Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[Duplicity]

Hi, Shift here. Haven't gotten a chance to talk to Reg yet but hopefully he'll be on soon. Quick note about our hydra, I'll sign my posts as Shift and Regfan will probably try to do the same. He normally forgets though, so if you see an unsigned post chances are it's him.

Quil's last posts are terrible and I'm liking Zdenek so far, that's about all I have for the moment.

VOTE: Quilford

-Shift

PEdit: Uber you probably should have clarified that or chosen a better RVS.

God every time I'm about to hit submit there's more posts.

[Duplicity]

Interesting catch, Tierce. I never would have noticed it.

Dramonic's theory makes sense but I don't have flavor knowledge as I've only played FE7+8

Tammy drawing attention to herself is bad but good chance of frustrated town thus a bad vote, Uber keeping his vote on Tammy is unlikely to be intentional (What would have have to gain from this as scum? Tammy's unlikely to get quicklynched, he'd have to move it or unvote sooner or later), etc. etc. I'm pretty sure this has already been said.

Tierce/Spyre have said too much for me to wrap my head around right now, I'll try to go over them more closely later but for now I just looked over them.

Zdenek's posts have been excellent but I'm going to hold off on a Hinduragi vote after thinking over it because I think his #286 is decent with the exception of his Nikanor push. Even though I agree with Nikanor's posts being unhelpful I feel like they're more of an attempt to try something different and not necessarily scum.

So I'm going to VOTE: Implosion who I know has had time to read/post yet has failed to do so, it's ridiculous how little (if any) content has been given by the majority of the players.

Reg is still MIA.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Ok, back from vacation and taking over the reigns again because Shift is all kinds of bad. Apologies for the fact that this is a wall, I can't help myself.

Strong town reads:

- I think both Tierce and Glork are town, their soft-claims come across as fairly genuine and Tierces entire 'I'm not defending shit-town anymore' makes a lot of sense given other things and is a stance I can very much see her taking as town. Plus the fact that her frustration, anger and reaction towards the wagon on her comes across as very town. I also like Glorks push and turn-a-round on Tierce, it ressembles what I know of his town-play almost to the tee and his explanation of why soft-claiming is benefitical seems very much thought through ie. "Scum aren't going to be able to narrow down it to X" making it optimal to softclaim.

- The Tammy wagon is wrong, I know where it's coming from but it's just wrong. I've played with her quite a bit off-site and while Tammy is a very analytical player she reacts poorly towards being voted or suspected as town, it's just her M-O she tends to consider each vote on her as an insult in some form and her emotional outburst is extremely town. Also the "You're so awesome at reading me" to SpyreX is explained enough by her mention of SpyreX misreading her previously in #82 and actually makes quite a bit of sense.

- Also Alchemists is town, his meta shift and statement of it is a massive town-tell given that him recognizing that he's read as town easily as either faction in the past and changing from that means that he's less concerned with peoples read and opinion on him and more concerned with how much he's actually helping re; scumhunting. Plus his research into the validity of Quilfords statement in #41 is a strong town tell. On top of that I like his push on Ludi even though I think the way he's going about doing it is bad.

- I think Quilford is town and think a lot of the heat he got initially was completely undeserved, while his RVS-style reads list was bad his explanation of 'He did it very succesfully in Animal Rescue' and that he was attempting to get reactions from it is incredibly genuine and town as is his comment of "Arg didn't want to get this aggressive this early".

- Also Dramonics reaction towards Glork/Tierces soft-claim of "stop fucking claim ect. ect." comes across as genuine and town and Gammas instant mentioning of the win conditions and how mass-claim fits into it alongside with his reads are town. I've found myself agreeing with a lot of Zdeneks posts and able to follow his logic and though process very easily. I find that one of the strongest town-tells there is because although scum can fake a lot of things putting themselves exactly in a town mindset is the hardest.

Weak Town Reads

- I think SpyreX is town but it's a weaker read then the rest of mine and mostly revolves around his push on Tammy seems to be something that he genuinely believes in and his comments about scum-team size/roles that scum need to eliminate are somewhat town. I'm honestly not sure on Haze, his posts read as fairly hollow to me but Shift mentioned he had a town-read on him to me earlier when I was just about to start reading through the thread so he can explain it later.

- I'm in two minds about UN. I can understand the wagon on him for his 'Tammy is town' while voting Tammy and his shitty votes at game-start but at the same time I don't really attribute either of those to him as massive scum-tells and I find his explanation of it alongside with him going the whole "I derped, are you after scum or a derp" as town on a gut level and although I hate hate hate using gut reads I don't think the wagon on him is the best thing right now.

Scum Reads

- Toastys entrance post is terrible, it's just an attack on the three players who had the most heat so far in the game (Tierce/Tammy/UN) with him stating suspicion on all three of them and not commenting on anyone else whatsoever. His follow up post didn't do anything to sway me otherwise, his comments read as very forced and contrived.

- Singers "Tammy is obviously town" while voting Tammy and not unvoting after it was mentioned with the "I want them dead anyway" defence is infinitly worse than UN's, not defending a strong-town read because you think they're bad is one thing and somewhat understandable but voting and contributing towards their lynch rather than actually scumhunting is another thing all together and reads as an attempt to allow herself to be on nearly any weak players wagon while doing little else. Not experienced much with Singer to know if this is something she does often as scum/town though so if anyone wants to let me know it'd be nice.

- Nexus's introduction post is also bad, honestly reads as if he's only read the first 2-3 pages of the thread thrown in "Zdenek has made sense" because of it and jumps on a weaker player that has attained votes recently.

- While I like the fact that LLD jumps in and calls out the Tammy wagon for what it is; shit. I don't like the fact that her sole attempt to scumhunt is based of looking at the wagon votes rather than looking or commenting on anything else, it comes across as scum attempting to take the easy way out by saying 2 of this group of people are scum and I will focus on them only!

- I think Ludi is scum and from what I gathered Shift agrees, Ludis posts have been very fluff/fillerish with a lot of his questions and focus not really looking as if he's scumhunting but rather just attempting to appear as if he's contributing. His push on Timeater is also terrible and comes across as an OMGUS on a weaker player that's suspecting him. I want SpyreX's town-read on him explained.

- Oversoul is someone I have an interesting read on, his play has really been him saying 'do stuff later' which although is something I can understand is something that seems unneeded given the fact the game only started so recently. Also I found the phrasing of 'one MAYBE two people stood out as townies that need their hand held' as incredibly awkward. Also Shift thinks Hindurg/Nikandor have a decent shot of being scum and I'll look at them and talk with him a bout it later.

Unvote, Vote: Toasty

Ludi, Singer and Oversoul are all decent votes too though.

[Duplicity]

You haven't even read my post at all, it's not humanly possible to read everything I wrote there in 2 minutes and then reply, you've just skimmed looked for your name and gone "omg i never said i'm only focusing on-wagon" when your ISO shows that's exactly what you've done thus far.

If you have reads elsewhere then talk about them, or discuss where you think I'm right/wrong on other players.

[Duplicity]

Alchemist, Glork is town, I'm very confident in that so your back-and-forth with him is just wasting time and creating clutter.

Glork, this is what Timeater is like as town. Read 1 or 2 of your games and you'll notice so.

Why is it pro-town to post other reads at the moment when I'm focused on a pretty clear scum lynch in UberNinja?

Eh, I've seen this stance before and I strongly disagree with it, that being I think the more information that players reveal about their reads the easier it is to understand what they're thinking and the easier it is to get a read on them. I also think by stating your reasoning and reads you allow players to have a chance to point out flaws in them or agree with them allowing you to either strengthen your reads or re-asses where you're likely wrong.

I also think you're wrong about UN but am having trouble explaining exactly why. I really would like it if you stated some other reads though.

[Duplicity]

Alchemist, the longer your vote remains on Glork the more baby Jesus weeps.

@Duplicity: Why do I need to comment on other people in my first post of the game? What about focussing on three people who were already being highly discussed is bad? I already explained that I think there is a connection between the three, and whether or not they were seen as the most suspicious at the time is irrelevant. If I see three people and find their actions between each other suspicious, then I'm going to focus on them. Not to mention that its the

first

post I made. There's no way I'm going to have enough information for every single player, nor would going through every single player be worthwhile, as it would look something like this:

leaning scum: UN, Tammy, Tierce null: everyone else.

Okay 1) Stating that their connection is 'weird' can be said about almost any 3 players if you pull them up so you attempting to use that as further reasoning behind why your reads on them is good is stupid. 2) The players you had scum-reads on had wagons on them, stating you suspect them and jumping on is what scum can do easily because it doesn't really put them in the spotlight and allows them to move from a large wagon to another large wagon if needed and 3) Stating that you'd have NO reads elsewhere at all is bullshit, you're saying that you'd have no scum/town inklings whatsoever which is near impossible.

If someone know there meta, then they can manipulate. Thats the main problem I have with all the BS meta defenses people are getting this game.

I've heard this logic used a lot, it's wrong. While a person can change their meta it's hard to do so genuinely.

Bee Tee Dubs, UN, note that Alchemist is the omission of his top three. I swear to god, if Toasty dies as scum, Alchemist is getting lynched/vigged immediately.

You're missing the context. His 3 scum reads of Tammy/UN/Tierce were created about 8ish or so pages ago when there was no wagon on Alchemist meaning his scum-reads were on the wagons that occurred then, not now meaning there's no connection between his FoS's and Alchemist.

[Duplicity]

Toasty, suspecting one player that has a wagon on them is something I understand sSince generally a player has to be scummy to attain a wagon however suspecting ONLY three players and ALL three of those players being the lead vote-getters reads as scum jumping on any of the wagon-eees and not scumhunting. Also it's possible for scum to change their meta. But it's not easy, it's actually incredibly difficult to change your meta and make it genuine and believable.

Alchemist, I've searched. But no. You're wrong on Glork. Him throwing his weight around and jumping on a player to just end up doing a-turn-around on them like he did with Tierce matches his town play to a tee and his actual willingness to hesitate and consider that he's wrong about you and that your aggression and phrasing of things was more-so a player-style-tell rather than anything else should be more than enough proof that he's town; As scum he can easily attribute whatever actions you've done to pure 'scumminess' rather than anything else and his vote on Toasty isn't 'predatory' by any means, it's merely voting someone for dropping a rather significant scum-tell (Only suspecting players who have wagons already). Anyway cutting down on posting is a good idea.

Ludi, Timeater is a player that often drops logic and goes after gut a lot as well as throwing himself into the lime-light, it's something that makes him attacked by scum a lot more because they wrongly consider him as mslynch material which isn't actually the case because he normally town-tells enough at the end of the day to prevent the lynch. And no the amount of real solid information or thoughts to fluff in your ISO is little.

Also I found the phrasing of 'one MAYBE two people stood out as townies that need their hand held' as incredibly awkward.

In what way?

In the way that the usage of 'townies' rather than 'players' made me pause on it. I pointed it out to Shift and said I thought it was you slipping and he agreed it's a weird phrasing but didn't think it was a slip and that I was associating more strength to it then it deserved. It's trivial now though because I've found your last few posts specifically the talk about win-conditions and the reasoning behind your scum read on Tierce as town-tells though I think your scum read on Tierce is ignoring a great deal of things that make her fairly obvtown including her reaction/genuiness to being voted alongside her unpromopted soft-claim.

Glork, this is what Timeater is like as town. Read 1 or 2 of your games and you'll notice so.

Didn't you JUST say that Tim is read as town as either alignment when playing by his old meta?

Yes, his scum play is by no means weak (I tried to go hunting for a scum game of his to explain this but they all seem to have been tiger eaten except one where he never even posted) however there's a difference between his town and scum play in terms of how much he throws himself out there, as town he really cares very little about his appearance and attacks whoever he thinks is scum regardless of the consequences (Example: Glork/SpyreX).

[Duplicity]

Why are you limiting it to scum? I am town, find his play to be highly weird and scummy for which I've detailed, and have presented reasons why.

It's not limited to scum but it is more common from scum than town. I found most of your reasoning for him being scum to be complete shit.

And, Can you actually prove the bolded statement above, because I am calling baloney on it. Then, I would like you to show me the multitude of other players who actually fit your standards.

Sure. I find throwing yourself in to be active but not actually taking many stances or stating many reads or conclusions to be one of the bigger scum-tells there is, because it generally comes from scum that don't want to be called 'lurkers' and voted for that and they seem to think that throwing in a question here and there and commenting on something that is useless (ie. UN's RVS vote) to be town-tells when they're not. #62, #240, #318, #329, #331, #373, #379, #452, #462 are the only posts of yours that I'd consider as decent or legimtimate, the rest are mostly commenting on miniscule things and asking questions that lead towards no analsis or conclusion. That's 10/38 posts and most of those are just vote/FoS posts.

Truthfully, there's probably 2-3 other players that also have done similar things but none of them to the extent you have.

This looks manufactured totally. What are you even talking about here.

I thought it was fairly self-explanatory but I guess not. I find Oversouls "You shouldn't be confused since you'd have the town win condition so you know which is the scum one" angle of questioning to be a relatively decent town-tell, it's not an angle I see him looking for and pressing as scum and that combined which his reasoning for suspecting Tierce making some sense makes me lean lean towards him being town.

[Duplicity]

I'm feeling marginally better about Toasty, while I don't think his wall post screams town by any means I can understand a lot of his other thoughts and really like him stating he thinks Glork-Alchemist is T v T especially since looking at how this is going Alchemist is the likely counterwagon to him.

MoI's angle of attack attack on SpyreX is incredibly town though I like SpyreX's response a lot and don't exactly thing the "I'm not good at scum ect. ect" is anywhere near as strong a scum-tell as MoI seems to believe it is. Implosions post especially the later part of it including him saying that Alchemist is scum is bad. It's the sort of stance I see him taking as scum, leaving himself open to the option of jumping to that wagon if the Toasty one was to dissolve whereas I think as town he'd be seeing the exact same thing we are about why Alchemist is town.

Oh god Alchemist. I sat down and thought 'oh awesome, dot points that I can go through and explain to you exactly where you're wrong' but really your post isn't anything ressembling a case against Glork. His vote on you for #380 is somewhat understandable given he has no meta on you and that your post was trash, was fluff and was in a structure that's not commonly used. Post #386 of yours was similar in that the way you formated and went through your points were awful. Also the difference between Glork attacking you here and scum in the past is that Glork stopped and considered that perhaps your posts were more-so playerstyle related than anything else which #399 shows. He didn't respond to your points there because he was waiting on peoples responses to whether this is just your meta or if you're flailing scum, when he got his answer he backed of a bit.

Duplicity, Magna/Magua, Glork, what's the justice wagons?

Ludi/Singer/LLD/Hind/Implosion/Nexus. You should ISO them at least and let me know what you think about them too.

Unvote, Vote: Ludi

[Duplicity]

Oversoul is town, voting him can only be explained by "Policy" and policy lynches are stupid. While the fact that he gambit-ed an obvtown player is bad he showed a relatively decent explanation of why he thought she was mafia and this is the sort of play I expect from him - if you want to see him doing similar things you just have to browse through his past games; I remember him doing voting gambits/gimmicks in a 3 way in one of them as town as well.

Get the wagon of him and back onto people who might actually be scum. Going to read others reactions to this in some more depth later.

[Duplicity]

Any post that doesn't have a - Shift at the bottom of it is Regfan, so yes.

[Duplicity]

UN, Glork already unvoted and I believe his frustration to be sincere. It seems to be going a bit far as scum if he's faking it, and this isn't even mentioning the claims. Glork is pretty obvtown. Melodramatic or not, he's obviously not having fun right now and you can't berate him for wanting to think it over.

And good, now that Oversoul isn't getting wagoned put some votes on the people that need them-Ludi/Implosion are the ones that immediately come to mind.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Regfan/Duplicity, do you expect this coming from Glork?

Expect? Probably not. Understand? Yes. He's gotten a lot of shit in his games - being FoS'ed for being alive, being lynched for it to some degree (Scummies Winvitational) so I can understand why he's finding this game un-fun due to it not helped by the fact that the day-kill gimmick really is something that I too despise.

--

Anyway, here's where we are sitting right now:

Town (S->W):

Glork, Alchemist, Tierce, Zdenek, MoI, Tammy, Oversoul, Gamma, UN, Nikanor (Large gap), DDD, TSH, Dramonic, Quilford, Oman, Haze, SpyreX.

Null:

Math, Grey, Wyrd.

Scum (S->W):

Ludi, Implosion, Singer, LLD, Hinduragi, Nexus, Kats, Toasty.

[Duplicity]

I want to say something but I don't know if it will actually be helpful for the town to know :\

As much as I hate to be a douche I think we've had enough of this for one gameday. Keep it to yourself for now.

@Zdenek, although eager to jump on an Ikelynch we agree isn't the best reasoning, the OS votes in general are terrible, the Katsuki vote reads more as a pressure vote, and it's likely Glork's judgment is clouded. Regfan and I both find the majority of his posts very town. I think it's best that we wait for him to cool down a bit and then lay down a new vote if he chooses to stay. Of course, this excuse is only valid for so long.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

RegDup

I meant to ask you this last night when you posted your reads list. Will you read Post 844, re-read MoI's ISO, and then tell me how you have a strong town read on them? kthnxbai!

Sure. I don't find the 'looking for holes to exploit future mslynches' point is anywhere near as strong as you're treating it. If he was after creating future mslynches he wouldn't be chipping away towards Glork when there's a large amount of weaker and more suspected players in the playerlist. Similarly I find his push towards SpyreX/Tierce combination to be a town-tell because I know Magua likes taking easy lynches out as scum whereas as town he's not opposed to pushing stronger players if he has a legitimate reason to FoS them.

I don't like his first post and the questions in it specifically the DDD/Glork ones are weak but at the same time it's the sort of questions that I'd expect those two to ask on entrance in a game pretty much regardless of their alignment. In regards to #534 I really liked his Ludi read as it meshed with mine when I was reading through and while I don't agree with his SpyreX read I found their angle of reasoning to be quite logical - especially his point about the sole focus seeming to be a push on something exploitable. I do however want the following answered from them:

People this head thinks are good votes at this stage –

Singersinger

– the play here has just been terrible. A large bunch of quotes for comment later then no comment with “I don’t like Mafia right now” comments? Calling us the most obvious scum along with Spyrex yet keeping a vote parked on Tammy? Later ‘forgetting’ how I’m scum (see Post 464)? I am just not seeing any Town in her play.

Not sure where Magua stands on this other than knowing he doesn’t think any of the above are Town.

@Shmugen:

There is no way, no how, that singersigner-scum comes into this game with those posts that she did. They have derptown written all over them. The posts are terrible, but they are not scum.

What about her original posts changed from ‘Scum worthy of a vote’ to ‘No way no how scum’. I get that her recent posts (Last 3ish or so) have come across as somewhat townish and have weakened my scum read of her but that’s not what you’ve said.

[Duplicity]

Also I'm not getting the GI wagon at all. While nothing of his strikes me as a strong town-tell I understand his push on Kats and don't find it scummy.

Sidenote: Nexus/Implosion are much much better vig shots right now.

[Duplicity]

Also Alchemist; Dramonic is town, useless town that's focusing on flavour far too much. But still town. His reaction and annoyance towards people claiming is genuine and his interactions with Ludi don't work as partners. Plus while his 'i dont scumhunt i catch scum' line is stupid, it's moreso a snarky town-tell than anything else.

[Duplicity]

Nothing changed about her posts. This head believes bad play tends to be town. Other head doesn't (lolhydradissonance).

I know that you treat bad-play as a town-tell, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that MoI said " I don't know where Magua stands other than that he doesn't read them as town" then you say you read them as town. So did you never discuss Singer at the time that MoI made that post?

Meta is the only reliable scumhunting tool.

Absolutely false. And a meta sample size of two is not near enough to get an adequate read on someone, especially if you do happen to be town and you think you're even close to being informed enough to read me as not town right now. I don't care what things you think you can read from my play style, as I know how incomplete your knowledge actually is. And considering the fact that I've been town in the past games we've played together, and am in fact town right now, there's nothing to tell me.

Couldn't care less about proving my point by referencing scum games. I've actually only played scum twice, so I don't even really have scum meta out there. I'm just telling you don't have enough information on me to read me adequately, and if you think you do then...

Ok, whether it's false or not is irrelevant (For the record it's not false, meta is what leads to or is the basis of nearly all reads) this is an argument that Magua has stood by game in and game out regardless of his alignment which means that he's going to use whatever meta he has however small it is to try and read you based on, sure it's incomplete information but him attempting to do so is not a scum-tell, not even close to it. Also being cheeky is Maguas M-O though he's very bad at it.

[Duplicity]

I'd agree with there likely being a few scum in the lurkers, don't think the AV-Pere hydra is one of them though. But Implo/Nexus can die. Kats too.

Tammy, lets not get too far off-topic but the gist of it is that while 2 games isn't a large sample size if I have 2 games of meta on someone that's what I'm going to be drawing from to read them based on or comparing them to so MoI doing that in regards to you is understandable. Also I don't think Magua is claiming that he's certain of his read on you at all, MoI might be but he's generally always super-confident. + I don't think they're 'stopping there', to put it bluntly I think a lot of their aim was to get you to post more content/readable information, that you've done, therefore they have more to asses on when re-reading you later. I'd agree about them completely dropping their SpyreX read being..odd given the sheer amount of depth they went into with it. But at the same time I have a town-read on SpyreX and a scum read on Ludi who they're voting with me so I'm not super bothered by it right now.

[Duplicity]

Oh. Fate, while you're here and actually posting legibly for once your read on LLD would be lovely.

[Duplicity]

I had a good discussion with Shift earlier, he's insistent on changing to Implosion and thinks that Implosions #1137 is complete garbage. He finds that the push that it would be more natural to finish the reads than to get upset that you're being wagoned for something you've already explained is ridiculous. He also thinks that implosions entire play so far has been lackluster and doesn't think he'd play like this as town. I'm very inclined to agree and think that Toast comes of far better in the whole implosion-Toast discussion with Implosions #1163 and #1666 being the worst offenders. They both look as if he's bickering with someone in a fashion that he's trying to convince them he's not scum while insisting that they are. It's something I see scum doing a lot more than town.

I really like Toastys recent content and contribution and while it's bad that this sort of effort only came up when he's wagoned I find it coming across as town.

Also peoples scum-reads on DDD are something that I don't follow at all. DDD just sheeping someone he knows to be competent isn't a scum-tell for him, espcially not this early on in the game when one vote alone is worth less whereas votes compiled actually lead somewhere.

Unvote, Vote: Implosion

Free cookies for those who join.

[Duplicity]

Sorry, got caught up with a lot of other stuff all weekend and never actually got around to assigning time for this game. Not many of my reads have changed much. Still not a fan of the MoI wagon and Toasty is town so his wagon is worse. I do feel better about Hind being town though and want Nexus vigged even more now.

PS: Still giving out free cookies to those who join us on Implosion.

I said it earlier:

this isn't the main reason that i voted toasty.

I voted him because of prior suspicion, and because the dramonic wagon stalled. That was really just something that I wanted to see toasty respond to. It was part of me revoting him, a very small part.

I know that this isn't your only reason for voting him but that doesn't change that I find your change along with your comments still coming across as incredibly contrived. Also your meta is pointless in this case because the biggest issue we're having with your play isn't so much about the quantity of your posts but rather the content and reads don't seem genuine and you haven't shown any real intention to consider your reads on a deeper level. For instance your suspicion of Alchemist earlier was terrible, we then said we don't think you could read him like that as town and see it as you setting up for a wagon-jump on him if it arisen as mafia, you then said Alchemist-town but no explanation between any of the thought processes.

[Duplicity]

Pretty much what Oversoul said. Toastys reaction and contribution to being wagoned and pressured comes across as very genuine town.

[Duplicity]

Ludi, I don't see your scum read on TSH. Their hydra-planning talk came across as town and 'convincing people' of doing anything isn't necessarily what I expect D1 in a large game like this from Pere at all. Also them re-asking about the town-read on Toasty is understandable given they had a scum-read on you.

If you want me to justify a townread, ask.

You can do one better for me. Explain your prior scum-read on Alchemist, then explain what exactly changed your mind and shifted it towards a town-read.

[Duplicity]

Hi, will probably do a more indepth post later but for now I'm just dropping off our main two FoS's.

Code: Select all

Implosion
Ludi

Cookie for Implovote offer is still valid.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Only have a few minutes now but;

Also, while I'm here, it's the close-knit meta that Regfan, Gamma and I share, which is why that's directed at Gamma solely, and not anyone else.

Gammagooey, Regfan and I have played together in a really, really large number of games, so I'm curious what Gammagooey thinks of that read.

I'm only a young girl and know little of the ways of war

I am having severe difficulty recollecting these games, from memory I've only played with Gamma twice on MS and I don't think you were in either game. The only other thing I can think you're talking about is EM but I fail to see the relevance of it given that I remember zero of his play there and I assume he'll remember just as little of mine or yours.

Also Tammy and Alchemist, your bickering is a complete waste of time. You're both town, so please quit it out.

[Duplicity]

Glad to see most of the votes have started coming of MoI and onto Implosion. We should be aiming to have a lynch by this weekend at latest.

Magua, you should join me on Implosion and we can deal look into Ludi in a little more detail tomorrow, there's a few smallish things that are making me somewhat uncertain on him right now and I don't think the 'meta-attack' on him holds that much weight since I've seen him play scum quite strongly in Walrus Mafia and this isn't looking anything like that game either. The thing that's bothering me about him the most right now is his 'point out everything I've done that is scummy, back up your accusations!' attitude he's having towards everyone that suspects him, I want to talk with Shift about it but I think I'm playing myself into a 'too scummy to be scum' sort of line about him. Also I find Omans aggression towards LLD as entirely un-alignment related.

Alchemist, while I don't like Nikanors vote-jump on MoI in Post 1466 his 'target me tonight', 'people that can scumhunt can read me' and earlier play all come across as very town. Also him claiming to have 'small meta-reasons' for Implosion being scum read as a town-tell too, albiet weaker.

Almost everything about Shmugens Post 1462 rubs me the wrong way and kills any town-read I was getting on that slot.

[Duplicity]

Also Quilford, you promised to post 3-4 days ago.

[Duplicity]

This is why Implosion should have been lynched yesterday. Given the speed that the Quilford wagon happened when Implosion was looking like the day's lynch it's very likely there are a lot of scum on it.

Neither myself nor Reg see Alchemist as scum or anything resembling a decent lynch. Toastytown is old news, and MoI doesn't need to fullclaim anytime soon especially since they said they're the head of a region. I plan on doing a bit of ISOing today/tomorrow to update my reads (Ex. My townreads on Haze slot/UN have largely died) before placing a vote, Reg might come in later and change that though.

I've only just started PoR and Regfan hasn't played any FE whatsoever so we're not going to bother with speculation other than to say if a combination of quality/quantity of posts factor into the count as Shmugen and I believe MoI suggested then UN/Alch aren't really doing us any favors with posts containing nothing but "umad"

-Shift

[Duplicity]

The implosion-scum flip solidified a lot of my town reads. Also as Shift said I'm fairly confident in a lot of scum being on the Quilford wagon to save what seemed to be the inevitable lynch on Implosion and while I normally dislike VCA I think it'll be highly telling in this specific case (Also no MoI, this doesn't mean that I want you spamming up all my future games asking me to comment on your VCA analysis). I've coloured in green my strong town reads and flipped confirmed town and scum. If you want a strong town read explained just ask though most of the reasons behind them I went through yesterday.

Spoiler: VC at day end with reads attached

Quilford

(LYNCH) ~

Alchemist, Glork

, Debonair Danny DiPietro,

Gammagooey

,

implosion

,

Wyrd

,

danakillsu

, singersigner, SpyreX,

Tierce

, Teleporting Speed Hippos,

Tammy

, GreyICE, Magister Ludi, Hinduragi

implosion (L-10)

~

Duplicity, ToastyToast,

Nikanor,

MaguaofIllusion

, Lady Lambdadelta

MaguaofIllusion

(L-12) ~ Katsuki, Oman, UberNinja

ToastyToast

(L-13) ~ Haze,

Quilford

Not Voting: Nexus, dramonic, Shmugen

So that leaves the scum on the wagon to include some of DDD, Singer, SpyreX, TSH, GI, Ludi, Hind. Of those I have weaker town reads on DDD, Singer, TSH and Hind though I'll need to assign time to re-read through them to make sure I'm not missing anything there. It means that there's very likely scum inside of Ludi, SpyreX and GreyICE though and that's probably the best place to lynch today. Of the wagon includes Nikanor, LLD, Kats, Oman, UN, Nexus, Dram and Shmugen. Of those I have weaker town reads on Nikanor, UN and Dram which means scum is probably inside of LLD (I remembered the timing of her implosion vote coming across as bad), Kats, Oman, Nexus and Shmugen. I'd probably prefer a lynch of LLD/Nexus in the off wagon players before anyone else there.

Vote: Ludi

(PS: See Magua, I'm not always wrong!)

[Duplicity]

I think it's fairly obvious that by 'off the wagon' I mean not on the Quilford lynch. The fact that you haven't seemed to grasp that makes me think you haven't read anything in my post other than your name again. And the timing issue I had with your vote on Implosion is exactly what you state, it was when Quilford was put at L1 and when it was literally impossible for anything to happen other than him to get lynched. And no, at that time the number of votes on both lynches were not even close, one was L-1 the other was L-11 so the fact that you wait for the difference in votes to be that extreme screams as a distancing vote.

[Duplicity]

Ludi, can you explain for me two things 1) Why you believed Implosion was a bad lynch in Post 1440 and 2) Why you stated that you'd ISO him in Post 1518 and never followed through on it. Also while you're at it post a summary of your reads for me.

LLD, again I don't see how you could have been confused about what my post was about unless you skimmed it especially since the vote count I was talking about was in the spoiler and looking at the other names mentioned as 'off' and 'on' wagon would have given away exactly what I was talking about. Regarding Hind though I remember Shift having a scum-read on him near game start and about that time in the game I didn't disagree with him however a lot of little things make me think he's town, for instance Post 834 is not something I see coming from scum and I like his strong town read on Alchemist.

[Duplicity]

The similaries are: Tammy, Singer, Tierce, Gamma, SpyreX, DDD, Wyrd, Alchemist, Ludi.

Tammy, Tierce, Alchemist, Gamma are obvtown, Wyrd is confirmed town. So put them to the side and you're left with Singer, SpyreX, DDD, Ludi.

[Duplicity]

MaguaOfIllusion and Glork, can the both of you explain in some detail what you think of LLD for me, please.

[Duplicity]

Ludi, I'd like my questions that I asked you earlier answered. Also I'd agree that scum are more likely in the middle-ish of the Quilford wagon then at the end but at the same time your 'scum would never join the end of a wagon that is an inevitable lynch when scums the counterwagon!' is something I strongly disagree with; with half the playerlist needed for a lynch scum need to either hope that almost the entire town jump on a mslynch or take serious part in it themselves. Had no more votes occurred lets say from L-4 onwards there's the chance the wagon can stall or be disbanded which isn't something scum want at all.

PS: Dana replaced Zdenek and thus is town or at least not somewhere worth exploring today.

[Duplicity]

Ludi, I get the angle you're trying to say the 'scum wouldn't get their hands dirty when they don't have to' and I can follow that however I don't think the Quilford lynch was propelled

that

fast just by townies and speaking in absolutes is where it's at. Also I led that D1 lynch in Walrus Mafia :/.

MoI, I haven't seen GI attempt to read LLD this game, or at least haven't seen his analysis of it. I'd love to see it though.

[Duplicity]

Alchemist, the joke element of Nikanors post feels awkward. Don't neccesarily think it's a strong tell either way though. The "Lynch Implosion and Wyrrd" comes across as a minor town-tell though and a lot of other posts of his also read as weak town-tells so he's not for lynching.

[Duplicity]

I think the only motivation was wanting to joke around, don't think there's anything deeper to it. If you're honestly leaning towards him being scum though I suggest you look specifically at Implosion/Niks interaction in Post 1525, Post 1526, Post 1527 and Post 1528 because that doesn't read like partners to me at all.

[Duplicity]

Lets see; scum: TSH, Oman, Dana, and Alchemist (though no one agrees with me on alchemist. Maybe at this point he's just annoyed me too much)
top town reads; SpyreX, Tierce, Glork, Toasty

I'm not sure what exactly you want and if you want more, but thats where i'm at.

Was hoping to see a little more reads but I'll settle for an explanation behind the Oman scum-read and the SpyreX town-read.

Anybody wanna lynch Nexus? Still not really understanding hte massive amount of Ludihate. Can someone please bullet-point the reasons he is scum?

I could certainly swing for Nexus but I'd want to talk to Shift about it first. Really the main reason I have for Ludi being scum is that a lot of his posting earlier in the game came across as unnatural and had a lot of fluff and filler, his attack and read on Alchemist comes across as contrived and he soft-pushed away from Implosion and Implosion did a similar thing towards Ludi. With that said I'm nowhere near confident in him being scum, in fact all my scum reads at this point are incredibly muddled up and I'm having trouble putting them in some form of order of strongest to weakest due to it. Pretty much here's where I am:

Strong Town Reads:

MoI, Glork, Alchemist, Tierce, Toasty, Tammy, Gamma, Nikanor, Dana, Hind, DDD.

Weak Town Reads (S->W):

Dramonic, TSH, Grey, Singer.

Null Reads:

Shmugen, UN, Oman, Avening, SpyreX.

Scum Reads:

LLD, Ludi, Nexus, Kats.

[Duplicity]

@ Duplicity Do you disagree with my points on him at that point in the game, or that anything I said in that particular post was incorrect? And also, he got up to 5 or 6 votes, so clearly there were and are people who agreed with me on that issue.

At no point have Reg and I had anything resembling a scumread on Alchemist. As for asking exactly what we didn't like about you/Implosion, there really isn't anything left to debate. We simply don't like your brief interaction with him.

See Reg's post on reads for the result of my skim, we have a few minor deviations but that's about it. Our scumreads are very cloudy at this point and we're more certain of our townreads. It isn't really helping when there are at least 6 people posting next to no content, but we're in agreement that Nexus is a much stronger vote than Ludi at this point.

VOTE: Nexus

-Shift

[Duplicity]

UN, the "I always read Gamma wrong and I read him as town so he must be scum" argument is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

@Duplicity

– if we are going to lynch an non-contributing lurker let’s make it Katsuki or Oman please.

Consider it somewhat meta but I think after Nexus's failure as scum in Ponybash this sort of play and lurking from him is exactly what he'd do as scum which makes him by far the best lynch inside the lurkers. I wouldn't oppose a Kats lynch either I suppose but I'm not feeling Oman-Scum right now, it's an incredibly weak reason but I found his "I haven't played for ages why are people sheeping me!" comment earlier a very slight town-tell. Also DDD is town, his back/forth with SpyreX is a town-tell.

An for oman scum, it's because he hasn't really DONE anything. His first couple posts contain a vote on Tierce and not much followup, and then he segue's into voting GreyICE and leaving his vote there until the MoI wagon comes roaring along. Even though he has 15 posts, none of them really do anything or attempt to convince the rest of the players in the game that who he is pushing on is scum, and I find that mentality and posting style more likely to come from scum than town.

I understand your SpyreX read and it's something I've been tossing up myself, I think overall I treat his whole 'I have no country' claim as a weak town-tell but that combined with his play which has been fairly lackluster leaves him sitting around null. What I do not understand is how your Oman scum read reasoning doesn't relate to Kates, Nexus and a few other people are doing the same thing or at least something highly similar. So why is he scum over them?

This is the problem I have with people voting me. I don't know what you mean by 'unnatural', as that just how I have posted this game, and I don't think I had a lot of fluff and filler, and certainly not more than anyone else in the game. I think I asked someone to show me who was the bastion of no fluff filler posting that I am being compared to that makes me woefully inadequate, and I don't think that response was forthcoming.

I don't think I soft pushed away from implosion. I said I he wasn't a good wagon, isoed him, thought he was town, and then left it. I am still surprised he flipped scum. I can't speak for what implosion did, but if you can point out exactly what you're talking about we can sort it out.

I can't describe unnatural too well, at least not at the moment. The person that you asked to show how you've been fluffing and filling was me, and I answered it to have no response from you to it at all, see; Post 493. As for why you found Implosion town I cannot grasp or understand that, literally nothing he did even seemed an inch town and his conversation and back and forth with Toasty was so bad that it was almost a scum-claim, your comment of 'dont like his wagon' and no future comment on it looks like avoiding a team-mates lynch, that's the problem I have with it. The Implosion thing is Post 1070, his addressing of your wagon is similar to that of yours to him, it's an avoidance of voting each other by stating dislike of the other persons wagon with no reasoning attached whatsoever.

That wasn't exactly my question. You called my attack on alchemist 'contrived', and I'd like to know what about it you thought was particularly wrong or out of place.

Ok, we've gone over this before once for the record but I'll do it again. Your attack reads as an OMGUS, it's you attacking him when he suggests you as scum and it looks like silencing a weaker player by insisting he's scum and therefore attempting to decredit his arguments through it.

[Duplicity]

I'd bet on the day-kills either being 1) Randomly determined in an attempt to speed the game up or 2) Done by a third party, vig doesn't make sense there at all as they'd just claim and give us a guarenteed second lynch a day. Also Shmugen scum flip increases the odds that Tammy, MoI, Hind, GreyICE, Toasty and Singer are town. Also increases the odds of Kats being scum. And Oman, he takes no stance on him whatsoever. Oh also TSH is town. Really like their latest reads posts.

Right now I'm;

Strong Town Reads:

MoI, Glork, Alchemist, Tierce, Toasty, Tammy, Gamma, Nikanor, Dana, Hind, DDD, TSH, Singer, GreyICE

Null Reads

: UN, Avening, SpyreX, Dramonic

Scum Reads:

LLD, Ludi, Nexus, Kats, Oman.

PEdit: Hey GreyICE and Alchemsist, stop being fuckwits, you're both town so lets not get into a stupid tunnel on each other.

[Duplicity]

Yeah, that reads list pretty much makes Hind obvtown. Was looking through it a few minutes ago and I don't think he'd mention the exact same advice for 2 scum partners and given on Implosion he said 'See above Hind advice' it's safe to say Hinds town.

[Duplicity]

Also his "MoI is strong town" to move on to putting MoI to L-2 or L-3 or whatever it was earlier makes MoI obvtown too.

[Duplicity]

SpyreX, I'll message Shift to do it, I'm heading of to catch a bus and won't be on for most of today.

[Duplicity]

Strong Town Reads: MoI, Glork, Alchemist, Tierce, Toasty, Tammy, Gamma,

Nikanor, Dana, Hind, DDD,

TSH,

Singer, GreyICE

Also how the fuck can you have a null read on Spyre, reg, Thats fishy as fuck

Stealing internet from some library that's somehow in the area while I'm waiting for a train so I'll try and go into these briefly, if you want one elaborated on more just ask and I'll do it tomorrow. Nikanor is town from a bunch of reasons but the largest of those is his back-and-forth with Implosion that I linked you to earlier makes him obv-town, Dana is based on finding Zdenek town though Danas play has been shit so far. Hind is town from his claim + the fact that he/implosion/shmugen don't work together as scum and I actually think I elaborated on this read for you earlier as well. I found DDD's conversation with SpyreX a town-tell, perhaps not as strong as most of my other town-reads but still fairly strong. GreyICE/Shmugen was something that's mostly based on interactions between the two - GI shat on MoI's town-read of him and given that Shumgen is apparently scum-boss don't think he'd attempt to kill any town-cred that he's given from other players. Singer is eh, partially similar to MoI earlier; I think her posts are so bad earlier that they're more likely to come from town-that doesn't give a fuck-her than from scum, also Shmugens vote on her makes me somewhat doubt them being partners.

And the null read on SpyreX is because I liked his 'i have no country' claim but I still find his contuined suspicion of Tammy and a lot of his scumhunting to be hollow - though I've liked his posts since the Shmugen flip. Pretty much just not confident either way in him to take a solid stance.

[Duplicity]

Duplicity, since you're way more active than I am - wanna do a quick runthrough on how many of them he actually uses the words town or scum in his reads?

SpyreX, I'll message Shift to do it, I'm heading of to catch a bus and won't be on for most of today.

Sorry, got caught up in something else and forgot. Will do it in the morning if Regfan or someone else doesn't beat me to it as I've got to sleep.

Still liking our Nexus vote though, especially after his last post.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

@Spyre I'm pretty sure you noticed and that's why you asked but most of Shmu's wall he was extremely vague and I'm kind of disappointed we let him get away with that (Ex. His reads on you and Tammy), the only ones he really explicitly stated were:

3.

DDDP

- I feel a bit of your pain with large themes, but I hope you show up sooner rather than later.

Slight townread on DDDP

for giving no shits about scum win condition.

7.

Glork

- Please don't quit the site. I think little else needs saying about this slot.

Anyone thinking Glork scum would require a Glork/Tierce wombocombo scum gambit to make their reasoning work [Glork town]

, and then we could declare mafiascum over and move to browner pastures.

8.

Haze

-

Middle of the pack null.

This started smelling like Haze revving up the bus for Toasty, but the reasoning became more inquisitive and diggy.

14.

MoI

-

Townread

. Very unafraid to take the ugly, questionable stances/arguments and drag them to the forefront.

17.

Nikanor

- Other than the case on Alchemist and a touch of Oversoul defense, all posts/cases revolve around meta. Tierce finds the cat's meta cases somewhat acceptable, and I generally defer to Tierce regarding meta.

Nulltown?

I'm kind of hesitant about including the next two as by the end of them he wins up not taking a stance either way, but it gives solid examples of the vagueness of most of his reads.

23.

SpyreX

- His answers to the pressure put on him by various sources (UN, MaguaoI) have been satisfactory, but only just.

I want to call it clear town, but it's not there enough.

Remember when I was talking about LLD and I said I hate vote trade deals? I dislike proxy votes too. Giving up your vote is like putting down your pistol in an Old West duel. Spy is correct that this game needs blood. It's pretty bloated already, I can't imagine how bad it would be if the lurkfolk actually tried.

24.

Tammy

- The personality irks me when someone flips the raeg switch, but the concepts presented seem solid.

The town parts of the ISO that stand out are recent

, the analysis of the LLD vote deal with Spy and the acceptance that meta is a thing around here and the effort to go to her old home, dig up all kinds of games and do analysis on them. The

earlier parts of the ISO kind of blur together, but I think I understand where the idea of voting Tammy early came from.

25.

Tierce

- Like you needed an excuse to go drinking, that's most likely the biggest lie you've told this game. (Note. If you are actually an alcoholic, I beg your pardon.) That said, the reaction to the fake dayvig seems natural enough to me, had the rage stopped early I might have thought scum.

Town up and down

, but I'll agree with Tammy here, meta is useful but the whole 'What would Katsuki do' argument makes me slightly ill. It isn't everything. I want to hear more on why you think MaguaoI is scum.

27.

UberNinja

- *sigh*

Crappy attitude, small townlean.

I don't think Toasty's initial post was bad enough for scumninja to rev up the bus so soon, mostly. Disinterest level is dildos, cases instead of reflexive outbursts would be nice. Do you still think Tierce is scum after the whole Oversoul thing?

And in later posts:

@Toasty - I have

two mostly solid scumreads and one decent scumread [Referring to Toasty, Ludi, and Singer]

, yes.

As for

Duplicity

, yes I do have a

townread

.

His reads mostly just sheeped popular opinion of the time and I honestly don't really think we'll get much more out of his ISO. Going through his posts nothing has really changed in my reads other than a better chance that Ludi is town, hence why our vote is elsewhere. If anyone wants to go through all of the reads he implied (Ex. Gamma townread) just look at his Scum to Town list, I don't really find it worthwhile to list all of them out again.

However, the fact that he repeatedly express distaste with the number of lurkers but doesn't vote any of them except for Quilford strengthens my belief there's scum there and it really feels like he was attempting to tread lightly on that front, particularly with this where he never follows up with a vote despite posting twice more before his death:

I can go for a lurker lynch if Ludi isn't going to get the axe. Oman, Nexus, Katsuki, take your pick.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Hate to say it but Ludis town, his entire reaction towards Shmugens death re; Him being Micah came across as genuine shock and don't think it's what he'd fake as mafia, also think Shmugen agreeing with our scum read on Ludi over Implosion was probably to push the wagon towards town rather than partner.

Singers self-vote is ugh, think it's probably a town-tell though as is her 'multiple countries' claim. She should replace out instead of acting self-defeatist. Also Dana is an idiot, no doubt about that, but he's town and I think his 'i got a pm about MoI' fits perfectly with his questioning on them earlier today, he's not even for policy vigging, we have enough useless-scummy/null players to be dealt with. Nexus lynch is still awesome, Oman lynch is a decent alternative.

Really? Because 'Good job doctor' posts are like 50% from scum, 25% from the doctor himself. And the doctor in this case is a serial killer...

Understand your point. Disagree with your conclusion. It's the sort of post I expect from him actually.

Similarly, where can this conversation be found?

Starts around Post 1747 and ends around Post 1759.

[Duplicity]

I think the claims probably fake, want to do a little bit of research into Nexus's meta as a PR though and will do it later tonight.

[Duplicity]

Took a look at the ASOS game and Nexus's play there isn't similar to here at all so his 'lurk as PR strategically' doesn't check out meta-wise at all.

Still very happy with a Nexus lynch.

[Duplicity]

Hey Glork, GI is town. I'll explain in more detail in the morning when I'm not exhausted but the gist of it is that there's a few things he's done he wouldn't do as scum, the largest of those being his comment to MoI where he attacks the town-read on Shmugen and the other being that his questioning of you here reads as genuine paranoia whereas Scum-GI would know and accept that there's no chance you're getting lynched and thus not waste time pushing/questioning you.

@Duplicity:

Nexus *did* lurk his way through ASoS, so not seeing where you said he didn't. He got wagoned for pretty much the exact same thing there as here, claimed town roleblocker, wagon fell apart, he got NK'ed by scum. At this point, that'd be the ideal ending to this.

Look at his content in that game. Then look at it here. Then look at it there again. And then one more time here. You'll notice there he didn't just prod-dodge and avoid the game completely whereas here that's the exact definition of his play.

[Duplicity]

My motivation for this game was killed by the Nexus wagon stalling, I'd much rather just lynch scum today rather than postpone it to another day and if by some slim chance he is town I don't see scum shooting him at all meaning we're just proloning the inevitable.

Oh and Alchemist; Dramonic is probstown but being replaced, DDD is town, Nexus can die, GI is town, Toasty is obvtown, Dana is town, UN can die later and LLD is someone I'd change to if people continue not to jump back on this Nexus lynch. So all in all most of your list sucks.

[Duplicity]

dup you have way too many townreads.

Yeah, I know though I'm fairly confident there's still 2-3 scum inside of [Nexus, LLD, Oman, Avenging, UN, Dram] from most to least likely. I'm second guessing my town-read on Gamma at the moment and I know it's a read that Shift never fully agreed with me on but still not comfortable throwing him into the 'want to lynch' pile just yet. The rest of my town-reads are ones that I'm pretty strong and stuck on.

[Duplicity]

also why the fuck is this game only mid day 2 and were on 98 pages????

Well lets see, Alchemist has 12ish pages by himself, Glork has just under 10 and Tierce/Tammy/SpyreX are just under that. If you're not going to read the whole thread (Which you totally should do) you should at least focus on reading into the pool of players I stated in the above post and let me know your eads on them.

PEdit: Yeah, don't have a scum-read on you but my town-read on you completely died and PoE leads towards you being a decent lynch later down the road.

[Duplicity]

Awesome, right now there's literally no reason not to be lynching Nexus.

[Duplicity]

Sidenote: Nexus/Implosion are much much better vig shots right now.

Going to bet that the above is 2/2 now. LLD should be vigged tonight or lynched tomorrow.

[Duplicity]

Nexus-Scum also means that Alchemist, Dana, Dramonic and Singer become more town. Kats more town too I think(?), need to re-look at that later.

Can see his "Avenging Angel needs more looking at" being distancing with partner too.

[Duplicity]

Her self-vote and play is bad but that's not scum. And she's not for the vigging, people like LLD/Oman are.

[Duplicity]

She is playing you. She is counting on you thinking its a townmove. Its so transparent. Your read is wrong.

Perhaps, but I'm willing to trust my reads a lot more than yours right now, especially since you've been pushing things like Glork-Scum and Dana-Scum earlier.

If she is actually scum, she can be dealt with later.

[Duplicity]

Fully willing to reconsider and re-read her later. Not closing myself from that at all, see; Ludi probably being town. But now isn't the time for it.

[Duplicity]

Hindu scum btw

No, he's town. Eyes on the prize and focus on getting LLD or Oman lynched.