Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[pablito]

unvote: MoS

I'm fairly confused about this all. If anyone can point to significant events, significant questions I need to answer or significant actions I need to take right now, let me know.

I'll try to read through the entire game, but I don't know if I can be bothered to do so, so I'll at least read since beginning of D4.

[pablito]

First impressions:

reading D4 is tedious work.

I tend to confuse passionate posting styles with pro-town behavior. There's heaps of it with MBL and Ibby. Hell if I know if they're pro-town or anti-town, but I can't help but think they're pro-town because of it.

Things that immediately popped up for me:

Fuldu - somewhere he said that he wanted to be right about picking scumbags. I don't like that language. I'll have to find that quote sometime. Might not even have been him. I forgot where it was and can't find it again.

Pooky - I generally have no read on Pooky ever. Very interesting to read the interactions he has with others though. Also his scum+vig office theory smelled bad.

Ibby - no read, but I don't agree with armlx's suspicions on her based on the office. Nonetheless, armlx had unvoted when he realized that alignment and office were independent.

Uraj - I find him pro-town by the way he argues.

spectrum - I find her jabs to be suspicious. I know she replaced into the game, but it seems that her vote choices are very isolated and in the moment. Considering that it was in D4 when she made those votes, I'm curious as to what information she has gleaned from previous days and how it affects her suspicions. Also, she's pushing the "please replace these people" thing way too much. Almost as if she's taking on the duty of needing to do it.

StD/Max - I keep hearing Max was suspicious and StD doesn't seem to look extremely pro-town either. But I'd have to get more information because my feeling on everyone seems to be gut.

mathcam - I find the N1 roleblock to be significant information. I suppose it could explain lesser kills N1, but it's not conclusive evidence. But it appears that lingering suspicion combined with exhaustion from the crashes has brought us to mathcam quite quickly. I can confirm that mathcam is the office-switcher and that armlx performed that action during last night. Not sure why armlx switched himself with mathcam, but as we all know now Quinn is a vanilla and Kay is a office-switcher. Also, I highly believe that there are two or more office-switchers based on my information and that armlx knew of it as well.

Sorry, let me answer your question directly. I'm only answering for my role - I can't speak for MMoD.

I cannot blow up offices.
I don't know what happens if my target moves. I'm sure Yaw has an intricate ruleset designed to handle these scenarios.
I think this has already been answered by Uraj moving himself.

This information is all accurate.

[pablito]

Just to get things straight, N3 was the only night that MMoD failed to send in a night choice?

[pablito]

Later. I'm tired of reading and I can't remember offhand where that post was. It was more of a general feeling than a specific post.

[pablito]

likely. I just remember through my D4 read-through that I was only feeling Ibby and MBL was pro-town, so I thought I should expand my thoughts on others who might be pro-town. The next person that pinged pro-town during D4 was Uraj, but it wasn't until I was half-way through the read. Some post started it up and I haven't felt he was extremely anti-town since then. May have just been that I liked the way he approached things, it probably wasn't necessarily about what he specifically said - because I specifically do not remember who he was pushing as his suspect or as pro-town during that post. The only person whose suspects and pro-town inklings I made an effort to remember were from MBL - but even then, I remember that some of his efforts were too premature and that some of his moves were more to warn people about good or bad moves and that I did not always agree with his stance - but the way MBL made his moves felt pro-town to me.

However, it is important to note that my read-through consists solely of D4 so anything from before then would be lost on me.

[pablito]

I don't know, but for some reason armlx was willing to trust mathcam with the office-switcher role - so that means that armlx thought mathcam was pro-town, right?

[pablito]

Finally, an analysis on Uraj45.

I just put up all of his posts in isolation. I couldn't be arsed to read them in context anymore.

Uraj 4- I like his analysis on Ibby and MBL - not necessarily because of content but because how he says it. Yeah, weak.

Uraj 5 - I liked this post because I agreed that armlx said something that really wasn't up to speed.

Uraj 6 - I liked it because I was suspicious of spectrum at that time in the read through.

I liked how Uraj kept on pushing spectrum throughout up to post 13.

I must admit that leaving the vote on MBL because of inertia was a really wrong idea though. That's the first thing that I saw that was wrong with Uraj.

Wait, asking for an unretractable deadline? what was that for. I retract my trust of Uraj now. How is that ever a pro-town move?

Nonetheless, I think I have to agree that the mathcam block on N1 is the best evidence to go on. I'd have to read through some stuff to make sure it's a good move, but I don't see much reason for me to not vote mathcam in the near future.

[pablito]

True, I wasn't in during this day. I believe D4 has lasted two months, I can see that. But didn't you make the "unretractable" suggestion before "retractable"? Well that's not going to change my stance on you, but just curious to me.

[pablito]

Well, I feel compelled to do this.

vote: mathcam

And if armlx made a mistake and gave the office-switcher to someone anti-town, it's better to stop it. However, I don't know if MMoD's alignment either, so that oculd screw things up too.

But I find the roleblocking theory to the best thing out there right now, so I'll follow.

[pablito]

why Coron?

[pablito]

I could be up for voting Uraj45. I'm not trusting that spectrumvoid is pro-town, I still don't know if mmod is pro-town, but choosing to move Yosarian into any office wasn't an anti-town move. However, I'm a bit unsettled that he has chosen to move offices every night even though it's not necessary.

[pablito]

SV forgetting to vote mathcam yesterday and finally placing a vote once momentum on mathcam restarted...yeah that was scummy to me. Plus, with the whole roleblocking thing, I don't know. I'm not sure that SV is being extremely passionate about her choices and her convinctions. In a way, that's not necessarily an anti-town tell, but the way it all falls together isn't so great. And Uraj45 - right now it's position on the mathcam wagon - and gut.

Okay, sounds good enough mmod. If you hadn't tried to switch Yosarian last night, I might've thought you not so pro-town.

I remember for some reason Uraj sticking out on my initial read. I think I originally thought him fairly pro-town, but with MBL dying last night and MBL being one that challenged me on my thoughts on Uraj - I'm getting a nagging sense that a

vote: Uraj45

feels appropriate at the moment.

[pablito]

I'll do it again:

vote: Uraj45

[pablito]

Uraj, my vote on you is also somewhat based on gut. That's why it may look like a bad argument.

[pablito]

unvote: uraj45

I read through D1-D3 because I actually hadn't before. I'd only skimmed it. Now that I've read things, I've got a better handle on this game. And man was it frustrating to read at times.

What I got from the read:

Thok/Ibby did a lot of interesting poking. She poked at a lot of people who I didn't feel were suspicious (or at least on retrospect, like MBL, etc). Nonetheless, she was very quick on the bluemonick wagon and Ibby was very passionate about going against some people. Ibby had a very healthy pro-town-appearing curiosity. And Thok seems to be doing the same. Overall, then, I don't know what to think on Thok. But right now, I'll trust him.

Col Kurtz/Uraj - well I didn't realize that Col Kurtz was attacked quite a bit, and justifiably so. However, I'm just not so sure that a wagon on him could've really happend that badly during D2. I don't trust Col Kurtz's words, but I'm just not entirely sure that he's scum anymore. I was taking in too much of D4 Uraj into my previous opinion. But seeing Col Kurtz as well. I'm just not entirely sure.

Harry Potter/Quag - just too little to go on. But I don't like Harry Potter and I'm not sure what to think of this. Possibly scum right now. But I still have to re-read D4 again.

MoS - I especially don't like how MoS kinda defended Harry Potter. Also MoS seemed a bit distant and didn't always comment. Nothing particularly damning, but seeing this in my read now makes me raise the eyebrow.

SV -

unvote

I like mathcam's post 592. I'll go have another look at the three.

So why'd you roleblock him then? My read on you was that you were kinda trusting mathcam.

I wasn't so suspicious of SV before, but I'm not really getting any pro-towniness from her now or before.

As for the rest, things weren't eye-popping, so I'm not mentioning it.

[pablito]

I never understood why the Harry Potter wagon died down and never came back up again. As such, I'm going to

vote: Quagmire

[pablito]

Oh, and I think MMOD should give the office of Jack Kay to the most trustworthy townsperson. If scum kills MMOD (or if he's scum), then there's no way to recoup the office-switcher role, and it might be good to keep some confirmed good offices in the hands of people. It could be nice to ensure there's some blocking/protecting/killing mechanism in endgame if it helps our odds.

[pablito]

I'd be interested in what MMOD thinks.

[pablito]

Mod

, a prod on Quagmire, Save the Dragons, mystery meat of doom and PookyTheMagicalBear, please. None of these players have posted in the last 7 days.

[pablito]

I very much like my vote on Quagmire/Harry Potter, I think that's something to look back at tomorrow.

unvote: Quagmire

I think that right now, we have to lynch someone. There's no way around it. We squandered the day away and now we have to deal.

vote: Fuldu

.

Simply, I'm voting for the top vote-getter and it's not the best way of doing things. I may move if someone I find scummier gets votes as well

To respond to SV:

If I'm not supposed to block the person who I think is most scummy, wouldn't that be something like random blocking then?

I think you just came up with that question yourself independently right now. But I would hope it's in response to:

So why'd you roleblock him [mathcam] then? My read on you was that you were kinda trusting mathcam.

Because when I re-read the thread, I got the sense that you complimented mathcam and thus was finding him pro-town. So then it begs the question for tomorrow about why you bothered to block mathcam. I want to see where your thoughts changed. But right now, it pretty much seems like SV is blocking reasonably and I don't see enough to convict SV now.

[pablito]

Sooo...if you feel uncomfortable once Pooky jumped on, does that mean you're suspicious of Pooky? Then if so, why not address something toward Pooky?

[pablito]

unvote, vote: Save the Dragons

I like this vote very much. Unlike Uraj, it was StD's addition to the SV wagon that alarmed me.

[pablito]

I will switch to Fuldu if no one's going to be jumping over to StD.

[pablito]

unvote, vote: Fuldu

[pablito]

Well, are we actually in lynch-and-lose? And if so, how do you know that? and anyone else want to jump to Quagmire or StD?

[pablito]

what the hell is MMOD thinking then. and then what the hell is StD doing with this unvote, vote thing.

[pablito]

Well I doubt we're gonna get a claim from Fuldu, right? That kinda greys the cutting board.

[pablito]

MMOD, were you the reason we all switched offices? If not, did you attempt to switch someone before the event happened?

[pablito]

Btw, I can still go for a Quagmire wagon.

And it's likely scum are lurking in this game.

[pablito]

Thok, I question why you even bothered to list the possibility that SK/scum would give up a kill due to the rearrange.

[pablito]

vote: Uraj

because of yesterday's actions.

Regarding office switching, it could be interesting if scum was in possession of a vigilante office yesterday but lost that extra kill.

[pablito]

Uhhhh...SV, who do you think is the office-switcher?

[pablito]

Am I missing something here? I don't get what you guys are saying. SV, who do you think is the current office-switcher? I think there's one out there.

[pablito]

Yo, Uraj, stop trying to answer SV's question. That goes for everyone else.

Also. Uraj, to use some WIFOM, but I did jump to exactly the same vote as Fuldu yesterday. I find that to be a horrible and idiotic move by me. Do you think I'm stupid scum? Because I would hope you didn't.

[pablito]

Actually, this is stupid, why should I beat around the bush.

unvote, vote: spectrumvoid

And

FOS: Uraj

for forgetting and just being scum.

[pablito]

SV, you're either lying or you're

lying

. Which is it and why?

[pablito]

unvote, vote: uraj45

I just thought that Kay = switcher was just so obvious to SV that there had to be something up. I mean SV

did block

mathcam when he was switcher right? Or wait, SV blocked mathcam when he was Quinn...

Either way, I did not see the benefit of that gambit if SV is pro-town.

But the fact that SV pretended to forget everything about mathcam, who she pretty much helped initiate a lynch on, was very interesting to me. Thus the vote.

I feel more comfortable with the Uraj vote though because of yesterday's voting patterns.

But nonetheless, SV, I still don't get what was going on.

[pablito]

I/armlx was Kay, I announced armlx's choices before. Mathcam as Kay claimed office switcher. Why did you forget, and why aren't you paying attention.

Why do'nt you trust that I know what's in Kay's office? Especially because mathcam claimed the same?

[pablito]

I'm lying. I'm the new office switcher. I did this in a mini, where I outed scum who tried to claim the role.

Pablito: How did you know?

Based on post 1541, vote: uraj45

SV, I can see what you did...but during last day, I was urging MMOD to put Jack Kay back into action because I didn't like the idea of only having one office-switcher out there. Scum would've had to have been inattentive to not remember there's two office-switchers. Plus, claiming roles in this game is NEVER indicative of alignment - so it was a semi-foolish gambit.

That being said, I'm feeling better about SV. Not entirely sure she's pro-town, but I feel absolutely positive that Uraj is scum now.

Between the votes yesterday including the thrown-away vote for me (which was a foolish pro-town move, therefore confirming it was a scummy move) plus the way you defend yourself today and yesterday, Uraj must be scum.

If Uraj was pro-town and still wanted to invoke LAL - there are flaws with invoking LAL.

1) SV never explicitly lied. She withheld information. I said that she was lying or she was

lying

. I was right that SV was only

lying

which was my way of saying she knew she was the office switcher but didn't want to reveal and was trying to do something. But I called her on it because I got impatient and wanted to push her to see what the hell was going on. When SV admitted to lying it was directly in response to what I was saying. And that was

lying

not lying. You took her statement at face value instead of realizing that SV was just literally responding to me.

2) If you were genuinely angry and wanted to "lynch all liars", you would've been angry, maybe cursed some, made a fit and run away with some angry words. I would never expect someone who really wanted to lynch all liars to actually link to the wiki about it. You're too rational about sticking to LAL and further more it's overkill to link to the wiki. You wanted to prove your point. And only scum would do such a thing.

3) This has nothing to do with lying, but it's further proof that yo'ure scum...but you're explaining away your inattentiveness with the front post. It's a valid reason, but scum tend to place an external locus of control and town tend to place an internal locus of control. Scum tend to blame on others "the front post is confusing to me" whereas town are more likely to admit fault "I misread the front post". One of my most reliable tells. Also just for overkill, I'm going to point to how Kay is not exclusively the office of a dead person. I inhabited it and my name is listed first. Kay should be fairly visible on the player list. Also, if you're not looking at the offices and wondering about them, you're not thinking in a pro-town mindset or at least not trying hard enough.

Let's get this over with. We've caught scum.

[pablito]

You knew I was half-trying to set you up right?

It doesen't matter though. My vote won't be changing for the rest of the day. LAL is absolute.

I'm really not sure what you're doing. Either you're flailing scum or really not paying attention to the game. I would've expected more of a "well this game really is going slowly" response to your inattentiveness. And really, "I wasn't paying attention" would've sufficed as your entire response. Instead you tried to dissect each one of my points.

[pablito]

Well we can either go with some SV and Uraj argument and lynch one of 'em (or me)...

we can try to stir up some things about Quagmire or StD and their lack of significant participation in this game despite having scummy predecessors...

we can do a mass claim...

we can do a mass 'old office' claim...

or we can also do some sort of question phase where people ask what someone in their old office did.

For reference here's some changes:

Coron now occupies what Uraj45 had (IMPORTANT CHANGE)

Thok now occupies what Coron had.

StD now occupies what Thok had (I believe this was already claimed by Ibby)

Uraj45 now occupies what Pooky had (might be interesting)

Pooky now occupies what Quagmire had (I'd be interested in what's in there)

Quagmire now has BMQ's office. I don't think there was ever a claim, so I have no idea.

That's five of six so far that have offices that can be confirmable. I like that.

MMOD now has what CES had, and we know CES was pro-town.

SV now has what mathcam/armlx had, and we know what it is and SV confirmed it.

I have bluemonick's old office and that was never claimed.

MoS has what Bogre had and I don't think that was ever claimed (I'll have to look).

Now, knowing that there's practically six-seven confirmable roles out there, we could do some damage with that. Or at least we can make some interesting hypotheses. Now, I'm not advocating a mass claim. But if there's anything that someone found in their office which suddenly strongly incriminates its previous owner, you might want to think about saying something soon.

We were given a good opportunity, I think, with the corporate restruction at ACME. If we can take advantage of it, the town can prosper and kill more scums.

So, there's no way that there's nothing for you to talk about today. So get talking, get discussion up and let's try to get working and get this game done and over with.

[pablito]

nonetheless, we're lynch -2. And you know that inevitably we're going to be deadlined.

[pablito]

Nah, kinda more saying "claim if you want, but you're dead soon, anyway, so give up and claim scum instead"

[pablito]

Uraj's comments on me were regarding the following topics

I questioned why an unretractable deadline was necessary. Craplogic for trusting MBL's opinion of Uraj. Bandwagonning. My argument on him.

Yes you have been comment on me. But partly because I have attacked you...especially at a time when very few were onto you. You attacked me...when I attack you. I just gotta say that if you're gonna pull the "talking about pablito ever since he came in" card, I'm gonna have to pull the "talking about Uraj long before he got into the spotlight" card and that means nothing. But it just means that I'm cancelling out your card because my monster card has mystical BS roleblocking abilities against your weakling monster card. And then I'm going to play my mystical knight hammer card which will deplete your life force to only 100 life points, aya, victory!

Okay. So if you're pro-town, Uraj, I don't know, but don't attack me. I'm pro-town. armlx was pro-town (there's some evidence of this as well), so find someone good to unearth suspicions on. But I don't think you're pro-town, so feel free to try.

[pablito]

Don't mind, I do admit I'm not using the most logic possible in this game. Been relying more on gut for a while. And I have been harsh on you. Apologies if you come up pro-town. But I feel this is our best course of option.

[pablito]

So Pooky was the old office opener. Uraj, do you have any opinion on the choices of opening offices that Pooky performed?

[pablito]

I was thinking of not revealing, but then I realized...well viper/bluemonick probably told his scum partners that he had it, so it's of no consequence to claim if scum already know anyway.

There's an investigative kit in Jack Campbell's office. therefore cop. no mention of sanity.

[pablito]

You could have also asked if bluemonick's office was the office destroyer.

[pablito]

Wait a second, you're not voting anyone, Thok.

Also, why couldn't D5 have been as interesting as this one?

[pablito]

You weren't showing a healthy pro-town curiosity. Now you are. Asking to hear more from MoS, Quag or Pooky is very pro-town.

[pablito]

A thought that just occured to me, though, is that I think we can deduce that mmod, at the very least, wasn't on viper's

scum team

or he would have snatched up that cop office ASAP.

When did we ever deduce that there were multiple scum groups? I was still under the impression it was just one mega-scum group. Maybe I'm just really lost, but I don't remember this.

[pablito]

mod

a prod on Pooky and Quagmire, please.

[pablito]

Then when Pooky and Quagmire show up - please comment on your new offices and Uraj45.

Also, MMOD please explain your comment yesterday

Wtf did we just lose?

Why did you say that?

And what is everyone's thought on two different scum groups and how many scum remain?

[pablito]

Explain this further...

With 12 people alive, you suddenly thought that you lost the game?

Now if you're pro-town, you would have thought that there was 6 other pro-towners plus yourself vs one scum group of 5, right? That would've been a feasible way to think that "we just lost the game".

Thing is, you just said something about losing without mentioning any numbers, and rationale, just nothing at all.

It's the most curious reaction I've seen, especially considering there was a deadline at the time.

[pablito]

k, that answer works for me.

Now, does anyone suspect anyone knew or are we just going to end up going with Uraj?

[pablito]

MoS that's a reasonable vote if you're looking at yesterday's wagons only.

But is there ANYTHING that anyone has about the game or are we just going to let this lag into deadline again?

[pablito]

Who else wants to vote Uraj then?

[pablito]

I felt Quag was scum, but I'm not no-lynching, so I joined the best bandwagon, but I've had lingering doubts about StD and he was voting SV who I still believe to be relatlively pro-town, so I moved to StD as a compromise vote (I promised to move my vote if someone scummier got a vote as well), I saw there was no momentum, so I went back to the biggest wagon, because I'm not no-lynching.

I think my reasons while I was voting were very clear, so yeah. Is there much more you want to know or are you just asking me these questions as part of a show so you can make yourself look more pro-town?

[pablito]

$1000 for dragon preservation!

I think Quagmire is a good wagon as well, but Uraj just doesn't feel pro-town. And he hasn't really tried to defend himself at the moment.

[pablito]

...anyone care to chime in on who SV should roleblock tonight?

[pablito]

congrats, you've been paying attention. guess who hadn't earlier? take a guess, it shouldn't be too hard.

[pablito]

Close.

Here's the earliest pertinent argument of the day.

I'm wondering if the office switcher is still around. I want my office back.

Uhhhh...SV, who do you think is the office-switcher?

I tried to switch spectrumvoid into Jack Kay's office, but the uber-switch must've overridden it.

Also, I have information regarding stuff that I want to say before the end of the day, but I want to see how a couple of things pan out.

Am I missing something here? I don't get what you guys are saying. SV, who do you think is the current office-switcher? I think there's one out there.

The office switcher, otherwise known as Jack Davis, is now currently an occupied roll, which means that barring another strange event, we won't be getting it back. or any of the currently unoccupied offices for that matter. This is truly unfortunate.

vote pablito because I'm no less convinced today that he's scum than I was yesterday.

o, Uraj, stop trying to answer SV's question. That goes for everyone else.

Also. Uraj, to use some WIFOM, but I did jump to exactly the same vote as Fuldu yesterday. I find that to be a horrible and idiotic move by me. Do you think I'm stupid scum? Because I would hope you didn't.

Actually, this is stupid, why should I beat around the bush. unvote, vote: spectrumvoid

And FOS: Uraj for forgetting and just being scum.

SV, you're either lying or you're lying. Which is it and why?

I'm lying. I'm the new office switcher. I did this in a mini, where I outed scum who tried to claim the role.

Pablito: How did you know?

Based on post 1541, vote: uraj45

Pablito could read the front post and also pablito/armlx had your office before?

(I can confirm that SV as town has caught scum by withholding known info before (although I'm probably thinking of a different mini than you are)).

It occurs to me that I missed a big possibility for a lack of kill last night; Fuldu's office could have been a vig office (which would make his lynch a double victory). Possibly tonight would clear that information up.

Uraj-do you have any thoughts on the Fuldu/SV/STD wagons of yesterday? I just read over them, and noticed you weren't around for the most part.

skips two posts

unvote, vote: uraj45

I just thought that Kay = switcher was just so obvious to SV that there had to be something up. I mean SV did block mathcam when he was switcher right? Or wait, SV blocked mathcam when he was Quinn...

Either way, I did not see the benefit of that gambit if SV is pro-town.

But the fact that SV pretended to forget everything about mathcam, who she pretty much helped initiate a lynch on, was very interesting to me. Thus the vote.

I feel more comfortable with the Uraj vote though because of yesterday's voting patterns.

But nonetheless, SV, I still don't get what was going on.

mystery meat of doom -- Jack Zimmerman, formerly Jack Davis
spectrumvoid (replacing Shamrock) -- Jack Kay, formerly Jack Irving
Open Office: Jack Davis

Excuse me?

I/armlx was Kay, I announced armlx's choices before. Mathcam as Kay claimed office switcher. Why did you forget, and why aren't you paying attention.

Why do'nt you trust that I know what's in Kay's office? Especially because mathcam claimed the same?

Primarily, pablito, because the office of jack kay is listed twice and only found the first instance of it. Under the current setup it's a nightmare to tell who's currently occupying an office of a deceased player.

Regardless, I don't know when people decided they were too good for the LAL law, but I'm just as interested in upholding it now as I was last time. unvote vote spectrumvoid in the interest of the metagame.

For those who don't know what LAL is: http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/LynchAllLiars .

Thok- As I said yesterday, the Fuldu lynch was ok by me, though not my first choice. You might of also I noticed that I was on the spectrumvoid wagon for a time, though pooky's sudden appearance vote made me uncomfortable with it. I basically stand by my thoughts yesterday and don't have much new to add.

It doesen't matter though. My vote won't be changing for the rest of the day. LAL is absolute.

I'll also note that the last time I called someone out in this matter he did, in fact, turn out to be scum. Look it up if you're interested.

And the rest is annoying to read, so I'll let you look that up if you want. It ends at post 1554 on page 63.

[pablito]

Yeah I know, let's go after Quag tomorrow...or we could even do it today, if you guys want.