A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Garruk Relentless]

Because we're us:

Vote: Garruk Relentless

Oh wait. Not this game. See, in this game, we're cursed and take 2 less than the majority to be lynched. So, instead.

Unvote

[Garruk Relentless]

Nah. Our RVS vote will go to

Vote: GoatonaRaft

because rafts kill people.

[Garruk Relentless]

i wasnt asking for an rvs vote.

Yes, but that's what our vote was. Was your vote not?

Because we're us:

Vote: Garruk Relentless

Oh wait. Not this game. See, in this game, we're cursed and take 2 less than the majority to be lynched. So, instead.

Unvote

so you take 11 to lynch

and yet this scares you away from voting yourself?

vote Garruk

Those RVS wagons pile up fast. It can be hard to unvote during a fast-paced wagon. And it would just be sad to be part of your own demise, now wouldn't it?

[Garruk Relentless]

i wasnt asking for an rvs vote.

Yes, but that's what our vote was. Was your vote not?

should be pretty obvious that is the case.

Right. You and your elaboration problems. But could you explain what it was about PnJ's post that struck you as scum?

[Garruk Relentless]

We're not gonna sign probably. SSK and I have different enough voices though that it shouldn't be too hard to discern us though. Example: the other posts in this thread are all SSK. I sometimes refer to myself as a friendly wolf token, too.

[Garruk Relentless]

I liked Hurricane Hodor better :/

(You should watch the movie. You'll change your mind, promise.)

Also, would you judge me if I said kanye made me swoon?

Unvote, vote: PrideAndJoy

---

@Benmage:

Hope all goes well with your family, man.

Are you just voting for PnJ because Kanye is?

[Garruk Relentless]

Are you just voting for PnJ because Kanye is?

No.

Mind explaining the vote then?

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm usually really good at getting early (like, by page 5, accurate) townreads. But I'm not getting like, any yet.
This is disconcerting.

Why mention townreads early?

[Garruk Relentless]

We're not gonna sign probably. SSK and I have different enough voices though that it shouldn't be too hard to discern us though. Example: the other posts in this thread are all SSK. I sometimes refer to myself as a friendly wolf token, too.

I cannot tell the difference between posters in virtually any hydra because I am not very observant. As such, I would like to request that everyone sign.

I, SSK, will sign for Garruk's posts so that people can tell the difference. But so far Natirasha's post where he mentioned he was himself has been the only post in this thread where it's been him.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm usually really good at getting early (like, by page 5, accurate) townreads. But I'm not getting like, any yet.
This is disconcerting.

Why mention townreads early?

RVS+early game post townreads are my thing. To a lesser extent I've read people as scum accurately from their first 3-5 posts in a game before as well.
But this game is an exception in that I'm getting a lot of not understanding motivations for a lot of actions, and it's screwing with my early reads. I like my early reads, I felt it noteworthy to mention.

Pedit: If it's not an obvious dan post, it's a chesskid post on this one.

So you wouldn't want to publically acknowledge any of them, right?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm usually really good at getting early (like, by page 5, accurate) townreads. But I'm not getting like, any yet.
This is disconcerting.

Why mention townreads early?

RVS+early game post townreads are my thing. To a lesser extent I've read people as scum accurately from their first 3-5 posts in a game before as well.
But this game is an exception in that I'm getting a lot of not understanding motivations for a lot of actions, and it's screwing with my early reads. I like my early reads, I felt it noteworthy to mention.

Pedit: If it's not an obvious dan post, it's a chesskid post on this one.

So you wouldn't want to publically acknowledge any of them, right?

-SSK

I usually don't have an issue with having open reads. If I had any solid reads one way or another, I wouldn't have any issue sharing them, no.

But if you point out an easy town member early in the game, not only will it have an impact as a foundation for all reads, but it will also make them an easy target for scum?

hes trying to setup to scumread me and push the wagon away from him. dont mind him.

I'm not scumreading you. I'm just not townreading you, when based on post 10 I was expecting to quickly form a nice solid townread there.

Are reads that early often accurate for you? (If so, I'm impressed)

Townreads yes
scumreads no

Aren't the mutually exclusive?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

If you're not able to differentiate hydra members due to writing/playstyle, they are able to fake who wrote each post if they are called out for inconsistency and whatnot. Signing is pointless; if differentiating people is important for you, go read their completed games to see how they write.

As for your "no [hydra] else gets a pass" on signing, bah. Get better at recognizing writers, then you don't need signatures and can try and figure out if they are impersonating each other. It's fun.

Empire, you should probably sheep me.

Hey PrideandJoy--less general theory talk, says the hypocrite. Play

this

game. Seems a bit silly to be worried about not having good Townreads by page 2-3. (I'm Town. There, that's one.)

Tierce, why so aggressive?

No, not really. There's always obvtown. There's always the worry of protective roles. It's also always nice to have obvtown.


Not at all. If I'm townreading someone early they're 95%+ likely to be town
if I'm scumreading someone early they're only say 50%+ to be scum
so one is a lot more useful than the other

Pedit: If you're town show it, Tierce, don't come in with a weak chainsaw

Fair enough.

Are you scum?

No.

=SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

VOTE: Andrius

No godless man may sit the seastone chair.

Why randomly vote? It's page 4 now. There's enough content to be able to vote a player now.

Speaking of which,

Vote: Kanye

. Pushing too aggressively for a wagon that no one has explained and is ultimately fruitless in discussion. And he needs to explain things.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Are you just voting for PnJ because Kanye is?

No.

Mind explaining the vote then?

Why didn't you pose this line of questioning to me?

Felt too close to RVS so I was just assuming it was a random join in. Do you have an explanation for your vote? Because this wagon is a mystery to me.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Natirasha please sit SSK aside for a moment and explain why scummy posts are something you don't want to be doing. It's distracting me with all the

ooooo shiny

when I am pretty damn content with my vote.

Mind explaining what was wrong with my post Tierce?

[Garruk Relentless]

Natirasha please sit SSK aside for a moment and explain why scummy posts are something you don't want to be doing. It's distracting me with all the

ooooo shiny

when I am pretty damn content with my vote.

Mind explaining what was wrong with my post Tierce?
-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Hi Tierce! You're talking to the other guy right now.

So, one of bigger playstyle differences between SSK and I is that he likes to vote fast and early day one. I, as I'm sure you're aware, like to sit on my vote until as late as possible. As a hydra is an aggregate of two people, we're compromising by mostly using our vote as a sort of threat right now.

Keeping this in mind, we are in agreeance on Kanye right now. If you remember from PxP, kanye and I had a little shit-fit. Kanye has this tendency to push stupid wagons for no apparent reason and I don't like it. That being said, we are completely willing to vote either way if someone could give us a compelling case why I should follow kanye from literally page one. In regards to Chesskid/AD, SSK & I have been reading them as town throughout these pages, which makes the wagon dumber in my eyes at least.

I agree with you that it is early, though, and the RVS thing was a misnomer.

[Garruk Relentless]

See, I actually LIKE this random wagon.

VOTE: Eleeheathen

[Garruk Relentless]

I liked the flavor reasoning behind the elle wagon. I guess calling it a random wagon is a bit of a misnomer, sure, but the "wight" slip seemed genuine to me. I know faraday assigned roles before alignments, but wights is a perfectly fine scum flavoring--they are in direct opposition to the Realm, and as a sort of zombie-analogue, anyone can really be one, IIRC.

[Garruk Relentless]

Ugh. I can't even explain why that answer bothers me in a way that makes me sound sane. It sounds perfectly reasonable and innocent. Maybe it's because 'I liked the flavor reasoning' makes me want to punch something. I don't think the flavor argument was there when you made that vote, unless PrideAndCHESSKID highlighting the word WIGHT was a code word?

SSK here. Nat's really big on flavor analysis. Upon seeing wight and in addition chesskid bringing it up, it sparked interest in the wagon. I totally agree with this vote, for what it's worth.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hey, Amrun, you're misrepping us a little--we did random vote Goat on a Raft like three posts later. And you can hardly expect us to not be a bit self-vote shy when we have a super-hated modifier.

[Garruk Relentless]

Andrius, blink twice if you have a post restriction.

Ooba, could you elaborate on your reads?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Ooba, could you elaborate on your reads?

-SSK

I can't elaborate on any reads - that's my post restriction!

But you can obviously quote people, so could you quote what parts of posts give you reads on those players?

[Garruk Relentless]

Ooba, could you elaborate on your reads?

-SSK

I can't elaborate on any reads - that's my post restriction!

But you can obviously quote people, so could you quote what parts of posts give you reads on those players?
-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

And I suppose I should clarify;

I'm only a Miller insomuch as I show up as guilty (or the equivalent used for this game) in regular cop investigations.
That means people who are not "regular cops" could still check me and I'll be town.
So, y'know, I'm an Innocent Child effect basically.

This post comes off as genuine, and when considering our own restriction, we believe Thor about his miller claim.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

I think you got your games mixed up there Nacho/Elli.

[Garruk Relentless]

(I'm flying solo tonight--SSK told me to take the reigns tonight)

Garruk Relentless, do you still think your vote is in the right place?

At the moment, yes probably. She hasn't redeemed herself in our eyes at all--I mean, the only relevant action has been outing Thor's name, which is like, null at best, but anti-town at worst. If I were the speculating type, I'd be speculating that elle is part of the mafia and they know they have a traitor out there.

So, first off, we are in agreement that Andrius is like 90% faking his post restriction--mostly due to the smilies. I know I wouldn't allow such a loophole as a mod.

We don't really like Quadz either, but that's more gut than anything.

Amrun is our other big scum read at the moment--I don't like really anything she's posted, but likewise, I (personally) always think that about Amrun, so I'm shelving it for now.

Also, people were jumping to claim it being a scum slip that the scum team were made up of wights, which is impossible. Faraday picks roles first in upicks. Then he picks alignments. A wight could be town, while Rob Stark could be scum.

Correct me if I'm wrong--it's been a year or two since I read the novels last--but the wights are essentially zombies, no? Is there not a point where Jon kills a dude and he literally comes back as a wight minutes later? The point being that "Wights" is perfect scum flavor in a UPick game--they look like their character's likeness simply because they are literally them, just frozen-zombie them.

Anyway, I don't buy that the mods would have informed the miller about the presence of non-standard cops, so Thor's miller claim looks bogus,
- I'm a miller, but you could still investigate me as town.

Gonna pre-empt Thor a little here and state when I have a role like miller, I always make sure to get the exact terms what my downside entails. For example, a question I would ask if I was a miller would be "if I was tracked, how would the track appear in relation to my miller downside?"

[Garruk Relentless]

Gonna pre-empt Thor a little here and state when I have a role like miller, I always make sure to get the exact terms what my downside entails. For example, a question I would ask if I was a miller would be "if I was tracked, how would the track appear in relation to my miller downside?"

So you think that Thor had a conversation with the mods, and during that they revealed additional setup information?

We're looking at this through two separate lenses here.

If I asked the question I posed in my last post to a mod, and they answered "You would appear normally", would you consider that "revealing additional setup information"? Because that's how I read Thor's statement.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hey Benmage, both SSK and I have older join dates than you. Can we call you a shit?

In any case, I don't think this thor discussion is really going to go anywhere--if he's scum, I will believe he's scum due to his actions. In any case, Thor responded in approximately the same way I would have to being a miller and Benmage's inquisition.

I still am keeping an eye on Elle, but UNVOTE: for the moment. I'm not exactly sure where SSK wants to head at the moment and it might ultimately be back onto the Elleheathen wagon, but we missed each other due to the crash yesterday and are unlikely to get a chance to speak for a day or two.

[Garruk Relentless]

Now, now, Syr, its poor show to reuse gifs.

And I swear you're trolling me with that -c.

[Garruk Relentless]

Natirasha: Lokyana? This is my god now?
SSK: What does that even mean Nat?
Natirasha: Careful, he might kill me.
SSK: What?

<A fictionalization of our hydra discussions>

[Garruk Relentless]

Especially when I do this:

VOTE: Thor

I don't think Thor is scum.

-f

Why not?

Why do you think he is scum?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

VOTE: Cephrir

I'm sheeping you, SyrGod. Im going to defer to you when SSK asks me why were lynching Ceph though, k?

BTW I have Alfred and Cephrir as like completely null at the moment. Don't do anything scummy, or I might actually go all tempo on your ass Syryana.

[Garruk Relentless]

Working on it! can only dayvig one guy at a time...and I need 12 other people to help!

[Garruk Relentless]

I gotta say, you got a bit more fire in you than most games of yours ive seen, nacho. I'm not sure what to make of this.

[Garruk Relentless]

Alright, so what happens if you get the fabled last town read? You go through the other half of the player list?

Props to Elle for using dice, I too subscribe to the theory dice are always right. Still wrong on Thor, though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Wow, this game is just like the last one.

Lot's of filler posts, egos and meta-gashing . Oh what fun day one. Anyway, yay, caught up on 30+ pages in 2.5 days. \o/

Reads list, mostly gut based and leanings at this stage but it's a start to work with.

Vote: Garruk Relentless

Any particular reason why you voted us though? Or is it all just "gut" after 35 pages of content?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Hey, SyrGod, the Powers That Be(and/or less wagon-happy people this hydra) have cautioned me to not follow your wagon, so I'm not. Consider this as emphatic support.

I apologize for my/our "lack of scumhunting", this game has kinda been boring me--the content in this game is kinda dense, which intimidates me. Lots of unfamiliar faces too. If it can help you guys, I can give a 'reads' list like others if it's wished, but meh.

[Garruk Relentless]

Kanye,

yep

You should explain this.

I swear to God Kanye. This shouldn't be so difficult.

Kanye only explains things when he feels its necessary. He never seems to explain when asked.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Well, it's just as unsubstantial as the other vote. Here you go, SyrGod.

VOTE: SafetyDance.

This game is still annoying me, I am collecting quite a few town reads from people, but I am having trouble finding scumreads. And all the wordswordswords are boring. I feel like it's 2008 all over again in this game.

[Garruk Relentless]

Tierce is pretty town from our view. Wish she and SyrGod would kiss and make up.

PnJ's absence is starting to tickle me. I understand life happens, but even before that they completely fell off the map like a week or so ago. I dunno, it's very suspicious for chesskid--he's usually much more active.

I'm sorry, Despy, but that vote wasn't even my worst vote in the thread.

I don't hate an ooba lynch, I guess, but whenever I read his interactions all I can muster the emotion for is a half-hearted shrug.

[Garruk Relentless]

SyrGod's fun. I trust his judgment more than most at the moment, not least of all because he's one of the few familiar faces I have in this game. He also addressed me specifically--I stop paying attention when the game's tempo goes into protracted wall-wars. SSK keeps asking me why I'm sheeping him too, if you care. If it means anything, I actually disagree with SyrGod's meta analysis of you from Hard Boiled--this is completely in tune with your tone and matches up in verbage from that game.

I agree on PnJ or something--but even in the lead up to chess's vla call, they hadn't done anything since, like, page ten-twelve. Real Life takes precedence, yadda yadda. Mostly, my last post was actually trying to start some conversation at a pace I prefer.

As I mentioned earlier, I must be missing something because I can chalk up a grand total of half a scum read(Amrun) and I'm pretty convinced of a large group's innocence(Cephrir, Tierce, Syryana, Tammy, Thor, Nautilus).

At least someone is paying attention to me. -.-

[Garruk Relentless]

@Garruk - If Amrun is your only scum read...why no vote on her? I'm here and alone.

Here's the thing, I always read Amrun as scum--as a player she's just super inconsistent, although I am reading her more scum than I usually do. That's why I qualify it as "half a scum read". Also, that who sheeping Syryana thing.

I'm neutral on the Ooba push.

Agree.

The Shadoweh push is bad.

I'm neutral-town on them, I agree it's a dumb wagon though.

[Garruk Relentless]

no seriously can someone tell me why my posts keep throwing shit i pressed quote on like 5 posts ago into my quick replys

Do you think Ceph is town?
WOuld you support a push on him? Why/why not?

Yes, Cephrir is one of my stronger reads for reasons I described on my last post. I do not support a push on him, I voted him earlier mostly because of the whole sheeping SyrGod thing. For what its worth, I really need to get together with SSK today so we can hash together a real gameplan on how to proceed(ie, I don't think SSK shares the same sentiment as I towards Cephrir or SyrGod).

I forgot to mention that Benmage-Thor is probably just T-T and they need to get over themselves at some point.

[Garruk Relentless]

@Garruk - so...basically one head has him as strong town and the other as some degree of scum?

It's more like one head is reading him as strong town and the other I have no idea what thinks, but it's definitely not strong town. SSK and I have been running on very different wavelengths this game.

Also, in case you missed it, I've been over the Benmage thing for some time - but unlike some players I don't think the way to deal with disagreement is to refuse to interact. Besides, since I'm sure I'm right I can slowly grind him into dust and sneer at him later. I don't think you actually are reading the exchange, and your take on it feels incredibly superficial and lacking any actual reasoning behind it - feels faked...why is that?

I applaud taking the accusations and not ignoring them(a trait that is rarely found today), my implication was more that there is a point of diminishing returns and both of you have continued on with your discussion regardless. I don't deny that I am not reading the exchange at this point--it's plainly obvious that you two haven't really gotten anywhere and the amount of effort both have put into the argument is a clear indicator of town-town interactions in my book.

[Garruk Relentless]

FINALLY got to hash stuff out with SSK last night. He said he'd post later today, so I'll just do some cliff notes at the moment.

-SSK doesn't like ooba, feels he's only putting up the illusion of scumhunting. I'm completely neutral on the push still(which is why our vote isn't there right now).
-I didn't like macmollie in Castle and I don't like her here, I think it's a matter of personality/style clashing, though, so I'm defering to SSK for now. SSK has a VERY slight scum leaning on her, due to her heavy push on someone who we consider one of the strongest townreads.
-We are in agreeance that Cephrir is town. Nothing special here, we just like his posting.
-Goat on a Raft we both are leaning town, but when examining further, we couldn't find any particular reason to think that way.
-We're hashing out kanye...we both think he's town, in actuality, but kanye's a shrewd customer and as such we're being more careful with him that usual. SSK posted a metadive of kanye-games in our QT, but I'm not going through them any time in the near future, I don't know if SSK wants to either.
-For the love of god, thor is sending the Town Beams down our eyes and if he's scum, I'll eat my shoe.

[Garruk Relentless]

Thats easy. Thor is not someone i want lynched today. SafetyDance either.

unvote. Vote: Garruk

Those of you who think im town and are on single vote wagons would do well to consolidate.

See, this is my problem with you. You don't give full explanations on votes. And with this vote all you said was that we were scum. In 56 pages, you should have more reasons. For all of your votes.

Unvote, vote Ooba

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Alright, so, yeah, ooba's pretty fucking scum now.

I'm going to pull out my inner fferylit here(sorry SyrGod!) and point out his, well, bizarre as fuck trajectory on us.

Spoiler: Spoiler because Quote Walls

Mild scum read
Garruk Relentless
Cephrir
Amrun
Shadoweh

His opening post, we're just mild scum.

I don't feel as strongly about Cephrir and Garruk Relentless as the above.

Apparently we do stuff to make him think we're more townie, okay.

- This is a misrep that makes it sound like I never mentioned scumreads before this - kanye and Shadow were also mentioned in the "initial readslist" (although Cephrir and Garruk reduced on the scummy meter in the few pages in between)

Confirmation that we(along with cephrir--who ooba has a similar trajectory with) are less scummy in his eyes than others.

Neutral-
Tierce
MessiahComplex
Alfred's {I didnt like the list in 935}
Garruk {Earlier vibe + Sheeping Syr isn't bad, but two sole posts stating just that rubbed me off as scummy}

You're not - You're a "Neutral-" meaning "leaning scum".

His infamous "reads" post. Doesn't like us sheeping Syr. Sure, why not.

Garruks scum.

unvote. Vote: Garruk

Okay. Without us doing anything, we're now confscum.

I wanna point this out too.

Not as strong scum
Quadz {Earlier vibe + Don't like any of the no.2 suspects - Amrun, Goat or Zed}

This was below us on his 'reads' list. And his last mention of Quadz. Without any indication that his reads have changed, we've apparently become ObvScum while Quadz...isn't?

What I think is going on here is that ooba is trying to redirect attention from himself to another person who is hanging around the bottom of everyone's lists--let's face it, we've been coasting quite a bit this game(although this also partially because people ignore us whenever we try to talk to people) and we are lurking in the "I dunno, could be scum" part of everyone's lists. We are an easy target for scum trying to redirect--which is what I think ooba is doing here.

[Garruk Relentless]

Yeah, she's pretty scummy. I think I've said as much. But, likewise, I always read Amrun as scum and am not confident in my read, so I defer to SSK for now.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hi! Just acknowledging that I saw the formerfish case. However, I am going to sleep, will respond to it tonight. Maybe. I might just dick around in FTL again
In any case, I am hopefully leaving you in the competent hands of my comrade, Relentless(see, get it? I'm the Veil Cursed!).

[Garruk Relentless]

I feel like you jumped on a slip that wasn't a slip, acknowledged how the concept is fully possible and would even make a hell of a lot of sense. Your slot views one of our agreed upon reads as scummy. Repeatedly mentioned your role restriction. And your votes have been garbage and it doesn't seem like a single one of them is a vote that you actually believe in.

So, let's break this down.

I feel like you jumped on a slip that wasn't a slip, acknowledged how the concept is fully possible and would even make a hell of a lot of sense.

See, the disconnect here is assuming you assume I had thought about the flavoring of the scumteam. I admit, I usually worry about flavor stuff like that, but in this particular game there were enough possible scum factions that I was not particularly interested in flavor specing. The statement elle made came off as weird to me--mostly because of the wight thing--it just seemed more natural to say "scum" there. I dunno.

Your slot views one of our agreed upon reads as scummy.

I'd like to say that this is one of those classic scum arguments, or just bad reasoning at this point in the game--especially on d1 not everyone is going to agree with your reads. That said, I think you're ultimately town, though. Yes, I know that we used the same reasoning in this very thread. No, that doesn't mean our reasoning was any better than yours.

Repeatedly mentioned your role restriction.

Perhaps we ultimately repeated it too much.

And your votes have been garbage and it doesn't seem like a single one of them is a vote that you actually believe in.

Truth. Part of it is our hydra dissonance. Part of it is my complete lack of presence. Part of it is my disillusionment with day ones. Part of it is the fucking quote walls.

also, this part made me laugh.

If he were that fearful why even self-vote in the first place.

If we're not lynching ooba, I'd like to move to SafetyDance.

[Garruk Relentless]

VOTE: SafetyDance

[Garruk Relentless]

I'd move back to ooba in a heartbeat.

I think the SD claim is legit. And town via modwifom.

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to lynch anyone at this point, though. Time is running out.

[Garruk Relentless]

My thoughts on the Thor case.
A: Null tell. Millers should always claim D1 in my book.
B: Null tell if no one has claimed miller lately.
C: He played the charade a bit long, but I would have been just a sarcastic towards asking for more claim details, especially towards the people who were doing it.
D: A fair point.
E: Didn't read, can't make judgment.
F: This is a legit point.

Mostly, you forgot G.
G. It's 18 hours til deadline and no lynch is useless.

Still holding out for ooba, but I'll switch before bed if it doesn't get any traction.

[Garruk Relentless]

Bah, VOTE: Thor.

[Garruk Relentless]

Wth. Why is there a wagon on us? Why has only Thor provided a reason for his vote on the wagon?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Hi Desp! Revenge for Castle Mafia(this is a joke, Desperado saw through our cunning scum visage and knew we were town!)?

Thor, you stop being a lackwit. I deliberately said that my vote was on you solely due to the fact lynch>no lynch. Move your ass over to the ooba wagon again and let's get him lynched!

[Garruk Relentless]

As of right now, there are six players alive who do not have the town wincon.

For people who are better than me at setup spec, what does this mean for multiball vs. single scum team?

Either a stacked scumteam or 5scum+third party.

In either case, if it's legit, it strongly suggests no multiball.

[Garruk Relentless]

The lack of deaths last night is worrisome to me. I haven't figured out how to parse it yet--I need to see today's end first before I can start setup speccing in full.

And, Tammy, I have strong reason to suspect that Tierce is town. Don't want to go into more detail at the moment, but, yeah. I refuse to support that lynch today.

Good with both Amrun and Ooba though.

[Garruk Relentless]

With having no deaths last night though, do you think it's likely to be more than one though?

We can think of plenty enough possible variables for that to be plausible.

There's one thing I'm toying with but not sure if it makes sense yet. Have to see how today goes.

I think we're on the same wavelength here.

[Garruk Relentless]

@ Garruk: It's D2. Drop some towntells so I can decide if I need to tell Fish to back off or not.

Working on it.

Thanks for pointiing out Syryana's absence, though, I missed that(I thought it was just a globally announced commute)...let's see Alchemist's entrance to the thread before making judgments though, although I'm forming some spec already.

PEdit: I was on Thor only for Deadline reasons, Desp. Go reread my posts at the end of the day and I distinctly said I wanted to lynch ooba.

[Garruk Relentless]

Why Amrun though?

- Des

Amrun is the lesser of the two, but I've had a gut scum read on her since the beginning of the game(I've mentioned this as well). As well, the faces on the Amrun train engender more hope to me than the faces on ooba at the moment. I know Amrun-scum lurks a lot more than town-Amrun, and, well, she's lurking hard this game(V/LA excuse time has run out).

@Tierce: Once, only.

[Garruk Relentless]

He didn't, he sent it to Messiah_Complex, not us.

[Garruk Relentless]

Why Amrun though?

- Des

Amrun is the lesser of the two, but I've had a gut scum read on her since the beginning of the game(I've mentioned this as well). As well, the faces on the Amrun train engender more hope to me than the faces on ooba at the moment. I know Amrun-scum lurks a lot more than town-Amrun, and, well, she's lurking hard this game(V/LA excuse time has run out).

@Tierce: Once, only.

Do your homework. Life is eating me up and spitting me out right now, and it's felt in every game -- modded games, all played games. It's completely alignment irrelevant. It's unfortunate, and it sucks, and it SHOULD be set to improve here after I am not sick anymore. My back is finally doing pretty good but I have a fever and have been awake roughly 4 collective hours today. That's not important; what's important is that this post is scummy.

This is a lazy push that feels like an under-the-cuff attempt to discredit the flash wagon on you yesterday where kanye is irreproachable.

It was a simple misunderstanding. We didn't realize that you were in that bad of condition. However, in normal cases, this type of lurking would be scummy. Unlike a misunderstanding of personal circumstances that we couldn't have known.
And yes the flashwagon against us yesterday was largely unsubstantiated, but we've already addressed that yesterday.

I am not as comfy as the rest of you people are with goat people's claim. it could very easily be a fake claim and by all means I don't think he should be allowed to skate. their start of the day post "oh I need to fleeeeeeps" kind of sounded like a bit like reverse cheerleading but not quite. hhhmmm....

who was it that said that displaced did not look scummy was it alfred

sd, syrlacious was kidnapped/silenced/abducted by aliens or something I am leaning probably town

VOTE: garruck

What a crap post. Macmollie covers everything but why they voted us and then they vote us. Without any reason behind it. Nonetheless where macmollie does explain things, there's no decisive decisions whatsoever. Make up your mind and explain yourself.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Elle is still on our suspect lists, but, truthfully, Elle jumped into that whole Thor/Benmage/whatever mess and I lost track(if you missed the implications yesterday that we weren't really reading their posts, at the very least I wasn't). We did briefly talk about her in our discussion, but it was just a little blip(we actually went down the whole player list, but didn't have much to say for most) and I figured our stance was already established.

In a word, you can call our read on her decayed. I still find the wight slip suspect, but have decided to shelve it until further evidence exists. On a tangential note, I do like Elle's entrance today.

As a side-note, were going to be a bit more active today hopefully. The whole Thor/Benmage/macmollie thing yesterday got me in a slump and both heads here agreed to lurk it out. At this exact moment, I'm doing what I do best--parsing flavor and setup info. I skipped the miller conversation yesterday because I thought Thor was town and I attribute Faraday enough skill to try to WIFOM his setups, but now I have actual puzzle pieces to work with(and will have one more important one after the lynch).

A curious note: you phrased that post oddly, ooba...hmm...I need to relook at this game with a blank slate.

[Garruk Relentless]

So, a fun fact about when i joined this game. I asked a certain player why they weren't /inning. They told me "Pirate Mollie and Amrun". Fate has a strange way of cursing oneself sometimes.

Anyways, I'm mostly ignoring Amrun's post--she hasn't had an independent thought all game(her entire post is a proxy of Mollie's) and is doing her usual "everyone who votes for me is wrong about everything while I blatantly misrepresent people the same way" crusade. i find it especially curious that she thinks were voting her when we are doing nothing of the short.

First, Cephrir, since of the three people who responded, he's the one I actually have some amount of respect for. While I am suspicious of elleheathen at the moment, I'm not scum reading her per say. As I said, the read has decayed.

Now, Mollie. First, by Thor/be mage/macmollie clusterfuck I mean all that discussion and boring posting. Second, to categorize elleheathen as our "strongest scum read" by the end of the day is ridiculous--i think we stated we were fully behind the Ooba wagon numerous times and I distinctly said that our read on Elle had decayed. Third, to say we have no reads is patently false. Both yesterday and today I have outlined what wagons we liked and disliked, and if you think trying to reread the thread with an open mind is somehow scummy, then you are truly a fool and I no longer wish to discourse with you.

On PnJ, I expect some amount of content from them today. I had a fairly strong town read on them mid-yesterday, but the complete falling off the map is worrisome, although understandable considering we did the same thing.

(If this post seems angry, its because it is--this is the edited version no less)
(And so were clear, with the exception of the one post SSKsigned, its been all me today)

[Garruk Relentless]

So, garruk, let me get this straight. You're voting me for "lurking," when it's CLEARLY not alignment indicative, while you yourself have zero reads and have consciously decided to "lurk it out?" You're relying on figuring out the setup and yet have too much respect for the mods to wifom the setup, and took a back seat in the largely setup-grounded argument about Thor yesterday?

No. No. Kill this. This is called scum non-committal disease.

Just for you Amrun. The middle part(zero reads+lurk it out) is just parroting macmollie.

Onto the first part, I should go find the game where I lynched sensfan for lurking after he was VLA via drunk driver accident for like a month. Fun times. Two weeks is a long time to go VLA and, quite frankly, I would suggest that a player be replaced or hydreplace in. There comes a point where it becomes an active detriment to the game & scummy.

As for the whole miller-wifom, I said early on yesterday we believed it to be true. That was the extent of my care to involve in that--our modifier implied the other, and that was all I had to say on the matter. As they progressed more and more in the argument, I got more and more apathetic. I do respect Faraday in regards to setup wifom, but that does not mean you cannot draw conclusions from it nonetheless.

PEdit: What Tierce said pretty much.

[Garruk Relentless]

I would like to formally apologize for the tone of that post, Mollie, I was kinda pissy at that moment. >.<

[Garruk Relentless]

I think Syryana was a bulletproof townie who got replaced upon kill. That might just be the Sirens talking to me again, though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hurr hurr. Alchemist is a game related alt: check join date vs game start date. No posts in the sign up thread, no other posts period. The alt account was very clearly made for this game.

So, um, Syryanas still in the game.

The question becomes, who is the Alchemist? Is it a puppet account for Syryana?

I worry his disappearance is related to an Assassin's Guild.

Edit: Tammy, I was implying it was a day kill.

[Garruk Relentless]

This just looks like you are trying to feign a lack of knowledge.

lol

For this statement to make any sense I'd have to be scum with Syryana, which is quite frankly just silly even if you view me as scum.

[Garruk Relentless]

Everyone knew that Syryana was untargettable, or are you going off my theory that he was attempted-daykilled?

[Garruk Relentless]

That was my speculation, yes. I'm not as sure now that I did more research into it, but that it's all speculative anyway.

[Garruk Relentless]

You can see my thought process throughout the past two pages. "research" I guess is a bit of a misnomer.

[Garruk Relentless]

Sorry for the radio silence past few days--weekend+multiple games in LyLo(all finished now) kept my attention scattered. Also bussing my other head and telling him to

get in here and talk to me

.

Still thinking about where I want to put my vote. I'm expecting Amrun to contribute sometime in the near future.

I'm firmly sided with Tierce in the SafetyDance-Tierce monologues for obvious reasons(in fact, I actually agree with her on practically every point the last 2ish pages). I will say that SafetyDance is

particularly wrong

to like completely dismiss the crumbing going on not only between us, but between Tammy/Syr/~Syr. I don't think he's scum for, though, just particularly stubborn.

Still pretty sure Alchemist is Syryana, but whatever, he's hard lurking so there's that. I'm hoping for an alt slip to confirm it.

[Garruk Relentless]

"Anonymous" "Quotes" from "Anonymous" people(disclaimer: paraphrased).

I'm on the side of the fact that literally everyone is only involved with themselves makes me very bored.

[Garruk Relentless]

K I thought that he was a "replaceable townie" who got daykilled. I then realized(post 2003) that TheAlchemist was a game-related alt, so I retraced it to mean Syryana's some sort of commuter that swaps bodies OR that he was killed by some faction and they have replaced him with TheAlchemist. In both cases, he's pretty clearly related to a Faceless Man.

I hope for the alt slip because then I know who I'm dealing with. If it's Syryana, it's probable Alchemist is a townie. If it's a player who's not in this game, then we gotta use standard methods of scumhunting. If it's a player in this game, we lynch the fucker.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hush, quadz. I have been informed the other side of this planeswalker(remember, I'm the Veil-Cursed) has a case on ooba incoming.

[Garruk Relentless]

^^^ Lynch that tomorrow. Hearts in the right place though.

I'm giving Amrun twelve hours starting from now to produce real content before laying down the hammer.

[Garruk Relentless]

I really want to claim because modgaming might have given me a clue...or maybe not. But SSK is gone til the 13th and I refuse to claim without my partner being on board.

Not sure which of SpyreX and Agar is scum and which is dumb. Might be both. Bah. Amrun flash wagon I'm pretty sure had a bunch of scum on it, so that's a good place to start looking.

[Garruk Relentless]

I know we're out for blood right now after the stupid lynch, but can I request we exercise some caution so we don't have a quicklynch again.

[Garruk Relentless]

I liked the Agar vote more. The lolhammer I can justify as a lolhammer, but putting her to L-1 like that is just complete bullshit.

VOTE: Agar

[Garruk Relentless]

Not really helping your case, Agar. I clearly stated intent and gave a timeframe. You know, like how people who are not fools or scum do things. I wouldn't have even done it though if you hadn't set up the hammer though--half of this game is understanding tempo, and with the L-1 vote lain, someone was going to take the bait. I was hoping to head it off with our intent, but it didn't work.

And I am not giving a pass on SpyreX's hammer, but I find it paradoxically MORE acceptable than the person who sets up the hammer, ie you--you were baiting the hammer with that vote and you fucking know it. I mean, I pulled the exact same ploy in Syryana's Open, so I should know.

[Garruk Relentless]

In this case yes. I understand if you don't understand the scum tell of baiting the hammer, but what you did was a very obvious case of it. The tempo of the game dictated that the town wanted to pressure Amrun for answers, not necessarily to lynch her. There is a reason the wagon initially appeared to stop at L-2. You, however, seized the moment and manipulated the tempo with a 'case' and turned the pressure wagon into a lynch wagon when it was apparent that the town was not intending to lynch her. This tempo shift in turn manipulates a future voter to hammer out of turn.

Alright, so I got permission to claim part of our role.

We are Tyrion Lannister. Our role has three aspects to it. The first, our hated modifier. We've already been over that so moving on. The second, we get to ask one of the moderation team(Faraday, Mina, Nexus, Hitogoroshi) the question "where do whores go" each night. Night one, we asked Hi to. He told us "the moon base". An obvious miss. Last night, we asked Faraday, and his answer is more intriguing: "they are right under your nose". Now, the subtle comedy is not lost to me--I am a dwarf with no nose, but I can't help but think that this is a hint. As to what, I am not sure yet. As for our last abity, well, I don't think it wise to claim at this time. This is the ability that soft-confirms Tierce to us as town, though.

[Garruk Relentless]

EBWOP: phone posting, autocorrect be damned.

[Garruk Relentless]

Its been a few years, but yeah I've read all five. None of the supplements though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Right--i got the reference--and I'm not putting too much stock in it, but I still think it is something to consider. Truthfully, Faraday apparently knew me too well when designing this role because it is the exact sort of thing I try to game info out of.

[Garruk Relentless]

I believe your ability is just Faraday messing with you.

Due to :reasons: we're pretty sure that this is the case.

Well, if the puppy girl and the goat with the awesome hat both say so, i will ait back and enjoy the jokes.

[Garruk Relentless]

We dun get prodded. Shameful!

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh my what a number of posts. I'm more than willing to full claim at this point if people want me too--I'd need to check with SSK, though.

Anyways, we did our weekly check in yesterday. Our town block is current {Tierce, Goats, Alfred, Tammy, Benmage}. I'm also advocating ooba-Alch-Nautilus as town, but SSK isn't sure(he had some doubts on Alch on Nautilus, although I suspect this last string of posts will reverse that on Naut, and Alch I'm liking as town mostly since I thought Syr was town and mechanic analysis suggests a similar alignment for him).
The primary points of contention are Cephrir and ooba--one day my partner keeps saying he'll release a case on ooba, so I guess expect that at some point, just know we're in disagreement there(much like Messiah is on our slot). [/endinghydrabus]
Ceph we're just leaning in opposite directions--Tierce has been having this nasty habit of stealing the words right out of my mouth during today, but SSK thinks the post that drew me in his direction(2351) was a towntell, though, so I dunno.

Vote stays on AGar for now.

[Garruk Relentless]

i got prodded. i still want zed dead i still dont want spyuerx dead and i dont have much more 2 add.

Replace zed with AGar and we're pretty much in the same boat. Shit got lurky in here.

[Garruk Relentless]

I wanna hear from Alch. To start, why does he not like Agar? He's been on him since his entry into the game.

[Garruk Relentless]

We're willing to compromise on Zed. This hydras been plagued by one head being on vacation and having inner turmoil between Agar vs ooba.

[Garruk Relentless]

So now, the actual not catching up part.

If, IF, I go today I want it to at least be on the back of real wagons. These floater votes either need to drum up or get with a program. There's way too many scattered votes at this point and toooooo many people getting away without committing to whats going on.

That's one thing I like about AGars recent set - he's went hard and fast on me being town. I don't "get" the angle and I need someone to help explain to me scum-Agar's motive. I really, really think a scum-zd flip means AGar town (almost as much as it means ooba-scum).

elle took the low bar and went under it with the last posts. Benmage looks even more town which is good.

Unovte, Vote: Zdenek

I want to make these compete. If this gets big enough, I am going to reposition for hammers, but if I have to stop the Y U NO VOTE there you go.

I will say that cursory view the AGar wagon looks a lot more town than mine in composition. I feel like there's something in the way these votes are spread that I'm missing, but I can't even get my fingers around it.

SpyreX, why place a vote seemingly without reason?

SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Consider this a very poor prod dodge. I've been reading but don't have much to add to the conversation. I am kinda wanting to go kill Alch, though, but I worry of repeating an Amrun situation.

[Garruk Relentless]

I don't think The Alchemist is Syryana.

Like, I really don't.

I've thought about this the last day or two, and this is my -current- theory on Alch.

He's a Third Party. Or, well, whoever killed(notice I used the word killed--Syryana is long gone) Syryana is a Third Party, likely SK. And Alchemist is a puppet account being controlled by that person. It helps everything make sense in my book...

[Garruk Relentless]

...

Of course, you hold the key to this whole thing, no?

[Garruk Relentless]

Oooh, this will be fun. We're not done yet, Agar, but I got third parties to kill.

VOTE: The Alchemist

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh..? My previous foray into the Land of Mafia was filled with interesting and curious third parties, so I naturally read such permutations as them.

[Garruk Relentless]

Your problem is that it's assuming The Alchemist is

not

Syryana. I like your logic, but one of the base arguments for it is wrong.

Well if he's Syr he's still been alignment shifted or something probably, I guess. I agree he's probscum then. In any case, we should clear this mystery as soon as possible.

[Garruk Relentless]

Prod dodge. Post something a little bit more substantial later.

[Garruk Relentless]

Deeeath Note.

[Garruk Relentless]

I assume you still hold the coin?

[Garruk Relentless]

Unvote

Also, I'm technically a valid target as well for coin death.

[Garruk Relentless]

stop

How many killing roles do you think there are?

I wanna expand on this and ask do you really think a conditional 1-shot vig is unlikely in this setup?

[Garruk Relentless]

stop

How many killing roles do you think there are?

I wanna expand on this and ask do you really think a conditional 1-shot vig is unlikely in this setup?

I'm asking if ANOTHER one is unlikely.

Outside the mafia kill, I'd guess around two killing roles and no SK unless its a JoAT style SK with no factional kill.

[Garruk Relentless]

I am prepared to be unsurprised when there is no coin.

Why would he claim that unless he could prove it.

And if so, he's had this claim ready since d1.

[Garruk Relentless]

Natirasha, why aren't you voting SpyreX?

I don't want to lynch SpyreX, rather Agar or at least Zed. I'll join before deadline if needed.

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh VOTE: Agar

Thought I did that when I unvoted.

[Garruk Relentless]

I have a very bad feeling that I will be the one killed by the coin. And I have been satisfied with SpyreX's responses at this point in time.

Feel free to rub it in my face when Spyre flips scum though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Okay. I don't have any real reason to think SpyreX is town moreso than any other random fuck in this game.

[Garruk Relentless]

Just curious, Tierce-y poo, but was our gift of use to you?

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh, and

VOTE: SpyreX

Just for nacho.

[Garruk Relentless]

Unvote

I need to sleep+think. These claims change things.

[Garruk Relentless]

Am I the only one who caught it?

[Garruk Relentless]

:I

[Garruk Relentless]

VOTE: SpyreX

I have no idea what is going on with Kat and him, but yeah...hammer gambit might have paid off there?

[Garruk Relentless]

I know the whores probably aren't useful, but I'm going to keep reporting results here, can't hurt.

Mina told us to go a brothel. -.-

I am genuinely surprised by SpyreX's flip. Not sure how this changes my views though.

[Garruk Relentless]

I like Hito's moon-base-full-of-whores more though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Ninja's avoid detection, which is how Naut would avoid being detected doing anything night 2.

And I didn't claim to use the trackyesterday, I used Snare/Block. Naut didn't do any killing or anything at all just like last night quadz didn't go anywhere.

So, which is it?

[Garruk Relentless]

Why wait for nacho? I'm right here.

[Garruk Relentless]

As you wish.

[Garruk Relentless]

Oooh! Does this mean I get to argue with nacho? I can't wait!

[Garruk Relentless]

You'll probably nightkill me before I come around to lynching you.

Sadly, for once, you're actually wrong on my alignment.

[Garruk Relentless]

SSK checking in here. In addition to SD's lack of clarity regarding his claim, this hydra also thinks he's scum because of the difference of his play as compared to Lucid Dreamers Mafia. In Lucid Dreamers, he was way more active and making cases more on everyone. And you know, so explicit with how roles worked that he actually made a table of all the actions that had been performed. So in conclusion

Vote SafetyDance

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

We legit haven't talked about this game since mid-day three(note SSK's lack of presence) and Lucid Dreamers was still ongoing for one. We literally just talked about it--I took my vote off SD day one on the basis of his claim, shouldn't have.

[Garruk Relentless]

I don't think Tierce is the one you should ask for clarification from regarding SD's result?

[Garruk Relentless]

Unvote

Willing to lynch both AGar and quadz, Titus is just being Titus.

Hey nacho I'll be on all night later today so you can inquisition me all you want. I supported our SafetyDance vote, though, even if I wouldn't have justified it in the means he did with as much...gusto.

[Garruk Relentless]

Elle skips that entirely though... Why?

I want a VC but am gonna join the quadz wagon.

[Garruk Relentless]

I dunno how that quote got there.

[Garruk Relentless]

He's been on my shortlist since yesterday.

[Garruk Relentless]

VOTE: Quadz

Wheee

[Garruk Relentless]

Sounds to me more like a modified 1-shot global roleblocker, imo.

[Garruk Relentless]

Also it makes pretty good sense, Syr. Good way to backdoor some anti-swing tech into a role madness game is to utilize mass roleblocks--I think both elle and Titus's claim are neutral. More interested in hearing ]

why

Titus claimed early...she's not the type to do things like that.

[Garruk Relentless]

I need time to read and claiming was the only way I saw to get that. If y'all keep posting questions here, the limited time I have must be spent writing responses rather than reading.

Titus, you seriously can't expect us to stop posting content just for you to catch up. Straight-up, I don't give a fuck if you haven't read the thread mostly because this thread is pretty content-weak(d1 was wall wars between Benmage & Thor, d2 was bitching about Amrun, d3 was a lurkfest). Fact is, I'd just read the various claims(Tierce, Alchemist, me, elle are the ones I can think of).

So, give me a real reason: why did risk-adverse, logical, gunshy Titus claim like that, cuz I don't buy "you just needed time".

[Garruk Relentless]

That is the real reason. I cannot put forth ANYTHING logical if people are unwilling (with or without a reason) to answer questions if I haven't read. It's sure as hell risky to do nothing while a lynchtrain is coming. I cannot reply to anything from this evening until Monday morning. So I did he only thing I could so I could actually contribute.

For a guy saying that all this is shitty and has no content, why are you opposing my attempts to be able to deliver?

"Hey, give me til Monday evening, work is busy." It worked for Amrun, she just got lynched because scum quickhammered and deliberately still put forth no content after her deadline had passed.

Not that hard: I, for one, wouldn't have said a word and likely have vocally opposed any wagon set forth until that date.

Just because you can't put forth any "logical" content does not give you, specifically, a license to post illogically--it's something you

pride

yourself on. This makes your actions incongruent to your natural behavior, which, I'm sure you understand, makes you suspect in my eyes. I'm not lynching you yet because you have indicated some semblance of your normal thought process, but...you're on thin ice.

And I never said anything about your content, and I definitely am not opposing your attempts to deliver said content(seriously, how did you even get that out of my posts?), in fact, I gave you an out to the burden of reading.

[Garruk Relentless]

You're trying to justify a lame scumread on an ability on a uPick with roles (primarily) before alignments with that role existing ages ago on a Kise game. This is not a Kise game. Find a better excuse.

Not that I particularly agree with Katsuki's assessment, but I think you're kinda missing the point of Kat's post.

But this whole discussion is kinda a moot point anyway.

PEDIT:

[Garruk Relentless]

Can you vote quadz or Titus or someone that actually has a chance of getting lynched before going into super lurk mode?

[Garruk Relentless]

The most egregious one is investigating SD and that certainly anyone with half a brain could have gotten a read on via dayplay with the 10-man wagon on him. Moreover it was a claimed JOAT. why waste a cop on it, 'falling off the map' a pitiful excuse. Not that the others also weren't bad.

VOTE: Quadz

Bad.

Also, Tierce, I really need you to stop clearing people based off roleclaims. I know this is slightly hypocritical because my clear is based off roleclaim.

[Garruk Relentless]

You're whole convo smelt of awkward bussing.

[Garruk Relentless]

o ok bos

[Garruk Relentless]

Especially when you consider you've previously taken shots at quadz for being scum, but never really put your $ where your mouth is.

Its scum 1-0-1 strategy to call their teammates scum, yet vote a different scum read. Cahlasssic.

thx Benmage.

Damn I was doing so well at not slipping.

For the record, I believe Quadz is a cop, I don't believe he's town.

[Garruk Relentless]

Yeah, I have a recently-ended game on another site I could link with a scumcop, but people will just say it doesn't apply and I'm useless/a retard/an idiot because it was modded by someone who's name rhymes with "Warlahindur". His opinion(and mine by proxy) is that a scum cop is pretty much claim protection because of pretty much Cephrir's reasoning above.

I could fully see Faraday doing that.

[Garruk Relentless]

So let's look at this.
1. We have two opposing claims.
2. We have a claimed vig asking for targets.

...is this lynch really not obvious? VOTE: SafetyDance...again.

RE: Desperado: Not particularly worred at the moment. Debate with me tomorrow, okay? Your case is half weak--the most useful part, I'll admit, is my pussyfooting around SpyreX yesterday. I don't really have a good explanation for my actions, I was mostly going off gut. I STILL think Agar is scum, though.

[Garruk Relentless]

Why do we not want to clear up these opposing claims, Desp?

In any case, I'm not calling it a day. I think I've actually been more active today than other days. Your case has literally been half quoting my posts and saying "this is scummy".

[Garruk Relentless]

So do you advocate ending the day now or not?

Because Garruk is pressuring the lynch to go through and scheduling a date for tomorrow, which reads to me like they're done talking for today.

And for you to say that isn't scummy, you must agree that there is nothing left to accomplish today and we should just lynch SD--even when the option of leaving SD to a vig and getting an additional flip is available.

- Des

Why does every fucking day have to go to deadline? If we're calling random shit scummy, that's scummy.

I mean, we have a

clear and obvious

plan of attack today & tonight. I don't know why you're advocating leaving him for the vig? I mean, if you wanna play that game, why not just lynch SD and get an additional flip from the vig? Works both ways, bro.

[Garruk Relentless]

I'd believe this more if I didn't think the town would just end up navel-gazing. Like, let me tell you what'll happen.

You run me up, Ceph/Quadz/SD prob join cuz it's a counterwagon, Tierce+Tammy+others prob chainsaw me. I claim early so I don't get lynched by someone who "forgot" I'm hated, you guys all begrudgingly unvote and we sit there and navel-gaze, then we go into a scramble with 24 hours to deadline again and lynch SD.

Moreover, isn't Titus supposed to do her mass redirect thing tonight? If so, we likely won't even get our vigshot, so you're plan is just stupid and keeps this controversy going another day.

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm not particularly well-versed in the art of debate, but isn't this one of those cases where, if we are in agreement that one of SD & Quadz is scum, then isn't the Burden of Proof on you for why we shouldn't try to hunt the scum within this pair? Or, to make a shitty analogy, was our play wrong in ParadoxPrime?

[Garruk Relentless]

A.) So you're scumreading me now?
B.) Where did you get this given that half the last two pages is me arguing that we should lynch SD or quadz?

No, I'm just saying that of all the players I think you're likeliest to jump on a Garruk wagon. Am I wrong in my assumption you've been scumreading me pretty bad?

[Garruk Relentless]

Both heads of this hydra are gonna be on relatively limited access til Sunday.

[Garruk Relentless]

Kanye I read your ISO over the night phase & I think you're scum.

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh, Nexus didn't even deign to give us a response to Where do whores go?

[Garruk Relentless]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5331544 This post was my first thought when I was reading it last night, considering that Quadz and PB are scum.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5394610
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5374893
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5376175
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5406793 In which kanye aggressively defends Peacebringer & SpyreX, including giving them excuses for their posts.

His play yesterday was pretty cagey as well--prior to ooba's case, he was fully on the SD wagon(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5428752 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5424065), he expressed some doubt(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5435792) before ooba showed up, but didn't actually join the wagon until he presented a formal case: seems to me he might have overreacted a little and done some super bussing there.

Speaking of, why did you express interest -numerous- times of having zed killed(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5395127 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5395127 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5415265), but now you vindicate Shadoweh for killing Katsuki(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5452289).

[Garruk Relentless]

seems to me he might have overreacted a little and done some super bussing there.

To expand on this: Especially once Nacho showed up, kanye went into massive quadz-must-die mode, which to me seemed like an easy plot to gain some towncred w/Nacho.

[Garruk Relentless]

you think its reasonable that i would aggressively defend a buddy whos lynch was uncertain one day and then the next day aggressively push a buddy's lynch after they were in the clear?

Yes? You weren't exactly pushing hard on quadz until after ooba & nacho came in.

Also, I retract the Kat point--I thought Kat replaced Zed there for a minute.

[Garruk Relentless]

I love how you say kanye pushed the quadz wagon when it was ooba(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5440276) and nacho(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5447462 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5447428 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5447595) who drew attention to him there.

[Garruk Relentless]

Ooba and Nacho made the original push. Then Quadz claimed and the wagon dispersed. Then, as I said, Kanye dragged the town back to Quadz with a new case.

- Des

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=3900

Look at that and tell me it was Kanye who lynched quadz.

And you didn't address why scum-Kanye refused to bus Spyrex and then changed his approach and bussed Quadz the very next day (without a NK to boot).

- Des

I don't think Kanye wanted to bus Quadz, he was on "SafetyDunce" or Titus most of the day. He didn't even join the quadz wagon until after the Cop claim. I think d3, kanye thought that he could push through a Zed lynch(it was working for a while too) over SpyreX, and it would have been strange for him to 180 onto Spyre after that defense.

[Garruk Relentless]

I was about to suggest an un-redirectable SK, but I guess that works too.

VOTE: Cephir

you can die.

Also I forgot, is there a reason to think tammy is town? I'll running out of scum possibilities. The only things left are ooba/Benmage/ and maybe Agar

PnJ, I maybe haven't been paying as much attention as I should be, but would you mind summarizing why you think Cephrir is the proper vote?

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

So, um, what's up?

[Garruk Relentless]

You're scum and haven't responded to me calling out your total projection on Kanye re: Quadz' lynch.

- Des

I'm mostly not interested in arguing with you because you've been deathtunneling me since day one and I just don't have it in my heart to care anymore. Literally anything I do you will construe as scum, so I'm just gonna wait for someone who isn't Tweedledesp or Tweedledance to interact with me. In any case, you won't lynch me today, I can ensure that.

[Garruk Relentless]

I was well aware of that fact when I wrote it, yes.

[Garruk Relentless]

It doesn't change the fact that Desperado will construe anything I say as scum ramblings, though.

[Garruk Relentless]

If you wanna chat though, Ceph, I wouldn't mind.

[Garruk Relentless]

This isn't even true. I said you guys were town D1. Then stayed away from you D2. And D3.

Like, are you fucking serious right now?!?! I gave you guys all the space in the world.

- Des

Was it not formerfish who built the whole case on us and almost got us quicklynched day one? I'll grant you the other two, I guess, but I feel you're approaching this with a conclusion already in mind(ie I'm scum) and building a premise from there(am I doing the same to kanye? I dunno, I try not to. I really hate that he's talking sense today).

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Garruk Relentless]

Oh my, I didn't realize dice rolls were banned per the first post, sorry Faraday!

It wasn't particularly related to the game, in any case.

[Garruk Relentless]

Where was I caught in a lie, Desp? If you're regarding our untimely VLA, I'm sorry it was poorly-timed, but I was VLA site-wide and my hydra partner is literally known for his ability to lurk harder than anyone.

[Garruk Relentless]

I think one of those accusations is linked to the other, Despy.

Nonetheless, I thought about this during my commute today, I have been insufferable. So, give me two hours to get back to a PC and I'll expand on my thoughts and "engage you".

No matter the case, just understand I

will not

be lynched today.

[Garruk Relentless]

@SD, the notes were written prior to my work explosion. The ten pages cover until about page 30 or so.

Full claims benefit scums. I felt compelled to claim but yet scum found a way around what I did. If I could have claimed near lylo, scums would have had an impossible time.

Shadoweh already claimed the kill.

I'm struggling to come to grips that Titus can spend the time making ten pages of notes but can't read the first page of day 5 to see what happened

Just like there's a dissonance between the calm 'not going to be lynched' Garruck and the one that gets hyper-defensive after a few votes. If you're not going to get lynched the actually come out and say why. None of this bs softclaiming shit that today is rife with. Can we just make everyone do a

full

claim so this role madness is out in the open?

If we're not getting rid of Garruk today, can we tie up TA Syr, I mean there's still no reason he's actually town right?

Katsuki/SM likely had an odd/even night will modifier. Seems fairly straightforward

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.g ... ill_06.mp3

Actually, if it was wrong on Thor's roll, it must be reverse luck.

VOTE: Titus

=/

[Garruk Relentless]

GR, you also have dissonance or right out lying regarding how your heads vote.

That is unless you changed your mind about votes as threats.

? Explain?

Okay, so, Desperado, you there?

[Garruk Relentless]

k so what do you need from me, or should I just start with my kanye case?

[Garruk Relentless]

#1 issue with Kanye case is: why did Kanye stay away from Spyrex D1 and then bus Quadz at a point in time where he had a lot of other options available to him?

- Des

I mentioned before that I don't think kanye went into d4 expecting quadz to be the primary lynch target--that's, at least, what his behavior around the SafetyDance wagon suggested to me. After talking with SSK last night, our current working theory is that, once it was clear quadz was going south, the scum team is pushing forward kanye as something of a champion and planning on him going into the long game since it's kinda becoming clear that they're not going to win earlier.

Regarding SpyreX, I think of all the things, he was telling the truth about his role in some amount. He likely had some objectives to fulfill. Who knows how many exactly he had fulfilled at that point--that's my first thought at least. My second thought is that SpyreX had the pedigree of being hyped up both as a player and on an individual level in this game. SpyreX likely would have been a very successful member of the scumteam had he got through another night phase to get his head fully in the game, so to speak. Perhaps it also has a little to do with personalities as well--I'm unsure, but kanye definitely suggested a positive history with SpyreX, so he's less likely to want to bus him.

[Garruk Relentless]

My enumerated scumreads are elle/PnJ/Alchemist+1, if kanye is town. I think Titus is just complete derptown this game and I'm kinda confused about what the case for Agar-town is, but I'm willing to suspend my suspicions at the moment(& Syr's done shit since his claim again). I have secret possible scumread, but I'm not ready to jump that bridge yet(mostly because it involves both me fullclaiming).

I have a sort of working theory on the game design, though, and it -strongly- suggests Titus-scum and elle-town to a lesser degree, though. I need more info before I present it though.

What did he have to gain from bussing? You suggest that his team expected him to live to endgame, so why go for cheap town cred?

Nacho's pretty much undisputed trust is the main thing that comes to mind.

[Garruk Relentless]

How many abilities do you have total?

[Garruk Relentless]

Now Titus answer the question.

[Garruk Relentless]

Hey nacho are you purposely ignoring my kanye ramblings or no?

[Garruk Relentless]

K I wanna test my theory then.

VOTE: Titus

[Garruk Relentless]

I don't even know where to go with 4132. Like, what?

But my theory is that all the town players or all players have 3 abilities. All the full claims so far have fit this mold. The fact you claim to only have one ability is suspicious.

[Garruk Relentless]

Is it broken by massclaim? I would not think so.

Elle claimed 3 abilities and Tierce hasn't fullclaimed and she claimed 2 already.

[Garruk Relentless]

Why's it silly Tierce.

[Garruk Relentless]

This is a Faralame game. And Faradumb games always have safeclaims for scum. Farascum roots for them.

Except for where they don't think it matters. Like with Titus. He says he only has one ability, but to the extent that we've seen so far, players have three abilities. We could catch Titus.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Just needs revision.

[Garruk Relentless]

We'll see.

[Garruk Relentless]

Yeah, that sounds like GR just made it up, because he had to come up with a theory fast. Naut has already said my ability worked. Shadoweh explained the kill by saying his ability interlinked with mine. Either you think Shadoweh and myself are scum and pulling a moron's gambit or we are both town. Come back with something else. Something with actual you know, coherence.

GR what is your standard for voting? It isn't consistent with what you claimed.

Let me tell you that Nat definitely did not just make up that claim. We've been discussing it for a few days now and this is just the first time he's said it in public.

As for the standard, I'll let Nat take that question.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

Yeah, well for all the so-called experience in that hydra and neither of you stated the obvious. My bullshit detector is going off.

What's the obvious thing that neither of us stated? Because I'm obviously not seeing it as obvious.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

I'll grant that there are possible land mines within the game, because Faraday is a good mod, but I also think my theory will prove to be true on the whole.

Regarding my voting standard, I'm still failing to see your point? We've moved past the point where votes are primarily used for threats.

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm tunneling this yes because I'm not convinced that its just a coincidence that all the claims so far have fit a similar format, even SpyreX hinted at having three abilities.

Regarding Titus, Im just going to be legit and say i don't know what to tell you. Youve played enough games now with me that you should understand how I operate.

[Garruk Relentless]

Nothing. I believe you. I'm keeping it in mind and editing my notes.

[Garruk Relentless]

Titus's stated reason for voting us was p terrible.

[Garruk Relentless]

But I hate hate hate that Titus wants to prove herself by posting pics of her notes.

Yes and no. Personally I just want to see the damn things, except now that I know they only go up to page 30 I'm not as excited as I was.

It's the mindset that bothers me. "Let me prove to you I've been reading."

I've definitely seen town post their notes before, but this kind of urgent let me prove I'm reading is twitchy.

I have to agree with you on that mindset. But also, posting notes means nothing. They're easy to make up. Pick a random post say that it's scummy or town-like. Repeat a few times. It's not a town-tell or a scumtell.

[Garruk Relentless]

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

As you may have noticed already in this thread, I like to read into notes. It's not their presence or absence, I just find their content useful in determining the writer's alignment.

How? Once again, I note how they can be faked. But even if they're not faked, they can be so devoid of verbs or adjectives that there's no way you could see into it at all. Sometimes mine consist of "Cephrir 4194 down". Literally.

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

That's my point. It's hardly even a theory, it's just a guess based off of incomplete information. And when you consider that they chose now, as the 7th vote on the Titus wagon, to whip out their supr sekrit gamebreaking theory stinks too.

- Des

I was actually planning on voting elle beforehand, but I'm willing to test my theory.

Speaking of elle.

Nah, I have a terribad memory. I looked back earlier to find my previous roll when making post 4103 to double check that it was at Thor and I noticed it.

My kanye read is out there. My Titus read is mostly just a continuation on my Zdenek read from the previous day, where my vote stayed. Not really sure that the overnight/explanation changes that, hence my vote there. Part of me agrees that it'd be weird of scum to choose to no kill last night just to try and earn Titus some obvious town-cred so that maybe she could clear some of them, too - but then idk, why not if they weren't expecting a vig kill - especially when their kills are getting blocked by something.

PrideandJoy is mostly gut and their weird pushes on me feel like scum baiting to see who bites - in combination with a lot of others points on PnJ that I've read recently, like Cephrir's 4089 that I kind of just nod along/agree with.

There were better reasons at some point - but they got washed up in my week+ of awayness - and again, terribad memory. I keep telling myself I'll go back and re-read but yeah, never do.

So, who are your scumreads and why?

This post is really weird.

[Garruk Relentless]

Bah, fine. I see our wagon is avtually getting started. I'm out doing errands right now.

I'll explain why you won't lynch me when I get home.

SSK if you're online please just full claim for me.

[Garruk Relentless]

Unlike Nat, I'm not actually afraid of anything at this point seeing as all the votes on us are bullshit.

MC-They've had it out for us the

entire game

. Literally, all they've done is tunnel on us for one reason or another. No surprise that their vote is still on us.
SafetyDance- He was basically sheeping MC, if i recall correctly.
Titus- He for some reason thinks that we made up the theory in some act of anxious scumminess? Which makes no sense at all? Let alone is not enough for a serious vote on page 172 of a game.
Ooba- Ooba's also had it out for us a lot of the game. But he keeps flip-flopping. Like in his previous post he thought we were town. Now we're scum again. Why? Because MC. MC who has been tunneling us the entire time.

[Garruk Relentless]

-SSK

[Garruk Relentless]

I'm not neighborized with Tierce. Think more interesting.

[Garruk Relentless]

Thanks for the defense, Tierce. We're fullclaiming though, because, well, it's about time.

We're a 2-shot motivator/fruit vendor. The first shot was used on Tierce night one. It was a...leap of faith, if you will. We wanted to use it early because we were almost quickwagoned day one and wanted to get some use out of our role if we were gonna be lynched day two. We didn't like SafetyDance even after the claim, which is why we didn't motivate him(he was the only claim at the time). As of the current time, the second shot is still in our possession. We think it is a good time to use it. I have a few good ideas on where to go with it, but if anyone thinks they can use a second shot well, I'm all ears.

[Garruk Relentless]

Quick question that has been lingering: why did you defend me from Tammy?

Also, obvious fact: scum don't attempt to kill and Motivate Town for Towncred on the same Night.

That was a mistake. We misread our role PM and thought that our motivate also motivated the mafia nightkill, but on second glance I realized that I have severe reading comprehension problems(ie it doesn't). I didn't come forward to clarify things afterwards because we were still convinced you were town, so it changed into a mini-gambit of sorts.

tl;dr: I'm a complete dolt.

[Garruk Relentless]

The motivate is flavorized as giving somene gold.

[Garruk Relentless]

Titus, you keep saying I'm scummy(but rather cleared by night action), but what exactly lead you to this conclusion? And please have more than an offhand comment from page 17 or whatever.

Otherwise, if anyone wants our gold tonight, tell me now, otherwise you leave us to our own machinations on who to give it to.

Otherwise, I'm pretty ready to move to night & lay down the hammer(ie completely unmoved by claim) when you people give me the go-ahead.