A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Messiah Complex]

Planned on catching up yesterday and then the outage happened. The Formerfish head is completely current and has left me his reads, but I will not be able to consolidate them until this afternoon.

Mod: Desperado will be V/LA from 9/20-9/23

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Spoiler: Notes from Desperado

Kanye - #48, early PNJ wagon, #74, #140
Thor - Claims miller, #521 benmage omgus feels genuine,
mollie - #83, #212 quadz drops it pretty quick too, #236 bad amrun vote, #343 no mollie not that, please not that, #354 agreed about Cephrir, #548/#549 why is this scumSyry?
Nautilus - #347 why is Cephrir town, #378 why are you already WKing stup?, #440 solid lynch pool, #452 townnacho, #463 why is andrius town now? #473 nacho towncase, #480 I know so why did you WK him earlier?
Tammy - #97, early PNJ wagon, #169 scum don't openly talk like this, #208 I've seen town and scum Tammy interject this looks like the former, #433 why is quadz town
Benmage - #518 this isn't scumtalk
PNJ - #118 I saw the same thing re: Elle, #124, #460 weird ooba hop
Amrun - #230 good hunting, #494 apology is sincere, #528 I totally agree,
ooba - #271 naked reads bleh, #334 calls elle easy target < hate that, #434 active lurking, #445 good response, #513 more townposting
Shadoweh - #207 I agree
Cephrir - #174 I dunno what do you think it is?, #319 bad thor mudsling (you didn't even know his playstyle??), #451 bad unvote, #539 townposting,
Alfred - #353 don't like quadz turn at all (buddy?)
Elle - #447 lots of townreads, wanna find some scum?
Tierce - #233 bad amrun vote
Andrius - fucking post restriction
Garruk - Bad wagon hop re: Elle #138
quadz - weak slip push, #437 good ooba vote, #441 bad ooba case, #487 decent rebuttal, #522 meh
Stupendous - #292 terrible quadz vote--wafflewaffle
Goat - Bad Cephrir vote--Zdenek did same thing, #459 bad vote "may change if my other head wnats it to" fencesitter, #511 why are you involving yourself in this conversation, #529 again with the parroting, weird Benmage interaction
Zdenek - Bad RVS vote, bad kanye vote, #187, #193 good question since you did the same thing (buddy?), #396 bad thor vote, #492 why? Thor doesn't need help

Spoiler: Notes from Formerfish

Alfred- t198, t221, t295
Amrun- s230, s251
Andrius- t269
Benmage- s22, s300, s426
Cephrir- s53, s77, t205
elleheathren- t110, t282, s326, t447
garruk- s18, s40, s96, s98-99, s108, s138
Goat- s43, t288, t299
Kanye0 t36, t47, t52, t111, t168
Macmollie- t17, t83, n212, s343, s365, s429
Nautilis- s381, s435
ooba- s271, s331
peacebringer- t127, t167
prideandjoy- s54, t66-67, t130, t235, s340-341
Quadz- t78, t244, t267, t298, t422
Safetydance- null
shadoweh- s24, s34, s71, t149, t207, s285
stupendous- s81, s292, s374
Syryana- null
Tammy- t106, t169, s179, t186, ?248, s 293, s359-361, t417-418
Thor- t310, t328
Tierce- t50, t73, t103, t233, t281
zdenek- t187, s396

Vote: Stupendous Man

VOTE: Andrius

No godless man may sit the seastone chair.

RVSes too late

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Quadz

Lots of fluff posting without much content. His vote/unvote of elle seemed really awkward. However, at this point it's mostly a gut read. I still have some reading to do, so this may change.

Opportunistic wagon hop + fencesit combo meal

are you town or scum this game?

Are you serious? Explain what this question would accomplish, if anything.

Why do you care what it can accomplish?

@Tammy- Care to elaborate on that vote?

I wish people would townread me for being snippy.

Hmm... nope.

I'm waiting in line at a Chipotle but I just want to say, holy fucking shit, my kingdom for a doublevote right now.

I expect some reasons from you whenever you get the chance instead of casting baseless suspicion.

Why so eager to defend yourself?

@Tammy- Care to elaborate on that vote?.

I didn't like your one "content" post.

So, you saw my vote, which means you're reading along, yeah? Any thoughts on the game so far?

Only the more recent pages. I skimmed over the rest. Quadz is still scummy. Cephrir's posts are good. Not much else at the moment. I still need to read more before making any major conclusions.

@Shadoweh- You're null so it would've been pointless to comment on your alignment anyway. I was simply pointing out that your attitude doesn't make you town. Mollie's question wasn't scummy, but I don't see any reason for asking if someone is town or scum.

mebbe it would make him claim town

I want them to send up a strong town flare cos if they are town they are good for the game

why does this bother you

So as soon as someone says "I'm town" you believe them?

"Not much else at the moment?" How about Thor's miller claim, or the Elle wagon, or anything at all really? Cephrir's posts are good?

Stupendousman doing a less than stupendous job of trying to look useful

We agree.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah's entrance is kinda scummy for me, don't care for the note formatting as they don't feel like how a townie would keep their notes, but I do agree with their vote and assessment of SM. Why no special mention of Garuk if one of your heads is apparently scumreading half their posts- just because that head isn't the one posting?

How would a townie keep notes? I read through the game and mentioned posts that leaned one direction or the other.

Pretty much yeah.

Forgot to mention- method of attacking SM is kind of robotic (because that's every post he's made, even though neither of you had notes about 2 of his posts on initial read) even if the points it makes are solid.

It's robotic because most of the points made are also reiteration. If I had left a naked vote would you be questioning that format as well?

I'm not sure why you're going out of your way to be suspect of the formatting of the post when you agree with the content. What's up with that?

Also your recent interaction with Thor is really really scummy. You don't care for his playstyle so you're just shutting down completely? Grow up.

Mollie I think you're making it up in your head. Thor isn't presenting his claim that way at all and this isn't similar to Reck in RW.

Vote Stup with me?

- Des

sorry

[Messiah Complex]

With more detail than "post X is scummy".

Do you think either of us can't answer why any particular post pinged one way or the other or what?

And my point is that you're cheerleading my vote + content on Stup but you're a) not voting them with me and b) slinging suspicion based on post formation. Talking out of both sides of your mouth, if you will.

[Messiah Complex]

MOLLIE THIS POST IS FOR YOU PLEASE READ IT I AM REACHING OUT TO YOU WITH THIS POST

Syryana hit his good stride in about #660, I think, and hasn't lost it since. His posts after that are fucking on fire and I feel the same dancing beat that he feels in my heart so you can take the townread as one of the reads I could probably bullshit pretty hard but the truth is that it's a matter of the heart and I trust the little blood pumping motherfucker.

ooba I'm not *as* sure about but I got a good vibe from him early and so am riding on that for a little while. His followup posts firmed up the townread, and I don't think that the wagon on him is very good. I think I explained it a little while ago and read hasn't changed much from then, so I could dig that up if you really want me to?

What do you think of Desperado's opening and could you answer the questions the nice man asked you?

((Also @ Messiah in general: Why did you note that m&m's #212 was null? I noticed you didn't do that with anyone else, so I'm assuming that post has some special importance in FF's heart or something?))

I marked down #212 as a null tell for Mac because it was the first in the quadz train after he made his comments about the wights. Quadz eventually, like 3 posts later, recanted his statements when it was pointed out that alignment came after roles. That's why I put it in the null column, because it seemed like it could have been a poorly thought out idea on Quadz part, but it was quickly jumped on by Mac.

It has been hard to keep up with the number of posts while I am working, but I am caught up.

Do people really believe that Thor is scum? I don't have much experience playing with him, but he did school me in my first newbie game. He doesn't seem to be acting the way he did in that game, where he came out the gate at full tilt and was putting people on their heels to start with. I am not getting the same vibe I was in that game at all. I would firmly put him as town, and those who are still pushing this ill advised and misshapen train on him should reevaluate their positions.

@Cephrir- you didn't like the way we came in the game when it was like 25 pages deep? Would you rather we had come in and said we weren't/hadn't read the thread yet and started playing from there, ignoring everything else that had already happened? And do you have anything specific you would like to go over with us?

[Messiah Complex]

{cephrir, zdenek, stupendous, garruk} is our conslidated lynchpool at the moment.

Cephrir - Continually puts down our case on Stupendous yet sheeps it. I don't see any of his own reasoning for Stupendous being his "top suspect," at least. Also reminiscent of his interactions with Elle and Thor during their argument, where he attacked Thor for not engaging with topics of discussion that Cephrir himself later admits aren't any good. Especially given he had already pledged to ignore Thor prior to. He's playing both sides on a lot of issues and it's super scummy.

zdenek - Zdenek's Goat push is really bad:

UNVOTE: StupendousMan, VOTE: Cephrir

Cephrir could have joined kanye in getting the game started. He didn't.

Why are you focussing on Cephir here?

When you consider that Zdenek was one of the people who didn't join Kanye in getting the game started:

Vote: Benmage

Obviously.

I'd also echo Stupendous' 811, and Zdenek's handling of Thor's claim doesn't show much town thought process either.

Garruk I leave to formerfish--I suspect he can have that case up by late tonight.

---------------

Why do you care what it can accomplish?

When you ask something that accomplishes nothing you are doing nothing to contribute and are either fluff posting or scum. Since it seems like mollie's playstyle involves a decent amount of fluff, I'm going to consider it null.

Yeah but you're the one who decided that mollie's question wasn't accomplishing anything.

Why so eager to defend yourself?

You don't let someone off the hook when they provide no reasoning for their suspicion.

Desp, I admire your efforts to put a reasonable case together, but I think you can do much better.

@ macmollie: the safetydance wagon is totally whack, I agree. What're you seeing with Stup? Is it because the wagon's been a little too easy? Because I feel like Nautilus, Cephrir, and Goat all basically just sheeped it and it's making me uneasy. And who are you looking at if not them?

@ Nautilus: why are you resorting to Stup already after you said you wanted to give them some room?

[Messiah Complex]

mebbe he comes off as forced cos he is newbtown worried about getting lynched.

or you mebbe right and he is scum and his scummates are trying to bus him.

there are actually a lot of reasons why he may across as "forced" but it may have nothing to do with his alignment.

he seems new. he seems like he is trying to find his way. <-----no way I am voting that, if he did something outstandingly scummy then yeah but he hasn't.that is why if he flips scum I will think it is a bus and if he flips town we know where to look.

Yeah, Peace being the 4th one who seemingly divined that Stup was scum upon reread is enough for me to go elsewhere.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@ Goat: What are you two doing? You basically copy our paper on Stup and then drop it as soon as Thor pokes one hole? Only to vote the other easy wagon du jour?

You say you aren't scum but your actions are saying otherwise.

[Messiah Complex]

I did not put down your case. I think it is well-reasoned but also that the way you went about it was scummy. If he flips scum, I will suspect you marginally less. I will have that same argument with Thor every day, you still have to answer accusations that aren't great- and more importantly my issue was that he cherry picked the even worse ones to make her look bad. I don't know what you mean about playing both sides but if you're expecting strong stances out of me on day 1 you're not going to get any.

I'm pretty sure you did but looking back the posts were referring to multiple people so I may have read it wrong. What were you referring to you when you said this?

I also mentioned earlier that I agreed with the thrust of Messiah's case on SM.

The case just isn't very persuasive or strong, nor does it look like it could plausibly convince anyone.

I'm not really looking for strong stances, just consistent ones. If you thought most of Elle's concerns weren't valid, I don't understand why you thought you had to attack Thor for not answering them. If you think our case is well reasoned, I don't understand why you would go out of your way to undermine it (by scumreading us for the formatting of our notes) and then sheep it later anyway.

I don't see the issue with the first point here, but the second is better. It amuses me that you're agreeing with Stupendousman here. I agree with you about him while scumreading you and I'm scum, but you're allowed to agree with his Zdenek case enough to vote on it?

I don't think Stup is scum anymore. How does this affect your amusement level?

@ Stup: Already did. What's the rest of your scumpool look like?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Holy wall wars 2013!

really?

@ Ceph: Are you saying that the composition of a wagon isn't a real thing? You told us that you didn't want to do a list because they're juvenile or some shit, then you did one and it magically popped out a top suspect anyway? Nautilus "resorts" to Stup after telling me he had planned on giving them some room this game, Goat rereads and acquires a scum suspect that they immediately drop the moment someone questions it, and then peace rereads and, lo and behold, he votes stup too. None of these votes made me feel like I was on the right path. Should they have?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I'm not backing off though, I'm turning around and running in the other direction. And you pretty clearly did say that when you said "it was just based on the way the wagon built up rather than actual things."

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@Tammy

I initially read Thor as town because of the game we had played before. In the game he starts breaking people down from the first post he makes. Thor whittles mutley down until he basically implodes. Thor hammers him so hard that he ends up claiming a PR that led an actual PR to out himself, due to set up limitations, and then claims scum when the votes were in (spoiler- Mutley was a VT). Here is a link to the game where Thor was scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ser_select

I don't see Thor doing that this game, hell he didn't even read the prior posts when he came in. I would expect scumThor to not let any perceived slip to let lie. From what I experienced I would see him laying into everyone/anyone for anything he thought he could get some mileage out of. In fact he is almost being entirely reactionary this game, only responding to those who are engaging him.

The rest of my read on Thor came out of the Miller claim and the subsequent discussion with elle, cephrir, and benmage. I didn't want to affect the conversation by inserting myself into it at the time though. The fact that a few people seemed to not be able to wrap their heads around his claim, continued to push his lynch, and the way he handled himself since the accusations started all led me to solidify my original read on Thor as town.

~ post from formerfish account deleted

[Messiah Complex]

This is the sort of reasoning that I can get behind, but where did he put down your case?

This seems like something you could have confirmed/denied on your own.

What makes you think that I had a problem with people who didn't join Kanye in "getting the game started."

Hint: I didn't.

Nothing? Pretty sure I didn't say you had a problem with those people, but that you were pushing Goat because he focused on Cephrir over other people who did the same thing when you were one of those people. It was a really roundabout way to say "I don't think not helping kanye get the game out of RVS is scummy." It's even worse because you're wrong.

Peacebringer folding under such little pressure is a problem.

Why?

Kanye,

yep

You should explain this.

I swear to God Kanye. This shouldn't be so difficult.

I still don't like Zdenek.

Quadz testing the waters.

Kanye can die for refusing to answer my question about his take on Benmage.

^Literally Zdenek testing the waters on Kanye immediately after calling quadz out for testing the waters on him.

Well, it's just as unsubstantial as the other vote. Here you go, SyrGod.

VOTE: SafetyDance.

This game is still annoying me, I am collecting quite a few town reads from people, but I am having trouble finding scumreads. And all the wordswordswords are boring. I feel like it's 2008 all over again in this game.

Possibly the worst vote of the game thus far.

@ Syry: Your SD case isn't very good. "There's no indication of thought process or alignment hunting in his ISO" is a pretty hollow accusation at this stage, wouldn't you say?

@ Goat: I didn't like either of your votes on Stup or SafetyDance. Pretty sure I said as much as it was happening. Why didn't that didn't factor into your "WHY US?" routine?

@ mollie: I probably would have voted goat people with you, but won't be joining you on Thor. FF should be putting up a garruk case at some point tonight as well and after that SD vote they put up we might move there. Also Syry is town, just wrong.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray. Life reared its ugly head and shits been keeping me offline. I am now faced with plenty of time because I am between jobs for about a week. Thanks for the patience in getting this Garruk case up.

Because we're us:

Vote: Garruk Relentless

Oh wait. Not this game. See, in this game, we're cursed and take 2 less than the majority to be lynched. So, instead.

Unvote

so you take 11 to lynch

and yet this scares you away from voting yourself?

vote Garruk

Those RVS wagons pile up fast. It can be hard to unvote during a fast-paced wagon. And it would just be sad to be part of your own demise, now wouldn't it?

This exchange didn't sit well with me. I felt the question from MM was a fair one, and feel like Garruk just kinda made a joke about it instead of taking it seriously. 11 votes would be needed to get him lynched. Was he so afraid of coming off scummy in the beginning of the game that he had to unvote like that? If he were that fearful why even self-vote in the first place.

See, in this game, we're cursed and take 2 less than the majority to be lynched.

Hey, Amrun, you're misrepping us a little--we did random vote Goat on a Raft like three posts later. And you can hardly expect us to not be a bit self-vote shy when we have a super-hated modifier.

This post comes off as genuine, and when considering our own restriction, we believe Thor about his miller claim.

How many times are you going to mention you have that super hated modifier?

See, I actually LIKE this random wagon.

VOTE: Eleeheathen

I really didn't like this vote, especially when he called it a random wagon. You do sort of address that comment here:

I liked the flavor reasoning behind the elle wagon. I guess calling it a random wagon is a bit of a misnomer, sure, but the "wight" slip seemed genuine to me. I know faraday assigned roles before alignments, but wights is a perfectly fine scum flavoring--they are in direct opposition to the Realm, and as a sort of zombie-analogue, anyone can really be one, IIRC.

But you also just confuse your point at the same time. You seem to be vilifying Elle for her wight comment, but at the same time are considering it to be an extremely valid point, and that anyone who has read the books/seen the show could possibly come to the same conclusion. Hell, I think that Desp and I had a very similar conversation when we first signed up for the game.

Garruk Relentless, do you still think your vote is in the right place?

At the moment, yes probably. She hasn't redeemed herself in our eyes at all--I mean, the only relevant action has been outing Thor's name, which is like, null at best, but anti-town at worst. If I were the speculating type, I'd be speculating that elle is part of the mafia and they know they have a traitor out there.

Also, people were jumping to claim it being a scum slip that the scum team were made up of wights, which is impossible. Faraday picks roles first in upicks. Then he picks alignments. A wight could be town, while Rob Stark could be scum.

Correct me if I'm wrong--it's been a year or two since I read the novels last--but the wights are essentially zombies, no? Is there not a point where Jon kills a dude and he literally comes back as a wight minutes later? The point being that "Wights" is perfect scum flavor in a UPick game--they look like their character's likeness simply because they are literally them, just frozen-zombie them.

Here you again stand behind your vote in one part, and show why your vote is based off of faulty info in the other. If wights would be perfect for a game like this, why would one person be scum for throwing that out there for a potential scum team? If it does exist, and she is one of them, do you think that she would really fuck up that big to use the word in a post? By the way, you voted for Elle in post #138, and had it parked there until #622. Just saying.

VOTE: Cephrir

I'm sheeping you, SyrGod. Im going to defer to you when SSK asks me why were lynching Ceph though, k?

BTW I have Alfred and Cephrir as like completely null at the moment. Don't do anything scummy, or I might actually go all tempo on your ass Syryana.

This seems like another vote that you are making, yet putting the reasoning on someone else. It would be nice to see a vote that you actually believe in and could put some weight behind. The way you have played so far just looks like you are trying to avoid culpability if things didn't turn out the way they were intended.

I apologize for my/our "lack of scumhunting", this game has kinda been boring me--the content in this game is kinda dense, which intimidates me. Lots of unfamiliar faces too. If it can help you guys, I can give a 'reads' list like others if it's wished, but meh.

You are bored and intimidated by the dense content and unfamiliar faces. You can contribute if we ask you nicely, but meh. Wonderful post.

FINALLY got to hash stuff out with SSK last night. He said he'd post later today, so I'll just do some cliff notes at the moment.

-I didn't like macmollie in Castle and I don't like her here, I think it's a matter of personality/style clashing, though, so I'm defering to SSK for now. SSK has a VERY slight scum leaning on her, due to her heavy push on someone who we consider one of the strongest townreads.

Having the view of MM that we do, using your own logic would explain why you are on my list at least.

I feel like you jumped on a slip that wasn't a slip, acknowledged how the concept is fully possible and would even make a hell of a lot of sense. Your slot views one of our agreed upon reads as scummy. Repeatedly mentioned your role restriction. And your votes have been garbage and it doesn't seem like a single one of them is a vote that you actually believe in.

[Messiah Complex]

Forgot to sign that one.

-FF

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah, you arent voting Garruk after that post?

Desp and I agreed that we wouldn't vote without the other heads approval, I'm waiting to hear back from him right now. Fully expect a vote on Garruk in the near future though.

Damnit.

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah, you arent voting Garruk after that post?

I'm not as convinced that Garruk is scum, we aren't interested in voting you or Thor, and zdenek is a read we both agree on so our vote stays there.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

First thing firsts looking at recent VC and 3 days to go ~ I am happy to join the Thor wagon, I agree with Benmage's 518 and D1 is the only optimal time to do so.

Vote: Thor665

a fucking policy lynch

SD town read redacted.

Messiah, you arent voting Garruk after that post?

Desp and I agreed that we wouldn't vote without the other heads approval, I'm waiting to hear back from him right now. Fully expect a vote on Garruk in the near future though.

I don't think garruk is a good vote today. I've seen both heads as town recently and their play isn't out of step for either.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

What's strange about it? I'm not "noping it," I'm saying that I'm reading them differently.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

You've never seen a hydra disagree on a read?

[Messiah Complex]

Lol, if you wont lynch a miller claim then you wont run up me. Unless, double-standards!

Anyway if you do, prefer it to be after dinner. Claim then if needed.

Unvote
Vote: SafetyDance

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Have you attempted to breakdown what he's doing as logical scum play?

Not logical scum play but posts in Page 65 read as emotional scum going "This is what you're lynching me for?". Blaming "meta" and the "Policy lynch" reply to quads.

His complete mockery of the situation is towntelling as fuck.

No it isn't.

P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

Meek players don't necessarily stay meek. "He clammed up under pressure that one time" doesn't mean he's obvtown now. Look at the content of his reaction and really evaluate your townread.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Tammy, if you read this, you need to seriously step away for a bit and calm down. This reminds me exactly of how mad I got at Saki in Xenologue to the point where I ended up not giving a shit about the dude's alignment and that ended up at least partially contributing to the loss there. Regfan went and pointed out every single one of Saki's towntells after it was over and I felt like an idiot (well, to a point).

SafetyDance just flat out isn't scum and I think you'll be able to see that once you go over this recent stuff again.

???

SD is doing everything he can to survive while depriving the town of as much information as possible <----scum mindset

[Messiah Complex]

Meek players don't necessarily stay meek. "He clammed up under pressure that one time" doesn't mean he's obvtown now. Look at the content of his reaction and really evaluate your townread.

Except the scum game I looked at (same one mollie linked) happened recently (it began on June 28th).

Unless you're going to make the argument that he's improved his scum game to the point where he's able to react like this now as scum,

this argument doesn't hold water.

P-edit: Jesus christ, I literally saw this guy get accused of and wagoned for doing the exact same thing as town in The Wire. I townread him correctly there and I'm pretty damn sure I'm right now.

P-editx2: I don't know Tierce, let me think about it for a bit since shit's getting real now.

If you feel confident enough in calling this a 1 to 1 situation then I have absolutely no issue making the argument that he's approaching the same situation differently with the knowledge of the previous game in mind. He got lynched after clamming up, right?

How am I not looking deeply enough Tierce? I'm looking at SD's content, or lack thereof. He has Syry as uber town and Thor as a policy lynch. He has no read on Ooba, the other main wagon. He has no read on you or Tammy, the two people who orchestrated the push on him just now. How is any of this coming from the mindset of "I'm town and about to die?"

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Except meta doesn't work that way -- you're implicitly making the argument that his meta is irrelevant because it is easily manipulable which is just wrong for a variety of reasons I don't have the time to get into now, not the least of which is Safety's competency (or lack thereof).

You don't have "meta" on SD, you have one game where he did this thing once.

SafetyDance is a human being who is obviously capable of adapting his persona on the internet. If you have a single game where he was pressured as scum and clammed up that JUST finished, you cannot definitively say "he will always clam up to pressure as scum unless he's REALLY improved." #1 it wouldn't require any improvement to identify this situation as similar to one in which he just failed and to react oppositely. #2 one game isn't a sample size. Maybe he had a bad day and couldn't handle it that game. Maybe maybe maybe.

In this game, he came back into a 60 page thread with a bullshit policy vote and then referred to himself as a policy lynch in an attempt to diffuse pressure on him, had to be goaded into claiming, refused to give reads even though he's resigned himself to death, and left with a promise not to return before deadline. He's scum.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

hey benny!

you. I like you.

I don't know how many times I have said on this site that the most important town skill a player can have is discerning the difference between town flail and scum flail.

I still think how somehow tammy's meta case based off of 1 game that she didn't even play when he was only the site for 2 months is somehow more valid than mine where I have played with him as scum, against him as scum and both of us town. but hey what the fuck do I know.

Unvote

Oh my god, I want this guy to be scum so so fucking badly but I just can't bring myself to keep my vote on him. Based on what I know of him, I'll be absolutely fucking floored if he's reacting this way as scum.

Thor's probably the least bad of the major wagons right now since my last talk with 'marble had lessened my scumread on ooba considerably.

Vote: Thor

One of 'marble/myself will be around near deadline, I think, if anything happens.

P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

Same thoughts on the reaction. It's especially the "I told you so" attitude. Why wouldn't he claim a role he thought had a better chance of escaping the lynch? Doesn't make sense, he doesn't seem like the kind of scum player who would do that as an extra layer of WIFOM.

I think Thor is Town--the stuff he's been accused at is the kind of thing he does regardless of alignment. Not voting there unless we need that vote by deadline.

Thoughts on Messiah Complex?

1671 bothers me, he's not looking deeply enough

.

it bothers me too and if desp stopped and thought about it for a minute he would probably know why.

they are off of my like list.

VOTE: thor

I don't like how vague you're being and I don't like the implication that I'm not thinking about what's going on right now.

This shit isn't town flail.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@ Empire: You didn't add anything to your case with that work. He replaced out after 6 posts in HP and was never in danger of being lynched in Open 502. Do you generally put this much stock into single-game meta cases? I don't get you confidence here at all.

Also, @ bolded: fucking seriously? Self-meta is a huge towntell? And your interpretation ignores the context, which was him dodging Tammy's questions about his list-making meta even though he obviously knew about Slimer mafia while he was doing the dodging. He knew Tammy's 1440 existed and he knew he had the answer to her question, but he ignored it and dicked around on a policy lynch instead, and then threw a hissy fit when he got wagoned for it.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I don't believe in the Thor wagon, as we've already said. Ooba isn't getting a vote from is either. Desperado made a judgement call on SD and I wasn't sold on it entirely, with his claim I am willing to give him a little room to work with. Garruk has been in my sights for a while, and he hasn't done anything to clear himself in my eyes.

Unvote

Vote: Garruk

[Messiah Complex]

Sorry, I'm not used to having to sign posts. I also thought that one was pretty obviously from me.

-FF

[Messiah Complex]

We find it highly unlikely that there would be no N1 deaths in a multiball setup.

I don't want to lynch SD anymore.

Did Syry get replaced by Alchemist or is that mechanical?

@ Garruk: It's D2. Drop some towntells so I can decide if I need to tell Fish to back off or not.

@ Nautilius: Why did you end up on Thor and why did you quote Tammy's post when you did?

Vote: Cephrir

PEdit: PNJ's 1824 is really yucky. Why are Amrun and Ooba scum?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

The lack of deaths last night is worrisome to me. I haven't figured out how to parse it yet--I need to see today's end first before I can start setup speccing in full.

And, Tammy, I have strong reason to suspect that Tierce is town. Don't want to go into more detail at the moment, but, yeah. I refuse to support that lynch today.

Good with both Amrun and Ooba though.

Really not liking all of these people who ended up on Thor that are good with both Amrun and ooba as well.

[Messiah Complex]

Why Amrun though?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So you posit that Amrunscum voted his Oobascum partner and then immediately and awkwardly switched it while admitting he hasn't read the thread?

Still don't see how 1565 is scummy.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I do scum one at a time. I'd say amrun voting a preferable wagon and then changing on a whim is scummy. Because town doesn't do that.

Are you sure? Why is Amrunscum being so careless with their vote? Anything that ends with "on a whim" is typically on the town spectrum for me.

And ooba's post is scummy because it's defeatist.

This doesn't make any sense. Oobascum had just dodged a D1 lynch. Why would she feel defeated enough for it to show through in her posts? I think it's a lot more reasonable to say that Ooba is town who got taken out of their rhythm by early pressure and it colored their perception of the day.

[Messiah Complex]

I don't want to lynch SD anymore.

What changed your mind?

He sent a rabbit to us and I don't think a scum JOAT would use the fruit vendor ability N1.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I didn't say he was exonerated, I said I don't want to lynch him anymore.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

And sweet mercy;

@Entire Thread - I know most of you are on top of this, but allow me this moment.

[sarcasm]Nameclaim: Casso, King of the Seals[/sarcasm]

That is all.

@Elle - that all said, you wanted the name claim to...scumhunt me in some manner...you apparently did nothing with it besides just going 'that's a weird claim...must be legit!'
Did I miss something?

Here is the post where he explicitly states he was being sarcastic. He made allusions to it being a fake name claim in like 4 other posts.

[Messiah Complex]

Why Amrun though?

- Des

Amrun is the lesser of the two, but I've had a gut scum read on her since the beginning of the game(I've mentioned this as well). As well, the faces on the Amrun train engender more hope to me than the faces on ooba at the moment. I know Amrun-scum lurks a lot more than town-Amrun, and, well, she's lurking hard this game(V/LA excuse time has run out).

@Tierce: Once, only.

Do your homework. Life is eating me up and spitting me out right now, and it's felt in every game -- modded games, all played games. It's completely alignment irrelevant. It's unfortunate, and it sucks, and it SHOULD be set to improve here after I am not sick anymore. My back is finally doing pretty good but I have a fever and have been awake roughly 4 collective hours today. That's not important; what's important is that this post is scummy.

This is a lazy push that feels like an under-the-cuff attempt to discredit the flash wagon on you yesterday where kanye is irreproachable.

PnJ still scummy. "Oh, Amrun's always scum." Puh-leaze.

Yup, Amrun is town.

##Vote: Alfred

I need you to answer one question for me, who are you?

You know, I'd be madder about Thor's wagon because of the miller thing etc, except uhm. Did no one notice that he kind of.. lied about who he was? I'm not a Game of Thrones scolar but that didn't look like the King of the Seals did it? It was still a terrible wagon for other reasons but I don't think over the top posts about how dare a liar get lynched are going to find teh scums.

Amrun are you going to vote all the people voting you because you suck, because that's what your vote looks like and there's a long list if you want to catch them all.

Why did you vote Alfred and

then

ask him a seemingly innocuous question that likely isn't (as evidenced by the vote)?

The middle paragraph...putting aside the misunderstanding, what was your point here? Particularly the last sentence.

And the last paragraph is classic mudsling.

I am not as comfy as the rest of you people are with goat people's claim. it could very easily be a fake claim and by all means I don't think he should be allowed to skate. their start of the day post "oh I need to fleeeeeeps" kind of sounded like a bit like reverse cheerleading but not quite. hhhmmm....

who was it that said that displaced did not look scummy was it alfred

sd, syrlacious was kidnapped/silenced/abducted by aliens or something I am leaning probably town

VOTE: garruck

I don't think Goat's information is alignment relevant. Who appears to be letting them skate by on their "claim?"

@ Nautilius: I would expect a scum JOAT to at least pretend to want to hold on to the fruit for a chance to confirm himself as town later in the game. Sending it N1 is like a giant middle finger with an "I'M TOWN, ASSHOLE" banner attached.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Post 1833 from Messiah is a weird and possibly bad post. "I don't like that people who hopped on the deadline wagon are on wagons of people I think are town" is what it seems like you're saying, and I don't see any possible use of that connection. Splain?

As mentioned by others, this is also a terrible post. I fail to see how using a fruitvend is anything other than a null tell.

Desperado made both if those posts, and while I have a pretty good idea of where he was coming from, I am going to have to talk with him to make sure I don't say anything that is untrue. We should have a chance to catch each other tomorrow.

[Messiah Complex]

@ PNJ: If that's all you think I'm doing, why don't you just leave me alone and let me dig myself a hole?

@ Quadz et al: I already said that I would expect a scum JOAT to hang on to his fruit vend to at least pretend like he might try to use it to confirm himself as town, which is the only positive benefit of a fruit. Yelling at me and calling it "bad" because that's null and not townie without actually engaging my reasons for why I think what I think is pretty scummy

@ mollie: Can you talk to me about Goat people?

Unvote
Vote: Nautilis

Really don't like how you've had us in your potential scum pool all game but have made almost 0 effort to sort us.

Why is Amrun scummy? What's changed from your lynch pool list from yesterday?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Also, Amrun's "I can't believe you people think I'm scum because of a sitewide activity issue" was super town because I went through something extremely similar and I never ever would have considered saying it in a scum game. She probably knew it would look bad as she was giving the excuse and she didn't give a shit because she thought the suspicion on her really was that ridiculous--towntowntown.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Why are they bad? Do you have a Nautilus-town case that I missed? There better be one because I don't understand why you'd feel the need to stop a wagon at 3 votes unless you had an extremely strong townread on them.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Oh dear lord.

Also, Amrun's "I can't believe you people think I'm scum because of a sitewide activity issue" was super town because I went through something extremely similar and I never ever would have considered saying it in a scum game. She probably knew it would look bad as she was giving the excuse and she didn't give a shit because she thought the suspicion on her really was that ridiculous--towntowntown.

- Des

You're wrong.

A lot of Messiah's thoughts seem really contrived.

I know what it's like to be totally bogged down by too many games and too many real life responsibilities, and I never ever ever would have considered using them as an excuse as scum. I presume you have some statistical evidence that proves I'm wrong about this, yeah?

@ Quadz et al: I already said that I would expect a scum JOAT to hang on to his fruit vend to at least pretend like he might try to use it to confirm himself as town, which is the only positive benefit of a fruit. Yelling at me and calling it "bad" because that's null and not townie without actually engaging my reasons for why I think what I think is pretty scummy

You mean this?

@ Nautilius: I would expect a scum JOAT to at least pretend to want to hold on to the fruit for a chance to confirm himself as town later in the game. Sending it N1 is like a giant middle finger with an "I'M TOWN, ASSHOLE" banner attached.

I do not see why doing the thing that is the opposite of what you say town should do makes him town. Would you like to tell me again that your logic isn't bad?

What the fuck are you talking about? I am saying that a scum JOAT would not use his fruit N1. SD used his fruit N1. Ergo I think he's town.

@ Agar: sigh....what's "...no" about it?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Also, Amrun's "I can't believe you people think I'm scum because of a sitewide activity issue" was super town because I went through something extremely similar and I never ever would have considered saying it in a scum game. She probably knew it would look bad as she was giving the excuse and she didn't give a shit because she thought the suspicion on her really was that ridiculous--towntowntown.

- Des

She does it regardless of alignment.

That's great, does she sound as perfectly frustrated-town as she did in her responses to Nautilius as both alignments also?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

That doesn't really answer my question though. Are you saying definitively that she's good enough to fake that as scum?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

You are saying he would not use his fruit N1 because town wouldn't use their fruit N1. You are literally saying "he is town for making a suboptimal town play, because scum would make the optimal town play." Do you not see where the logic falls apart?

Yes, that is literally what I am saying. There is more town motivation to using the fruit N1 than scum. What aren't you getting about this?

I think you're town now.
I was sort of hoping we could Walking Dead this game and keeping you in the pool was my hint to you. I know that people can be lurky as town though, so I've just been waiting for you to be cool and town it up for me.

Amrun is scum because she's lurking like hell and doesn't know why I find that suspicious.

I think Walking Dead was a unique situation that isn't likely to replicate itself--if you look back our D1 townblock is almost entirely the group of people that were most active during the 4 hour D1--maybe it was just circumstances or coincidence, but the town was really, REALLY ready to start playing that game and all of the scum got left out completely (sans Thor). I don't see that sort of situation happening here, do you?

Personally I appreciate humongous note dumps. Just make it better than Messiah's if you're going to do that.

Keep beating that drum.

@ Ooba: How is you scumreading me for "overjustifying a townread" where a town would just say "gut/vibe" any different from what you're accusing me of? We are both re-purposing a subjective conclusion (Town/Scum would/wouldn't do X) in order to produce an objective determination in pursuit of read clarity. Are you basically saying that it's scummy that I have townreads?

Unvote
Vote: Displaced

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Er,

Vote: Spyrex

[Messiah Complex]

You are saying he would not use his fruit N1 because town wouldn't use their fruit N1. You are literally saying "he is town for making a suboptimal town play, because scum would make the optimal town play." Do you not see where the logic falls apart?

Yes, that is literally what I am saying. There is more town motivation to using the fruit N1 than scum. What aren't you getting about this?

Can someone else help me out here? Is my point difficult to understand, or incorrect? Clearly Desp and I aren't seeing eye-to-eye on this, and I am completely at a loss on how to make him understand my point.

Let me try again. I think town JOAT would be more likely to hang on to their investigative 1-Shots for when they have more information, whereas scum have incentive to use those abilities early (especially SD's track/roleblock combo) while they're a) still alive and b) have the most opportunity to hit town PRs. In addition to this, SD sending his fruit to us specifically read,

to me

, like a giant "I'M TOWN" sign. Taken together, I concluded that SD is more likely to be a town JOAT than a scum JOAT and don't want to lynch him anymore.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

SD used his one shot fruit vendor ability to send us a rabbit.

[Messiah Complex]

This is just wrong - They don't have to interact so there to be links between them. Messiah's "Oh no! Peace is also voting SM - I'm off this wagon" was strange. Messiah's future posts generally suspicious\questions others (like Cephrir) but not Peace's slot - in fact it's not mentioned at all.
Note: Messiah's D2 vote on displaced after I point this out is kinda dodgy too.

Let's look at what actually happened:

@ macmollie: the safetydance wagon is totally whack, I agree. What're you seeing with Stup? Is it because the wagon's been a little too easy? Because I feel like Nautilus, Cephrir, and Goat all basically just sheeped it and it's making me uneasy. And who are you looking at if not them?

mebbe he comes off as forced cos he is newbtown worried about getting lynched.

or you mebbe right and he is scum and his scummates are trying to bus him.

there are actually a lot of reasons why he may across as "forced" but it may have nothing to do with his alignment.

he seems new. he seems like he is trying to find his way. <-----no way I am voting that, if he did something outstandingly scummy then yeah but he hasn't.that is why if he flips scum I will think it is a bus and if he flips town we know where to look.

Yeah, Peace being the 4th one who seemingly divined that Stup was scum upon reread is enough for me to go elsewhere.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

- Des

And Peace had already replaced out by the time this exchance occurred, followed by displaced doing approximately nothing until he got replaced himself, so what exactly should I have been mentioning about the slot that you think I was missing?

What did you point out and what was dodgy about the vote?

Vote: Elle

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Why did scum want mollie dead?

Because no one had them as scum and they were afraid of mollie coordinating a townbloc, which she had already begun to do yesterday.

I don't think I've ever seen mollie survive past D2 as town.

[Messiah Complex]

Why vote a slot that cannot answer back?

To pressure his replacement. I was voting Displaced/Spyrex based on mollie's peace-might-replaceout-as-scum catch. I had reason to believe this might be an accurate tell. Why do I need to have mentioned someone previously before placing a vote?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Is enough. It takes a particularly ticklish brand of stones to call out the hammer even if it was fast. Someone with more time: I'd love to see if there was activity from anyone on the wagon after Garruk posted and BEFORE I hammered.

And as for yesterdays hammer. Yea, I was only on 12. Now that I'm all caught up the only thing that would have given me pause is that there is no flips.

And I say pause. Because I would have still done it. Amrun was in my notes (which if someone reaaaaaaly wants to see and laugh at I guess I can post) from post 1 and that never changed. Riding the lurking dragon doesn't change that.

More importantly though: I have role-reasons for wanting that hammer. I also want this one.

I am struggling to find the words to describe how I feel about your comment on someone having the "balls" to call out your hammer. I guess the best way to put it is that you must have a brass set yourself to try and make someone out to be the reactionary one when your action was questionable at best and a pure scum move at worst. You admit that you were 12 pages deep when you flipped over to the last page to see Amrun at L-1 and, lucky day, hammered.

I also like the fact that you ask someone with more time to investigate what activity happened in thread after Garruk gave intent to hammer and your hammer, like there was so much activity that it would be impossible for you to wade through. Two posts were made in between his intent and your hammer. Two. One of them was a vote count update from the Mod, the other was a quick question from Cephrir. Then you pop in and hammer. And what excuse do you have for this action? A Monday Morning QB read on Amrun that you made postmortem and a vague reference to hammers relating to your role. We think that the reason that you are unable to adequately explain yourself is because there was no town motivation behind what you did. You cut short a townies ability to post when they had said they were going to, and someone else had already called them out and put a deadline on their activity. Hell, if you wanted to hammer you still could have after giving Amrun some time to complete the post she said she was doing. Does your role say anything about not being able to declare intent, or preventing them from claiming. The only reason we can figure you hammering the way you did was to prevent Amrun from being able to reveal any information that could be beneficial to the rest of us.

We believe that there is credence to the theory that Peace replaces out as scum where he wouldn't as town, and see his reason for replacing out to be suspect. Adding that to the absolute void that was displaced, and the abomination of a hammer and subsequently shitty response to town reactions from Spy there is no dissidence when we

Unvote

Vote: Spy

[Messiah Complex]

-Fishy

[Messiah Complex]

@ Shadow: The actions themselves are null. The ways in which Peace/Spy went about them are scummy as fuck. Why aren't you getting this and why are you going out of your way to misunderstand our position?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

To whit: Spy isn't scum

because

he hammered, he's scum because his hammer deprived the town of: setup information via Amrun's claim, Amrun's now-confirmed-town final reads, and most importantly, the potential for us to have

not lynched town yesterday because Arya was probably a power role and few (if any) were actually interested in lynching Amrun to begin with.

Sticking your head in the sand and screaming "NULL!!!!!!!!!!!" is seriously missing the point.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I don't really have one right now, that's the problem. What I do have isn't big enough to accomplish anything by itself :/

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Before I read on this I just want to talk about how this bothers me. He thinks mollie was killed because she was starting to coordinate the townblock and yet makes no effort to coordinate one himself?

I don't want to die

The only people I would reject outright from your list are Goat and Ceph--Goat people didn't do anything, claimed that six anti-town players are in the game, and then continued to do nothing, and Ceph and I clearly aren't seeing eye to eye here. SD and Ben are the two I feel best about, and I would add Kanye and Stupendous.

All those reasons the hammer was awful still don't matter because they wouldn't stop someone trolling for hammers. It's still impossible for a town-Spy to have known he was hammering town, so it's not a fair point to hold against someone.

You have got to be fucking kidding me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=29483

Reckoner quickhammers TWICE, gets away with it, endgames town in LYLO (A+ fakeclaim) for the W

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=30429

I quickhammer the unclaimed town BG, teammates endgame town in LYLO for the W

The bottom line is that Spyrex's hammer is

teeming

with scum motivation, and the fact that your counterargument is literally "Town still trollhammer so it's null, try harder!" is totally and completely asinine. We're lynching Spyrex today, end of story.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Also, you don't want me in your townblock because you and I are disagreeing, but you do want Stupendous, who couldn't scumhunt his way out of a paper bag? For real?

I don't understand what this is. What do you think a townblock is and what was going through your head when you asked me these questions?

Also it sounds like you're saying Stup can't be town because he can't scumhunt, but that would be ridiculous. So what were you actually trying to say?

Yes, there is scum motivation. Town do still do it, though. I'm sure I could easily produce examples of this too if I felt like it. It's not enough to lynch on. I understand there are unrelated suspicions on the slot, and that's legitimate.

It's ironic that you won't brook any counterargument for lynching SpyreX when, you know, you're lynching him for lynching someone without waiting for a counterargument.

And frankly I find the "here's two examples of deliberate scum quickhammers so that must be what's happeneing here" logic disingenuous.

That isn't what irony is and the two situations aren't even remotely comparable.

And what I presented isn't "logic," it's evidence--that scum can and will take opportunities to quickhammer if it benefits them, especially if they think they can talk their way out of it on the other side (which Spyrex clearly does). And given the limited information Spy has provided, the quickhammer

only

benefitted him as scum.

I'm going to reiterate that:

the quickhammer

only

benefitted him if he got a scum role PM.

If he really was town whose power hinges on his having the (or multiple) hammer(s), he could have just...waited. And hammered later. But he didn't. Because he's scum.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

What's the point of a townblock if not to work together to figure out who the scum are? Can one not call someone town without including them in such a group? I guess I could be wrong here.

On first read your original post sounded like it was calling me town but on a different wavelength, though I suppose given your past posts this probably isn't what you meant.

The point of a townblock is to not lynch town and lynch scum. Stup's ability to scumhunt is irrelevant. I don't understand your other question.

The situations are very comparable, even if "counterargument" wasn't incredibly good word choice on my part. The no-matter-what attitude precludes claims.

No, they aren't, and no, it doesn't. Do you really think I meant that I would not take new evidence into account whatsoever?

PS are you getting tired from all the goalposts that you're moving?

You're right, it is literally impossible that town would do this.

Oh wait no town quickhammer all the time.

Not everyone acts in a way that benefits them all the time. Actors are not perfectly rational. This argument is fucking terrible. And there are decent arguments for the same thing floating around but you're still latching on to the one easy, really salient point. Color me unimpressed.

I know town quickhammer all the time. Majiffy's dipshit quickhammer in Two Room II could have cost town the game if the scum ever got any NKs off. But

this

hammer, in

this specific situation

came from scum. Spyrex claims to have a role that interacts with hammers, and the town argument goes "He, as town, needed to hammer quickly in order to ensure he could access his ability." That is the extent of the town motivation for the quickhammer, and it is rendered moot with the counterargument "Garruk had already expressed intent with a timeline and no one else was likely to jump the gun, so town-Spyrex could have given Amrun enough time to produce her content but chose not to."

You're taking your own thought, which appears to be that if you were to do a quickhammer it would be super scum motivated, plus something that happened recently, and deciding that means it happening again is a 100% scumtell. They're not the same situation.

The actual act of hammering was not scummy. I am not disputing this. But the town motivation for doing it

when he did it, given what we know about his role

is nonexistent.

I'm going to reiterate that:

the quickhammer

only

benefitted him if he got a scum role PM.

This isn't entirely true: Garruk had put a 12-hour timer on the hammer. Other people were vocally frustrated with Amrun and not quite there on voting yet. Someone else could've easily swooped in pulled the trigger (I was taking a calculated gamble putting that L-1 vote on Amrun, but I was worried about the wrong subset of players - and when Garruk put the twelve hour cap on, I decided to leave the vote and go to bed. I wasn't aware of SpyreX's fast-hammer tendencies).

Obviously I don't agree. If anything I find it more likely that someone on the wagon who didn't really believe Amrun was scum and was just voting to pressure her for content would have unvoted before someone else quickhammered. And this speculation isn't even considering the possibility of Spyrex taking control of the hammer without outing himself, but maybe that's just me expecting too much.

If I were to go through my game history and find examples of me doing exactly this as either alignment (I may? have even done this as cult and SK before) - what is your new argument? You've laid down an absolute, and short of some form of "bad player lolz" I'm not seeing your exit strategy.

If that isn't good enough and this game is going to continue I'll make you one more offer: If I am lynched and flip town, you get lynched next. Are you that committed to this nonsense?

If not, take a step back and look whats happening. You want to come at me for actual reasons, fine. This stops.

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

No.

The fact that it even crossed your mind to offer this sort of deal when you (presumably) don't know my alignment is scummy as fuck. With that said, if you were to miraculously flip town, I would do the same thing I do every other time I lead a mislynch--forget about it and get back to finding scum.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

This head'll be able to post more on Sunday. Finishing up 8 days straight of working a new job. Rereading Agar and looking at the votes so far for each lynch. Still think we should vote Spy.

I will ask this question though, Agar are you saying that because of his standing on this site that Spy gets a pass on actions we deem scummy because we aren't part of this ubermensch?

-fishy

[Messiah Complex]

*passes through with a Spyrex For Scum picket sign*

Hey, this isn't doing jack shit for anyone. If you actually want to help me get him lynched you should start putting in the same kind of time you did pussy footing around with Thor D1.

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

Your argument here hinges on "SpyreX spent 4+ years quickhammering just so he could troll one game in 2013."

You do realize that, right?

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

I support the SpyreX wagon but like my lonely vote on Nautilius better for now.

What do you like about it? It certainly isn't accomplishing anything.

Zednek is a horrible lynch. I don't have have the same level of confidence with AGar but he shouldn't be today's lynch too.

"Horrible" is a strong word choice--can you talk some more about/link to your Zdenek town case?

Allllll the procrastinators.

tammy your scum reads are really terrible this game.

40% accuracy is not terrible.

@ AGar, re: 2498: I'm confused. You make it pretty clear that you know who Spyrex is and have formed an opinion of his play, but then you say that you didn't expect Spyrex to quickahmmer because "the competent players aren't going to do anything stupid." But everyone is contending that Spyrex's meta = town trollhammers all day err day. Explain?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

But no one's really biting on Naut because they're town and your case (correct me if I'm wrong, but Naut is scum because Nacho isn't hunting scum) is weak/borderline irrational.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So messiah, have you actually made an argument yet that doesn't boil down to "because I said so"? Seeing as you basically admit to having no argument in 2523.

Incredible misrep. Is there a reason you didn't quote my 2523 so that everyone would have been able to see it for themselves?

My argument has been clear from the beginning--Spyrex's hammer is oozing in scum motivation and doesn't make any sense from a town-Spyrex perspective given what he's said about his role and hammers. He could have accomplished the same thing (hammering someone) while also waiting for Amrun to provide content and he didn't. The protown move was right there in front of him and he went another way.

No one has satisfactorily argued against this and told me why townSpyrex who needs to hammer people to get his ability going handled the situation the way he did.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

I'll help you out then. Cephrir's thinks this is me "basically admitting" I have no argument. He says this in reference to my read on Spyrex as a whole, then AGar was clearly critiquing a remote portion of the case that only appeared because Spyrex tried to self-meta his way out of my accusations.

I look forward to your thoughts on why townSpy did what he did how he did it.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

More importantly though: I have role-reasons for wanting that hammer. I also want this one.

What does that mean to you then?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

Yeah, I hear ya.

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

So why is it more questionable that despite the fact that I've already said

why

I feel like he should be lynched and

why

I'm on the wagon than those that haven't?

You seem to dislike my comment on the procrastination going on in reference to all those that haven't taken a stand and are just sitting back prod dodging as time ticks by so that we're put into yet another loldeadline situation. We have 4 people that aren't even voting and another 4 on solo votes - a good majority of those that aren't doing crap all. Yet

I'm

the one not helping you?

Welp. It is what is it, then.

It's more questionable because you're posting to show that you're still here but you aren't actually doing anything. Popping in to walk through the thread of a lynch-spy picket sign is actively making it more difficult to get him lynched, because it makes you look lazy and it makes the wagon look less appealing to undecideds. So if you want to help, and you're going to call out other people who you feel are procrastinating, then you either need to start scumhunting those people, or put more effort into getting Spy lynched.

When did you start town reading Nautilus?

Around the time Nacho started obvtowning all over the thread. Did you miss all that?

@ AGar: OK, thank you for the explanation. We will lynch Zdenek with you if Spyrex can't become a reality.

@ Spyrex: Yeah, pretty much. That's how the game goes. What would you expect me to do if you flipped town, crawl into a hole?

@ Ooba: Too scummy to be scum? Nah. That's exactly the kind of person who should be today's lynch if we mistakenly let Spyrex escape this. Your other points on Spy are good though, because I feel like other players are consistently misinterpreting what we are saying. Even Spy in 2574 is still pushing the erroneous "You think this hammer could ONLY come from scum" when our argument is much more nuanced than that--this

particular

hammer can only come from scum because town-Spyrex whose role requires him to hammer people in order to access his ability had several, infinitely more protown options available to him in that situation and he said "fuck that, let's give the town the least amount of information possible."

whoops

[Messiah Complex]

VOTE: Benmage

This day feels all wrong. I no longer like any of the wagons. I want to go in a totally opposite direction.

I want a lynch like on the 2nd day of the Balto invitational, to go to a place where no one particularly looks or scrutinizes. I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny. I'm just reminded of the wire.

Why Ben? We've been reading him as very town for a bit now. What are you seeing that we aren't? Are these feelings you've been having all along or something you just came to?

-fishy

[Messiah Complex]

...

Of course, you hold the key to this whole thing, no?

I at least have part of the key. It's really the alchemists place to answer questions about him, but if he doesn't show up this evening and clear some of this up and do something, I'll clear up some of it because it's getting ridiculous.

I think that it's pretty apparent that he isn't going to be saying much. What do you/we gain from withholding the information you have? Would it be revealing more than you'd be willing to give?

Reading back through Alchemists ISO is like riding through a ghost town, things are there but at the same time they are just not. I would need to talk with Desp to solidify this, but I'd be fine with voting Alchemist unless he provides some significant content.

[Messiah Complex]

Unvote

Vote: Alchemist

You've prod dodged your way through the past few days, or simply acknowledged that you'd been prodded. There has been plenty going on that you could comment on, but instead you choose to push an empty lynch on Agar. You have the ability to shed some light on what is going on with you but instead are just dumbfounded that anyone could be finding you scummy right now. Do you have anything legitimate to add or are you going yo continue with this shoddy play style?

[Messiah Complex]

And I would rather Syryana give his killing coin away before he dies.

Yup.

Unvote
Vote: Spyrex

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

You confirmed 1/3 of your role to keep yourself alive instead of using it to give a vig shot to someone and keep chatting with Tammy. Besides, people like vig shots and it does look like your shitty non-self controlled ninja vig is going to buy you two days.

Well, yeah. If I died with Tammy, I couldn't do my vig. I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

It sounds like she is trying to say that by commuting and transforming you wasted time you could have used to send out the coin and have been sent out to kill already. Instead you chose to do what you did, then wasted all of our time by playing the way you have.

[Messiah Complex]

Unvote

I need to sleep+think. These claims change things.

VOTE: SpyreX

Garruk, you put spy at l-1, Cephrir was the hammer. We are just waiting for that glorious flip right now.

[Messiah Complex]

No, I'm pretty confidant in calling it terrible right now. Live by the hammer, die by the hammer and all that.

Funny that you were on the Thor mislynch, and the Amrun mislynch. I was hoping that you wouldn't be on this lynch, it would be more poetic if you weren't when Spy flips scum.

[Messiah Complex]

@Cephrir- posting from the stall at work so I'll be brief. How can you say that Spy put Zdek around the middle when the heading for the list he has Zdek on is people who need to die? That seems like he is calling Zdek scum to me. Spy had ooba in the same marked for death list.

More when I get home/ tomorrow.

[Messiah Complex]

Prod acknowledgement. Will have time to catch up and post tomorrow. I haven't had a chance to talk to Deep. in the past few days, which I take to mean he is busy atm as well.

[Messiah Complex]

So this SD wagon has run its course, right? And we can all get back to finding scum?

I'm still in the process of putting together a Spyrex analysis that should be fruitful.

Looks like Ooba beat me to the punch a little bit, at least as far as Quadz was concerned, and his response was super, super weak. Yes, opinions change--why are you making Ooba chase you for the reasons why when he's already made it clear that your change of opinion was scummy?

Vote: Quadz

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@ Goat: I didn't really care for that analysis. I was talking more about analyzing everyone's trajectory on Spyrex the entire day, not just lazily quoting various attempts to derail his wagon, which appears to be Cephrir's only criteria for scummy behavior re: Spyrex.

@ Tierce: He fucking used Titus' format and linked to the posts where he told us what he did. The only reason you are still confused is because you choose to be.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Goat here is actually me. It's the same thing you were suggesting doing. The people derailing the wagon are important, because its those that jump on that look like bussing. Such as Goat and GR.

And it was Tammy's format, not Titus. Titus is more confused than Tierce atm.

Cephrir is scumreading the people derailing the wagon, not the people bussing. This is why I think a long-form analysis on it will be good because I think it's a lot more complex than "scum were bussing/scum were derailing the spyrex wagon."

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah should probably be higher on that list but I look at Desperado and get spooked.

???

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

There seems ZERO reason not to give titus 1 night... if theres a scum nk, we bag a confscum in Titus...

Otherwise titus reads town + genuine.

Agreed, so why don't you do something useful with your vote? We're not lynching Alchemist today either.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

to be clear titus.

Are you saying for one night you can redirect all night actions to yourself and reflexively block all of them without wasting anyone's shot? or block only the killing roles but allow other actions, investigative actions included, to go through without wasting anyone's (investigative/protective/killing/what-have-you) shots?

I redirect all actions to me, including kills. No oneshots (killing investigative or otherwise would be used). Cops get my flavor name. If there's a suspicious investigator, y'all can have him announce my flavor name. I would hope y'all can trust me. If not, we can use my ability tonight (which ooba suggested) and lynch Alchemist tomorrow when its obvious I was not lying.

You don't get to be town for telling the truth about your role in this game.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

There seems ZERO reason not to give titus 1 night.

There is.

It's called I can't replicate what happened last night tonight.

So what? If you're right and Titus is scum we either gain a free day or we lynch him tomorrow anyway.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

He hasn't stated it outright, but Tierce speculated that there was an alternative explanation for the missing kill last night and AGar has been pushing Titus as confscum ever since. Surely you can take it from there.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@ Kanye: I've definitely said something similar as town before.

One thing I have to question is whether a macho cop ever, in a million years, actually claims "macho cop". Might as well paste a "kill me" sign on your forehead.

Brilliant.

hmmm...

He claimed his Machoness so that town PRs wouldn't target him.

Unvote
Vote: Garruk

- Fish's early case
- Don't like their interactions with Spyrex--their main D3 push was on AGar for the L-1 vote, with some innocuous questions thrown at Spyrex that aren't ever followed up on...2911 was also a really awkward unvote
- Really shitty vote on SD when several people collectively lost their minds and thought he wasn't being clear about his actions with flimsy meta justifications
- And...

The most egregious one is investigating SD and that certainly anyone with half a brain could have gotten a read on via dayplay with the 10-man wagon on him. Moreover it was a claimed JOAT. why waste a cop on it, 'falling off the map' a pitiful excuse. Not that the others also weren't bad.

VOTE: Quadz

Bad.

Also, Tierce, I really need you to stop clearing people based off roleclaims. I know this is slightly hypocritical because my clear is based off roleclaim.

^That reads like scum who has been cleared as town by their roleclaim and wants to make sure the pool people who has been cleared that way stays as small as possible so that they don't have to start killing from within it (thus revealing that there is scum there).

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

How so?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

That's cool, but I don't think your opinion in this case is authoritative at all.

Thoughts on my Garruk vote?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Can someone please explain why SD has to be scum if Quadz is town?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

oooooooooooooo

i see it now thank you

have you updated your garruk read since 2358?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah, if you "see it now," why didn't you switch your vote?

We have 5 days left and there is nothing more to be gained from voting SD.

- des

[Messiah Complex]

.....

do you think he's scum or not? Or do you just think Garruk is scummier?

I think that either you or he is confirmed to have lied and we have better things to do than park our vote on half of a 1v1.

Ooba, why are you so invested in multiball when it's D4 and there's no indication that that's what we are dealing with?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Jesus christ.

One of you is still going to have lied five days from now when the deadline comes. I'm not in a rush to lynch right this second. Are you?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So on one hand you're saying you don't want to lynch right now, but on the other you're demanding that I vote one of you--presumably you would demand this of everyone else as well...which would result in a lynch right now, right?

Garruk has no incentive to respond to pressure if the focus is on you and SD. There's no reason to be voting either of you unless the intention is to end the day.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

They also have no incentive to respond to pressure if you publicly state you have no intention to lynch them, but that didn't stop you.

Where did I state that?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Messiah, I don't know if you've ever been on a wagon before, but *shocker* it's still

6 more votes

to lynch either one of us. Fear of a lynch is silly. If you think Garruk is scummier, just fucking say so, don't dance around it like a ballerina on a merry-go-round.

zzzzz

You and SD have essentially removed yourselves from the playing field. Voting for one of you right now would be a waste of time. I am doing something else. If we cannot agree on a lynch by the time the deadline arrives, we have a 1v1 ready to default to, which is a hell of a lot better than a panic deadline lynch.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

No, it implies what I just said--if we can't agree on a better lynch, then we can just default to SD/Quadz at the deadline.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

You aren't thinking long-term if you really believe that.

Lynching SD/Quadz today is not the right play.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I mean I'm pretty sure I did when I said I had better things to do than park my vote on half of a 1v1, you just didn't understand it.

What are your reads Quadz?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So let's look at this.
1. We have two opposing claims.
2. We have a claimed vig asking for targets.

...is this lynch really not obvious? VOTE: SafetyDance...again.

RE: Desperado: Not particularly worred at the moment. Debate with me tomorrow, okay? Your case is half weak--the most useful part, I'll admit, is my pussyfooting around SpyreX yesterday. I don't really have a good explanation for my actions, I was mostly going off gut. I STILL think Agar is scum, though.

How about the vig vigges one of SD/Quadz tonight and we do something else entirely today?

This is what I was talking about--Garruk has taken the easy way out, slapped a vote on SD and literally called it a day.

[Messiah Complex]

So do you advocate ending the day now or not?

Because Garruk is pressuring the lynch to go through and scheduling a date for tomorrow, which reads to me like they're done talking for today.

And for you to say that isn't scummy, you must agree that there is nothing left to accomplish today and we should just lynch SD--even when the option of leaving SD to a vig and getting an additional flip is available.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Why do we not want to clear up these opposing claims, Desp?

In any case, I'm not calling it a day. I think I've actually been more active today than other days. Your case has literally been half quoting my posts and saying "this is scummy".

...

I just said the vig can take care of it tonight, didn't I?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So do you advocate ending the day now or not?

Because Garruk is pressuring the lynch to go through and scheduling a date for tomorrow, which reads to me like they're done talking for today.

And for you to say that isn't scummy, you must agree that there is nothing left to accomplish today and we should just lynch SD--even when the option of leaving SD to a vig and getting an additional flip is available.

- Des

Why does every fucking day have to go to deadline? If we're calling random shit scummy, that's scummy.

I mean, we have a

clear and obvious

plan of attack today & tonight. I don't know why you're advocating leaving him for the vig? I mean, if you wanna play that game, why not just lynch SD and get an additional flip from the vig? Works both ways, bro.

No, it doesn't work both ways, because my plan gives us information about every slot regarding the flip, while your plan only gives us information on the Vig's slot regarding the flip. It is more efficient, and will produce more information, to rely on night play to sort out SD/Quadz and lynch literally anyone else today.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So what if it keeps going? SD/Quadz have confirmed themselves as a T/S pair--can you actually explain

why

we need to take care of it immediately?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

My burden of proof is that this is a uPick, not a Normal or a mechanic-driven game, and one of them has claimed cop who can't be protected. It's going to sort itself out, and wasting a day on lynching one of them is silly.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I'm not ignoring what's going on. SD is a complete non-threat and Quadz is a claimed cop that can't be protected. There is no incentive to waste a day lynching one when night play will, with near certainty, sort them for us--especially when the alternative (lynching another player) gives the town more information than flipping a coin in a 1v1 where all we know is that one person claimed something first, and then another something afterwards that implicated the first person as lying.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

quadz08 (9) -

ooba, Shadoweh, Messiah Complex, Cephrir, Titus, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless, Tierce, AGar

quadz08 (2) -

Shadoweh, kanyesknowsbest

some 1 pls tell me wth.why did this wagon crumble after such a flimsy claim? whos the scum here who were bussing but then thought better of it when town showed interest elsewhere?

Looks like Garruk, Goat, and Ceph to me. I'm also liking AGar a lot less...

quadz, AGar is saying that SafetyDance is scum who blocked you. Seems fairly reasonable...?

This is retarded. Why would scum-SD lie about his night actions?

And I don't understand how you can say that's reasonable but then also be confused that some people consider SD/Quadz a true 1v1, considering that is the crux of the issue.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

quadz08 (9) -

ooba, Shadoweh,

Messiah Complex

, Cephrir, Titus, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless, Tierce, AGar

quadz08 (2) -

Shadoweh, kanyesknowsbest

some 1 pls tell me wth.why did this wagon crumble after such a flimsy claim? whos the scum here who were bussing but then thought better of it when town showed interest elsewhere?

Looks like Garruk, Goat, and Ceph to me. I'm also liking AGar a lot less...

...

<3 you too bro

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

No, I'm pretty sure I got it. Why don't you tell me what it was though?

Also wassup with the ad hom?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

*sigh*

You're saying people are scum for doing something you did. Oh, and did you forget how town Goat was these last few pages, or what?

Well, you've been misinterpreting my posts all game, so there's that!

Newsflash: Scum and town do the same shit all the time. Kanye asked a question and I answered him. The key is to examine

why

someone was on the Quadz wagon and isn't anymore.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Vote: Garruk Relentless

Quadz was 100% surviving yesterday until Kanye dragged everyone back to him with a new case--and it doesn't make any sense to refuse to bus Spyrex and then, having lost him, eagerly bus Quadz the next day.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I'm thinking Zed might be a better lynch.

Why?

In other news,
Unvote: Spyrex
Vote: elleheathen

Why?

I support the SpyreX wagon but like my lonely vote on Nautilius better for now.

I thiiiiink I'm ok with the Zdenek wagon as well, but need to pay more attention to him to make sure I still think he's scum. He's fallen off the radar for me, but it's more because I haven't been paying as much attention to his posts that anything else.

this is a pretty dang gross post if you think abt it w. spyscum and inno goat in mind.

quadz08 (9) -

ooba, Shadoweh, Messiah Complex, Cephrir, Titus, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless, Tierce, AGar

quadz08 (2) -

Shadoweh, kanyesknowsbest

some 1 pls tell me wth.why did this wagon crumble after such a flimsy claim? whos the scum here who were bussing but then thought better of it when town showed interest elsewhere?

like the way he handled safetydances roleblock is not at all from the perspective of someone who was roleblocked that night. he would want to know whether or not sd was the one who roleblocked him or if there was the possibility of a scum roleblocker or jk in the game.

[Messiah Complex]

Ooba and Nacho made the original push. Then Quadz claimed and the wagon dispersed. Then, as I said, Kanye dragged the town back to Quadz with a new case.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

And you didn't address why scum-Kanye refused to bus Spyrex and then changed his approach and bussed Quadz the very next day (without a NK to boot).

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Do you know what it takes for SafetyDance to be scum? It requires him TRACKING ME NIGHT 2 and then being like "oh, actually I blocked him". What motivation does he have to do this as scum? Does he think that this makes him townier? How would he know that I wasn't a ninja? Etc. It also requires him BLOCKING quadz and claiming that he tracked him. What motivation does he have to not out his true claim? I was townier than quadz Day 2 and made more sense as a scum block anyways, why claim it?

I also don't understand why it took quadz getting wagonned to shit in order to claim that he was blocked when SD claimed to have tracked him. I think he was capitalizing on SD being a prickly fuck most of the time and people's dislike of how he claimed in order to bring forward a reason why SD could be scum in order to save himself. If I was town and I was in quadz's shoes, I would immediately respond with "fuck no you didn't track me N3 because scum role blocked me"; he tried to use that as retroactive reasoning for why he was pushing SD, but quadz was focusing on the claim mixup which was pretty much everyone else's problem with it. There's also no reason not to out earlier; he certainly didn't have to claim macho cop in order to get that bit out.

Now, as to the possibility of there being a scum blocker who blocked quads D3: slim. Slim as fuck. We have role blockers in Titus, elleheathen, and SD; the chances of a mysterious fourth scum blocker are a bit slim, for one. Secondly... the target makes no fucking sense for a scum blocker. quads didn't telegraph his innocents at all (aka he hid them so fucking much they're suspicious), so it's not because he was obv cop. It also would be a hell of a coincidence, and I haven't seen anyone else claim blocked.

And, if you look at it in terms of a 1v1, who has had the most chances to get out of it? SafetyDance. If he blocked quadz and tracked me, he could have had literally a hundred chances to go "oh, fuck, I actually blocked quads", which would prevent this entire 1v1 in the first place. But he maintains it even after quadz makes his claim, he maintains and taunts everyone about it constantly; I don't see scum pushing bullshit actions that he could claim honestly very very easily with so much conviction and so much passion. He isn't scum. Quadz is.

I had no idea this post existed. It's so fucking beautiful.

With that said, last I checked 3857 came before 3917. Kanye had already dug in to his quadz tunnel by the time Nacho put words to his case. You posit that scum-Kanye "didn't want" to bus Quadz and had his hand forced when there was absolutely no incentive for him to have done that. With three days to the deadline he could have just coasted to deadline with his scum buddy safe and sound--you know, kind of like

you tried to do

:

Both heads of this hydra are gonna be on relatively limited access til Sunday.

^

Immediately before Kanye started going after Quadz again

.

Building a narrative around an event is pretty easy--the tricky part is explaining

why

and this is where your case falls flat.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So, um, what's up?

You're scum and haven't responded to me calling out your total projection on Kanye re: Quadz' lynch.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

You're scum and haven't responded to me calling out your total projection on Kanye re: Quadz' lynch.

- Des

I'm mostly not interested in arguing with you because you've been deathtunneling me since day one and I just don't have it in my heart to care anymore. Literally anything I do you will construe as scum, so I'm just gonna wait for someone who isn't Tweedledesp or Tweedledance to interact with me. In any case, you won't lynch me today, I can ensure that.

This isn't even true. I said you guys were town D1. Then stayed away from you D2. And D3.

Like, are you fucking serious right now?!?! I gave you guys all the space in the world.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Was it not formerfish who built the whole case on us and almost got us quicklynched day one? I'll grant you the other two, I guess, but I feel you're approaching this with a conclusion already in mind(ie I'm scum) and building a premise from there(am I doing the same to kanye? I dunno, I try not to. I really hate that he's talking sense today).

????

There was no point D1 where you had more than 7 votes, and that was at the end of the day was votes were coalescing on you and Thor at the deadline.

And you weren't talking about Formerfish. You addressed me and said that I had been deathtunnelling you since D1.

You can shove your confbias accusation up your ass, Nat. You get caught in a lie and still cling to that bullshit? Either grow a pair and fucking explain yourself or get to stepping.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

why are people unironically rolling dice to decide a vote on D5 of a large theme

?!?!

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

elleheathen
Garuk Relentless (Natarisha/MafiaSSK)
Goat on a Raft (Channeldelibird/AurorusVox)
Messiah Complex (Desperado/Formerfish)
Prideandjoy(chesskid3/ActionDan)


Here's the current remaining list. I know Alchemist is missing and that might blow your mind but he doesn't really feel that much like scum.

I wasn't ignoring you, I'm just really distracted by Garruk.

Help me bus them.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Where was I caught in a lie, Desp? If you're regarding our untimely VLA, I'm sorry it was poorly-timed, but I was VLA site-wide and my hydra partner is literally known for his ability to lurk harder than anyone.

The lie was that you aren't going to engage me because I have been death tunnelling you since D1. Now that I've proven that that couldn't be further from the truth, you still aren't going to engage me because I decided you were scum first and fit your actions later--which is basically the same thing that I just disproved.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I have like 15 minutes

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

#1 issue with Kanye case is: why did Kanye stay away from Spyrex D1 and then bus Quadz at a point in time where he had a lot of other options available to him?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

#1 issue with Kanye case is: why did Kanye stay away from Spyrex D1 and then bus Quadz at a point in time where he had a lot of other options available to him?

- Des

I mentioned before that I don't think kanye went into d4 expecting quadz to be the primary lynch target--that's, at least, what his behavior around the SafetyDance wagon suggested to me.

After talking with SSK last night, our current working theory is that, once it was clear quadz was going south, the scum team is pushing forward kanye as something of a champion and planning on him going into the long game since it's kinda becoming clear that they're not going to win earlier.

Regarding SpyreX, I think of all the things, he was telling the truth about his role in some amount. He likely had some objectives to fulfill. Who knows how many exactly he had fulfilled at that point--that's my first thought at least. My second thought is that SpyreX had the pedigree of being hyped up both as a player and on an individual level in this game. SpyreX likely would have been a very successful member of the scumteam had he got through another night phase to get his head fully in the game, so to speak. Perhaps it also has a little to do with personalities as well--I'm unsure, but kanye definitely suggested a positive history with SpyreX, so he's less likely to want to bus him.

@ bold: OK, but what you haven't addressed is why Kanye did it given the context. There were three days to the deadline. The Quadz/SD 1v1 had dispersed. Kanyescum could have gone another way and bussed him later. What did he have to gain from bussing? You suggest that his team expected him to live to endgame, so why go for cheap town cred?

You said earlier that you hate that Kanye is making sense today. Who is scum if Kanye is town?

@ AGar: Why does it look like I'm not?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

can someone please explain why batshit theory = town?

because fuck that

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I find that really convoluted logic is often genuine. Particularly when related to scumhunting. Because scum would just come up with something less crazy, whereas townies often have to try to puzzle out why their gut feels the way it does.

I don't think Garruk's theory really qualifies, though.

That's my point. It's hardly even a theory, it's just a guess based off of incomplete information. And when you consider that they chose now, as the 7th vote on the Titus wagon, to whip out their supr sekrit gamebreaking theory stinks too.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Nacho: What about Garruk?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

can someone please explain why batshit theory = town?

because fuck that

- Des

Cephrir already said about how a convoluted theory sounds town, but they've already made clear they're not getting lynched today. Therefore, they're a bad person to push today anyway.

They have implied that they can't be lynched today. While also claiming double-hated status.

I don't give a fuck tbh. I'll stop pushing them as soon as Faraday says I can't anymore

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Unvote
Vote: Goat on a Raft

just spit it out already jesus

Hey Nacho, why are you on a wagon with two scumreads? That's kinda weird given the conversation you just had with Kanye.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

im bak from course that was 8 hours longer then thought be and now i face
its probably not that great an idea for everyone with a night action to say so doofuses

WIFOM is a hell of a drug

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Garruk 1v1 me fagget

This isn't bannable?

??

Pretty sure it was a joke.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Vote: Nautilius

Vote me.

Ok

Vote: Naut

[Messiah Complex]

WHO CARES WHAT ROLE IT IS?!?!

Jesus christ Tammy, it doesn't matter what role he has and it shouldn't factor into your paranoia level at all.

The motivation, on the other hand, is town town town.

And I think I am ready to call Alfred full blown scum. Marble really, really impressed in Wingate and I've gotten precisely nothing out of him all game. I've have to check their ISO to confirm but my impression is that the slot has been 75% empire, and Marble showing up to hammer did not sit right.

Vote: Goat on a Raft

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Oh you have one of two roles I can think of

VOTE: nautilus

damn i had a bet with myself that you were gonna get paranoid and not vote me or something

Actually the second role is kinda silly, don't know what I was thinking. But the other one is pretty plausible and I have no reason to be paranoid.

^Is this not you saying you aren't paranoid because the role you think Naut is is a town role?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

My point being that Nacho's role shouldn't factor into your paranoia level at all.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Moving on...

Any thoughts on what I said about Alfred?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I don't see anything about marble in what you just said about the slot.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

-Empire's scumgame is very inconsistent; he can make one big post, but his consistency is absolute shit. During Day 1, Empire was around, he was posting, he was doing a lot of good things. Compare his D1 here with his D1 in that Mini Normal and you'll see a hell of a difference.
-Empire hates scum. Llamarble does not hate scum, and is competent at it. If that hydra drew scum, Llamarble would be the driving head and Empire would be in the background (see any morph the cat scum completed game for an example of that), but Empire was the primary driver the entire game and he's uncomfortable as fuck.
-See Empire's confidence in the mini normal scumgame, where his biggest meta threat was ffery versus his confidence here, where his biggest meta threats were Tammy/Tierce as part of the TET masonry. There's no way in hell he goes from awkward as hell as scum in a Mini Normal to god-tier town D1 here when there are more things he has to worry about here.

I don't think any of these points are valid at this juncture.

1. It's D7. Has Borden looked town at ALL since D1? Neither you nor Tammy can point to anything Empire's done in the last 6 days to justify the townread he gave you D1. How is that anything but inconsistency?
2. OK. a) They are obviously aware of this and are certainly capable of playing on your expectations, and b) Llamarble is also a fucking awesome town player and so is Empire, and as a team they have accomplished exactly jack and shit despite being a universal townread since D1. How is that not ringing alarm bells for you???
3. There's no way in hell? Get real, Nacho. It's called effort. He gave it D1 and he towned it up. In Wingate his town energy never let up despite that game descending into total madness--here he's in an uber powerful D1 townblock with all of his best friends and he tapers off into total nothingness.

Vote: Alfred Borden

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

When he was Syry, yeah. And during the Tierce/coin thing.

Why are they town?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

We've been thinking a lot about the lack of NKs and Spyrex claiming that he had a role that required him to hammer.

We think there is a very clear payoff for scum-Borden to have hammered the last two days.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

D1 - Thor hammered by PNJ
N1 - No kill
D2 - Amrun hammered by Spyrex
N2 - Macmollie killed
D3 - Spyrex hammered by Tierce
N3 - No kill
D4 - Quadz hammered by Goat on a Raft
N4 - Katsuki killed by Shadoweh
D5 - PNJ hammered by Borden
N5 - No kill
D6 - Goat on a Raft hammered by Borden
N6 - AGar killed

Guess who never got a chance to check in D6 to say who he blocked N5 and then got murdered the next night even though he wasn't in town block?

Borden is scum.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

The only thing I didnt like about their play was not voting SpyreX.

How about them completely avoiding Quadz too? After being present on virtually every major town wagon D1 and D2 (ooba, Thor, SafetyDance, Amrun), Borden was nowhere to be found on either of the two flipped scum.

Not only were they not lynching scum, they weren't doing anything at all. On D3, Borden's name appears under "Not Voting" in 10 of the 27 VCs--when they were voting, it was either AGar (the first Spyrex counterwagon) or Alchemist (the 2nd).

D4 is more of the same.

Borden didn't vote the entire fucking day four. Not once. How is that even possible?!?!

D5--12/13 Not voting! Only showed up to hammer PNJ.

D6 - Quickhammer.

I cannot emphasize enough how scummy Borden is.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@ Ooba: We think Spyrex was lying about it being his role specifically. We think he just claimed it because that would seem like a realistic fakeclaim.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

-Yeah, he did. I can point to town things that he's done in the past days, never said I couldn't. D1 is the selling point, though.
2: being aware of something doesn't mean you can play to it unless you're a good scum player. Empire isn't a good scum player. It's not ringing alarm bells for me because Empire has some rl shit that happened to him so I understand why he hasn't been involved that deep. Llamarble play has no excuse.
3: see real life issues.

1) D1 is simultaneously the peak and the beginning of a quick descent. Please do.
2) Empire isn't a good scum player but he is occupying the same slot as someone whose scum prowess is actually informing your townread. Do you think Empire isn't good at taking directions?
3) Didn't we go over all this with Amrun earlier? Real life excuses are just excuses. Borden's record says "scum."

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

The only thing I didnt like about their play was not voting SpyreX.

How about them completely avoiding Quadz too? After being present on virtually every major town wagon D1 and D2 (ooba, Thor, SafetyDance, Amrun), Borden was nowhere to be found on either of the two flipped scum.

I really see your point here, but Empire loves bussing. Like I would expect if there was a weak member of his team, he would have bussed him like crazy. That wouldn't apply to Spyrex, but it would apply to quadz. If he's on a team of strong players, and he's the weak one, he'd want to be the bussed one. So, I'd be really surprised if he was Chaos.

The scum have only had two successful kills in six nights. Are you really suggesting that Empire is town because he didn't bus Quadz when the scum had just lost what everyone agrees is a really strong member and they were 1/3 on night kills? Just because he loves to do it so much?

And again, this analysis ignores marble's potential impact on Empire's game and it's seriously starting to bother me. What does he like to do as scum?

D4 is more of the same.

Borden didn't vote the entire fucking day four. Not once. How is that even possible?!?!

- Des

Oh, I forgot to address this. Why do you bring this up and also bring up Wingate? Empire has a habit of going full days without voting; he's very similar to me in that regard. I'm pretty sure if you go back to Wingate you'll see him not voting for entire days.

The hydra is comprised of more than just Empire and there was way too much going on on day four to justify not voting even once. I don't think the context there and in Wingate are really comparable.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

My point is that the circumstances surrounding Empire's town energy depleting in Wingate and here are not comparable. You had already lynched both scum and it took what, four days of paranoia before you lynched Mara and Qwints?

As soon as this game started hitting it's groove and we started lynching scum, Empire vanished. That doesn't sound like the Empire I know that loves to be town and was universally townread in the early game. And Marble struck me as someone who enjoys playing town (and who talked about deliberately playing in such a way as to not get killed N1 in the Wingate dead QT) as well.

Empire posting more =/= Empire being the driving force behind the hydra. It means he's the front man. Empire's playstyle definitely plays a part, but I feel like Marble's potential influence on Empire's game is being ignored.

Who are you looking at today?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

So you're saying you took yourself out of context then? *oonfused*

He pretty much said we shouldn't townread someone for acting like town, so... what are we supposed to do then? XD

ohmigodgoaway

He said that Borden had a great D1 and then took the scummiest route possible in literally every other day, and now everyone is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for Marble to show up and post something so they can townread him and lynch someone else.

Just to recap, Borden was universally townread since early D1 and proceeded to:

Push every major town wagon on D1 and D2
Fail to participate in either of the two scum lynches on D3 and D4
Reappear to quickhammer two town lynches and squelch discussion in the process on D5 and D6--with the coup de grace of AGar's early D6 absence and no kill N5 giving the most recent hammer even more scum motivation

But no, let's all just wait here for Marble to "step it" (??? he's the one who hammered the last two days) so we can reaffirm our townread and move on.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I don't think the Desperado's reasoning for Empire being scum is compelling. I'm worried about that slot, but anyone will have to come up with things that I would expect for him as town.

I think I have a slam dunk.

PS "jesus christ everyone is so scummy" isn't a very satisfactory answer. Can you be more specific?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Benmage, I believe both TA and AB are both equally lynchable. You are fearmongering.

Is he though? We've already seen one instance where someone's prowess for the game almost out shadowed their ability to be read objectively. Spyrex seems to ring bells for some reason. If you have 2 equally scummy people why fight for the lesser of 2 evils. This is like trying to decide between taking out Hitler or one of his guards.

[Messiah Complex]

All three of you are pretty much assuming AB is scum, and some of you are also assuming Alchemist is scum

Are you fucking serious with this post? Of course we are assuming things. Benmage said it best when he asked if you all are just waiting for a scum claim. If any of us had concrete, irrefutable evidence that someone was scum don't you think we'd have mentioned that by now?

This is generally how a game of mafia goes. People interact until someone seems scummy enough to lynch. If they are scum we rejoice and move on to the next person. If they are town we mourn and look at each other with increasing paranoia.

Assumptions are the basis for most decisions made in this game. Get the fuck out of here with your weak ass bullshit.

[Messiah Complex]

I couldn't care less how you view my tone. I'm playing the game the way I see fit, just like you are.

[Messiah Complex]

D1 - Thor hammered by PNJ
N1 - No kill
D2 - Amrun hammered by Spyrex
N2 - Macmollie killed
D3 - Spyrex hammered by Tierce
N3 - No kill
D4 - Quadz hammered by Goat on a Raft
N4 - Katsuki killed by Shadoweh
D5 - PNJ hammered by Borden
N5 - No kill
D6 - Goat on a Raft hammered by Borden
N6 - AGar killed

Guess who never got a chance to check in D6 to say who he blocked N5 and then got murdered the next night even though he wasn't in town block?

Borden is scum.

- Des

I thought that was the whole point of this, Titus.

It's a working theory that was put together in conjunction with Agars nonsensical death.

[Messiah Complex]

Why do you have a face palm at the end of that there? Were you trying a gambit of sorts in regards to our theory?

[Messiah Complex]

I read it as him saying that the scum had to hammer in order to get a night kill, so Spyrex's hammer led to the macmollie kill, and the day six hammer led to Agar's nightkill. Am I missing something, because if that's not part of what he's arguing then I don't know why he's so strongly arguing for Borden as scum based on the hammer.

They're arguing that AB quickhammered because Agar had blocked scum the previous night and they wanted to get rid of him before he checked in

Both of these are accurate

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

With that said, I'm now counting Nacho, Tierce, Tammy, Ooba, and Cephrir as staunch "no" votes on Borden. That lynch is DOA today as far as we are concerned.

Unvote
Vote: The Alchemist

As long as Nacho hammers

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

@Mod

- this happened

With that said, I'm now counting Nacho, Tierce, Tammy, Ooba, and Cephrir as staunch "no" votes on Borden. That lynch is DOA today as far as we are concerned.

Unvote
Vote: The Alchemist

As long as Nacho hammers

- Des

Thanks! Fixed!

[Messiah Complex]

We've received our prod. I love the walls of town reads, its been a while since my last good circle jerk. Still lynching TA. Still waiting for everyone to emerge from their turkey comas to come out and play.

[Messiah Complex]

If you're complaining about the hyphen that's grammar, not spelling.

I'm sure you didn't realise that in the red mist of rushing to defend your scumbuddy.

You are one cheeky bastard that I would not have shed a tear over when the kings guard came knocking on your door. In fact, I regret having anything to do with helping you avoid the noose.

[Messiah Complex]

VOTE: kanyeknowsbest

Last I can figure you had Kanye in your would not lynch pile. When/how/why did that change?

[Messiah Complex]

I hope you aren't on a diet because we only buy Redenbacher's Ultimate Extra Butter--440mg of Sodium!

We still think Kanye's Quadz push is enough to call him town and be done with it.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I have the metabolism of a ferret. :9

kanye isn't half bad at bussing, IIRC. What in the push made you think he's Town?

We don't think Kanye would refuse to bus Spyrex D3 and then bus Quadz D4 after scum had failed to kill twice, and we don't think Kanye would bus at the deadline after the Quadz wagon had already dismantled once (especially considering he didn't even join it the first time--if he were going to bus Quadz, surely he would have decided it when the 1v1 with SD was presented).

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Ugh, what is this Cephir, Kanye link garbage? Why no follow up from either Cephir or Kanye?

Basically, I'm thinking kanye is an idiot but town.

Well that's just not a nice thing to fucking say. Kanye has shown clear moments of brilliance, with concise posts that reveal that there is a lot more going on beneath the surface. Maybe you missed those posts with all of your intense note taking, but you better recognize your betters.

[Messiah Complex]

You consider that post to be hostile? That is by far one of the most tame things I've said recently.

[Messiah Complex]

I feel like MC has observed others calling SD town for being unreasonably hostile and decided to emulate it because I don't recall this happening in 164...

Why are you talking about Fish's posts and then bringing up my meta?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I've been signing my posts the entire game.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I've been letting a little crazy in lately that has me believing the scum team might gain something from

Hammering

... SpyreX being the original lamb, and Alfred ninja-ing one with that GnR speedlynch.

^pedit hats...

And whats the hammer concern... damn ooba u bad at dis.

Did you forget your own theory on why scum might be going after hammers?

[Messiah Complex]

No optimal scumplay is making sure you maximize your long term chances of winning. Pushing and actually getting the quadz lynch gets you a *lot* more towncred than the other scenario.

Why was Kanye's towncred (which was not lacking before the Quadz lynch) more important than Quadz' life?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Desperado, what do you think of the "no, that's probably just why AGar was killed" counterargument to the slam dunk case?

It's a possibility, but Alfred-scum isn't dependent on the scum having to hammer in order to kill. It's just sweetener.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

no no no no no no no

one sign of weakness shouldn't translate into "everybody lynch kanye"

Um yeah, I'm not voting for kanye.

This is where we stand with Kanye as well. This is a bad push on him and you all should see that.

[Messiah Complex]

I'm going on record to say that was fucking stupid.

[Messiah Complex]

I finally got in touch with Desperado, I'm off the chain and this vote is green lit.

Vote: Garruk

I am so ready to see you flip scum here. It would make sense of all the a.t.e. and how you have hid behind being cleared by actions that shouldn't have cleared you and town paranoia of actions that may not have ever existed.

[Messiah Complex]

I hate this. I hate how town is just playing follow the cop or in this case, the fake tracker. We're going to get lynched. We're going to die when we've done nothing wrong. When we're town. Ugh.

-SSK

are you fucking kidding me

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I was not informed of Garruk's motivate of me N5 because he was roleblocked by AGar.

Also hence no kill.
BOOM

Borden, Garruk, Alchemist, Elleheathen

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

We have justified our vote on you several times over.

You have inexplicably been allowed to live because scum wouldn't motivate the NK N1 when, as far as we can tell, it has not been confirmed that Tierce even ate a bullet N1.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

How exactly are we (our slot, not us and Cephrir) taunting Garruk?

[Messiah Complex]

Yeah, yeah. We are here. Still following Benmage and his read. Waiting for most of the player list to come out and vote or say why they won't.

[Messiah Complex]

Hey Ben, you have any more reports from the Redundant Department of Redundancy?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Are you still unclear about why Garruk isn't dead yet? Cause that would be afuckingmazing.

[Messiah Complex]

Titus the hated thing was discussed in full, read the fucking thread and you will find the answers you seek.

[Messiah Complex]

I don't see how you can not buy it, considering it's confirmed truth at this point?

You asked what the scum motivation was for claiming hated

Answer: not getting wagoned

It is not confirmed truth because unless I missed it, your hated claim was never tested

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Vote: Alchemist

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Naut, Desp is working on a reply to your wall on us. He should have it done in a day or two.

All you others taking shots at us I will be addressing hopefully tomorrow.

[Messiah Complex]

I still think Alfred Borden is town. I see Empire posting that I'm fairly confident that he cannot fake as scum, I also present to you this:

I would also like to know why the Desp head of the Messiah Complex hydra is ignoring Tammy's STRONG STRONG endorsement of Empire-town.

I had just gotten done arguing with Tammy about Borden when she put that case up (that ends midway through D3), so don't tell me I ignored her. The majority of our issues with Borden come on D4 onward. We weren't convinced then and we aren't now.

First thing that concerns me about the Messiah Complex hydra is that they currently have less than a post per page and I can't remember anything that they've posted recently. The current people hitting less than a post per page are:

Alfred Borden (Empire/Llamarble) - Concerning, would be more concerning if Empire was still in the game. I can see Llamarble-town having trouble getting into a game where his partner who was doing the lion's share of the work abandoned him.
elleheathen Magua - elle flaked for a hell of a while, Magua is a replacement, not surprising.
Messiah Complex (Desperado/Formerfish)
ooba - generally a low rate poster, not a concern.
SafetyDance - generally a low rate poster, not a concern.
Shadoweh - I figured she would have more posts by now, but :hitoshrug:
The Alchemist - lurking scum which explains low postcount

Messiah Complex most likely shouldn't be close to this postrate. He should be a leader by now because the list is getting pretty fucking small and the game is getting pretty fucking close to the bad stages, but he's not. This is concerning. Not a smoking gun quite yet, but concerning in a bad way considering the last large games I remember him in he had postcounts like this and this (lurkfuck game) and this (incredibly lurky Desperado-town) and this, and I wouldn't expect him to lose an incredible amount of energy and good posting like he has lately.

I tried to be a leader twice. The first time I was met with extreme resistance and it took forever to get a secure a lynch that should have been obvious. The second time, I was met with the same resistance plus a dash of "shut the fuck up" from you, tammy and tierce at the start of D7 coming off of Borden's 2nd quickhammer. The fact is that the town has gone against our reads in almost every case--there's a point where even the highest energy town player can run out of motivation, and this game has pushed me there multiple times. You can't lead someone who doesn't want to be led.

Messiah switches gears completely onto Garruk and tends to keep his hands out of the SD-quadz situation completely because quadz probably shouldn't have died the day that he did and he had a strong townread on SD already (still for scum JOAT reasoning as opposed to any other reason). They launch into a tirade how we shouldn't deal with the 1v1 today, we shouldn't deal with the 1v1 today, but in doing so he doesn't make any attempt to sort either of them out (despite that strong townread on SD earlier and no stance to speak of on quadz).

I didn't make an attempt to sort Quadz because

he claimed Macho Cop

. He was going to be sorted eventually and wasn't worth wasting time on, as I made clear at the time.

I really really really don't like how Tammy and I dropped a fuckton of reasoning about Borden's towniness and Desp just sort of... ignored it. He's as kneedeep in the "strong meta read" culture as I am so he should be able to see those things and trust conviction like the conviction Tammy had, but he ignored it and just kind of shelved it until later.

Ignored it???

What the fuck, dude?

I also don't like how he sees the whole Benmage/Garruk thing yesterday and doesn't comment on it, just drops a vote on Alchemist. Felt bussy in the sense that it would be ignored pretty much entirely, but hey, at least he has his vote documented on Alchemist.

Garruk flipped town and Benmage is still town. What else is there to say?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Naut, Desp is working on a reply to your wall on us. He should have it done in a day or two.

All you others taking shots at us I will be addressing hopefully tomorrow.

He should know that's don't really care about his response to my case and instead care about him making more of an effort to figure the game out.

I have been making an effort. You can seriously shove this bullshit up your ass. Spyrex doesn't get lynched without our push. We were out on Thor, Amrun, Kanye, PnJ. We're alive because we don't have any cache in this town, bottomline.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

1) It doesn't matter when the case convers when you don't know that you can read empire but Tammy can. What is so horrible about Alfred's play where you are ignoring a strong meta read because of it? You wouldn't ignore anyone else when they call a hard meta read (even if you didn't see it), why would you ignore her? The only reason I can see is that you need the Alfred Borden mislynch; show me otherwise.

2) well I have no idea why we told you to stop pushing that angle. Maybe because... Strong meta read? I'm also surprised to hear you say that you stepped down because people weren't listening because all that sounds exactly like TAs response to Tierce when she asked him why he wasnt pushing anything.

3) Eho cares what he claimed? There were clearly a few problems with his claim, but you stayed off him because he claimed cop. I know you saw the cracks in his claim; why not address them? Why not be louder when protecting him if you thought he would be sorted so quickly?

4) you look at it and said "not enough". By ignore it, I mean you didn't take it into account to the extent that you should have. Are my semantics better now?

1. For starters, how about Borden's complete avoidance of the SD/Quadz situation? In which they

didn't vote once

? Please explain the town motivation for their behavior D4.

2. The difference is that we have still been pushing things. We pushed Borden D7 and defended Kanye til the end. We pushed Garruk all game before Benmage's fake guilty. We pushed Goat before you Gladiatorated him. We pushed quadz until he claimed something that guaranteed his death or lynch.

Are you seriously fucking comparing us to Alchemist right now?

3. What the fuck do you mean who cares what he claimed? He claimed an unprotectable cop. He was either scum fakeclaiming or soon to be dead town. I didn't see any value in feeding into the 1v1 at that time, so I went another way.

Also: you bought Quadz' claim at first and defended his investigation choices. Why are you now calling me scummy for not calling out the obvious holes in it?

4. You're goddamn right I look at it and say "not enough." Yours and Tammy's town case for Borden ends halfway through D3 and it's D9. It ignores marbles' potential impact on Empire's scumgame. It ignores Empire's ability to emulate what you and Tammy and Tierce expect from him as town. And it ignores the fact that

Empire couldn't keep up the charade

. Chalk it up to whatever you want but Borden hasn't looked town since D3 and you and Tammy and whoever else hasn't even tried to show otherwise, because you can't. They've done NOTHING but push town and avoid scum lynches all game long and you're sitting there and townreading them for it.

Get a grip, Nacho. They're scum.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Unlike some, not afraid to get everything out there (I did try to persist we should earlier).

I've also got a one-shot doc and I have no idea on who to use it on tonight to prevent mylo/lylo..

Tammy then Tierce dying is no coincidence, MC and Shadow have been rather skating and for such a strong, common, early town read Cephrir is still around. Then there's the whole Nacho/Borden thing, there's gotta be scum there and of course in the liars and lurkers. Think since I'm still here, may as well completely reset reads and do a massive re-read too.

I see no compelling reason not to mass claim today.

I plan on ISOing everyone, because this really is going to shit. I'm lost and confused and I don't understand

how the last few lynches have all been town.

Benmage, I hate you. FYI.

I can help there:

Day 5 - PnJ speedlynched before all the playerlist comes in (town)
Day 6 - Nacho creates the 1v1 with Goat to get him lynched (town)
Day 7 - Ooba fakes guilty on Kanye to get him lynched (town)
Day 8 - Benmage fakes guilty on GR to get him lynched (town)

Also there was a point yesterday where the GR wagon stalled and people were calling him town, has to be more to do with knowledge than reads you would think.

Massclaim is dumb. Near as I gather, all town claims so far have been met with, "Lol stupid fakeclaim die scum oh shit they were town," then repeat, helped by ooba and Benmage. Given the no role flip, limited shot setup, I have zero conviction that we'd be trapping any scum in a lie and so it'd just let them know more of the setup with no gain for us.

[1] Loosely interpreted.

There's a few more out there but really the advantages of massclaiming now is that it can be the last chance to do so before we get to an end game situation. It is better having the information out there now then just releasing it when it is most beneficial for scum to bullshit. Tie people down to role claims, try and figure it out and leave the only manipulation by scum to the night, as opposed to any mylo/lylo scenario. The more hoops we can try and get scum to jump through, the less we have to jump through ourselves.

I am sick of these half-arsed claims, I was sick of having mine out there for so long (didn't think I'd live past D1) but feel no remorse over it considering what's happened this game and the aversion people have had.

People like Messiah have been skimming since the start, others have been backing others actions for *reasons* (eg GR & Tierce; Ceph,Nacho & Titus). Shadoweh is even trolling now. ("Ice skating. I'm sure someone will be an obvious target by the end of the day. ").

Heck considering she's effectively Vig claimed, she's the leading candidate for a modified SK. Actually surprised Omar isn't in this game considering the runups that have occurred.

Ooba, you need to drop the hell out of your two scumteam theory until evidence of it arises.

You want evidence of the two scumteams - you lynch Benmage. Not my fault both teams can't crosskill properly.

Night 2 - macmollie killed
Night 4 - blocked by Titus
Night 6 - AGar killed
Night 8 - Tierce killed

Night 1 - BP eaten up by Tierce
Night 3 - ???
Night 5 - ??? (blocked by Agar?)
Night 7 - Tammy killed

After solid days of plays, Reads!Ooba kinda turned into Theories!Ooba, didn't he?

Glad you're admitting to having no evidence for this theory.

And here we were still trying to clean the mud off our faces from the first time you threw some our way without any sort of fucking backing to what you were saying. How exactly do you describe skating and skimming, cause I think that our definitions would be vastly different, unless of course you see opposing lynches on people we see as town, and in like 80% we are right, or defending you early in the game when town was getting ready to vote through a mislynch, or in pushing scum that was unpopular to push because "OMG Guyz, Spyspy is like a God around here, even if they do scummy as shit things we are willing to keep them around in case they are town." So if that is what you mean by skating, then yes we have been skating. If you have a different way of thinking on that one, please let us know cause we are all fucking ears on this one.

@Ooba

- Please stop pushing the 2 scum team theory you have going here, its predicated upon nothing more than conjecture at this point, much like Tierce eating the N1 kill which is solely a theory itself given the track record of kills in this game.

@Ben

- Where were you when we were fighting with multiple people on our Alfred read? You seem to be looking around for people to back you up here and you were nowhere to be found when we were pushing that read. It seems like you should have reached out at the time so that we could line up shoulder to shoulder and take the fight to them even if we were outnumbered against "superior" forces.

[Messiah Complex]

1) They didn't avoid it. They commented on it a few times! They didn't reach resolution on who they wanted to vote, which isn't a horribly bad thing considering there was a point where quadz was in his grave and they could have voted, wouldn't be too hard to jump in then. Why is not voting in the 1v1 such a scumtell, again? Is it because you don't think they could figure out to pick a side as scum?

2) You said you stopped leading because we shut down your Borden read and because people didn't listen to you fast enough on your SpyreX read. Both of these reasons sound like bulkshit, and this is what I want to discuss with this numbered point. I will also add that quads getting roleblocked was a damn strong possibility, considering claimed cop.

3) the next day, quads claims roleblocked and is still alive. Whoops!
I'm criticizing you because you didn't even look at it; I went through a full thought process on the claim and you didn't because you believed he would be sorted eventually.

4) Marble impact on Empire is that he will have to do a great deal of carrying. He will not be able to coach empire how to deal with strong meta threats because he doesn't know what we look for. It doesn't ignore Empire ability to emulate what we expect out of him as town; I saw him try to emulate what Ffery expected as town and it was a pretty pitiful showing there too. And couldn't keep up the charade? This is a disgusting misrep considering he replaced out everywhere due to real life circumstances. Your characterization of their play is additionally horrible and I won't even address it.

1. Yes they did. Quote Borden taking a stance on Quadz' claim.
2. I don't give a shit what it sounds like. This town hasn't been interested in doing what we want to do at any point. I have tried to take a leadership role more than once and been rebuffed. We will continue to push our scumreads until we're dead and that's about all your going to see from us.
3. Yes I did, and it would have been whether we lynched Quadz that day or not.
4. I disagree with everything you said (which isn't surprising because you're also ignoring Formerfish's potential impact on my play, but I guess hydra interaction is just a blind spot for you this game). And it isn't a misrep, it's a fact. Empire sacrificed time he could have spent in this game for Space Mafia, in which he was town hydra'd with ffery.

@Magua:
My Proficiency would look a lot better without 2 faked guilties a 1v1 a fast scumhammer and a deadlined lynch on Thor.

This is all bullshit. You prematurely hammered the 1v1. You never lifted a finger to defend Thor. You were the fucking conductor of the Amrun train. Ooba's claim wasn't sound and you bought it hook line and sinker even though you'd had a hard townread on him since at least D4.

One of the fake claimers must be scum

No they don't.

Naut, no. Benmage is n a different position than ooba's claim. Ooba just fakeclaimed. Then Benmage. I am not asking you for innuedo about it's posssible. Show me the motivation. I don't see it.

You have not sufficiently proven why their different positions necessarily means that one of them is scum, let alone why Ooba is town and Ben is scum.

@Ben- Where were you when we were fighting with multiple people on our Alfred read? You seem to be looking around for people to back you up here and you were nowhere to be found when we were pushing that read. It seems like you should have reached out at the time so that we could line up shoulder to shoulder and take the fight to them even if we were outnumbered against "superior" forces.

What day was this?

D7.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

MC, I have proven the dual claimers one must be scum to myself. I understandI have the burden to convince you. You have the burden to convince me. I am going to try again because I feel TA is a lurktastic moron.

First, we have two fake claimers. Ooba's timing was right when kanye's wagon was the weakest. He was quickhammered before I could see it and say fake guilty or scum cop.

Benmage causes another mislynch on a player who had almost worked his way to conftown status. Noapparent town motivation exists for the claim.

Two suspicious claims under the circumstances, at least 1 is scum.

The only reason you have proven it to yourself is because you are making Ooba's fakeclaim sound prettier than it was. Kanye wasn't a viable lynch option until Ooba fakeclaimed. Garruk had not even come close to working his way to conftown.

Both fakeclaims were equally bad. There does not have to be scum among them, and Ooba's was just as (if not more) dubious than Benmage's, so your analysis is just wrong.

Re deep:

1) they commented on it, which you can verify yourself. I never said they took a stance. Why wouldn't scum be able to take a stance, do you think?

4) I don't know what impact FF would have on your game. What impact does he have on your game? Wrt llamarble, llamarble can't coach him on something he has no understanding of. Which is sort of obvious and a point I feel I brought up before. His posting here and in Space Maria is pretty comparable. Yes there were points where he posted more in Space mafia, but... So?

1) The only comment they made was that we shouldn't put off sorting the 1v1...which is exactly what they proceeded to do.
4) I think it's a mistake to base hydra reads on single heads while ignoring the partner, which you have done on both Borden and us. Marble doesn't need to understand it if Empire does--are you suggesting that Empire doesn't know what it takes to get townread by Tammy and Tierce? Because the combination of Empire's knowledge of his own meta + Marble's ability as a scum player seems like a prime recipe for fooling them. Why can't you see this?

And the point is, he sacrificed time he could have spent in this game (where he was universally townread since D1 and had caught 0 scum) to recalibrate on D1 of Space Mafia. Do you think town-Borden led by Empire who had had such a shitty towngame would choose D1 of a new mini over trying to figure this game out? Because I don't.

@ Magua: I'm only seeing four possible Borden votes--you, us, Ben, Titus. Do you see two more? If not, vote Alchemist.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I'll believe it when I see it.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Unvote
Vote: Alfred

[Messiah Complex]

Magua, being concerned about a flashwagon when Ben, Titus, and ourselves have all been calling him scummy independently but have not have the support for his lynch is kinda weird.

Is it cold feet or strictly a no derphammers thing? Your comment to Ben made that kind of unclear.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Desp is not playing like he did in NY 164, and they are overall very needlessly hostile (literally textbook what I do as scum. There is actually a textbook.)

I take it you were just bullshitting when I addressed this earlier and you said it was a moot point?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

It seems very very remarkable that Messiah, TA, and Titus decided that it was to compromise all around the same time.

COMPROMISE?!?!

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

1) they didn't have a chance to comment because we lynched quadz.i ask you again why it makes them scum.

I'm done. Borden said we shouldn't put off the Quadz/SD 1v1 on p150 and Quadz got lynched on p158. That was four days where marble posted nothing and all Empire managed to produce was...three town cases on Ben, AGar, and you.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

It seems remarkable that three people were online on a Sunday afternoon between 4 and 6?

Are you fucking serious right now Nacho?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I said that you being scum because you were hostile in this game and not that one was a moot point but nonetheless a) your hydra is still needlessly hostile and b) you are not playing like you. Those points are simply not related anymore.

Is there anything else to your meta read beyond Maniacal?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

It's cumulative. They avoided the Quadz lynch while saying we shouldn't put it off. They avoided the Spyrex wagon like the plague. They pushed Thor and Amrun. They hammered PnJ prematurely and then doubled down on Goat the next day. They turned on Kanye (a super townread pretty much all game). And they did the same to Garruk yesterday.

I don't care how pretty Empire's words were the first three days. They have done NOTHING to contribute to a town win condition despite being universally townread for the first six days (I swear to god I've already typed those words before), so

why are they town?!?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

And all chose to vote the TA counter wagon at the same time. Do you disagree? Is that just a normal thing for you to see and not at all worthy of comment?

When "at the same time" essentially means "when Borden's lynch finally appeared to be a potential outcome and not a pipe dream" then yeah, I think it's totally normal and not worth commenting on.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

I said that you being scum because you were hostile in this game and not that one was a moot point but nonetheless a) your hydra is still needlessly hostile and b) you are not playing like you. Those points are simply not related anymore.

Is there anything else to your meta read beyond Maniacal?

- Des

Have I played with you elsewhere that I am forgetting?

Exactly my point.

Have you even bothered to look at any of my other games to confirm that "this isn't me?"

PS that was rhetorical. I know you haven't.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

Avoided the quadz lynch: how was this scummy? I could see how it would be scummy if they defended him or tried to put his lynch, but they didn't do either of these things. Sure, they didn't talk about the spyrex lynch! I also pushed Thor and Amrun, neither of those things are points. They hammered chesskid and Dan when they were going to get lynched. They hammered Goat when he was going to get lynched. They turned on Kanye and garruk when there were claimed guiltes on both of them, so how the hell is that a point against them?

You can discredit the actual town case on them and call it pretty words if you'd like, but holy shit it's more than that as is documented in thread.

You are so lost.

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

And all chose to vote the TA counter wagon at the same time. Do you disagree? Is that just a normal thing for you to see and not at all worthy of comment?

When "at the same time" essentially means "when Borden's lynch finally appeared to be a potential outcome and not a pipe dream" then yeah, I think it's totally normal and not worth commenting on.

- Des

Because Benmage voted? Even though Benmage was figured into the "people who would vote Alfred" pile all along?

I had already said we had 4 votes. All it took was a wildcard vote from Alch to get him to L-1.

So yes, because Benmage voted and removed the inertia obstacle.