Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Shanba]

Just confiriming that I am indeed here, however I'm busy making myself a list of long and confusing notes either pointing out the obvious or contradicting themselves. I've just about reached day 2 on my notes, however from my preliminary read I have some preliminary suspicions. I'll let you know in a bit.
Oh, and just in case

Unvote all

, although my predecessor appears not to have been voting anyone.

[Shanba]

Alright, I'm still busy on my second read through, just finished day 2. Also as a note to our Dead King, I'm replacing Nightfall (at least that's what my role PM said ). If anyone wants me to, I can post some preliminary suspicions/things I found interesting.

[Shanba]

Right then, I've read through the entirety of the thread twice and now I have some thoughts on the players and events of the days.
First off, day 1: I didn't really feel any of the wagons were particularly strong this day. That being said, my suspicions of Phoebus rose steadily with every post he made. SO I'm anti Pheobus at the moment. However, I like the feel I'm getting from Dragonsofsummer so far so that's susceptible to change. Petroleum Jelly... I'm not sure about his reign. It could very well have been that he was deliberately avoided the issue long enough to have a deadline insituted, at which point he could feign panic and execute a townie. Couple of interesting quotes about this:

PJ... if there's no conversation at all and BMQ is forced to impose a deadline, then what are you going to do? I the last post I made (or maybe second to last) I asked for a LoE, because no one had posted at all... and since then, no real content has been posted. It's not a good idea for the town to drag through the day and then be forced to choose basically a random person to excecute at the last minute because of a deadline. If we can narrow our search and pick out the best candidates out of the people w/ the most votes, then maybe we'll be able to reach a discision before the game dies again. It feels as if the game is draggin unneccessarily at this point... and that actual contribution from the players is nonexistant (or, no content is being posted, take your pick)

Besides, no one is really voting for anyone, and no one is anywhere close to majority... If you don't put at least a couple of people on by your own discression... there won't be a LoE until it's too late to discuss our options.

To which PJ replied

-snip-
3.) If a deadline is imposed which cannot be retracted (to respond to Twomz), I will clearly be forced into making a premature LoE and executing from that List whether I wish to or not. Until that time, I will play as I see fit, and not try to rush things.
-snip-

This was 5 (I think, I'm not good with dates) days before the deadline was imposed. PJ is clearly not ready for a deadline and not planning on one either. I think this is scummy, however through the next two days I've found myself thinking more and more that PJ is town. Just worth pointing out though, I thought.
Another interesting thing, considering MBL was town and the way things panned out the next night and day

2.) Since it's pretty clear I'm not the Kingmaker, I think I will advocate a Glork-King tomorrow, although I think I would personally prefer a Thok-King (simply because Thok almost seems to be matching my brainwaves this game), both strong players (who are attentive to the game), and who I am currently thinking are likely to be town.

This rubbed me the wrong way, tiger. If we have an impressionable Kingmaker, they'll likely heed your will. Hypothetically, scum can easily kill the one of those two that's town, leaving us with a scum king tomorrow.

Not sure what to make of that, just seemed eerily accurate in his prediction. Am on the fence about Glork being scum.

Finally, I thought it might be interesting to look at some things Pooky said, knowing he's scum: His first interaction was with Twomz (his third to sixth post) and the Glork/PJ. Interesting how it should be Twomz who has picked up a lot of flak for other reasons who should be addressed by him. On the other hand, I get the impression Pooky's a respected player, so he probably wouldn't make the connection that obvious. There was also some MoS/Twomz connection that day, but I can't seem to find it in my notes.

Day2: Don't like Mos' play this day or the next. In fact,

Vote MoS

. I think failing to contribute is not at all helpful, his defeatist attitude is annoying, and his deliberate obstinacy day 1 was not a good thing. Basically what everyone else has said. And here y'all were thinking a replacement would have new things to say .

The town was polarised in a way I really don't like Day 2, essentially dividing into 2 factions and allowing lurkers to hide in the midst of them. This division into factions can not have been healthy, as it allowed the scum to blend in and also means that the town may overlook scum hiding in "their" faction or be overly suspicious of someone in the other faction. I don't like the way Spectrumvoid played this day, as it felt rather like she was playing both sides against the other and therefore worsening the split. This also ties in to what other people have called flip-flopping.

Vote: Spectrumvoid

Final thing is the whole nutkicking business. Firstly we can be sure MBL proposed it in good faith, because he died and came up townie. That being said, the theory relies on you believing the Bird1111 was scum to begin with and I can't say I'm seeing that. However, I think this theory is given more credence by Pooky turning up scum as he also hat a short burst of posts beginning day 2. It's possible there was 1 or 2 active scum in a group of lurkers who lost it and told them all to start posting a bit more.

Glork was a good king, I thought, but he went overboard with attacking some of his suspects for (occasionally) weak reasons.

Day3: Don't like MoS' play at all this day. Also, although I couldn't see the case on Mert, I can very easily see the case on RafK as his attack on Yos2 was complete rubbish and his subsequent switch to Svoid felt like a scum trying to find a target that would stick. This applies to a lesser extent to Olio too.

Vote RafK, FoS Olio

Also, Svoid, I don't believe you can have forgotten it was kingmaker as in posts 615 and 1326 you seem acutely aware the game is kingmaker.

If anyone wants me to elaborate on any points or to hear my thoughts on any issues, you only need to ask.

[Shanba]

Good posting shanba.

Did you miss this:

Player analysis

Who was against both lynches
LL,SV, MBL, CTD, Yos (for thinking Pooky was neutral)

Who was against both lynches, but thought pooky was townier (wanted Yos)
CTD, LL

Who wanted Pooky
Zindaras, Scope, Pablito

Who wanted Yos
DR, Mos (wanted either but prefers Yos), lowell

Who changed their mind halfway:
Glork: said he was not THAT sure Yos was scum in post 1009, then attacked Yos.
PJ: asked Pooky to hurry up with analysis, then said Pooky was neutral, but he wasn't getting a good read off his posts.
Zindaras: jokes that pooky was nutkicked, says he's disappointed by a Pooky execution, says Pooky is not a good execution.
pablito: suggests stay of execution of Pooky, then says he would execute Pooky.

Quoting the whole post just in case you missed it. The important bit is at the front. There were 5 people who disagreed with both lynches (ie: playing both sides.) Is there a particular reason you decided to single me out?

Yes, there was. I felt that at times you were agreeing with one side then agreeing with the other. Most of the others just disagreed with both, whereas you I felt were consciously worsening the split. Also, looking at that list, one's dead, two I think are likely innocent, one's you and the other's Luckayluck who was saying that everyone is good and that's why he disagreed. Also, having read other games of his, it's pretty clear that that's his normal playstyle (if not normally exaggerated to such a degree.

As for agreeing with everyone, well... I think they're right. I have other minor suspicions but I didn't think it was worth talking about them as they were mostly gut. I dunno, maybe that's wrong, but I don't want to get caught up defending accusations that I know to myself to be weak.

And the RafK vote? If you think he isn't being scummy, why do you think so? Sometimes it's important to be a sheep. After all, if everyone was pursuing 20 different leads noone we wouldn't really get anywhere.

[Shanba]

Also, although I couldn't see the case on Mert, I can very easily see the case on RafK as his attack on Yos2 was complete rubbish and his subsequent switch to Svoid felt like a scum trying to find a target that would stick. This applies to a lesser extent to Olio too.

Elaborate, elaborate! Whee!

I'm not sure what there is to elaborate: RafK attacked Yos2 for a crap reason and you followed him. I found that scummy.

[Shanba]

I'm still here... I find it hard to post without motivation though, being a lurker by nature.

[Shanba]

Whey! The game's been resurrected! All hail king Smashy!

[Shanba]

mod

, I have to ask for a replacement.

Serious stuff going in real-life and I need some time to clear my thoughts. Thanks for the game everyone.

Sorry to see you go.

ThAdmiral replaces olio, effectve once he posts in the thread.

Deadline in roughly four days.

Isn't he the one who's trying to replace into every game that's currently running on the site + some of the finished ones?
Of the people on the king's execution list, I want SV dead most, although I'm beginning to see LL as scum as well. His last few posts don't really sit right with me. I can't really see the case against DoS or CES

[Shanba]

If any of you people saying "keel! keel!" turn around and say that Smashy made the wrong choice, it will not be happy making.

[Shanba]

Sorry I haven't been posting, I had limited access last week and before that Iwas just lurking, I guess. Pablito is entirely right thatI need to post more, and I'm working on it. Somehow it seems much easier to play these games when you're not in them. But I digress.
I really think Svoid is scum, especially now that Glork has turned up town. The way she pushed both sides on day two on the MBL/glork issue seems especially scummy now that they both turned up town. So

Vote Spectrumvoid

. I thought Zindies logic was sketchy earlier on, as was the way he seemed joined at the hip to Glork, so

Vote Zindaras

and

vote Mnowax

as I have a really bad feeling about him and I do not like the way he seems to be actively lurking worries me.

[Shanba]

Wow. That last sentence didn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Shanba]

Aright, this ought to be interesting. I'll have another look at all those player's posts then I'll sum up my thoughts.

[Shanba]

You didn't say he was a good king, you said
"he did a fine job as king", "he did make a decent effort as king", "I think Smashy was forced into a tight situation and did the best he could with the time he had". All from post 1826. I sense much backtracking in your last post.

[Shanba]

Aright. I still haven't read through MoS but I can give some thoughts on the other players on the LoE
VitaminR: I feel Phoebus was extremely scummy and Dragonsofsummer, while not looking particularly scummy did nothing to change my opinion of that role. That being said, now VitaminR has replaced in, the lurker problem there might be solved. I'd say wait and see on VitaminR. Also, I think this execution would give very little information.

Spectrumvoid: After re-reading her posts, a lot of the scum feeling I got has gone. Some things still worry me, and they're pretty much neatly collected in my entry post, but she wasn't sitting on the fence nearly as much as I remembered day 2. Nevertheless, I would not oppose her execution

Smashy: Dead Riki has struck me as scummy on a reread of his posts. His very first post is a sit back and snipe type that leaves me with a bad taste. His reign as king almost killed the game and his replacement's choice did not inspire me with confidence. I would like him executed.

Going to reread Zindaras, Mnowax and MoS

[Shanba]

Shanba, you're confusing everyone by trying to say that Shanba-king and DR-king had the same exact style.

Only once did I refer to DR. SV pointed that out. Now don't go confusing everyone by trying to use my references to Smashy along with it.

I'll assume you mean Smashy when you say Shanba. In which case, as Smashy and Dead Rikimaru are playing the same role, should Smashy not be judged according to the actions of both. And actually, it was DR you said did a fine job as king, so that goes out the window too.
This is worrying me, I was thinking you were town not so long ago. Now I'm not so sure.

[Shanba]

Just a sec, I don't have my notes on this PC, I'll have to do a quick re-read. If I remember correctly, however, you've been unafraid to voice your opinion and push the issue when a scum player might have tried to avoid the spotlight until it was turned on him (much as Pooky did). You've evaded the issue here though, that is, that you've just flatly contradicted yourself.

[Shanba]

Right. That was a fairly quick re-read, but what I've gathered is that your stances on various players has been consistent (I can go and find examples of that if you wish) and where your opinions have changed I can see the logic and the thought process behind it. While there have been one or two off-vibes from you, the overall feel I get is town: which is why I haven't voted for you yet.

[Shanba]

Meh, nevermind re-reading Zindaras. I can do that later

MoS: Picked up a lot of flak for his playstyle this game. I thought he was prob scum before I re-read him, now I'm leaning neutral. I think I need to read his posts in context, which means rereading the thread (again). In my first post, now I reread it, my suspicions of him are fairly unjustified. I think killing him would be an easy way out for a scum king.
Mnowax: CTD was not the most contributive, and was fairly off on suspicions. Mnowax is giving me a bad vibe.

vote Mnowax

[Shanba]

go ahead kill me now. It will just allow scum to win with ease.

vote: anyone who thinks that i have no legit point.

Horribly scummy post

The change from this:

this game has a lot of people that are replacejing. this day might not need to last longer, but give some of these people time. only scum would benefit from lynching right now.

To this:

Vote: dead rikku

kill anyone!

and from this:

MoS (shameless wagoning by me)

Vote: Smashy ( i thought Dead was scum, sorry) MoS ( i dunno gut i guess ) and Toaster Strudel (i like pop tarts biatch!)

to this:
*actually, I'm not going to quote his accusation of MoS. It's his biggest post though, shouldn't be too hard to find*
with one post in between.
I do believe I just stated that MoS would be an easy copout for a scum king: well, the same principle holds true here. Pressured to give some content, he digs up Yosarian's attack on MoS, then FoS's everyone who says he hasn't got a legit point. It is such an opportunistic attack it makes me cringe.

However, you seem to be saying he's like that in all his games. I really hope not, we've already got Fritzler in here to be completely unreadable.

[Shanba]

Geh. I feel like I'm not keeping up with this at all: I was already voting Mnowax.
In fact:

Unvote all

Vote: Smashy, Mnowax

FoS: Zindaras, VitR

That's more where my thoughts are now. Zindaras is only a FoS because I need to reread him and VitR is there because while I found Phoebus scummy I think he needs more time to get into the game. My other votes are already explained.

[Shanba]

Hey Yos: we've all given our thoughts and suspicions now, it's your turn. Why are these players in particular on the execution list? It would be useful to have in black and white your thoughts on each of the players for later reference when we know some more alignments

[Shanba]

Smashy hasn't posted since they day started: could he be prodded please?

Just to pick at a few people:
Kscope: It's fairly clear why you want Smashy lynched, but why are MoS and SV hammer possibilities while VitaminR a no hammer (especially considering you called Phoebus poss scum earlier)? I couldn't see any thoughts about either MoS or SV in your earlier posts (except one where you say you don't think MoS is scum).

ThAdmiral: Has said basically nothing. Maybe you could outline some suspicions for us? Especially considering you replaced Olio, a player I found relatively suspicious. I don't like the way he's posting one liner off topic stuff.

PetroleumJelly:

But I'll update this after I read their posts in particular - my opinions could change at that time, and I will give reasons for my positions. I will probably also take a look into both mnowax and Zindaras, since they each have 5 votes and give my opinions on then. After that, I will try to get back my reads on the other players in the game, though that could take a while considering my gameload elsewhere on the site.

Status report?

[Shanba]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]

I hope that answers your question [/quote]

Yes, it does. Thank you.

[Shanba]

Right, so I'm going to try another tack:
CDB/SC/Olio/ThAdmiral:
CDB starts out the game very much following the crowd: He votes Mert and Cbox, and indicates suspicions of MoS, using a quote from Yos2 to do so. He then is replaced by
SC posts a bunch of non-content post. His only content is a post where he lurker hunts attacks people for not posting content. He does attack Pooky however, which is one point in his favour. He is replaced by
Olio who gives me the best feeling of any playing this role so far. He immediately posts content and gives some stances. He attacks Pablito, who I feel is pro-town, and also Luckayluck, an opportunistic vote if I ever saw one. He also votes me (or my predecessor), who is incredibly pro-town (:P). Not a great track record. Then he adds MoS and SV to his suspicions, the bogeymen (and women) of the moment. To his credit, he does drop his suspicions of MoS. Next comes his blatant following of RafK on the Yos2 issue: RafK's argument was rubbish, Olio's following was downright scummy. He finally advocates the mistarget of Luckayluck and asks to be replaced. Which brings me to
ThAdmiral: Who has posted very little content at all, doing the bare minimum to be avoided being called out by the king by posting his thoughts on the LoE and a few one liners saying he thinks people are scum/aren't scum

Vote ThAdmiral

Asking him didn't work. Maybe this will. Post please, ThAdmiral. I want to hear from you.

[Shanba]

I don't like the way he's posting one liner off topic stuff.

Well too freakin' bad!

Your attack on my predecessors relies too much on the fact that those so-called pro-town players that they attacked are indeed town - if they happen to turn up scum I guess they would have to be fantastic scum-catchers, right? Seeing what no-one else saw, etc.
I guess my apparent lack of a strong stance is because I just recently joined the game and don't really have super-strong feelings on anyone. I've got my suspicions but I've already announced them.

See, that wasn't the only point of my argument. I don't likle the way you and your predecessors have played with a mixture of apathy, lurking and opportunistic votes. Luckayluck was an opportunistic vote on a town. Pablito, Fritz and MoS were opportunistic votes. Players who had been getting a lot of attention for their playstyles, and not necessarily anything scummy. Also, I was worried that that tendency to lurk apathetically was coming through in your one liners.

Finally, You may have announced suspicions, but you've barely justified them.

[Shanba]

Do you think I got a message from the guy I replaced (can't remember his name) telling me to lurk and seem apathetic? Cause I didn't.
I can't explain the actions of my predecessors. They did what they did.

What sort of question is that? Of course I don't think so. When one person lurks, is opportunistic and apathetic, you can put it down to playstyle, real life issues, boredom, etc. However, when

4

people playing the same role act that way, alarm bells start ringing.

I know you can't explain the actions of your predecessors, however that doesn't mean I can't pressure you for them. Hypothetically, if someone were to act incredibly scummy, hammer claimed cops, and then have to be replaced, his replacement would still be accountable for his actions.

[Shanba]

ThAdmiral: Alright then, let's hear some opinions from you beyond the scope of posting about the LoE.

Geh. Is it normal for people not to post in over a week?
Zindaras- last post March 22
Lowell- Last post March 22
Fritzler- Last post March 23

It's somewhat frustrating now. Especially as Zindaras was going to be the next one I perssure.

[Shanba]

Well, your under major suspicion atm because of your predecessor's reigns day 3. If there was any one thing for you to address, it would be that about now.

[Shanba]

Yeah, you'd best reread Dead rikimaru too, who Smashy replaced

[Shanba]

MoS: Battle Mage is Smashy's replacement (so yes, if Smashy turned up scum I would be wary of Battle Mage too.)

[Shanba]

I'd like to win a large game some day...

[Shanba]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]BTW, if Skruffs read this: Might explain why you decided Rikku needed to be king. I was amazed.[/quote]
It was actually nightfall who made dead rikimaru king. Skruffs replaced me a full two days after Riki was king.

[Shanba]

On a side note, I tihnk this was the last game still running since I joined mafiascum. That's kinda an odd feeling.

[Shanba]

Oh no, there's still Royal Family Mafia.

[Shanba]

When town were kings, they correctly executed 3/4 times.

[Shanba]

Future kingmaker games should have deadlines. Also, a sysytem like Consulmaker needs to be used more often.

[Shanba]

By deadlines, I mean strict deadlines. DR was able to spin out his reign for an insane period of time.

[Shanba]

However, if someone attempts to execute you and your role as Hero is proven, you may no longer be chosen as King. You win when all the assassins are executed.

[Shanba]

Any game has the potential to be stalled. In kingmaker, however, scum have the huge benefit of being able to effectively stop the game in it's tracks on their own. Also, the setup means that confirmed innocents (and thus many normal power roles) are imbalanced for the scum. This leads to a mountainous setup, which is dull for the town and means that fewer scum are needed. As such, kingmaker needs a new set of roles. Off the top f my head:

Usurper (town or scum): once per game can steal the kingship (could be during day, could be during night.)

Jailkeeper is nigh perfect for the setup, as it is a way to stop kills without confirming a player's alignment

Democrat: Can abolish the monarchy for a day

And so on.

[Shanba]

Mulling it over, there's also the double whammy that the mountainous setup combined with the lack of impact of the town contributes to a lack of emotional attachment to the game.

[Shanba]

However, if someone attempts to execute you and your role as Hero is proven, you may no longer be chosen as King. You win when all the assassins are executed.

i.e, fritz couldn't become king ^^

[Shanba]

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

Dear MOS,

You are the Kingmaker. A protown player will never actually execute you, since you can claim Kingmaker.

QFT. It occurred to me about halfway through the second day I was king that I could whatever the hell I liked.