Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Zindaras]

What? I'm in this game? I haven't even received a role PM!

Well, if Thok gets me my PM, I'll try to catch up on this game in the afternoon.

[Zindaras]

Well, I have my role PM now and I'll try to catch up as soon as I'm not covered under a large pile of homework.

*goes back to work*

[Zindaras]

Glork, do you have any assignments for me while I reread the thread?

[Zindaras]

Not really. I'd actually prefer if you just read over everything and give your overall opinions on whatever comes to mind.

If you could jot down some things in Notepad as you read and make a "stream-of-consciousness post" with most/all of your thoughts as you go, I think that'd be great.

Okay. I'm starting my reading right now.

[Zindaras]

Doing my reread, I've amassed 6 pages of Word document so far (though 4 pages of that are quotes), and I'm at page 8 in thread.

[Zindaras]

I'm at Page 19 right now, jumping out from my notes so far are Yosarian2 and Vaughn (now Der Hammer). I think they're quite scummy so far.

Have fun discussing this while I'm off. My reread will continue in the evening.

[Zindaras]

I'll expand on it later, I'm just interested to see how people react to them and I'll expand on them later.

[Zindaras]

I'd like to hear Glork's opinions on Yos and Der Hammer.

[Zindaras]

Reread has been finished. I've amassed 9 pages of Word file with just notes on what has happened, so there'll be a big post coming up soon.

[Zindaras]

Some posts that jumped out to me:

Restating my suspicions for the King's viewing pleasure:

Vote: PJ

, for lynching Rosso on extremely short notice and without giving him any time to defend himself. PJ defended himself against this accusation, but not to my satisfaction. I find it suspicious that PJ of all people waited for the very last second of the deadline to compose his final List of Execution (and the first one to mention Rosso at all) even if real life matters claimed most of his free time. Given his status as a player and his position as king yesterday, I would have expected him to take extra care to play as good as possible, but he didn't. In fact, the way he played it out (waiting for the deadline to hit in order to execute a townie "under pressure") is what I imagine to be a very viable strategy for a scum king.

Vote: StallingChamp

, for his one post of substance, which was unfortunately lost to the crash. In it, he complimented PJ on a good decision, while admitting a bit later that he has no idea why exactly Rosso was under so much scrutiny. Due to the circumstances, I can't prove that he really said that, but I suggest at least keeping an eye on him.

Vote: Twomz

. He was one of the people most blatantly hopping on the birdwagon, but that's not his only crime. Asked by me if he actually had any reason to vote for me apart from Fritzler demanding it, he used an especially insulting logical fallacy on me: Burden of Proof. Again, this has been lost in the crash, but I'm sure King Glork remembers it, seeing as he was the first to call the fallacy.

Vote: ubertimmy

, for extreme lurking.

I think that's it.

This voting seems odd.

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

...that's pretty much how I feel.

To reiterate my stance: I don't know if I think Bird is scum or not (though I'm leaning towards thinking no, at this point). What I do think is that, regardless of Bird's alignment, his behavior and the manner in which the wagon sprouted up (people going "yeah, I like that theory! VOTE: BIRD!") is so chic for scum to jump on. Bus the buddy or go for the momentum-wagon. Pooky and Twomz exemplified this attitude the most, so they're on my list.

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on. Even more alarming to me was the fact that he presented the theory, defended its plausability, and said he was hoveing around 60% sure that Bird was a "nut-kicked" scumbag, but

never actually put a vote on Bird.

The siresns are so loud and ringing, I can hear them in my sleep. Even *NOW* after checking in, MBL votes for Timmy, Fritzler, and "everybody who is lurking" but still hasn't voiced his official support for a Birdlynch. Does

ANYBODY

else see this as more-than-slightly-odd?

I'm going to

Vote: Pooky, Twomz, MBL

and try to give the game a good re-read in the near future.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught up on MBL.

On MBL and Glork: I'm not getting MBL's case on Glork at all. It's ridiculous to expect a vote to be as important as it is in an ordinary game. However, votes are still important because they confirm a person's stand on someone. Votes should also preferably come with some kind of explanation. Note the case on Phoebus early yesterday, where he voted without explaining. With that said, I don't think MBL is right to assume that Glork sees only votes. I don't think I have a long playing history with Glork, but from some of his other games, I read him as a pretty analytical player. Also, there's no evidence to prove MBL's accusation in this game. I also think MBL is wrong to not take note of discrepancies, it could be a scum slip.

On Pooky: Hm... I thought it was obvious exactly what game Pooky was talking about. This IS the game we're playing after all.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

You seemed awfully wishy-washy in this post. Saying that you thought he didn't look good, but couldn't commit to such an inkling (even rejecting your own feelings by saying "I'm not sure if it's a scumtell") feels very uncharacteristic of you.

I think you misrepresented Yos here. He said
A: he can't get a good read on ph on the bandwagoning issue, because he's not sure if his bandwagoning is a scumtell.
C: he thinks phoebus not contributing to this game is 'more suspicious'.

This explains pretty clearly what Yos thinks of Phoebus, and why. I don't see how this makes him wishy-washy. And there's nothing wrong with not having a 100% confirmed stand on someone. (I got this from the 'not commiting' point.) For example, just look at what some people, myself included, think of bird and MBL's accusation (was it MBL?), especially the uncertainty involvled.

Take note of my sig addition.

For the blatant misreprentation,

vote: Glork

I know this is Kingmaker, but this makes it clear where I stand.

I think I'm the only one to have noticed this turnaround. I found it to be suspicious.

Rather odd to get prodded when you thought you were replaced.

Stupid crash.

And

King

Glork requested my presence? Pfft. I don't listen to

Peasant

Glork.

Anyway...I'll be talking to the mod about what he wants.

It was rather odd to get prodded when you thought you hadn't replaced, too.

Cool place to jump in. Alright, a little background about me: I will be pretty active. I am new to this site, and I don't know many of you. I'm somewhat savvy with Mafia as a whole, and I've already picked up on which one of you are the more famous ones on this board. :p

I read through day1 AFTER reading up on who got lynched / who got killed, so my analysis had the benefit of knowing that the two townies who died were. I read through day1 VERY carefully, marked down my thoughts on who I thought was mafia/townie. Took me about 2 hours. Day2 I somewhat skimmed, because so far it's been mostly people who I believe to be pretty solid townies posting huge blocks of text and quotes and going at each other. The one thing that stuck out to me mostly on Day2 is the failure of mourning / analysis for poor Thok, who I think was really going on the right track.


Unfortunately, obviously I missed day2's post-crash discussion from what I discern to be about bird mainly. Some people seem to be under fire for attacking bird during this crash period, but I think that attacking bird is 100% justified. I strongly disagree with his analysis of some of the people in this post:
Post 535 That, combined with what everyone else has generally been mentioning post-crash...poor defense, etc, is leading me to

vote bird1111

.

Anyways, I'm an outsider coming in, it should be fun hearing my thoughts in full and maybe getting an unique perspective. Here goes!

I figure starting with the particular opinions of mine that differ from bird's posts is best:

• Mastermind of Sin: bird made a slight accusation against MoS. In my notes, and maybe I only see this because I read all of Day1 through in a row and paid special attention to Mastermind saying "You might want to take notes on my posts," Mastermind of Sin has been making some of the most insightful posts. Some of the meanings can be ambigious if you don't really catch the context, but if one pays attention, it's really quite deep...Mastermind of Sin seems like very very townie with a good head in this game.
  
• MrBuddyLee: bird, like many people, have mentioned that MrBuddyLee is "hard to read." I suppose that's so, this is my first game with him, my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.
  
• Nightson: I loved his entrance into the game so much. It was different than mainstream opinion, and very very correct. It struck my townie chord. Post 323
  
• Pablito: You are THE MAN. I love your style of play. It makes you easily targetted, and you WERE easily targetted, but I'm feeling heavy townie vibes. Very very very strong townie vibes. Someday in the future, those who were on Pablito trains...those who took the easy route...will be analyzed. Someday.
  
• petroleumjelly: I think you did really well as the king. I would not have chosen to execute Rosso Carne, however. (Easy of me to say since that's in the past, but I actually have "the honor" of having Rosso Carne as the inexperienced challenged guy in one of my newbie games ><). I think that your reign as king really was one of a townie.

More to follow about the other guys, and my feelings on peteroleumjelly's big analysis from post 516. I'll address what I agree with him on, and what I disagree with him on.

This post jumped out to me as having a townie vibe, but I wanted to add that I'm glad you seem to be enjoying yourself.

While I think Thok is never a bad pick for scum to execute N1, I'll note that the longer Glork, PJ and Pooky are left around the closer they should be watched. Glork in particular is a prime N1 scum target. Particularly in a game where it'd make sense to off someone who'd make an excellent pro-town king.

Scum could be playing WIFOM games. They could lynch ubertimmy tomorrow to make us wonder why the good scumhunters aren't being lynched. But if I die tonight or soon, keep in mind that the longer the "good" players, the ones who'd make good kings, remain alive, the more closely they should be watched.

"Scum could be playing WIFOM games."

I like how the first paragraph is a WIFOM game, in my eyes.

[Zindaras]

Unfortunately, a Player-by-Player analysis will have to wait till tomorrow, it's too late for me now.

[Zindaras]

I had not yet read up to the point where other people were suspicious of Yos as well, so that's okay. I'm working on my notes to make them more easily browsable, and I'll post my full opinions after that (and after I respond to other Mafias).

[Zindaras]

Opinion time!

Please note that all of the following opinions were made with help of my notes. If there is a factual error, please point it out.

bird111

: He gave off a scumvibe in Post 88, which a lot of people jumped on. He posted suspicions against Glork, Pablito Day 1 and suspicions against Mert, Phoebus, Twomz, Pooky and Yos Day 2. People who found him suspicious were PJ, CTD, Mert, cbox and Thok Day 1 and Pablito, MBL, Phoebus, PJ and LL Day 2.

I think he's town currently.

cardb0ardb0x

: I got a scummy vibe from Post 58, which again was jumped on by a lot of people. He posted suspicions against pablito, MBL, Rosso, Glork, bird, Phoebus and pablito Day 1 and suspicions against Riki, Fritz and PJ Day 2. People who found him suspicious were MBL, PJ, Twomz, SC, Rosso, spectrumvoid, LL, Mert and ubertimmy Day 1.

I think he's bad town currently, though I'm not really liking how he's been flying a bit under the radar lately (only 3 entries so far Day 2).

CrashTextDummie

: Now it gets interesting. CTD started off with a good feeling towards cbox and a scummy feeling towards bird. Fritz went guano against him, after which Twomz vote him as well to satiate Fritz. He got town vibes from PJ, cbox and Glork and was suspicious of bird and ubertimmy. MBL had him on an execution list with Rosso and Twomz. Pablito was suspicious of him. Day 2 he voted PJ, SC, Twomz and timmy, which gave me a very scummy vibe (Post 557), especially since he had stated to have been getting town vibes from PJ earlier. Pablito later voted and unvoted him. He also agreed with MBL's theory linking PJ and pablito together.

I think he's quite scummy. Post 557 contained some votes that struck me as very scummy, and he has a minor link with MBL.

Dead Rikimaru

: Not a lot on this guy. In fact, I can just put all my notes regarding him here:
Pablito votes MBL and says Dead Rikimaru may have planted suspicion regarding Pablito-Glork.
Thok unvotes pablito, bird, Dead Rikimaru and Nightson and votes MoS.
PJ executes Rosso. (this is put in every section of my notes to keep days apart)
Riki votes pablito.
Cbox doesn't like Riki's lurking, Fritz's playstyle and PJ's execution style.

This isn't useful at all. I want more entries here.

Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)

: Again, someone with very little information on him. My first entry in the notes is that he attacked Thok for defending PJ. Thok was extremely suspicious of Vaughn and wanted him lynched badly. There are no entries Day 2. I don't have a lot of entries where Vaughn/Der Hammer actually attacks or defends anyone either.

Fritzler

: I hate people who play like crap intentionally. But I'll admit that there are some interesting entries into my log here. He started off going guano against CTD and Twomz supported him. Thok had a vote on him for a while, and Glork stated him as being pro-town. Now, Day 2, we had votes on Fritz by MBL and SC. I can see people trying to defend CTD against Fritz. I'm leaning to town currently, but he really can be anything.

*King Glork*

: I have over a page of notes on him. I've had a scum vibe from his Post 244 and a Town vibe from his interaction with Mert, Post 346 and before. He "attacked" PJ early on, which I didn't like, but he stopped when PJ asked him to.
Now, as for his opinions, here's an entry from Day 1:
Glork states:
-Fritzler pro-town.
-cbox pro-town.
-MBL scummy, but not scum.
-MoS is a moron.
-Thok doesn't sit well.
-Yos is pro-town.
-PJ is definitely pro-town.
-Rosso is scummy.
-Placeholder votes CTD.

He puts two townies as scummy/not sitting well. He has Yos as Town, and really seems to be suspicious of only MBL of people who are still alive. He stated he couldn't get a read on Vaughn. Day 2 I've been liking his posts somewhat more. I put an agree vibe on Post 566, in which he voted Twomz, Pooky and MBL. MBL attacked him, and tried to create links between him, pablito and PJ. Glork attacked Yos, who defended himself awkwardly against him. His LoE is Pooky, Pablito, MBL and Yos.

I'm usually quite good at reading Glork, but he's way out there this game. I've got conflicting vibes from him. I know he pulls crazy stuff like what he did early game as town as well as scum, so that's not very useful. What is currently decisive for my opinion on him are the people who are attacking him. I don't trust MBL at all.

LuckayLuck (rep. Ameliaslay)

: This is a conflicting one. Thok voted Amelia Day 1. Amelia proceeded to FoS cbox. Thok noted Glork's defense of Amelia (if Amelia is scum, this is definitely something to remember). Amelia voted Phoebus Post 242, which gave off a scum vibe to me. Amelia attacked Nightson later on, which made Thok suspicious. LL came in Day Two and immediately gave off a Town vibe in Post 688, even though I very much disliked how (s)he said MoS, MBL, Nightson, pablito and PJ are all town, and only put bird (and later timmy) as scum. (S)he also weakened off MBL's townieness later on. Personally, I can see hir (I need to know a gender) as both scum and town currently. If (s)he's scum, I will be looking at MBL (because (s)he stated him as very much town early on and then weakened it off when it turned out MBL was under suspicion) and Glork (see Thok interaction Day 1). (S)he's not a major suspect right now, though.

Mastermind of Sin

: Was attacked by Twomz, Mert, Yos, Thok, MBL (minorly) and SC. Buddied up to Phoebus. Looking at who attacked him and the vibes he's been giving off, I think he's town, currently. But first, I want him to tell why he put Thok, ubertimmy and Yos on his execution list Day 1.

Mert

: Voted bird and MoS early on. Yos defended him. He also made an attack on cbox, stating that PJ shouldn't think he's town just because he reminds him of a townie in the original Kingmaker. Glork noted MBL's linking of him to Mert. He voted Twomz and Pooky Day 2.

I'm definitely getting scum vibes from him. Bird, MoS and cbox I think are town, and I'm leaning to town on both Twomz and Pooky. Yos defended him, and MBL tried to link him to Glork (possibly to get Glork lynched after Mert's lynch). I also don't like the way he's playing this game. He seems to not really be contributing a lot.

MrBuddyLee

: I actually have a Town vibe listed from Post 171, but that was really all. I don't like how he's playing. At all. He attacked pablito, timmy, SC, cbox and Glork early on, then said pablito, Phoebus and MoS were being awkward, then made a list of execution containing Rosso, Twomz and CTD. Day 2 he voted Fritz and timmy.

He's posted strange stuff all game. He stated pablito was suspicious for changing a vote to a FoS. He tried to link Mert to Glork. He brought up the nutty nuts-theory. He tried to link PJ, pablito and Glork. He stated that PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died, not Thok. I also noticed a lack of interaction between him and Yos, which could be construed as distancing. I definitely think he's scum right now.

Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)

: Unfortunately, there is very little information to be found about Nightson. He was suspicious of pablito and Phoebus Day 1, and was attacked by Amelia and pablito, and was defended by Thok. Nightson voted Twomz Day 2, and appeared rather strangely on LL's Town list. He also stated he thinks PJ, Glork and MBL are all town.

I can see him as scum, but, to be honest, there's nothing that warrants that right now.

Pablito

: I had a scum vibe from Post 318 and a town vibe from Post 394. MBL attacked him early on. Cbox, Thok and Yos also attacked him. MBL attacked him for changing a vote to a FoS. He attacked CDB/SC over very tentative reasoning. Day Two he voted timmy, CTD (unvoted later), Yos, bird (unvoted later), SC and Mert. He was attacked by Glork, Riki, Phoebus, Yos, MBL and CTD, most of which I can see as scum. Interestingly enough, Yos and MBL were numbers 4 and 5 here.

To be honest, pablito's been all over the map. His voting behaviour can be of any alignment, but I'm leaning to town due to Yos/MBL attacking him.

petroleumjelly

: I got a town vibe from his Post 57. I put the fact that he kept referring to himself as "town and not scum like last Kingmaker" as a random note to keep in mind, but MBL jumped on that. CTD, cbox and MBL attacked him Day 2.

I will be extremely surprised if he's scum. I haven't played in another game with him yet, so I have nothing to compare his play to, but his Day 1 play just screamed town to me. I'm not really overjoyed by him fading away from the spotlights Day 2. I would definitely like to hear some more from him.

Phoebus

: Though his posts weren't exactly stellar Day 1, I can definitely see a scum-driven wagon right there. He's been on pablito, Yos and bird Day 2.

I'm not very comfortable with the way the wagon on him has developed. MoS is his buddy, though Phoebus hasn't responded to MoS at all. My guess right now would be town.

PookyTheMagicalBear

: Has been very passive all game. The only two entries in which he was active in my log was one where he (jokingly) attacks Rosso/ShadowLurker and one where he attacks Glork and states PJ is the best King.

His lurking annoys me. I'm under the impression that Pooky is a good player, so I would expect more of him. Looking at the people who have attacked him Day 2, I've listed Glork, Mert, PJ, Bird and SC. He's possible scum, but I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being town.

spectrumvoid

: I have lots of scum vibes from him. Post 385 (if pablito's town), Post 561 and I also got scum vibes from her flip-flopping on Glork. The entry for that is this:

Spectrumvoid doesn't get MBL's case on Glork.
Spectrumvoid votes Glork.
Vibe: Spectrumvoid scum, completely switches opinions on Glork
Spectrumvoid unvotes Glork.

She made a late attack on cbox and refused to cut him slack.

I'm getting the feeling she's trying to stay on the Kings' good side (she's been friendly towards both Glork and PJ). She hasn't attacked a lot of people during the game, and didn't deliver opinions regarding people under heavy suspicion. I definitely think she's scum.

StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)

: Was found scummy by MBL (quite a bit, actually) and Pablito Day 1. Day 2, CTD voted him, which was later jumped on by spectrumvoid. Pablito later voted him as well. SC votes Fritz, Pooky and MoS.

I'm a bit conflicted about this. I don't really like the last entry in my log (voting Fritz, Pooky and MoS), but I definitely think scum may be looking to lynch him (as evidenced by attacks on him by MBL, CTD and spectrumvoid). I'd put him as town right now, though that may change.

Twomz

: My memory's telling me that he was more active in other games we've played in together, but I'm not sure. He attacked MoS, cbox, CTD and Phoebus over the course of the game. MoS countered his attack. MBL put him on his LoE Day 1. Day 2 he apparently jumped on the birdwagon which I do find suspicious.

I can't say anything about his behaviour regarding the birdwagon. I don't like how MBL, who I think is scum, put him on his LoE. I'm leaning to town right now, but he could be scum.

UberTimmy

: Voted MBL and spectrumvoid early on and was suspicious of cbox. Agreed with MoS about PJ. Was attacked by pablito, MoS, CTD, MBL, spectrumvoid, PJ and LL over the course of the game.

I'm going out on a limb here and say ubertimmy's town. This is an impression that could change, but I just think he's town.

Yosarian2

: Another interesting case. I had three scum vibes from him, from Posts 189, 376 and 426. He defended Mert and attacked MoS. He FoSed pablito. He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself). He voted Phoebus. Though Glork stated he thought Yos was pro-town Day 1, he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly. He voted Twomz and pablito.

I was suspicious of Yos all reread, and I'm happy to see others picked up on it, even though they did it much later than I did. I've played with Yos before in Reverse Mafia (Mini 370) and his play style seems to be different from that game (in which he was town). I definitely think he's scum.

Zindaras:

Welcome to the game. Help your ol' buddy Glorky out and tell him who the dirty scumbaggos are.

Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, Mert, spectrumvoid, CrashTextDummie. Happy executing.

[Zindaras]

Oh, yes, let's vote, too.

Vote: Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, Mert, spectrumvoid, CrashTextDummie

.

[Zindaras]

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two.

*points at his case against MBL*

Then how do you explain the odd behaviour I outlined in my above post, which you fail to address?

I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either.

Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he's town? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he's scum, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him.

Then do a reread on him.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

I'm not picking up anything (towny or scummy) regarding Twomz, so I'm waiting eagerly for him to make a nice post.

[Zindaras]

Oh, by the way, pablito, aren't you in any way disliking how MBL's linking you to Glork and PJ?

Also, for some reason, I thought there was only 5 scum. *scratches head*

Then I think one of pablito/Dead Rikimaru/Twomz/Pooky is also scum.

Pablito's been saying he's suspicious of MBL Day 1. Here are relevant entries in my log:

Pablito votes MBL and says Dead Rikimaru may have planted suspicion regarding Pablito-Glork.
Pablito thinks MBL is arguing on the wrong level to accuse cbox.

I'm really happy to see 4 of the 5 who are my main suspects on Glork's LoE, though I would like to know why he left out spectrumvoid.

[Zindaras]

I wish I could figure out why people in most of the games I'm in right now suddenly are convinced I'm scum without being able to give any good reasons. Was I just playing wierd last month or something?

I've already stated quite a good case against you, but apparently, you see it as having no good reasons.

You defended Mert, who I view as scummy. You attacked MoS (who is very townish) in the same post. You pressured PJ to pressure others, instead of doing it yourself. I'm not getting the scumhunting vibe from you I got in Reverse.

Anyway, it's rather disturbing the way Glork got all those "homework assignments" and failed to comment on any of them. I'm having second thoughts about his alignment, especally as "make a list of 5 people you think are pro-town" does not seem like something a pro-town person is likely to demand someone else do on day 2. And he neglected to answer my question about why he wanted that information.

Your weak attempt to discredit Glork is noted. Now, onto what you're saying.

especally as "make a list of 5 people you think are pro-town" does not seem like something a pro-town person is likely to demand someone else do on day 2.

No, this is actually quite useful. Scum likes to just say people are scummy and never actually say people are town, because that limits their options in later stages. By forcing people to state who they think are town, Glork limits scum's options.

[Zindaras]

(Re: Pooky)Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he's town? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he's scum, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

Which, I might add, is *QUITE* contrary to his early attack on me, in which he attacked me for allegedly not trying to catch scum.

Noted.

[Zindaras]

I don't really see how trying to tie people together is a scum tell anyway; it's a perfectly reasonable way of trying to find scum.

Clearly I'm suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, and Ameliaslay. In the future, don't expect me to be this nice about it, either. I will not go around saying "I suspect so-and-so". That's where the whole reading of my posts thing comes into play. Next time do your homework, kthnxbai.

It was not all that clear from those posts that you suspected those people, MOS. Just because I disagree with a point someone makes does not automatically mean I suspect them. And it's still not clear which one you suspect more, and your posts are certanly not going to put any pressure on any of them or get them to respond or defed themselves in any way, and it didn't even get me to take a closer look at them or anything like that, so I must say that as a scum-hunting technique, your one-liner responses without votes seems pretty worthless.

If you're not going to vote, you should at least "fos" or something, and I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to even just clearly state "I am currently suspicious Twomz". Do you really think everyone is going to sit down and pore through every one of your posts to try to get some kind of hint as to what MOS might or might not be thinking?

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

Post 189 was me pointing out, again, why MOS's plan of action was and is directly harmfull to the town. If someone does something that's bad for the town, it makes it more likely they're scum, and it also means that pro-town people should try to pressure them to act differently. I don't see why people don't seem to get that, with Glork dismissing my attack against MOS as a "metagame vote" and no one else willing to back me up to put more pressure on him. So what, exactally, is scummy about that post?

The first line is a defense of the way Mert's been playing. For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

Post 376:

Ok, some quick thoughts on the people on the king's list of exectuion.

Pablito: His constant defense/buddying up to Glork is a minor scum tell, and he hasn't done much else.

Bird111: all he's done is vote Gork and Pablito for no good reason. Clearly :not helpfull: at best.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

CDB: Don't really see anything too suspicious about him at this point.

King PJ had asked for comments about the people on his list of execution, and so I re-read all the posts of those people and posted my thoughts. More people should have done that, but they weren't. If you want to find scum, why not look at the people who weren't trying to help the king make a decision, as opposed to the few people who were?

I don't like how you post conflictingly here. You state Phoebus, pablito and bird as both scummy and townish. I don't like the general tone of your post.

Post 426:

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

And again, what's wrong with this post? When the king says "I'm going to execute one of these three people", every pro-town person in the game SHOULD comment on that, and say "Well, if you're going to execute A, B, or C, I'd suggest B, because....".

You ignore everyone but those on the scum list, as if you're happy with whatever happens. You think inside the box. That's not something I'm used to from you.

He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself).

I'd been trying to pressure MOS for most of the day, and it did exactally nothing. He basically ignored me, everyone else basically ignored me, and nothing changed at all, he felt absolutly no pressure to change his anti-town behavior. So yeah, I came to the conclusion that we needed to have the king start pressuring people if we were going to get anywhere. Do you disagree?

I think you should always try to do your own job, instead of asking others to do it for you.

He voted Phoebus.

Yup, and I still think he's scum. What's your point?

I don't.

he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly

I "defended myself against very awkwardly"? How so? What in my defense did you disagree with?

[/quote]

I think your defense against the attacks on you and your attacks on Glork aren't very strong.

[Zindaras]

Just wondering...when did I defend mert? I don't remember doing that.

In Post 189, you defend the way Mert played up to that point.

(shrug) I'm sure I was giving off a different vibe in reverse, it was a very different game. For one thing, in Reverse I spent the whole day 1 trying to get myself "elected".

And in this game you should spend the whole day trying to find scum. And I don't see you doing that.

[Zindaras]

Hmm, quite a quick response from a guy like you.

A guy like me? What's that supposed to mean?

I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either.

Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he's town? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he's scum, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

WTF? So not thinking Pooky is the "right play" is suddenly crying out that I think he's town? Things are not mutually exclusive. To make it clearer, Pooky is in my "not enough evidence

as of late

to be sure of his alignment" pile. Yos is in there too.

But right now, the above quote by Zindaras makes me wonder why he so suddenly jumped on my post and what's going on there. But using bad logic like that makes me feel he's more passioned townie than using intentional craplogic.

You're defending Pooky as not being the right play. Let me rephrase that, though:

Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he shouldn't be executed? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he should be, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him.

Then do a reread on him.

When I care to do so. If you absolutely think I need to, then get Glork to request that I do yet ANOTHER re-read on him aside from the one that's been mostly ignored. Or better yet, Zind, you can also look back at my long post on Yos, Mert, spectrum, CDB, Riki and someone else I can't remember and realize that I was wavering on my stance on Yos back then and I'm only confirming that I still can't find damning evidence on Yos and thus my unvote and uncertain stance on him are justified.

You reply to 4 of his posts. That's hardly encompassing everything. You ignore, for example, the post in which he FoSes you. I think you could take more of a stance on him.


I want to see a stance on Yos from you, pablito. I don't care if you're unsure. I want to know it.

I also very much dislike how you're seemingly trying to stay on the fact that MBL and Glork are both town (something that could also be said for Nightson, by the way).

Add-on to the previous post: Seriously, Yos. I'm glad that some players like Luckay and Zindaras are willing to replace into the game and can bring something to the table right away. Lurking in games sickens me, even more so in mountainous games. I don't remember if you were in Lights Out or not, but strategic lurking almost won the game for the scum. I want

other people

to start talking because I don't want anybody slinking their way around until mid- to late-game situations.

You're welcome. <3

Oh, and quoted for undeniable truthery.

[Zindaras]

Glork's list:
MBL
Mert
Yos
Pooky
Pablito?
CTD?
StCh?

To be honest, the only one that will make me think Glork's scummy is StallingChamp, for I don't find him scummy at all.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras voted me just now to join you in your folly, and I think his reasoning was far less than thorough.

How is my reasoning far less than thorough? You can just say that it is, but you don't explain that at all.

You're going to get crucified tomorrow if you lynch me today unless you drum up some more support, so I suggest you start working on that now.

I don't like how you're trying to scare Glork out of executing you here. I don't think you should be executed today (I find Yos even scummier), but I don't like this.

[Zindaras]

I do think that everyone should reply to what MBL asked. It is useful.

[Zindaras]

God, is Glork's execution list terrible. "Hey, Ima choose between four good scumhunters, help me pick one while we ignore the lurkers and less experienced scum."

Glork's main list is MBL, Mert, Pooky and Yos. How are Mert and Pooky not lurkers? How are they hunting scum this game? Because I don't see them posting.

I just reread Pooky. He hasn't expressed many opinions on various players. He has made some valid points, like the "KM as executioner" point and pointing out the folly of Glork drawing attention to himself if he's town. Pooky's thin on suspicions in all games lately, I think it's a survival tactic due to past NK issues, and it's tough to tell whether he's scum or town now. I think the king should demand more info from Pooky. I'd also like Glork to reiterate his reasons for wanting to execute each person on his list. The list posts by player functionality is crippled and makes searching for this ourselves very difficult right now.

Then Pooky isn't playing to the best of his abilities and should be prodded into doing so. But, personally, I don't like it when people don't play to the best of their abilities. I find it scummy. People shouldn't be afraid of being NK'd. That only helps the lurkers win.

Yos has been primarily defensive, and suspects Twomz and Phoebus, two people who haven't said much. For bad votes with no stated reasons on bad wagons. He finds PJ pablito bird cbox townish. He's gone from finding Glork explicitly pro-town to finding him suspect over the past three weeks. Meh play by Yos overall.

Meh? I'd rather put it as bad.

Pablito, I've commented on recently. I think I may have found a slip in his post about PJ's execution list, but that requires that bird and pabs are scum together. I think he gave PJ cover or encouraged PJ to execute Rosso. Thing is, he's posted an absolute shitload of content, and if he's protown he's very helpful town to have around. If he's scum, he'll probably hang himself and his friends. Unless he's a master of achieving randomness of suspicion and comment, which I don't kn9ow cause I haven't played with him much.

I haven't seen him play like this before. Pablito was, by the way, the one to start the Rosso wagon (he was first to vote Rosso or otherwise bring him to attention).

Why are none of the useless people on the execution list? This is a Mountainous game ffs. My scumteam won Himalayan with the following strategy:

* lie low
* express balanced suspicions of safe targets
* keep lurkers and noncontributors around to endgame to cast suspicion on later

Pooky and Mert are both quite useless right now, and I think they could both be said as lying low, especially if you compare how they're playing to their normal play.

Please add CTD to the people who find my actions reasonable this game. Also,

vote: CTD

. I've read him in games where he was fabulously insightful. Where's the curiosity, CTD? Your defense of me, while accurate, is easily something scum could do safely, knowing that when I come up pro-town someday, having defended my arguments will be a +1 in your book. I'd really like to see a complete list of CTD suspicions beyond the lurker list of votes you posted three weeks ago.

Distancing noted.

Glork said:

I'm going to read over CTD's posts soon to see how I feel about him. Hey Fritz, who are CTD's scumbuddies?

But CTD's not on the list of execution, only on a Glork list of possible scum. Fascinating.

How else do you want to get stuff out of Fritz?

Twomz's posts today:

Lol, in all my games the major posts attacking or defending <____> are gone.... wtf?

still here

Glork voted Twomz but did not add him to his execution list despite Twomz posting absolutely nothing for three weeks. Curious.

I'll agree, though I don't find Twomz that suspicious myself.

Rikimaru: four posts, one about nothing, three about pablito. And Rikimaru hasn't made Glork's radar. Brilliant Kingship, your majesty.

vote: Rikimaru

He just needs to be replaced, in my eyes.

cardboardbox posted substance once today, three weeks ago, to attack three lurkers. Nothing since. No attention from the King on cbox for this slackness that I've noted.

He needs a prod, nothing more.

This is nonsense, Nightson. If you're a king, you decide who you want to execute, then you run it by your town. If they don't agree with you, you listen to them, seeing as how the majority of them are good guys.

I don't see any reason for Glork to state his execution target right now. We're in the middle of quite an activity boost and we're getting lots of information. I think Glork should run it by the town, but only later.

If you go ahead and execute your target anyway:

1) You'll probably nail a townie
2) You'll probably get annihilated tomorrow for going against the wishes of your town.

I am not making this observation selectively towards Glork. PJ also did not make a good case against Rosso, did NOT get the town's support for the lynch, and today PJ is viewed as suspect by many for it. It's a DUH thing: get your town's support for your lynch, and if you can't make them buy your case, maybe just maybe you're wrong about it.

Again, I'm getting the impression you're trying to scare Glork here.

Guys, we aren't going to get investigation results on cbox or StallingChamp or Rikimaru. It's going to come down to day eight and four of these slack bastards are going to be around along with three scum. And unless we put them on the hotseat

NOW

and get them talking, it'll be a coinflip as to which are scum and which are town. Good luck with that.

So you support an execution of these guys or what?

And Glork's sealed the deal by saying he knows he's going to execute, removing all incentive for scum to comment at this point.

Opinions do change, you know.

You're going to get crucified tomorrow if you lynch me today unless you drum up some more support, so I suggest you start working on that now.

I don't like how you're trying to scare Glork out of executing you here. I don't think you should be executed today (I find Yos even scummier), but I don't like this.

2) I'm not trying to scare Glork out of executing me. Read more carefully. I'm trying to get Glork to drum up town support for his case against me. If he can't, that says something. Anyone who thinks I'm trying to intimidate Glork out of executing me is wrong. I'm asking him to lay out his case to see if it holds water, because that's how the game is played. Nightson just voted me for the same reason you don't like my comment here: you both misread it.

More than once I've caught scum but noone was willing to believe me. If Glork really thinks he has a rock-solid case against you, I don't see why you shouldn't be on his LoE. You're acting like Glork's already executed you.

I don't like how he's(MBL's) playing. At all. He attacked pablito, timmy, SC, cbox and Glork early on, then said pablito, Phoebus and MoS were being awkward, then made a list of execution containing Rosso, Twomz and CTD. Day 2 he voted Fritz and timmy.

Zind, you don't explain what's wrong about any of this

at all

. "No reasoning".

You go from pablito/timmy/sc/cbox/Glork to pablito/Phoebus/MoS to Rosso/Twomz/CTD. That's quite a changing list. I find that suspicious, since, to me, it seems a bit like you're just trying to find a good execution target and you disregard the rest.

He's posted strange stuff all game. He stated pablito was suspicious for changing a vote to a FoS. He tried to link Mert to Glork. He brought up the nutty nuts-theory. He tried to link PJ, pablito and Glork. He stated that PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died, not Thok.

Again, you don't explain why ANY of this is strange. It's not self-evident, trust me.

Why

do you find the nut-kicking theory strange, for example? Why do you find any of the above listed things strange? Many people have found many of those observations of mine quite reasonable, so make your case.

I find it odd that you attacked pablito for changing a vote to a FoS. There really is quite a small difference, but I don't see why only scum would see that difference.

Linking Mert to Glork was rather ridiculous, in my eyes, when Glork was asking Mert for clarification.

The nuts-theory...I have played in quite a few Mafias, and I've never seen it happen.

Linking PJ, pablito and Glork. Again, pablito was on PJ's and Glork's execution list.

I don't see the reasoning why PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died over Thok, so I think you're trying to cast suspicion on good, active players that way.

[Zindaras]

Keeping different cases to different posts:

The only person I voted because of lurking was ubertimmy. I did it because I hoped to get him to talk, but such endeavors have been proven to be fruitless without the kings support.

Endeavour

s

? You posted the votes. You never followed up on them. You never really tried to get the king to prod them (in fact, you didn't even ask for a prod when you voted him). You were content with just lying low.

I voted Twomz and StallingChamp because they have both posted scummy stuff, most of which was unfortunately lost in the crash. Since then, they have both fallen off the face of the earth, which makes me think that my votes are in the right place. I am particularly confused by Glorks lack of interest in Twomz: He (Glork) was the first to point out a

blatant

logical fallacy that Twomz flung in my face, but either doesn't remember or doesn't care about it anymore, now that it has been wiped from the record books.

You vote them for one scummy move, but you don't point out why else we should vote them. You don't make a case, you just point out scummy posts, apparently hoping other people jump on it.

I had very little trouble with PJ during most of D1, hence why I said I'm getting townievibes from him. But the way the execution went down still leaves me hugely dissatisfied. I'm not even holding against him that he offed a townie, as the odds were very much against a townie-king. It's the way he brought Rosso to the execution block at the very last minute without giving him a chance to defend himself

at all

that rubs me the wrong way. Is it possible that PJ was so short on time that he couldn't do better even if he wanted to and he thought that he was doing the right thing? Of course. Would this be an optimal excuse for a scum king to kill an innocent? Very much so.

Rosso was under suspicion for quite a while. He posted nothing in his defense. He didn't respond to pablito's allegation. He didn't respond to anything after his first few posts, which were very very odd.

The king is the only person in this game that can be judged by his actions, as opposed to his words. I personally felt like PJ's reign was ultimately more in line with that of a scum king, and I voted him for that. His defence (now lost in the crash), which basically amounted to "I didn't have time, think of that whatever you want" (feel free to correct me if you feel misrepresented, PJ) wasn't exactly inspiring either.

So you ignore PJ's posting throughout the entire day and condemn him for his execution?

I'll note, by the way, that you nicely avoided weighing in on Rosso.

If you think I am "quite scummy" because some of my votes "struck you as very scummy", I want to know which of these 4 votes you are objecting against and why.

PJ and SC. Your vote on PJ is damning him for his one move and you leave everything else he's posted out. SC because you damn him, again, for his one post in which he said PJ made a good execution.

Ubertimmy's just reeks of hypocriticism, and ignores all the other lurkers. Twomz's is one I cannot comment on, for I don't know what he posted.

What disturbs me most of all is that you don't make cases. You just post random scummy tidbits and hope others do the work for you. I see that as scum trying to avoid the spotlight and get town lynched.

I am the king. That makes me responsible for the execution. But every single player has a responsibility to contribute and to help find scum. Part of that task is maximizing activity, since more discussion theoretically promotes scumfinding. You, MBL, along with every other player, share this responsibility. To sluff the activity/health of the game onto the king is ludicrous. If you look back on the early-game discussion in KM1, you'll see that many players ultimately wanted to keep the game as collective as possible. Make the king responsible for executing somebody. Otherwise, try to normalize the game as much as possible. It makes the most sense, it gives the best odds of the town finding scum, and it means that each and every player shares a responsibility to promote activity within the game.

QFT. This is something I am missing very much in most of the players on my scumlist, which is, in part, why I'm attacking them.

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

Your generalization of the argument and failure to respond to any specific part of it or to state any reasoning at all is noted.

Responses to Yos and spectrumvoid will come later, when I have more time.

[Zindaras]

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

Two interesting things to note: MoS never said he wouldn't contribute. He simply said he wouldn't vote. There is no huge disadvantage to not voting in this setup, if you contribute.

As for the second thing, MoS is the only "non-contributor" who you have attacked in this way. We have far more non-contributors, who have contributed far less than MoS. I don't see you calling those out, specifically.

(shrug) The game was dragging, people were not posting, and there was a deadline coming up. I didn't feel like I had much to say either, but we needed to get conversation going, so I just re-read all of the posts of the people on the execution list and wrote down my thoughts as they came to me. I was trying to stir discussion on those three people, becuase it seemed clear that the king was going to execute on of them, and it apparently failed as most people still didn't comment on them. This game has been pretty frustrating for me pretty much all the way through, and all game I've felt like I've been talking into an echo chamber where everyone ignores me and nothing I say or do seems to matter.

You didn't raise amazing points regarding the three. Your opinions were mainly one-liners.

Again, based on PJ's earlier thoughts, it seemed clear that he WAS going to execute someone on that list, and there was nothing I could do about that. Anyway, if someone picks three people they think are suspicious, the odds are very good that at least one of them is scum, so there's certanly something to be gained by wieghing in on which one looked most suspicious to me.

Now, if I had looked at PJ's list and thought that all three of the people looked townie to me, I would have said so. I did not.

Your stances on all 4 were noncommittal. I find that very suspicious.

I think that in this kind of game we need to have at least some support from the king in order to put pressure on people. No one really feels pressured unless they really think they're at risk.

Now, it dosn't have to be active support; if the King just said something like "Anyone with 8 votes will be automatically added to the LOE", then votes would be a useful form of pressure. But without at least the passive support of the King, it's very hard to pressure people.

You didn't even try, you just told the King to do it. However small, pressure is pressure.

Ok. What has Phoebus done that makes you think he's pro-town? Use specifics, please.

I like his voting behaviour, or most of it (votes on Mert and you). I think MoS is town, and MoS is very sure about Phoebus' townieness.

I was asking for specifics here. What about my defense do you disagree with?

Basically, I agree with Glork's points in Post 601.

The real problem is that we got almost no information day 1, because the king executed someone almost no one had commented on, and most people in the game haven't commented on most people in the execution list it looks like we're heading that way again (although a few now have; nice summery SV).

Oh, I disagree with you there. There were definitely comments on Rosso:

Cardb0ardb0x is suspicious of pablito, MBL and ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne votes Cbox.
Cbox OMGUSes ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
Pooky (jokingly) attacks ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne votes Phoebus and Mert.
Rosso Carne thinks pablito is stupid, PJ is scum and Phoebus is town.
Vibe: Rosso wtf?, Posts 273-278.
Rosso thinks PJ is scum for posting like he's in the scum's heads.
MBL makes a "get your shit together vote" on Rosso.
Pablito votes Rosso, doesn't think Vaughn is scummy.
Glork states: -Rosso is scummy.
PJ will consider Phoebus, bird111 and Rosso.
MBL wants Rosso, Twomz or CTD executed.
Pablito is suspicious of Pooky and CTD and wants a Rosso execution.
PJ posts opinions in Post 516. Puts bird111, pablito, Phoebus, Rosso, spectrumvoid (not so much), Vaughn/Hammer (same performance as KM) as scum.
PJ executes Rosso.

Note MBL here. He went from:

vote: Rosso.

I doubt scum would act that retarded, so he's probably town. This is a "get your shit together, man" vote.

To wanting him executed.

There was definitely interaction between Rosso and other players.

Cardboardbox probably needs to be replaced, he's vanished from the game I'm modding as well.

I can live with that, but it'll be difficult to find replacements for this game.

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

I've answered this question before, but my LOE would still consist of Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, CrashTextDummie, Mert and spectrumvoid.

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

Mert. We can extract enough information and behaviour from the others before deciding to kick them out, but Mert will probably not come back.

[Zindaras]

Hey Zindaras, I'm curious, are you pitching or catching for Glork's team in tonight's doubleheader? Good god, man, I didn't think anyone could possibly kiss up more than pablito did, but you've done it. Congratulations. I counted thirty-seven distinct suckups to Glork by you, and you've only been in the game four days. And I nearly split a spleen laughing when I read this:

I wanted to know if Glork wanted me to keep an eye out for specific players and such. For the rest, I'm not sucking up to Glork. If you think I'm sucking up to Glork because I'm defending him/I think the people who attack him are scum, you need to understand that defending=/=sucking up. I think you're suspicious, and you're attacking Glork. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and such. It is only logical that we would be found to have comparable opinions.

I can't believe you have the gall to say that when every other sentence you type is a defense of a Glork action or an attack on a comment about Glork. pablito did it strategically for some curious reason or another, but yours looks more like straight up brown-nosing, and it's going to trash your credibility in this game if you're not careful.

Oooh, now I have to be careful, or the big bad boogeyking will execute me!

I already outlined the whats and whys above.

You say you're primarily finding Glork and pablito innocent because of who's attacking them. Well, let me tell you how I see your entry into this game. As scum or town, you decided to make faith in Glork the cornerstone of your worldview. Now, every action anyone takes is seen by you through Glork-colored glasses. And it doesn't sound like you're keeping the option open that the people criticizing Glork are town--you're trying to splat every single anti-Glork point down with a giant flyswatter.

You're putting it wrongly here. I think people attacking Glork are scum, thus I think Glork is Town, not the other way around. It's even in my Player-by-Player Analysis.

What is currently decisive for my opinion on him are the people who are attacking him.

Read better.

If you're town, I hope you realize you're on an island by yourself as you find everything I say scummy and you find everything Glork says smells like roses. It's true that occasionally one town makes a brilliant scum discovery that no one else agrees with, but let me tell ya, ace, this ain't that time.

1) If they wouldn't be convinced of their rightness, the scum discoveries would be useless.
2) I'm not the only one who thinks you're scum.

Addressing your reasons for finding me scummy (which I think are all secondary to the real reason: cause I'm being big meanie to your pal Glork):

*laughs*

This is a silly comment. Since when are suspicions not supposed to change over the course of D1? OMG MBL U RANDOM VOTED PHOEBUS AND U DONT FIND HIM SCUMMY NEMORE WTF

First, you find 5 people suspicious. Then, you find 3 people suspicious, of which only one was on your original list. Then, you make a complete turn again, going to 3 entirely new people when it's lynching time. That's some huge changes, with no new info confirming people as town or scum (no lynches or kills), just posts.

Scum are more concerned with their image than town. Thus they'd be more likely to draw attention to changes in their image via tricks like this. I believe the first scum caught in Himalayan was nailed for doing something similar. I never said it was a guaranteed tell, just something to note.

Mind giving the proof for that?

Linking Mert to Glork was rather ridiculous, in my eyes, when Glork was asking Mert for clarification.

You bought Glork's "linking" paranoia hook, line and sinker, which is not surprising given your deepfelt love for him.

Yeah, I want to have his babies.

What actually happened is that Glork made a big post commenting on most of the players in the game. I noticed that he left out Mert and asked him for his opinion of Mert. Glork called me a fucking idiot who couldn't read. I corrected him--he'd actually never given his opinion of Mert, so he was wrong and I was immensely relieved to not be a fucking idiot. That is what actually happened, and it doesn't surprise me that you were too busy sucking Glork's toes to get the story correct.

Also, your attempts to link me to Mert specifically have also been noted. If I made comments on 16 other people, then there are 7 people that I did not make comments towards.

Your only response to that was :lameposting:. You tried to link Glork to Mert specifically, when there were other people Glork didn't comment on.

I thought you found Pooky a sucky, inactive player.

The fact that I dislike his play so far this game very much doesn't make him sucky.

I stated that Thok was a perfectly fine scumkill N1, so congratulations for missing the crux of my point entirely.

While

I think Thok is never a bad pick for scum to execute N1,

I'll note that the longer Glork, PJ and Pooky are left around the closer they should be watched.

Glork in particular is a prime N1 scum target. Particularly in a game where it'd make sense to off someone who'd make an excellent pro-town king.

The important parts are bolded. You want us to keep a closer eye on Glork, PJ and Pooky simply for surviving. I find that suspicious.

Sorry if this post seems harsh, it's actually all in good fun.

It's a bit harsh, yes, but I understand it's in good fun. It's just a game, after all.

And you really should get your nose out of there before any permanent damage is done.

Before?

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, your case against me is utterly ridiculous.

Well, that's a nice line to start with.

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it?

Why not? I mean, it doesn't have to be begging, but you can try to bring it to the King's attention.

It should also be noted that there's a difference between not posting at all for a while and posting every once in a while and saying nothing of susbtance in the process. It has already been proven in this game that prodding ubertimmy does not result in him posting any useful content.

Then why did you vote him? Prods nor votes were really helping.

Again, what do you expect me to do? I see something scummy, I vote. I'm sincerely sorry that I don't have 3 paragraph cases on all these people...[/sarcasm]

You could not make an extensive case on PJ? I mean, really, you think PJ is scum, you vote him, but you can't make a big case on him, even if he's been arguably the most prolific player Day One?

I really hope you are joking here, but pointing out scummy posts and voting accordingly is what a pro-town player is supposed to do. You did it yourself when you declared me scummy for one post I made. If I were able to make a detailed case against someone on D2 shortly after a significant number of posts have been lost, this game would be a lot easier.

Yes, you are correct. But you need to do more than just that. Pointing out scummy posts is not enough. You need to keep focusing attention on the players, ask them questions, be inquisitive.

The first time Rosso was mentioned by the king at all was 24 hours (give or take 1) before the deadline hit. Before that, he didn't seem to mind him (check his Post 349 for reference, where he said that he didn't have "any strong feelings" about anyone not discussed by him before. This was after Rosso had made his last contribution to the game, i.e. all his posts were available for review). When he was executed, his only real offense that I could agree with was "not getting his shit together" like he promised, but then again, the pro-town thing to do according to you would have been to ask for his prod, which I don't think anyone did (certainly not the king).

So, because Rosso was town, PJ

has

to be scum?

Which part of "judging by his actions, as opposed to his words" did you not understand? A scum-king can be as pro-town as he wants all day long without doing any harm to himself or his team. It's his execution which ultimately counts. Plus, I wouldn't put it behind PJ to fool me for a while, given his skills at playing this game.

See above line.

Way to not read what I said. I vote PJ because his reign as a whole is more in line with that of a scum-king in my opinion, not because I'm "leaving everything else he's posted" out. Again, I have to ask you: Is it scummy to reevalute someone I found pro-town before with the added knowledge of how the execution went down?

I think PJ was just under a lot of pressure, from the deadline and from himself, and that made him screw up.

Again, you don't seem to grasp what really went down. SC said PJ made a good execution

while at the same time saying that he didn't understand why Rosso was executed at all

. How can it be a good execution if you don't understand why it happened in the first place?

I can't comment on what SC said, since it was lost in the crash, before I got in this game, but it seems like a weak case altogether.

And while we're on the subject of "damning someone for one post", I believe that's what you're trying to do to me right now. Just thougt I'd point that out.

The difference is that I've looked at all your other posts and found nothing in there that speaks for you.

Ubertimmy and bird1111 were the most extreme lurkers on D1 in my opinion. I can't afford to vote every single lurker in the game, because that would render my votes completely useless.

What made your vote on ubertimmy useful, exactly?

Newsflash for you, champ. The king

has

to make all the work for me. The only thing

I

can do is point out who I think is scummy and hope for a pro-town king to make the right decision. I find your accusation that doing this is scummy absolutely ludicrous.

You can make cases against whoever you want to. If they are good, the King will consider them and listen to you.

[Zindaras]

1.) What are your reasons for thinking Bird1111 is town? I don’t really see an explanation I can grasp (although I am going to take a ‘wild’ guess that MBL’s nut-kicking theory on Bird1111 is your motivating factor).

That and the fact that most of the votes on and by him were cast by people I feel are scummy.

2.) It could be the case that I am just continually not seeing the Yos2 “case”, but could you go into more detail on why you think Yos2 is so scummy? If you could try to tailor comments towards my analysis of Yos2 found here, that would be appreciated (and

yes

, I have read your post 780

and

Glork’s post 783).

Well, just go and continue reading the debate between Yos and me, I daresay, but the original reasoning is explained in Post 771:

Another interesting case. I had three scum vibes from him, from Posts 189, 376 and 426. He defended Mert and attacked MoS. He FoSed pablito. He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself). He voted Phoebus. Though Glork stated he thought Yos was pro-town Day 1, he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly. He voted Twomz and pablito.

I was suspicious of Yos all reread, and I'm happy to see others picked up on it, even though they did it much later than I did. I've played with Yos before in Reverse Mafia (Mini 370) and his play style seems to be different from that game (in which he was town). I definitely think he's scum.

Now, as for your post.

K... just read through approximately D1, and I suppose Yos2 did not do very much

direct

scum-hunting. He has given some thoughts about game theory, which are at least helping to advance discussion. However, he did push quite a bit on Mastermind of Sin (and on sound reasoning, so far as I am concerned) which at least helped me to form my opinions on MoS. He also scolded cardb0ardb0x a couple times for his posts, although he did not press the issue very much. He poked once at ShadowLurker, Pablito, and slightly Phoebus during D1.

I suppose Yos2 seems like he was playing slightly "safe" (i.e. trying to not to get into debates unless he could handily hold his own, and not being overly provacative), but I would frankly have to review games with Yos2 in order to decide whether or not this is consistent with his normal style (and whether or not I would hence expect that of him), so I am going to find the original Kingmaker (I can't think offhand of another game I've played with Yos2)...

In the original on D1, Yos2 again made a lot of theoretical comments (so I do expect that much). In that game, he narrowed pretty quickly down onto RandomActs after he had claimed Townie (seems like Yos2 might have a thing for D1 targets in particular: RandomActs in KM1, MoS in KM2). He asked a few questions to a few people without pressing the envelop too far. He also voted and confirm-voted Broomhead, which admittedly was actual direct scumhunting (which also pointed to scum), and was well-reasoned.

Comparing the two games, I would say that Yos2's behavior overall is not overly inconsistent. I would also say that (at least early in games) he is rather conservative with his vote(s), so him doing the same in this game is not a problem for me. Yos2 seems to traditionally ask questions generally and comment on current discussions, while only going after one or two people at a time, which is also consistent with this game.

Discussion catches scum in general, however, and I didn't find any of Yos2's posts very scummy (if at all) or contradictory. So, I still think Yos2 is town, although I agree I would have liked to see him present more direct cases.

As you said, he is lacking in the direct scumhunting department. He hasn't presented any great cases, he hasn't added much. My comparison is with Reverse Mafia, and I'm not liking it.

3.) I actually want you to read MBL’s posts again. I don’t like his play-style either (and I have told him as much before), but he does manage to draw lots of reactions from many people, and oftentimes, it’s pretty clear that’s his intent. Do you think he is

scum

, or just

scummy

?

I'll see if I can get around to it, but I honestly think he's scum.

[Zindaras]

Sorry for quintiple posting (this really should've been in the last post). If anyone thinks I should put my big responses all together in one post, please say so and I'll do it that way (even though it'd make for a couple of massive posts).

Glork, I'm inclined to trust you on the Zindaras thing. I guess being kissed up to doesn't ping your scumdar like it does mine. The fact that the guy entered the game and posted War and Peace doesn't hurt his credentials either.

What's the last line supposed to mean?

[Zindaras]

I think my focus is broad enough. I'm focusing mainly on 5 guys, but I've expressed suspicions regarding others, and the one I want executed currently is the one who is the most useless of the bunch, if he's town.

[Zindaras]

No, he didn't say he wouldn't contribute, and I was never trying to imply that he did. You're trying to take my words out of context here by deleating the part of your post that I was responding to, and as you took the effort of quoting the post and then deleating your words.

The post of yours that I was responding to was this:

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I would have voted for them.

There's a huge difference between not posting and not voting. You can not vote and still contribute. You can't not post and still contribute. If someone announces they will not vote, does that make them scummier than someone who simply doesn't post?

I didn't attack MoS for being a "non-contributor", and that's not true anyway; one of the main reasons I supported a Phobus lynch over the other options PJ offered yesterday was because of lack of useful contrabution on his part.

This is the relevant quote, from Post 189:

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

Not contributing to finding scum-->Attack.

What's your point? I was trying to answer the King's question by giving quick opinions on all the people he had on his LOE, so I did a quick re-read of their posts and posted some thoughts; yes, I didn't go into a lot of detail, but it was more of a response then anyone else was giving at the time. Later, I did some more reading on the suspects, and decided that I was in favor of a Phoebus execution.

What could the King do with your opinions? They were pretty much all "Well, he could be scum, and he could be town."

Someone else said the king should pressure lurkers, and I agreed. Is there something wrong with that?

Yeah, you should do your own work.

#1 is a circular argument; you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking Phoebus, who you think is pro-town, and you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking him. It's an especally bad argument as I know you're wrong about me, a possibility you have apparently not even considered.

I have considered the possibility. I'll make sure to look very long and hard at Phoebus if the people I currently suspect to be scum suddenly turn up town.

Like I said to MBL, I'm not so stubborn as to believe I can't be wrong. Which is why I'm currently most supporting of a Mert lynch, since he's the most useless of the people on my suspect list, if he's Town.

Your second argument is basically "I think he's town because MOS thinks he's town", which makes me wonder if you're trying to hide behind MOS on this one; if Phoebus turns out to be scum, you can always just blame MOS.

Nah, I know that if Phoebus dies right now and turns up scum, I'll be looked at with more suspicion. I've put him as Town now, though that is not impossible to change.

And now you're hiding behind Glork.

I can restate his points, but I doubt there is much use to that.

Anyway, Glork really needs to post his opinions regarding the happenings lately.

[Zindaras]

By the way, it would be nice if our Mod could give out a mass prod to everyone who hasn't posted post-crash yet.

[Zindaras]

No, not at all. Notice, though, that I first attacked MOS for that comment back on september 15, only one day after the game started, which is a little too early to go lurker-hunting.

Ah, yes, but you know that there will be lurkers, eventually. So why attack someone over just making a minor non-contribution, when you know there'll be people who are contributing even less later on? (And you don't even do it)

Right. I was saying that his playstyle of refusing to vote for anyone was not going to help the town find scum; votes are how we make connections between people. So yes, i was attacking him for that. If a person says they're going to act in a way that I think is not helpful to the town, of course I'm going to attack him for it.

Why would votes be the only thing we use for connections? By doing that, you miss, I think, 80% or so of the connections.

Well, that re-read and the thoughts I put down in that post helped me figure out that I wanted Phoebus executed. I don't know if they helped anyone else form an opinion or not.

You were supposed to be helping the king.

Basically, the only real point you're attacking me with here that makes any sense at all is that you're basically saying I should have tried harder to hunt lurkers on day 1. Which is fair enough; I did use certain people's lack of participation in order to help draw conclusions about them, but I never really activally lurker hunted the way I sometimes do. However, that could also be said of most of the people in the town, very few people spent a lot of time lurker hunting on day 1.

I find it odd that you attack MoS for not contributing and let all the lurkers lay low.

[Zindaras]

Just kill someone already

Yos asked you a question. Answer it.

Hey Glork, are you not reading the thread or do you just not want to execute a scumbuddy?

[Zindaras]

I'm here-ish. We're starting final exams soon, so my posting will be significantly diminished over the next two weeks or so.

Oh, okay, I didn't know that.

[Zindaras]

I've recently become very suspicious of Zindaras. It's the way he entered. In some way I want to think that Zindaras did not want to do a total person-by-person analysis when he came into the game. I think that he felt compelled to do it because Luckay Luck did so.

*laughs*

So what you're saying is that I read the thread, then when I got to the point where LuckayLuck posted her analysis, I went back and made another re-read, this time for a Player-by-Player Analysis? Or what are you really insinuating? I'm known for making analyses like this.

I don't get a healthy feeling when I see Zindaras posts, they feel more aggressive and they extremely lack restraint. Zindaras seems to be more focused on the offensive when he has no need to do so. It just seems very awkward and I don't get why he'd be attacking so early off of just replacing in.

Use the "View all posts by user" feature and look at MBL, CTD and Yos's posts in this thread. Then come back and see why I play like I do. As for overaggression, that's part of my playstyle.

Maybe he's trying to avoid being Rosso by continuing with pressuring others (what Rosso failed to do) or that he's trying to protect his scum buds. But there's a strong difference between Luckay Luck and Zindaras, and I don't get where Zindaras is coming from. Maybe I'm biased because they have polar opinions on me.

Or maybe Luckay's playstyle and mine just aren't the same, which is why you're getting entirely different posts.


I've enjoyed the debates I've had so far, and they changed my outlook on the game quite a bit. Which is why I'm gunning mostly for Mert, currently.

[Zindaras]

Zind, I don't really care to respond to your latest post.

Why not?

I do agree with your lurker thing, by the way. That's why I asked for a mass prod.

Is our mod even here?

[Zindaras]

Yeah, but I'm also trying to go beyond the mass prod. Once they come back, we can't let them slide back into oblivion. Chances are people will be prodded, respond "hey, I'm up for a MBL lynch and here's why: X Y Z" and no one will bother to say much else. I'm glad that Yos put up his two questions though because #2 will force people to focus on who their suspicions are instead of focusing on Glork's apparent lame-duck LoE. I'd prefer to not see anyone executed until we see a majority of answers on who people would place on their own LoE. Because it's way too easy to let everything slide right now because of the lag.

:goodposting:

I have to admit Yos's questions are very good. Everyone should answer them. In fact, I'll go ahead and

Vote: Phoebus

and say that I'll be voting everyone who posts (content) and doesn't answer his questions.

[Zindaras]

Kill anyone. I don't care.

Well, at least it's an answer...

I am almost tempted to volunteer to put myself out of my misery but given that the fag end of this day has spanned two interruptions, I'd decided that I would contribute something on the next game day. If that is acceptable, that would be great because I'm not someone who opts out of a game for trivial reasons.
Currently, however, I just can't be arsed.
Tomorrow - after more results. Sure.

If you or any other players have a problem with this, or if the mod is concerned with this sort of attitude for the remainder of today, please do what you seem fit.

I don't like it at all, but I'm not against letting it slide. I will be pushing for executing you tomorrow if you don't contribute, though.

Zindaras: Rot op!

Ik hou ook van jou.

cardb0ardb0x
CrashTextDummie
Dead Rikimaru
Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)
Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)
PookyTheMagicalBear
StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)
Twomz
UberTimmy

That's the list of people who haven't posted yet post-crash We need prods on these guys. Are they even posting? There are two others:

Mert (has promised to get back into the game, but has not contributed content)
spectrumvoid (unless I'm missing something, she hasn't answered Yos's questions yet)

[Zindaras]

EBWOP:

Unvote: Phoebus

I forgot to do that.

[Zindaras]

*laughs*

That joke was worthy.

[Zindaras]

Wasn't Mert on the LoE as well? If he's not, he really should be.

[Zindaras]

Oh and to respond to Zindaras about the player-by-player analysis. The reason I was questioning it was because it seemed so delayed and you were bothered by the homework assignment you were not given more than the player-by-player analysis. It wasn’t until later that you showed that you were going to do it. I don’t care if you do it in other games, but in this one, it did not seem apparent from your entry into the game that it was going to happen. That’s what tipped me off on that position.

Well, I can't really defend myself against that. Only that, well, Glork only said it would be nice if I could do a stream-of-consciousness post (and never asked me to give opinions on every player).

To be honest, the main reason why I made the big post was because, well, PJ kinda inspired me to. It appeared that the original Kingmaker was famous for some great playing, and I fantasized (as PJ did, according to him) about catching all the scum in one fell swoop.

[Zindaras]

placing my vote = bringing it to the King's attention

What's so hard to understand about that?

Just like in a normal game, there's more to a lynch than just a vote.

I don't need to have an extensive case on someone in order to voice my suspicion on them.

Yeah, but if you want to get anywhere, it helps a whole lot.

I appreciate your little fantasy about catching all the scum in one fellow swoop, but it's too ambitious for your own good. I can tell that you're wrong about at least one of the the trees you're barking up on. Right now I think you're barking up on the wrong entire forest.

Meh. I've done it before. I'll admit I have toned down my expectations somewhat, mainly because of a similar analysis that turned out to be completely wrong on basically everyone (though it was Day 1, with considerably less players and considerably fewer posts). Which is exactly why I want Mert executed.

It would take a colossal blunder from someone like PJ for me to nail him on Day 2 of a mountainous game. What he did was not damning, but it was enough for me to be suspicious of him at the beginning of Day 2, and I voted accordingly, in a post that was longer and more thorough than the one you keep referencing, I assure you. It was lost in the crash, so I reposted a condensed version of it. Tell me what's scummy about that.

How the hell am I supposed to know that? It's not exactly obvious from the thread that this thread contained so many awesome reasonings.

3/4 of the players in this game are not doing what you're asking of me. Why exactly do you single me out?

Because I know you can do better.

Please go back and look at Rosso's posts and tell me he deserved to be lynched over them. He's generally not the easiest fellow to read, but at the very least, he wasn't giving off bad vibes. At worst, you could say he was typical Rosso, which rarely tells you anything about his allignment.

PJ knows Rosso. I really can't picture pro-town PJ going over his posts at the last minute and thinking that he's more deserving of an execution than any other player in the game.

I know naught of Rosso's playstyle (never played with him in a game, as far as my memory goes), but, yes, I did find his silly entrance in the game and his subsequent disappearance scummy, or at least odd.

That's just lovely. You can't comment on what SC said (which is quite correct), but for some reason you insist that me picking up on it is hugely scummy.

What I understand from Post 557 is that you voted SC for one post, which was lost, in which he contradicted himself. That seems a bit over-the-top.

I'm sure you went over the abundance of posts that speak for StallingChamp while you were at it. I have to say, Zindaras, you're exhibiting some extreme double standards in this game.

Yes, I have. I put opinions about all players in my analysis.

You're awfully fond of ubertimmy, aren't you? If my votes weren't "useful" in your opinion, I'm sure you'll agree that they weren't harmful either, correct?

If ubertimmy is town (something I do not find unlikely), then your vote could easily have been the beginning of a wagon.

I don't consider it my job to make perfect cases so that the king may pick off all the scum one by one, because I'm not dilusional. I'm trying to contribute as best as I can and I will continue to point out what I believe to be scummy actions or players along the way, whether you like it or not.

I'm not seeing too much actual contribution from you. The only thing you've pointed out since Post 557 is a possible link between pablito and PJ.

You missed the part in Yos's post where he says he knows enough about where I stand on certain players. You also missed my somewhat reorganised PBPA. I think I've aired enough of my views.

Yup, I missed something.

[Zindaras]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

[Zindaras]

Truth
I tend to start adjusting after I actually get a feel for everybody. (Need to see more of Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz, and UberTimmy). I have no doubt that some mafia lie in my townie list, but I strongly doubt they are in the 9.5 and moderately doubt they are in the 9 list.

All I can really say is that you can't execute Pooky because he's just inactive (also in several other games, must have suddenly had something come up). And the MBL/Yos/Zind execution list make me twitch. I think it needs a radical change.

At this moment in time, if there was an execution, I would want it to be Mert. But while this day is dragging out, I still think it's super-important to have those "inactives" (or their replacements) post more.

I'm not saying it's scummy or anything, I just find it a bit odd.

Though I do agree that Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz and timmy need to contribute more.

Twomz has been posting in other games, if I'm correct. Why not here?

[Zindaras]

I don't think bird's play in this game is at all comparable to bird's play in Space Monkey Mafia.

[Zindaras]

*does a re-read on bird's posts*

bird's play in Space Monkey was voting someone, then trying to slip off the wagon without drawing attention. Looking at his posts early on, they're not completely uncomparable.

I'll admit his Day 1 behaviour is comparable, but I'm not sure if it actually says anything about his alignment.

[Zindaras]

Glorky's in exam time, if I remember correctly, and those last for the remainder of the week (again, if I'm correct). I don't think he'll be making a decision during that time, and it wouldn't be wise of him if he does so.

We're also missing a lot of players. I think we could use some replacements. And I'd like to give Ozymandius a chance to read up on the game.

[Zindaras]

What I understand from Post 557 is that you voted SC for one post, which was lost, in which he contradicted himself. That seems a bit over-the-top.

Would you agree that contradicting yourself is scummy?

Depending on the contradiction, yes or no. There are contradictions I don't find scummy, and some that I do.

If I started a bandwagon, then your good buddy PJ jumped on it. Any thought on that?

The fact that it didn't develop into a full-fledged 'wagon doesn't mean it couldn't do that.

You failed to adress the one thing I was most interested in, Zindaras:

You have made it perfectly clear by now that you don't agree with any of my votes, I get it. But I still haven't seen an argument for why they are scummy.

Thank you.

I have addressed this. I think your votes are scummy because they're on people I think are town and because you seem happy with not following up on your suspicions when they're ignored.


As for the replacement thing: I'll see if I can get someone in this game.

[Zindaras]

I'd be interested in knowing what constitutes a non-scummy contradiction in your book.

Contradictions of opinions. You can shift opinions on people and contradict yourself in that way. The only contradictions I find truly damning are contradictions in roleclaims.

What's the difference between me voting ubertimmy and PJ voting ubertimmy? Why does it make me scummy but not PJ?

It is a point against PJ, but I think there are other points that speak for PJ.

You think StallingChamp is town because I attacked him and you think I'm scum because I attacked StallingChamp.

Circular logic. I'm not impressed.

Most of my opinions were based mainly on gut. You have to factor in the fact that we're on Day 2, and we only have 2 dead people, neither of which was particularly productive.

Yeah, I thought you were scummy and SC was towny. But those opinions could easily change as people die.

I'm not so convinced about you anymore. Personally, I would still like to see a Mert lynch, though it's pretty much waiting right now.

Trying to get replacements, but not succeeding.

[Zindaras]

Mert's AWOL.

I'm pretty sure of that. He hasn't posted in over a week.

[Zindaras]

bird announced his departure as well. This is what he posted on December 8th, in Newbie 275 (a game I just replaced in, so that's why I didn't notice this before):

As much as I hate to do this, I'm going to have to request replacement in this game, as I never got around to rereading this game, and now I'll have limited access this weekend/next week, and a 10 day vacation w/o internet soon after

[Zindaras]

omg Pooky got nutkicked!

(yes, this is a joke)

I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of that analysis, Pooky.

[Zindaras]

But it sure as hell helps.

We've gotten a few replacements (in the Kingmaker thread), and some inactives are picking up too, apparently. I'm happy with that and look forward to their insights.

@ Mert: What do you think of Bird1111, Phoebus, and cardb0ardb0x?

Won't work. He's gone from the site.

I don't believe I've done this yet, so

Unvote: everyone but Mert

.

[Zindaras]

*huggles Glork*

[Zindaras]

1) No doc. I don't think it's a good strategy for the Kingmaker to just come out and claim. This basically means that we're going to doom a random player to death every day. It's possible, but it seems a bit...odd. I'm not Professor Mafia, though, so my theory may be off.

2) I think because we don't want to let the Mafia pick off the King targets. For example, if we decide that either X or Y should be king, and one of them is scum, the other's going to die.

I'm not sure, though. I can see a combination of 1 and 2 working out. If we have the Kingmaker claim, the Mafia will kill him. We'll get a new Kingmaker, he'll claim. This way, the Mafia can't go around killing off the best players. Which also gives us the opportunity to talk more freely about who we think should be King.

I could be horribly wrong though.

[Zindaras]

It just feels a bit...wrong, to be honest. It really should be the King making the decisions.

[Zindaras]

I'd be disappointed with a Pooky execution, personally.

[Zindaras]

It's definitely lobbying. Look, everyone has a different playstyle. I'd love to be King, but I'm not going to say how totally radical and controversial I'd be.

There is no reason to go and point it out. I don't think we should be making the Kingmaker's decisions for him.

[Zindaras]

I've Got My Eye On You.

[Zindaras]

Yeah, that's an annoying thing to get used to.

By the way, this is a great tool for taking a look at a specific player's posts in thread. It's a great tool.

I wanted to post this in the morning, but I forgot a bit. I don't think Pooky is a good execution. I've already expressed my suspicions regarding Yos, so I'd like to go with him for today.

Unvote: Mert, Vote: Yosarian2

.

Pooky and Phoebus

must

contribute tomorrow though. Same goes for the others who said that they would.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Stupid CTD jumping in and posting stuff I don't see because I don't preview edit. I was aiming those things at Scope.

CTD, if you had to pick Pooks or Yos, who'd you execute? I know you don't think either is scum, but who do you think is townier?

[Zindaras]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I don't know what you were trying to link zindie, but I arrived on page [/quote]

You type in the member number in the ####-part in the link. For example, if you'd want to find all your posts, you'd fill in 3128.

[Zindaras]

Also, Kaleidoscope is very clearly town.

Elaborate? I notice you didn't say anything about bird in your first post. Also, he's voting you.

[Zindaras]

There are few players who can honestly say that they pursued a path but failed to convince the king...MBL is the obvious example I suppose.

One of the guys you're voting did just that.

[Zindaras]

I think I'm going over your posts again some time today, because I'm not liking them.

[Zindaras]

Mind elaborating, MBL?

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I can see the reason behind MoS (though I'd still like you to state your personal reason) but I can't see why Lowell deserves a vote.

[Zindaras]

Lowell replaced cbox.

[Zindaras]

Vote: pablito

Gut's telling me he's scum.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, if you're going to bother to vote me at this time of the day of all times possible, please explain why you decided to vote now. You don't need to explain your case (because you did bother to give a reason - it's "gut" and I respect it) - but in the absence of posts of mine between your last post and this current one...that means you probably did a re-read. Then I have to ask why would you do a re-read on me this close to deadline - and why you wouldn't have done one on anyone else. Or maybe you did, but you're not disclosing this information. Or maybe you didn't do a re-read, then I have to wonder why you chose to vote at this moment rather than a previous one when you had a chance to do so - and even hinted at it.

Post 1063.

Your vote is clearly motivated to send a message, and instead of just jabbing and hiding your reasons for this vote for tomorrow - when you'll probably bring out your big guns, I just want your motivation stated now. That's it.

As I said, gut. I don't like the way you pushed for a Rosso execution yesterday. I don't like the way you've been casting votes and generally have been playing so far.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP:

When did my membership in the "I love Glork" gang get revoked?

Mind finishing your analysis, like you promised?

[Zindaras]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]And what's with the "dead king"? Does that mean MBL was going to be crowned if he didn't die? (it seems the most logical reason).[/quote]

Dead

Rikimaru is King.

Vote: Yosarian2

Scum.

I'm utterly flabbergasted by the choice for Riki, though.

[Zindaras]

Dear King Dead Rikimaru,

You should execute Yosarian2 today.

XOXO,
Glork

This man speaks wise words of wiseness.

[Zindaras]

Mert's gone from the site, Nightfall's doing the same in a Newbie I'm in with him, so I suspect he has something as wll.

[Zindaras]

This is the first game I ever played with Pooky, which is probably the explanation for my faulty read. I saw Pooky's analysis post as a town tell, not a scum tell.

[Zindaras]

I thought it was a town tell, but I guess I should stop using this as a town tell.

[Zindaras]

Making big huge posts does not make someone more likely to be town. In some instances, it makes it easier to tell if they're lying (there are more opportunities for them to slip up), but bad guys can spew crap just as much as good guys can argue their stance.

It wasn't as much as the big post thing. I do that all the time as scum. What I was mostly surprised is that Pooky posted opinions, something I try profusely to avoid as scum. Overall, the posts just gave me a town vibe (though that was somewhat lessened when he didn't finish his list as promised).

[Zindaras]

Zindaras (reference post 1154): Quit using meta-gaming as an excuse for not getting Pooky. Your defense for thinking pooky's long post is town is meta-gamish. (As in, you don't know his playstyle because you've never played with him before.) Meta-gaming is too unreliable.

That's the way I roll, voidybuns. I play very much based on earlier experiences with players. For example, MBL. In Mini 379, I was 100% sure he was town (I believe I even posted that in the thread). When he turned out to be scum, I used this knowledge to reassess my opinion of him in Mini 372, wherein I became sure he was scum, which he was (unfortunately, the game got abandoned before it got to play out).

It's all a matter of gut. My gut doesn't fail me a lot. I've played in loads of games with Glorky, up to the point that whenever I get a solid read on him, I've got a huge chance of my read being correct (in fact, I've got a 100% success rate on him). With people like MBL, it's important to play more games with him, to get more of a feel for his playstyle.

I didn't have a feel for Pooky's playstyle, so I interpreted his posts as a wrong tell.

[Zindaras]

Yos, voidygal and Phoebus (assuming Phoebus's activity continues like this).

I promise I'll elaborate more in the future. I've been letting this game down, I'm afraid.

[Zindaras]

Has Phoebus even posted today?

Vote: Phoebus

until he does.

I really need to get back to playing this game. *sighs*

[Zindaras]

I'm finally getting around to reading this game again. I hope to have have caught up to it by this weekend.

[Zindaras]

I'm really really sorry and feel really really guilty about continued non-assistance in this game.

*sad*

[Zindaras]

Yeah, Brian does appear to be gone.

Hello everyone again, I'm afraid it'll take me a while before I get to reread again, but at least I'll attempt to follow the game.

[Zindaras]

Cats make good kings too.

I'd be like "Meow" and the Assassins'd go like "Awwww, what a cute kitty. We can't kill something that cute!" and then I'd go like "SLASH DIE DIE" and then we'd all live happily ever after except the Assassins but who cares about the Assassins anyway?

[Zindaras]

Kittens...for breakfast?

How mean!

[Zindaras]

Yeah, it's some pretty awesome irony.

[Zindaras]

Restart? Maybe.

Quesy needs to get back first though.

[Zindaras]

Der Hammer's still hosting his Safari Mini.

For future reference, Kingmaker, well, it needs to be spiced up more. The original setup had too many confirmable roles, this is too close to Mountainous, and with the addition of, well, most players being essentially useless due to the whole "Voting doesn't really matter" thing, it gets a bit sucky.

So you either need to reduce the amount of players or up the role count. Make game-specific roles or something.

That's how I view it.

[Zindaras]

Smashy, I demand you smash someone.

Who were my suspicions again? I remember saying voidybuns was scum.

So we should probably kill her.

[Zindaras]

Going purely on gut right now, I'd say voidybuns is the best execution.

[Zindaras]

Where can I buy Glork-in-a-can?

Glork coming up as town wasn't completely unexpected, luckily.

[Zindaras]

Vote: mnowax, spectrumvoid

.

I want to see either of them die.

[Zindaras]

It's a while ago, Mossy, but I think I outlined pretty well why I suspected voidybuns when I came into the game.

[Zindaras]

Could the people voting me (barring Fritz) explain why they are voting me?

[Zindaras]

I am back in the game. Not hardcore, no. But I don't think I'll reread this game. I have enough problems motivating myself as is.

[Zindaras]

Let me put it this way: I can't motivate myself to do a whole lot of things for Mafia at the moment. Don't know why, maybe it's a lack of sleep (which I do intend to remedy over the course of the week or something). Regardless, in the frame of not rereading the thread, I will play to the best of my abilities. Just like I did in Two-Headed Mafia 2 (and, well, I

was

right about Glork in that one.

[Zindaras]

No, I said he was scum before he confessed, actually (and before voidybuns claimed he was scum).

[Zindaras]

MoS: No. I don't think that he is scum, looking at what he has done. I think the whole no voting thing is blown out of proportion.
VitaminR: Phoebus promised posts. Phoebus did not deliver. Zindie doesn't like that. He'd be a reasonable execution.
Voidybuns: Yes. Definitely.
Smashy: Fifty-fifty. I liked DR at the beginning of his reign, but I hated Smashy's execution.
Mnowax: Good execution.
Zindaras: Likes kittens. Is therefore town.

[Zindaras]

Geh. Is it normal for people not to post in over a week?
Zindaras- last post March 22
Lowell- Last post March 22
Fritzler- Last post March 23

It's somewhat frustrating now. Especially as Zindaras was going to be the next one I perssure.

Go ahead and pressure me. I read, I comment wherever I have something to comment.

I agree completely with PJ's assessment of Vitty and MoS. I still believe in mnowax and voidybuns executions.

[Zindaras]

Right away, I get the fawning vibe from SV in her posts.

I really don't think that says anything, you know. Voidybuns is like that.

For the rest, I agree with your analysis of voidybuns, especially the comparison to Stikey-scum in Mountainous. I've noticed scum likes to do that as well. I like to call it an OMGUR (Oh my god you rock) reaction.

[Zindaras]

Interesting king choice, especially since Skruffs' predecessor was just about to pressure Zindie before he disappeared and had to be replaced...

Pfft. The reasoning for his choice is obvious.

Zindie, please kill the new mnowax.

Why?

I'm sure people will be happy to know that I already have an LoE, I already have a reasonable idea of who I'm going to execute, and that I'm going to try to devote what little time I have to this game.

[Zindaras]

Anyway, I'm done with my read, and it astounds me that more people aren't taking Mastermind of Sin to task for being Most Likely to Be Scum. In my notes, I have almost twice as many 'X's by his name as any other player, including and not limited to numerous actual use of WIFOM, several terrible arguments, and interaction between him and Pooky.

Vote: Mastermind of Sin.

He should be the lynchee for the day by a mile.

Could you quote/refer to the Pooky interactions?

[Zindaras]

@Zindaras: you mention you have a loe and a reasonable idea of who you're going to kill, but are you going to tell us who?

I don't want to influence others nor do I want to limit the options/discussions. The fact that I have an LoE doesn't mean it's set in stone. You could call it preliminary.

[Zindaras]

Jelly, you promised you'd put forth an analysis on me. Make it. Or I may begin to feel very much like mauling you.

As for who I'm looking at, I'm looking mostly at voidybuns (though I know she has problems now, which saddens me greatly), Yossy and Mossy. Maybe I'll take a closer look at the lurkers, too. I remember Fritzler being very pushy on CTD.

[Zindaras]

The most interesting thing about this is actually that when he had read 19 pages of the game, he says that Yos2 and Vaughn [Der Hammer] were most suspicious, but none of those 7 quotes were on either of those players. Of course, this may simply be because neither of those players had a specific post which jumped out, but I wouldn't mind this being explained.

I think (though I do not know) that I didn't have anything specific to comment on. Also, there's a faint memory of me having posts from the two but later removing them because answers/comments were asked.

Keeps different responses to different people... I'm fine with his response to CTD, and actually his 27th post gets straight town vibe for two reasons: all of his responses here a short and effective, and although I don't think that is townish in

itself

, when it is joined with his response to the comment of us 'getting no real information from Day One', Zindie immediately lists quite a few people who had taken stances on Rosso and vice versa – a very detailed response when he

needed

to be detailed – it just shows how on top of the game Zindie was at the time as well as the fact that he was using the information we had and was keeping it in mind.

*huggle* Thanks, that's nice of you to say.

I've actually noticed that Zindie says he finds Mert scummy a number of times in-thread, but doesn't have many posts about that (as opposed to having many posts concerning Yos2, MBL, CTD, and such – though this is probably because Mert wasn't posting very often if I remember correctly, so there was nothing for Zindie to respond to). I would like to know what Zindie currently thinks of Mert, and why.

Mert simply wasn't posting at all. My gut's telling me that RafK is scum, but I know, mostly from hearsay, that he's a sneaky bugger, so I have no idea how he plays as scum.

Posts drop off quite a by Day Three after the Pooky execution. Could be related, but I know Zindie has been having problems with participation for quite some time, and I also am willing to wager posting dropped for most people during Dead Rikimaru's reign anyways. Exceptionally small amount of posting from December up to now (early May).

I will admit that I was very very disappointed with the choice of Dead Rikimaru for King. I had hoped to be King myself. I think that's part of the reason this game lost its interest for me.

Interested in how a few of his suspicions morphed over time – he seems to be consistent with Yos2 and SV – but interested in what has happened with Mert, Phoebus, early Der Hammer [Vaughn], MoS and how they got where they are.

I'd been out of touch for a while. I forgot most of my more minor suspicions. Mert, now RafK, I like, as I said earlier. Phoebus is now VitaminR, who, now I stop to think about it, could be reminding me of his play in Space Monkeys, replacing for Nightson. Hammyboy's completely gone. MoS...did I ever say I thought MoS was scum? I need a total re-read on the guy. The problem is that most of the discussion about him that I've read was about his playstyle...

[Zindaras]

Oh, actually, scratch that. I was taking "I'm looking at X" to mean "I think these people are most suspicious", but looking more in context, I think it just means you have been

looking

at them.

I'm looking at Mossy because other people seem to think he's scum pretty badly, and I don't feel I should ignore that.

Any particular reason you're "looking at" me?

For one, it's still ye olde suspicion. For two, I am not particularly amused by the way your Kingship yesterday played out.



Cessy, Yossy, Mossy, RafK, I'd like you all to take some time to analyze Fritzler and VitaminR and report your findings.

ThAdmiral, Lowell, Mnowax, I'd like the three of you to make an analysis of my play this game.

Jelly, I want you to scratch my ear in the absence of my ear-scratcher.

Mod

, I'd like to know the status of Der Hammer, Fritzler, K-Scope, Voidybuns, Toaster Strudel and VitaminR.

[Zindaras]

Okay, voidybuns. It would be appreciated if you could solidify your position on Vitamin and elaborate on your suspicions regarding PJ.

[Zindaras]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Sorry for the lurking. Still here, supporting a Mnowax lynch. Also happy with a Fritz lynch.[/quote]

Do you realize that mnowax was killed yesterday and is now a new player?

[Zindaras]

Zindie's long weekend off is being taken away by other occurences. I have been following the game (though I haven't taken the time yet to read the whole MoS-Thesp debate).

I'll execute someone when I feel the game isn't advancing anymore.

[Zindaras]

Current LoE: voidybuns, VitaminR, Fritzler

.

Fritzler because I hate his lurking at the time and that whole CTD-thing. He's a bit of an oddball choice, especially because there are many other lurkers, but I think he's a possibility we should seriously consider. The more the game is going on, the better I'm feeling about a Vitty-execution. Voidybuns has also already been outlined.

[Zindaras]

Post 2203 made me feel it would be better to execute Riki after Vitty (if he's scum), if there is a link between the two of them. I guess it is a bit of an oversight, though.

*scratches head*

I'll think about adding him.

[Zindaras]

I do think, I just listed my three main suspects right now. Besides, my authority lies in my ability to maul people.

[Zindaras]

See the vote count - You and mnowax have 4 & 3 votes respectively, while Fritzler and VitaminR have 2 and 1 respectively. For a king who seems to be not participating very much in his own reign, I find it especially odd he glossed over some apparent will of the people without so much as a word.

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

[Zindaras]

Sorry about the lack of who was being quoted. My quote tags break whenever I include a name. In any case, I wasn't necessarily expecting responses from each of the people concerned. That was more for the benefit of the rest of the players, to know where I stand on recent events.

Put " " around the names.

This helps. Thanks!

You're welcome.

Why are you still side-stepping Mastermind of Sin?

I ain't side-stepping no one, dear Thesp. He isn't on my LoE, so I believe he's not a good execution. I believe that the huge amount of flak he got for his unorthodox playstyle in this game is an indicator of being town. Your case is reasonable, but I do not believe it makes him a better execution than others.

Why isn't he on there?

Because I don't believe he's a good execution. Also, for your information, I will not be coerced into executing anyone.

I thought the reason would be pretty obvious for me not getting into the arguments for who's to be lynched today...

I'm one of the execution-candidates. As such, I will obviously be saying the other 2 are scummy. So I don't see how my input will add much to the game.

Yuck. This looks scummity scummity scum to me. But, my dear voidybuns, you're not getting away this easily.

What amazes me, time and time again, is the value people place in the LoE. Essentially, an LoE is intangible, irrelevant. It says very very little. Now, voidybuns, all that your strategy accomplishes is that it makes you look even scummier because you look frightfully opportunistic.

[Zindaras]

forgive me for not taking this seriously

Hey Fritz. I love you.

Who's the play?

[Zindaras]

Hi kingycakes!

I disagree. I think that a LOE centres discussion. We still have a pretty large game going on. It's better to have discussion centred on a few people rather than a whole mass. This also increases incentive for people to share their opinions.

Oh yes, the LoE is a useful little thing. But I don't believe that it should dominate people's behaviour and make them do things they shouldn't do.

And it's not being opportunistic, it's common sense Well, I

could

say I'm scummier than the other 2, but then I'll be insane.

I'm not interested in who you want to die. I know who you want to die. I'm interested in who you think is scum.

[Zindaras]

I do not work under the assumption that someone is scum until that someone is actually found to be scum.

[Zindaras]

I think you've missed my point a bit. I was mostly saying that I don't think we should just ignore her and act like she's scum when she's not found to be scum already. We should at the very least just let her talk. Just going and saying she's scum and not letting her talk won't work.

Also, I don't assume everyone's town either. I just don't assume anything. Assuming anything automatically makes one's perceptions clouded.

When you think someone is scum, you can say that others are scummy by association with that first one. However, asides from stating them for future use, if you die, such feelings are useless, as they are not actually solid logic until the first player dies and is found to be scum.

[Zindaras]

Now I know why DGB irritates me so much...

Hmm?

Scope: No, I'm not going to kill Fritz, and no, I'm not going to hammer someone right now. The day is drawing to a close (and I'll be asking for claims pretty soon), but that's about it.

Remove Fritzler from LoE

.

[Zindaras]

I had a project I had to work on.

I don't follow you here. Why?

It's a really easy argument to make.

Essentially, an LoE is intangible, irrelevant.

Oh yes, the LoE is a useful little thing.

???

An LoE provides focus. Therefore, it is useful. However, it is an intangible thing. Like a concept (honour, justice) it has only the meaning we give to it. In pure game terms, an LoE says nothing.

I'd like Vitty and Voidybuns to claim. I'm getting to decision time.

Also,

slap in the face: Toaster Strudel

.

We probably would be at a lot less than 98 pages if everyone weren't whining about a bloody execution every day.

[Zindaras]

I'm trying to make up my mind. A Kingmaker claim would obviously help in that respect.

[Zindaras]

I'm trying to make up my mind. A Kingmaker claim would obviously help in that respect.

Ah...heh, I was wondering if you were checking to see if either one of them would claim hero.

I don't know what I'd do if I'd see a Hero claim.

[Zindaras]

I don't really see what's wrong with my kingship. Also, I don't understand why you're jumping to conclusions about my request for claims.

[Zindaras]

I don't really see what's wrong with my kingship. Also, I don't understand why you're jumping to conclusions about my request for claims.

Damn, I didn't think his kingship was

that

scummy until he made this post...

Gah, I'm missing the point in every sinngle post on this page.

I don't see the point in claims at all in this setup. If the Kingmaker dies, someone else becomes it again, and they'll always be town. The Hero is more of a wildcard that just kills the king. If the King was scum, great. Either way, the hero will almost certainly die that night for being confirmed town. Everyone else is scum or townie. So yeah, what's the point?

The Kingmaker is a confirmed townie. Why execute someone you know to be town? Sure, if you kill the Kingmaker, we'll just get a new one, but we'd still have wasted the execution.

[Zindaras]

Ah, that must be it, because I don't agree that a Kingmaker would've claimed by now. A claim is usually made when it becomes certain that you're going to be lynched if you don't. Something you can't be sure of in Kingmaker.

I'm sorry, voidybuns.

Maul: Spectrumvoid

Yes, a mauling means an execution.

[Zindaras]

Yarr!

I think Yossy and mnowax2 need to be looked at. After all, Voidybuns was under pressure under their rule but they executed others. I think yesterday's result makes them warrant a better looking at today.

[Zindaras]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Aye Zindie, I owe you one now [/quote]

^_^

I'm sure you'll even the scores.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras gets some brownie points for the SV execution, but there's a decent chance of a bussing here, mostly because SV wasn't Zindy's preferred target on the LOE originally and I do feel that SV became the execution out of sheer pressure from the town at large (not just me).

I never outlined my preference during my Kingship, so I don't know what you're getting that from. In fact, during Yossy's kingship, I revealed a strong preference for a voidybuns execution:

MoS: No. I don't think that he is scum, looking at what he has done. I think the whole no voting thing is blown out of proportion.
VitaminR: Phoebus promised posts. Phoebus did not deliver. Zindie doesn't like that. He'd be a reasonable execution.
Voidybuns: Yes. Definitely.
Smashy: Fifty-fifty. I liked DR at the beginning of his reign, but I hated Smashy's execution.
Mnowax: Good execution.
Zindaras: Likes kittens. Is therefore town.

I agree completely with PJ's assessment of Vitty and MoS. I still believe in mnowax and voidybuns executions.

All in all, saying I executed Voidybuns simply because the town told me to is bull. Absolute bull.

[Zindaras]

I think it's a bit odd that all the reactions to Jelly's 2394 are defensive reactions, not opinions about them. Surely the posts he quotes are interesting to say the least? The links between Vitamin, Yossy, Mnowax2, ThAdmiral, KScope and Voidybuns are worth checking out more.

[Zindaras]

Why would you conclude that she's distancing herself from Fritz? That looks an awful lot like backwards reasoning from where I'm looking at it. You say Fritz is scum, so Voidybuns was distancing herself from Fritz. In my opinion, the most logical thing to remark is that Voidybuns is defending Vitty.

[Zindaras]

The key point there is "during Yos' kingship", e.g. "when it wasn't your call" (and Yos wasn't in favour of an SV execution- whether or not he's scum himself, this is so- so it would be the perfect time to distance yourself from SV if you were so incline).

Sure, sure, but my voidybuns-execution was in correspondence with my earlier behaviour and opinions regarding her, so it can hardly be said that I executed her because the town told me to.

HOWEVER, I'm withdrawing from this one a little bit because I misread you in two places. When you brought out your LOE you seemed to focus more on Fritz and VR and leave arguments about SV as an afterthought, and then I'd noticed you vote for Fritzler and VR but not SV- however, I see now that you were doing that to make a point about voting, which I must have glossed over the first time, and when you said about SV that you'd given your arguments earlier, this was true- it was just that t was mostly a few months ago in real time, on a previous day

Exactly.

Glossing over Voidy's posts:

-Attack on cbox. Votes in her third post.
-FoSes Amelia and Vaughn in her third post.
-Votes Phoebus in her fourth post.
-Phoebus scummy.
-PJ pro-town.
-Glork irritating.
-Unvotes box in 20, votes pablito in the same. "No read" on CDB/bird.
-Unvotes pablito in 22.
-Prefers Phoebus over bird.
-Attack on MoS.
-Uncertain on bird.
-Votes SC and ubertimmy in 30.
-Defends Yos and votes Glork in 33.
-Unvotes Glork in 34.
-I see more links with bird in 42.
-More Yosdefense and pabsattack in her big post.
-Really wants Phoebus to die, see 51.
-Phoebus must die... *yawn*
-Doesn't want Yos or Pooky to be executed (55).
-Votes Glork in 59. (this is Day Three, after Glork executed Pooky)
-Sudden flip-flop on Yos, seems to push for Yos as a lynch.
-Doesn't get the case on MoS.

Odd here, a flip-flop. Yos and Glork are her major targets here, while she was voting Phoebus throughout most of the game and defending Yos.

-Removes Glork from personal LoE.
-Can see a MoS-execution now that she believes Glork is town.
-CTD is second.
-Attacks RafK in 106.
-Votes Smashy and MoS in 123. Odd argument for voting Smashy, needs to be looked at.
-Wants MoS or Smashy dead, but not VitaminR.
-Wants to see Smashy go.
-Doesn't like CTD (136).
-Votes MoS in 145.
-Would prefer Fritz over MoS (147).
-Votes Fritz and MoS in 148.


That's pretty much it. A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on. Her behaviour regarding Phoebus is very odd as well, going from needs to die to should live. There's also a flip-flop on Glork, which may have something to do with no one following her in trying to get Glork killed and a flip-flop on MoS, where she says she doesn't get his case at first but then votes him later on and keeps trying to get him killed. Doesn't like Fritz either, but at that point, I think her posting was fairly irrelevant, so that could be just plain ol' distancing.

[Zindaras]

Vote: Yossy

At the moment, I believe he is the best lynch for today.

PJ, do some more stuff.

[Zindaras]

I demand PJ makes a list of people and makes everyone take a stance on those people.

[Zindaras]

Newsflash:

I'm

the King, not you. It's only been D6 for like two or three real life days. I'm going not going to make a list of people (basically a LoE) until I've given the game a reread with the newest information. You don't get to make any "demands" of me - or at least none you can expect me to take seriously. I didn't let people push me around on D1, and it's not going to happen today either.

I felt you hadn't done enough for then. You're posting some nice things, but that's mainly between you and a couple of others. I think you should make others post something, because all you're doing now is focusing on your own execution, which isn't going to help us tomorrow and the days after. We need some more input from other people.

You've voting for me based on this, Zind?

A quick run-down of what Voidybuns has posted regarding others. A few very interesting things. Massive switches on Vitamin/Phoebus and Yosarian. First defends Yosarian, then attacks him. Seems a bit like bussing, especially because Yos vanishes from her suspicion list later on.

You could only view that as "bussing" if you had already decided that me and SV were scum. Viewed objectivly, a more likely interpretation would be "Sv was tryign to buddy up with Yos until Yos looked like he might get lynched, then she tried to lynch him", which is very common behavior for a scum trying to manipulate a good guy until he's no longer useful to her.

Nono. For one, there's the good ol' suspicion from my first analysis of the game. For two, there's your period as King, which wasn't horrible, but still, the point is that you didn't execute Voidybuns. For three, there's that.

So that's basically it.

[Zindaras]

Basically, it comes down to Zindy's reign as King. Specificially: Is there anything to suggest he was bussing a scumbuddy?

I think it's narrow-minded to only analyze my execution and relationship with Voidybuns.

[Zindaras]

Is it narrowminded to think you're innocent?

Be honest. I'm trying to learn.

There's a difference between broad-mindedness and rightness. Your conclusion may be right, but that doesn't mean that your ways were right.

Let me put forth a hypothetical situation:

It's Day 3. Player A claims Player B is town because of his Day 2 behaviour. Player C points out scummy things Player B has done on Days 1 and 3. Player B is lynched, and comes up Mafia.

In this case, Player A will argue that he did not look at Days 1 and 3, and that he therefore failed to see Player B's scumminess, therefore attempting to do off his defense of Player B as a mistake.

Player A is likely Player B's scumbuddy.

Of course, that situation is irrelevant, as I'm town, but an alternate situation is still possible: you're saying I'm town now, but the fact that you focus on only part of my behaviour means that if someone else posts a case against me based on behaviour from other days, you can simply go along even though here and now you're saying I'm town, because you never analyzed the rest.

I believe the point of this little exercise was to make people fortify their positions on other people. A wall ten feet thick is completely irrelevant if there's a huge hole in the middle of it.

[Zindaras]

See sig.

I'll do my assignment, but I'm really not in a position to do so right now.

[Zindaras]

Miss you guys. :'(

We miss you too. *hug*

I've been working on the thing.

[Zindaras]

Okay, let's start with ThAdmiral. These are the entries into my earlier analysis for him.

MBL

thinks pablito,

ubertimmy/Nightfall

and ChannelDelibird/StallingChamp are scum.
PJ,

Twomz

and ChannelDelibird/SC attack cbox.
Pablito defends cbox and attacks CDB/SC for voting him.
CDB/SC FoSes PJ and votes Mert (for tying two people together).
MoS thinks PJ is Town.

Ubertimmy/Nightfall

agrees.
Pablito votes CDB/SC for not attacking

Thok

for binding two people together.

Thok

pushes pablito for voting CDB.
PJ posts his LoE, containing bird, Phoebus, CDB/SC and pablito. However, he doesn't think pablito is scum.
Cbox unvotes bird and votes pablito. He's not suspicious of CDB, but he is suspicious of Phoebus.

MBL

thinks CDB/SC is being awkward.
PJ threw CDB/SC on the LoE to incite reactions (this was also vibe from the original LoE).
Mert's list of suspicions regarding the LoE is Phoebus-bird-pablito-CDB.
PJ executes

Rosso

.

CTD

votes PJ, SC,

Twomz

and

timmy/Nightfall

.

Spectrumvoid

votes

timmy/Nightfall

and SC for the same reasoning as 557.
Pablito votes SC for no reason and is losing confidence in cbox.
Pablito thinks SC is scummy, cbox is townish,

spectrumvoid

is scummy.
SC votes

Pooky

, Fritz and MoS.

Glork

posts a LoE containing

MBL

, Mert,

Pooky

, Yos, tentative Pablito,

CTD

and SC.

It's interesting to note that Voidybuns jumped on CTD's Post 557 (a move I characterised as scummy before) to vote both Skruffs/Nightfall/Timmy (now dead Kingmaker) and ThAdmiral/StallingChamp/Olio/ChannelDelibird.

I'll go back in time on this one and take a closer look at 557. In Post 557, CTD votes the following four people over the following reasons:

PJ: The way the Rosso execution played out.
SC: Lurking and supporting PJ's execution plan.
Twomz: Burden of proof, over-eagerness on the birdwagon.
Ubertimmy: Lurking.

The link between SC and PJ here is worth pointing out.

In Post 558, pablito votes both timmy and CTD, saying CTD's reason for voting PJ is very weak. Pablito is buddying up to PJ like there's no tomorrow. Voidy votes for Timmy and SC, citing 557 as her exact source. Another interesting defense of PJ in that post. Upon a closer re-read (I'm getting the feeling I'm digressing slightly now...) I also found two posts that look like PJ-defenses from Pooky, namely 211 and 999. However, in 211, it seems his defense of PJ is more of an attack on Glork, and in 999, one can only help but wonder what Pooky's thoughts were, coming in. After all, at that point, Pooky was on the LoE and a quite probable execution. It's a real shame Pooky never finished his analysis, so we don't know what he said about voidybuns.

But, for comparison, we'll take a look at Pooky's list of opinions:

Scum: bird.
Suspicious: CTD (Town), Mert.
Town: Cbox, LuckayLuck (Town), MoS, MBL (Town), Nightson, pablito, PJ.

Interesting to note here is his Dead Rikimaru section, in which he says there will be more about Dead Riki in the pablito section, but, as far as I can see, there's nothing there. I definitely think that that is a scum-tell for Dead Rikimaru, now mnowax.

I think I've digressed way too much now, so back to ThAdmiral.

CdB is the first person to have played that role. He votes cbox in his second post, though his point is reasonably strong. Then we get his next post, which is in response to a pablito post which I really don't like (95), as pablito stresses how much risk he's taking by defending cbox, something which looks an awful lot like scum defending town to me. Doesn't want to out the Kingmaker, meh, next post is more interesting.

The next post is 186, Delly's supposed major post. Attacks cbox for giving up. Agrees with Yos over MoS, but doesn't vote. FoSes Jelly for stating he's town. Thinks Phoebus is strange. Votes Mert for tying two people together (Phoebus and MoS), something with which I personally disagree.

This really isn't a very strong post. I'm seeing attacks, however minor, here on Cbox, MoS, Jelly and Mert. All those are alive, so we can't really say anything solid about it, but I think Cbox and MoS are town.

Next up is a request for an LoE. Apology for falling behind. His last post is a defense against Jelly, explaining his votes for cbox and Mert. I think the vote against Mert there is very poor. The case against Cbox is stronger there, but I don't really like the weight he puts on the tells (as he ignores Cbox's newbishness) and it's fairly 'wagonish.

Delly's overall posting was...insufficient. Not a whole lot to analyze. Has mostly discussed Cbox. The overall vibe I'm getting from his posts are scummy.

Next up is StallingChamp. The beginning here is interesting. As CTD said, he apparently thought PJ made a good decision under the circumstanced, but also didn't think Rosso was a good execution, which is quite the contradiction. A really interesting post is Post 661. It's a very odd post. On one hand, there's the fact that he's voting a scumbuddy here. On the other hand, I really don't know what to think of this post. It could be distancing. Overall, it gives me a good gut feel, but I suggest everyone look at it for themselves. After this, SC flakes and is replaced.

SC only posted one "big" content-post, namely 661. There's an interesting possible link with Jelly to remember. Overall, though, the feeling I get from SC is a lot better than the feeling I got from CDB.

Next up in the replacement train is Olio. He starts off the game with this post, voting pablito, LuckayLuck and Nightson. Now, I think his vote for LuckayLuck is rather weak and based more on Luckay's playstyle than anything else. Nightson because he sees things in 808, things I really don't see. The case for pablito is a bit stronger, but I also don't really see it. Then we get a little debate with pablito over the case, something I find rather insignificant, to be honest. This is a more interesting post, as we finally get off the pablito-argument. His main suspicions are still pablito-Luckay-Nightson, for the same reasons, but now voidybuns and Mossy are thrown into the mix. Voidybuns especially seems a bit fabricated here, very possible distancing. Votes MoS for not responding to his posts, unvotes later when there is response. A wee bit aggressive against Dead Riki (which, I believe, was during Riki's Kingship), which is a bit of a plus. Aggressive against Luckay, semi-prodding him here. I actually rather like this post. I like the questions in there. Follow-up here. A bit of a debate with Yossy afterwards. Thinks Luckay is gambiting with his "Lynch me" attitude. Then asks to be replaced.

Olio started out horribly. I really don't like the way he added Voidy to his scumlist and completely ignored her afterwards. I liked a couple of the posts he made later, which overall gave me a good gut feeling. I'm fifty-fifty on him.

ThAdmiral is the last in line. Votes pablito, Smashy and Fritzler early on, no explanations given. Votes mnowax over an OMGUS-vote and unvotes pablito because "we need him to get discussion". I really do not agree with that kind of argument. If he's valuable, he's just being valuable for the scum, not for the town. Possible link with Der Hammer here. Next post is an LoE-post. I'll quote it for quotey goodness.

MoS: no, mainly because the summary posts were so god-damned helpful.
VitaminR: i don't know. Yes, but I think he deserves a bit of time to state his case.
SV: maybe, leaning towards no. There are better plays at the moment in my opinion.
Smashy: obv yes, as I'm voting for him.

Defense of voidy. Clearly pushing for Smashy. Doesn't mind a mnowax-hammer. This post gives me awful vibes. It's pretty much the first time he even mentions mnowax. Then there's a contentless month. His back post contains three things. He's not against another mnowax-kill, but he wants to give him a day. He wants Thesp to better outline his case against MoS because Thesp seems pretty positive, and he wants me to say who I'm going to execute. I'm seeing quite a link between him and Yos in the following posts, that's not a good thing either. Next post is in response to my LoE, makes for another interesting quote:

I haven't done a full read-through yet, but I seem to remember that zindies play didn't strike me as overly scummy, just...unusual. He has his own style, and thats fine with me.

In my opinion, this looks a wee bit like he's trying to buddy up to me.

My thoughts on the loe:

SV - I wouldn't.

Vit - I've been coming round to this one, but I think...

Fritz - is probably the best option today.

His position on Voidy has become stronger. Where it was "maybe, probably not" when Yos was King, now it has become a flat-out no. Thinks Vitamin is scummy. Coming around seems like an odd choice of words, seeing how I don't think he's mentioned him before. Wants Fritz deaded. However, he's never stated any reasons for wanting Fritz dead, even in his first vote. Sees me as "good king listening to his people", which really says nothing about me. Don't like that. Reason for putting Voidy below were "gut".

Question: ThAdmiral, which posts gave you a good gut feeling?

Votes mnowax, Fritz, Vitamin. Hasn't completed his task.

Well, that's it. The overall gut feeling I got from the role was pretty bad, especially so with ThAdmiral. I'm seeing possible links between the role and Voidybuns, Yossy and Jelly, one of which is proven scum and one of which I believe is scum. Pushes Vitamin/Fritz/Mnowax1/Mnowax2. Overall, he's a pretty good lynch. I don't think I want him today, though.

[Zindaras]

Well, Phoebus is next, so let's get at it. These are the notes I have on him:

ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne

votes Phoebus and Mert.
Phoebus votes Mert.
PJ FoSes

Glork

for not linking to the discussion at the end of last Kingmaker and for not scumhunting. PJ votes Phoebus for pushing wagons.

Twomz

votes Phoebus.

Spectrumvoid

thinks PJ and

Glork

are town and Phoebus scummy and asks MoS for clarification.
PJ thinks both Yos and MoS are town. (lolrhyming?). PJ also thinks pablito is town, and likes his votes on Phoebus and bird111.
Mert thinks cbox is scummy and PJ shouldn't think he's town because cbox reminds him of someone who was town in KM. Mert thinks Phoebus is scummy and unvotes MoS.

Amelia/LL

votes Phoebus.

Glork

votes Phoebus.
Cbox votes bird and Phoebus.

Rosso Carne

thinks pablito is stupid, PJ is scum and Phoebus is town.
Nightson thinks cbox is town and is suspicious of pablito and Phoebus.

Glork

wants clarification from

spectrumvoid

and Mert why they're voting cbox and Phoebus.
Phoebus has nothing to add.
PJ posts his LoE, containing bird, Phoebus, CDB/SC and pablito. However, he doesn't think pablito is scum.
Cbox unvotes bird and votes pablito. He's not suspicious of CDB, but he is suspicious of Phoebus.
Phoebus doesn't like the tone of pablito's last posts.
MoS says Phoebus is definitely Town.
Yos votes Phoebus for being the one on the LoE he is most suspicious of.
Mert's list of suspicions regarding the LoE is Phoebus-bird-pablito-CDB.
MoS buddies Phoebus.

Thok

thinks MoS and Phoebus aren't scum together.

MBL

says pablito, MoS and Phoebus are acting weird.
PJ will consider Phoebus, bird111 and

Rosso

.
MoS "just wants to see Phoebus live."
PJ posts opinions in Post 516. Puts bird111, pablito, Phoebus,

Rosso

,

spectrumvoid

(not so much), Vaughn/Hammer (same performance as KM) as scum.
PJ executes

Rosso

.
Bird111 is suspicious of Mert, Phoebus and

Twomz

.
Phoebus agrees with the birdwagon.
Bird unvotes Phoebus.
Phoebus votes pablito and Yos.
Yos votes pablito and FoSes Phoebus.

Something which caught my eye was PJ's 516, which means we're going on another digress-tour. In the vote count in Post 420, the only one who was voting voidybuns was Timmy, our dead Kingmaker. I had her pegged as scum at that point. I also found an interesting little list here:

People I Will Not Execute

Thok
Glork

Mastermind of Sin
Fritzler

MrBuddyLee

Cardb0ardb0x
Pablito

People I Do Not Strongly Consider for Execution

AmeliaSlay

ChannelDelibird

CrashTextDummie

Dead Rikimaru
Machiavellian-Mafia
Mert
Nightson

PookytheMagicalBear
spectrumvoid

Twomz
UberTimmy

Vaughn
Yosarian2

People I Strongly Consider for Execution
Phoebus
Bird1111

Rosso Carne

I don't really like this list, here. Definitely something to remember.

The addition of voidy in Post 516 isn't scummy. PJ makes a total reread and says voidy is scummy based on that. As far as I can see, there's no external pressure.


Anyway, back to Phoebus. Phoebus starts the game by voting MBL, pablito and cbox, also stating that he will play by gut and probably not building cases. Adds a vote on Mert, calls Mert out for an apparent OMGUS-vote (found here). Denies bandwagoning. Votes bird, pablito and Yos. Pushes bird. There is an interesting debate with Yossy here. That might require some closer scrutiny. Wants to get the Day over with and a bird-execution.

Well, that's it as far as Phoebus goes. My gut feeling on him is actually pretty good. There's the interaction between him and Yos that makes me feel better about him. He prodded voidy as well once, though I figure that's not too big of a thing.

Phoebus is repaced by DoS. Let's see what he makes of it. His first little bit of input is Post 1401. He votes CTD, LL and MoS. He mostly depends on the reasoning of others here, something I dislike a lot. Especially the reasons for LL are

very

tangential. I mean, if you agree with reasons stated throughout the thread, then you should quote them and point out which ones you agree with. Goes along with the attempts to start a revolt against Riki.

Well, that's pretty much it as far as DoS goes. No real content past that. To be honest, his original post gave off a lot of bad vibes, and he hasn't done anything to make up for that (or, well, anything at all, to be honest). The Riki thing gives him some minor pro-town points.

Ah, and now for the most interesting of this little group, Vitty. Going through his (reasonless) posts:
-Dead Riki scummy.
-PJ and SV scum. MoS and Pablito town.
-One of RafK/Scope scum.
-Fritz suspicious.
-Zindie pro-town.

His next post summarizes his feelings. Isn't certain about Jelly-scum anymore, a change of opinion which makes me feel better about him, actually. Also changes his mind on Fritz. Votes RafK, Scope and Voidy, wants Voidy executed. Rates pablito pro-town again later. Thinks Shanba's town. Calls out Yos for ignoring Voidy. Yeah, that one's definitely a plus. Here is a nice post where he outlines his reasons for finding Voidy scummy. Response to Jelly's case in the next few posts. Doesn't want mnowax, wants Voidy. Next day, he votes voidy and FoSes Yos. Next post, more opinions: Doesn't trust PJ, thinks pabs-Thesp is town, thinks MoS is town, has mostly found Scope's predecessor scummy, not Scope himself, still thinks one of RafK-Scope is scum, thinks Fritz is pro-town. Gets in an argument with PJ. Provides his analysis on RafK and Fritz. Nothing particularly interesting there. Votes Mnowax and Toaster Strudel. Interesting post there, not sure if I like it.

I'd really like Jelly to re-analyze Vitamin's posting here. Vitamin was pushing pretty hard for a Voidy-execution. I'd go as far as to say that if Yossy is scum, Vitamin is almost assuredly town. If not, he'd be pushing his buddy to execute another buddy, a move which would be very unorthodox, especially considering that Yos didn't execute Voidy in the end. I'll be honest and say that the main reason I'm getting town vibes from him are his posts regarding voidy.


Of the two, I'd most definitely prefer a ThAdmiral lynch. I know I had Vitamin on my LoE, but I'm happy I didn't execute him. I would put Vitamin more in the neutral part right now.

[Zindaras]

I'd go as far as to say that if Yossy is scum, Vitamin is almost assuredly town.

Of course, I'm not scum. You all should really stop basing all your arguments on Yos being scum here.

You are right. However, I want to execute

you

first.

The general thing you're getting at here is the following statement:

"If A is scum, then B must be scum as well. Therefore, we should lynch B."

However, I'm saying that we should lynch A first, then draw conclusions about B. My opinion on Vitty was required, and my conclusion depends on your alignment.

[Zindaras]

Gone until Sunday.

[Zindaras]

Bah, humbug.

Have fun.

[Zindaras]

Wooooooo! Party, people! Party! Jelly finally won a large game again! *confetti*

Well, I personally think the town did a pretty good job. In 5 town kingships, we executed 3 assassins. Unfortunately, we had way too many scum kings.

I enjoyed the game, especially after my inactive period, when I became King. I have to thank Skruffs for that. That probably got me interested enough in the game again to play for full again.

This also marks the 100th game I finished as town. Fun fact: when I replaced in, I hadn't even started my 100th game, total.

*giggles*

[Zindaras]

Yeah, Skruffs only made me King. Which was pretty awesome.

[Zindaras]

I wanted to make you king, too! :'(

*hugs*

That was really sweet.

Well, PJ just killed everyone who executed scum before they would be able to become King again. An understandable strategy, of course. But, personally, I think the game does better with a doc. Or just something.

[Zindaras]

I think there is an offsetting factor in the fact that the King will tend to make a better decision than the entirety of the town. If you make Glork or Jelly (except if they're evil scums) King, you're going to get some pretty good returns.

[Zindaras]

I think there is an offsetting factor in the fact that the King will tend to make a better decision than the entirety of the town. If you make Glork or Jelly (except if they're evil scums) King, you're going to get some pretty good returns.

But isn't that the reason for all the lurking? people relying on Glork and Jelly to give them the scums and not doing anything themselves? Not to mention it being extremely easy for the scum to only have to convince one or two that they are protown due to the reliance on that few.

Oh, that's the reason for the lurking, yes, but that wasn't my point. My point was more of a balance-thing.

[Zindaras]

I had some small suspicions regarding PJ, but then I died.