Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I think I can accept

voting Mastermind of Sin

for Consul.
And of course you should look out for Panzerjager, he was Hannibal last game...

[TheEyeOfMordor]

EBWODP: Do we want two Tribunes? If we do so we should decide on a second one as well if we do not want somebody random getting it.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, AndrewS, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor)
Battle Mage - 2(~N9V~,Battle Mage)
Raffles - 2(Raffles, Cephrir)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Panzerjager - 1(Panzerjager)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I doubt Panzer is Mafia, if he is he is pulling an insane gambit.
People should start to decide who they want to support to avoid possible problems I think.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I personally think that AndrewS would make a good Tribune as well as MoS.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I am voting for MoS because I can reasonably trust him not to blunder as a Tribune and his play has been proper so far.
I also support AndrewS for Tribune, he also has experiance and I feel similar about his play and MoS's play.
However AndrewS did not nominate himself, he chose to nominate mole instead. That will be an interesting point later in the game.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

@MoS: He nominated mole as a second candidate, it was that I was getting at.
@Andrew: Okay, explanation accepted.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I say we just execute BM. He's been acting more of a noob scum then Cephrir has in my opinion.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Why couldn't there be 2 Mafias?
Although I doubt it, I think there still is a chance for that to occur.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I don't know who I want executed. I like the idea of a BM execution like I have said before. I don't really care about all the lurkers that much, although if it comes down to a deadline, then we should definately lurkerslay.
I had evil Roman Emperors as well as barbarians in my Roman Mafia game on another site so I think 2 mafias at least is plausible.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I didn't even mention Cephrir at all, so even if I was defending him I couldn't do much.
Incidentally I am pretty much neutral over him, that is I have no feeling about him.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

@BM: As far as I can see your reasoning is that since I am scum and voting you, Town ubertimmy sees that and votes me. Fellow scum Panzer and Kison help me cover up by voting for ubertimmy and as a result 3 scum have now given themselves away...
I think not.
The only thing I have noticed about ubertimmy is that he said he didn't want to vote for Tribunes and then the post where he votes me. Altohugh I can understand reasoning behind TheEyeOfMordor votes the fact that he votes for me and hasn't really done much else doesn't say much for him even if I would turn out scum.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

My last post was supposed to be somewhat sarcastic.
And I don't see any reason why a lurking scum wouldn't vote for his scumpartner. I wouldn't put any townie/scumminess on the factor that a lurker wanted to vote me.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

The real problem I can see is whether players should be executed for problematic play, as BM appears to be showing. If the answer to this question is yes, then BM should be executed on the spot, so that we don't get into lynch the bad player or the scummy one.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Cosulmakers should be smart enough to choose their own targets, but I would just advise them not to be choosing from the same small minority of good players here, to avoid the scum problem.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

livingod - 5(

Primate

, Panzerjager, HackerHuck, Raffles, ~N9V~)
Cephrir - 3(AndrewS, Battle Mage, Toaster Strudel)
Battle Mage - 1(Cephrir)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(ubertimmy)
Ubertimmy - 1(Kison)

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Personally I think it would have been better to decide beforehand how we are dealing with BM before we executed somebody.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Vote: Primate

for now.
Don't have much to say except that Zindaras shot well when he slew N9V~.
However I am feeling that we should at some point have a change of people at the helm to avoid them being scum. The death of a scum day 1 is a perfect way to cement townieness...

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Do not really have much to say at the moment.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

If we want lurkers, then ubertimmy and livingod are the way to go. Still suffering from the Battle Mage problem, which I believe we need to make a decision about.
Raffles I think to be slightly scummy, and I haven't come to a conclusion about Kison.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Where have you been?
Seriously, I haven't felt or seen much of our two Consuls today.
I feel that this setup will lead to rather boring days so discussion is worth it.
So I now ask, who do the Consuls think scummy and why?

[TheEyeOfMordor]

This is getting rather crazy...
I agree with Kison about HackerHuck. His opinion's, and MoS's, are the ones which will decide the day. Although Zindaras and Primate have an effect, it is the Consuls which have the real power. The Consuls should be active, not just a gimp for a mafia infested Town. The Consuls also put pressure on people, which will lead to claiming and so forth. Nobody else can do this as well as the Consuls.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

For MoS
Zindaras: As Consul he has tried a couple gambits, to gain reactions. Manages to execute a scum Day 1. However, I don't like his Day 2 play at all. Spending a lot of effort Day 2 to get BM lynched, didn't see any of it Day 1. His opinion, as far as I can tell, is similar to mine. But while he seems to want to execute BM I just want the Town to decide what to do with him. I definately do not like the reasoning that a scum Consul would never execute his own scumbuddy D1 and that that is a scummy factor for BM to suggest that.
Twito: Unable to connect Day 1(according to him). Day 2 has had one post of content from him. His play feels like mine when I replace into a big game. I am not willing to make an opinion about yet, I haven't seen enough.
Scummary
Zindaras: Felt neutral-protown until Day 2, but my opinion of him has dropped.
Twito: Hasn't posted enough for me to tell.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Last pages were Battle Mage and I arguing about his analysis of me.
In the last post I made I found him contradicting himself, claiming that my out of game referance to Panzer didn't mean anything while in his analysis he used it to try and prove my scumminess.
If it is possible I would like the Mod to restroe those pages...

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Since you won't rewrite your analysis I will ask you this then?
Which one of your opinions about my statement about Panzer will you stick to?
That which you wrote in your analysis, that it was an attempt to get Panzer executed
Or that it really didn't mean anything at all, which you claimed later.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

And your reasoning is.....
A: I am attacking you so I must be scummy
B: My hypocritical analysis of Zindaras
C: My lying about your statement of Panzer
The above reasons are the only ones you have given and I do not agree with all of them.
To A, even though somebody is attacking you does not mean he is scum. A well balanced town player will tend to attack things he does not agree with.
To B, I believe Zindaras and I are using a different approach for handling you. I believe my approach has been more consistent and I have never changed from it. Zindaras, apart from a few gambits started to really attack you day 2.
To C, I disagree. You attacked me for my out of game reference and then you said something entirely differnet. Which one of your statements is your opinion?

[TheEyeOfMordor]

And in my opinion it didn't help your analysis either.
So as far as I can tell, point B and around there is where your reasoning is based on.
And after the crash you still haven't written down any reasons for why you thought I was scummy, you are just referring to your analysis that was and isn't anymore. From what is written here I highly doubt that any Consul would want to execute me.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

No, I won't admit that. If your case was good enough to lynch me I would be dead by now. However I cannot just say, your case is BS. That would be wrong. Although it may be my belief that there is little to know evidence in your case other people might disagree. So I put forth my defence, letter by letter. And because I can't defend myself so from shadow accusations I ask for your accusation. It is one thing to say TEOM is scum. That usually doesn't get you anywhere unless you explain it further. Another thing entirely is to build a balanced case up. You had a case but since it disappeared I would ask you to write it up again. Then I will be able to defend myself point by point and disprove your case.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

@BM
You said: B. There was a hell of alot more in depth analysis than that.
I don't remember said in depth analysis. When I made my points those were the few that I remembered. Other people may or may not remember more then I do.
It is impossible to defend yourself from TEOM is scum, TEOM is scum. It is also almost impossible to lynch somebody with that. That is the only thing I am seeing from you.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Kison should claim now.
If he was on the Raffles wagon chances are he is scum though. That wagon has good probability of scums.
I would like to hear from our Tribunes more, have not heard much from Zindaras of late and Primate has gone missing.
My opinion ATM of BM is that he is hammerheading(Single target aggression) which comes a lot from misguided Town. It happened to me in my first Newbie game, where every thing your taget does makes him look scummier and scummier because you can't change direction. My belief is that if the Town intends to lynch him for playing style then do it SOON. If not, then don't use it as an excuse later on. A LoL where a possible Town BM is lynched for being himself would be a disaster.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

You still have the analysis of me to do. Especially look for the Primate TEOM connections which BM was going on about yesterday, they Definately need looking into...
As for who should be today's Tribune, I am not sure about. I would have suggested Shanba but he is already Consul. I want to hear MoS's analysis of yesterday, as I am kind of interested in his opinion about the various analysis's he made us do and so on. At the moment I am not ready to support him for Tribune, although we are needing good candidates, we are losing them every Night.
Now that Zindaras is Consul again I would be interested in seeing more activity from him then yesterday, where he kind of faded out during the end. If we are lucky he will kill us another scum...
Finally, I am taking the National Tests next week, starting Wednesday 2. May. I might not have that much time on during that time as they are rather important.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

EBWODP: My opening was aimed at Shanba.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Anyways, we have a lot to do, so here are a few points.
A: BM and Zindaras are not scum together. I am more then 90% about that. With 2 scum as Consuls, they would sacrifice BM for sure instead of somebody else.
B: We need to kill the Elephant quickly. I think we only have 2 scum left, maybe 3. It is imperative that we get the Elephant as soon as we can. That second kill will ruin us if left unchecked.
C: Is this like a Kingmaker game, where if the Mafia kill all the Citizens they win? I am not sure on that point.
D: Is a massclaim proper at this stage? I am wondering if it is, on the downside it will show Townies to the Mafia but we can catch the scum in false claims.
E: The lurkers will need to talk or they will die. Especially Cephrir, who Primate was defending.
F: Voting oneself for Tribune is bad, so a secure choice is the proper way to go. The problem is that there are not really any left. So I will refrain from voting at this satge unless our lurkers speak more.
G: The only reason I would post about the National Tests being where they are is so that I

wouldn't

be accused of lurking...
That is all for the moment

[TheEyeOfMordor]

B: Believe me that we want to get rid of the 2 kills as quickly as possible. Those situations turn into bad endgames, Bond Villain Mafia is a good example. If you don't then they can cooperate.
D: Scum will have to claim either A: Citizen or B: Powerrole where they will have to prove themselves.
E: There are not enough people alive for waiting to be a solution, we need action, and action quickly from them.
F: A disagreement
G: If you think I am lying check out my modded game.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

My real guess is that Yos is the only other choice for BM, he wouldn't want to be seen voting for me or MoS for Tribune...
The thing is, that we have gotten to a point where experiance is not where I would put a Tribune vote, it is from peoples actions that I will judge them.
I have never liked Raflles all that much TBH, although that may be due to the fact that I disliked the Raffles wagon immensely because it was loose and the sort of wagon that scum would hop onto.
I disagree with BM getting the Tribune vote, as he still hasn't shown my ridiculous scumminess and his play in my opinion hasn't been all to good.
Lurkers are lurkers, and I would not give a lurker my vote. Their actions are not the sort of actions I would want to see from a Tribune, and definately not from a Consul.
I will not vote for Yosarian2 today, I want to see him play out a day first before I make up my mind on him.
I will not vote for MoS today, he has had enough power for a while, if he is scum he could screw us.
I will not self vote.
Therefore I will abstain from voting for Tribune.
And where are our Consuls?!

[TheEyeOfMordor]

There really isn't any real good reason that I am not self voting. Except that I just stated that I wouldn't. Which would make it hypocritical if I did.
Yos said that maybe I was trying to look good. What good would that do when it looks bad?
I have no real reason not to selfvote, and there is some reasoning to do so, except that I made a statement and intend today to stick by it(unless by some wierd chance BM becomes a real candidate). Consistancy is the only real thing I have, and I think sticking to it is a good thing.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Thoughts about them(Without reread)
Cephrir: Has been lurking. Mentioned by the scum Primate at least once, perhaps twice. Haven't felt anything specific from him other then lurkiness. However I think he has a higher scum chance rate then some other lurkers.
BM: Has played rather aggressively. Used Day 2 to start a case against me, and has continued to go on about it even though he hasn't given any proof. Day 3 however he has slowed down a bit, turning more attention to MoS, like in Day 1. As I said BM + Zindaras scumgroup has very little %. His play strikes me as "You are scum, therefore everything you do is scummy". I used the term hammerheading as well over this mentality.
MoS: I get the feeling he has been trying to be one of the leading players in this game. He has been playing rather solidly, although he did slay Kison the Townie. I feel like he has put quite a bit of effort in to this game, like I have. I am not sure how to read him though. He definately deserves scrutiny about his motives though.
Anything more you need?

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Cephrir = 7
BM = 4
MoS = 6

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I voted for Primate as Tribune, I thought he was a better choice then Zindaras at that point.
You also fail to notice that I supported the AndrewS Tribuneship, rather then the Raffleswagon. Supporting MoS keeps him above Raffles Day 1. AndrewS is town(as far as I can tell) and Raffles is still unknown.
I wouldn't call my Tribune voting appaling although it is not as good perhaps as others.
Another thing is I doubt all scum would join the MoS wagon. Even if Zindaras is an elephant(which appears possible), I doubt that 3 scum would enter their scummates wagon in the early stages on average. It would be very dangerous, although I might do so, if I would enter a scummates wagon I would do it early.
The fact that Cephrir is on the Raffleswagon makes him stand more out, as I have said there is almost surely scum there.
So I say Cephrir and Zindaras look more suspicious, and I still am not sure about MoS.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Consistency is a TEOM tell. I am very consistent both as scum and Town. It says nothing whatsoever about my alignment if I stick to my opinions.
Been reading a bit in, OOG content should stay OOG, if the games in question are still going on.
Don't really have much to add to Shanba's analysis except that I do not see how it is possible to come to his conclsion. If MoS is scum, why did all the scum support him and give themselves away? In my opinion, scum should try to aim for balance, not inbalance.
I think the chances are higher that if MoS is Town, then I am scum. Besides, BM said that one of us was scum, so obviously if MoS is Town then I must be scum.
Where are our lurkers? I have noticed Cephrir posting a bit more, but that is all...

[TheEyeOfMordor]

BM, I am pretty sure that some Consul(whether scum or not) will execute you at some point. I am also sure that if somebody intends to execute you, now is the time to do it while we still have breathing space.
About Shanba's last TEOM post, the part with BM was semi sarcasm, like a lot of my other BM posts. As far as I could see, your points were directed there.
My current stand is that that BM is probably town. That still doesn't change the fact that his play hasn't been all that good. And that he probably will get executed, and should be executed ATM if he is to be lynched for bad play and logic. The problem here is that even though BM likely is Town, I wouldn't trust his endgame play. It is likely to destroy us. I think that an endgame without BM is preferable to one with him. Now I would like him to explain why he shouldn't be executed, and put forth good arguments, like I think I have done.

Vote: BM

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I think I defended myself very well Day 2 for instance. If you disagree explain why.
And I have deliberately voted for myself as Town for instance, if I feel that my position is weak and that my living only helps the scum. That is my feeling about you. The longer you survive the better it is for the scum.
My endgame play isn't really all that tested as Town, the only Town endgame I have been in was Ben and Jerry's and I had a terrible role there. All of my other endgames I have been scum. But I definately feel that I trust my endgame play more then I do yours. I must assume that you disagree...
+ I am not certain that you are protown, as you put it. That is misrepresentating me.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

He can kill somebody and prove himself I hope. So I say don't execute him.
Will be out on a school trip for the next few days in Denmark, I will be back on Friday.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

BBRRAAIINNSS!!

[TheEyeOfMordor]

Bah! Yet another loss for me.

[TheEyeOfMordor]

I had caught on to the fact that Yos was Consulmaker. It was just that I died before I could use that information to my advantage. BM should be able to learn a lot from this game considering our argument. I never really thought he was scum so it is either kill him early in the game for his playstyle or never. I am not sure if I would have supported Raffles execution of BM, as it was too late for playstyle kills.
In the endgame, I can't see how putting suspicion on Rand would help out the scum members who tried it for a while, barring a counterclaim he was a proven doc, seeing that he blocked both Mafia and SK kills if I recall correctly.
And at the end it should be possible to prove that Sarc is the SK, after Raffles claimed and Cephrir said that he was Town and Sarc was SK and BM + Raffles were Mafia, all of the sudden Sarc says Cephrir is the SK. Which I think should be a SK tell seeing that Raffles claimed.
This game should also tighten up the battle against lurkers, two of them(Twito + ubertimmy) were scum.
By the way,what did AndrewS's role do?

[TheEyeOfMordor]

So Cephrir actually managed to kill TS. I thought smething was odd about that kill.
And everybody who has played in CES games knows that he always has weak SK's(His UPick Mafia, which I played in, is a good example).
I didn't really like Raffles, although it was more of a gut instinct thing. I was thinking he was a popularist or something similar. I made more attention however to the Raffles wagon, as I felt the scum were supporting it.