Balto the Invitational - Game Over

[Iecerint]

b. His ability is not a towntell in any way, shape, or form, and the use of such an ability in that way is scummy, not townish.

I guess you're right about this. He would have neighborized himself with someone he thought was town, ideally a town investi-PR.

Trollie, why did you link Fate and Reck?

Fate/Reck -- why did you think that Trollie-Neighborizer was town?

I don't think it's odd that more than one poor investigative ability might exist; I don't think it's a given, either, and I don't think it's a given that if they do exist, they are Nuwen and Triforce. I think Triforce's play surrounding their evolving claim is highly suspect.

What do you think of Triforce right now? Why?

I think your views here are valid, but I think the simplest interpretation is that Triforce and Nuwen are both town and investigative. Otherwise, we have to believe in an AD-Nuwen scumteam, and/or it will be dealt in the nightgame one way or the other if we are lucky.

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Why did you pick Reck and Fate, Trollie?

cuz its funny as fuck and cuz i think fate might be scum

Oh wow.

Unvote; Vote: Trollie

He deserves to be lynched for being a terrible player if he is town.

[Iecerint]

If you are scum, then you are probably more invested in the game than you are letting on, albeit in your QT.

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w/e dude

pedit meh i think they may be being iffy because they have moar shots or something (or to imply as much, or simply to justify not being NKd if they are scum) so i don't mind them being coy BUT it is probably legit to clarify the 100%ness of their town result on me.

[Iecerint]

I think your views here are valid, but I think the simplest interpretation is that Triforce and Nuwen are both town and investigative. Otherwise, we have to believe in an AD-Nuwen scumteam, and/or it will be dealt in the nightgame one way or the other if we are lucky.

Why are you discounting Triforce seeing an opportunity to softlclaim a result on you earlier today and taking it?

From my POV Triforce's play through ALL of D2 was basically a VERY LOUD softclaim result on me. Even without a flip!

I mean it was so obvious that it was independently picked up on by at least 3 parties (Iec, Beethoven, Amrun, maybe someone else too).

[Iecerint]

But why did you say AD and Nuwen would have to be scum together? Why can't AD be scum and Nuwen be town, or vice versa?

I think you're reading it wrong. NuwenScum means ADScum. ADScum doesn't say much about Nuwen.

I personally think AD is town, so that colors the probabilities on NuwenScum. I appreciate that this doesn't do much for you because you're also scumreading AD.

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NB: If AD is town and is bullshitting due to stupid pridethings, then that is very obnoxious.

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If Trollie is town, one of Reck/Fate are probably scum.

How does stuff like this make any sense at all?

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Don't ask someone why they have a scumread unrelated to current wagons 24 hours prior to deadline, and maybe you'll one day be on it [:

I was just so :eyerolling: at that during my catch-up that I had to post something. But it looks like he's town making crazy connections that make no sense, so whatever.

Unvote; Vote: Triforce

I would prefer to lynch Trollie, but I am happy to follow ActionDan on /outguess here.

[Iecerint]

Reck and Fate didn't have any role in causing anything?

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Meh, I could hammer Beethoven, but this is a less informative lynch than Triforce. But Triforce towntells in occasional posts, but that could just be that there are 3 of them.

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Why this flashwagon went and CDB didn't, not sure.

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Well, I guess it was at least partially due to Beethoven.

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Morning clownfucks.

CES are you going to be right about me this game? AND DGB;'s calling you town?

Pretty suspicious


It sure is nice to be able to voice these suspicious without fear of dying

immortality is beautiful

ETERNITY SON

VOTE: fate

Fate was the main architect of the Beethoven wagon. This is a terrible vote.

[Iecerint]

Why are you expecting popcorn? I obviously shot Reck. I don't know why Nuwen is being silly.

Why on earth would you shoot someone who was obvious towh, etc.

OK, I'll let the others do their thing.

[Iecerint]

Can someone explain the BeeScum -> AmrunScum logic to me.

I remember people mentioning it late yesterday, but it was never obvious to me.

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NO YOU IDIOTS

WILL YOU FUCKING LISTEN TO ME
and not be impulsive and shit for one second. Fate is obv scum. He is not being fate-town, the way he is responding to me SUCKS. this is fate scum. Please lynch this

Fate took what was going to be a lynch on Dan or Nuwen or whoever and made it a lynch on Beethoven. He is not scum probably.

However, it is possible that there could be multiple factions, since a) Beethoven flipped as Mafia Mafia, which seems to imply the existence of X Mafia, and b) he flipped in a funny magenta color. But this is relatively unlikely because CES claimed to have killed Reck.

So lynching Fate is pretty unwise.

I find your push on him to be so unnatural that I am now mentally entertaining Fate gambits with you as his scumfriend. That is how absurd this push is.

[Iecerint]

And my role is BBmolla's Shoes on the Table, 1-shot Day 1 self governor

aligned with the

Mafia Mafia

.

Just me?

This is very workmanlike.

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We could do a mass "Is your flavor from Mafia, or non-Mafia?" claim.

To be honest, I doubt Faraday would do that without providing fake claims, and I highly doubt Matt would ignore his fake claim.

I don't see anything wrong with this, other than that it could be a distraction-thing.

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This is very workmanlike.

I'm not in it for style points. I don't believe you'd have brought this up if you didn't already think I was scum.

I meant it as a compliment.

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That isn't a confliction, and I think you're scum anyway, so I'm not too worried about it. It means I'll probably get lynched today, I guess, but hopefully when I die, people will turn around and lynch you, so it's cool.

No wonder you didn't want to claim properly.

Dan is probably town from what happened D2.

[Iecerint]

Dan, if someone is vanillaized prior to using their ability, could you rolecop their ability?

Also, how could you use your ability on both Nuwen and BB if you were one-shot...?

[Iecerint]

I think she is maybe claiming scum?

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With style, I mean.

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Amrun, do you actually have information from Faramina to share, or do you just want to be hammered?

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I mean it is now obvious what Mina must have told you.

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Why do people suddenly think I'm scum again? I guess it's because Amrun flipped scum?

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Anyway IIRC I noticed that Dan slipped that he'd used more than one action by yesterday and his action apparently still worked sooooo that would seem to suggest Iectown unless either Iecscum doesn't post his feelings in QTs and his scumfriends don't read his posts, or Iecscum & friends have no mechanism for dealing with actions.

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AD apparently thought it enough to waste his action on me which RUDE.

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Reading

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Vote: TheTrollie

I think the lack of N2 actions is suspect. TheTrollie has not responded to this that I have noticed. Someone being a multi-shot neighborizer plus "other stuff" seems unlikely to me.

KK votes are fine.

I think MattP will be easier to read when he has to do something other than complain about TheTrollie.

[Iecerint]

For whatever reason, I have not really noticed your enthusiastic engagement in non-Trollie things all game.

I have a gut town read on you, but I also had such a read on you in that Agency game, so.

[Iecerint]

I think the lack of N2 actions is suspect. TheTrollie has not responded to this that I have noticed. Someone being a multi-shot neighborizer plus "other stuff" seems unlikely to me.

This is awful, weak reasoning. Try harder please.

I have a better example of awful, weak reasoning for you:

Also, Trollie would have to be a super duper extra special level of terribad to have NO IDEA BBMOLLA WAS CONFIRMED as scum, because I can't imagine that it didn't come up in nightkill discussion at SOME point over the last two nights.

[Iecerint]

I think the lack of N2 actions is suspect. TheTrollie has not responded to this that I have noticed. Someone being a multi-shot neighborizer plus "other stuff" seems unlikely to me.

This is awful, weak reasoning. Try harder please.

I have a better example of awful, weak reasoning for you:

Also, Trollie would have to be a super duper extra special level of terribad to have NO IDEA BBMOLLA WAS CONFIRMED as scum, because I can't imagine that it didn't come up in nightkill discussion at SOME point over the last two nights.

I suppose that would come with the assumption that he didn't neighborize anyone N2, but not sure why people are assuming that?

Then I see little harm in his clarifying this.

Makes more sense for him to do it than whoever else.

Though there are only very rare cases where at least 1 of the two neighbors can't indicate that neighborization occurred safely.

[Iecerint]

I'm pretty sure this is just a flavor claim rather than a full massclaim.

I'm Reck's Reaction to the Red Wedding.

I suppose Trollie.

[Iecerint]

K, you can just go.

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Unvote; Vote: Kublai Khan

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Wow scum really don't give a shit about confirmed town apparently

...

More like other players are also basically confirmed town.

@CDB - ActionDan already confirmed me as someone who at any rate didn't kill N1-N3, but go to town.

[Iecerint]

Wow scum really don't give a shit about confirmed town apparently

...

More like other players are also basically confirmed town.

@CDB - ActionDan already confirmed me as someone who at any rate didn't kill N1-N3, but go to town.

he only confirmed you as not killing when he copied nuwens shit, seeing as he fliped as a ONE SHOT whatever the fuck

Yes, that is literally what I just said in the text that you quoted.

He copied Nuwen's ability, which he claimed by inference checks whether a player has killed.

[Iecerint]

Plus whatever Triforce did N1. I can't remember if they ever claimed it outright.

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Either people are going to vote us or not, but we have nothing to hide and we're essentially vanilla now and Iece is town, etc.

I'm referring to their claimed N1 action. I think they only ever claimed this much about it, though.

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Plus whatever Triforce did N1. I can't remember if they ever claimed it outright.

They've claimed vanilla.

I thought they claimed "effectively vanilla." Since they did it in the same breath where they called me town, I inferred that they had some kind of 1-shot thing that they used on me N1, making them subsequently effectively vanilla.

[Iecerint]

Hmm, I see what you mean, but then they subsequently post stuff like this:

Also, you're kind of overlooking that Beethoven and Triforce are essentially the same vanilla now that they've claimed to already have used their role.

So it's possible that the apparent re-claim of vanilla is really just weird use of English.

Triforce should clarify whether or not they were always vanilla.

[Iecerint]

Hmm, I see what you mean, but then they subsequently post stuff like this:

Also, you're kind of overlooking that Beethoven and Triforce are essentially the same vanilla now that they've claimed to already have used their role.

So it's possible that the apparent re-claim of vanilla is really just weird use of English.

Triforce should clarify whether or not they were always vanilla.

That quote was implying that because Beethoven claimed to have used their "one-shot" role, they were no more useful alive than we were, since we claimed (are) vanilla town.

It was some argument that someone was making about lynching vanilla over a power role or something, and the fallacy was that they weren't technically a power role anymore.

We never claimed or implied any kind of power role after we claimed to be Vanilla and name-claimed after that.

My point is that your use of the "now vanilla" language could have been cross-supplied to your own claim (i.e., "vanilla" only subsequent to an ability usage).

But thanks for the clarification.

[Iecerint]

I count like 5 posts that were worth making Today (seriously, Iece, what the fuck are you doing?).

Responding to others.

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I hope that response was intentionally useless. Can you play mafia rather than converse about irrelevancies?

Flipped town's result on me was not irrelevant to the topic under consideration, nor was Triforce's hypothetical result on me (now clarified explicitly prior to their flip). These were in fact the most relevant material from the entire game to the topic under discussion.

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My position on this game is that Trollie feels easy but that doesn't mean he isn't scum.

So I am trying to decide whether to try to come up with something else or just go with it.

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I don't really particularly have any scumreads on any living players, so it is hard for me to make a post about any particular player at this point. I should probably reread to address this, but haven't.

I think CDB is on the scummier side. The only reason he's not clearly on the scummier side is the Amrun stuff, but it occurred after her wagon was already kinda chugging along, so it may have been a within-group interaction. This is something I will look at again. MattP and Zdenek after that.

MattP, please post the case.

[Iecerint]

Please post what you had speculated about.

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Actually though Iecerint is only confirmed not to have killed two nights, not three like AD said, and I assume so that's N1 and N3 or N2 and N3, and I'd assume Nuwen used her cop N1, which means that Iecerint didn't kill when there were presumably 4 and 2 scum left, which isn't that spectacular

My inference was that AD's action tested whether a player had ever killed someone prior to that point.

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AD also would've already used his one-shot, so it wouldn't have mattered.

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MattP's flavour (clearly linked to his role) checks out well enough as 'not a format of mafia played at the meet'.

Huh?

[Iecerint]

MattP's flavour (clearly linked to his role) checks out well enough as 'not a format of mafia played at the meet'.

Huh?

All flipped scum have had flavour that is explicitly 'a game of mafia played at Balto Meet'. 'BBmolla's shoes on the table' does not fit.

Oh, right, I totally forgot about his D1 claim thing. That is actually an excellent point.

But it could be that his role is Greatest Idea mafia.

But Amrun already flipped as that, so MattP is pretty town. This also makes me relatively sure that you are town.

VOTE: Zdenek

[Iecerint]

Iec: me
BBmolla: mod-confirmed
MattP: pretty confirmed, will reread context D1 to confirm
ChannelDelibird: Amrun interactions, plus reminding of clearing MattP when people had forgotten

Zdenek Grimmjow
Triforce (Singersigner/quadz08/Glork)

[Iecerint]

Are we pretty sure at 1 more scum, or could there be 2?

[Iecerint]

I'll glance through stuff to ascertain the outside chance of it being Triforce. Only other case I can see is if there are 2 more and they're MattP-CDB, but that requires conspiracy-thinking and I am probably willing to assume against it unless new info appears.

[Iecerint]

If you think that I am scum, you should probably give up on mafia because LOL at those interactions happening between scum buddies.

1. Remind me of these interactions.

2. Who do you think the scum is?

[Iecerint]

He is not in this game.

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The main thing your slot means to me is that it used to be Grimm's. I do notremember particular salient or stand-out-y other-player things, so show me if I am mistaken.

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Please do not waste my time.

If you think something is so salient that it makes you obvtown, please point it out so that I can consider it.

If you do not really have any such content, do not pretend as much.

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OK, I am going to make a reasonable presumption that your post was grandstanding, and the reason I don't remember anything is that it doesn't exist.

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That is in no way behavior that shows that you are not scum with Amrun. You replaced in at a time when heat on Amrun had since died down and she was being viewed as more town. It would be the perfect time to distance from Amrun, especially in the context of reflecting on D1 content that everyone agreed was on the scummier side.

[Iecerint]

OK, so, to humor you, I went back and looked for all of your content during the time of the Amrun lynch (probably the most telling a priori Amrun content IMO; YMMV). It looks like you basically only made a single post (early at day start prior to the set-up spec Dan posted leading to her lynch on logical grounds, etc):

Vote: Amrun

I have also confirmed that you were posting on the site during this time, so this low activity is not attributable to having limited access to the thread during that time.

You were also opposed to Beethoven being lynched (I noticed this because when I went to confirm that the above was your only post, it was the post previous in the chronology), despite previously calling him "pathetic." You also voted Triforce with Beethoven during this time despite him being pathetic and not understanding the basis of scumBeethoven's suspicion for Triforce. You also listed Amrun as null rather than scum on your scumlist during Beethoven's lynch despite your apparently being such a marvelous crusader against Amrun.

So, yeah, not convinced.

@BB - AtEs, etc., that detail is probably neutral

[Iecerint]

IMO the main reason not to think Zdenek is scum is that you will feel sheepish if Reck is grouchy beyond the grave if Grimm ends up having been town despite Zdenek looking scummy IMO.

In other words it is all non-thread-related content.

[Iecerint]

Now I would love to know if there is in any way a feasible case against Triforce so that I can assure myself that this isn't all confirmation bias.

My recollection of Triforce is basically that they got friendly from D2 on and that is all I remember.

[Iecerint]

If you think I am ignoring things, you should probably indicate them instead of being difficult for no reason.

This is what I did:

1. Iso you focusing on Amrun wagonday. Notice that you literally made 1 post despite your just having been like OMG AMRUN INTERACTIONS MEAN I AM TOWN
2. Confirm that you posted only once without logics before logics (cuz I was kinda incredulous that you were all blahblahblah re: above and the above had also happened).
3. Notice some inconsistencies with Beethoven/Amrun from the day prior to that due to the chronology of your posts (e.g., because you posted only once) that also fit with you being scum with Amrun/Beethoven.

And that is all.

[Iecerint]

Zdenek, I obviously do not remember your voting and lynching history. I am not pretending to know it. That is why I am asking for your recollection of content you perceive to the relevant to the current situation. If you are town, this will be useful. If you are not town, this may still be informative.

Glancing at your iso, it looks like you have at different times had scumreads on basically all living players except for MattP and BB (though you indicated that CDB wouldn't be scum with Kublai).

And your stuff with Kublai looks more legit than your stuff with Amrun, to your credit.

[Iecerint]

(This reminds me that townTrollie's response to the "Pokemon Battle" claim from AD was completely bizarre. Off-topic and irrelevant.)

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I am not the Pikachu do not be absurd.

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I don't have anything in my PM that forces me to accuse people of being the Pikachu upon this stuff starting. I have flavor that has nothing to do with the Pikachu.

Perhaps this is the implementation of the Pikachu? O.o

[Iecerint]

Guys this is serious.

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And I still think that there is a reasonable chance of the Amrun vanillizing CDB thing being staged.

That much is true, but bringing up the MattP stuff was awfully nice of him if he is scum.

[Iecerint]

Unvote

No need for hammers yet IMO.

[Iecerint]

For someone so concerned about reading shit into all of my posts, Triforce seems awfully eager to give Amrun the benefit of the doubt with categorically-misleading language usage.

(NB: This is a post about Triforce, not Amrun.)

Rereading my iso reminded me of this, though Quadz did clear this up at the time to be fair.

[Iecerint]

Zdenek, what exactly was your point against Amrun re "a+ posting Reck" if not buddying?

I think it's strange that she complimented the posting of someone she is scum reading.

This.

As I understand it, her response explanation was that her "compliment" was really just designed to encourage Reck to keep posting, regardless of how she felt about his posts.

Also this.

[Iecerint]

I do not understand why the clusterfucks are more likely to be scum?

I mean I think AD is town, and AD is confirming Nuwen or something. Nuwen is a claimed shit cop.

In a game this size, there is more than a shit cop. So Triforce as another shit cop makes sense.

Neighborizing Fate and reck N1 is a decent enough towntell for Trollie (cuz it means he probably didn't do the kill and it's a kinda useless ability, but scum may just have a goon, anyway), but it's weaker than the above.

So someone like CDB, who didn't play the day and just kind of let this happen, makes a lot of sense as scum.

And this

[Iecerint]

^ Read "actually viable scum wagons" as "ActionDan".

Townreads: KK, CES, CDB, Reckoner, Molla (where you at? : ( )
Weaker Townreads: Fate, Amrun, Matt, Iec, Gamma?

Potentially willing to lynch anyone not listed above ^.

Why the hell do you have a town read, let alone a strong town read, on CDB?

[Iecerint]

Does anyone have AP scumfriend meta?

Is he a friendly scumfriend?

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Seriously, does any of my play around then look like I have any kind of plan to protect anyone and/or go after preferred targets?

I think the main case on you is that you have kinda been like LERKANLERKANLERKAN.

The main thing that would implicate you is dead people.

[Iecerint]

I'm a bit irritated that MattP didn't mention the wagon/push on me or give a read on me in his recent posting.

Please do not post things like this because MattP is not scum unless he is Pikachu and Pikachu winning this game would be precious and a sweet ending to everything and therefore OK so who cares about MattP.

[Iecerint]

@Zdenek mechanism of recent threadsearchin was ctrl+f and living players on my own iso fyi.

[Iecerint]

Seriously, does any of my play around then look like I have any kind of plan to protect anyone and/or go after preferred targets?

I think the main case on you is that you have kinda been like LERKANLERKANLERKAN.

Well, gosh, that doesn't sound like me at all.

The main thing that would implicate you is dead people.

Not really.

Oh? What do you think would implicate you?

[Iecerint]

Zdenek I agree with CDB re: postin stuff rhetorically; please digest it for people like me who can't be bothered to read 6 paragraphs. The digestion also has its own value.

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I mean it was so obvious that it [Triforce's softclaim] was independently picked up on by at least 3 parties (Iec, Beethoven, Amrun, maybe someone else too).

Something I noticed. O.o

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Yeah, you can explain that particular point as scum wanting to pick up on breadcrumbs, anyway.

I'm just reminding myself of things that have happened that seem potentially relevant.

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Well, I think I might've already voiced it before Beethoven did, though. I would have to check the chronology.

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Clarification: Do you think that scum is Zdenek, CDB, me, etc?

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My own feelings keep shifting around slightly, so I figured it didn't hurt to get clarity.

They will probably solidify soon.

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It is so doublethinky that you're both implicating me with ellipses-laden sentences and giving me BEETHOVEN HATES US posts to chew on. >_<

But I guess that is kind of how the game goes?

[Iecerint]

So it's clear at this point that Amrun and Beethoven were distancing from KK and probably trying to make him look more town. Assuming four scum, chances are the last one wasn't bussing Beethoven with KK, which leaves us with Iecerant an zdenek. In light of a recent realization that zdenek probably isn't suicidal and had every opportunity to push a lynch on us instead of Amrun at the beginning of D3, we're thinking it might actually be Iece...

Perhaps it was a different hydra poster?

[Iecerint]

Albeit a plural one.

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So it's clear at this point that Amrun and Beethoven were distancing from KK and probably trying to make him look more town. Assuming four scum, chances are the last one wasn't bussing Beethoven with KK, which leaves us with Iecerant an zdenek. In light of a recent realization that zdenek probably isn't suicidal and had every opportunity to push a lynch on us instead of Amrun at the beginning of D3, we're thinking it might actually be Iece...

Perhaps it was a different hydra poster?

It was a different head, but true nonetheless. We wanted you to think about your own logic and see what opinion of us you can form from it. This was inspired because you said you hadn't solidified your thoughts on the players left in the game, yet.

Well, the standard game of wagonlogick implicates Zdenek, I suppose.

Somewhere in there people voted you because AD guessed that you weren't investigative, which led to lots of sheeping (not that scum wouldn't be happy to also do it if you're town, etc).

[Iecerint]

Oh wait, forgot I was going to respond to this:

So it's clear at this point that Amrun and Beethoven were distancing from KK and probably trying to make him look more town. Assuming four scum, chances are the last one wasn't bussing Beethoven with KK, which leaves us with Iecerant an zdenek. In light of a recent realization that zdenek probably isn't suicidal and had every opportunity to push a lynch on us instead of Amrun at the beginning of D3, we're thinking it might actually be Iece...

Perhaps it was a different hydra poster?

It was a different head, but true nonetheless. We wanted you to think about your own logic and see what opinion of us you can form from it. This was inspired because you said you hadn't solidified your thoughts on the players left in the game, yet.

Well, the standard game of wagonlogick implicates Zdenek, I suppose.

Somewhere in there people voted you because AD guessed that you weren't investigative, which led to lots of sheeping (not that scum wouldn't be happy to also do it if you're town, etc).

Huh? What does that have to do with anything...

Relevant to why you might have had a long town flashwagon

[Iecerint]

Oh, ok, gotcha.

Well you still haven't really given a solid opinion on 1. whether you think it was an all-town flashwagon, 2. if you think there were three scum rung up at the end of the day, or 3. if you think CDB or MattP could be scum.

Though I'd like everyone's opinion on that, please.

1. I think it is possible that Zdenek is scum, so it had 1 scum on it if he is scum. Otherwise, the wagon was all-town.

2.

Dunno what this refers to?

I actually hadn't noticed that the two alternawagons had both flipped scum, despite your coloring. XD That makes me more comfortable with Zdenek.

3. CDB, possibly. MattP, I don't think so. I am OK with complaining about the zany set-up if MattP is scum who wins.

Of course, either CDB or MattP being the scum would mean that the alterna-to-scum wagon was 100% town. Which would be interesting. But it has to be the case of Zdenek isn't scum, so.

[Iecerint]

As I said, everyone voting me has taken retard pills, but I'm so obviously a bad lynch that there is nothing I can do, if this is how you've decided to play.

What is your interpretation of Triforce's point that the two of us are the only unflipped on an all-town wagon on Triforce when the two alternawagons were both on scum?

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I obviously don't think that.

My point is that Zdenek indicated that he was "obviously" a bad lynch. It seems like there are pretty valid reasons for him to be viewed as something other than a bad lynch.

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Why does that lead you to vote me?

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Oh, nvm. I'd assumed you had been voting Zdenek.

[Iecerint]

But you can still answer.

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Yes, that would be valid [if not accurate in that hypothetical circumstance obvs etc] reasoning.

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You'll of course forgive me if I find that kind of rhetoric extremely scummy, though. <_<

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I still think that we should lynch one of Triforce and CDB.

Ok, so actually you didn't really answer the question yourself. Do you think we had an all-town wagon on us and/or that there were three scum rung up at the end of the day?

If you flip town, do

you

think Iece should be insta-lynched?

Nope, I think that if more than one of four scum are being wagonned there is good chance every scum is bussing.

But if Triforce is scum, this is true regardless....

[Iecerint]

I still think that we should lynch one of Triforce and CDB.

Ok, so actually you didn't really answer the question yourself. Do you think we had an all-town wagon on us and/or that there were three scum rung up at the end of the day?

If you flip town, do

you

think Iece should be insta-lynched?

Nope, I think that if more than one of four scum are being wagonned there is good chance every scum is bussing.

But if Triforce is scum, this is true regardless....

AND YOUR POINT IS?

You are voting Triforce, so you think that Triforce is the scum, but your explanation for us both being town doesn't work in that context. Seems weird.

[Iecerint]

Oh wow, 9 hours.

I'm hammering.

My position is that I think Triforce is either desperately trying to set-up tomorrow, or they just really think that Zdenek is town. But I don't really think they think Zdenek is town, at least not overstrongly, especially because their reasoning for suspecting me (i.e., wagon analysis that implicates me or Zdenek), well, also implicates Zdenek. They said something about not thinking its Zdenek due to him being "suicidal" in that context, but unless that's referencing something important I forgot, seems really disproportionate.

VOTE: Zdenek

[Iecerint]

Iece...why don't you respond to our last post to you? How do you claim that we're setting up "the next lynch" while calling us scum and clearly implicating that you think

we're

the scummy ones without Zdenek's flip?

1. Yesterday you said that I was scum and that Zdenek was town, but you did little to derail the Zdenek wagon while calling him town. My behavior is different from yours because I wasn't sure who was scum yesterday. I weakly preferred Zdenek, who was leading in votes, anyway, so I let things lurk out. You strongly preferred me, but did little to actually change the wagon. Scummy.

2. Your reasoning for differentiating Zdenek and me was irrational. The reasoning you used to identify me as scum also applied to Zdenek (i.e., wagon analysis), and the reasoning that you used to call Zdenek town also applied to me (i.e., not jumping on alternawagons). This irrationality occurred because you had an agenda and needed to construct content to fit your agenda.

3. Indicating who I think is scum when I hammer is appropriate because I might not be able to post it the next day. Other than Zdenek, my main suspects were you and CDB, and I thought it was more likely to be you. It's now pretty clear that it's you.

How do you feel about Matt's claims to be "obviously town" while simultaneously not really doing anything to help us win by being absent as fuck?

As delineated above, it was your own limited activity that was troubling yesterday, particularly because of your stated belief that Zdenek was not scum and that I was scum.

My activity yesterday can be cross-referenced with activity across the site. I've posted relatively little because I've been playing FFXIV all day.

MattP's flavor is non-mafia and his ability is proven AFAIK. Hence, he is very likely to be town unless he made a clever fakeclaim, and I am OK with losing to a clever fakeclaim.

Both of you...do you think there was an all town wagon on a third scum at the end of D2, or is the other one of you the last scum?

This is blatant scum behavior. It is purely rhetorical while pretending to be concerned with accumulating information.

I am going to go ahead and vote because I am extremely sure that the last scum is Triforce. This should not put anyone into quicklynch territory, so we can discuss

VOTE: Triforce

I think that a NL will lead to either BBMolla or MattP being killed. If BB has some reason for believing that he will not be killed, I am OK with NLing once on the offchance that Triforce or myself is instead killed (e.g., because BB understands why he won't be killed, and MattP is cleverscum).

[Iecerint]

It's almost assuredly Iec fwiw

I can understand you believing this on the basis of the wagon that Triforce posted (that's why I was OK with sticking with Zdenek even though there was some legit-looking Zdenek -> KublaiKhan attacks), but it's not the case.

Refer to Triforce's behavior yesterday for the best evidence I know of. The only other thing of note Triforce did this game AFAICR was attack me D1 during the Axxle wagon and then kinda lurk about, so I think yesterday is the most telling.

And if it's MattP, NL could potentially make that clearer, but I'm not going to seriously entertain that possibility unless something drastic is revealed.

[Iecerint]

I have nothing to add. Triforce's behavior yesterday makes them obvious scum from my POV.

The wagon snapshot they posted is compelling, and I don't blame people for falling for it, because I did yesterday.

If you think there is any chance of scum killing someone who isn't BB tonight, NL is the best option for today. Lynching me will end the game one way or the other; NL will not end the game and may lead to an unexpected outcome depending upon who the scum is and why BB thinks he won't be killed, etc.

[Iecerint]

It is obvious that no one is going to lynch a player who is not me today.

VOTE: No Lynch

[Iecerint]

BB, why the hell do you think I wouldn't kill you?

[Iecerint]

What does that have to do with me being scum? That would seem to apply regardless of who the scum is.

Your post at the top of this page implies that I'm particularly likely to not kill you or something.

[Iecerint]

Read my post at the start of the day. It is perfectly logical. Short-version: Triforce strongly felt Zdenek was town and Iecerint was scum (expressed both yesterday and today0, but did not put forth effort to stop the Zdenek lynch. Instead, everyone kinda lurked and waited for others to do something. In fact, their main evidence that supported scumIec also weakly implicated Zdenek.

Reread yesterday and today if you do not remember this. Should be short.

The main logic suggesting I am scum is scumTriforce's wagonanalysis that implicated Zdenek/Iecerint. The problem is that Triforce just happened to have an all-town wagon on her at that time. Also, 100% of the people being wagoned were scum. I can understand this being compelling -- I waffled and held onto Zdenek as a result of it -- but it is in fact a thing that happened in this game.

Zdenek thought I was town based on his iso of me, so maybe read that and see if you notice whatever he saw. I don't think he ever articulated why he thought that.

[Iecerint]

They were really quite shit D1. After that they just lurked to victory.

Though I guess the lurking was impressive given how many other scum were lynched. Little obvious evidence of scumfriend-protecting and the like AFAICT.

[Iecerint]

Matt was

Greaterest Idea Mafia

-_-

[Iecerint]

They were really quite shit D1. After that they just lurked to victory.

Though I guess the lurking was impressive

given how many other scum were lynched. Little obvious evidence of scumfriend-protecting and the like AFAICT.

You really think we lurked as much as Matt did, all things considering?

Nope, Matt also lurked all game. The only thing he did all game AFAICR was want to lynch Trollie.

[Iecerint]

why the hell does flavor even matter in a game with players of this supposed caliber

I'd ruled out Greaterest Idea (i.e., the way that MattP would be scum) because Amrun had already kinda flipped that. (Emphasis on kinda.) It's like giving 2 scum the same role in a theme game.

OH WELL. I feel bad that we were doing so well and then I was around toward the end. My posting on site has been more limited lately because I am obsessed with FFXIV. Sorry @ everyone.

Still kind of butthurt that ActionDan investigated me. <_<

[Iecerint]

I had thought it was:

Great Idea [not played much]
Greater Idea [pick 2 cards]
Greatest Idea [zany troll things]

But maybe Greatest Idea was retconned into Greaterest Idea after we used "one is role one is alignment" as Greatest? I think the Pikachu stuff was originally Greatest Idea when it was just the original group prior to the horde arriving over the weekend (i.e., because Greatest Idea-with-role/alignment had not been "invented" yet).

Pedit: I don't think getting mad at MattP makes much sense. If people had been more active we might have PoE'd him (myself included obvs).

[Iecerint]

Well, lots of people PoE'd lots of players throughout the game. Sometimes they were correct.

But you indeed had MattP and KK pegged in the letter of a night action you apparently sent to the Mod. XD

[Iecerint]

(Yes, I'm using "pick" to mean draw there.)

[Iecerint]

I mean, I'm fully aware I'm biased b/c obviously I was involved at the creation, but it's not like it's some zany unexpected imposibility shock twist. It seems a reasonably obvious choice for a mafia role.

Being in the set-up once, yes, it's a shoo-in. Being in the set-up twice, not so much.

The Greatest Idea Mafia wiki page even describes the Pikachu business as being an instance of the same "Greatest" phenomenon (i.e., rather than a categorically distinct Greaterest Mafia).

I could have seen Greater + Greatest, but two variants of Greatest is a little bastard IMO, especially when one of them gets flavor to confirm association with Greatest stuff.

YMMV, 's cool.

[Iecerint]

I personally had Zdenek as town because of his interactions with BOTH Beet and Amrun. You'd have to conjure up something wicked for those not to be genuine

I thought some KK interactions were legit, but the Amrun ones happened D2, when Amrun wasn't under much scrutiny at all. I could totally do that as scum.

Zdenek I stopped bothering with thinking about too hard after Triforce posted the wagon from D2.

[Iecerint]

Matt did enough to win, he towned pretty hard on Day 1 and managed to stay out of the limelight from then on.

He 'towned' D1 with a GOVERNOR CLAIM?

I don't get that at all. The "SHOES ON THE TABLE" thing was weird, yes, but governor is not remotely an obvtown role, so I fail to see how he skirted through to the end unphased.

It was all flavor-based, see above.

[Iecerint]

Looks like MattP made up his flavorname. Gj.

[Iecerint]

I'm not entirely sure what it was that people consider to be the flaw in the flavor. The fact that there was Greaterer and Greaterest? Or whatever? Why couldn't both be in the game?

Depending upon whom you ask and when during the meet you ask them, they are synonymous.

[Iecerint]

Faraday and Mina were both weekend-arrivers, though, so I can understand how this wouldn't necessarily be an obvious issue to pick up on during review.

[Iecerint]

Also, Greatest and Greaterest.*

[Iecerint]

When we originally devised what you are calling Greaterest Idea mafia (i.e., before you guys had arrived, when this wasn't even designed to troll singer but rather someone else whom I can't recall, I think maybe DGB or Fate), we were calling it just Greatest Idea mafia. Its name was retconned tongue-in-cheek when what you're calling Greatest Idea became a thing that we decided we would just play for ourselves (i.e., because the Pikachu thing never really happened).

I can understand why you have the perspective that you do and it's fine. <3

I think AP is just whiteknighting me.

[Iecerint]

I'm not entirely sure what it was that people consider to be the flaw in the flavor. The fact that there was Greaterer and Greaterest? Or whatever? Why couldn't both be in the game?

Depending upon whom you ask and when during the meet you ask them, they are synonymous.

Greatest Idea has a wiki page which never once mentions the Shoes on the table/glasses variant that was "Singer rules". I mean, the argument seems to be "you interperated the flavour differently, but your way is bastard", which I think is a little ludicrous, personally.

From the Wiki:

When originally played at the 2013 Baltimore "Balto" Scummers meet, the Greatest Idea setup included a secret addition in the form of a Self-Aligned "Pikachu" role card, which was required to be kept and not discarded. The Pikachu was the only card that would serve as both role and alignment, and its only function/ability was that it not be discovered. If the entire game passed without mention of the correct player holding the role of Pikachu, or if that player died and flipped before this occurred, the Pikachu player would win with any other faction(s) at the end of the game. Original Face-to-Face play also included slightly arbitrary rules and mechanics thought up by Scummers at the meet in an attempt to troll later arrivals.

(in fact Given what CDB said Day 3? We assumed the flavour was more than fine, with matt most definitely being "a thing very closely related to a mafia game"

On D6 CDB used the same flavor argument to indicate that MattP was nigh-confTown. This is basically why MattP went from being relatively suspicious to not a lynch candidate. (Incidentally, the validity of the reasoning is why I moved CDB from suspicious to not a lynch candidate.)

[Iecerint]

Again, I totally understand what you did and do not think this would have been caught unless a Day One Scummer had been a reviewer.

But I want to make clear that, had there been a Day One Scummer reviewer, there is a legitimate issue that may have been caught.

It's similar to if "Locutus" and "Locutus of Borg" were both in a Star Trek: TNG mafia game as scum, and one of them both had Picard as a fakeclaim and had Picard-specific flavor abilities.

Though I guess MattP took a minor leap and blind-fakeclaimed Picard in this analogy, so good job to him.

[Iecerint]

If Locutus has ever already flipped and you accuse someone who can only be scum if he is Locutus of being scum, I will laugh at you.

Pedit @ Nuwen

[Iecerint]

Yeah, that's a perfect and more elegant example.

[Iecerint]

I'd have loved for the target to be notified in a PM like, "I bet you're a townie! If so, you take one damage (you require one fewer vote to lynch)."

Daww, that would've been cute. <3

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I understand.

You could've always given that role to scum.

[Iecerint]

Would need a different scumtheme, though.

[Iecerint]

I do apologize to those who truly put their heart and soul in this game for my lazy play.

And to Iec

Meh, I wanted to lynch town on the last day, too. ^^

[Iecerint]

Fate was pretty obvtown though.