off onto DoS. That's when Rabbit slowly works up to his case against Twito.

Your scum triumvirate is BM, Twito, and now Livingod. BM seemed more interested in tying you to Livingod than pushing his case. That's a bit of a nod toward your theory. Livingod follows you to put a vote on Twito. Now we've got all three of your scum voting each other. That's some coordinated distancing. You say that Thesp seems town to you and you felt Twito was also scummy for voting DoS. Unless you think that the DoS vote was also distancing, that leaves Ectomancer and CES. I don't think that one or two votes makes a wagon, so CES is really the only person that could be considered pushing the wagon. Since you liked to keep your accusations quite vague, it seems that your scummy wagon rationale was simply some kind of a cover.

I honestly don't know what to make of all this. I'm quite certain you're wrong about at least one of your suspected scum, but I cannot figure out what you're really trying to accomplish. If you turn up to be scum, I'd be willing to wager that your scumbuddies will be nowhere near this Livingod wagon.

[HackerHuck]

Welcome back Zindaras, your absence day one was noted. Interesting back and forth with CES, but your dissertation called him out for doing exactly what you did. I'm also surprised by CES' reaction, since I've never seen him quuite so defensive before.

508 and 510 look bad.

I disagree. Post 510 is one of the most pro-town posts in the whole Twito/RR debate.


The more I think about it, Rabbit's claim seems reasonable - I think it's very unlikely he even knows what Cranium is and it makes sense as an investigative role. However, if there's a mafia roleblocker out there (as he claims) he's about as good to us as any other townie. I'm willing to give him some more time.

I'm not ready to jump on the Kison wagon yet. My concerns with his behaviour are that he claims Rabbit was strongly defending Livingod. From everything I read, Rabbit felt quite strongly all along that Livingod was scum, but he felt the wagon on Livingod was scummy. The way he pressured Rabbit into voting Livingod was also not pro-town. After all that badgering, Rabbit had no choice but to vote, so it really proved nothing. I also don't like his case on Twito. He's using the either or with Rabbit and Twito and leans toward Twito since he's the one that pushed the hardest for the Livingod lynch. Looking at yesterday's posts, the only mention of Twito was

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'd like Kison to give us three concise reasons why Twito might be scum.

Rabbit, why do you seem so unconcerned with the way Kison coerced you into voting for Livingod?

Hmmm. After rereading this post, I'll will keep this wagon moving.

Vote: Kison

Twito - you better not vote me for this...

[HackerHuck]

Twito - you better not vote me for this...

This is an odd thing to say.

Bad Joke. I put the nefarious sixth vote on Kison.

The claim is dubious. But I have to ask myself why someone who I feel is scummy would vote for him. One reason would be distancing or bussing if RR is scum, the other would be that he really could be a cop and scum would love to see him lynched to free up a roleblocker for someone else. From the situation at hand, Im leaning towards the latter because I cant see the advantage for scum to lynch RR right now if he were scum. On the other hand, if RR is town, you dont know who the Doc might be, so you cant even consider a NK on RR until you find him. Therefore, scums only play will have to be to lynch RR until the Doc is found. Lynching RR is not good for the town until we get some more facts at hand. Take all those statements together, and you can see why I felt your statement added credibility to RR's claim.
Also, what was the opportunity to produce evidence? His claim would have made him the obvious target for a roleblock. He had no investigation prior to that. His problem now is he is a lame duck cop as long as a roleblocker is out there, which is why he really should not have claimed in the first place.

This is yet another reason to add to a

FOS: Battle Mage

QFT

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'm failing to see how this is holds any significance. My agreement to reconsider the Twito case in light of new events the next day is hardly a scum-tell.

I'm not going to go in depth yet again about my reasons for voting for Twito, as I feel I've made more points for why I did it than everyone else has about denouncing my claims as scummy. If you all want to actually read what I've said and bring up some questions based on it, then I'd gladly clarify things. However, again, I'm not going to waste my time when everyone seems to hardly reference what I've said.

Maybe you should go back and look at your own posts. What I'm saying is that you never mentioned Twito being suspicious until this morning. At the time you voted for Twito, you suddenly imply that the choice must be between Rabbit and Twito. Why is Twito's behaviour from yesterday suspicious to you now, when it didn't seem suspicious to you yesterday?
Now when pressed, you still never confirmed why you were suspicious of Twito.

So, other than RR's "consistency" going after Twito what reason do you have for voting Twito?

Based on the fact that both RR and Twito looked equally scummy yesterday, but that RR seemed to be more correct based on the lynch result from Livingod(minus his loony theory), I'm going to lean more towards RR being town and Twito being scum.

I'll reword my question to get an actual answer from you. Please give three clear and concise reasons why Twito and his posts are scummy.

[HackerHuck]

CES are you even sure we have a vig? Only one person died last night, and if we do have a vig that means he only has a limitted number of kills, or can only kill after a certain point.

Craplogic

Only having one kill means nothing. A good vig only kills if he has a good idea who the scum are. We can't even rule out an SK yet either.

I wouldn't take CES' vig assertion any more seriously than Twito's comment from the day before.

[HackerHuck]

RR who are you planning on investigating?

You are fishing. Blatantly fishing.

QFT

But then, so is this...

@Battlemage-if you are a roleblocker, would you have blocked RR last night? (Do not say whether or not you actually are a roleblocker, just answer the question I specifically asked.)

Kison's last few posts are starting to give me doubts about his scumminess. Maybe he's being clever scum and covering his tracks well, but I'm no longer in a hurry to hammer.

Unvote: Kison
FOS: Twito

[HackerHuck]

But then, so is this...

@Battlemage-if you are a roleblocker, would you have blocked RR last night? (Do not say whether or not you actually are a roleblocker, just answer the question I specifically asked.)

Do you honestly believe my question is anywhere near the same level of scumminess as Twito's? I specifically asked BM to not reveal his role, but to only reveal if he would have roleblocked RR if he was hypothetically a roleblocker. (I realize on rereading it that I messed up the grammar, the first are in my post should be a should be a were). Moreover, we already know that if RR is town, then something messed with his investigation; I'm not trying to out new information.

I feel BM's answer to this question will give me useful insight into BM's alignment; I don't see what Twitotown could want from his question.

I don't find your fishing to be on the same level as Twito's, hence the FOS on him and not you. Your question is pushing the envelope a bit, but on rereading your explanation I do find more value in the question.

Twito, scum will kill off his investigation, rendering it useless

Or perhaps there was a reason I went after Twito and he just provided us with another one?

and giving him an excuse for tomorrow....

Not really. If Twito dies and comes up innocent, I'd be a likely candidate for tomorrow.

IH - What are your thoughts on Twito's attempt to expose the cop's potential investigation? I know in a game with a similar situation, you were all for it. So this stance of yours does not surprise me in the least.

Now that I say Kison's looking more town, he starts acting scummy again. IH's point was that if Rabbit's target is killed, we've got yet another day in which Rabbit cannot prove his claim.

[HackerHuck]

Kison -
Why did you pick DoS as your "other" choice when your opinion on him is so vague?

[HackerHuck]

Kison -
Why did you pick DoS as your "other" choice when your opinion on him is so vague?

I have a vague opinion of many people, and I attribute it to the RR & Twito argument, which dominated a large part of day one. I chose DoS because upon my first read, I was getting bad vibes from him. I wanted to explore him once again.

I realise that the RR/Twito debate was a great smokescreen for the scum, but you have to have an opinion on someone. Picking DoS and then saying maybe/maybe not just seems to be playing it safe to me.

Since you mention the Twito/RR debate, who do you think did a good job of trying to blend into the background?

[HackerHuck]

First, I'm going to be unavailable until Friday, in case anyone notices. Second, I really like all the activity, but I'll have to wait until Friday to take a good look at it all. Third, I apologise for skimming the last few posts, but I don't quite understand this:

If Kison is lynched and comes up town, what sorts of people will you look at?
If Kison is lynched and comes up scum, what sorts of people wil you look at?

If Kison = Town; scumpossible(+1) = Zindaras, CES, DoS, Olio/Sefer; else scumpossible(+1) = Ectomancer, HackerHuck, logicticus.

I'm looking at Ectomancer (and to a lesser extent CES) either way.

Is there a difference between the scumpossible(+1)s or was that just outlining two different possible scum groups?

[HackerHuck]

I'm more on Ectomancer's side thinking that Kison's statements have been pretty scummy, but his claim is what pulled my vote off. I would like to see some examples.

What I don't really get, is all the talk about Clue and the detective. We already have a claimed cop; are you trying to cast doubt on RR's claim?

[HackerHuck]

Im already voting BM Zindy. I thought my comment was at least a slightly humorous way of expressing my views of his last recent actions.
He is 2nd in votes right now with a declining Kison wagon. It looks like he is feeling some pressure. So what Im reading is he felt pressured to echo everyone elses sentiment and jump off too. Only he misread what people were seeing, and stated the exact opposite assessment about Kison.
Now, he needs someone else for the spotlight and focuses on Olio/Sefer, trying to create a barn out of sawdust and has completely ignored the repeated requests for him to clarify his statements about Kison.

:GoodPosting:

I think that Twito's vote reeks of OMGUS and BM is being opportunistic.

Vote: BattleMage

I'm much happier with this wagon.

[HackerHuck]

It seems weird of Kison to suggest that the second kill is a result of an SK: Glork's flavor suggests only one scum group, and it's much more likely that the extra kill was a result of a vig or something of the inventor's backfiring.

I don't get this. One game was broken (same as in day one) and the other game was burned. The opening post indicates that we're looking for the group that broke chess. I don't see how that precludes an SK from burning. It does go against Kison's theory that the scum targeted RR night one, unless there's still another scum group out there. I don't think a vig would target RR as a cop, but I said earlier in this game that a vig might choose not to kill night one. IIRC, there was some discussion around that topic, so I think I'll give it a reread.

Hrm... there are good points against Kison, but there's something new we need to consider now that we have scum dead. All of the dead townies (yahtzee, scrabble, pictionary, candyland, chess) are traditional American boardgames- while I don't know whether they originated in America (chess certainly didn't), they're all games one would expect anyone would know of, going back 50 years or more. Settlers of Catan, on the other hand, is a German board game that's only about a decade old and still isn't mainstream in America.

I was wondering if I should bring that up. Setlers is a euro game, it paved the way for many other euro games to come to the states.... that actually fits with a mafia goon....

I also don't get what you're trying to say here.


With only one dead scum, I don't think it's in the best interest of the town to speculate on what the flavor is supposed to be for the scum roles.

Jalyn brings up a good point against Kison that I'm struggling to reconcile with my gut feeling about the wording of his claim.

Kison, without referencing any of your other posts, please explain why you think Twito is such a good lynch target today.

[HackerHuck]

Twito's day one actions were good enough of a reason for me to go after him on day two, however, that was more of a beginning point to start at on the day, and mainly due to the lack of developments on day one.

Day two, he comes out of nowhere in the middle of discussion and begins making a case against our

claimed cop

with nothing to support his case nor any consideration to whether his claim was true. But then a few posts later he begins

asking

Rabbit who he plans on investigating. I don't know how this went so unnoticed, because this is in no way of benefit to know before the investigation actually takes place while allowing scum to take initiative and kill the person that Rabbit is about to investigate in order to eliminate a confirmed townie for the town to not have to worry about lynching later in the game.

OK, I can understand your points with the day two reasons, but what about day one? I recall asking you that question yesterday, but I don't think I got a satisfactory answer.

[HackerHuck]

@HH, IH: I don't think that considering what might be a scum role and what might be a town role is a bad idea. I'm not saying we should make it the only basis of a decision, I'm just saying we should take all the information we have into account before making a decision. We only have one dead scum, but all the dead town fit a theme the scum didn't. It's already clear that my original theory about who town members are (games popular in America for a long time) can't work if Jalyn is town; I forgot her Cranium claim. Cranium's American, but it's late 90s. Still, scum could be eurogames and town everything else. It does influence my thinking on Kison because, as I stated yesterday, I think he's probably Monopoly but I had no reason to think Monopoly was or was not scum; now I have a reason to think that game isn't scum. Doesn't stop me from looking at the case against him, but does give me more to think about.

What are the odds that someone will claim a "Euro-Game" now?

Apparently not good...

Okay, I see.

Well, with this whole theory out there, I feel that it is necessary to claim. For if it is true, then I would surely die the coming night.

I am Masons with IH. I am Axis&Allies, he is Risk. Innocence isn't guaranteed, which is why I'm claiming.

Zindy, I don't get why you claimed nor do I get why you would die the following night.


I must curse Thesp for posting those links. I just spent the last 90 minutes perusing that site.

[HackerHuck]

.....

I'd be more likely to believe one of you is zero percent, or one of you has their sanity messed up.

I'd say it would be cranium who would have their sanity messed around with, just because Trivial pursuit deals with facts, while Cranium is a different kind of game, isn;t it?

I haven't seen that term before. By zero percent do you mean that you don't think Jalyn would ever get a result?

At this point, I don't think it really matters whether there's a roleblocker or their sanity is messed up. Aside from the fact I'm on it, it's a good place to start. Given Twito's actions, it's pretty unlikely that both he and Sefer are scum. With Thok's point, that means you're likely sane, or you switch sanity (I can't remember the term for that).

I would also agree that now's the time to divulge any messages. If Ecty's right, the list of cleared people are in a bit of danger this evening and those on the other list are in danger of being lynched today or tomorrow.

[HackerHuck]

For what it's worth, neither Axis and Allies nor Risk falls into the Eurogames category.

This is why I didn't understand Zindaras' claim post. They are similar enough that it makes sense they would be masons.

I almost forgot. No one addressed the Vig vs SK issue. Is it assumed we have an SK, or does someone have a real reason to think we might have a Vig?

At this point I think it's not going to matter. A vig would be in the probably town group and the SK would be in the probably scum group. By tomorrow we should have a pretty good idea what we're dealing with.

I'm also a little confused about the Fritzler thing. Ectomancer seemed very confident about the die roll thing, which seemed like a rather wild theory to me and Thok is also discussing Fritzler like he's not an abnormal role. Is there some other game in which you guys have seen something like this before?

[HackerHuck]

Well, I know I lost a couple of posts as well. Mostly I responded to Thok's case and put together an analysis of the four others on Ectomancer's list. I came up with Kison and DoS at the top, but I'll try and put it all together again.

[HackerHuck]

I'm not sure that we can come to any conclusion about Twito's role and how it impacts our various flavors of cop yet. Although Zindaras' theory seems a bit awkward in practice, it is the only one besides Twito's that seems to make sense when we look at how it applies to other night abilities. I would find it hard to believe that his boosting ability only applied to our two claimed cops. Another more remote possibility is that Twito's role is not always 100% effective. That kind of fits in with the game, where the chutes and ladders are all of varying lengths.

Twito - I can't recall exactly why you claimed in the first place.

I'm still alright with sticking to the initial group that Ectomancer identified, until we get some more information regarding the potential sanity of the cops. That has me looking most at Kison or DoS.

I can't say I really understand why Thok felt I was avoiding conflict, nor how I appear to "know too much" about night actions. Sefer's reasoning is even more puzzling. What is my one badly thought out argument?

[HackerHuck]

Now that IH has put himself out on a limb for me, I guess I really do need to contribute now. I had been lurking a bit, mainly because I didn't (and still don't) like the distraction of discussing role names at this point in the game.

I'm up for either Kison or DoS right now, but I do like Kison a little better now. I never liked the fact that he pressured Raging Rabbit into lynching Livingod. His reasons on Twito are borderline non-existent and he hung onto that case like it was a slam dunk. I think what's pushed him back into my number one spot is his general lack of recognition toward Ectomancer's game theory. I understand that he's in the hot seat from it, but his conversation has steered more toward his two suspects in Twito and IH. I'm also bothered by his lack of the promised PBP (he's at lynch-2 IIRC) or at the very least, his analysis of IH or DoS whom he was looking into. I think I understand what Thesp is getting at with the BM interaction, but that's just the icing on the cake.

Vote: Kison

DoS has triggered my buttons based on some of the more recent comments, but it was a repetition of his day one behaviour that also got my attention. As Twito called it, he was jumping on a hot bandwagon without comment. I thought Twito was reaching at the time, but a similar thing happened day two -

Vote:Kison

Ectomancer makes some very good points.

That was his only explanation of his vote, even in the later posts. Oddly enough, he says this later on but I couldn't find anything in between...

I have never danced around it I clearly stated why I voted for you when I put my vote on you. I felt that ectomancer laid out a very good case.

But unlike him I did not like your claim, and as such am still voting for you. Also I do not feel that anyone else is a better lynch target right now.

I'll give him credit for finally explaining himself without using "yeah, what he said" in post #1112 He then jumps on the BM wagon a couple of hours later. Given the speed of the BM wagon (and the fact that it's BM), it's a little hard to draw any conclusions (+/-) from those last few votes.

FOS

DragonsofSummer
I won't say that these two can't be scum together, but I think there's a very good chance that at least one of them is.

BTW - when did Glork get a sex change?

[HackerHuck]

First, that was not really the bulk of why I'm voting for you. Secondly, you're not really seeing my point in bringing up those promised analyses. You even explained why it's important when you defended yourself against Thesp.

You're likely to die today. When the dust settles tomorrow morning, we'll all sit around and take a look at what happened today. We really have nothing to go on besides "Twito is scum, well maybe not now." A pro-town player would at least want us to gain something from their lynch and scum have nothing to gain by putting out a list of suspects that we could pore over.

[HackerHuck]

Livin god suggested a Thesp/Twito pair on day one. Can anyone remember the details? (I'm skimming the Thesp filter)

From what I recall of that connection, it was when Livingod was grasping at straws and he pointed out the fact that Twito was following Thesp's initial analysis. Rabbit made some other comments regarding the rather confusing interactions between those two. It's buried in with the big Rabbit/Twito mess, but it was basically about the fact that Twito and Thesp always think each other are scum when they're really not, so Twito was following Thesp even though he might think he's scummy.

It was a very odd discussion and definitely worth a reread (I'm still not sure I understand it all), but it also reminds me of a very common Twito type of thought process.

Does anyone know how Thesp busses? Was it anywhere close to how he was doing with Sefer?

After rereading the two of them, I'm not seeing the connection here. Outside of the obvious, Thesp seemed to be pushing at Ectomancer the most.

These are the roleclaims as I remember them. Are there any I forgot/misremembered?
Zindaras- Axis & Allies, Mason
IH- Risk, Mason
Fritzler- started no condition, now vanilla town (I wouldn't mind hearing an explaination for this; since he's already claimed vanilla I don't see how explaining his role could hurt town. Could also explain whether him saying Thok is town is role info or not, a question he's ignored a couple of times)
Ectomancer- trivial pursuit, cop
Twito- Chutes & Ladders, boost/blocker

Twito, I'd like to hear your target for last night if you don't think it would hurt town to hear it. From your distrust of me I'd guess that you'd block me, which could show that I'm not the burning killer (assuming we don't find a second group at some point). If you blocked someone else it'd narrow down the possible vig/serial killer list, so it's kinda up to you whether you think it'd be good to reveal that (if you think it's an SK, it'd be good; vig, bad).

Twito's claim is pretty believable from a flavour perspective, but have we been able to confirm two blocks in a given night?

Neither of last night's kills seemed to be good vig targets in my opinion. I think we're more likely to be dealing with two scum groups or a serial killer. That also makes sense with the number of pro-town power roles that have been claimed and revealed.

[HackerHuck]

Scum have flavor too obviously. Just because Twito has flavor doesn't mean that he's town.

I agree that flavor doesn't mean he's town, but the Chutes and Ladders does seem to fit with booster/blocker role. I don't think a booster/blocker is likely to be scum, but I wanted to make sure that he isn't just the blocker that has been targeting Rabbit/Jalyn.

~Well, with the backgammon scum, I think our euro game idea is out.

~DOS are you still here? What do you think about the deaths?

~Is it odd that we have two dead "goons"?

That seems a little premature to declare. Do you consider Backgammon to be an American style game?

[HackerHuck]

OK, time for me to get this game moving again.

Neither of last night's kills seemed to be good vig targets in my opinion. I think we're more likely to be dealing with two scum groups or a serial killer. That also makes sense with the number of pro-town power roles that have been claimed and revealed.

Given that Kison came up protown, why wouldn't Thesp have been a good vig target?

Why do you think that scum/SK would target Thesp rather than the multitude of claimed power roles?

Now that you mention that second point, your assertion of Vig over SK makes sense. I'm not sure what I would read into CES' kill, considering I thought he seemed a bit scummy at the time.

I was just looking back and saw that a number of people had Thesp leaning town or strongly town in their eyes - myself included. I also didn't see that Kison turning up town really made him seem any scummier.

As for the mass claim, I'm no expert, but I think that if Ectomancer's theory is right then it's a good idea. If he's wrong, we could be screwing ourselves.

[HackerHuck]

Godfather, most definitely.

I need to stop scrolling up when I first check a thread. For a moment I actually thought you had claimed this.

If we're doing claims, I think we should have everyone claim, even those who already have. I'm fine if they go last so they can reread their original ones.

[HackerHuck]

We're obviously going to be discussing the claims and IIRC, out of the ten of us left, there have already been four or five claims. I'd rather have everything all in one place to discuss so I don't have to dig back through the thread to pick out where everyone claimed.

[HackerHuck]

I think for speed purposes, it's better to have everybody do a full role name/game name/flavor claim at once. There's an issue that if we spend too much time setting up a role claim, people will get bored/distracted from the game.

I'd also like to minimize the potential for any one person to stall things.

Good idea, but who is deciding on the order? I think everyone is overanalysing it a bit too much. Like you said, if someone's good at fake-claiming, then it doesn't really matter when they go. If they're not good at fake-claiming then I don't think it really matters either.

I do believe that you are mischaracterizing my actions on day one and two. I was going after RR pretty hard on Day 1 for his actions regarding Livingod and Twito. After his claim, I stopped pushing for his lynch. My case on Kison wasn't that he was going after RR, but the fact that he was pressuring RR into lynching Livingod Day 1. Doesn't your recent analysis of me kind of contradict your earlier claim that I was playing it safe by not pressing for anyone?

[HackerHuck]

I don't see any harm in getting that information now, but I also don't see that it really helps us to wait on DoS to provide it to us. We're still going to want everyone to claim.

I've already stated my suspicions on DoS, so I'm doubtful of the three investigators - especially if we've got a vigilante.

I'm Clue - vanilla townie. Although I'm a detective game, I'm just guessing at who the real killer is like everyone else.

[HackerHuck]

This is a strange question.

DOS, Do you play many board games?

I find it a little surprising that an alternating role would not start on day/night one. Was there a reason you chose not to divulge your alternating ability with the initial claim and is there any flavor behind the alternating days?

[HackerHuck]

This is a strange question.

DOS, Do you play many board games?

Not really; Railroad Tycoon is IMHO an obscure game (compared to the others mentioned so far in the thread) and I can see why Nightfall would ask. It's worth mentioning that Thesp (known scum) gushed a lot about how good this game is in Kelly Chen's request a board game thread.

I'm still not sure what a yes or a no answer to that question would reveal. I also noticed that it's a "hot game" on the boardgame geek site. The second point is very important, since it's likely Thesp would assist in coming up with a fake claim. Has anyone here actually played that game?

Sorry about jumping the queue Ectomancer, I looked at Nightfall's list instead of yours.

[HackerHuck]

I'm Xiangqi (Chinese chess), vanilla townie. I have some flavor about being mad about the death of a sibling game.

(Yes, I realize that my claim looks a bit out of place, as the only old abstract strategy game we've seen other than chess. That's part of the reason I wanted to go a bit later, as my claim opened up the potential claimspace a bit.)

(I'll also note that I sort of hinted at this by my reaction to Fritz claiming he was now vanilla townie; I had considered the idea that he had copied my role as well as my alignment.)

Is that the same as Chinese Checkers?

Maybe Asian games are a second scum group...

Battleship seems like a killing role to me and I guess the smoldering bits could be from getting shelled. It does make me wonder why you picked Thesp though. I didn't think he was high on your suspicion list.

[HackerHuck]

Ewww a vig claim.

Does anyone else have any opinions about the correct mechanic, different role thing?

I could see the alternating days thing since train travel is notoriously slow (at least in the US). Twito's role also seems to support the possibility.

What other roles might fit? With both killing roles explained (mafia and vig), two cops, one doc, and a pro-town booster, I don't see any other pro-town options. Jalyn claimed to be blocked two nights in a row and I can't find whether Twito admitted to the night one block. If he did, then it could point to a mafia roleblocker. I can't think of any other scum roles that might apply here.

Is Sefer the last to go? Maybe Ectomancer can explain his selected order - even though Thok and I went out of turn.

[HackerHuck]

I think a few of us have assumed who they are, but I'd like Nightfall to confirm his targets. I'm not sure what NPC means, but we started with day.

[HackerHuck]

ANYWAY, I said Twito just because I don't like someone claiming Blocker in this game. All the mechanics... bleh they are not confirmed just because a mechanic sounds likely is all I'm saying.

Railroad tycoon could use the same mechanic for blocking, killing, tracking, or pretty much any other power.

Chutes and ladders is the same thing. It could be a blocker and a booster. Or it cold be a blocker and a killing method. Sending them up a ladder, where they fall and are shattered?

I don't really find a pro-town blocker/booster that hard to fathom in this game. With the number of power roles claimed on the town side, a blocker is more likely to affect a townie than scum and I'm still not sure what a booster would end up doing if it doesn't override a block. With the claimed power roles, the only one I think it could do something to would be the tracker, but I would see the booster doing what DoS has already claimed - viewing peoples' actions.

I don't know that we gain much from directing Nighfall's kill tonight. It's likely he'll be blocked tonight (unless we openly direct him to kill a townie) and his alignment will be cleared up later in the game if he's lying.

[HackerHuck]

I don't really see any harm in having this discussion and it might come to some good. To me it's beneficial to not focus our discussion on just one or two potential targets, since if Nightson's looking at one obvious choice a roleblocker will have an easier time targeting him.

I'm fine with a DoS lynch, but I don't really see a need to rush into it. I don't like the fact that Twito's boosting has no reasonable explanation. Have we seen any evidence that it might give someone a benefit during the day like extra votes?

I'd really like to hear what Zindaras has to say about all of this - and Fritzler, if he has been following along. Both have been silent all day if I recall.

[HackerHuck]

guys this is ridiculous.

unvote, vote:DoS

I agree with all of this, but I don't really want to see the day end without hearing from everyone else on the matter.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about needing the prod. I was waiting on DoS to give us his promised post or for us to get closer to deadline. I don't really have anything new to offer at the moment.

I'd hate to use information that we shouldn't have, but is it just me or did Twito lie about his claim? I thought he said he switched between Block and Boost.

I also thought this same thing, but we are talking about Twito and he might not have read his PM correctly. I still find it really odd that Jalyn didn't get a result on the night when Twito claimed to have boosted him.

Good catch on the deadline rule Sefer. I had to reread the rules to see that if deadline actually hits we end up with a no-lynch.

Do you guys actually think that DoS will come through with anything worthwhile or are we better off just dropping the hammer early to avoid a potential no-lynch at deadline?

[HackerHuck]

Well with three of us, that should minimise the chance of failure. I'll give myself a pretty big window that should allot DoS enough time to post. Since Zindy seems to be waiting until the day of deadline - I'm assuming he's six hours ahead of the mod - I will wait until tomorrow afternoon (my time) to drop the hammer if necessary. I'll check in between 2:00 and 6:00 PM (US - Pacific), which is about 28 hours from now.

[HackerHuck]

Unvote:
Vote: DragonsofSummer

[HackerHuck]

I'm more than a little saddened that Nightfall did me in to finish off the scum group. Someone sent me an image on night1 that gave me the ability to investigate someone. I had picked Nightfall and I got a guilty result. We had bandied about a few different scenarios for how to handle the info, but didn't get a chance to use it.

Good game town for pulling out a win. Nightfall hitting two scum definitely played into your hands. I was hoping that he would be more interested in killing town than scum, but he almost managed to pull it off.

[HackerHuck]

HH you should have claimed someone gave you an investigation. That would have been a great way to keep you alive, since you've just killed someone outside of your scumgroup.

I had debated claiming backup cop, but we decided on the theory of using DoS as a tracker. Unfortunately, we didn't give him enough info to flesh out a decent claim and with Thesp turning up scum, that sealed DoS' fate. I didn't think that just telling the truth would get me very far since it didn't prove I wasn't scum.

It was rather painful for me to watch the game after I died, knowing that Nightfall was the SK. I was hoping you guys would catch him as vengeance for killing off half the scum team.

[HackerHuck]

Why didn't you just claim the truth? Inventor gave you an inspect? = \

I thought the SK's kills would actually help us at first. When that backfired and Thesp died, we went to massclaim and I didn't have a good reason why I didn't claim the guilty result sooner.

[HackerHuck]

Yes, I will say that Ecto really blew this game open with his early game theory. At that point, I felt that a scum win was quite the long shot even though neither Thesp nor I seemed to be on anyone's suspicion list at the time.