Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[AndrewS]

I must dissent, if the consuls are serious about their proposed execution. Battle Mage may or may not be scum - we have no way of knowing this. Simply executing him for personal reasons, however, is a mark of scum. I object to this in the strongest sense. I am not prepared to vote for Tribune yet, I need to see more from the individual players.

[AndrewS]

I'll be honest - at this point, I feel that we are fighting against our consuls. This is not a good thing. Rand, I would think it was all a complete joke too - except that I know Battle Mage's history. He IS usually targetted day 1, and many are serious about it. Also, mod, a rule clarification if we could - if the tribune vetos a person, can that person be re-scheduled for execution?
I'll be honest - I'm not feeling BM as tribune. Sure, it may prevent him from being executed, but I feel that we really should vest that power in a stronger player.

Vote for Tribune: Mastermind of Sin

[AndrewS]

Actually, Panzer, this provides us a reason that you

shouldn't

be tribune. If you already have 2 vetoes, giving you a 3rd is vesting too much veto power into a single individual. We want those vetoes spread out.

[AndrewS]

I don't believe you. That seems

really

odd.

[AndrewS]

Primate: Sorry, I hate to be so suspicious, but I was in another game where a similar situation arose, and a player nearly got lynched for absolutely silly reasons. At any rate, my best suggestion is MoS/Mole for Tribune, but I can only vote for one.

[AndrewS]

As a second, I nominate Mole.

Unvote, vote for consul: Mole

[AndrewS]

Panzer: It's not that - we just don't believe your claim.

[AndrewS]

Primate - there were two games that I've seen recently where people were lynched with very, very silly reasons. One is ongoing, so I cannot talk about it. The other was a newbie game, in which Klebian hammered on page 2 for absolutely no reason. Apparently he had promised himself that if the game ever got to lynch -1, he would hammer regardless of the situation. Logically, we lynched him the next day, and he was town. At any rate, this and the other game has made me rather suspicious about certain actions such as that. My apologies, though, I guess I should have realized that you folks were joking...
As for Panzer's claim - is it logical for

anybody

to claim this early? It seems to me that he's a newbie that wants the security of the Tribune spot, either as mafia or town. I could see him getting it, then refusing to use his second veto, saying that he agrees with it.
Kison: I'm not saying that because he has 2 vetoes, he's scum - I'm saying that I find it dubious that he does, indeed, have 2 vetoes.

[AndrewS]

MAJOR FOS: PANZERJAGER!

I have a role with a small ability, and

I don't have a name![/b] Someone can correct me if there is another named role...

[AndrewS]

Er, take your pick of whether that's italicized or bolded.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)

[AndrewS]

But that's just it! If I recall (And someone more well versed in Roman history can help me here), Cato was a soldier during the Second Punic War, not a statesman. Considering this, how could he be known for his speaking ability?

[AndrewS]

No, he means Furom. Don't you know that Cato was a furry?

[AndrewS]

But can you get two vetoes every time you are Tribune? Ask the mod for clarification if you don't know. If we can eventually confirm you are protown, it makes sense for you to be Tribune EVERY day, since that'll give us an extra veto each day.

Now let's not jump to conclusions here...Even if Panzer has this ability, it's not necessarily wise to let the same player have it repeatedly.

[AndrewS]

That's WIFOM.

[AndrewS]

Alright, back on topic.

I think that I can summarize the argument against Panzer quite easily. That is such:

We can reasonably assume that the chances of both consuls on a given day being scum are slim to none. We can also assume that on most days, the consuls chosen will be reasonably good players. Ergo, for as long as we have 2 consuls, we have at least one super-tribune - IE, one person who has unlimited veto and cannot be executed. This, of course, changes when we reach dictatorship, but that's on down the road a good bit.

Therefore, is that second veto

really

going to be that useful this early in the game?

Furthermore, there is a major question here to consider. In regards to veto, is quantity or quality of the veto more important? No offense, Panzer, but you are newer to the game and I'm not exactly sure that your powers of scum-hunting are going to be as good as, say, MoS'. That ability develops with experience.

Right now, I'm honestly leaning towards a pro-town Panzer at the moment. That doesn't mean that we should elect him Tribune, however.

[AndrewS]

Also, I have to say that I am not feeling the Raffles wagon. He's only made 2 posts of substance, defending Battle Mage and Panzer respectively. Let's analyze the wagon...

Raffles - Self-vote
Cephrir - No reason given
Battle Mage - Voted for him because he was defended by him?
Panzerjager - Same?

In other words...

FOS: Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager

[AndrewS]

Raffles - the question wasn't

whether or not you could make substantial posts,

it was

whether you actually

had

. In other words - there is absolutely no reason for you to have such following - yet you do. Why? Is this inexperienced scum attempting to support one of their own, not realizing that they were giving themselves away? Newbies blindly following the person that they see the most? Quite frankly, I'd like to hear explanations from everyone who voted for Raffles as to why. It makes no logical sense.

[AndrewS]

That's not an explanation. Please explain your previous vote.

[AndrewS]

Oh, and Cephirir - I went back and found post 61....Doesn't help a whole lot. He had made 6 posts before that, but 5 were one-liners, and didn't give a person much to base things on. What gave you this pro-town vibe?

[AndrewS]

Sorry to triple post but, mod, could we get a prod on Timmy? He's not posted.

[AndrewS]

Raffles, my FOS was much less on you and much more on Cephirir, Battle Mage and Panzer. It seemed rather opportunistic that BM and Panzer would vote for someone who defended them, and Cephirir really provided no reason. Of the four on that wagon, I find you the

least

scummy, because I can understand a self-vote. And yes, I realize that you have commented on the major issues in the game, but I felt that at the time that they placed their votes, there was not enough evidence to support you as tribune.

[AndrewS]

Paragraph 1, who are you calling either naive or scum? I don't see how that follows that any of us would be either naive or scum if both consuls were mafia. I am not discounting the fact that it is entirely possible, but...Well, let's look at the odds. 21 players, we can guess roughly 4 are going to be scum. That's about a 1 in 5 chance of one being scum. Of 2 being scum, the chances are about 1 in 25. It also does not follow that the tribune should be a less experienced player - the mod uses random numbers, and does not pick all players of a certain experience level to be scum.

As for the assertation that I am sucking up to Raffles, that's rather absurd. Raffles is the least suspicious of the bandwagon - he took no actions which I find scummy. What I want to know is, what made you, Cephirir and Panzer suddenly want to elect him when he had said nothing of real import.

[AndrewS]

MoS - I nominated you, then Mole - but it turns out that Mole isn't nearly as active as he was back when I was here the first time.

[AndrewS]

Oh, and Mordor, in response to my not nominating myself...

2 things:
1. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the best player here, by any means. Considering my recent performance in other games, I'd say that I'm certainly not. That being said, if the town wishes me to serve as Tribune, I will - but I won't push for it.

2. I've always thought that it was rather, hmm, how to put this...unsportsmanlike to vote for oneself in things like this, or to nominate oneself for things like this. Compounded with 1, that explains why I did not nominate myself, and why I'm not voting for myself currently.

[AndrewS]

Battle mage: Read the rules. The Consulmaker MUST be town. As for whether or not he acted without information, he must have unless he was a cop (don't claim), or had another informational role. I would expect, however, that he would have to submit the choices at the same time. We can be certain, however, that he would not intentionally pick two scum as consuls. It is oh-so-tempting to ask for a BM execution for sheer annoyingness.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 6(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~, Toaster Strudel, Kison)
AndrewS - 3(Mastermind of Sin, Panzerjager, Raffles)
Raffles - 2(Cephrir, Battle Mage)
Kison - 1(mole)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

[AndrewS]

Zindaras - people have tried confronting him about this before. Generally, he ends up lynched, as town, and nothing really gets accomplished. Maybe we all (including the mafia) agreed not to act tonight and we executed him, we could further ourselves regardless of his alignment. (Note: That was sarcasm)

On the other hand, if we ignore him, then how are we to know whether he is scum or (heaven forbid) town?

[AndrewS]

Yeah, I suggest keeping BM alive for today - but still, we should take everything that he says with not a grain, but a few pounds of salt.

[AndrewS]

I think that if we're going to get anywhere, we're going to need some prods.

[AndrewS]

Ditto with Mole - he's shown little interest.

[AndrewS]

Why not state that initially?

[AndrewS]

A duck, you "quack" magician! Sir Bedevere would be rolling over in his grave...

As for who we need to kill, we need to get replacements first.

[AndrewS]

Ditto - I don't think that BM is today's execution.

[AndrewS]

That's a difficult question. I'm not entirely sure, but I would like to bring up a suggestion. I know that I've been haranguing Cephirir, but I'm still not happy with his justifications - he first voted Raffles because he "felt town", and later did a mock lynch vote on BM for no apparent reason. His posts have been 1-2 lines, and there's not really much of anything to suggest reasoning behind his actions. Right now, he looks like a strong candidate.

Alternatively, we could execute someone who's been lurking, but posting enough not to be replaced. Two spring to mind there - livingod and ubertimmy.

[AndrewS]

Why?

[AndrewS]

Yes, but why not Cephirir or Timmy?

I'm sensing something odd here...Cephirir and you were both on the Raffles wagon, and now you're both doing tihs...You didn't vote for him when he was the strongest candidate that I mentioned, yet you didn't dissent with my reasoning.

IGMEOY: Panzer

Vote: Cephirir

[AndrewS]

Timmy: Explain?

Primate: Explain?

(In reference to your votes)

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

Cephrir - 2(AndrewS, Battle Mage)
Rand Althor - 1(

Primate

)
Battle Mage - 1(Cephrir)
livingod - 1(Panzerjager)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(ubertimmy)

[AndrewS]

Since everyone seems to be so concerned about my very limtied claim, I'll explain. When Panzer claimed Cato, I was a bit surprised because my role doesn't include the name of the person. I believed this to be true with everyone at the time. Furthermore, it looked more like scum trying to validify a false claim because Cato was, if I recall, fighting during the war and not politicking. You can see that in the discussion. It was not my intent to fish, nor was it me trying to crumb for a role - I was simply trying to ascertain whether Panzer's claim was true or not. Also, which useless FOSes were you referring to? If it is the suggestion of 3 names once we entered the execution stage, I did that to start discussion. At the time, we weren't really getting anywhere - so I posted a few quick names off the top of my head.



As for today's execution, I still think that one of the lurkers who have been posting enough not to be replaced is probably our play. Timmy and Livingod are the prime examples of these. Timmy stands out more to me, though.

[AndrewS]

Flavor prohibits it? Unless we're fighting against Hannibal AND the Visigoths, but that's a bit later..

[AndrewS]

Hmm I know nothing of Roman history. Until this game, I thought Hannibal was a character out of a film/book. But anyway...

No, no, Hannibal was much more than that - he was a member of The A-Team!

*hums the A-Team song..*

[AndrewS]

Cephirir, that attack on me seems like little more than an opportunistic OMGUS. If you have a reason to suspect me other than the fact that I believe that you are most likely scum, then please, let us know. Furthermore, I cannot be executed today, as I was elected tribune.

Sorry, it just seems to me that you're trying to parrot everyone else without actually contributing anything, a classic scum tactic.

[AndrewS]

I'll just go ahead and say it - 2 mafias absolutely cannot,

cannot

work with this theme. It's impossible. This is about a real historical event. Nobody invaded Rome simultaneously with the Carthaginians.

[AndrewS]

Sorry, back, have been out of town. Will post tomorrow after I get a bit of rest. Initial reaction: Nothing has happened.

[AndrewS]

...what?

[AndrewS]

Nothing really new to jump on. BM makes no sense, as usual. He rather reminds me of The Bursar from Discworld. Agreeing on not leading. Still looking at the same 3 candidates.

[AndrewS]

Care to post something constructive?

BM, how on earth is it hypocrisy?

[AndrewS]

I will not veto the execution.

[AndrewS]

For now, we let him ramble. Later, if something bad were to occur (IE: He's consulmaker), we execute him.

[AndrewS]

@MoS,AndrewS-why do you want to kill the Consulmaker? hes protown, and is needed to lynch someone. The only people who would want him dead are scum, or psychopaths

Egad. Do you not see the giant rules post at the beginning of this game? Are you completely daft? If the current consulmaker dies, the role of consulmaker passes to a random Roman citizen. We were saying that we'd have to kill you if you were consulmaker, because in general, we don't trust you. If you'd like, we can meet over AIM and discuss how to improve your play...

[AndrewS]

Oh, and for completeness' sake:

Unveto: Battle Mage

[AndrewS]

You are a keen observer of the obvious, BM.

Huck, you don't have a veto.

[AndrewS]

Primate: The entire Rafflewagon is on your "Not Scum" list. Care to explain why?

[AndrewS]

Well, bah. Go [faction].