Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Battle Mage]

congrats Zindaras and Primate
may i ask what the rules are concerning the election of Consuls.i.e. can the Consulmaker choose to be a Consul himself?
oh and btw, i

Vote for Tribune: Twito

[Battle Mage]

lol such opportunism from those so inexperienced. Perhaps you need advice on the rules of this game so we can proceed with the intent of killing SCUM.

[Battle Mage]

lol i believe there is a minimum length on the day. in fact, i dont think the day even starts until we elect tribunes.
Might i ask if there is any reason you want to kill me, other than the fact that i posted first?

[Battle Mage]

from the current behaviour, it might even be both!

Every Tribune has only one Veto.

So, amuse me, which one of the Consuls do you think is scum?

[Battle Mage]

oh, this looks like its going to be an incredibly fun game. Still, at least we can be pretty sure that the 2 Consuls are scum. Hopefully they wont be elected for more than one day.

Next person to make fun of Battle Mage gets my Tribune vote.

[Battle Mage]

you both seem pretty eratic in your haste to lynch someone without evidence. You seem to have a close relationship, and certainly are both slightly tipsy on the power.
actually, i will

Unvote, Vote: Raffles for Tribune

BM

So, Battle Mage, why are the both of us scum?

[Battle Mage]

well, you werent attacking me. In Mafia, its a rare occassion worth celebrating.

Yay! I got a vote!

BM, not complaining, but any reason?

Tribunal Vote Count

Raffles - 2(Raffles, Battle Mage)
Mastermind of Sin - 1(Zindaras)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cephrir - 1(Cephrir)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Panzerjager - 1(Panzerjager)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)

[Battle Mage]

oh yeh lol. Im the easiest target for scum on Day 1, because most noob scum pick up on the fact that i have made a couple bad decisions when i first started playing. Since then, ive spent more time deflecting personal comments than actual arguments relevant to the game.

[Battle Mage]

yes, but assuming they are scum, i see no reason why they would change their vote.
So-any ideas of how we can spend the next 6 days?

They can't execute you now anyways. If they were to read the rules, it would say that they can issue an execution after one week of playing.

[Battle Mage]

cheers dude. I highly doubt the reason is cop related, as if a cop had visited me, they would have spotted that i was protown.
Raffles, mind if we switch over?

Unvote, Vote Battle Mage for Tribune

[Battle Mage]

i dont think so. Please reference that game to me. Also, we are currently together in another game. Neither of us are dead YET.

Andrew, it should really go without saying, but you have my word that I will not actually execute anyone unless I find them scummy. I've actually only ever played with BM in one game before, and we both died N1, so I doubt that counts.

vote mastermind of sin

is good though. Until we know better, we should put the most solid players in the most powerful positions. Mos's main fault is that he's not great at getting people to go along with him, so this should help circumvent that.

@Panzer: No. Your king says that would be unecessary. Dropping more role info will not further convince people, and will just aid hannibalscum in coming up with claims. No offence, but the reason I don't want you on the tribune stand is because I don't think you're a particularly good player yet. You'd veto people for the wrong reasons. And you really, really, need to stop this habit of claiming early for bad reasons. I've seen you do it in a few games now, you figure that if you claim a your role, you will get someone to listen to you, be trusted more. All it really does though is tell the mafia who to actually kill, and prompt paranoia in a town. all the things you're trying to gain can also be gained by simply acting like a townie, putting forward your suspicions well, etc.

[Battle Mage]

seeing as my wagon lost steam...

Unvote, Vote: Raffles

[Battle Mage]

plus Panzer isnt usually the sort of person who lets the game mechanics affect his voting pattern. No offence.

Panzer: It's not that - we just don't believe your claim.

[Battle Mage]

indeed. i hope this is a sign that you will stop bugging me unnecessarily.
Besides, Mini 400 was AGES ago.

BM, never speak about how I play again because you don't know and before I called you a bad player in a different game you said that I was a good player. I belief it was in Mini 400.

Touchy.

[Battle Mage]

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

When I am tribune I get two vetoes. When I am not Tribune, I get no vetoes. I'd be a normal Tribune with 2 vetoes. Thats pretty much it.

[Battle Mage]

your attempt to palm off my suspicions on Panzer is also noted.

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

Everything

could

be a scum role. To be honest, I find it far more likely that he's town. Your attempt to cast doubt on Panzer is noted.

Zindy, I think your argumnet depends on how often a veto is used. I personally never played kingmaker before so I don't know, but someone else can fill me in for me on this one.

There are no vetos in Kingmaker.

[Battle Mage]

huh?

You're so linear, BM.

[Battle Mage]

sorry im having trouble understanding what you mean.
please just say it in english
BM

Let me put it this way, you're begging the question, so to speak.

[Battle Mage]

meh-ill believe it when i see it. So far all he is done is go off-topic and confuse me (and CES by the looks of it). I am very dubious of the amount of support he acquired before he even made a post-especially from both tribunes. Toaster Strudel voted for him without any reason whatsoever.
FOS: Toaster Strudel, Zindaras, Primate

MoS is a known quality player. That's why I voted him.

[Battle Mage]

how is confusing the town good?
As i say, ill personally assess his skill based on how he plays. So far he looks pretty scummy, but its not vote time yet. I havent been in a game with him (as far as i remember) so i will reserve judgement until this one has continued.

meh-ill believe it when i see it. So far all he is done is go off-topic and confuse me (and CES by the looks of it). I am very dubious of the amount of support he acquired before he even made a post-especially from both tribunes. Toaster Strudel voted for him without any reason whatsoever.
FOS: Toaster Strudel, Zindaras, Primate

MoS has a better track record than any other non-Consul in this game (and maybe even better than any Consul, too). MoS has experience and skill, and those two variables are most important.

Also, regarding the confusion thing, I think it was actually good for the town and that it was a bit of a shame that Cessy broke it so harshly.

[Battle Mage]

i originally voted for Twito because i thought he was a genuine sorta guy who would play the game honestly if he was town. He didnt turn up, and Raffles did, so i changed my vote to him. Evidently Raffles is active, and from his posts i would say he is perceptive. given a choice between someone who looks like clever scum (MoS) and someone who i feel will play the game properly, i chose Raffles. I still think he is the best candidate we have at the moment.
i will ask the same question about the MoS wagon. Why vote for him? i dont want the same old answer- "hes really good". How do you know he isnt scum?, and most of all, why has no-one picked up on the fact that BOTH consuls have voted for him?
BM

Raffles - the question wasn't

whether or not you could make substantial posts,

it was

whether you actually

had

. In other words - there is absolutely no reason for you to have such following - yet you do. Why? Is this inexperienced scum attempting to support one of their own, not realizing that they were giving themselves away? Newbies blindly following the person that they see the most? Quite frankly, I'd like to hear explanations from everyone who voted for Raffles as to why. It makes no logical sense.

[Battle Mage]

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.
The idea of a tribune is someone to keep the balance between the consuls and the ordinary people. Personally i would rather put my faith in someone who was a little less 'under the thumb' as they say.
i do not have the time to go through all 85 of your games, and i do not see the relevance. I agree that you are almost certainly an EXPERIENCED player, but whether or not you are a good one remains to be seen. Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

BM

i originally voted for Twito because i thought he was a genuine sorta guy who would play the game honestly if he was town. He didnt turn up, and Raffles did, so i changed my vote to him. Evidently Raffles is active, and from his posts i would say he is perceptive. given a choice between someone who looks like clever scum (MoS) and someone who i feel will play the game properly, i chose Raffles. I still think he is the best candidate we have at the moment.
i will ask the same question about the MoS wagon. Why vote for him? i dont want the same old answer- "hes really good". How do you know he isnt scum?, and most of all, why has no-one picked up on the fact that BOTH consuls have voted for him?
BM

Raffles - the question wasn't

whether or not you could make substantial posts,

it was

whether you actually

had

. In other words - there is absolutely no reason for you to have such following - yet you do. Why? Is this inexperienced scum attempting to support one of their own, not realizing that they were giving themselves away? Newbies blindly following the person that they see the most? Quite frankly, I'd like to hear explanations from everyone who voted for Raffles as to why. It makes no logical sense.

BM, isn't the fact that both Consuls voted me generally a point in my favor? The consulmaker picked fairly experienced and reliable players, and the chances of both being scum are slim to none. The fact that both of them would trust me with Tribune is just a monument to my perceived experience by other good players.

Also, if you bothered to read my other games, you'd notice that I look scummy in most every game, regardless of alignment. I think it has something to do with the fact that I don't really care about looking protown. My priorities are not to protect myself, but to protect the town and search out all the scum. If the town lynches me because of my methods (which are tried and true), so be it. At least after I'm dead they'll know I was protown and can lynch the scumbags I found.

If you want an example of my playing ability, check out Himalayan Mafia. With a mountainous setup (no power roles, just scum and townies), I helped lead lynches on scum Day 1 and Day 2, then opposed the Day 3 lynch where the town mislynched. I was killed Night 3, the same night that I figured out both of the remaining scum. This is verifiable by asking several of the people I told my suspicions to when I died, including LML, the scum that everyone else considered cleared except me and Lloyd. Ironicly enough, I think that was one of the games where no one thought me particularly scummy. Of course, part of the reason I don't mind looking scummy is that no scum bothers to kill me since they figure they can get me lynched. Games like Himalayan where I manage to look protown, the scum get all scared and kill me off (I was told that the scum actually tried to kill me Night 2, but missed the deadline and had a random kill instead).

Does that answer your question, BM, or are you still unsure of your parameters?

[Battle Mage]

im glad you find this game so hilarious.
the first few comments u have made are clearly WIFOM, whether you like it or not. of course i care about your level of skill, but id prefer to find out for myself than by reading games that have ended a long time ago. My brief experience since this game began has not been particularly convincing.
ROFL. For someone who doesnt think of themselves as conceited, you do like to talk about yourself alot dont you?

personally i will judge a players skill based on my experience of them. For all i know, most of the people backing you are scum in this game. This being the case i choose to trust my good honest self over any amount of potential liars.
please reference me to these snide comments that have you so worked up. i dont see any reason why you should be upset, as i dont believe i have insulted you. Ive merely expressed a doubt that you are trustworthy. If you find this offensive, im very surprised you lasted 85 games of Mafia.

[Battle Mage]

that is my current opinion anyway. It is quite possible, as the Consulmaker has no idea of who is scum when he made his first choice.
i obviously dont think all voters for MoS are scum, however i think the wagon has its fair share of scum in there.
lol at the little dialogue. Really productive. Im sure a career in script writing awaits.

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.

The chance for that is ridiculously slim. Also, if this were the case, town is screwed for today anyway.

Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

I like how you say this but you also talk every game about how good you are at scumcatching because you caught scum that one time.

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

What the?

This is just outright stupid.

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

*nods*

I like that.

ROFL. For someone who doesnt think of themselves as conceited, you do like to talk about yourself alot dont you?

...

Let me boil down what you're doing:

*Battle Mage walks up to MoS*
Battle Mage: Hey MoS, how are you?
MoS: I'm pretty good.
Battle Mage: What do you do nowadays?
MoS: Well, I train owls to say ORLY.
Battle Mage:

O RLY?

MoS:

YARR RLY!

Battle Mage: NO WAI!

Battle Mage: Well, you sure like to talk about yourself, don't you, you conceited little person?
MoS: ...

personally i will judge a players skill based on my experience of them. For all i know, most of the people backing you are scum in this game. This being the case i choose to trust my good honest self over any amount of potential liars.

There are six people voting MoS? Add MoS, makes 7. You think there's seven scum? You think there's some forum-wide conspiracy to make everyone believe that MoS is a good player, while in reality he has the IQ of a flea?

Its been a week, we have no tribune. If consuls were mafia, it'd be night.

For one, that'd be way too obvious. For two, we can't execute people during the Tribune voting, see my fake execution on Battle Mage.

[Battle Mage]

i never said the consulmaker was scum.
i just said that he probably didnt have any clue of the affiliation of his consuls. In future, if you wish to argue with me, try saying something different, rather than repeating what i have just said.

Battle mage: Read the rules. The Consulmaker MUST be town. As for whether or not he acted without information, he must have unless he was a cop (don't claim), or had another informational role. I would expect, however, that he would have to submit the choices at the same time. We can be certain, however, that he would not intentionally pick two scum as consuls. It is oh-so-tempting to ask for a BM execution for sheer annoyingness.

[Battle Mage]

lol its a conspiracy! Sadly, i agree. I mean, what is the use of the tribune protecting their fellow protown players? surely they would be better off vetoing the players who lick their boots the most!
Anyway while i am still alive and kicking:

Kison-why is it that you feel the need to back up reasonably thought out arguments with mindless insults, yet you dont feel the need to contribute to the actual game?

[Battle Mage]

ok. so-any objections to lynching me?

[Battle Mage]

AndrewS presents a reasonable argument. Based on the keenness of Cephrir to join the "lets all lynch BM" crew, i think he could well be noob scum...

Vote:Cephrir

[Battle Mage]

everyone knows that i am the easiest Day 1 lynch on the entire site, because very few people like me, and even less consider me of value to the town. I am now very suspicious of those who use this tactic of "lets get BM off early. Even when he comes up town, no1 will miss him".
It is especially scummy when young players do it.
BM

Let's all lynch BM crew? You mean a band wagon? I see no band wagon. Sounds terribly OMGUS-esque to me...

[Battle Mage]

hmm... ive never played a game with Masterchief-only ever replaced him on multiple occassions.

BM, it takes a lot to be the "easiest Day 1 lynch on the entire site". I don't think you're there yet, you have the likes of Max and Masterchief to live up to, not even counting those who came before them.

[Battle Mage]

welcome HH!

[Battle Mage]

hey, if they can make a joke, so can i
Id currently be happy with an Eyeofmordor/Cephrir lynch today. Dont worry though,

IGMEOY: Rand Althor

I would choose BM first. He went hysterical over your joke and basiclly demanded people vote him. Have to reread after that.

[Battle Mage]

This. Protection of Cephrir seems like over-defensive scum. Tries to get me lynched with zero evidence.

I say we just execute BM. He's been acting more of a noob scum then Cephrir has in my opinion.

[Battle Mage]

oh no, i dont mind people attacking me, as long as it is justified.

*The Jivemachine-What do you mean by 'my constant calling for a lynch'?

And to me, your support of a EOM execution looks like OMGUS.

Also he never says he thinks that Cephrir is innocent, just that you're scummier.

QFT.

BattleMage, have you ever thought that just because people attack you, that maybe they have a point and therefore could possibly

not

be scum? Every time someone says anything that contradicts your plan or theories, you seem to go OMGUS on them and name them scum. That looks incredibly bad. But not only that, it flaws your contribution. So if you're unable to contribute, and you look scummy, why should we lynch an inactive over you?

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

Cephrir - 3(AndrewS, Battle Mage, Toaster Strudel)
livingod - 3(Panzerjager, HackerHuck, Raffles)
Rand Althor - 1(

Primate

)
Battle Mage - 1(Cephrir)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(ubertimmy)

[Battle Mage]

you are both wrong, Ubertimmy has posted. A quick look at the votecount would tell you that.
Because he is not the least active person here and yet you fail to mention others, i think that you just be trying to kill him because of his most recent contribution: A vote on TEOM.

FOS: Kison, Panzer

Ok, although I myself lean towards an Ubertimmy lynch, seeing as he hasn't posted at all in this thread from what I can see, yet is active elsewhere on the sight, I don't at all like the wording of Panzerjager. If a prod brought Ubertimmy around, then I would see what he had to say. So I'm going to hold off on voting Ubertimmy because I think that was a rather offensive move on Panzerjager's part.

[Battle Mage]

lol this post literally stinks. Not only did u misrepresent my comments, but you inferred you were scum on 2 occassions.
For the record, i highly doubt that BOTH Panzer and Kison are scum with you, but as i cant distinguish between them atm, i FOSed them both. Besides, at this stage of the game, fairly experienced players like them will know that such a vote is likely to go unnoticed, or at least not provoke a major reaction. If you turn out scum, Ubertimmy is far more likely to be town, because no scum in their right mind would make their only contribution to the game a vote on their scumbuddy.
BM

@BM: As far as I can see your reasoning is that since I am scum and voting you, Town ubertimmy sees that and votes me. Fellow scum Panzer and Kison help me cover up by voting for ubertimmy and as a result 3 scum have now given themselves away...
I think not.
The only thing I have noticed about ubertimmy is that he said he didn't want to vote for Tribunes and then the post where he votes me. Altohugh I can understand reasoning behind TheEyeOfMordor votes the fact that he votes for me and hasn't really done much else doesn't say much for him even if I would turn out scum.

[Battle Mage]

ill explain then. Not only would the scum be being counter-productive by lurking, the last thing the scum want would for his ONLY contribution to be a vote AGAINST them.
if i was scum and did something like that, you can bet ur savings that id be disowned before you can say: WIFOM.

My last post was supposed to be somewhat sarcastic.
And I don't see any reason why a lurking scum wouldn't vote for his scumpartner. I wouldn't put any townie/scumminess on the factor that a lurker wanted to vote me.

[Battle Mage]

no i didnt. is your comprehension ok, or are you deliberately being faciscious?
You obviously have no intention of helping the town, courtesy of your last sentence. your desperation to argue with me is also rather scummy.

Did you just say your own argument was WIFOM? I totally agree, but that sort of defeats the purpose of arguing. The sad thing is, I'm going to keep my vote on you just because I don't want to listen to you anymore.

[Battle Mage]

no. if you are finding the game that tough, i suggest u ask to be replaced. Then you dont have to speak to us ever again.

Anyone know if there's an ignore option on this site?

[Battle Mage]

Now THIS is hypocrisy.

Alright, I agree with Strelz/TEOM, that decide right now if we want to lynch players who have a problematic playstyle. This is good and bad and isn't quite conducisive to scum catching but it is execellant for killing of the newer players and the idiots as quickly as possible. This could later be conducive to scum catching when all we have is players who can catch scum, not players like BM that spout off at the mouth with poor reasoning and very little thinking. I think he posts just to insult others. BM, you're doing a very very very bad Twito impression. Twito actually catchs scum. You just look like an ass, and quite the idiot.

[Battle Mage]

its hypocrisy when someone has a go at me for insulting someone, and in the same post, insults me repeatedly.
Im ok with an N9V lynch-if anyone cares.
BM

Care to post something constructive?

BM, how on earth is it hypocrisy?

[Battle Mage]

the feeling is mutual, but i care more about lynching scum than lynching an idiot.

Quite frankly, I am always up for a dead Battle Mage. It goes with the territory.

[Battle Mage]

by executing somebody else, it is naturally presumed that nothing is going to be done with me today.
@MoS,AndrewS-why do you want to kill the Consulmaker? hes protown, and is needed to lynch someone. The only people who would want him dead are scum, or psychopaths

Personally I think it would have been better to decide beforehand how we are dealing with BM before we executed somebody.

[Battle Mage]

you dont trust me to do what? give the job of consul to protown players?

@MoS,AndrewS-why do you want to kill the Consulmaker? hes protown, and is needed to lynch someone. The only people who would want him dead are scum, or psychopaths

Egad. Do you not see the giant rules post at the beginning of this game? Are you completely daft? If the current consulmaker dies, the role of consulmaker passes to a random Roman citizen. We were saying that we'd have to kill you if you were consulmaker, because in general, we don't trust you. If you'd like, we can meet over AIM and discuss how to improve your play...

[Battle Mage]

hmm... I find the choice of consuls pleasing. The tribune votes so far are very much less so.
later ill have a look at who should be our tribune for today.
BM

[Battle Mage]

lol cheers for the subtly concealed insult.
I think i will Vote: Twito (for tribune)
If you want me to be a tribune, go for it. Perhaps it will help me convince you that im not scum.

Inactive - if they are inactive now, why would electing them as a tribune make them active? If anything, they would sit on their arses even more because they can't get executed.

Scummy - I can see a few positives, but how would you go around electing a scummy one without telling him he is scummy? I mean, try electing BM. How much would you have to stretch reason to convince him that he was elected because he would make a good tribune?

[Battle Mage]

actually, im not sure. Some people have said that they think i look scummy, but quite frankly, i get that in all my games. I wouldnt say it was anything out of the ordinary. I maintain that those who campaign for me the hardest are probably scum themselves.

Was never intended as insult, more of an observation. There's no denying that others think you are scummy, and you know this too.

[Battle Mage]

yes, because imo, i think i would make a decent tribune.
Also, up to this point, you hadnt been one of the people i expect to patronise me every other post.

Exactly. You are so used to it in all games that if I told you I want to elect you as tribune because you would make a good one, would you believe it?

[Battle Mage]

i wouldnt go that far. Are we absolutely CERTAIN that N9V was scum?

Vote: Primate

for now.
Don't have much to say except that Zindaras shot well when he slew N9V~.
However I am feeling that we should at some point have a change of people at the helm to avoid them being scum. The death of a scum day 1 is a perfect way to cement townieness...

[Battle Mage]

i was just checking. It didnt explicitly say that he was Mafia. I thought perhaps he could have been an SK. Most Mods put scum in red, and protown in green. As this hadnt happened, i wanted to make sure that we werent basing a judgement on something that wasnt confirmed.

Vote: Primate

for now.
Don't have much to say except that Zindaras shot well when he slew N9V~.
However I am feeling that we should at some point have a change of people at the helm to avoid them being scum. The death of a scum day 1 is a perfect way to cement townieness...

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Twito

for Tribune

[Battle Mage]

if you want to be tribune you should really try and stay active.
it would also help if you voted for yourself, as currently you arent going to get in.

Hey I'm reading but it's taking a while as I have limited amount of time each day and I'm trying to keep up with other games while reading this one. I don't mind being Tribune tho

[Battle Mage]

that does seem rather pointless. I find it odd how drastically you change your tune at the first sign of opposition.

For probably the first time ever, I agree wholly with Kison's last two posts.

I don't have any intention to elect Twito as a tribune. The sole reason I did it is to get people talking.

Unvote, Vote: Zindaras

[Battle Mage]

just seems a bit odd that you went out of your way to change your vote to Twito-in order to provoke discussion. THEN, when you start to get discussion, you change your vote back, when you realise that you are attracting unnecessary attention on yourself.

*smack head*

*sigh*

Let's get some discussion going guys. Maybe a competition might help. The definite tribune is probably killing it.

Unvote, Vote: Twito

For probably the first time ever, I agree wholly with Kison's last two posts.

I don't have any intention to elect Twito as a tribune. The sole reason I did it is to get people talking.

Unvote, Vote: Zindaras

Change in tone???

[Battle Mage]

yes, and that being the case, your vote on Twito would have changed nothing. Makes me wonder why you bothered to move it.

Has it crossed your mind that today is the deadline?

[Battle Mage]

err... Bah?
Go town...i think...
:O

[Battle Mage]

no, its a belated April Fools Joke.
CES just told me on AIM.

Day Vig. So he can kill people during the day. Looks like he hit a bomb or something.

[Battle Mage]

lol yeh. I wondered how i had been DayVigged, and my role had come up different!

[Battle Mage]

dude-im not dead!
Thanks for the concern though
For the record, i dont think Zindy is above suspicion at the moment.

As far as the deaths go:
We have had 2 deaths each night.

Night 1 is blank. I find day 1 execution very interesting, I'll get back to this. Night 2 the death of Andrews who was very protown is a shame but Toaster Strudels kill doesn't really make sence as scum skill so I'm leaning towards vigilante. BM's death was sad I liked him.

[Battle Mage]

true. the whole thing was pretty unnerving and odd, but its not the first time something like that has happened to me.

Besides, if he was a death miller, why reveal that bit?

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Zindaras - 1(Twito)

[Battle Mage]

actually it was because i knew i was protown, but was confused at coming up scum. The go town bit was genuine, but i was unsure of the reasoning behind my role coming up different.
As for voting Twito tribune, its hardly surprising for me, seeing as he is one of the few people i expect to make a good decision in a game like this. Surprisingly im quite hopeful today. With MoS as Consul, i figure that i cant lose. If he chooses to lynch me, it will be funny because he is wrong. If he doesnt choose to lynch me, i get to live another day.
i still feel that Primate/Zindy are pretty scummy. At least 1 of them is scum imo, though obviously those views dont do alot of good today.
BM

Some thoughts: I liked Zindaras' reign, but I'm no so sure about about Primate, but that's probably just his inactivity.

TEOM hasn't struck me either way so far

TJM hasn't contributed much since replacing in, except for calling for more contribution from lurkers when he hadn't posted in four days

small fos

UT is lurking hardcore

Rand Althor... wow, can't say I'm too impressed with his contributions. Probably not scum with Battle Mage.

Twito: Lurking hardcore.

Kison: Despite posting quite a bit, has avoided sharing thoughts as to who he thinks is scum, instead focusing on the validity of my predecessors roleclaim and Battle Mage's head hurting logic. Called for a lurker lynch. Latest posts are wish washy.

FoS Kison

Hackerhuck: Has struck me as pro-town so far, like the way he replaced in, agree with a lot of his points, has been logical and consistent.

Battle Mage: Geh. Has voted Twito for tribune days 1 and 2. Vote hopped a bit. I disagree with him virtually everywhere, except that I do agree Cephrir needs to post more content. Intgeresting reaction to the April fool's joke: "go town...I think..." implies that maybe he thought he wasn't town? Could just be BM being BM of course.

MoS: Has struck me as pro-town. I'll be interested to see his LoE since it will probably be his longest post since his election campaign post.

Raffles: I'm leaning fairly strongly pro-town here. Has seemed insightful and logical. The early wagon on him is worrying: if some of them turn up scum it might be worth looking at him again.

Cephrir: Somewhat scummy, on the early Rafflewagon, got embroiled with BM and hasn't posted much content.

Small FoS: Cephrir

Livingod: Lurking hardcore, voted for my predecessor as tribune when he'd done nothing to deserve it. Definitely needs to contribute more.

IGMEOY Livingod

Yeah, this post was pretty rushed.

[Battle Mage]

you make me sound like dryrot.
*blushes



[quote="TheEyeOfMordor"] Still suffering from the Battle Mage problem, which I believe we need to make a decision about.
quote]

[Battle Mage]

Well I am thinking BM is the way to go today I don't like how he tried to push himself as a tribune when Zindie made that joke. He seemed very defensive.

you would be pretty defensive if the 2 consuls started joking around about quicklynching you.
it doesnt have any impact on affiliation.

you both seem pretty eratic in your haste to lynch someone without evidence. You seem to have a close relationship, and certainly are both slightly tipsy on the power.
actually, i will Unvote, Vote: Raffles for Tribune
BM

Quite eratic voting for tribune here.
[/quote]
quite frankly, i was trying to find someone who might actually protect me from a day 1 quicklynch. again, thats something any enthusiastic player would naturally do.

well, you werent attacking me. In Mafia, its a rare occassion worth celebrating.

Very bad resoning (maybe voting for a scummate)

seeing as my wagon lost steam...

Unvote, Vote: Raffles

Ah back to scummate raffles now his wagon is over.

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

Tries to put suspision on Panzer.

[/quote] legitimately.

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.
The idea of a tribune is someone to keep the balance between the consuls and the ordinary people. Personally i would rather put my faith in someone who was a little less 'under the thumb' as they say.
i do not have the time to go through all 85 of your games, and i do not see the relevance. I agree that you are almost certainly an EXPERIENCED player, but whether or not you are a good one remains to be seen. Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

BM

Here he tries to push suspision on the consuls and a popular choice for tribune (suspision of the consuls was good)

everyone knows that i am the easiest Day 1 lynch on the entire site, because very few people like me, and even less consider me of value to the town. I am now very suspicious of those who use this tactic of "lets get BM off early. Even when he comes up town, no1 will miss him".
It is especially scummy when young players do it.
BM

Ah one of those pity the Noob statements classic scum.

actually, im not sure. Some people have said that they think i look scummy, but quite frankly, i get that in all my games. I wouldnt say it was anything out of the ordinary. I maintain that those who campaign for me the hardest are probably scum themselves.

Again with the I'm always scummy defence
BM is the best decision today

Vote:BM

[/quote]

quite frankly im not sure about you. this aggressive attack would suggest scum, but i suppose some of the evidence is reasonable for a vote. perhaps it is self-preservation, seeing as you were a popular decision for a lynch today...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Primate: would you like to reveal your conclusions from your reads?

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Zindaras - 1(Twito)
livingod - 1(Raffles)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)

[Battle Mage]

i dont think its really worth getting worried about. Zindy is scum, so its hardly surprising that she wants us dead...
what would be concerning is if the consuls go along with this, but i have good faith in our consuls today.

@MoS: You havent said anything that would imply that you wanted to execute me. I have faith in you to make the right decision today. As for who I think is scum, im frankly not sure. Outside of Zindy and possibly Primate, i havent really thought about it in depth.
Ill reread later and come up with something decent.

I'm quite concerned by the fact that Zindie has already decided to execute one of three without taking into consideration of anyone else, or without doing any discussion. What's worse, you don't give any other reason for any of the three of us other than gut (from what I gather, or have I missed something?).

[Battle Mage]

dont be bossy. you arent Consul anymore.
FYI: The only time i was lynched as scum was not really because i made a mistake as such. it was because i changed my mind about someone. I can genuinely say, that, knowing my own playstyle, thats something i do as town and scum. Also, i was lynched before i could claim which makes it null and void.
However, i admit that my case on Zindy and Primate isnt worthy of a lynch at this point. I need to get my thoughts together and make an actual case for them, so i dont get shouted at across the INTRANET.
i need a reread as its also true that i am low on suspects at the moment. I think HH and MoS are probably town (or at least, i would like to think so ). however, i will reserve full judgement until i see their decision.
IOU 1 reread.
BM

But to say BattleMage is probably a scum because he is acting scummy is even sillier. We all know that is not how it works with BM.

You can't allow the guy to get away with posting scummy things every time simply because "it's just BM". I will not allow him to simply post whatever the hell he wants and not be expected to validate any of his suspicions.

[Battle Mage]

im a BOOK now?
alright then: HOW THE HELL IS THE BOOK USING THE COMPUTER KEYBOARD????
Nah seriously, Raffles is right. In your scenario, you try and read the book, but end up convincing yourself that the half-truth you have learnt is correct, when actually it isnt. On the other hand, Raffles chooses not to read the unclear book, instead making opinions of his own.
In this analogy, Raffles probably watched the film

with subtitles

.
BM

What? I don't understand that anology at all.

And to answer your question, it depends. I could be long sighted, or the book is written in the language I don't understand. But I would doubt it's because the writing is scribbly.

In all those cases, it is your fault. If you can't read the book because it's in a different language, then you should learn the new language, and if the writing is difficult to read, you should look closer.

BM is the book. You choose to discard the book and take the risk that something very important is written in it, I choose to squint and read as much as I can.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Zindaras - 1(Twito)
livingod - 1(Raffles)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)

[Battle Mage]

pretty simple really. In this analogy, the book is my play over previous games. Raffles chooses to form his own opinions based on how i play now, whereas you think you will get a better representation from a book you just dont understand. Actually this whole conversation is a bit elementary but ah well.
Kison, i think you should be more concerned with helping yourself, rather than looking for 'slip-ups' that cannot exist.
i will reread the thread in a bit because i can barely recall most of Day 1.

im a BOOK now?
alright then: HOW THE HELL IS THE BOOK USING THE COMPUTER KEYBOARD????
Nah seriously, Raffles is right. In your scenario, you try and read the book, but end up convincing yourself that the half-truth you have learnt is correct, when actually it isnt. On the other hand, Raffles chooses not to read the unclear book, instead making opinions of his own.
In this analogy, Raffles probably watched the film

with subtitles

.
BM

How can you have a correct opinion about a book that you cannot read? You can't.

[Battle Mage]

still rereading, but for now im going to throw a vote on Livingod.
Heres the reason:

1. He has made very little contribution to the game.
2. He has been very non-committal.
3. N9V, the only known scum, voted for him in a manner which looked very much like he was voting for his scumbuddy. He previously sought reassurance that his vote didnt mean anything, and then proceeded to vote Livingod in order to distance himself from his scumbuddy, with little consequence to himself.

Vote: Livingod

[Battle Mage]

because, by all accounts, you seem to be a popular lynch target for today.

Kison, i think you should be more concerned with helping yourself, rather than looking for 'slip-ups' that cannot exist.
i will reread the thread in a bit because i can barely recall most of Day 1.

Why should I be helping myself?

[Battle Mage]

so this is basically metagaming vs non-metagaming?
that being the case, i have to say the former is better when you can use it well. Dont get me wrong, dont feel you have to regard my previous play as an excuse for acting scummy, but the fact is, you have to take all factors into account. If i always look scummy to you, (and i have only actually been killed as scum once btw) when most of the time i am not actually scum, you need to find a better way of reading me. If i am acting the same 'scummy' as i always do, as town and scum, you dont have a case on me atall. That is adapting to suit your circumstances.
personally i dont think my actions are generally scummy, but others seem to. Ironically, they are almost always wrong. In fact, as a bit of advice for you-its when im not acting scummy that you need to watch me.

@Kison-not only is it the responsibility of the consuls to actually make the execution, it is most notably, the town who guides them. A town will be very wary of consuls who ignore them. Likely, consuls who dont listen to the town wont be elected again (by the consulmaker). It is a good test of the consuls to see if they follow the wishes of the town, or deliberately defy them. This is what can be gained from town speculation.#

BM

pretty simple really. In this analogy, the book is my play over previous games. Raffles chooses to form his own opinions based on how i play now, whereas you think you will get a better representation from a book you just dont understand. Actually this whole conversation is a bit elementary but ah well.

This statement is incorrect. Raffles refers to earlier games, saying you're "always scummy".

I choose not to ignore you.

[Battle Mage]

ooh interesting. im assuming there are reasons behind all those choices?
ill do mine a bit later, and respond to Zin.

I would like the following players to give me their extensive opinions on certain players:

Player Name - Players I want them to analyze:

Zindaras - livingod, Primate
TheEyeOfMordor - Twito, Zindaras
TheJiveMachine - Zindaras, Battle Mage
ubertimmy - HackerHuck, Cephrir
Primate - Kison, Rand Althor
Rand Althor - Shanba, Mastermind of Sin
Twito - ubertimmy, Shanba
Kison - Battle Mage, Raffles
HackerHuck - Rand Althor, Raffles
Battle Mage - Kison, TheEyeOfMordor
Shanba - Primate, The EyeOfMordor
Raffles - HackerHuck, Kison
Cephrir - ubertimmy, Primate
livingod - Rand Althor, Cephrir

[Battle Mage]

yes, i had noticed your overly aggressive attitude when faced with the slightest suspicion. Its one of the reasons i still find you very suspicious. As for metagaming me, i dont think anyone really can, as my playstyle hasnt really settled yet. plus if you want to see me as scum, you only have one game to go on, in which i was quicklynched so it isnt a great indication.
Anyway, i dont really see why you would take such an aggressive stance towards me, unless you had something to hide. I havent even provided a decent case against you but you seem very defensive. "Mauling me till you get what you want"? what is it you want? me to stop drawing attention to your dubious behaviour.
Sorry, but that aint gonna happen. By continuing to attack me on very little grounds, you simply draw attention to your own scummy behaviour.

BM
*response to MoS pending.
also,

FOS: Rand Althor

for his obvious desperation to get me executed.

I do not believe that at this point, you are easy to metagame. I don't know for sure how to metagame you. So I maul the living daylights out of you until I get what I want.

Harsh? Maybe.

[Battle Mage]

Analysis of Kison

Interesting play this game. He has been generally consistent in his suspicions and voting, however a reread has left me a little confused, as his analysis of me is in direct contradiction to his comments throughout the game.
60% of his early game posts were attacks on my logic, yet in his analysis, he claims that i have made alot of valid contributions to the game.
If its ok, Kison can you please reference me to where i made good comments, because you certainly havent mentioned them before?

Im not sure whether he is scum or just plain annoying at this point. One thing i am pretty sure of, is he is getting very overdefensive. His comments about Raffles and myself are very complimentary, something that his playstyle doesnt usually deal in. I get the impression he is trying to suck up to the remaining players in an attempt to save himself from execution. Of course, this doesnt mean he IS scum, but before i comment further, id like an answer to the question posed above.

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol i wont, im just waiting for Kisons response before i go on.
BM

now we're getting somewhere Don't forget TEOM, Battle Mage. ^_^

[Battle Mage]

aggressive and proactive maybe, but unusually so. In most games i have played with you, you are far more easy going. I dont believe i have seen you as scum before, therefore it is pretty logical to say that your different style could be an indication that you are scum here.
BM

yes, i had noticed your overly aggressive attitude when faced with the slightest suspicion. Its one of the reasons i still find you very suspicious.

I think you're seeing it wrong. I'm simply being very aggressive and proactive this game.

As for metagaming me, i dont think anyone really can, as my playstyle hasnt really settled yet. plus if you want to see me as scum, you only have one game to go on, in which i was quicklynched so it isnt a great indication.

Exactly.

Anyway, i dont really see why you would take such an aggressive stance towards me, unless you had something to hide.

That is, for one, rather silly, and for two, says nothing about my alignment.

I havent even provided a decent case against you but you seem very defensive.

I think that sums up an important part of why you are suspicious.

"Mauling me till you get what you want"? what is it you want? me to stop drawing attention to your dubious behaviour. Sorry, but that aint gonna happen. By continuing to attack me on very little grounds, you simply draw attention to your own scummy behaviour.

You haven't even explained what my so-called dubious behaviour is, let alone draw attention to it.

[Battle Mage]

i responded to everything i think, i just dont have to break my points up into little chunks for people to understand them.
you werent particularly aggressive in 321 from what i remember.

@Kison-dont mean to be a hassle, but lets see some quotes eh?

Also, people, notice how BM choosese to respond to only one thing in the post.

[Battle Mage]

actually, if you had bothered to READ my comments, you would know that i responded to all that required response in that post. Obviously you feel you can get away with skimming everything, but thats just not gonna work if you wish to continue taking such an aggressive stance.
BM

yes, i had noticed your overly aggressive attitude when faced with the slightest suspicion. Its one of the reasons i still find you very suspicious.

I think you're seeing it wrong. I'm simply being very aggressive and proactive this game.

To this you responded.

As for metagaming me, i dont think anyone really can, as my playstyle hasnt really settled yet. plus if you want to see me as scum, you only have one game to go on, in which i was quicklynched so it isnt a great indication.

Exactly.

Anyway, i dont really see why you would take such an aggressive stance towards me, unless you had something to hide.

That is, for one, rather silly, and for two, says nothing about my alignment.

I havent even provided a decent case against you but you seem very defensive.

I think that sums up an important part of why you are suspicious.

"Mauling me till you get what you want"? what is it you want? me to stop drawing attention to your dubious behaviour. Sorry, but that aint gonna happen. By continuing to attack me on very little grounds, you simply draw attention to your own scummy behaviour.

You haven't even explained what my so-called dubious behaviour is, let alone draw attention to it.

To this you didn't.

Yes, you do have to break the post and quotes into little chunks, because that makes them a lot easier ot understand for others.

[Battle Mage]

i have responded to all points made in that post to a satisfactory extent. If Zindy wishes to ask a specific question, she may do so, but im not going to spend time repeating myself for no reason.
BM

No, Zindie is right. You only really responded to his first point. I think you should respond to the last part of his post.

[Battle Mage]

lol sorry. im really bad at guessing peoples gender over the internet.
Still doesnt change my opinion though

i have responded to all points made in that post to a satisfactory extent. If Zindy wishes to ask a specific question, she may do so, but im not going to spend time repeating myself for no reason.
BM

Zindares is a guy. Just wanted to point that out.

[Battle Mage]

thats a lie. unfortunately my analysis is gone aswell, and i frankly cba to redo it yet. The mod cannot restor pages i dont think. all i know is, you are almost certainly scum.
can we have a votecount?
BM

Last pages were Battle Mage and I arguing about his analysis of me.
In the last post I made I found him contradicting himself, claiming that my out of game referance to Panzer didn't mean anything while in his analysis he used it to try and prove my scumminess.
If it is possible I would like the Mod to restroe those pages...

[Battle Mage]

lol since you've been away ive been improving dude.
in Ready Salted Mafia i did a LoS, with good reasons, and here i managed a detailed analysis of TEOM and Kison which proved very useful.
although to an extent, i agree-alot of my scumhunting is still instinct.

Normally BM's analyzis suck and his reasons suck but he is often right about the scum. I believe in that newbie. With time he will learn to find and provide proper reasons behind his suspicions and he is gonna be a great scumhunter.
Luv ya BM.

[Battle Mage]

i think i should be voting for TEOM. Certainly he is the scummiest person here by far.

Vote: TEOM

[Battle Mage]

lol im not even sure why im dignifying you with a response. ive given my argument, and its been previously clarified, before it got lost in the crash. however, i cant resist hammering the nail in the coffin when i catch scum
A. You aren't really attacking me. i believe you were at some point, but not when i made my analysis.
B. There was a hell of alot more in depth analysis than that.
C. That never really came into it. its just something i felt the need to comment on. It certainly didnt HELP your image.

To cut a long story short, your playing down of the case against you wont work. if the Consuls are in any doubt about you being scum, i request that they read through your posts, and then say the same.

BM

And your reasoning is.....
A: I am attacking you so I must be scummy
B: My hypocritical analysis of Zindaras
C: My lying about your statement of Panzer
The above reasons are the only ones you have given and I do not agree with all of them.
To A, even though somebody is attacking you does not mean he is scum. A well balanced town player will tend to attack things he does not agree with.
To B, I believe Zindaras and I are using a different approach for handling you. I believe my approach has been more consistent and I have never changed from it. Zindaras, apart from a few gambits started to really attack you day 2.
To C, I disagree. You attacked me for my out of game reference and then you said something entirely differnet. Which one of your statements is your opinion?

[Battle Mage]

so you admit that the case i had written was enough to lynch you?
the fact that you are hanging so desperately onto the fact that the analysis is gone confirms my suspicions further.
I will rewrite it at some point. for now however i will oppose any execution not against TEOM. I think most players, including consuls, read my analysis of TEOM. Definitely the play for today.
BM

And in my opinion it didn't help your analysis either.
So as far as I can tell, point B and around there is where your reasoning is based on.
And after the crash you still haven't written down any reasons for why you thought I was scummy, you are just referring to your analysis that was and isn't anymore. From what is written here I highly doubt that any Consul would want to execute me.

[Battle Mage]

you already had your opportunity to defend yourself from the case, and those who were active will know that you failed tremendously.
try not to plead ignorance to the statements made against you, it only confirms your scumminess in my mind. i wont rewrite the case for the inactives who werent here, for their contribution isnt likely in any event.
BM

No, I won't admit that. If your case was good enough to lynch me I would be dead by now. However I cannot just say, your case is BS. That would be wrong. Although it may be my belief that there is little to know evidence in your case other people might disagree. So I put forth my defence, letter by letter. And because I can't defend myself so from shadow accusations I ask for your accusation. It is one thing to say TEOM is scum. That usually doesn't get you anywhere unless you explain it further. Another thing entirely is to build a balanced case up. You had a case but since it disappeared I would ask you to write it up again. Then I will be able to defend myself point by point and disprove your case.

[Battle Mage]

please explain.

BM, you have a case of superiority complex there.

[Battle Mage]

youve lost me now...
please can you explain what you mean in a little more depth? lol

Well, you seem to have got it in your head that you are the lord of all worlds.

[Battle Mage]

lol thats odd considering earlier on you were quick to assure me that you didnt think i was the execution for today. care to explain what has changed, and also why am i on the LoE and not TEOM?
BM

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help. I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see. Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

[Battle Mage]

its also highly concerning that you feel prepared to make an execution without any real judgements on the targets.
i would expect a player of your capacity at Mafia, to have the inclination to actually look closer than (as Raffles pointed out) 4 of the most active players. I can see some reasons behind Kison and Zindy, but i dont think either of them can be the lynch for today (and Zindy is tribune, so i suspect he would choose to protect himself)
As for me and Raffles, i cant see ANY logic there. Considering the amount of time most of us have spent analysing individual players, im a bit put out that you cannot do the same for us in your reign as leader...
And wth isnt TEOM on the list?
BM

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help. I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see. Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

livingod - 2(Raffles, Kison)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)
ubertimmy - 1(Twito)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(Battle Mage)

[Battle Mage]

im concerned because if such a list is of such little value, why did you bother posting it in the first place?
And i believe we have a deadline at some point which means a decision needs to be made soon...

Someone's a little overanxious about a preliminary LoE that was explained upfront to be subject to change and was rushed, hence the lack of reasoning list. Wonder what that means...

[Battle Mage]

that seems to be what you ARE intending to do, except in order to look more productive, you have made an LoE, but with no reasons to back it up, making it nearly useless.
BM

im concerned because if such a list is of such little value, why did you bother posting it in the first place?
And i believe we have a deadline at some point which means a decision needs to be made soon...

Someone's a little overanxious about a preliminary LoE that was explained upfront to be subject to change and was rushed, hence the lack of reasoning list. Wonder what that means...

Would you prefer that I just execute someone out of the blue without giving any advance warning?

That's what I thought.

[Battle Mage]

and my point is that you should have reasoned arguments, BEFORE you make a LoE. Otherwise it is basically useless, as has already been said.
@HH-did u get a chance to read TEOM? if not, please can you do so now?

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help.

I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see.

Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

You don't have very good reading comprehension, do you? I've already told you that I'm going to go through and give my reasoning before I execute anyone, yet you accuse me of doing something I outright stated I wouldn't.

[Battle Mage]

says the consul who just went for the easiest lynch of all?
im not the sort of person who would naturally defend Kison, but you are lynching him without bringing any points against him. dont get me wrong,

I

think he is a bit scummy, but you have thrown away your authority without a seconds though, basically to try and be friendly with HH. Today has opened my eyes about you MoS. I genuinely think you could be scum now.

BM

and my point is that you should have reasoned arguments, BEFORE you make a LoE. Otherwise it is basically useless, as has already been said.
@HH-did u get a chance to read TEOM? if not, please can you do so now?

Initial LoE: Battle Mage, Kison, Raffles, Zindaras

This is

VERY

subject to change, but unless our mod sees common sense, we're in a bit of a rush, so that's what I've got so far. I had them marked down in my notes as possible executions, but I didn't actually have my reasoning written down, and having lost a lot from the crash isn't going to help.

I'll try to see what I can do tomorrow, but we'll see.

Perhaps my illustrious Co-Consul would like to post his own LoE and/or comment on mine?

You don't have very good reading comprehension, do you? I've already told you that I'm going to go through and give my reasoning before I execute anyone, yet you accuse me of doing something I outright stated I wouldn't.

You are really getting on my nerves. Is there some sort of epidemic where you live that prevents you from being logical?

[Battle Mage]

MoS-please try not to be so condescending to me. Its not particularly nice, and rather ironic at this point
i dont think so much you have the authority to give someone a 'free pass'.
You are a consul for a day, not the entire game. Its even more concerning that Protown MoS would openly execute someone for 'bad playstyle'. Frankly MoS, im wearing a tad thin of you (no offence). As a consul i expected you to be far more proactive, with good reasons for everyone. I genuinely hoped, and expected, you to be hot on the trail of scum immediately. Instead, you seem to be looking for easy solutions to the days choice of victim. im not sure whether it is scumminess or just laziness on your part, but you havent been putting as much effort into this game as i would expect a consul to do. Dont get me wrong, you have provided more opinion than HH, but he hasnt posted an LoE with such little justification. even now i think your reasons are very weak on some people. the only person who i feel perhaps deserves a lynch is Kison, but the other 3 just seem like random choices on your part. The fact that, of your 4, HH made it quite clear that he would only kill 1 of them, and then you went along and EXECUTED THAT EXACT PERSON makes me feel like you are going along with him, in an attempt not to cause any conflict.
oh and btw-HH: You get a choice on who you execute aswell. if you are ok with a Kison execution, u have to say so in the same way MoS did.
Back to MoS:
I also find that your willingness to keep your opinions secret, is suspicious. what exactly are you hiding? assuming you dont have any investigation info etc, what harm could revealing your opinions actually do?
as Consul, i feel it is your duty to do so.
the fact is MoS, as a protown player, you will find that i speak my mind-whatever the situation.If you dont like it, NK me.
I find your actions today rather scummy. Its ok-rarely do people ever listen to me. Im just making a point that not everyone is oblivious to your mistakes.
Im not saying i would exactly oppose a Kison execution, as i find him relatively scummy, but i would certainly oppose a quick lynch, before you have responded to everyones questions, not least of which is:
Why the hell isnt TEOM on your LoE? there is a MUCH stronger case against him than the one on me. did you even read him?

BM

[Battle Mage]

hell MoS-if i can put up with you acting scummy in every game, im damn sure you can deal with a bit of newbieness.
i agree that your 'assignment' as you call it, was a good idea, but after that your contributions have been lacking. I know that time might have been an issue, but i have repeatedly asked you to comment on particular other players-in an attempt to do the town the same courtesy it has done to you.
oh and yes, I do consider Zindaras to be an easy lynch choice at this stage, considering some controversial comments he has made. early scummy behaviour and his successful day 1 have thrust him into the limelight. Unfortunately for you, you forgot he was a tribune eh?

another home truth MoS, good player as you may be, Mafia isnt about 'surviving till endgame'. Any old lurker can do that just by keeping out of the limelight. In truth, its significantly better to get killed erly on in the game, if you can make a valid contribution to the town beforehand. dont forget, you dont have to be alive to win as protown. I will probably die soon in this game, but as long as the townies outlive the scum, i can still call it a victory. Ill call things how i see them. If scum want to kill me for that, at least im taking the bullet for another player-perhaps one like yourself, who doesnt care so much about the result, but more about his own personal survival.

havent had time to read?
thats odd, coz as soon as you came under the slightest bit of suspicion, you have been back here defending yourself like mad. maybe if you spent less time splitting my posts up into chunks and then fail to answer them, you might be able to salvage enough time to RE-read TEOM. I'd just like confirmation that that is your stance.

BM

[Battle Mage]

i dont oppose the execution but

IGMEOY: MoS

[Battle Mage]

what are you on about?
and more importantly, why are you signing off using my name lol.
@MoS-there is no I in TEAM.

*Makes senseless acusation of zindaras and MoS*
*Pats self on back for it*
*Makes crappy joke*
*Messes up some little peice of Roman history*
*Pats self on back*
*Adds mindless info to make paragraph longer*

IGMEOY: MoS

-BM

hell MoS-if i can put up with you acting scummy in every game, im damn sure you can deal with a bit of newbieness.
i agree that your 'assignment' as you call it, was a good idea, but after that your contributions have been lacking. I know that time might have been an issue, but i have repeatedly asked you to comment on particular other players-in an attempt to do the town the same courtesy it has done to you.
oh and yes, I do consider Zindaras to be an easy lynch choice at this stage, considering some controversial comments he has made. early scummy behaviour and his successful day 1 have thrust him into the limelight. Unfortunately for you, you forgot he was a tribune eh?

another home truth MoS, good player as you may be, Mafia isnt about 'surviving till endgame'. Any old lurker can do that just by keeping out of the limelight. In truth, its significantly better to get killed erly on in the game, if you can make a valid contribution to the town beforehand. dont forget, you dont have to be alive to win as protown. I will probably die soon in this game, but as long as the townies outlive the scum, i can still call it a victory. Ill call things how i see them. If scum want to kill me for that, at least im taking the bullet for another player-perhaps one like yourself, who doesnt care so much about the result, but more about his own personal survival.

Ah, but if I can survive until endgame, I have the chance to win the game for the town. Too many times have I been killed early on and had the town fail, despite significant contributions on my part, including pointing out multiple scum for them before my death (hence the reason for my demise). The reason I would like to live until endgame is not about personal survival, it's about wanting the town to actually win. I don't trust our endgame to players like yourself, who constantly make moves that will either get them lynched or just simply get another townie lynched, neither of which help us find the scum.

havent had time to read?
thats odd, coz as soon as you came under the slightest bit of suspicion, you have been back here defending yourself like mad. maybe if you spent less time splitting my posts up into chunks and then fail to answer them, you might be able to salvage enough time to RE-read TEOM. I'd just like confirmation that that is your stance.

BM

If you bothered to read the V/LA thread, I was gone for Friday/Saturday/Sunday, and when I came back on Monday I started posting again and being active. However, given the fact that I am currently engaged in several heated discussions in many mafia games, those take far more precedence over indulging you by rereading someone who I can't do anything about until tomorrow anyways, since I've already found a scum for today.

[Battle Mage]

hmm interesting kills. Primate, by the looks of it, was mafia, meaning that the Elephant is unaffiliated with the mafia (coz he killed their leader). not a bad night really, although its a shame to lose HH, who was pretty strongly protown. Im also curious as to why, while both groups killed previous consuls, MoS-who seems to be a stronger player, survived. Strikes me as a little odd that neither anti-town force killed him. I think MoS is looking very scummy at this point.
Of course, hes not helping himself with his support of, even more scummy TEOM. At this point, i find it hard to believe that scum-MoS would want to link himself to his scumbuddy, and so i dont think they are BOTH scum, but i am CERTAIN, one of them is. Neither should be elected as Tribune. On the other hand, I think Yos should be given a shot at it.

Vote for Tribune: Yosarian2

[Battle Mage]

You still have the analysis of me to do. Especially look for the Primate TEOM connections which BM was going on about yesterday, they Definately need looking into...

Thats a good point.

FoS: TEOM

As for who should be today's Tribune, I am not sure about. I would have suggested Shanba but he is already Consul.

sucking up to the consul.

Finally, I am taking the National Tests next week, starting Wednesday 2. May. I might not have that much time on during that time as they are rather important.

lurking in plain sight?
BM

[Battle Mage]

ill analyse him again later. currently we are trying to find a protown player to act as a tribune. care to help, or do you intend to keep your vote on TEOM?

Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain how TEOM is scum. I even went back and reread his posts, just like I said I would.

[Battle Mage]

go on then, give your reasons for such a decision.

@Raffles-he only hates me coz i always know when he is scum.

Actually, BM, I would've also elected Shanba Tribune if he wasn't consul. I imagine that's why he WAS made consul. You're just grasping at straws, here. Try again, please.

[Battle Mage]

A. I agree here, although your logic is dodgy.
B. Are you serious? last night the elephant did us a big favour. im not expecting it to be like that every night, but i wonder why you pick up on the 2nd kill today, rather than yesterday. Upset that your scumbuddy died?
C. probably but im not entirely sure.
D. WHAT?? You want a mass claim at this stage? on the assumption that most of us will be townies, how the hell do you expect us to weed out the scum with counter claims?
E. You could try getting them replaced...
F. I wouldnt agree with that. if you are town, you would feel happier knowing that a townie was in power, than an unknown.
G. I know that was what you wanted, but unfortunately its not hard to see through it.

Anyways, we have a lot to do, so here are a few points.
A: BM and Zindaras are not scum together. I am more then 90% about that. With 2 scum as Consuls, they would sacrifice BM for sure instead of somebody else.
B: We need to kill the Elephant quickly. I think we only have 2 scum left, maybe 3. It is imperative that we get the Elephant as soon as we can. That second kill will ruin us if left unchecked.
C: Is this like a Kingmaker game, where if the Mafia kill all the Citizens they win? I am not sure on that point.
D: Is a massclaim proper at this stage? I am wondering if it is, on the downside it will show Townies to the Mafia but we can catch the scum in false claims.
E: The lurkers will need to talk or they will die. Especially Cephrir, who Primate was defending.
F: Voting oneself for Tribune is bad, so a secure choice is the proper way to go. The problem is that there are not really any left. So I will refrain from voting at this satge unless our lurkers speak more.
G: The only reason I would post about the National Tests being where they are is so that I

wouldn't

be accused of lurking...
That is all for the moment

Tribunal Vote Count

TheEyeOfMordor - 1(Mastermind of Sin)
Yosarian2 - 1(Battle Mage)

[Battle Mage]

thats really really weak.
and your sarcasm fails, because i DO provide reasons when i say someone is scum.
You seriously gotta get over your general problem with me, as it seems to be clouding your judgement in games. I cant believe you are scum in ALL of them lol.

go on then, give your reasons for such a decision.

@Raffles-he only hates me coz i always know when he is scum.

Actually, BM, I would've also elected Shanba Tribune if he wasn't consul. I imagine that's why he WAS made consul. You're just grasping at straws, here. Try again, please.

I feel no reason to point out why Shanba looks protown. You could just read his posts, you know. [/BM]

[Battle Mage]

have i missed something here?
2 scumgroups?
what are you on about? are you suggesting that we have a missing kill?

A. I agree here, although your logic is dodgy.
B. Are you serious? last night the elephant did us a big favour. im not expecting it to be like that every night, but i wonder why you pick up on the 2nd kill today, rather than yesterday. Upset that your scumbuddy died?
C. probably but im not entirely sure.
D. WHAT?? You want a mass claim at this stage? on the assumption that most of us will be townies, how the hell do you expect us to weed out the scum with counter claims?
E. You could try getting them replaced...
F. I wouldnt agree with that. if you are town, you would feel happier knowing that a townie was in power, than an unknown.
G. I know that was what you wanted, but unfortunately its not hard to see through it.

Clearly he picked up on the second kill today because we have two dead Carthiginians, and no dead scum from the other group. This means that we need to start killing the other group before we lose too many more protown players.

[Battle Mage]

B. True enough, but your timing seems odd.
D. Obviously they will claim townie now you have brought this to everyones attention.
E. As i said, how about REPLACING THEM. That will sure as hell get somthing out of them, rather than lynching them for the hell of it.

[Battle Mage]

for tribune right? lol

[Battle Mage]

WOAH.

HOS: Occult

Also, MoS, can you do me a favour and stop spending all your efforts insulting me. I believe ive said previously that your help would be appreciated much more if it was used to help contribute to the actual game.
BM

First,

Vote TEOM

he seems to be the most trustworthy IMO.
Secondly, BM you don't have to make twenty posts a day. If you spent more time thinking about a solid agrument and less time trying to distract the conversation, you might get better results.

[Battle Mage]

yeh Raffles for Tribune is good. Yosarian should be the 2nd choice though

[Battle Mage]

Yos seems like an open-minded, intelligent, protown player. Frankly we need decent tribunes to win this game...
besides, his predecessors not saying much is a good reason to give him a chance to make a contribution

yeh Raffles for Tribune is good. Yosarian should be the 2nd choice though

Why? Yos has posted a good amount but TJM and cheese fan don't have many posts between them and shouldn't be voted for tribune IMO.

[Battle Mage]

does this include me?

I want

everyone

to give their opinions on Battle Mage, Cephirir and MoS.

Battle Mage-1 I KNOW im town!
MoS-7 Im not positive by any means, but i have a feeling that he could be scum. His behaviour has been unhelpful at the best of times. One of the main suspects at this point.
Cephrir-6 I wasnt sure the case on him, so i reread him. His logic has been poor, and his time in the game has been of surprising little use. His only real commitment was to agree to a Kison lynch. Could well be scum, but not the best candidate for today i dont think.

BM

*also Raffles, i dont understand how your numbers are meant to be scaled?

[Battle Mage]

Ah ok. just wondered why you listed anti-town as so different to scum.

What part of the numbering scale do you not understand? Gradation from 1 being don't agree at all to the statement, to 9 being totally agreeing with the statement.

[Battle Mage]

im familiar with the latter, not the former. However i dont see the relevance of that. The fact is, whilst scum is not the same as anti-town, i find it hard to understand why you concieve them to be so DRAMATICALLY different in this game, when, as far as we are aware, there is only 1 person who fits anti-town, and not scum.
BM

Scum => anti-town

Anti-town =/= Scum

(For those who don't do maths, => means "implies")

Makes me wonder why you are not familiar with these equations, BM.

[Battle Mage]

if its ok, can all active players give their comments on TEOM aswell, if they havent already?
i'd be interested to get peoples opinions down at this point.
BM

[Battle Mage]

i agree that the case for Zindy being the elephant is strong, but i dont want to lynch based on that alone. If we are only going to lynch someone based on an inkling they might be an SK, id frankly much rather kill more certain scum.
BM

[Battle Mage]

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else. His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.
Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.
To conclude, you can spout crap about my 'poor logic', but the fact is, you are as guilty of that as i am. The only difference is, my crap logic is made in an attempt to contribute to the town, whereas your only intention seems to be personal survival and vendettas.

Oh and btw, there was alot more along those lines in MoS's post, but i frankly dont have the inclination to pick the rest apart in the same fashion.

BM

[Battle Mage]

by stating this, you declare your willingness to lynch me. granted i may not be your first choice, but the fact remains that you will approve a BM-lynch given the opportunity, for no reason other than that i am annoying.
Also, i dont think you are scum in every game. So far, only this game and RFM (in which you WERE scum). of the 5/6 games im with you in, thats not bad atall.
FYI, you wouldnt be my favourite choice for execution today. I think TEOM, or even Cephrir are safer bets than you, however i cant say i dont find you scummy, and i will be keeping an eye on you.
BM

As i read through the last few posts, just wanted to pick this out:

BM's poor logic is more than enough reason to execute him, to be honest, in any game. If he's scum, he does a damn good job of distracting and disorienting the town, and if he's protown, then he does a horrible job of helping the town get anywhere useful, and does the scum's work for them. As a result, no scum would ever want to kill him, so we have to lynch him if we're ever going to have peace of mind and be able to concentrate on actually finding scum. That's not to mention the fact that he COULD very well be scum.

The irony here, as always with MoS, is hilarious. Note that, whilst criticising my poor logic, he simultaneously declares that he will lynch me, based on the fact that i MIGHT be scum. He doesnt even say im more likely than anyone else.

Way to twist my words, BM. I said that your poor logic is

enough

to lynch you, not that I wanted you lynched right now, i.e. there is good reasoning for you to be killed, whether or not you are the top suspect. Had you paid attention to my posts, you would know that I rated Cephrir as more likely scum than yourself, so you're NOT the one I want to lynch today.

His suspicions seem to be solely based on the fact that i suspect him to be scum, and are thus OMGUS. Make a note, all players who think that experience makes for a better player. MoS, you really need to think about the basics of Mafia before you start influencing the gameplay of others.

This coming from the person who thinks I'm scum in just about every game and never stopped to wonder how the hell I could be scum THAT often.

Also, you should get your facts straight first. I am far more often NKed than lynched.[/quote[

Yes, vigs are an amazing invention, aren't they?

[Battle Mage]

note that my affiliation in both those games is unknown, thus such analyses cannot be made accurately. note that in neither did i ever make a strong case against you. I would go into more detail, but the last time i did that, i got warned for talking about games currently in progress.
note also that YOUR affiliation in those games is not necessarily known to me either.

So are you denying that you repeatedly said that I should be executed in Kingmaker and told your replacement to get me killed, or that you, until quite recently, were heavily advocating lynching me in Mafia vs. Wolves? Not to mention that you were not advocating that I was scum in RFM until you came up with a guilty investigation on me. I don't know your alignment in either game, so I won't speculate on it (plus, we can't do that anyways), but regardless of alignment, it still stands that you have repeatedly thought I was scum in most of the games I'm in with you.

[Battle Mage]

lol what do you mean?
YOU are the second tribune

Will you stop discussing who has the bigger penis and get back to the task at hand, finding second tribune.

[Battle Mage]

Yos.

Have I missed something? Who's the first? TEOM got unvoted.

[Battle Mage]

yes i did read the post, and saw your comment, but at the end i had the displeasure of reading:

it still stands that you have repeatedly thought I was scum in most of the games I'm in with you.

[/quote]
Obviously you hadnt been paying attention to your OWN comments, so i felt the inclination to reiterate them for you.
Even NOW you are backtracking on your comments, so ill explain it again for you. MY ALIGNMENT IN THOSE GAMES IS

NOT

IRRELEVANT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE DRAWN A CONCLUSION FROM THEM THAT IS BASED UPON AN ASSUMPTION OF WHAT THEY WERE.

In your favour, i DO often find you scummy, however i have now learnt to look further than that with you. This game is your scummiest i have played with you, and as such i stand by my observations. You will notice that in other games, my view has changed in accordance with my adaption towards your behaviour.
Regardless, its not my decision anyway. If my case is so bad, you wont be executed. its as simple as that. However, from what people have been saying, many others see you as potential scum in this game-not just me.
Good luck persuading the people who count.
BM

[Battle Mage]

fyi, consistency is not a town-tell. Its a stubborn-tell. Trust me-i do it enough.
I can see your point about excuses for scummy behaviour 'because thats just BM' as being stupid, however its equally as stupid as not using knowledge about my play ATALL.

[Battle Mage]

Tends

to be?
frankly thats not my opinion-but regardless, it is only your

opinion

.
any scum with an iq above 100 will try and be consistent to look good in the eyes of the down-in part based on logic such as that you have given. considering the experience of most players in this game, i dont think consistency can be used as a scumtell accurately.

You may have taken your knowledge of my play into account, but you havent reflected this in your stalwart attacks upon me.

fyi, consistency is not a town-tell. Its a stubborn-tell. Trust me-i do it enough.

You are incorrect. Scum tends to be more opportunistic.

I can see your point about excuses for scummy behaviour 'because thats just BM' as being stupid, however its equally as stupid as not using knowledge about my play ATALL.

You can hardly say I haven't used knowledge about your play at all. I have taken into account the fact that you tend to play oddly.

[Battle Mage]

i like that LoE Shanba

Vote: TEOM

as the preferably execution today however.
BM

[Battle Mage]

who are you talking about now?
not me i hope?
or do

yo

u mean yourself?

Shanba, you either need (new) glasses or you're outright trying to avoid the most blindingly obvious candidate ever.

[Battle Mage]

either of

yo

u care to give a reason?

[Battle Mage]

lol i had noticed that you had grammar-checked my post.

I must ask you to cease these crimes against humanity, Battle Mage. I will not tolerate this kind of language.

[Battle Mage]

ah. allow me to pick the flaws in this again

Me voting myself for tribune was understandable, for reasons already outlined by other players.
I highly doubt that N9V scum would be so obvious as to vote his buddy for tribune. be realistic.
is raffles proven scum? i dont think so, thus your argument is immensely flawed...

basically, the reason you think i am scum, is because:
1. I wasnt sure who to vote for tribune on Day 1.
2. I was acting like a noob early on in the game.
3. You think Raffles is scum.

Nice going Poirot...

BM

Well I am thinking BM is the way to go today I don't like how he tried to push himself as a tribune when Zindie made that joke. He seemed very defensive.

you both seem pretty eratic in your haste to lynch someone without evidence. You seem to have a close relationship, and certainly are both slightly tipsy on the power.
actually, i will Unvote, Vote: Raffles for Tribune
BM

Quite eratic voting for tribune here.

well, you werent attacking me. In Mafia, its a rare occassion worth celebrating.

Very bad resoning (maybe voting for a scummate)

cheers dude. I highly doubt the reason is cop related, as if a cop had visited me, they would have spotted that i was protown.
Raffles, mind if we switch over?
Unvote, Vote Battle Mage for Tribune

BM, here sees that the move to get his scum mate on the tribune isn't working, but when NV9 votes for him he switches pretty fast. (Note NV9 was scum)

seeing as my wagon lost steam...

Unvote, Vote: Raffles

Ah back to scummate raffles now his wagon is over.

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

Tries to put suspision on Panzer.

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.
The idea of a tribune is someone to keep the balance between the consuls and the ordinary people. Personally i would rather put my faith in someone who was a little less 'under the thumb' as they say.
i do not have the time to go through all 85 of your games, and i do not see the relevance. I agree that you are almost certainly an EXPERIENCED player, but whether or not you are a good one remains to be seen. Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

BM

Here he tries to push suspision on the consuls and a popular choice for tribune (suspision of the consuls was good)

everyone knows that i am the easiest Day 1 lynch on the entire site, because very few people like me, and even less consider me of value to the town. I am now very suspicious of those who use this tactic of "lets get BM off early. Even when he comes up town, no1 will miss him".
It is especially scummy when young players do it.
BM

Ah one of those pity the Noob statements classic scum.

actually, im not sure. Some people have said that they think i look scummy, but quite frankly, i get that in all my games. I wouldnt say it was anything out of the ordinary. I maintain that those who campaign for me the hardest are probably scum themselves.

Again with the I'm always scummy defence
BM is the best decision today

Vote:BM

^There.

[Battle Mage]

ROFLMAO.
TEOM, i find that is the worst EVER case to execute someone. In it, you actuallly admit that i am not scummy, and in fact you feel certain that i am protown. Your choice of execution seems to be solely on the basis of your obvious dislike for me, which is ridiculous. You also appear to seek to follow popular opinion, which is "kill BM. He isn

'

t scum, but it'll be great fun to see him die".
Its also hilariously ironic that someone like you criticises my play as town, and then DELIBERATELY VOTES FOR SOMEBODY THEY THINK IS TOWN.
I'll be perfectly honest-if my endgame play is weak, yours is going to be absolute **** if you continue with that sort of logic.
Here is a suggestion which might improve your gameplay here.
How about telling us who you DO think is scum, and then voting for them?
it

'

s the whole purpose of mafia, so i figure it isn

'

t too much to ask.
as for you putting forth a good defence, i don

'

t recall that. You will have to reference me to it.
In the meantime, i won

'

t be making a case for my defence, when nobody has provided a single reason in an attack...
Oh and btw, i don

'

t think my play has been all that bad. I have helped uncover 2 likely scumbuddies. If the rest of the town doesn

'

t choose to execute them, that

'

s their call.
BM

[Battle Mage]

i recognise that many points have been made, but none of them have been of enough substance to warrant any more than an FoS.
If you have any reason for me to be executed, other than the rubbish that Rand has come up with, id be intrigued to hear it. in the meantime, cut the role-fishing out.
BM

In the meantime, i won't be making a case for my defence, when nobody has provided a single reason in an attack...

There are plenty of reasons to execute you throughout this thread. A lot of points have been made against you, and you know it. Here's a question for you: Why should you NOT be executed? The only excuse you have is 'I always play this way', and while that may be true, it doesn't make you look any more protown. Please actually answer that question BTW.

Oh and btw, i don't think my play has been all that bad. I have helped uncover 2 likely scumbuddies. If the rest of the town doesn't choose to execute them, that's their call.

Please stop assuming you are always right. It's annoying.

[Battle Mage]

if you have defended yourself, ANYWHERE in the game, please reference me to it.
I feel that your logic is severely flawed, but i admit that your opinion is consistent, and i cant say that it alone is scummy. I just think its nonsensical.
If you really have such little faith in your own abilities, you wouldnt bother playing mafia in the first place.
as for me misrepresenting you, you made it clear several times in your post, that you thought (or even KNEW) i was town. dont deny it when it is written on the previous page. ill quote it for you if you want.
BM

I think I defended myself very well Day 2 for instance. If you disagree explain why.
And I have deliberately voted for myself as Town for instance, if I feel that my position is weak and that my living only helps the scum. That is my feeling about you. The longer you survive the better it is for the scum.
My endgame play isn't really all that tested as Town, the only Town endgame I have been in was Ben and Jerry's and I had a terrible role there. All of my other endgames I have been scum. But I definately feel that I trust my endgame play more then I do yours. I must assume that you disagree...
+ I am not certain that you are protown, as you put it. That is misrepresentating me.

[Battle Mage]

Cephrir has lurked for alot of this game-especially around the time of yesterdays execution. I wouldnt mind a Cephrir-execution at this stage, though i feel there are better choices.
BM

[Battle Mage]

well id like to see TEOM, MoS, and Cephrir on a LoE. either of those 3 would be good executions today. They are listed here in the order i would like to see them killed.
BM

[Battle Mage]

im not sure your choices make sense. I mean, you have said i was scum since the start of Day 1. if you were town, you would have killed me by now. Im not believing your claim atm, though if Zindy says that the role name makes sense, maybe it is true...

[Battle Mage]

yes, in light of how POSITIVE he has been that i was scum. i could understand not NKing if you only had an inkling, but he has been set on a BM lynch since the start, hence i am struggling to buy his claim...

@TEOM-how the heck can he prove his claim?

im not sure your choices make sense. I mean, you have said i was scum since the start of Day 1. if you were town, you would have killed me by now. Im not believing your claim atm, though if Zindy says that the role name makes sense, maybe it is true...

Rofl, so...staying his hand to give you a chance to prove yourself makes him scum?

[Battle Mage]

Zindy-is the flavour CLOSE to realistic?
i mean, if this game was modded by say, me (someone who isnt an expert on this topic), would you believe that the flavour was close enough to be true?
also, Cephrir-how much do you know about this period in history?

[Battle Mage]

i still want Zindy to answer my question, but i do feel that Cephrir is probably scum.

Vote: Cephrir

[Battle Mage]

are you really that dumb?
there are so many flaws in that, its hilarious.
1. the mafia or SK might choose not to kill, in which case we lynch you tomoz anyway, after you have killed a potential protown player, and made our job infinitely harder.
2. The mafia or SK might be blocked, or their target protected.
3. You might target the same person as either the Mafia or SK.
4. How would we know that the kill wasnt by the Mafia-under your orders?

my vote stands, and i agree with Zindy, that MoS's defence of Cephrir is scummy.

BM

Hi. I have an easily confirmable role and there's absolutely no reason to execute me now when I can quite possibly confirm my role by killing someone. If there isn't a third kill tomorrow then execute me.

[Battle Mage]

according to you, that method hadnt worked so far, so who is to say it wont fail again. You forget that most games with a RB, also have a Doc, so you could still be unable to make the kill.

@Zindy-i wouldnt say that, but in comparison to an increasing number of players, you are looking protown.

BM

Obviously, it'll probably turn up as a different kill method, so 2all of your points are completely invalid. And the town RBer is dead, so I find it unlikely that I'll be roleblocked, and if I am and then I'm executed tomorrow and turn up town, then we know there's a mafia roleblocker.

[Battle Mage]

i reccommend all players read the posts by Cephrir at the end of Day 1. There is nothing to indicate that he suspected anyone other than me-who he went after with all his enthusiasm. I see no reason to suspect that Cephrir-Vig would kill anyone other than me, and as he claims to have killed TS (who was killed by the scum) we know this is not the case.
Is it a coincidence that he claimed to have killed the same guy as the scum, in order to fit in with the rest of the play?
i seriously doubt it.

Confirm Vote: Cephrir

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Battle Mage - 2(Occult, TheEyeOfMordor)
Cephrir - 1(Battle Mage)

[Battle Mage]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure BMscum just realized he is a pretty likely target for me if I make it to tonight.

actually i hadnt considered that, but its a good point all the same. Even as protown, it would be detrimental for you to be allowed to survive another night.

[Battle Mage]

defence of scum duely noted.

Dude, if he's willing to kill battlemage for us, perhaps we can let Cephrir live another night.

Seriously, I'm not sure which one of the two is scummier at this point. I'm still not buying Cephrir's claim of his actions, but eh, BM is just pushing all my wrong buttons.

[Battle Mage]

hmm isnt Yos a Tribune?
in which case his defence of Cephrir counts for something, as theoretically he could defend Cephrir for the entire day, and we would learn nothing about either of them until tomorrow.
BM

[Battle Mage]

wow. crap. i genuinely dont know what to say. the 2 people i was most confident about being scum, are not. i seriously need to read through this again...
BM

[Battle Mage]

so am i actually. i think my play has been shoddy enough to warrant an execution, but the fact remains that lynching me would only harm the town, thus i must work hard to find some real scum.

[Battle Mage]

i think the scum do too. I cant see any why the scum would kill TEOM, other than to set me up...
BM

The Consulmaker really wants BM gone doesn't he?

Any concrete reasons I'm scum BM?

[Battle Mage]

we're voting for tribunes right?
well, id like MoS and Shanba as tribunes today.
I reckon Shanba will do what is best for the town, and MoS, because seeing as i am a popular candidate today, if MoS is town, and does not use his opportunity to save me, then i can laugh at the end.
no offence MoS. :p

Vote: MoS

[Battle Mage]

he may have been lying. reading back, the Africanus Ma

i

or sounds like an elephantine role.
i wouldnt blame him for lying, seeing as most of us thought the elephant was an SK.

[Battle Mage]

actually, Shanba is right. you are most certainly following public opinion by targetting me, as you know damn well that most players here dislike me/find me scummy. It rarely takes a lot of convincing to get BM lynched, and even when i come up town, you will still be regarded as helpful to the town

FoS Yos

Every opinion you've given seems to be following the crowd and you've been a bit complacent and wishy-washy for my tastes.

:eyebrow:

Every opinion I've given is following the crowd? Really?

My main opinion today is that Battle Mage is scum, and that's not "following the crowd". that's a direct result of the points I made yesterday. Other arguments I've made (like arguing since yesterday that Zinderas is probably not mafia, like my suspicions of MOS early yesrtday) were also certanly not "following the crowd", they were all way ahead of the curve, opinions I stated before anyone else did.

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Shanba

[Battle Mage]

hmm, i had guessed that any genuine suspicion you might have would be concerned with that game. still, to clarify, any connection between those two games is total BS. i was scum there, im not here. however, i can sort of see where your suspicions are coming from now.
BM

Anyway, now that the other game is over, I can say this...

One of the reasons i really was suspicious of Battlemage's attack at the end of the day yesterday was that his play here felt to me just like his play over in Mutually Assured Distruction, a game I just modded, when Battlemage was (very sucessfull) scum. He did just that kind of attack over and over again in MAD mafia.

[Battle Mage]

Wow, do I even need to point out how useless that argument of BM's was?

nope, it was mostly WIFOM. But i just felt the need to make the point.
still this might help you MoS:

When you find me intensely scummy and attack me consistently, im probably town.

When you find me less scummy than usual and ignore me for most of the game, im probably scum.

Im not saying you're a poor scum-hunter, but i will say that if you intend to ever read my alignement correctly, you need to adjust your scumdar.

[Battle Mage]

a bit of advice MoS. Considering how no tribune so far in this game has actually done their job to any extent, how do you suppose it is

I

who cannot be trusted with the position?

1. Zindaras - I've already explained why I don't want him to be tribune
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan)) - I would trust Yos2 as a tribune
5. ubertimmy - lurker
7. Rand Althor - lurker
8. Twito - lurker
13. Battle Mage - can't be trusted with the position
14. Mastermind of Sin - I won't nominate myself
15. Shanba(replacing Panzerjager) - Should definitely be a tribune, most protown person in the game
18. Raffles - Could perhaps be a tribune, but is a Consul right now
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - Consul

So I would suggest Shanba (who I am already voting, that should have been obvious) and Yosarian2 as the Tribunes for today.

[Battle Mage]

thats really not very helpful. are you 2 scum?

a bit of advice MoS. Considering how no tribune so far in this game has actually done their job to any extent, how do you suppose it is

I

who cannot be trusted with the position?

@BM, I wouldn't trust you with the tribune position even if there wasn't anybody playing.

QFT

<3 Occult

[Battle Mage]

*puts his head in the noose*

[Battle Mage]

np. if im going to be killed, might aswell make it quick. :p

[Battle Mage]

yeh the problem we have now, is lack of candidates. the only executions i can find ANY real reason for (and are viable) today, are MoS and Yosarian.

1. Zindaras - Tribune
4. Yosarian2(replacing TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan))
5. ubertimmy - Being Replaced
7. Rand Althor - He's in the game? Oh yeah. I think he's town.
8. Twito - Inactive, still not back into the game yet
13. Battle Mage - BM
15. Shanba(replacing Panzerjager) - Tribune
18. Raffles - Consul
20. Occult(replacing livingod) - Consul

This is bad. I don't really know who to suggest. My tentative suggestions for execution would be Yos2 or Battle Mage. For Yos2, I just have an ugly feeling that he's playing us, but it's completely gut :/. For BM, he's scummy, but iunno. He's my second choice on a bad list of possible executions.

[Battle Mage]

well Yos has spent the last day and a bit chasing shadows. he's playing aggressively, which i have known him to do as scum. If he was town, id expect him to be far more perceptive. I mean Yos, you witnessed my play as scum first hand in MAD Mafia. im sure you will remember that my play was fairly cagey, and i wasnt atall aggressive. You also saw me as town, in Hell on Earth, in which i spent 2 days trying my damn hardest to get you (scum) lynched. So, please explain why you feel i am scum here, because i dont get it.

MoS has decided to take a laid back approach to the game, which i also find odd from him. his play earlier on was scummy, and the fact that he hasnt been killed, or been particularly proactive, are indications that something is wrong.

[Battle Mage]

well Yos has spent the last day and a bit chasing shadows. he's playing aggressively, which i have known him to do as scum. If he was town, id expect him to be far more perceptive. I mean Yos, you witnessed my play as scum first hand in MAD Mafia. im sure you will remember that my play was fairly cagey, and i wasnt atall aggressive. You also saw me as town, in Hell on Earth, in which i spent 2 days trying my damn hardest to get you (scum) lynched. So, please explain why you feel i am scum here, because i dont get it.
.

WIFOM

Occult, like it or not, thats his reason for suspecting me. Id like an explanation.

[Battle Mage]

i already have MoS. see Kelly Chen's Hell on Earth Mafia for aggressive-scum Yos. im not sure about Yos as town, but im sure he can direct you to something, if he wishes to prove his innocence.

fyi-i wasnt under the impression that YOU were attacking me. rather, i suggested that you could be a scum candidate DAYS ago, and since you have been attacking me.

@Yos-true, but i think you will find i WAS leading the case against Cephrir. i admit i was prehaps a little over-confident in him coming up scum.
still, thats a pretty sound explanation.

Quote(post 1096) removed to allow for Vote County goodness.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

No votes yet.

[Battle Mage]

Yos: 1, BM: 0

BM, do you have a counter-argument to the example of Lights Out II? Can you argue logically that Yos did

not

play aggressively in that game?

this seems awful like a setup. until i have read the entirety of Lights Out 2 (which conveniently i did not play, and is an awesomely long game) Yos's comments mean very little.
I reccommend that you too MoS, read Light Out 2, and comment on whether you feel Yos is telling the truth. the fact you have not done so ALREADY is odd...

Town 1 - 0 MoS

[Battle Mage]

no MoS, but as a town-player it is your responsibility to make your mind up about things for yourself. The fact that you obviously have no inclination to find out whether Yos or I am scum or not, implies that you already know, and thus, are scum.

[Battle Mage]

so you have gone and read the entirety of Lights Out 2 i assume?
please tell us your thoughts.

[Battle Mage]

lies.

1. If you are town, you want to find out whether people are scum right?
so, why the hell would you be placing all your scumhunting on the shoulders of someone else, who's affiliation is uncertain. If you really cared about winning at this game, you would bother to make your own judgements, rather than sitting back and letting the game work itself out.
Just for this:

FOS: MoS

2. You keep saying that my entire argument against Yos is based on the fact that his behaviour here matches that of him in another game as scum. Its not. repeating lies doesnt make them any more believable.

BM

Hardly. I don't need to read LO2 to find out if you are scum. You, however, do, because you are basing your argument against Yos on the fact that he behaved aggressively in another game, and was scum. This argument is only valid if you can prove that he does NOT play aggressively as town, so when Yos provided a counter-example, it is up to you to prove him wrong.

I, on the other hand, am not attacking Yos on the basis that his play in this game compares to his play in other games, so it is not necessary for me to read said games.

Although nice try moving responsibility off of yourself again. This is becoming a pattern. Can't handle a little questioning? I find it hard to believe that you are protown when you can't even back up your own attacks with proof that the "facts" you have presented are actually true.

[Battle Mage]

no shit Sherlock. However, you forgot 1 thing. I'm also trying to find out who is scum. as one of my main suspects, you havent done anything of late to convince me that you are genuine town. Your attitude strikes me as scum trying to stay neutral, and waying up the options. i mean, you have taken Yos's word about LO2 as gold, when in fact a half-decent protown player would have looked for themselves. You have even admitted that you have no intention of doing so.

im frankly amazed that you havent even voted for me yet. In other games it takes alot less for you to do so. Maybe you are town who has actually noticed that im not scum, or perhaps you are scum who is trying to promote a BM execution, without actually committing to a vote.

i will review the case on Yos later.

BM

lies.

1. If you are town, you want to find out whether people are scum right?
so, why the hell would you be placing all your scumhunting on the shoulders of someone else, who's affiliation is uncertain. If you really cared about winning at this game, you would bother to make your own judgements, rather than sitting back and letting the game work itself out.
Just for this:

FOS: MoS

I'm not placing my scumhunting on anyone else's shoulders, but you apparently don't understand that, or at least are pretending not to. I am scumhunting by seeing your (and others') reactions to the questions I ask. What I'm doing is forcing you to support your own attacks on other people, something you are very forcefully trying to avoid doing by changing the subject back to me every time I bring it up. Well, it's not going to work. You *still* need to explain why your argument against Yos is correct, or at least admit that you were wrong about him being scum, if that is the case. You cannot both believe you are right and be unable to explain why he's scum at the same time, unless you are playing by gut, and you haven't said you are, so that's not an option here.

[Battle Mage]

lol you're jumping at shadows MoS. ive already said (twice) that im intending to follow up the lead on Yos. Either you arent reading, or you are trying to make me look suspicious on no grounds.

@Shanba-yes i am aware that its a long game-i offered to replace into it at 1 point. lol
just interesting that MoS wont practice what he preaches.

Where did I say that Yos's word about LO2 is gold? I didn't say I believed he was right, I asked for you to prove him wrong. Once again, your refusal to address this subject speaks for you. You can't prove him wrong, can you?

What case is there to review against Yos? You're the one who provided the case against him, and you haven't been willing to support your own case so far...

[Battle Mage]

no, i wouldnt do that to you Sarcastro

[Battle Mage]

The fact that he has nothing else to say other than push the execution of the scummy-by-popular opinion BM sorta says something about him, wouldn't you think?

i could say the same of Occult at this point.

[Battle Mage]

hmm, ive been having a look at Yos's posts over LO2 Mafia. a couple seem a bit aggressive, but generally his tone appears nothing like it is here. I dont think that game really counts as evidence that he plays aggressively as town too.

[Battle Mage]

thats a lie. im with you in several games, in which you are one of the more active players.

[Battle Mage]

hmm much as i hate to resist OMGUS voting, i wouldnt say that Rand is the best choice for today.

[Battle Mage]

hmm much as i hate to resist OMGUS voting, i wouldnt say that Rand is the best choice for today.

Please Explain.

i just dont recall him being as scummy as say, MoS.

[Battle Mage]

hmm, is there a reason why you want to stay in this game, and not others?
just a thought...

[Battle Mage]

hmm much as i hate to resist OMGUS voting, i wouldnt say that Rand is the best choice for today.

Please Explain.

i just dont recall him being as scummy as say, MoS.

Wait, didn't BM want me as Tribune?

yes i did, because IF you were town, i figured you'd have enough sense to veto a BM-kill. take it as a compliment.

[Battle Mage]

I fear if I don't do this, nothing will be done.

Execute: BM

ridiculous logic. but i guess the act isnt a great surprise. all i have left to say is that both tribunes THINK about this before they decide what to do. If you are not absolutely certain that i am scum, use your veto. Do not just choose not to because you dont want to rock the boat. There is a reason that tribunes exist in this game. Unfortunately, they havent fulfilled any purpose so far this game. Its time for you to take a stand and go with your heart. thats the advice i'd want, if anyone had made me tribune.
Oh and btw, im vanilla here. Hence my evident desire to get to DO something here. unfortunately ive yet to have the opportunity to prove myself in a position of responsibility.
my life is in your hands.
BM

*waits for someone to shout Appeal to Emotion*

[Battle Mage]

thats an odd thing to say. i had assumed that despite the change in game mechanics, the objective was still to kill scum during the day.

[Battle Mage]

if you are unhappy, Veto the lynch. i may be killed tomorrow, but the fact is, we have 1 more opportunity to hit scum today.

[Battle Mage]

i dont think any of you have the right to criticise those orchestrating my lynch, because i dont think ANYONE voiced an objection to it. The problem tomorrow will be that today's execution not only means we have one less day to defeat the scum, but also that this execution will have taught us NOTHING.

[Battle Mage]

bah-humbug. lol

[Battle Mage]

hey guys, I'm back.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like things have got much better in my absence. Worse luck, i STILL don't get to be a Tribune or Consul (unless we have a day tomorrow, which is pretty unlikely).
I'm a bit confused about these setup queries though Sarcastro.
1. How do you know that there are 2 carthaginians left?
2. What makes you think there is no longer a Consulmaker?

I think a mass-claim is probably a wise idea, but that we had better wait until Shanba has been replaced.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Yosarian was not the last Consulmaker. I am . When i replaced in, i was sent the normal Roman Citizen pm, however when day started, i was told that i inherited the role of Consulmaker. Unfortunately, i STILL didn't get to use the role-as the choice of Yos stood. I'm not sure whether we have any Roman Citizens left now, so i'm not sure what happens if i die before tomorrow?

Also, who else has yet to claim? I'm hoping we might have a Cop who could help us here...

BM

I'm assuming that there are two Carthaginians left because it makes sense. Three total is simply too few, and five is believable, but high, especially if some or all of them have powers. Besides, I have trouble believing that

both

Shanba and Raffles are scum, which having three Carthaginians remaining would necessitate (taking into account that there's also an SK and that I know that I'm pro-town). And if there are three Carthaginians left, we're (or I'm) pretty much screwed anyway, so there's nothing to be gained by assuming that.

Battle Mage, pay better attention. I think that there is no Consulmaker because the Consulmaker and all the Roman Citizens are

dead

. VitaminR made that pretty clear, although now that I think about it, I'm not sure what he means when he mentions "that bit". Can you explictly confirm that the Consulmaker and all of his possible replacements are dead, and that there currently is no Consulmaker at all whatsoever, VitaminR?

Any reference to the "last Roman Citizen" was accidental.

[Battle Mage]

I don't see how mass claim would help, scums most likely have safe claims?

Yes, they probably do, but why exactly would that mean we shouldn't claim? I don't think CES gives scum fake roles, just names, and even if he did, there's still a good chance we can figure out which roles are real.

Who have been your targets, Rand?

Battle Mage, it's your turn to claim.

I protected Zindares until last night. Then I protected you.

just a minute. so you protected Zindaras EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, and then the only night you didn't protect him, was the one he got killed!?
Does that sound odd to anyone else?

FoS: Rand

[Battle Mage]

I don't see how mass claim would help, scums most likely have safe claims?

Yes, they probably do, but why exactly would that mean we shouldn't claim? I don't think CES gives scum fake roles, just names, and even if he did, there's still a good chance we can figure out which roles are real.

Who have been your targets, Rand?

Battle Mage, it's your turn to claim.

I protected Zindares until last night. Then I protected you.

just a minute. so you protected Zindaras EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, and then the only night you didn't protect him, was the one he got killed!?
Does that sound odd to anyone else?

FoS: Rand

As I said there had been no missed hits to speak of. Besides the Zindares SK thing was also going around then also.

so you protected Zindaras because you thought he was an SK?

Also, does anyone know enough about this sort of history to validate these role name claims?

[Battle Mage]

ah welcome back dude.

[Battle Mage]

can you please post links to the searches you made, just so we can all validate this?

[Battle Mage]

So, Rand's your scumbuddy, right?

rofl it sure looks that way.
What i don't understand is why the heck you want Doc protection tonight if you are town? We need a Consulmaker tomorrow, so we actually have a Day atall. If i die overnight, the town loses by default, unless you are a roman citizen, in which case i reccommend that you claim. Indeed, i'm not even positive why you are so trusting of Rand's doc claim. The only person who would KNOW he was telling the truth, would be scum, and personally, i don't think giving scum NK-protection is a good idea, especially if your figures about the carthaginians are correct...

I REALLY don't like the way you are sucking up to Rand though.

I'd be interested to hear what he has to say on the subject.

BM

[Battle Mage]

A couple issues which i would like Rand to address.
1. If Sarcastro was protown, why would he be so desperate to suck up to you, and get protection tonight?
2. If Sarcastro was protown, why has he not addressed any of the gameplay, in deciding who to execute?
3. If Sarcastro was protown, why has he made it so damn clear that his sole intention is to SURVIVE?

To conclude, i'm almost certain that Sarc is scum. Probably SK imo, hence the whole personal survival thing. If he was Mafia, he would have already won i think. It also explains why he wants protection-so he can avoid NK tonight, and kill the other Mafia, and then win the game by default.

Its even possible that he is throwing his buddy under the bus today, in case i survive till tomorrow, and make Rand Consul (which would presumably result in a town victory)

Anyway, before we go into Night, i'd like to hear Rands comments.

BM

Wow, look, the three scum don't want me and Rand to believe that the other is town.

Rand is pretty much the only explanation for the two missing kills. Unless you guys want to admit to not killing on those nights for some reason. As for the insuation that I'm Rand's scumbuddy - come on, people, what are you even trying to accomplish? Are you trying to convince the other scum that Rand and I are scum? Rand knows that he's pro-town and I know that we're both pro-town. Two of you know that at least one of us is pro-town. So the SK is the only person who could possibly be tricked into believing that Rand and I are scumbuddies, and that's only if he's dumb enough to ignore the fact that Rand knew that the blocked SK kill was on Zindaras (unless of course the SK no-killed voluntarily, which I doubt) and the fact that Rand is pretty much the only explanation for the mafia no-kill. So yeah, nice try, guys, but it's pointless.

The reason I need Rand to protect me is not so much that I need protection, but rather that if he protects either of the other two people, he'll be protecting either the SK or the last remaining Carthaginian (assuming I execute correctly today), and if they target each other, the town loses because one survives. Besides, Rand protecting me will ensure that just in case each of the two scum both have faith that the other won't kill him,

and

manage to target separate people, I will survive and force another prisoner's dilemma for the two scum. Oh, and I enjoy living. Still, it wouldn't be the end of the world if Rand decided to no-protect - it's just that protecting me is just as good in every way, and comes with a couple bonuses.

Given that all three scum have posted since I asked the SK to claim, I guess he's probably not going to. Raffles, I plan to execute you today. BM and Cephrir, if you're smart and if Raffles isn't the SK (if he is, congrats, you win), you'll target each other and hope that the other person targets either me or Rand. Rand, protect me. Oh, and just in case you're somehow telling the truth, BM, which I strongly doubt, make sure that you make either me or Rand tomorrow's Dictator.

Raffles, this is your last chance to claim if you're the SK.

[Battle Mage]

Rand, protecting BM would be a catastrophic error. He is scum, and if you protect him, he'll kill the other scum tonight and win. Just look at his posts. All he's doing is trying to get you to doubt me. He's not offering suggestions of who the scum are, he's not looking at any of the roles logically or strategically, and he's not trying to help the town win. He didn't even consider you confirmed until I explained why it was incredibly scummy not to think so.

If I have to claim to make you believe me, Rand, I will, but unless you think I'm scum who's decided that he's somehow better off not using his safeclaim, I urge you to trust me when I say that I have a good reason for not claiming. If it means the difference between you protecting me and you protecting BM, though, I'll claim.

Please respond quickly - we don't have much time until the deadline.

rofl. actually Rand i've had a change of mind. Rather then give you a catch 22 situation, i'm going to make this quite simple. Protect who you want-its out of my hands now. But whatever you do decide, don't post it here. There is an outside possibility that Sarc is town, as well as me and you, and as such, the scum's greatest desire would be to know which they could safely NK.
However, in making your decision, please

consider

the points i have made with regard to Sarc. All of them are valid reasons for him being scum. Further points from his last post alone include:

1. His hypocrisy. He criticises me of not looking at the roles strategically, yet he is the one witholding information from the town. He criticises me of not helping find the scum, when he has made it quite clear that he does not intend to reread ANY players himself.

2. Safeclaim reference. Do we have confirmation that scum in this game have safeclaims? even so, should Sarc turn out to be an SK, its highly improbable that he has one. The fact he is using this as a defence is odd.

3. Common scumtell. I was told in another game that using "trust me" as an argument is a common scumtell. You will probably know whether this is true or not, but its another feather of doubt in Sarcs cap.

4. Not related to his last post, but i think it deserves a mention-His choice of execution today. Which claim amounts to a scums worst nightmare?
Answer: Raffles.
If he really has a deflecting role, he is basically IMMUNE TO NK. Mafia/SK wouldnt want that, as the only way to get rid of him would be during the day. I don't recall Sarc's explanation for his choice, but i'm pretty confident that it wasn't concise and detailed. Raffles has now CLAIMED SK i should point out, but unless him and Sarc are buddies, Sarc wouldnt have known Raffles was scum, when he threatened to execute him.

With regard to Raffles claim-i have some doubts. His claim does sound potentially SK-ish, but i don't like the way in which Sarc seemed to KNOW that Raffles was the SK. I also don't understand what he means by a 'prisoners gambit'. Raffles could genuinely be the SK, or he COULD be Mafia, realising that his only way out was to claim SK, and hope that he wasn't countered.

Sarc-the issue with you is not that i don't trust you. Its more that you don't seem to trust us. You request protection, and yet you don't claim. How do you expect Rand, or anyone for that matter, to believe you?-especially when you fill your posts with a whole load of WIFOM and other anomalies.

The issue now is, is Raffles SK-scum or Mafia-Scum? (pardon the pun)

BM

[Battle Mage]

So. BM and Raffles are the mafia, and Sarc's the SK, I think. Rand and I are town. The town actually has a chance here, but it all depends on whether BM kills me or Sarc. Although in this entire scenario, I guess Sarc and BM could be exchanged, but I think this way is more likely.

I'm not sure how that makes sense. If i was scum, that would mean we wouldnt have a Consulmaker, and thus would already have lost right?

Also, i'm not so convinced about 2 mafia being left anymore. That would require Sarc, Raffles and Cephrir to be scum, and somehow that doesnt seem viable. Raffles is definitely scum, though im not sure whether he is SK or Mafia. Apparently Cephrir seems to know he is Mafia. Why is that?
On the other hand, a Sarc-Raffles scumpair seems unrealistic, as why would Sarc put so much pressure on his buddy today?
I'm pretty confident Rand is town, just by the fact that everyone seems to be sucking up to him so much. It is possible that he is Mafia with Sarc, but if so, they've really played that well.

BM

[Battle Mage]

rofl. I don't believe Sarc 1 bit. Its pretty obvious why he claimed 1-shot vig kill-so he can get away with NKing someone tonight without looking suspicious. I'm not sure how he's going to pull the RB off.
Ah well. As long as Rand has enough sense to see through slippery scum, we should be fine.

BM

[Battle Mage]

NICE ONE.

I gotta say, great work by the Mafia (excluding me). I cant believe that we managed to win, when we started the game severely against the odds. I think Sarc made himself far too obviously the SK today. I'd be interested to see, had we continued, who Rand would have protected.

I wasn't quite sure what Raffles was doing at the end. It was obvious that Sarc was the SK, yet Raffles fell into his trap. I figured the fact that he obviously didn't believe Raffles was confirmation that he was the SK himself, so i didn't counterclaim in order to protect my buddy.

I didn't actually realise the game was over until CES told me a minute ago. The town could not have won from what i gather. Had Sarc killed me (as actually, i'm a little surprised he didnt in the end, but glad) and then NKed Raffles, he would have won. Had both NKed each other, everyone would have lost (town included) apparently.

Anyway i'm glad to get the win. I'd be pretty disappointed if, having replaced into such a sweet position, i ended up throwing the game away.

Plus i know Twito wanted to stay in this game alot, and i'm pleased i could win it for him.

AWESOME WORK TEAM!

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bah! Yet another loss for me.

lol i'm par for this game. A victory and a loss. However, i feel i played better as scum than as town, so i'm happy overall

[Battle Mage]

rofl. Bitterness ftl.

Yeh admittedly, you did screw the game up for yourself at the end, but your play wasn't THAT terrible. For example, your ploy to reveal Raffles was really quite clever. In any case, you are wrong about what you needed to do. Convincing Rand to protect you was only half the battle. I'm not sure you KNEW i was the other mafioso, though it did look like you were leaning that way. Instead, i think there was a fair chance that you might have targetted Cephrir anyway. And besides, EVEN if you had somehow managed to kill both me and Raffles overnight, you would still have lost i think, because there was no Consulmaker, and unless Raffles had targetted Rand at night, you would have lost along with both town and Mafia.

I think you did play well. I must say, when i was town, i never really considered you as likely scum. Of course, when you were made Consul, you made it pretty damn obvious, but thats by-the-by.

However, you have to be fair and give credit to the Mafia (and no i dont mean me). I'm talking about the way in which, with a scumgroup of only 3, who never got anyone to the position of Consul, managed to reach Endgame with 2 of their members. It was thanks to the work of Raffles, Twito and Primate (and even N9V to an extent) that i ended up replacing into such a priveliged position, and i think really, it is those guys who thoroughly deserve all the praise.

No skin of your nose Sarc, you obviously did really well. For an SK to reach that stage is excellent. However the fact is that you didn't actually WIN. Take it on the chin, and be proud that you reached endgame, and only really lost on a technicality. My philosophy in games where i am scum, is that if we give the town a good run for their money, thats a fair result. As an SK, and as a solo mafioso, i like to take each day as it comes. If i was in your position now, i'd be a little disappointed about the actual result, but overall, damn proud that i had the vast majority of the town fooled until the end.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Actually, Sarc, in the end, I would've been forced to peg you as scum, simply through process of elimination. If I had bothered more yesterday, I should've seen it myself.

As far as catching more scum than the town goes...I killed N9V on Day One and pointed a lot at Raffles after that. In fact, had I had the chance, I could very well have executed Raffles yesterday. Rand wasn't going at that point anymore, so I had to do Occult. You killed Primate, sure, which would be a good catch if you had done it on the basis of suspecting he was scum, which I really can't say and don't know.

As an aside, BM, you're simply wrong on a few points. The Mafia had four members including the traitor, and Raffles was Consul on Day 4. In fact, he made the execution that day.

Oh i know about the traitor. However i don't believe he ever succeeded in finding us, and so didn't actually join the Mafia itself.
I forgot that Raffles was Consul lol.

[Battle Mage]

I gathered you thought that. but there again, the fact that you never considered executing me, implies that you obviously weren't as confident as your appeared.
I don't really see why you need consolation. It looks more to me like you are fishing for compliments. Yeah you played well. But you didn't play well enough. Thats a fact. Whinging about how unfair it is won't change that.
err and i'm not sure you were paying attention, as i never claimed scum. I think you're getting me confused with Raffles. lol


Personally i maintain that all 3 scum deserved the win. Both Raffles and Twito especially did great to reach that point in the game. You're upset because you let Twito-scum lurk his way to victory?

I don't really see how you can complain. You were the frigging SK. You had plenty of chances to kill him off, during the day AND at night.

Yos-thats actually a pretty good plan lol. Shame i had to go and put a spanner in the works by being protown. lol

What is even funnier is that you consider suspicion upon yourself to be 'illogical'. Sarc-you were SCUM. Surprisingly, when people produce a reasonable, solid case against scum, that's not ILLOGICAL. Its the exact opposite. I love the way you brag that nobody worked out your identity, and then, when somebody obviously did, you criticise their intelligence for doing so.

BM, I knew you were scum. I was almost as certain that you were scum as I was that Raffles was scum.

I find it hilarious that you're trying to console me by saying that my play "wasn't THAT terrible". I played better than you in both of your roles put together. You did absolutely

nothing

on the last day to change the outcome of the game. Anything short of claiming Hannibal, unnkable scum would have led to the same result. Hell, even doing that might have made me execute Raffles out of reverse psychology.

You think there was a fair chance I would have targetted Cephrir? Yeah right, BM. That's called wishful thinking. I knew Cephrir was town, and I was desperately hoping that Rand wouldn't realise it. I knew since the moment you claimed that you were scum.

Zindy - of course you would have figured out that I was scum in the endgame. I never claimed otherwise. But you said yourself the day before you died that you weren't willing to execute me, and I think that indicates pretty strongly that you thought I was pro-town before the diminishing number of players made it clear that I wasn't.

I honestly don't care if you guys think I was being a sore loser. Despite replacing in, I invested more into this game than anyone save perhaps Zindaras. On the last day, while the scum pranced around doing nothing but yelling illogical cheap shots at me, I was trying to make sure that they wouldn't win. If Rand didn't protect me, oh well, town wins, I'm disappointed but not upset. The fact that the scum got saved by unbalanced roles really pisses me off. Once again, they did not deserve to win. Maybe on an individual level Raffles or Primate did, but Twito especially did not. The fact that he was Hannibal and he was the last one standing leaves a particularly sour taste in my mouth.

If I ever get around to writing up my record and statistics, I'm counting this game as a win, because I damn well deserved it.

[Battle Mage]

thats rhetoric. As you never said you DID consider executing me, then i'm guessing you probably didn't.

ROFL. This is ridiculous. The game is over, so please cut the lies out. There is no fucking way you suspected Hannibal was Un-NKable. If you did, you certainly wouldn't have been so surprised when you lost. If you really believed the stuff you are spouting now, you would have won the game. As it is, you didn't, so anyone is going to have a hard time believing you.

The more you rant, the more i disagree that you played well enough to deserve the win. If you knew that Hannibal was Un-NKable, and you knew that Raffles wasnt Hannibal, it doesnt take a genius to work out that you were screwed if you NKed him. Yet you obviously didnt seem to realise this at the time.

As far as i'm aware, the only thing i did which gave away my role, was attack the SK perhaps more than i sought the Mafia. Of course, to YOU that was a give away that i was scum. However, to Cephrir and Rand, it wasn't, and i don't think either of those 2 shared your 'certainty' that i was scum.

lol unlike you, i'm not claiming to deserve the win. The victory belongs to Primate, N9V, Twito and Raffles, who worked hard for it. I've said that from the start of this discussion. All i did was seal the deal when Twito wasnt around to do so for himself.
You of course forget that i played in this game twice-once as town. I do like to keep track of my games, so regardless of the outcome, this doesnt count as a win for me. However, as i have said, i enjoy playing as scum far more, so i'm glad it went the way it did.

Lol i'm not going to get into an argument over semantics. the fact is, yep you are being a bad loser. Emphasis not on loser, but on BAD. Seriously, its a game. The vast majority of us play to enjoy, and whilst winning is nice, its the play itself that is the most important thing. You seem to think it is fair to steal the glory from the Mafia, who in this game, deserved it. Whether or not you deserved it is irrelevant. Your attitude post-game has earned you enough compliments i think. Attacking the mod for this is just ridiculous.

If you really feel that you did well enough to mark this game as a win, then do so. You could even brag about it on AIM or whatever. But do me a favour, and don't try and criticise everyone elses play, in an attempt to inflate your own ego.


BM

I gathered you thought that. but there again, the fact that you never considered executing me, implies that you obviously weren't as confident as your appeared.
I don't really see why you need consolation. It looks more to me like you are fishing for compliments. Yeah you played well. But you didn't play well enough. Thats a fact. Whinging about how unfair it is won't change that.
err and i'm not sure you were paying attention, as i never claimed scum. I think you're getting me confused with Raffles. lol


Personally i maintain that all 3 scum deserved the win. Both Raffles and Twito especially did great to reach that point in the game. You're upset because you let Twito-scum lurk his way to victory?

I don't really see how you can complain. You were the frigging SK. You had plenty of chances to kill him off, during the day AND at night.

Yos-thats actually a pretty good plan lol. Shame i had to go and put a spanner in the works by being protown. lol

What is even funnier is that you consider suspicion upon yourself to be 'illogical'. Sarc-you were SCUM. Surprisingly, when people produce a reasonable, solid case against scum, that's not ILLOGICAL. Its the exact opposite. I love the way you brag that nobody worked out your identity, and then, when somebody obviously did, you criticise their intelligence for doing so.

Once again, practically everything you say makes no sense. When did I say that I never considered executing you? I thought for a long time about whether to kill you or Raffles. I actually suspected that Hannibal might have unnkability, and I thought that Raffles's claim might have been a bid to get me to execute him. If you want proof, ask Yaw. I talked to him several times about this game. I'm still kicking myself for choosing to assume that it would be too unbalanced to give Hannibal unnkability.

Fishing for compliments? I think the fact that I'm acknowledging that I sound like a sore loser and that I don't care what any of you think kind of contradicts that. I don't really care what anybody else thinks - I care about the fact that I know that I played well enough to win, which I did, by the way. And when did I say that you claimed scum? You didn't need to claim scum, you made it pretty obvious that you were. Just not as obvious as Raffles, unfortunately.

Twito did not deserve the win. Neither did you, but I can't really begrudge you that, since you replaced in on the last day and didn't actually have an opportunity to change the game's outcome. That's not to say that I'm not angry with the way you're behaving right now.

Again, I don't understand what you're talking about. When did I say that anybody who thought I was scum was illogical? Of course I was scum, but it was pretty clear that I had everyone deceived until the last day, when it became basically impossible to hide it anymore. I don't remember calling anyone stupid for thinking I was scum. Are you talking about in-game on the last day? Because obviously that's different, since I'm lying through my teeth. The fact that you say I'm "bragging" (not really, I'm stating a fact in defense of a point) and then insulting people for figuring out that I'm scum implies that I've been saying that after the fact, which is absolutely untrue. Please stop making things up, BM. You're already doing a good enough job of being a jerk.

CES - fine, use whatever excuses you want. I suppose you've at least acknowledged that the set-up was unbalanced, even if you insist upon defending it. Hoping for a "Sorry, Sarc, I know it was unbalanced but it would have been even more unfair to try to change it part of the way through" was probably too optimistic on my part.

I am interested in knowing who Rand would have protected, though. Obviously he's going to be a bit biased by knowing the result, but I'm hoping he'll at least have picked Cephrir, if not me.

[Battle Mage]

well an SK has a big disadvantage against the Mafia, simply due to sheer numbers. If it wasn't for the fact that Mafia bus each other, an SK is mathematically an underdog to a mafia group of any size-with larger scumgroups lengthening those odds.

However, i don't think the best part of being an SK is the winning anyway. Imo, the best part is that you get the opportunity to play for you, and only you. Nobody elses victory is in your hands, so there is none of the pressure you get as scum or town. And of course, even more importantly, you get sole decision over who gets NKed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol don't twist what i said. I didn't say winning wasn't important, i simply said that it wasnt the be-all and end-all. And it isnt for any type of role. I can play well as town, and not win. I can play well as scum and not win.
I'm sure there's a saying that states that a well fought defeat, is better than a hollow victory (or something along those lines). Obviously killing as an SK isnt about getting cheap kicks. Its about eliminating threats. Now as mafia, someone who is a threat to you, may not be to someone else. However as an SK, you get to decide who to kill, to solely benefit YOU.

BM

well an SK has a big disadvantage against the Mafia, simply due to sheer numbers. If it wasn't for the fact that Mafia bus each other, an SK is mathematically an underdog to a mafia group of any size-with larger scumgroups lengthening those odds.

However, i don't think the best part of being an SK is the winning anyway. Imo, the best part is that you get the opportunity to play for you, and only you. Nobody elses victory is in your hands, so there is none of the pressure you get as scum or town. And of course, even more importantly, you get sole decision over who gets NKed.

BM

This is a silly way to consider the SK role. Sheer numbers are a disavantage, but there are ways of making up for that disadvantage, and even make a game where the SK is favored. (I tend to make games where the SK has a 25-35% chance of winning.) Also, while you might think winning isn't an aspect of the game that you care about, most people do. Being able to kick people out of a game for your own kicks, with no other real objective, is otherwise fairly juvenile.

[Battle Mage]

I'm not saying i don't believe what you said. I'm saying that if you foresaw one of your opponents being Un-NKable, and didnt act on it, you are an idiot.

In my opinion, you are of the frame of mind where you are seeking someone to blame for your loss. A retarded monkey could have played as Twito, but he would almost certainly not have WON THE GAME. Thats probably Twito's best quality-people underestimate him. You fell into that trap as much as anyone.

I quoted the bit below because it's hilarious:

your part is an attempt to make yourself seem like a good winner, which you're quite evidentally not.

Criticising everyone else's play? Where did that come from? As far as I can tell, I've only explicitly criticised Twito's play.

I love the irony. You insult someone, and then the sentence later, deny that you did so.
Priceless...

One final thing i'd like to point out is another of your little lies. You claim that you don't care about this game any more, yet if that were the case, why the hell do you keep coming in here bitching about everyone, particularly me?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sarcastro, tough shit. Rules are rules and you gotta make the best of it. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to know this happens in real world, and nothing would change by one person bitching.

Thanks, Raffles. That was definitely a necessary contribution. I'm glad you realised that I was angry because I don't understand the concept of rules and think that everything in life will be perfectly fair. It's awfully nice of you to take time to explain to me that I can't change the past by talking.

My first couple posts were simply a matter of venting anger about an unfair set-up. The rest have mostly just been responses to BM being a jerk.

see thats your problem Sarc. You expect that if you insult people enough, you will get the last word. A petty victory eh?
But seriously, if anyone is being a royal jerk here, its YOU. ffs get over yourself.
As long as you keep posting BS, i'll gladly return to teach you not to do so in future.

BM