Mafia in La-La Land (Game over!)

[DeasVail]

Vote: PeregrineV

He's the most likely to be scum.

[DeasVail]

And deas complete lack of confirmation is a bit different from lurking.

There's a little more to it than that.

[DeasVail]

Darn you, Bitmap! I guess there is a wagon already.

Why make this post?

PEdit: I'm not sure if Quilford's latest post changes things, but basically it's because he hasn't confirmed despite posting at around this time yesterday. I think that even though he's V/LA he probably would have checked his PMs, and I think it's pretty easy to quickly confirm, but I think it's less likely he would have if he had a Mafia QT to distract him. The main thing though is that I don't know why he wouldn't have confirmed.

Also, I agree with the dream reveal thing.

[DeasVail]

PeregrineV:

When did you tell Quil you'd be V/LA?

[DeasVail]

That would've been my PEdit.

Yeah, but why did you make the post instead of just saying nothing? I guess what I mean is, why did you feel the need to comment on Bitmap's vote?

[DeasVail]

And deas can a player usually talk in a qt before confirming?

Mafia role PMs have a link to the QT in them, and usually they're able to talk before the game starts.

[DeasVail]

Not in any finished forum games. I've been scum on another site and I can link you to the two scum games I have there if wanted. I've also been scum multiple times on EM (username there is the same as here).

I asked deas since he mentioned it.

P-edit: @Deas, I personally think if someone checks a qt they'd send the confirmation then too, but it's mostly null to me then (if confirming was needed to use the qt I'd lean more on minor town tell).

How did you communicate as scum on the other site?

Also, what is your explanation for PV not confirming while online?

[DeasVail]

VOTE: AGar

amidoinitrite?

Yeah you are actually.

Unvote: PV
Vote: Agar

PEdit: I want the answer first. And, I'm not really pushing at him yet.

[DeasVail]

Google documents mostly or pms (EM has a night period where if your mafia and talking only other mafia see it).

I don't have one I just don't find it scummy (which is why I think it's null).

Were the Google Docs provided by the mod or fellow scum?

Also Shii, it's because I made a deal with Quil.

[DeasVail]

Mehdi, have you ever played as scum?

Shii, why did you ask this question?

[DeasVail]

Then why didn't you understand my questioning?

[DeasVail]

Actually,

Mod:

Would you count someone as confirmed if they posted in a game-related QT, but didn't reply by PM?

PEDit: I don't really think much of it.

[DeasVail]

Your Post 55 comes after Mehdi had confirmed that the other site uses a different type of mafia discussion. Google Docs being provided by the mod or by fellow scum is unimportant to figuring out an alignment. Thus I think your questioning is just posturing, trying to appear town by scumhunting.

I thought that if the Google doc was provided by the mod, then it would be a lot like the QT system on MS in a way.

I think we're both town though. So you don't have to be sad, you just have to belieeeeeve!

[DeasVail]

Deas why is shi town? Didn't we just discuss why it's good to explain town reads/leaning town.

It's because the question he asked you about being mafia before was what I was thinking of asking, and there are a few things he's said which I feel are unlikely to come from scum.

[DeasVail]

There was Open 349, but that was ages ago and you replaced out so you probably don't remember

[DeasVail]

Reading through again, the thing that's still nagging in my mind is why you voted Agar over Mehdi if you were pressuring the latter?

Eh, I didn't really think to vote Mehdi because I never really thought he was likely scum. And the Agar vote was too good to resist

[DeasVail]

By the way, you should join, it's actually really fun here.

[DeasVail]

Deas what did you find scummy in agar's vote post?

Nothing.

[DeasVail]

Deas you're actually town hug me <3

Yesssss!!!! <3

Now it's your turn Kondi.

[DeasVail]

I'm torn on Kondi to be honest.

I'll get up what I think later.

[DeasVail]

Wait you want me to solidify a townread on Deas for you?

How do I do that if I don't have a townread myself?

Why didn't you answer the question?

MattP:

What do you think of Kondi's scumread of me? It's the main thing holding me back from a scumread, because it's based on a hydra, so is unlikely to be able to convince anyone (When I went back and had a look, even I had trouble distinguishing his posts from mine) and is something he as scum may not attempt because it could very well be considered a bad reason to be on the wagon ---> scummy. I also think it's fairly believable that Kondi would think that as town.

[DeasVail]

Eh

UNVOTE: Agar
VOTE: Staeg

Shamrock:

What do you think of Blastoide, and how has your recent exchange with him altered your opinion (if at all)?

[DeasVail]

I don't really know, but I think 5 sounds about right if there's one team, and it's most likely 3/3 if multiball.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: Staeg

Vote: Konawa

I actually think his change of mind is the scummiest thing so far in his play, because first, it shouldn't have been so hard to see what Mehdi could find scummy in the post, and he could've just asked Mehdi about it in order to better understand him, so I doubt Reck saying what he did would change Konawa's mind as it appears to have. Also, I think just the way he changes his mind is really scummy. Instead of "ugh yeah, sorry you're right", he gives the whole reading posts as null and later reviewing them thing, which sounds like scum trying to have an excuse for the whole thing, except it's a really bad one.

[DeasVail]

So you are saying that townme would have said gg no re Mehdi? What about my position on Mehdi do you disagree with?

I don't know what you mean in the first question. For the second, I disagreed with your scum position, but if you're saying he's town now, then I agree with that.

Also interested to hear the answer to peta's question.

[DeasVail]

why the hell would scum vote to try to start a wagon player (Mehdi) that's been widely proclaimed as town?

I've done this as scum before in the hope that people would think this, so I don't think it's that unlikely.

[DeasVail]

Re 167: What don't you understand? In case it makes sense of the question, I missed Shii's post beforehand.

Re 206: I thought Staeg was slightly scummy and pretty much everyone else was either a meh or town read. I mostly just wanted to see what would happen.

What are your thoughts on Konawa?

[DeasVail]

the way the wagon built up really scares me.

I think this is a bad reason to consider him town though, because if he was scum, it's probably more likely that fellow scum would want to jump on his wagon quickly than if he was town.

[DeasVail]

This kinda looks like you are trying to keep the suspicion on Konowa. Why exactly do you find him scummy again? From what it looks like it is because of his change of mind. I have only seen him change his mind once, which was about Mehdii where he did admit he was wrong, in a way. Do you honestly still think he is scum? (I'm sure someone else said this already)I don't think that scum would attack one of the highest townreads in the game.

I think that scum may be less likely to attack a popular townread, but I can see scum doing it in the way that Konowa did and I think that how he went about the whole thing and the way that he changed his mind are how scum would act.

Also, this is not as relevant as I thought, but here I'm scum and continue attacking town-Tierce despite many calling her town. Difference though is that I start attacking her before it becomes clear that she's widely considered town, although I do remember hoping to be considered town for continuing to attack her, and I do think I withdrew my scumread a bit later on. I don't think it worked too well and as I said, it's not exactly the same, but I don't at all think it's one of those things that scum wouldn't do.

Also, Konowa, what is your opinion on people finding you town for attacking medhi?

[DeasVail]

Konowa:

-The QT thing is the main reason I find Mehdi town, but just his overall play I've found townish as well.

-Re: talking out of both sides of my mouth- Because that's what I think? If I was to look at how often scum attack popular townreads compared to how often town do the same, I think it's fairly likely that town would more often do it, but I don't think it's

that

unlikely for scum to do it, and I think you're scum.

-Please answer my question too. Blastoide and Seastorm have said similar things.

~~

I'll try explaining my thoughts on Konowa a bit better later.

PEDit: Was it before or after the Role PM?

[DeasVail]

Ugh, I keep getting all unsure, but here is what I think anyway.

So, the main things are:

-He wasn't really interested in why mehdi voted Reck, and instead just uses it to attack him. (I'm becoming less sure that this is a good point though)
-221 is something that I do think is scummy because of

"I guess what my point is, is that I read posts like that as null and then later review once said player has started playing."

, which I feel is just careful justifying of his unvote.
-289: Here he says that since no one agrees with Mehdi-scum he's obviously doing something wrong. I actually think this is really scummy because the kind of attitude contradicts with him attacking Mehdi in the first place, and also seems like an easy way to justify no longer having a scumread on Mehdi.

BUT:

He appears unaware that anyone other than Shii called him town for attacking Mehdi. I was thinking this could be scum trying to look town in this way, but I don't think it's all that likely, and I think it's likely he would be aware of opinions of him as scum. I do tend to call people town for bad reasons though, so I'd like opinions on this, especially since I actually think the last point for him being scum is good.

[DeasVail]

Reck's post?

[DeasVail]

He appears unaware that anyone other than Shii called him town for attacking Mehdi. I was thinking this could be scum trying to look town in this way, but I don't think it's all that likely, and I think it's likely he would be aware of opinions of him as scum. I do tend to call people town for bad reasons though, so I'd like opinions on this, especially since I actually think the last point for him being scum is good.

Can people please tell me what they think of this?

Also, I'm still kind of eh on Kondi. He could easily be scum from most of his posts, but I'm not sure if he'd go for the hydra-attack as scum. I think Konowa's more scummy anyway.

[DeasVail]

It's the main thing holding me back from a scumread, because it's based on a hydra, so is unlikely to be able to convince anyone (When I went back and had a look, even I had trouble distinguishing his posts from mine) and is something he as scum may not attempt because it could very well be considered a bad reason to be on the wagon ---> scummy. I also think it's fairly believable that Kondi would think that as town.

This is pretty much what I meant, but I'm not really opposed to the wagon on him.

You all could come join me on Konowa instead though! (And another thing: The last time I asked for opinions on something I found townish about a scumread and no one answered, the scumread was scum! So, you all have to vote for him now.)

[DeasVail]

Manho:

Why is being paranoid scummy?

4nxi3ty:

What are your thoughts on PV and Kondi and why is a PV lynch better?

MattP:

Which player do you think is most likely to be scum?

[DeasVail]

Kondi:

Current thoughts on konowa?

[DeasVail]

I don't agree with lynching manho and I think we should have more posts from him/his slot before that because it's possible that if he's town, he could prove himself to be, and I don't even think he's that scummy. I agree with others that a Kondi lynch is better and there's something else about him (and others too), but I want to wait a bit before saying it.

I still think a Konowa lynch is best though, and I really don't think people should just conclude that he's town for attacking Mehdi (which isn't even that risky from scum's PoV), especially when there are things that are scummy about him.

[DeasVail]

Some Form of Townread:

AGar
Staeg
Seastormjt
Shiidaji
PMysterious
Shamrock
MattP
Mehdi2277
Blastoide
Gammagooey

Null/Maybe Leaning Scum:

manho
Inox- Close to being a townread, but there's something I'm concerned about.
Petapan
4nxi3ty
Knight of Cydonia
Kondi2424
Bitmap

Scum?

Reckoner-

Contrived reason to get off the Konowa wagon while never actually providing further thought on someone. And the whole "I'm drunk, let's sheep gamma" thing seems like quite a nice way for him to get off the wagon, which would probably have been considered a beneficial thing to do whether Konowa was town

or

scum. (Kondi is similar in this way if I remember right). His attitude to day 1 and recent lack of involvement is something that I could lean either way on.

Also, everyone seems to think he's town so +++scumpoints!

PeregrineV-

I know it may be stupid, but I still think I could be right about the whole not confirming/scumQT thing. What others have pointed out seems slightly scummy to me, but his most recent vote on PM is the main thing for me. Still, quite a weak scumread.

Konowa-

Apart from his scumreads being bad in my opinion, there's not much from his more recent posting that stands out to me. So this is basically for what I've said earlier.

~~

I really don't want a Kondi lynch without seeing his replacement properly, and I still think a Konowa lynch would be good. If there's any interest for a Reck wagon, I'd consider that as well.

[DeasVail]

DV do you want me to vote konowa again

Yeah, and if you could convince others to as well that would be good too.

Deas explain the sheer size of your town reads (and specifically sea, agar, and blastoide). As for waiting until we see a replacement I can understand that for claim purposes, but when kondi is replaced he does not just get a clean slate.

Some of the townreads are pretty weak and some of them are strong.

Seastorm-

Her posting seems generally townish, but mostly it's her catch-up post which seems formatted so that it can more easily be viewed rather than so she looks town. The best example is her spoilering of the analysis she did, which is a good idea because it makes it easier to see her questions and scumreads, but I know that if I was scum I wouldn't bother because then no one would miss how 'town' I was.

Agar-

His posting seems like town with lack of time/motivation rather than scum trying to look town.

Blastoide-

Posts are generally townish, with the main thing being his response to the questions about him wanting to be first on a wagon early in the day.

About Kondi, no he doesn't get a clean slate, but I think a replacement (depending on who it is) could help us read the slot a fair bit better.

[DeasVail]

It isn't, but I just don't get the impression from his posts that he's trying to look town. Whereas scum with lack of motivation would probably just say so and would probably try to look more town with their posts. It's a weak read though.

[DeasVail]

FTR I don't really agree with this wagon

VOTE: Konowa

If you could decide the lynchee, who would it be?

[DeasVail]

Question for you, what was the point of you asking me that?

So that you could confuse me with your change of vote, of course.

[DeasVail]

MattP:

Do you think Bitmap's reaction to ~that game~ could be more extreme than what it would actually be if he was town?

~~

UNVOTE: Konowa
VOTE: KoC

I agree with Shii in thinking the change in PM from policy lynchee to scumread is contrived.

Konowa's still a scumread, but I'm not that sure about him, so let's see what happens with this.

[DeasVail]

Why did you change your vote to begin with?

What do you think of KoC?

[DeasVail]

Eh, I can see lack of scumhunting from town. As I've said, the main thing for me is how PM was first off a policy lynch, and then somehow became a scumread.

Honestly I don't think a policy lynch on PM is a terrible idea and I actually thought KoC was likely town for pushing it, as scum probably would feel uncomfortable about suggesting one if PM is town, but now that KoC finds PM scummy, it kind of supports how I think scum would act.

[DeasVail]

Well at least that means I'm town.

[DeasVail]

KoC:

Read on Mehdi?

[DeasVail]

671 is scummy.

PMysterious:

Have you played in a game with a dayvig before? Also, do you have any completed games as scum?

Mehdi:

Why town VI as opposed to scum VI?

KoC:

Can I have your mehdi read please? And also, how would you feel about a peta lynch?

~~

I really don't know about PM. I think it's possible that he's lying about the dayvig thing (trying to become confirmed town from it or something), but I'm not really sure if PM would risk something like that as scum (although he could be scum even without lying about thinking he was going to get dayvigged). Ugh, I don't know, but I still think his posting may be just too obviously controversial(?) to be scum.

[DeasVail]

Town VI based purely on numbers. So far all he's done to me looks like usual PM and nothing alignment telling for him.

Have you seen him as scum?

[DeasVail]

Eh, I disagree. I'm going to be a bit more careful with reading you after that, but I didn't suddenly think you were scum or anything. I could see myself doing something similar to bitmap as scum though.

Petapan:

Why is being swayed still the reason when the one who swayed you is voting for someone else?

[DeasVail]

I don't know about Shamrock. I've found Shamrock's posting slightly town, but I think the 'wow' thing is scummy because how he justifies his vote later (and implies that he didn't think what happened recently was important) contradicts with him saying 'wow'.

Before History Mafia ended I remember thinking I didn't find Shamrock scummy in the ways that I thought he was there, but at the same time, I didn't have a strong townread. I still think his play is a bit different, but I don't think it necessarily means he's scum, and meta just confuses me anyway. Was there something else you wanted me to compare to History Mafia?

[DeasVail]

they are?

I thought it was Matt, and he's voting PM I think. Was it someone else?

[DeasVail]

i am also voting pmysterious?

Sorry, thought you were voting manho. Please disregard that then.

[DeasVail]

That's more like fencedancing.

[DeasVail]

Ok everyone, I think it's time for a...

S

C

U

M

R

E

A

D

C

O

N

T

E

S

T

!!!!!

Here's how it will work:

You each get a... certain period of time to convince DeasVail that you have the best scumread! The winner gets the fabulous prize of...

DeasVail's absolutely amazing persuasive skills, as well as his vote, on their side!

Your time starts...

NOW!



Note: This IS a legitimately fun contest, despite what any of you may think.

[DeasVail]

N's leaning town for me from his post.

I'll try and decide who I think is scum when I have time.

[DeasVail]

Um guys, I actually think KoC is town. I can explain now if people really want it, but I'd rather wait a bit.

Konowa:

Why didn't you vote Jarvis when the N lynch obviously had more support?

Reck:

I don't know? If scum didn't put at least one scum in a claimed dream, they'd be caught out eventually, so I think it's a good idea to lynch from the dream, but I don't think I'm going to restrict myself to it. Actually, there is something that makes Jarvis more likely honest.

Why did you ask the question, and to me in particular?

Shii:

I agree with Mehdi about him not being cautious at all, and I can see scumhunting motivation behind it.

VOTE: Konowa

[DeasVail]

DV I already answered that.

Well, "competing wagons" doesn't really do much for me, so you might want to answer again.

[DeasVail]

Regarding KoC...

I started questioning my scumread on him yesterday after 648, which is really pushing people to vote for PM after it's already been controversial (more like town trying to get people to do what he wants rather than scum not wanting to attract attention to themselves imo). I felt it wouldn't be too hard for scum to do this though.

However, the big thing for me is the vote on N. It just seems like it would be too similar to his going after PMysterious from scum's perspective (with them both being easy targets and popular scumreads) after he got suspicion for the PM one.

If people could tell me what they think, it would be really good because I'm not really sure, but I think he could be town because of this.

Also,

KoC:

Why is N scum, and why are you voting him instead of anyone else (e.g. Konowa)?

~~

What do people who are voting N think of the opinions of him being more likely town from his post?

Mod:

I think I'm voting for Konowa, unless there's a reason why I'm not.

[DeasVail]

What changed between 563 and now?

Why didn't you post any of this before now?

[DeasVail]

Most of the posts you mention were made before you said that though.

[DeasVail]

i'm also kind of lurking a dumb amount and should stop that soon i guess.

N's posts at the start of the day aren't actually scummy at all. they're BAD, and they COULD be coming from a bad scum player, but I don't think there's anything in that dumb clump of posts that's actually scum-motivated. yeah sure you can go 'but gaaaamma he's talking about roles ROLEFISHING IS BAD' and yes it is

bad

but unless he's coming from some other mafia site where people claim at the tip of a hat to whoever asks it's not actually scummy at all. and i know this is totally subjective but read over his posts and try to imagine what he's thinking as he's making them. because i really don't see 'heh i'm gonna try to get some people to claim for shitty reasons' i see just dumb spur of the moment talk about his claim and things that might be relevant to it.

and yeah manho was a scummy piece of garbage yesterday. but KoC jumping on N's wagon when everyone else is doing it for bad posting and then attacking manho's play when i don't remember him going after manho or even mentioning him when he was a serious wagon yesterday feels WAY more like scum jumping on a lynch of a scummy player than town following up on yesterday's suspicions. yes n should post more and be less bad and MAYBE he's even scum with koc and kocscum felt like attacking his scummy scumbuddy for townpoints or something (i don't think it's that likely but if there were two scum in a dream i think they'd at least consider bussing each other) but i would way rather see KoC dead today than N.

sorry for the kind-of-wall but yeah.

also what the hell why do you have midterms in september, i thought school only started last month for you.

What reading of the game did you do before making this post?

[DeasVail]

or while making it.

[DeasVail]

These are what I think are the most scummy things about Konowa from Day 1:

-221 is something that I do think is scummy because of "I guess what my point is, is that I read posts like that as null and then later review once said player has started playing.", which I feel is just careful justifying of his unvote.
-289: Here he says that since no one agrees with Mehdi-scum he's obviously doing something wrong. I actually think this is really scummy because the kind of attitude contradicts with him attacking Mehdi in the first place, and also seems like an easy way to justify no longer having a scumread on Mehdi.

Along with his vote for Jarvis instead of N from today.

I also still think KoC is more likely town.

[DeasVail]

Konowa was somewhat pushing kondi2424 toward the end of Day 1, so how is this unusual?

Because according to him they're both scum, but he votes for Jarvis instead of N, despite N looking much more likely to be lynched.

[DeasVail]

why does he do that as scum, though

Not wanting to bandwagon after PM the previous day/trying to look town by going for someone else instead of the "easy target" despite having a scumread on him (this particularly works nicely if he's buddies with Jarvis, but I don't know how likely that is).

[DeasVail]

Konowa:

Why didn't you just say a one-line version of 867 when you were originally asked?

[DeasVail]

PeregrineV:

What do you think of the main wagons, and why haven't you provided thoughts on them?

[DeasVail]

@DV- who would the "leading wagons" be?

Well I meant N, KoC, Konowa at the time. I would expect town to be concerned with working out what they think of those being wagoned.

[DeasVail]

Rach:

Do you lurk more as scum than town?

Sorry!

[DeasVail]

There is a point to it.

[DeasVail]

Rach:

Thanks for answering. And it's a hydra with DeltaWave.

[DeasVail]

Vote Konowa GO GO GO!

Vote Konowa GO GO GO!

Vooooooote...

KONOWA!

[DeasVail]

Well, it's not like it was going to give me insight into the meaning of life or anything, but I thought that since people were saying she lurked more as scum, it would be interesting to see whether she agreed.

I thought that if she said something like, "Yes, I do feel less motivation to post as scum usually, but I'm town here", I would've considered that townish maybe?

I thought that something like what she actually said would be scummy, but I might actually be leaning town because she provided links that don't really fit, while this game being a lot larger could be a reason for her lurking more, and if she was scum, I think she probably would've realised that the links didn't really fit and said this. Meanwhile I think town are more likely to remember a game where they felt bad for lurking and pick something that doesn't really fit without checking to make sure it does or justifying the difference.

I don't know though. I'm still kind of 'eh' on her alignment-wise, but I don't really want to lynch her (and there's not much I find scummy about her anyway).

[DeasVail]

But... Konowa....

I really don't know about KoC anymore though.

[DeasVail]

DV I thought most people would understand when ibposted before that one oost that it nade more sense to vote jarvis over n if I thought they were scum together.

It doesn't seem like you thought that at the time at all...

Eh, I'd still prefer a Konowa lynch, but KoC should probably claim.

[DeasVail]

I love the wagon!

[DeasVail]

Is there anything Konowa said that can be put forth as evidence he's scum? Otherwise, seems kind of dumb.

ISO me.

[DeasVail]

Isn't he V/LA on weekends though?

[DeasVail]

Wait, Konowa, did you claim?

Because I'm not even on your wagon and it's L-1, so...

[DeasVail]

PV, 837 has the main things I find scummy about Konowa.

[DeasVail]

And the thing with the vote for jarvis instead of N was that his later justification was something that didn't really match with what he gave at the time, and actually could have been said at the time.

And, N had the wagon and Jarvis didn't, so I think it was scum trying not to bandwagon.

[DeasVail]

@DV- Part of the problem is I see the similarity here in the bolded. Generally if I find myself having similar reads as someone, I feel I share an alignment with them. Konowa here seems to be saying KoC is not scum, which seems to agree with your thoughts.

Is this serious?

[DeasVail]

Well, because there was nothing that similar about our thoughts on KoC (what I found scummy, he found null. What made him town for me, I don't think was even mentioned by Konowa) and it's a read on one player...

[DeasVail]

To add to what petapan has stated: Knight of Cydonia was pushing N on a weak case. Considering that all Knight of Cydonia ever did was push weaker players, one of whom we know is town and the other very likely to be town, I doubt it was an attempt to bus. Also, other things. N's town here.

I disagree with this and I'm actually less sure of N with KoC-scum. I don't know if he's actually a scumread though.

[DeasVail]

Um, should I hammer?

(I

think

he's at L-1)

[DeasVail]

Actually I won't hammer until Sunday or so, and I think it's better if we wait until the weekend at least to give Quil a chance to get back.

[DeasVail]

Actually yeah, I see what you mean.

VOTE: 4nx

[DeasVail]

^That should be a vote for 4nx

[DeasVail]

Well that's no fun.

Unvote

[DeasVail]

N, what is your experience with scum roles?

[DeasVail]

It is my lynch. DV lost his share in it when he hopped off.

I was never on it because he got to L-1 too fast!

And I don't actually think 4nx is scum...

[DeasVail]

I didn't think 4nx was scum then either.

[DeasVail]

The wagon was shiny.

[DeasVail]

Yes.

[DeasVail]

No, just the idea of a wagon while I was bored.

[DeasVail]

How's the hook?

[DeasVail]

No problem with the hydra.

[DeasVail]

Mod:

Could we have an updated list of alive players?

[DeasVail]

Oh nvm I just realised it was in the OP.

[DeasVail]

PeregrineV:

Why did you not vote Konowa yesterday/think he was town?

VOTE: N

Petapan might be a scumread too.

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure scum can dream (it says all players have the dream ability), but I have townreads on everyone that's dreamt so far (the Staeg one is fairly weak, but I don't find him scummy).

Seastorm:

What is your experience with mafia, and do you know whether you prefer town or scum?

~~

The biggest thing about N for me is 1171. It just really confused me because it was so blatant that it didn't seem possible from a Konowa scumbuddy, but I'm thinking that it's too weird to come from town, and my theory is that N-scum was trying to make it look like he was Konowa's buddy knowing that Konowa was actually town. And I know this sounds kind of stupid and doesn't really make sense, but it's a lot similar to my way of thinking as newbscum.

I also agree with Shii about the bus thing. It's the only thing that would make sense of KoC-scum to me.

[DeasVail]

bitmap was a useless pos

This is why he's most likely town.

[DeasVail]

You skimmed the game since Day broke but managed to miss DeasVail's rather simple question to you, which he happened to color a vibrant shade of orange?

XD Maybe I should try a different colour next time...

PEdit: Re:Staeg, oh that's strange. I don't actually know what to make of it...

[DeasVail]

Peta, what was @me?

[DeasVail]

when and why did this change?

KoC flipping scum was the main thing that made me reconsider the read, but the joining the Konowa wagon thing was the other big thing. Other than that, some of his posts seem slightly townish, others slightly scummy.

[DeasVail]

also the way you reacted to the KoC wagon is pretty horrible, tbh but tonally some things suggest to me you're town. working on ISOing anxiety now.

Did you have any thoughts on my reaction before today?

[DeasVail]

I think you were pushing him at some point, and since I'm suspicious of you, I was less suspicious of him.

This doesn't make sense with your experience of me-scum.

[DeasVail]

<--- Town
<--- Town
<--- Town
<--- TOWN

I'm TOOOOOWWWWWWNNNN.

4nx, that was the whole point though. KoC goes after PM, and gets caught out for it, and then does the exact same thing with N-town?

PV, you don't have to check back on the games (although if it gives you a townread on me then go right ahead!), but do you remember anything from the game with me-scum?

[DeasVail]

Oh yes, I forgot to ask. 4nx, could you provide a link to a game where Rach is different as town? (Or if there's one in thread already just point me to it)

[DeasVail]

Why 4nx?

[DeasVail]

hi

Hey! How's it going?

[DeasVail]

Hmm, 4nx, should I vote for Rach?

[DeasVail]

He's trying to seem like he has consistent scumreads

What makes you think this?

[DeasVail]

Because I imagine that there is an actual reason for the vote other than lololol wagon.

Why didn't you answer my question?

[DeasVail]

Is that a bad thing?

Also, who am I sheeping?

[DeasVail]

Oh, I think I see what you mean.

Would you have a problem with me sheeping 4nx and voting for you?

[DeasVail]

Both I think.

[DeasVail]

Part of me wanted to see what reactions (whether from 4nx or others) came from it. Part of me was bored and just felt like it.

[DeasVail]

And rach, please answer my question in 1354 when you can.

[DeasVail]

N, why were you gone for so long? I missed you

Equinox/anyone else I guess:

How confident are you in Rach-town? Is there more to it than KoC and Gamma voting for her? Because looking back over it now, Gamma had already voted for KoC, so if he was willing to bus one partner, then why not another? The KoC vote I agree is a bit unlikely, but it's not like he really tries to get her lynched.

[DeasVail]

N, why were you gone for so long? I missed you

[DeasVail]

If you want to lynch someone, yes, you should be convinced they're scum.

[DeasVail]

N:

Can you do something really town for me please?

[DeasVail]

Hmm, I don't think N likes me.

[DeasVail]

Deas, can you turn up the heat you are little tough to read currently?

I don't think I really have the energy for more heat right now. I started to write a song called "I'm so town" but lyrics take time you know?

But really you don't need to bother reading me or anything, just trust that I'm town.

[DeasVail]

Also, I think N ignoring me may be scummy in this case, but I'm not actually sure. Thoughts?

[DeasVail]

Greygnarl, well yeah, that's kind of the point.

Equinox, Bitmap loves being scum. I don't think he'd have replaced out if he was. Also his play was consistent with what I expect from Bitmap-town, and greygnarl has said some town things too I think.

[DeasVail]

N, why were you gone for so long? I missed you

Equinox/anyone else I guess:

How confident are you in Rach-town? Is there more to it than KoC and Gamma voting for her? Because looking back over it now, Gamma had already voted for KoC, so if he was willing to bus one partner, then why not another? The KoC vote I agree is a bit unlikely, but it's not like he really tries to get her lynched.

N, why were you gone for so long? I missed you

N:

Can you do something really town for me please?

Hmm, I don't think N likes me.

[DeasVail]

Was avoiding any of the questions deliberate (saying yes is fine by the way)?

And, what do you think I should have thought of the above?

[DeasVail]

Well yeah, that would have been nice.

Although I think that when I asked that I had noticed you were posting in a lot of other games but not here, and was wondering why. Also, you said that I hadn't asked any questions, so I thought you may not have noticed them.

[DeasVail]

The fact that I quoted it kind of means I wanted something out of it, unless you thought I was just really desperate for you to declare your undying love for me or something.

The town thing... well don't you want to me think that you're town?

[DeasVail]

Eh, I doubt he'd make it up as scum.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: N

I actually have no idea who to vote for.

Scumread contest anyone?

[DeasVail]

Sure. Are hints allowed? If yes, talk to me about your scum play. Also, are all of your completed games on your wiki?

I don't know what you mean here, but anything's allowed if it means you enter! Also, I just updated it a couple of days ago, so my wiki should have all completed games except for alts and hydras.

Also, I see where you're going with the greygnarl thing, but as I've said, the slot has been otherwise pretty town to me. If I had a dream, I don't think I'd necessarily stick to it and his reasoning for Jarvis-scum wasn't too great anyway.

BUT, I've been really stupid.

Vote: Staeg

Jarvis is probably town, I'm beginning to think N is town, and I

might

be town, so let's lynch Staeg?

[DeasVail]

[DeasVail]

What is the deadline anyway?

[DeasVail]

Mod:

Could deadline be extended until prods are given/replacement for Seastorm is found?

[DeasVail]

I bet Seastorm can make it to 40 XD

[DeasVail]

Glad to hear he's doing better Rach.

[DeasVail]

And thanks Gamma for filling in!

[DeasVail]

Why scum-jarvis?

[DeasVail]

Not particularly amazing. I think lynching from grey's dream is the best idea.

[DeasVail]

Hmm... Serious vote or reaction test?

[DeasVail]

A reaction test. Those are fun.

[DeasVail]

Unspectacularly, but it was a bit unfair. I would've done much better if you'd just told me it was a reaction test from the beginning.

[DeasVail]

My reaction would have been most entertaining, well for me anyway.

[DeasVail]

Not sure if Reck shot MattP or Shamrock.

I'm pretty sure he shot Shamrock.

[DeasVail]

Equinox, how likely do you think it is that scum shot Shamrock and Reck shot Matt?

PV, I'll answer your first Q after Equinox, but about the night kill thing, I don't know. It probably depends on who the scum are. I really don't see the point in going out of your way to kill

one

person that suspects you, but I've seen town with great reads killed a lot, so I don't know.

Some of your examples were iffy, but I think generally it was ok. I didn't agree with myself being a suspicion of Mehdi though, and there are probably one or two others where you used someone asking a question as suspicion, which I don't think is very good considering my thoughts on NK analysis anyway.

N, if Jarvis did shove himself into the dream, what is your theory behind the number?

[DeasVail]

I want your answer.

Well I didn't really think Shamrock was a scumkill, and Matt made much more sense to me.

Also, Reck was actually voting for Shamrock Day 1 and didn't express any suspicion of Matt, so I think we can probably assume he killed him.

Now how likely did you think it was?

[DeasVail]

xRECKONERx had answered it himself a while back.

Did you remember this?

[DeasVail]

After thinking about it, I don't really think the dream number thing is a good reason for Jarvis-scum. I just don't really see why scum would see the need to change the number of people in the dream?

[DeasVail]

4nx, is it just what you posted recently or is there more to it?

[DeasVail]

-You know that exactly one player receives a Dream each night (unless the previous Day phase ended in a No Lynch), and that that this player is randomly selected from the pool of Sleeping players.

[DeasVail]

Jarvis, why don't you want to lynch from grey's dream?

[DeasVail]

I know that, but I'm still interested in his answer.

[DeasVail]

Actually also Jarvis, a read on N would be awesome.

[DeasVail]

I want to know if his read has changed.

[DeasVail]

Yeah.. I still think Jarvis is town. Could you pretty please answer my questions though?

4nx, I disagree with the stuff about him saying he wouldn't tie himself to a mislynch.

[DeasVail]

Why aren't you voting for him/pushing us to lynch him then?

I think I've seen similar done by both town and scum, but they were under heavy pressure when it happened, so yeah... I don't know.

[DeasVail]

With yourself being in greygnarl's dream, wouldn't you prefer to lynch from there?

[DeasVail]

If you had your way, would we be lynching N or 4nx?

[DeasVail]

Ok, I don't really have good reasoning for it, but generally I think Jarvis' play as town and here are some little things:

-Kondi's hydra attack
-Attitude to the Konowa lynch
-Asking for people to look town in 1314.
-Staeg wagon hop pretty unnecessary for scum.
-Reaction to getting wagoned I guess I could go either way, but I think it's town.

I still want to lynch Staeg.

[DeasVail]

Hi Nacho!

Also,

Hi, I dreamt.

greygnarl, Jarvis, PV, DV,

KoC

,

Konowa

, N.

At least one of the above is scum. More in a moment.

I had a dream guise
Petapan
Shiidaj
4nxi3ty
Seastorm

Konowa

^at least one scum over there
Konowa sounds as good as anything

vote: konowa

DeasVail
Jarvis
N
Staeg

It doesn't say they are scum. It just gave their names.

[DeasVail]

I mean, if I were scum, it'd be the same guy with the same group of townies, for the most part.
They'd eventually find him, but it'd be one scum for like 4-5 lynches, which minimizes damage pretty efficiently.

What do you mean?

[DeasVail]

Nacho, do you know the method behind dream creation?

[DeasVail]

I thought it was random. What do you think it is?

[DeasVail]

Eh, I thought it'd be something like randomly determine no. of scum/no. of town, then randomly determine the dream, no idea as to number though. N, Jarvis and I only appeared in two dreams, and it didn't seem that unlikely.

I assume you think scum choose it?

[DeasVail]

Everyone:

Is this something painfully obvious that only I missed?

[DeasVail]

If possible, I'd like what other people thought of how dreams were created as well.

[DeasVail]

Hmmm

Vote: Nachomamma8

[DeasVail]

I could.

[DeasVail]

Ugh, never mind. Forget you saw anything.

Unvote: Nacho

Vote: Staeg

I don't really think we should lynch Jarvis though.

[DeasVail]

Jarvis, unvote so we don't look suspect anymore and let's just kill Nacho tonight.

[DeasVail]

What if the doc protects him from you guys?

We have a strongman kill obv.

[DeasVail]

Jarvis case

[DeasVail]

What made you suspect Jarvis?

[DeasVail]

What's the dream analysis you're referring to?

[DeasVail]

How does the dream analysis incriminate Jarvis over anyone else that's been in a dream?

[DeasVail]

But we already have one scum from the first dream...

[DeasVail]

But there's no guarantee that there's another scum, so it kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion.

What do you think of Jarvis' play?

[DeasVail]

Hmm, I'll reread 4nx. Stuff that may be significant:

-316: I've kind of been gong back and forth over this, but I guess I'm leaning town because I feel that the reason he provides is less likely to be attempted by scum.

-I think the vote switching in response to Staeg in 490 is townish. Maybe less so if Staeg is scum.

-765 is a pretty weak push on KoC.

-I feel like 1153 is too obvious(?) for scum. His reaction to our votes seemed kind of town too.

Hmm, I think I'll probably vote 4nx, but if anyone thinks any of the town things above is particularly significant or otherwise wants to switch to Staeg, let me know. I'd prefer 4nx over Jarvis though.

[DeasVail]

N, what do you think of Staeg?

Also, I'm considering Rach, but I kind of like the idea of lynching from a dream so I don't know.

[DeasVail]

Actually,

Unvote: Staeg

Vote: Rach

Also Nacho, I forgot to answer, but I didn't see anything when I voted for 4nx. It was mostly just to see what happened.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: Rach

Vote: 4nxi3ty

[DeasVail]

My preference would be to just leave it as it is, and lynch someone else.

[DeasVail]

2 hours I think

[DeasVail]

I'm not on Rach anymore.

[DeasVail]

Are scum-created counterwagons even a thing?

I've never had scumbuddies who created a counterwagon for me...

[DeasVail]

You've never had any good scumbuddies, I guess.

Well I wouldn't expect them to, that's the thing.

But anyway,

I softclaim a lot as town PR, so I don't really know about that.

PEdit: Oh well.

[DeasVail]

I want to read over a few things and see a dream before deciding anything, but I agree with staeg-scum at this point.

[DeasVail]

Hi....

Oh that's better: Hi greygnarl!

[DeasVail]

Welcome back! I hope things are ok.

[DeasVail]

Vote: Staeg

[DeasVail]

Wait, was it Nacho or not?

I agree about Rach, but maybe she would say her role? I found other aspects of her play pretty odd, so I wouldn't discount it. The other thing that came to mind was that it allowed some sort of dream alteration, but it doesn't really matter since I'm pretty sure this is not bastard.

[DeasVail]

How would it have let her live?

[DeasVail]

The staeg case is that you and Jarvis are probably town.

[DeasVail]

PV, I did it because I wanted to see what came from it? I guess I thought it was also a pretty townish thing to do.

Peta, I thought Nacho's post with the sad face indicated he was serious, and I wouldn't be surprised if the dream was large considering the previous two were mod errors. Confirmation would be good though. Also,

[DeasVail]

The thought that someone including themselves in the dream is a towntell is no longer really valid I think.

Also, it really looked like a joke to me the first time he said it.

[DeasVail]

Actually should we massclaim?