Kingmaker II-Game Over

[LuckayLuck]

Cool place to jump in. Alright, a little background about me: I will be pretty active. I am new to this site, and I don't know many of you. I'm somewhat savvy with Mafia as a whole, and I've already picked up on which one of you are the more famous ones on this board. :p

I read through day1 AFTER reading up on who got lynched / who got killed, so my analysis had the benefit of knowing that the two townies who died were. I read through day1 VERY carefully, marked down my thoughts on who I thought was mafia/townie. Took me about 2 hours. Day2 I somewhat skimmed, because so far it's been mostly people who I believe to be pretty solid townies posting huge blocks of text and quotes and going at each other. The one thing that stuck out to me mostly on Day2 is the failure of mourning / analysis for poor Thok, who I think was really going on the right track.


Unfortunately, obviously I missed day2's post-crash discussion from what I discern to be about bird mainly. Some people seem to be under fire for attacking bird during this crash period, but I think that attacking bird is 100% justified. I strongly disagree with his analysis of some of the people in this post:
Post 535 That, combined with what everyone else has generally been mentioning post-crash...poor defense, etc, is leading me to

vote bird1111

.

Anyways, I'm an outsider coming in, it should be fun hearing my thoughts in full and maybe getting an unique perspective. Here goes!

I figure starting with the particular opinions of mine that differ from bird's posts is best:

• Mastermind of Sin: bird made a slight accusation against MoS. In my notes, and maybe I only see this because I read all of Day1 through in a row and paid special attention to Mastermind saying "You might want to take notes on my posts," Mastermind of Sin has been making some of the most insightful posts. Some of the meanings can be ambigious if you don't really catch the context, but if one pays attention, it's really quite deep...Mastermind of Sin seems like very very townie with a good head in this game.
  
• MrBuddyLee: bird, like many people, have mentioned that MrBuddyLee is "hard to read." I suppose that's so, this is my first game with him, my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.
  
• Nightson: I loved his entrance into the game so much. It was different than mainstream opinion, and very very correct. It struck my townie chord. Post 323
  
• Pablito: You are THE MAN. I love your style of play. It makes you easily targetted, and you WERE easily targetted, but I'm feeling heavy townie vibes. Very very very strong townie vibes. Someday in the future, those who were on Pablito trains...those who took the easy route...will be analyzed. Someday.
  
• petroleumjelly: I think you did really well as the king. I would not have chosen to execute Rosso Carne, however. (Easy of me to say since that's in the past, but I actually have "the honor" of having Rosso Carne as the inexperienced challenged guy in one of my newbie games ><). I think that your reign as king really was one of a townie.

More to follow about the other guys, and my feelings on peteroleumjelly's big analysis from post 516. I'll address what I agree with him on, and what I disagree with him on.

[LuckayLuck]

For reference, here is petroleumjelly's analysis of all the people in this game. Post 516

It's pure gold, since this is the first king's opinion and, since I am of the camp which believes him to be townie, it makes sense for me to really see what "a strong townie with good analytical skills and the pressure to make the right choice thought of everybody." And, it is fairly recent though obviously some of it is outdated now.

• AmeliaSlay: You made a good analysis of Amelia. I'm now replacing her. I'm also a townie.
  
  
• Bird1111: You didn't have the posts to go off of, you wanted to lynch bird111 for being inactive. Now, his defense / posts are fishy.
  
  
• Cardb0ardb0x: His posts ALSO strike me as a newish-townsperson who was at first considering giving up.
  
  
• ChannelDelibird: I disagree with you slightly - it looks to me like scum attacking an easy target when he attacked cb0x. I am very slightly leaning mafia with this guy, but really, nothing much to incriminate him with.
  
  
• Dead Rikimaru: While he hasn't posted much, the stuff that he has posted makes me think slight townie.
  
  
• Fritzler: This is probably someone famous who plays off of feel and intuition, right? I lean slight townie.
  
  
• Glork: You're now the king, eh? Good choice, because I feel you as really townie.
  
  
• Mastermind of Sin: He is NEVER the right execution. Keep him around.
  
  
• Mert: In my notes, I seem to have marked him as strongly leaning townie, but I have forgotten why I marked him that way. I'm sure I had good reasons to, though. I didn't mark any specific notes of why he is strongly leaning townie because it was his many posts which probably all added together which were all "slightly townie-ish."
  
  
• MrBuddyLee: Covered in above post
  
  
• Nightson: Covered in above post
  
  
• Pablito: Covered in above post
  
  
• Phoebus: THIS is the guy who I cannot read at all.
  
  
• PookytheMagicalBear: I really liked your early posts day1, especially your small rampage on posts 68-72. I marked down slight townie for that. Then as the day went on, I didn't find anything that I really liked. Then everyone started suspecting you a bit. I'm not at the point where I suspect you yet, but I'll keep my eye on you in the future in particular, since you probably have a lot of good insights and/or will be hard to catch as a mafia.
  
  
• spectrumvoid: I read Post 100 and I said to myself "Hey, this looks really townie to me. The indecisive townie tell because I need to spend more time to look this through and think of a wise post because I feel my role as a townie is important tell."
  
  
• Thok: Obviously, Thok's dead now, but his posts were good while he was alive. Unfortunately, they were pretty much the same as PJ as PJ pointed out, so no real new insights.
  
  
• UberTimmy: I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. UberTimmy got away day1 saying NOTHING OF IMPORTANCE whatsoever. In my notes page, I have notes on EVERYBODY whenever they say something of significance. There was nothing here.
  vote UberTimmy
  
  
  
• Vaughn: I've marked down Vaughn as being in most of the major conflicts, but I do not know what to think of this yet.
  
  
• Yosarian2: I have ALSO marked down Yosarian2 as being in most of the major conflicts, and I also don't know what to think of this yet.
  
  
  Whew, okay, I'm done with my introduction.[/url]

[LuckayLuck]

Edits to above: ^

I noted CrashTextDummie's Post 557 as a major point of whether I would think of him as townie or mafia. Right now, I'm neutral because it didn't really strike me either way.

ChannelDelibird is now "StallingChamp" - to reiterate, I think that ChannelDelibird looked like scum attacking an easy target when he attacked cb0x. I am very slightly leaning mafia with this guy, but really, nothing much to incriminate him with.


Okay, really done now.

[LuckayLuck]

bird: earlier, something somebody said which the conspiracy side of me liked was that "you came back with a strong long post because the mafia told you to do so." I might have been too influenced by that comment. Other than that, your analysis on people differ from mine quite a bit, I listed the most prominent differences. But that doesn't mean you're a mafia.

But I don't think that you're the right execution today, so be glad of that one.

[LuckayLuck]

Of your list of 3, Glork, I really don't feel like executing Yosarian2.
To a lesser extent, I don't feel like executing MBL.

I don't want to lynch them because Yosarian2 is reading "somewhat townie" and MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read of them by displaying all posts from username. I will not expand on my reasoning on this currently because if I let them continue performing this certain mystical voodoo type townie tell tomorrow, I will be a lot more certain. I'll expand if for one person, or for both people if you directly order me to, though.

Oh, and also - MBL, you accused me of liking people who post with a more analytical and expository style. YES, I give them brownie points for this, but I don't auto-townie these people. In fact, Pooky is one of the people who have been posting in this style, but sadly he hasn't managed to hit my townie tell feel yet.

One final note: I have an obsession with townie tells. My gameplan is not to support lynches because I believe people to be mafia, but rather, I will support lynches because I believe them to lack townie tells. There is a minor difference there. This is just my style of play. Similarly, if somebody is on the execution block who has hit my townie tell button, I will defend them until their head is chopped off, no matter how controversial it may be.

[LuckayLuck]

[*]MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

Change of opinion because I looked up the people on the execution list's show all posts, where I didn't yet when I first jumped in. And...going with the flow, wtf? I just defended two people who the king has on the execution list.

Speaking of that, when I use the show all posts function, I can only see the first page of all the person's posts. How can I see the next page? (clicking next page or "2" leads me to the main thread and not of the person's posts)

[LuckayLuck]

Hi luckayluck. I'll make my own summary of your posts to make it clear.

People leaning on the side of town:
MoS, MBL, Nightson, Pablito, PJ, box, dead rikimaru, fritzler, glork, mert, SV,

People leaning on side of scum:
bird, stallingchamp, uber

?
Pooky, Vaughn, Yos, CTD

You find a very large number of people pro-town. I'm not saying I disagree with any specific person on your list, but a lot of how what you use to judge people on is based on your feelings. I agree with MBL on that you generally think people who post analytically are pro-town. But thanks for jumping in so quickly.

I don't understand this line: bird1111: You didn't have the posts to go of... fishy. I know you find bird scummy because you voted for him, but I'm not sure why.

I -do- find a large portion of people pro-town at the moment. "Neutral / ???" is my default view, after about 5 posts or after an extremely profound / goodpost, I start moving people away from neutral. If I don't know what to think, or if I see both a townie tell and a scum tell, I might stick them at "Neutral / ???"

The thing to remember though, are that I am only currently willing to argue strongly / defend the following people:


MoS
MBL
Nightson
Pablito
petroleumjelly
Glork


There MAY be others that I am actually willing to argue strongly and defend if they reach the chopping block, once I view all their previous posts. I usually would have a better feel for people by now, but I'm coming in 2 months late. I'm not going to yet methodically go through everybody's posts, I'll go for the key people for now.



oh, and I'm not sure why you're confused by my bird11111 vote. I explained it already.

[LuckayLuck]

You've [MBL] just jumped to the top of my list, buddy. Congratulations.

Do you have some sort of execution warning plan planned out? I intend to defend MBL before you execute him, but as late as possible ideally.

[LuckayLuck]

lol...
before I do that, can I hear about the "nut-kicking theory"? It's what I missed out on during the crash...

[LuckayLuck]

Disclaimer: I don't know how MBL has played previously. I am comparing my thoughts this entire game as if everybody were generic people. I will describe some things that I personally view as townie-ish.

I don't think that MBL is scum because:

1) Even just glancing glancing at MBL's previous votes, he's been all over the place. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it in the sense that he starts off with a list, later he UNVOTES ALL, goes for a new guy, and then he ends up going for others after that. And it's not even one of "following the trend." This is generally townie. If his playstyle as a townie is often revolutionary independent, this furthers the read that he is a townie.

2) This probably resonates most to me since I was directly in the line of fire of MBL.

[*]MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

Why is he accusing me, someone who I said is reading slight townie at that time (and now I think of him as moderate townie)? You COULD say this is a WIFOM argument, but generally, suspecting the guy who plans on defending you is strangely townie. I mean, he could try to get on my good side if he was mafia...

MBL's lines of attack and interaction lead me to believe that he is moderately townie.

[LuckayLuck]

2) I don't think "attacking someone who thinks you're pro-town" is a townie tell at all. [...] (heck... me/Pablito as well, off the top of my head). It occurs too often to call it a legitimate tell, IMHO.

The you/Pablito example is realllly good. I thought of you as slightly more likely as townie at that one, Pablito I thought of townie for some other reasons, that's why earlier I claimed that you're both townies.

MBL is a townie too!

It does occur too often to call it a legitimate tell, but...certain...context? timing? I'm not quite sure how to explain it yet, but under certain conditions, like you/pablito and MBL/me I think you and MBL are, at the very least, higher-than-average-townie because of those specific interactions.

[LuckayLuck]

Glork, so you're executing someone today, eh? Okay.
You said that you wouldn't announce who it was until you did it, but you've already sort of "execution tell'd" away two of the people. Which means that I can say the following thing: I'll think that you made a good choice if you don't execute pablito.

[LuckayLuck]

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

[LuckayLuck]

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

Out of all these posts, this little section is the most important part. We need everyone to comment on these two questions, they're the key to finding things out. At the moment, due to limited time, I'm going to give a brief answer to part of question #1 - this should also answer some random questions that I've noticed directed towards me. I will also answer those questions in time.

Let me start off with a fun exercise: here are the people that I would

NOT

have on the LOE today (key word is today). Also: I think that at most, there are 2 scum in this list. Maybe 1. I'd pat myself on the back for genius if I managed to get away with 0 scum in this list.

cardb0ardb0x
CrashTextDummie
Dead Rikimaru
Glork
LuckayLuck
Mastermind of Sin
MrBuddyLee
Nightson
Pablito
Petroleumjelly
Yosarian2
Zindaras


These are the people who I would consider executing - which is determined not because I think they are scummy, but because I think they lack townie qualities.

bird1111
Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)
Fritzler
Mert
Phoebus
PookyTheMagicalBear
spectrumvoid
StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)
Twomz
UberTimmy

If I were the king, I'd narrow the above list even more, but at the moment, these are the people that I have not received a decent enough townie vibe from.

Glork has 3 of 4 people that I do NOT want executed today on his LOE. That's obviously not a very matching philosophy. Obviously, I'm forced to choose PookyTheMagicalBear to be executed from his list because the other 3 I don't want executed today.

I expect this post to be somewhat controversial, I'll come back and explain certain choices that I've seen a lot of talk over...I'll aim to be able to do it later tonight, but it may be tomorrow. Pretty busy today.

[LuckayLuck]

Before I go, one more quickly explanation behind this post:

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

It was composed rather quickly because I thought rightly that execution time was coming soon, and I don't want MBL executed (I don't think Glork will actually execute him, though.) Perhaps what I really posted it for, however, is that the Glork vs MBL huge posts are both townies wasting their energy on attacking each other rather than joining efforts to find scum. I think that you guys should shake hands and try to think of each other as masons for the rest of this day2. It will, at the very least, be a good exercise.

[LuckayLuck]

Random note to the kingmaker:

1. I do not expect to be elected king within the next 3 days. This note is just in case.
2. If I am made the king within the next 3 days, I will be doing something very radical and controversial. This radical / controversial thing will not involve a quick execution. It will include some parts dictatorship, some parts democracy. I believe it will be the best way to proceed, but to others, it will seem like a crazy way to proceed. Maybe to some, it will be an ingenius way to proceed. I don't know.


Addressing petroleumjelly:

LuckayLuck, your list is so frighteningly in-line with my thoughts this game, I almost want to FoS you for good measure. The only points of disagreement I have with this list are Dead Rikimaru, Nightson, and to a lesser extent, CrashTextDummie (all three of whom are running more middle of the pack, instead of in the ‘town’ area). I would also move Mert, Fritzler, and Twomz out of the ‘consider for execution’ list. Twomz and Fritz in particular are players you will probably get more used to as your mafia career expands.

My execution list that you quoted is simply those not on my townie list. Yes, some of them are "I'm not sure / iffy / neutral" at the moment, but the good(?) thing about Kingmaker is that I really don't have to delve deep into any of them unless they are on the execution list or asked to do so etc. I believe strongly in my townie list.

[LuckayLuck]

Move Phoebus to the list of people that I specifically do NOT want executed.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote All

Vote specifically to execute: Mert

[LuckayLuck]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

Truth
I tend to start adjusting after I actually get a feel for everybody. (Need to see more of Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz, and UberTimmy). I have no doubt that some mafia lie in my townie list, but I strongly doubt they are in the 9.5 and moderately doubt they are in the 9 list.

All I can really say is that you can't execute Pooky because he's just inactive (also in several other games, must have suddenly had something come up). And the MBL/Yos/Zind execution list make me twitch. I think it needs a radical change.

At this moment in time, if there was an execution, I would want it to be Mert. But while this day is dragging out, I still think it's super-important to have those "inactives" (or their replacements) post more.

[LuckayLuck]

I like Pooky now too!

[LuckayLuck]

The only acceptable execution I see on the LOE is Mert.

[LuckayLuck]

Yeah, I'm still looking at Pooks and Yos as my top two executees.


They'd better start convincing me otherwise.

Obviously, I look incredibly scummy if I turn out to be wrong here, but I'm willing to stick up for these two. I can give my explanation of Pooky in one line: he's been afk and I am inconclusive about him, and he came back with an excellent post. My explanation of Yos is a bit more complex and I'm a little busy with finals at the moment, but if you really feel like executing Yos, you must hear me out.

Mert is the only execution I like of this list.
The only only execution that I even view as reasonable, in fact. And yes, it's a pity that he's not around to defend himself, but I think his day1 actions are enough to execute him.

[LuckayLuck]

I can see that you're one of those people who can be swayed by big, long, analytic posts.

They're the easiest people to read the souls of, since they have so much of a story to keep straight and generally are the type to gradually shift an opinion. Easy to pick up on anything suspicious from them, I argue, so yes, to some extent, big, long, analytic posts hold sway to me.

Though I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised by Pooky's sudden spurt of participation, I still think that he's probably scum.

[...]

Pooky, if you're still around, I have to ask: Why the sudden inpsiration? Why have you decided, out of nowhere and on the brink of execution, to suddenly do an entire re-read and post thoughts on everybody? What does this do to the nutkicking theory about Bird1111, who essentially did the same thing?

[...]

Pooky goes basically AWOL while under the threat of execution then suddenly decides to post thoughts on everyone in the game. Really, how different is Pooky from Bird?

I don't know what caused him to leave, but since I was in a couple games with him in other places, as well as browsing randomly games sometimes, I noticed Pooky disappeared from all games simultaneously. So Pooky is definitely the wrong move here with such a short deadline.

Could you sum up in exactly three sentences why you think that Mert is scum?

I'll get that to you later, boss. Possibly in one or two days, due to finals. Call it "Luck-dar."

[LuckayLuck]

Sneak preview of my attack on Mert / defense of Pooky+Yos, though:
it's going to be nearly entirely WIFOM / gut. But what the hell do you expect in this game?

Now, in another game, I just received worde that PJ made the folowing statement...

PJ has an excellent post somewhere about how everything in mafia is WIFOM anyway...

I agree wholeheartedly, and I'll show you why the wine in front of Mert is mafia and the wine in front of Pooky+Yos is villager. It may be convoluted, it may be the sole opinion and reason of anybody here, but I seeeee it.

Anyways, to be continued...

[LuckayLuck]

Could you sum up in exactly three sentences why you think that Mert is scum?

I find that it's easier to sum up why someone is NOT scum. Your LOE is currently Pooky/Yos/Mert, so I'll say why Pooky and Yos aren't scum.

for Pooky, I'm not sure, as he's been relatively inactive - but he's back(?) now and came back with a good post. So you can't execute him.

Yos in three sentences:
Several of the people I consider very very townie argue specifically against a Yos execution. You can say that this is a slippery slope, but I am willing to go down this path. Also, Yos's arguments while on your LOE while being one of your top suspects don't quite make sense as scum: he pushes for Twomz and Phoebus, two people that aren't/weren't even on the execution list, and his defense style is just one that is townie.


Mert in three sentences:
Similarly, a lot of people I consider very very townie argue specifically for a Mert execution. Reading his posts, in day1, Mert did not accuse anyone of scummy behavior but rather for "unhelpfulness" - which is something I consider scummy. In day2, he similarly conveniently chose two easy picks: Twomz and Pooky.



Down with Mert!

[LuckayLuck]

Since that's the second time someone's reference me as king, let me just clarify the meaning of this post.

Random note to the kingmaker:

1. I do not expect to be elected king within the next 3 days. This note is just in case.
2. If I am made the king within the next 3 days, I will be doing something very radical and controversial. This radical / controversial thing will not involve a quick execution. It will include some parts dictatorship, some parts democracy. I believe it will be the best way to proceed, but to others, it will seem like a crazy way to proceed. Maybe to some, it will be an ingenius way to proceed. I don't know.

It's not lobbying, it's fact-stating. If anything, this is a cry to "not make me king unless you want something strange to happen."

I think Luckay's analysis relies too much on the opinions he's created on people he considers townie,

My playstyle is a double-edged sword. Yes, I -do- rely heavily on the opinions of those I've considered townie, yes this -could- bite me later hard, and yes, it allows me quite a lot of flexibility if I'm scum. It ends up being good if I'm either townie or scum because as townie, I feel that I've pinned down certain people as townie PARTLY because of their argument against someone, which then I sort of absorb as my own. And whenever I'm scum, this is pretty good camoflauge. As townie, I have the additional "my own check" to see if I really think the people I believe are townie are actually atttacking possible scum. I believe this is true. I would and usually do add my independent thoughts on my targets (Mert) if I had any, but based on his meager posting, I have listed somewhat of a unique reason already...at least as unique as one can get given that amount of posts.

[LuckayLuck]

Between Pooky and Yos, I prefer Yos.

[LuckayLuck]

vote Yos

I'm not doing this because I like it at all, I'm doing it because executing Pooky is worse.

[LuckayLuck]

That's my case if anything. It's mostly that

[LuckayLuck's]

reliance on "pro-town players" is just too scummy right now. I've seen it in other games though, so I don't know just yet.

And I'm not really feeling comfortable having a stalker right now

Sorry, Pablito. Style. This is neither a scum or townie move for me.
In a game where I would start in (not replace into) I would definitely have something a bit more than going into "complete agreement/reliance" mode: I tried with my first post in this game; however, I feel a little out of it because a lot of my own contribution onto others is that I tend to look at flow and I missed the entirity of day1 which is actually a pretty key day for me. One thing that I'll be doing is sort of piecing together those who I feel as really townieish's ideas and seeing if I can create some synergy there, develop my own ideas as well.

That will come later.


One big comment: nobody has directly quoted this passage and pointed and yelled scum yet (which I'm sure it could be interpreted as, I took a wishy washy path and came up with the wrong conclusion, could be a scum defense)

vote Yos

I'm not doing this because I like it at all, I'm doing it because executing Pooky is worse.

so I'll just get out of that way and FoS myself for doing that

[LuckayLuck]

I'm not even going to hide it: I'm going to try to get on Glork's good side, because Glork is likely a townie. (Duhhhh, yes, he could have executed a scum partner, but I'm going to put that aside for now)

So, here's a direct reponse to Glork:

---> LuckayLuck defends MoS in Post 688, saying that MoS has made some of the most insightful posts. I care to challenge this now. Mostly what MoS has done is made unfounded and unreasoned accusations or defenses of players and defended his "I won't vote" stance basically by saying "that's the playstyle I am adopting." I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why.

A brief summary is that MoS saw the exact same things as I did (no joke, for serious) during my first read through. I would mark something, then I would see MoS post the exact same thing I wrote down. It sort of became creepy. But here is the list of things that I agree with MoS on:

Post 201: PJ pro-town
Post 208: Cardboardbox is pro-town
Post 230: :goodposting: to Glork
Post 264: IGMEOY Glork
Post 300: Agrees with Glork again
Post 324: Phoebus not scum "yet"
Post 416: Prefers Bird execution to Phoebus execution. In the next post (417), he also brings up Thok, Timmy, Yosarian, saying "at least" one of them is scum.
Post 421: Calls out Twomz for voting lots of people without having any votes on him.
Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
Post 439: MoS once again defends Phoebus. Interestingly enough, he says "even Thok says Phoebus isn't scum"... despite the fact that he had just voiced his suspicions of Thok a mere 20 posts ago.
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.
Post 489: Voices against Phoebus execution again.

Okay, so I just quoted the entire thing (minus one point which I edited out). That's a pretty big statement on my part. I agreed with MoS on all of this, at the point in time where he voices these opinions. I had the same ones.

---Enter Day Two---

Post 550: Bird good execution "a day or two from now." Clarify, please, MoS.

I will clarify for MoS (well, maybe not, but this is what I thought): At the certain point in time, I thought Bird could definitely be a scum. I wanted Bird to either further implicate himself, or further implicate his scum buddies, which is why MoS is insightful here (is this what you thought too, MoS?)

[LuckayLuck]

I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why.

sorry, I wanted to get this out of the way, it was one of the major points of why I found MoS "insightful."

okay okay, MoS, take it away!

[LuckayLuck]

My three votes:

Vote: Mert

Vote: StallingChamp

Vote: Ubertimmy

I'm finding it extremely difficult to actually find people to "want" to lynch as much as having certain people I don't want to lynch and leading to a process of elimination to a gruop of people who I want to lynch. Those three basically are part of that group.

[LuckayLuck]

You need to get more aggressive, LL. Process of elimination doesn't generally work as well as I think you think it does.


(I hope the above sentence made sense. It makes sense when I read it, but it's 2 AM and I've been reading and writing about philosophy for a good four hours.)

My targets are lame. I admit it! I'll leave the aggression to you, mason-buddy!
I'll just keep defending people like MBL.

I'm not really "in" the game just yet since I missed the first day and am not getting the flow quite yet though after today I should be caught up along with my day2 experience. I'm going to wait until the consensus list gets down to around 5 people before I read them, otherwise my mind would get destroyed

[LuckayLuck]

To LuckayLuck and Pablito:
Could you please re-state or summarize why you still feel Mert is scummy?

Thanks for the prod, I had missed this question. (You'll ask, how could I miss a question that had been repeated and talked about so often? Well...yeah, I haven't been keeping up with this thread much. Very lame. Sorry.)

It turns out that I'm sort of...lazy, or maybe unsure is a better way of putting it. I enjoy pablito / pj / glork's train of thought - all three of theirs. (and, dead rikamarus' also...convenient, you'll say, since he's the king. But when I first came into the game I considered dead rikamaru a townie). Glork, I could easily take pablito or pj's thoughts on mert if they had any negative feelings about him, by searching the archives, and spinning it off as my own.

But I won't because that's what I would do, I'll just say it straight out.
There are quite a lot of people who have convinced me of their pro-villagerness, and yeah, I "piggyback" which is terrible, but turns out to be the most effective thing I can do at the moment due to time. I'd be disgusted with my playstyle if I was someone else, but blah.

I'm pretty much stating my intention to proxy my opinion alongside those who I consider townie. (terrible. I could get replaced also) Whatever pablito posts next as to why Mert is scummy is what I will believe.

Sorry. Not the answer you were looking for, but this is as straight as I can give it.

[LuckayLuck]

I liked your playstyle at first for it's originality (I still get a certain enjoyment from reading your posts), but admitting that your votes are weak (and even weaker in that you won't be getting any sort of reaction from them), then buddying up to Glork, while finishing up that you will spend your time defending people (without mentioning your defense of Pooky, but only your defense of MBL) all in three lines has forced an eyebrow lifting. Please explain.

Okay, I felt like I needed another post on this.
Normally, my playstyle would be seriously considering the opinions of those who I considered pro-town, trying to connect them together (in this case, it would mainly be connecting PJ - Glork - Pablito as three of my most memorable townies). Then, I'd rehash adding my own input.

Due to lack of time, I have been skipping the latter steps and basically just been proxying my opinion to these people, who I trust to be townies.

[LuckayLuck]

e

^ All right, but you would please explain this, then:

Post 1246.

1.) If you claim to be "piggybacking", why you are actually going after and voting people who have been replaced or needed replaced?

At the time of your post, two of the people you voted had already been replaced, and the third needed replacement (and has in fact been replaced).

2.) Explain how that is consistent with your claimed playstyle[/quote]

I picked three people who I would not piggyback on.

3.) Explain how you expected your votes to do anything while sitting on people who needed replacement or were, in fact, already replaced

My votes were throwaway, I didn't expect them to really "matter." In fact:

unvote all

Proxy opinion to PJ + Glork + Pablito combo.
Strange that all three share no same target. I'll pick the one I like best from each of them. Don't put too much stock in my choice, these match my outdated beliefs from a while ago.

Vote: Mert, Spectrumvoid, Yosarian

(I have briefly glanced over the reasons that Pablito / PJ / Glork have given for voting for these people. For the moment, you can assume that I agree completely unless otherwise stated with these opinions, and I take responsibility if they are incorrect.)
Proxy Mert vote, as well as reasons to vote Mert to Pablito
Proxy Spectrumvoid vote, as well as reasons to vote Spectrumvoid to PJ
Proxy Yosarian vote, RELUCTANTLY, from Glork's list which I must say I don't like very much. Two months ago(?) I stated that I like MoS and nightson both. I have not had the opportunity to re-evaluate if I still like them yet so my belief here is actually very dangerous since I really don't have much against Yos especially after the Pooky-Yos thing which I only briefly skimmed over. But still, I trust Glork a great deal. So I go with Yos.

4.) Explain how you seemed to have missed the replacements (even if you looked at the first post and picked who you thought were the people who posted the least, you would have noticed the replacements' names next to those players).

I've been pretty inattentive.

[LuckayLuck]

• I'm NOT a mason with the people I am following. (Figure of speech, indicating trust)
  
• Masons don't exist in this game.
  
• I'm still happy with my "masons" (Pablito, Glork, and PJ). Especially Pablito. Check out this bit:

  LL- For reasons stated by various others throughout the thread.

  
  DOS, you realize that LL is guilty of proxying his votes and reasons to others and that's oner eason why he's being voted. Therefore if you're "proxying" the reasons for suspecting LL, it's a bit of a hypocritical move.

  That's freaking hot.
  
• I am relatively inactive in this game, in comparison to other games, BECAUSE it is such a huge game. Some people need to simply stand behind the opinions of those who one agrees with, when one believes strongly that they are townie. Consolidate opinions. If I say nothing in this game, it means "I am in complete agreement with what has been said (by pablito, glork, and pj)" which means my silence is actually something of substance. Also, if I actually speak up in contrast, then something has been so wrong that I need to speak up.

[LuckayLuck]

a "Dead" King, har har har, do you get it guys?

[LuckayLuck]

Smashy: execute Der Hammer.

they're on both Glork's and PJ's list. Therefore you can't really go wrong. Plus I don't think anybody will miss him.

[LuckayLuck]

LL, isn't it a bit ironic that there are actually two people who are on both Glork's and PJ's lists? Did you forget that you're the other person aside from Der Hammer?

Thus - explain why you singled out Der Hammer aside from the sole reason that he appears on two peoples' lists.

I was actually debating this with myself for a long time.
"Should I publicly mention that I truly will be pretty much following Glork/PJ/Pablito's opinions with no real effort on my part in this game since I really am lost?"
well, I just did mention it so I guess this won out.

I also debated with myself: "should I publicly mention that I don't really care so much if I get lynched?" And I decided that I do care, if I'm up for lynch then fine, I'll put up a weak fight. I have no suspicions other than Glork/PJ/Pablito's. I don't have any defense to any scum accusations. I'm batting for the fences. If it ends up that Der Hammer is scum, then my message of wanton apathy for what happens to Der Hammer ("execute Der Hammer") and if he happens to be scum, then BAM, I'm set, I can just ride along.

I usually really care about not getting lynched / executed in this case when I am town, but...well...meh, this day sorta killed me. Emotionally. It may end up killing me literally too. Meh.

To re-iterate, this may perhaps be my sole contribution - though it's an important one:
There are a lot of good lynches out there, the only really bad ones are the following-

Pablito
Petroleumjelly
Glork
Smashy (because Dead Rikamaru was very villager)

and yeah, that's pretty much what I'll be rolling with
If faced with a LOE, my defense will be "I'm not scum, if I appear off my townie game, it's beause I'm semi-apathetic"
If faced with the question with who my suspicions are, I will glance at my townie list's suspicions and take them straight off of there
You know my townie list.


Anyways, execute Der Hammer! Kapow! Or me! At the very least executing me gives you a confirmed townie's opinion that he really believed that pablito/pj/glork/smashy were townies.

Hell, I even had the following plan brewing:

alternate Glork king & pablito king

but, that's really not ideal. The king position should be spread out to as many people as possible, nearly never repeating. The reasoning behind this is that the king can be heavily scrutinized and that king's action is perhaps the best indicator of whether a player is scum or townie.

Anyyyhoooo that's my schpiel
yeah, I'm sad that 2 of pablito/pj/glork think I may be scum, but that's life. I'll roll with it, hopefully slide under the radar, and not get executed. There's a lot of things that you can quote from this post which sound scummy, such as:

hopefully slide under the radar

but really, don't try, since this is a post basically explaining my position / feelings, that's all


neways
my official position is: execute der hammer, hope for the hail mary that he is in fact scum, get cleared, get beaten/stabbed by evils, exit stage right.

[LuckayLuck]

Thus - explain why you singled out Der Hammer aside from the sole reason that he appears on two peoples' lists.

lol...I just realized that I never really explained it and seriously digressed.

I am singling out Der Hammer for the sole reason that he appears on two peoples' lists, because I trust these two people very much.

[LuckayLuck]

LL: Why do you think PJ is pro-town? Why do you think Smashy/DR is very villager?

I think PJ is pro-town because, in one simple phrase: his reign as a king was very town-like. Seriously, I'm not going to be able to do much more than that, I could quote huge tomes of text, and comment "this is villagery, this is villagery" but it's pure feel.

I think Smashy/DR is very villager because:

initially, I posted:

Dead Rikimaru: While he hasn't posted much, the stuff that he has posted makes me think slight townie.

this was due to feel of posts such as this:

Looks like pablito is trying too hard to look scummy, while Glork looks more and more annoyed.
Is this an extreme distancing technique?

where he looked like a townie really digging into certain people who weren't even suspicious at the time.

however, now, I have a much better argument:
do you seriously think Dead Rikamaru, scum, compiles that CORRECT summary of each player in the game, then fails to even make an LOE or execute anyone? Seriously guys, Dead Rikamaru/Smashy is someone I trust perhaps more than the pablito/pj/glork crowd. It's probably something like...

Trust Smashy > Trust Glork > Trust Pablito > Trust PJ

[LuckayLuck]

making it DR/Smashy and LL (with PJ at a lesser third spot for now)

when a top three list is this bad, it usually means townie

[LuckayLuck]

EXECUTE ME, BABY!!
If I appear townie, then you know for a fact that I strongly legitly believed that pablito, glork, and petroleumjelly are townies.
Do it
You know you want to

[LuckayLuck]

I fear that's a resignation post

I never resign as a mafia
that wasn't a resignation post either, it's a post of reality and clarity

just saying...if I happen to be executed today, please don't execute any of pablito/glork/pj/smashy for the next 3 days, it's the wish of a confirmed townie after I die

Also, why bother to be in the game if you're going to be so apathetic about it?

you're right. I'm apathetic. As much as I want to win, and yeah, I play all mafia games to win...my actions in this game haven't been done with that intention, because I'm apathetic. Sorry. It's just that...I see myself playing this game continuing on for another year and I want to cry that's the honest answer

you won't be doing the best move possible by executing me because I'm a townie, but I will self-admit that I am an apathetic townie and I don't have the heart to get a replacement since that would be cruel, I feel. It's extremely likely that I will continue to be apathetic, so I will probably have to be executed at one point or another, so...might as well do it now. I feel terrible for not defending myself as a townie like this, but, meh

[LuckayLuck]

I'll try to read your posts collectively soon and decide whether or not I think you've been apathetic as you've claimed to be, since I had personally thought you were one of the more "excited" players in the game up until this point.

thanks mate
I was "excited" near the beginning-ish, I think I fell into the valley of despair somewhere when I realized that I'm not fit to replace in this game :p I mean, I could do it, but I missed 3-ish months of drama, it definitely threw me off. I've been following the 2/3/4 people I've thought most of as townie mostly throughout.

the last thing I want to do is be thought of as a martyr, I'm a terrible townie in this game and deserve to be executed. I really have no way to clear myself other than committing myself to following "those 4" - when they come up as townie, I might be slightly more clear, and when I follow them correctly onto scum without hesitation I might be slightly more clear, but it's gonna be too hard to prove myself as a townie long term probably. So hit me if you want!

[LuckayLuck]

Have 3 games on this site so far: 2 Townie, 1 Scum (Godfather)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4365 - Godfather

1.) Did SV lose "townie tells" after you had made that particular post? If so, when did this happen, and why didn't you mention it up until your SV vote? Was this particular vote based solely on the fact that I myself suspect SV?

To be honest, I may have "forgotten" that I had put a townie tell on SV when I made that particular post. I probably thought that I didn't have any tell on SV and I was just following you.

I'll keep my question hypothetical, though.

Suppose you think X, Y, and Z are "strong townie". But then X and Y turn around and suspect Z. Does this in turn make you vote Z? Or do your "townie tells" still hold up? Or is this dealth with on a case-by-case basis?

case-by-case, but if I think it's a STRONG townie, I don't vote Z, I defend Z, I tell X and Y to work together with Z because Z is a townie

[LuckayLuck]

LL, why are you more suspicious of Yos? You explained somewhat why SV went from very townie to getting your vote, but so did Yos. Why did that happen?

Well, here's my vote on Yos:

Proxy Yosarian vote, RELUCTANTLY, from Glork's list which I must say I don't like very much. Two months ago(?) I stated that I like MoS and nightson both. I have not had the opportunity to re-evaluate if I still like them yet so my belief here is actually very dangerous since I really don't have much against Yos especially after the Pooky-Yos thing which I only briefly skimmed over. But still, I trust Glork a great deal. So I go with Yos.

what I'm trying to say is that I didn't like PJ's list at all, but the best of the bunch was Yos. Looks like he has a better list now.

Unvote Yosarian

Vote Der Hammer

[LuckayLuck]

LL: The interesting question, though, is why did you decide you would rather have me lynched rather then pooky?

You had given some logical arguments about why you thought I was town; your arguments for why you thought Pooky was town was basically "he came back and made one post I liked". Care to clarify why, exactally, you thought I was a better lynch then Pooky, if those were your two possible choices?

I hated both of Glork's candidates, but I less-hated Pooky because I didn't believe that he had posted enough to come to a conclusion to, one day when I was bored I skimmed over a thread because townies had lynched scum like 3 in a row and Pooky was the gangleader of that in, and Pooky's one post coming back was townie-ish. Anyways, Glork apparently knew Pooky more, and me missing the first day may // the coincidence of me reading the thread pooky was owning in // my own townie tell being wrong or bias could have been what led me to make a "wrong" choice that pooky was a worse lynch.

[LuckayLuck]

less-hated you* (Yos) I should have said, typo

[LuckayLuck]

less-hated you* (Yos) I should have said, typo

ok, my typo wasn't a typo
my fix is a typo

Correction: I liked a Yos lynch more than a Pooky lynch. lfjsdhgl.