WoT Mafia, GAME OVER

[Cyan]

I've read through the thread a couple of times now, and still can't figure out how MBL got off of the hook.

Vote MBL

[Cyan]

@ MBL:

Off of the top of my head..

You weren't involved in lynching Karn nor Mariyta, both of whom are clearly scum(Mazrim Taim couldn't be considered town by even a wild stretch of the imagination)...even after they both made ridiculously bad claims, you didn't vote them. You even tried to attack people for not believing Karn's 'Super Cop' claim(honestly, this was the most obviously fabricated claim that I have ever seen in any mafia game I've read/played).

You avidly defended Mr. Flay, who...also turned out to be scum.

From what it looks like, you more or less fabricated a theory about mind control, and tried to use Tamuz' odd posting style to validate it. When he debunked that theory, you 'confessed' that someone tried to collar you on Night 1...which of course failed, conveniently. Again, like in the Nynave claim case, your lack of WoT knowledge foiled you, as the A'dam doesn't grant mind control in the first place, it creates a link between two channelers and lets one woman be the dominant person in the relationship. Nevermind how unlikely it would be that Forsaken, Black Ajah, and Seanchan would ALL be in the game, along with Mazrim Taim(likely the SK).

Lastly, you came out of nowhere to attack ChannelDelibird this morning, giving no reason except, apparently, a general case of 'OMGUS'.

[Cyan]

I don't remember Tamuz' saying that his vote was coerced..I remember people speculating that and him not confirming, and him going out of his way to say that whomever is playing Rand didn't coerce his vote(and to be fair, the only real speculation at that point was that Rand had coerced his vote..I took his denying that as denying that his vote was coerced period).

Also, as for Flay, his responses/lackthereof were a key part of him continuing to gain votes against him, IMO. Had Karn not thrown himself in the noose, I think Flay would have ended up lynched that day..but obviously that's just speculation.

You're right, you did criticize Mariyta..and then not vote her. I didn't mention that on purpose, because I wanted to see if you'd use it as a defense. To me, the fact that you were against her, yet, wouldn't vote her, only makes you look more scummy, and the fact that you used this line of defense, only moreso.

No idea what 'in the unique position of having had an unusual night experience' is supposed to mean.

[Cyan]

It flatly states there:
[QUOTE=Tamuz]
I know you think I am under control
But that is no more true than I have the bowl
But know I am now in free control of my soul
[/QUOTE]

To me, that seems completely cut and dry that he is not under any sort of influence. I agree that it says that his vote has to stick, but, I think you are grossly misinterpreting(it's impossible to say whether or not on purpose at this point, and doesn't really matter anyway since Flay is rightfully dead regardless).

Anyway, I don't want Tamuz' to feel compelled to respond to this, as I strongly dislike speculating on role information, I just wanted to bring to light the fact that I disagree about him being under any sort of control, and why.

@Spamwise: How helpful of you.

[Cyan]

Unvote

for now..Spamwise seems like a more productive lynch anyway. MBL at least participates in the game, Spamwise posts just enough to not get accused of inactivity.

Vote Spamwise

.

[Cyan]

Unvote, Vote Yos2

. The "Don't lynch me, it's bad for the town for reasons that I won't tell you right now" argument has never impressed me. Someone claimed 100% certainty that Yos is scum, it's pretty hard to put that down, and Yos clearly isn't succeeding so far. Plus, the attempt to deflect attention to Tamuz is obvious.

[Cyan]

When someone claims '100% sure' that someone else is scum, in my eyes, they're putting their own life on the line..and I'm fine with that. The possibilities are as follows: A)Yos 2 really is scum.
B)Spamwise is scum and is lying. In this case, he's making the same mistake that everyone does..that he can say '100% sure' when he didn't mean it and make up an excuse to get out of it tomorrow. It's easy enough to make sure that he doesn't get away with this.
C)Spamwise is townie and is simply a crappy player. It's early enough in the game still that I find it acceptable to lynch crappy players just to get rid of them and prevent them from further damaging the game.

So, no matter what, the town will be fine if Yos2 gets lynched. Obviously if Spam comes back and says 'Well, maybe not 100% sure'..that'll change things.

[Cyan]

Unvote, Vote MMOD

What an utterly unhelpful attitude.

[Cyan]

Even if he was, how does it help him, or anyone, to respond in such a manner?

[Cyan]

I find it unlikely that a townie would be so utterly unhelpful to the game, and as such, I voted him. Not because I don't like his attitude, but, because it doesn't help the town whatsoever for people to act in that manner, in fact it accomplishes exactly the opposite, and I'm 'pretty sure' that preventing the town from making progress is exactly what a scum would want to accomplish.

[Cyan]

Maybe he should learn to be a better player, in that case. If people constantly get away with acting in a manner in which is in hinderance of the town because 'they're bad players', nothing really inspires them to ever be better players.

Also, FWIW, I've seen MMoD in enough games that I don't think he's a bad player at all.

[Cyan]

I guess MMoD can wait for a day when we have more time/inclination to look into him.

Unvote, Vote ChannelDelibird

It's always sad when games are so inactive that the first post in 36 hours is a deadline.

[Cyan]

I don't see how Valan Luca could be a Doctor, there are loads of better WoT choices for that. Plus, it really makes no sense whatsoever as far as Luca's character goes. I know that you shouldn't put too much stock in flavor to determine game mechanics, but, Luca being a Doctor makes about as much sense as Nynaeve being a Super-Cop.

[Cyan]

It's pretty easy to (false) claim Doctor when the obvious Doctor candidate is already dead, and when role info isn't revealed when people die. It's not a believable claim at all, IMO, even if he did make up some flavor to go with it that sort of makes sense.

[Cyan]

A doc and a back-up doc, maybe. But 2 active docs at once is very hard to believe. Especially in a game that has plenty of room to have alot of variety of roles, etc. Aside from all of that, he didn't claim back-up doc, just Doc. He also claimed to have protected someone Night 1, so he couldn't possibly be back-up doc anyway.

Honestly, given the abundance of major characters in WoT, it's hard to see Valan Luca being in the game at all, considering how minor his role is. It seems more like a safe claim than anything else, to me.

[Cyan]

I don't see how going to night w/ no lynch is better than lynching someone that seemed scummy enough to get alot of votes, and has a dubious claim at best. The day is going to end very soon, regardless of whether or not CD is lynched. Lynching him seems better than letting him skate for another night.

[Cyan]

Vote Illumina

.

Admits that CD's claim is probably fake, but, refuses to vote him. Seems like the typical scummy 'I want to look like I'm agreeing w/ the town, but, I don't want to lynch my mafia buddy' strategy, to me.

[Cyan]

I like the no-reveal, for the most part it keeps the mafia on their toes, I think. Obviously some roles are a given, like Nynaeve being Doc. But other than that, it's cool.

I don't understand why people never seem to give reasoning for their votes on here, it seems like everyone just votes arbitrarily..like, why did you vote for Lordy, PJ, and why did you want to vote for themanhimself?

I don't think there are collars, honestly. I felt like Tamuz put the speculation that he was under mind control to waste. I don't really get why MBL would make that up, though. It's possible that the person w/ the collar is dead now, but, looking at the list of dead characters, I don't see whom could have reasonably had that ability.

[Cyan]

It keeps the mafia on their toes because, if our Cop is dead, they don't know it, and they have to play to the best of their ability. It's true that we also don't know if our Cop is dead, but, we're not going to play any differently whether our Cops are alive or not. Similarly, IMO, it does not make it easier for Mafia to fake-claim roles, because they have no idea whether or not that role is still alive. It's true that no-reveal makes the townies play better as well, but, I don't think that's a bad thing anyway.

I'm sure you have reasons for your votes, which is why I asked what they are..it just seems weird that people constantly Vote with no explanation at all around here...like, how do you take a vote seriously, and decide whether or not it's valid, if there is no stated reasoning behind it? It seems like alot of 'I'll just blindly vote whatever such and such person votes'(not in your case, but others) happens around here, and that seems ridiculously bad to me. Anyway, I'll go back and read their posts and see if I agree with you.

I know that is was MBL that mentioned mind control, I was saying that, in one of his posts, Tamuz pretty much flatly stated that he was NOT under the influence of mind control.

[Cyan]

I think that it is possible that he was lying, yes, I said that early in Day 3 when I was voting for MBL, it was one of the main reasons for my doing so. That conversation got lost by the wayside, though.

Obviously it's also possible that A)Mesaana was responsible for the collaring, and hence it stopped happening when she was killed that night, or, B)the collar 'broke' when it was unsuccessfully attached to whomever MBL is...but these seem somewhat unlikely. For one, mind control doesn't seem like a tactic that Mesaana would be given, especially not via an A'dam, and the ability doesn't seem particularly useful if you cannot use it anymore when/if it fails.

[Cyan]

@MMoD:

IIRC, on Day 2 he claimed to have been collared on Night 1.(The night before last, he said).

These are the people that it could be explained as 'no one else got collared because they died first':

The dead:
Shamrock - killed night 1 - Galina Sedai
Fuldu - killed night 1 - Birgitte Silverbow
Mudbuck - killed night 1 - Min
Karn1 - Lynched Day 1 - Demandred
The silent Speaker - Vanished night 2 - Verin Sedai
Mr. Flay (more /in than Fritzler ) - killed night 2 - Mesaana
Yamahako - Killed night 2 - Nynaeve
Mariyta - lynched day 2 - Mazrim Taim

Clearly we can rule out Birgitte, Min, Verin Sedai, Nynaeve. That leaves Galina, Demandred, Mesaana, Mazrim Taim. Mesaana seems the most likely of these, and even then, it's highly, highly improbable, IMO.

[Cyan]

I actually like Theory 2 alot, and Theory 1 to some extent. I'm still not sure about MBL, because I feel like he defended Flay, Karn, and Mariyta, and they all ended up being non-town(it's possible that Taim was actually the Vig, but, this seems unlikely to me). However, his immediate suspicion of CD yesterday, even if only for reasons that he knows, makes him seem more town to me. So..I'm not really sure there, but theories that support the 'someone tried to collar me' theory certainly help.

Also, you're right that it was obvious that Yamahako was Nynave..actually, I thought that I remembered him coming forward and saying exactly that at some point, but, I could be mistaken about that.

[Cyan]

Ah okay, I guess I just misremembered. Still, I'd say that he made it as obvious as possible without actually claiming. Anyway, this probably isn't that important now..it'd be nice to hear from some other people. Some of the people in this game seem to be simply ignoring it..like they're obviously posting in other games, they just don't here..and it makes me suspicious when that happens.

[Cyan]

Yeah..Logicticus/Lanfear is scum(arguably the most powerful of the Forsaken), Pooky/Moiraine was definetely town.

[Cyan]

Interesting. I wonder if it's something the person can keep using, or if it's a one-shot. Hopefully the latter.

@MMoD:

I hadn't thought about it that way, but, I don't think that's it. And yeah, CD(Padan Fain) is definetely scum. It wouldn't surprise me if he were the SK, honestly.

[Cyan]

I agree w/ Yosarian. Obviously we don't know for sure about his role since roles aren't revealed, but, PF definetely seems like the most likely choice for SK, and the Mafia really doesn't know whom the SK is anyway. For awhile, I thought that there must be multiple scum groups in this game, but with Fain being in the game(and probably the SK), Taim might actually have been a Vig. Which I have an extremely hard time accepting since, up until like book 9, virtually everyone that read the series thought that he was Demandred in disguise(RJ went to GREAT lengths to disprove this speculation)...plus, he flatly tries to kill Rand and alot of Asha'man loyal to Rand...so it's hard for me to picture him as Vig, but, I don't see what else it could be..I guess he could have been neutral and won if he survives and Al'Thor doesn't.

Now it seems like there's one scum group(Forsaken), a Cult(I dunno what else the Collar could do honestly), and an SK. Oh, I forgot about the Black Ajah..hmm...I wonder where they fit in.

[Cyan]

I don't buy Illumina's statement completely. If Siuan Sanche were going to be in this game, IMO, it would be in her capacity as Amrylin Seat, not the random person that just hangs out at the mini-Tower(that's the only time that she'd be referred to as Siuan Sedai). I guess that would make either Egwene or Elaida as the Amyrlin..and somehow, that just doesn't seem right to me. Plus, it strikes me as odd that, in the midst of us discussing women that can channel getting collared, Illumina happily provides the identities of 3 different living Aes Sedia to the town.

There's also the fact that Spamwise backed off of his '100% sure' vote against Yos2 yesterday. I definetely think that we need to hear from Spamwise now, before we all jump on Yos' wagon. I mean, who knows, it could be one of those Black Ajah w/ the collar for all we know, or Illumina's win condition could involve getting rid of all of the non-black Ajah in the masonry group. There's just a little too much going on here, especially w/o hearing from Spamwise, to feel comfortable adding any more votes to Yos2's wagon.

I will say that, considering the complete obscurity of characters like Merilille and Salita, if Yos2 is scum, then the Black Ajah in that group probably just have safe-claims.

[Cyan]

Unvote, Vote Yosarian2

Upon further consideration, I don't think that we need to wait for Spamwise. Your story just doesn't really seem to add up, and, with as many non-town as have been killed already, the chance of us being in lynch or lose or something seems fairly unlikely. Plus, if it turns out that you are who you claim, Illumina simply gets lynched tomorrow.

[Cyan]

Unvote

. MMoD and Yos are right. This day has been short so far, having some discussion while we wait for Spamwise to show up(it would be nice if this happened soon) is fine. I think it's some what interesting/suspicious that, immediately after two people saying this, Anonymities comes in and votes Yos2 anyway.

Vote Anonymities

.

[Cyan]

@MBL:

Well, look at it objectively. If you lied about the collaring ever happening, clearly you did so for a reason, and it's hard to imagine there being a pro-town reason for that. However, considering that MMoD said that he thinks that BJ was collared right before he died, I'd say this lets you off of the hook..for that at least. I still find your play regarding Karn, Mr. Flay, AND Mariyta highly questionable, but, not enough so that it makes you a better person to look at right now than this Yosarian/Illumina situation.

[Cyan]

There was an Ajah(Red) that basically existed only to find men who could channel and gentle them(prevent them from ever channeling again). Only the Seanchan use the A'dam. Well, some of the Black Ajah and Moghedien or Graendel or one of those tried to get a collar around Rand's neck, but, there is only one A'dam that works on a male in existence.

Anyway, the gunsmithing thing is definetely interesting.

I think that the Forsaken and Black Ajah are 2 seperate scum groups. For one thing, one scum group of 8 people is pretty powerful, especially with only 28 players. Plus, with so many deaths, some of it had to come from scum groups NKing each other, it seems like. Flavorwise(which I don't think should be weighed TOO heavily, but, somewhat) the Forsaken used the Black Ajah to kill each other/meddle against each other.

[Cyan]

Rand never succumbed to the madness, in fact he(with considerable help from..basically everybody) cleansed Saidin of the taint at the end of Winter's Heart.

Also, I couldn't see ANY circumstances that would have Rand not being in the game, he's the main character of the entire series. I don't think that any Whitecloaks are in the game, though.

[Cyan]

I was thinking about the argument that the collar is just some kind of investigative role. At first, I thought that this was plausible, but, I don't know alot of investigative roles that inform the person that they're being investigated/targeted by an action, and the whole reason this all came up was because MBL was informed of the attempt to collar him that failed.

As such, I think it's more likely that it's an ability that is a type of recruitment, but, probably can only succeed once and then just 'turns' somebody into a mafioso or something(I could definetely see the Black Ajah using one of the collars on someone).

[Cyan]

@Anonymites: If you're going to FoS someone for exactly the same reason(s) as someone other than you has already stated, you might as well just say 'for reasons that (said person) has already listed' instead of just retyping them to make it look like you came up with them on your own. Honestly, I don't think that you could have possibly sucked up to PJ any more with that post.

@PJ: I don't flatter myself enough to think that me voting someone is going to magically make everyone else jump ship and do the same, I simply vote for whomever seems most scummy to me at the moment(which is why I tend to vote alot). If you'll look more closely, you'll realize that I did NOT in fact immediately vote for Yos2. I didn't think that Illumina's claim was completely credible(and I actually originally voted for Illumina, because of her 'yeah I don't believe CDs claim but I'm not going to vote him anyway' post), and said as much. Later, after Yos wrote the hugely over-defensive(IMO) post 537, I added my vote to him. I then unvoted him in favor of Anonymites, who jumped in, claimed to have read the whole thread, but appeared to miss the part where people cautioned that we wait to hear from Spamwise. I was willing to see Yos lynched w/o ever hearing from Spamwise, which I flatly stated, because I don't think that SW is really going to shed alot of light here, so, I don't think that your theory that I'm somehow backing him is very valid. I'm still half of that mind, because waiting on Spamwise seems to be a completely fruitless effort, but, that's what everyone wants.

What does the collar ability being a scum ability have to do with Illumina whatsoever? Not only was I not trying to make that association, I hadn't even thought of it. If Yos2 made a post to the effect that it was a scum ability that finds female channelers, then, I missed that post. Even so, I made the same assessment myself, but, I wasn't trying to make Illumina look bad by doing so, I was simply speculating, because this game has finally picked up a little activity, which is all going to vanish while we sit around waiting in vain to hear from someone that hasn't posted here in practically 2 weeks. And as you said, if he gets replaced, it doesn't really help, because that person will have no idea as to what Spamwise previous' conversations were.

[Cyan]

I'm of that same mindset, as I stated previously. If it turns out that Yos was telling the truth, then, we'll just lynch Illumina. I don't think that we're in lynch or lose or anything right now.

Unvote, Vote Yosarian2

.

[Cyan]

The only person that didn't post at all Day 2 was AlbertTheGreat, from what I can tell. He died Night 3 as Perrin anyway, so, I don't think that really helps whatever you're working at. Coron hadn't posted on Day 2 before I replaced for him, but, I assume that I'd have been informed if I wasn't able to post or was under someone else's control or something, and I received no information of this sort.

[Cyan]

I hope we hear from Spamwise soon, now that he's around again.

Unrelated note: Seems like there are alot of Arizonans(like myself) on here..interesting.

[Cyan]

It's only power for a day, because, if Spamwise turns out to be lying, he'll just get lynched tomorrow. A 1:1 trade is almost always in favor of the town.

[Cyan]

Well, it seems like Spamwise thought that Yos was scum, and then changed his mind..I'd like to hear about that. I mean, he said he was 100% sure, and then decided not to proceed with it..there has to be a pretty specific reasoning behind that, IMO. Of course, he was going to clear everything up 'today', but that was 2 days ago, so there's not much for it but to sit and wait now.

[Cyan]

What I find odd is that all of the Aes Sedai so far have claimed their full names, but, Illumina claimed 'Siuan Sedai'. I don't think she's ever actually referred to as such, even after Nynaeve restores her ability to channel.

Anyway, this waiting is getting obnoxious. If anything, it makes me less inclined to trust Spamwise.

Also, I think that you're barking up the wrong tree by accusing MBL..I'm pretty sure that he's town.

[Cyan]

Well, I guess that settles that. I'd vote now, except that I'm already voting Yosarian. Sucky set of circumstances to replace into, though

Also, it's not just about being under suspicion for claiming inconsistencies..Alviaran is like the head of the Black Ajah at the White Tower, and thus is literally an auto-scum role. Good thing that you guys didn't trust Greyjoy from the start

[Cyan]

Sorry I didn't post yesterday, internet was out.

And funnily enough, to address Cyan:

"Elaida Sedai", as SpamWise just claimed, it the new Amyrlin. She also would no longer be referred to as "Sedai". If you are going to use that argument against Illumina, I suggest you expand it to include SpamWise.

Anyways, I am still positive Yosarian2 simply replaced into a situation he could not control. His lynch today does not mean to say he has played badly, simply that I am pretty sure he is scum (now that we have confirmation from two people who night-talked with his predecessor).

I will vote Yosarian2 after MMoD reveals his information, if he still wants to do so.

I suppose it makes it more valid if more than one person has 'name sedai' for their role name. Maybe it's only the town masons in the mason group that are 'xxxx sedai', and the rest have their real names or something. It just seems pointless inconsistent that some would have full names and some wouldn't, there has to be a reason behind it, IMO.

[Cyan]

I'm inclined to agree with PJ...that seemed like the most logical conclusion(really the only one) that could be drawn from what you said, MMoD. If that's not the case, maybe you should explain it better.

[Cyan]

Unvote, Vote Spamwise

That last statement is a complete and utter lie. For one thing, CD did not become 'the play' until after you decided to hold off. For another, you weren't even voting CD anyway. Aside from which, when you're '100% sure' that somebody is scum, typically you put more effort into getting them lynched, even if that means having to convince the town of it.

[Cyan]

Guess we'll see what happens.

Unvote, Vote Yosarian2