Worst Role Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Amrun]

VOTE: Amrun because I've always wanted to say that.

And why is that? I'm curious.

VOTE: 2birds

ShadowGirl is town.

[Amrun]

You remaining alive for the very sake of your role will be detrimental to the town even if you truly were town. You would realize this if you were town and accept that your lynch is the best thing to do.

Good night scum.

Mod, did the scum get pregame time to talk in their QT?

Why would you ask the mod that? Do you really think he will answer? Have you ever been in a game where scum did NOT get pregame talk? (I haven't.)

How do you know the scum don't have day talk?

FoS: Oversoul

Molla is scum. An experienced player requesting a quicklynch is, well, very obviously scummy. He may be a lyncher, but he's certainly not pro-town.

A lyncher for mod-confirmed scum? Even if you weren't, I'd be voting you now. lol

[Amrun]

2birds, what is your previous mafia experience?

Keeping you alive is 100% detrimental to the town now, no matter what. We can't let you live until LyLo. that is just a fact.

I agree that a dayvig would be optimal, which is why I'm quite interested to see if GNR's daykill is legit and goes through. If it does, I'll have some interesting questions to ask him.

[Amrun]

Quicklynching is NOT universally bad; you are incorrect. There is merit to the theory that allowing scum to obfuscate things is only the dissemination of red herrings in a situation like this. How the wagon builds is still information. Whether or not you agree with that theory is irrelevant. BBmolla having different ideas about theory than you does not make him scum, and you trying to paint it that way is weak and scummy.

izak was not even aware of the last Worst Roles Mafia until this game was almost full, so he did not recycle roles from there. But you probably got your fakeclaim idea from there. Why else would have checked it out? It has nothing to do with this game.

[Amrun]

Wait, but quicklynching in LyLo is okay? You're a little backwards there.

The point is that theory disagreement =/= scum and your bad push on bbmolla adds merit to the fact that THE MOD SAYS YOU'RE SCUM.

[Amrun]

How do we know if we can trust the mod's word until we test it?

What if you're scum that has a detrimental ability? Why let you use it when we can lynch you now?

[Amrun]

Wow...That was lucky
I am Fritzler's Favorite Role
I had a 1-shot Daykill ability that I had to use on Day 1 within the first five pages or I would lose my vote.
Elmo has always been on of those people that I have had a hard time reading, so rather than keep him around to mind screw with my head the entire game, I took a chance and shot him, hoping he was scum. I was close.

How could you NOT shoot 2birds?

[Amrun]

Possibly, but it would have been the best thing for everyone to kill 2birds. What if he had killed elmo and he was a great town pr? He just lucked out.

p-edit: But now we have to waste day 1 with this lynch.

[Amrun]

Yes, necessarily, unless we have two dayvigs.

[Amrun]

Ice Guy, what do you mean? Agent_Ireland didn't say that at all.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Teleporting Speed Hippos

Haven't liked his posts so far.

[Amrun]

I really, seriously think we'll have misleading flips. Is it a possibility? Yes.

Is it likely? No. 2birds was turned into a Survivor, which was the usual yellow. Jester was the usual purple.

[Amrun]

I really, seriously think we'll have misleading flips. Is it a possibility? Yes.

Is it likely? No. 2birds was turned into a Survivor, which was the usual yellow. Jester was the usual purple.

Oops.

Really DON'T think we'll have misleading flips.

[Amrun]

Izak just posted this in the worst roles thread:

You are

The cause of much confusion

.

While you are alive, role names will not appear in the normal colours, but will be randomly selected as either green, red, brown, purple, orange, or grey.

You win if you survive to the endgame.

Not amused.

However, since our flips have seemed to correspond to the roles, I think we're safe.

[Amrun]

I've been in a game with a similar flip mechanic.

[Amrun]

2birds1stone is dead...

[Amrun]

FoS: Agent Ireland

[Amrun]

How about content, Shiidaji?

[Amrun]

Oh. Hmm.

[Amrun]

...what?

Do you have daytalk?

[Amrun]

Why would you ever assume he's scum if you're masons with him...?

[Amrun]

Well, I don't think chimera lurking is a good reason to call him scum. However, I think you're town for it. It reminds me of Meerkat Mafia, where I was neighbors with Tragedy. DGB claimed daycop and Tragedy for some reason believed her and asked DGB to investigate me. I knew from that moment on that Tragedy and I were a pair of town neighbors. No way one half of a neighbor set draws unnecessary scum attention on the other one, knowing that a partner's townflip would heighten suspicion on him or herself. In this game, a masonry is closer to a neighborhood.

RedPanda is town.

[Amrun]

Your given reason or thinking that he's scum and that the shot was good was selfish- you said you found it hard to read him. I would vote you here and now, but it's not worth the effort on this device to get square brackets up. Also, you're basically confirmed innocent, which is another good reason not to lynch you. Wait. Damn.

Ergh, I hate this post. It's so forced-sounding. And HOW is gnr in any way confirmed innocent? He isn't. I usually look for town clears, but this one strikes me as scum too nervous to attack a daykiller, which is USUALLY town in regular games.

And I'm conflicted about it because I don't think Phil is scum with Teleporting Space Hippos, whose attack on gnr was terrible.
TSH, your basis for suspecting gnr is terrible. How does taking a selfish shot make him scum? Shooting a player that's hard to read for him is scum selfish how? As scum, why would he care about who is hard to read?

BBmolla makes me nervous because I remember izak trying to create a balanced cult recruiter....

[Amrun]

saulres, I was specifically referring to the Survivor and Jester flips, as I referred to earlier. Nice clip, there. 2birds was turned into a Survivor, which was yellow. I don't know his original alignment and thinking about it will just drive us nuts, so I don't care.

I don't see the point in lynching Chimera until there's an actual reason to think one of the masons are scum. I agree that it's not a reason to call them town, but it's certainly not a reason to call either or both of them scum. If Chimera is scum, then, by all means, we should lynch him, but not just because he possesses a certain role ... in THIS game.

I would like to know why he voted ML, though.

tsh is definitely who we should lynch.

[Amrun]

I don't see the point in lynching Chimera until there's an actual reason to think one of the masons are scum.

How about the fact that this is worst roles mafia and there's no point for masons unless there's something terrible about them. I'm guessing that the terrible part is that they're confirmed town to each other when one or both is actually scum.
As a side note, I've been a mafia mason in a bastard mod before.

What if the terrible thing is that they are both actually town but the nature of the game means we'll lynch them anyway? (Plus they both have stupid post restrictions.)

I'm not saying they ARE town, I'm just saying, like, let them be scummy first or we could just be pissing into the wind. RedPanda seems really town to me, and Chimera doesn't really seem town, but certainly isn't scummy. I don't want to lynch either of them unless I believe one or both of them is scum.

This whole game is about WIFOM, so outguessing the mod is pretty pointless. I think we should ignore roles, for the most part, and lynch who is scummiest.

[Amrun]

It still wouldn't be a scumslip either way. I said the roles "seem to" correspond with the flip. We have no idea if 2birds was town or scum FIRST, but he FLIPPED Survivor, which was in the traditional yellow.

[Amrun]

Didn't others vote you as well?

[Amrun]

Nvm.

Sucks for you.

I'd say that's pretty fucking terrible, dana. He can't even really vote. He'd be forced to self hammer in LyLo if it was three person LyLo, for example. Ouch.

We don't know if there are more to their roles, and this line of speculat

[Amrun]

*this line of speculation should stop until it's more relevant.

I get what you're saying, though, I just don't agree. I agree that it's a possibility, just not a definite reality.

[Amrun]

Because town would want to be altruistic, not selfish.

Unfortunately, this is not often true. What is your mafia experience, TSH?

[Amrun]

Gmorning. My role supremely messes up anybody who has a decent role and tries to use it on me. I'm not gonna nameclaim, but trust me- cops, docs, vigs? You don't want to target me.

Ergh, this post really strikes me the wrong way.

That's one strike too many for Phillamon.

VOTE: Phillamon

[Amrun]

Then you should know better than to assume town isn't selfish, tSH.

Phillamon's role makes me uncomfortable and I think he's scummy in his own right. LYNCH PLZ

[Amrun]

I disagree that if the claim is real it's townie. It's very difficult to balance for town. It would absolutely cripple any scum faction that targetted him. It makes a lot more sense as a scum role.

[Amrun]

So why would he claim it?

He has to claim something - and he might not understand balance, and this IS the worst roles mafia. He can definitely appeal to benefit of the doubt, but I'm not buying it.

If I didn't find him scummy on his own, I might watch and see, but I think he's scummy, and I think his role is more likely scum, so I think we should lynch him.

[Amrun]

Putting normal masons in this game is bastardly so no I don't think so.

LOLWHAT

[Amrun]

I was speaking hyothetically, I was saying that it would be bastard because any masons is bastard in a game where you can't trust "confirmations".

THIS IS A BASTARD GAME! You can't say so and so wouldn't happen because it would be bastardly.

[Amrun]

Nice catch, OS.

VOTE: GNR

[Amrun]

Wait, why weren't you voting before?

[Amrun]

saulres, we've played in at least one large together before...

[Amrun]

PetsPick?

[Amrun]

Tierce, did you read the game title?

VOTE: Phillamon

From yesterday.

[Amrun]

Gmorning. My role supremely messes up anybody who has a decent role and tries to use it on me. I'm not gonna nameclaim, but trust me- cops, docs, vigs? You don't want to target me.

Ergh, this post really strikes me the wrong way.

That's one strike too many for Phillamon.

VOTE: Phillamon

Then you should know better than to assume town isn't selfish, tSH.

Phillamon's role makes me uncomfortable and I think he's scummy in his own right. LYNCH PLZ

There were other things, but I'm too tired to dig through my iso, so here are a couple.

TSH claimed that he could only vote someone if no one else was voting him. Why this apparently makes him a third party, idk.

[Amrun]

Not convinced of that part.

[Amrun]

How is his claim town? How is his PLAY town?

NumberQ has done basically nothing but hammer.

[Amrun]

Why are you asking me to defend a townread this early? Do you intend to vote him? Why?

I wasn't. It's interesting that you think I was, though.

I'm aware that you're neighbors, but I don't trust his role and think it's almost impossible that both him and Phillamon are town. One of them is PROBABLY cult recruiter.

I think Phillamon is scummier, so I'm voting for Phillamon.

[Amrun]

ERGH, I forgot I wanted to question Oversoul today, and now it's ruined.

WHY didn't you vote Oversoul when you made a case on him, Oversoul? You WEREN'T already voting him, and that's crap.

You were throwing out suspicion and pleasantly surprised to see a wagon crop up. Sooo scummy.


I still think we should lynch one of Phillamon/BB, BUT Oversoul wagon makes me happy.

VOTE: BBmolla

His lying about his role feels like backtracking. It's been pointed out that his role only really makes sense as some kind of cult recruiter, and all of a sudden, OOPS I WAS LYING IT'S NOT THAT ROLE AT ALL EHEHEHE. No.

[Amrun]

Oh, and Tierce, I said ShadowGirl was town because no way would scum, KNOWING they had a scumbuddy that was a guilty child, be like, "No, we shouldn't lynch this guy."

It's less of a strong tell now that 2birds flipped town, but I still like ShadowGirl for town.

I don't know why you're getting on my nuts for disliking TSH's reasons for suspecting GNR early on when TSH flipped scum and GNR flipped town.

[Amrun]

No, it's not that. It's all of a sudden, you're only a 2-shot!

You were like, "Oh no, guys, maybe my recruits aren't town!" /recruits anyway

[Amrun]

Wait, did you really? Can you quote it?

I thought you claimed unlimited.

If you claimed x-shot from the start then my vote should be on phillamon

[Amrun]

WHY didn't you vote Oversoul when you made a case on him, Oversoul? You WEREN'T already voting him, and that's crap.

Who was that meant to be aimed at?

The "Oversoul" address is pretty clear.

[Amrun]

Oh, woops. The first "oversoul" in the sentence should be GNR.

[Amrun]

Having a role that allows players to bring non-players into the game is already bad enough; there's no need to worsen it.

This is a terrible case.

How is it bad? It's good, if they're the same alignment as you. BB doesn't know they are, supposedly, but used it anyway.

[Amrun]

I don't know if Tierce is town. I'm not sure Tierce's alignment will be informative of BB's.

[Amrun]

Having a role that allows players to bring non-players into the game is already bad enough; there's no need to worsen it.

This is a terrible case.

How is it bad? It's good, if they're the same alignment as you. BB doesn't know they are, supposedly, but used it anyway.

I find it highly implausible that I could imbalance the game that much by using 1-shot.

I do find it plausible that my second shot would bring in scum.

Saul I don't know what to tell you, I changed my mind. The "Worst" part is that I'm recruiting someone from outside the game, which is obviously bastard.

Also Tierce as town is a force to be reckoned with.

lol what it is

"first shot town, second shot scum"

That is the biggest, most illogical wiggle out ever.

Please quote your original 2-shot claim as I asked.

[Amrun]

I'm phone-posting, so no, I won't.

People call you out for using the ability you said yesterday was probably anti-town, and then today, you're like, "Oh, the first one is probably town," even though THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING SENSE.

[Amrun]

Meh.

VOTE: Phillamon

He has reminded me of his need for imminent death.

Also, BBmolla did claim 2-shot, so I'm okay with keeping him alive, for now. I am not really convinced, but he's not the best lynch.

[Amrun]

HOW would that confirm buddies?

[Amrun]

It's not invalid; it's just not convincing. Plus, Phillamon needs to die for role AND scumminess.

p-edit: Idk if it matters to you, but I've been voting for Phillamon since yesterday and BBmolla was just temporary detour. For your calculations, whatever they may be.

[Amrun]

Right, fair enough, the heat is on, time to claim the restriction:

It's 1 shot.

I have one shot ditto'ing, then I'm effectively a VT. My role name is Green Slime, but that doesn't help much given it appears not to be in the original thread. I'll admit my posts have looked fairly scummy. I'll freely admit I've been extra speculative/paranoid because of the nature of the game. So yeah. My fault.

Oh, no. This cannot live. No no no.

Kill it.

[Amrun]

No, Amrun.

Oversoul is by far the better choice for today.

Phillamon has a better than 50% chance of being a cult recruiter. He dies now.

[Amrun]

It's because he's probably a cult recruiter.

He still COULD be scum, though. He's posting in a scummy manner and that is of the utmost importance, more than any sort of role speculation.

[Amrun]

cult.

recruiter.

[Amrun]

Yeah, if you have the set-up in front of you and this is 9-10 player... Which we don't, and it isn't. Terrible argument.

[Amrun]

Yeah, if you have the set-up in front of you and this is 9-10 player... Which we don't, and it isn't. Terrible argument.

So if you were designing a 26 player game, you don't think 20-6 compared to 19-7 would make a difference?

And I'm aware of third parties, idgaf, they only makes town weaker which solidifies my point.

Yes, but we don't know that it's 20-6 v. 19-7 - and depending on town roles, it might not. And that's NOT how your role works. It ADDS a player.

[Amrun]

Yeah, if you have the set-up in front of you and this is 9-10 player... Which we don't, and it isn't. Terrible argument.

So if you were designing a 26 player game, you don't think 20-6 compared to 19-7 would make a difference?

And I'm aware of third parties, idgaf, they only makes town weaker which solidifies my point.

Yes, but we don't know that it's 20-6 v. 19-7 - and depending on town roles, it might not. And that's NOT how your role works. It ADDS a player.

20-6 = 20-7 in balance?

It could, easily. It depends on what comprises the 20 and the 7 or the 6.

This is not mountainous.

[Amrun]

No, you are. Your argument is inherently flawed and will never be logical.

[Amrun]

You don't see why Phillamon is scummy from play? Seriously?

He claimed unlimited, and then when pressure came on, he switched to 1-shot. No. Nonono. That was just the cherry on top. He deoesn't even DENY playing scummy. Read him.

[Amrun]

...wat

Amrun what will make a bigger difference to their team, adding 1 player to scum or adding 1 player to town.

You are missing the point so completely that I have to ask if you've EVER designed a game.

[Amrun]

You can't make sweeping judgments about how a game IS balanced when you don't know the set-up. That goes DOUBLY for a game like this, where balance isn't even the expectation.

Balance with roles =! balance without roles (mountainous), and the roles in THIS game are extreme, absurd, and abundant. Writing off people as town (or even scum) based solely on roles is a very stupid thing to do in this game, at least until MUCH later on when we have a significant number of flips that help us out.

Trying to CLEAR yourself based off of a false assumption about balance is bad logic and scummy to boot.

p-edit: I see tons of purposeful scumminess in his play, but I welcome your thoughts.

[Amrun]

No, but honestly, the difference is almost negligible at that stage.

Still all sort of fallacies up inz.

You can't argue what you think you can argue, so you should stop.

[Amrun]

.... why would you do that

[Amrun]

Why would you vote for ML?

YOU JUST WASTED YOUR VOTE FOR THE WHOLE DAY.

[Amrun]

Hey ML can you be more active so scum will actually night kill you

Why would scum ever do that?

[Amrun]

Oh, by the way, maniacal lemon is the only role so far that I can't see scum ever getting EVER - it's terrible for town, but absolutely game-breaking for scum.

That being said, I wish he'd be useful.

p-edit: Yes, that role sounds much more reasonable, balance-wise.

[Amrun]

random alignment

[Amrun]

random alignment

Why would this make more sense. Are you saying it'd make more sense if they flipped a coin to determine my recruit's alignment? Giving either scum a huge bonus or giving town a minimal one? I still retain that's silly.

Also, just looking at my PM, it doesn't even mention alignment it just says they get sent a Role PM.

*shrug*

So you DON'T KNOW your recruitment's alignment.

And yes, recruits being of either alignment is definitely more balanced than all of one or the other. Without the random modifier, especially, the mod can just decide which alignment is better for balance and the gamestate. It also proves my point of how terrible your argument for yourself being town is.

[Amrun]

Because your entire argument is 100% moot. I was driving that home.

[Amrun]

Why should I have to tell you that?

[Amrun]

Why should I have to tell you that?

I want to know what you think it is. Because clearly we have to different ideas about what it is in mind.

That balance makes you town. It clearly doesn't.

[Amrun]

Also that your first recruit was more likely to be town. that's just bullshit.

[Amrun]

Why should I have to tell you that?

I want to know what you think it is. Because clearly we have to different ideas about what it is in mind.

That balance makes you town. It clearly doesn't.

Balance isn't what makes me town, this is:

-If I was scum, then odds are she wouldn't be once I recruited her. A fucking scum recruiter would be so game breaking it's not even funny.

-If I was scum, I wouldn't recruit the player who can read me perfectly, that's like asking to get lynched.
-If I was scum, why the hell would I bring in a player who can actually scumhunt? I mean, look at the players in this game, more than half the game is inactive pretty much. How would that benefit me?
-If I was scum, why the hell would I go against what I said I was going to do and bring attention to me?
-If I was scum, why would I fake a post restriction lazily to the point where it was obviously fake?

^Only the first bullet has to do with balance.

How is that a point even worth making? "I could be scum, but Tierce isn't!" Congratulations... And no, a scum recruiter is NOT NECESSARILY gamebreaking, which we argued about before.

Also that your first recruit was more likely to be town. that's just bullshit.

Do you think Tierce is scum?

She seems town to me so far. That doesn't say anything about you and it doesn't make your point less wrong.

[Amrun]

I don't, necessarily. When I thought you claimed unlimited recruiter and retracted it I did, but that's not what actually happened.

I'm on the fence about you. You are misrepresenting your towniness and really, really throwing a lot of wifom out there for us to process and that's not pro-town ... but I'm not convinced that makes you scum.

[Amrun]

I forgot to say that I'm poking your arguments and bad logic, obviously in an attempt to further my read.

[Amrun]

Oh, by the way, maniacal lemon is the only role so far that I can't see scum ever getting EVER - it's terrible for town, but absolutely game-breaking for scum.

Why? He's a vote magnet, but he's not unlynchable.

Your point being?

[Amrun]

Oh, by the way, maniacal lemon is the only role so far that I can't see scum ever getting EVER - it's terrible for town, but absolutely game-breaking for scum.

That being said, I wish he'd be useful.

p-edit: Yes, that role sounds much more reasonable, balance-wise.

Normally, I'd agree with this, but isn't this a bastard game and wasn't the mod confirmed scum at the beginning town? Just saying.

As to everything else that happened, I have no clue. So I'm just gonna VOTE: NumberQ or his replacement because I'm not sure what to do right now.

Possibly worst post of all game.


Saulres, think about it. Scum that literally cannot win LyLo if ONE town person votes him? He becomes the only lynchable player in LyLo.

I mean, the ONLY thing that makes it even remotely possible is THIS GAME being silly, as it is, but still ... there's a point where it's bastard and a point where it's broken, and I don't think the game's intent is to be broken.

Thinking about it more carefully, though, it's ALMOST as bad for town in LyLo... Meh. Not quite.

I guess I should take my own advice and not clear people based off roles.

But honestly, I still think that role is town. It's less of a handicap for town, but obv. still terrible. It's negative utility (clearly).

[Amrun]

NumberQ because we have nothing to go on for him and it's better than dealing with WIFOM in my opinion

How is that better?

[Amrun]

I have played with him before. Why would you discourage me from questioning him?

[Amrun]

Even things that may be futile must still be attempted.

[Amrun]

No, you specifically said it was better. Why is it better?

[Amrun]

Why are you going to do it?

[Amrun]

Why do you want to?

[Amrun]

Yes, but why weren't you straightforward to begin with?

[Amrun]

Also, off topic, but I think I know why moneybags exploded.

Why?

[Amrun]

Ok, I am all caught up.

Spoiler: Thoughts

wtf did i just read

Not even a vote?

[Amrun]

I think we're putting too much emphasis on scumhunting in this game.

what is this i don't even

[Amrun]

He did, on Tierce.

[Amrun]

You realize we tested it on Day 1, right?

[Amrun]

So you didn't read Day 1?

I don't oppose testing it again. Just saying.

[Amrun]

Also, how does a mafia role like that make sense? Did you read my explanation of why it does not?

[Amrun]

Terrible fucking answer, bb.

[Amrun]

Terrible fucking answer, bb.

Mk.

There's definitely something wrong with activity when players post and I don't remember them being in the game. Just saying.

Lurking as scum wins games.

Yeah, but that's SUCH a copout answer. Haddock has it right on this one. You clearly had no idea who was "scummier than you" when you posted that, and STILL DO NOT. "Oh, um, lurkers!" You don't even say which lurkers.

[Amrun]

Ok, I am all caught up.

Spoiler: Thoughts

wtf did i just read

Will post reads when I get home tonight.

I think I have my scum....

Will be posting a WoT tonight for sure.

VOTE: Theamateur OMGUS

Yes, i am sorry for the delays. I honestly wasn't expecting to replace into the game this fast. I have been pretty busy, will get a post of my thoughts as soon as possible.

So, your supposed scumreads were definitely lies and you have no better vote than an OMGUS. Why would you lie about having scumreads?

[Amrun]

Scumreads - no wall necessary. Just names. Go. RIGHT NOW.

[Amrun]

Wait, I'm not not voting. I'm voting Phillamon.

Wtf? Let's try again.

VOTE: Phillamon

[Amrun]

brizingre, can you clarify your role with the mod, re: flips or deaths?

[Amrun]

Why couldn't you be scum?

[Amrun]

If you're scum, you're PROBABLY not recruiting, but you still could be. The same thing I said to BBmolla: I don't know the set-up, and almost anything could be viable.

[Amrun]

brizingre, I asked you to ask the mod.

[Amrun]

He changed his claim today. SO KILL HIM.

[Amrun]

Assuming they weren't scum together claiming it. Yes.

...Why would there be normal masons in Worst Role Mafia? As opposed to one scum mason and one town mason actually fitting the theme of Worst Role?

We have been through this SO MANY TIMES.

[Amrun]

We just assume they are neighbors then. Just because they claimed masons doesn't give us grounds to lynch. "OH LOL THEY CLAIMS MASONS IN BASTARD GAME SO ONE OF THEM MUST BE SCUM"

I didn't push they're lynch, I was attempting to find out if they were both claiming normal masons. If so that warrants a lynch on one of them.

Why this is such a hard concept to grasp is beyond me.

Because you're blatantly wrong.

[Amrun]

I didn't say you being wrong made you scum. You really, really are, though.

[Amrun]

There's always the "only scum could be so wrong" argument. He'll have to say for himself, though.

[Amrun]

You DID change your claim. You said yesterday that anyone who visits you would be vanillized, but then later, after pressure, you admitted that it had a mysterious "limiter." Then today, after pressure about how it fits in balance-wise, oh wait, you're 1-shot!

[Amrun]

Yes, I said there would be a limiter. I then claimed the limiter. We've already had this argument, and Reducto ad Absurdum is poor form. Stop it.

You didn't claim the limiter FIRST. You claimed it LATER. You kept adding little bits and pieces to your claim, and that's scummy as fuck.

And please do not use Latin words if you don't know what they mean. I am not at all guilty of Reducto ad Absurdum - and there's an English equivalent, even if I was, that would have been more accessible.

[Amrun]

He did NOT full claim on day 1. I hate the way he's added to his claim, and I could easily see it being a scum role. He's scummy, and that's what matters.

[Amrun]

theam, foxace knew. He referenced it before, just not directly.

PokerFace, how do you know you'll be around tomorrow?

[Amrun]

He definitely IS scummy.

[Amrun]

I'm going to take a leap of faith.

VOTE: Oversoul

I agree with ShadowGirl that his vote on Brizingre was HORRENDOUS. Also I still have that niggling in my craw about him not voting GNR, though he claims he forgot.

But I still REALLY want Phillamon dead. I've had a scumread on him since BEFORE HE CLAIMED HIS ROLE.

But there's so much fucking opposition and deadline is so close. And realistically, third party is a bit more likely than scum on this one. Please, please, shadowgirl, modkill him.

[Amrun]

p-edit: Tierce, stop acting like your reads are god. We don't know your alignment, so even if you say someone is town, it doesn't make it so. Jesus. That's annoying.

[Amrun]

p-edit: Tierce, stop acting like your reads are god. We don't know your alignment, so even if you say someone is town, it doesn't make it so. Jesus. That's annoying.

Only I'm God.

There's a line-up of people I would rather have dead than Phil. A long line-up.

This makes me so sad.

Fortunately for all of you lot, I don't have a gun, and I'm not our Divine Townie.

But if you're asking me not to push my town and scum reads in a game that revolves around arguing, you'll be sorely disappointed, Amrun. I'm not particularly interesting in appeasing you.

I'm not asking you not to push your reads. I want you to do THAT. I'm asking you not to act so arrogant.


Also, mafia-n00b is so right about Tierce's nk thing. Now that's she's said it, she's basically ruined any value her death might have had, if she dies and is town.

[Amrun]

Also, I disagree that what Tierce said ruins the value of her reads. The fact that you are trying to devalue them doesn't make me think well of you.

I didn't say it devalued her reads. I said it devalued NK analysis. Her reads would have been examined regardless, if I was alive, anyway, and they would have been MORE informative had she not placed WIFOM into scum's head on purpose. I have a hard time believing she doesn't realize this.

The cases etc. she leaves behind would still be valid, should she die and flip town, but the nk analysis is now pointless.

[Amrun]

PEdit2: It's my cases no one ever pays attention to, Amrun. Look, arguing about semantics is utterly pointless, and I don't often see you do profound NK analysis either, so I don't get why this is bothering you so much. It's done. Stop pushing the issue.

I perform NK analysis all the time, actually. Looking at who died when is quite important, though usually later in the game, looking back.

For example, this time, I assume that Hippos was killed because he was clearly a hydra/alt of mysterious but clearly experienced players and mcqueen was killed because he was fucking annoying (no other possible reason there that I could determine).

Those aren't important, so I didn't mention them, but I thought about them. When we have more flips, things like that will become more valuable.

Also, I agree with IceGuy about dana. Nothing particularly anti-town.

[Amrun]

mcqueen was killed because he was fucking annoying (no other possible reason there that I could determine).

Why the assumption he was killed? We don't have a flip.

Never seen someone "vanish" and come back.

[Amrun]

no one has named a reason.

Not at all true.

[Amrun]

In your opinion, do you believe that there was a better NK choice for scum and what would it be? As I see, it might have been a hydra but he was not a player I would have considered overwhelmingly town/useful.

I don't know if there was a better NK choice for scum because I don't know for sure who the scum are. If you give me a player, I can say then, but overall? There wasn't anyone else in the game I would say was giving more "experienced, good" tells. Gimmicky Alt would have been another expected choice, if GA is town, but today, GA is megalurking. The allure of those two is "just how good IS the original player? They're alts! What if they're of someone awesome!" even if the day play doesn't necessarily make them a threat.

[Amrun]

I forgot to say that killing the most experienced player in the game is fairly standard for n1 NKs, especially in larges.

[Amrun]

Votecount 1.07

Guy_Named_Riggs (12) - saulres, Amrun, Phillammon, Moneybags, Oversoul, BBmolla, knox, IceGuy, Gimmicky Alt, danakillsu, Captain Haddock, numberQ
Chimera (2) - ManiacalLemon, Candy Corn Vampire
ManiacalLemon (1) - Chimera
Oversoul (1) - Guy_Named_Riggs
Teleporting Speed Hippos (1) - RedPanda
saulres (1) - Teleporting Speed Hippos
BBmolla (0) -

none

Captain Haddock (0) -

none

Robotnick2 (0) -

none

Phillammon (0) -

none

danakillsu (0) -

none

PokerFace (0) -

none

Candy Corn Vampire (0) -

none

IceGuy (0) -

none

Amrun (0) -

none

Moneybags (0) -

none

mcqueen (0) -

none

ShadowGirl (0) -

none

Gimmicky Alt (0) -

none

numberQ (0) -

none

RedPanda (0) -

none

knox (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (4) - PokerFace, Robotnick2, mcqueen, ShadowGirl

A lynch has been reached.

This is interesting, though. This was edited part way through the night - and I really, really remember thinking that numberQ was overhammering. I suspected TSH, and I remember him being on the wagon. I remember thinking, at some point during the night, that TSH was lying about his role and that I was going to go for him the next day over it.

But now, after 2 edits, the Vote Count looks like this, meaning that he was NOT lying about his role.

I forgot about this because TSH flipped anti-town anyway, and because in general I just forgot about it because I thought of it overnight and had nowhere to put it so I remembered it. (Should keep notes, but lazy etc.)

So perhaps the scumteam noticed that his role was confirmed and thought he would be difficult to lynch because of it?

But maybe I'm mis-remembering anyway. That's not necessary; he makes sense as a kill either way.

p-edit: There are a lot of reasons. I can think of several, but I don't think it's the right move to say them at this juncture.

[Amrun]

I don't know if that's the case or not. I'm just speculating. I wouldn't have thought TSH was town even if he proved his role, but something like that might have made the scumteam nervous. Idk. Like I said, it's entirely unnecessary, may not have happened, and even if it did, may not have been noticed by scum. He makes sense as a general scum NK without it.

He was pushing GNR, so I don't really think it was for reads reasons. Also I vaguely remember him agreeing with me about the masons not necessarily being scum, so I'd say it's a possible slight towntell for the masons, too.

[Amrun]

We do not have time for this shit.

I DO want to see more content from IceGuy, but I'm not particularly suspicious of him. He's analytically minded.

Deadline is upon us. Oversoul dies. His AtE does not sway me.

[Amrun]

I kind of glaze over huge walls of all caps cursing. I'll try again tomorrow, I guess. JUST FOR YOU, RP.

[Amrun]

saulres' 1194 is excellent, and I re-read the bile post and it still does nothing for me. My vote stays.

theam, stop fishing.

[Amrun]

"Tug" is a really interesting choice of words that I do not understand in that context. It makes me think of naughty things, but I don't think that's the intent. o.O

/off-topic

[Amrun]

Mod: Can we maybe get a Day extension seeing as there is at least one player that needs a replacement for inactivity?

2nd

[Amrun]

"Tug" is a really interesting choice of words that I do not understand in that context. It makes me think of naughty things, but I don't think that's the intent. o.O

/off-topic

Indeed not.

Tugging at emotions, heartstrings, what have you. Seemed appropriate with the pile of AtE.

Oh. >.>

[Amrun]

aniacalLemon slot is likely town, because there is actually no scum motivation in bothering to claim that role

So you think, realistically, that scum would just let people vote for him and then be caught out by the vote count? Really?

[Amrun]

I agree about brazingre and knox, though.

[Amrun]

The more I think about it, the more the fishing from theamateur bothers me.

dana had already hinted that his role could be detrimental to the town if revealed.

don't like it at all.

[Amrun]

I see no reason for scum to claim as early as he did.

What would an alternative be for scum?

[Amrun]

It wouldn't be seen as scummy

I really disagree with this. I would have found that scummy.

Why do you think that scum is unlikely amongst the testers?

[Amrun]

Oh right, the vote-tester was 2birds1stone.

And you guys lynched him.

*facepalm*

Amrun, most scum doesn't really get out of their way to break setups, help counteract post restrictions, etc. It's the same reason I have a townread on mafia_n00b, and it's why this kind of townread doesn't work well with experienced players. Call it 'early game kindness-curiosity'--town will move out of their way to figure stuff and help others even if they don't have a solid read on them, scum not so much, they already have the info.

You forgot Agent_Ireland as a tester.

You're missing my point, though. If ML was scum, a buddy could be conceivably excited to confirm ML's role, hoping it would make ML be ignored as town with a bad role for the rest of the game and get town cred in the process for something that's non-scumhunting.

And even if ML is town, scum love to do pointless non-scumhunting things that make them look productive.

[Amrun]

He was essentially a VT. Except with a buttload of WIFOM about his role. We couldn't let him live.

SO MUCH THIS. Basic theory. 2birds had to go no matter what.


But IceGuy, you realize that Lord Gurgi won a Professor Mafia for that exact theory you're espousing ... It was about how to win AS SCUM.

[Amrun]

He was essentially a VT. Except with a buttload of WIFOM about his role. We couldn't let him live.

SO MUCH THIS. Basic theory. 2birds had to go no matter what.

HOLY KOI

YOU COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO SCUMHUNT INSTEAD

HOW ABOUT THAT

CRAZY, I KNOW

Instead, you even ignored the 2birds1stone voters after he flipped town. So what was the lynch for? To confirm this is a bastard game? We knew that already. Feh.

The 2birds lynch was to remove that WIFOM from the game so we never had to deal with it again. That was ESSENTIAL.

And, for the most part, voting 2birds was the protown thing to do, and since she was town, scum would do it as well, so it's hard to analyze.

But I remember getting one significant townread out of that whole thing anyway (ShadowGirl).

[Amrun]

I don't like IceGuy as scum, and I'm not voting him.

[Amrun]

Oversoul, ShadowGirl's case is not mine and I have a townread on her.

Phillamon, would you advocate lynching IceGuy tomorrow if Oversoul flipped scum.

[Amrun]

I never claimed to be a cunningliguist

Who wants to guess how I read this?

[Amrun]

Why don't you think IceGuy is scum?

I don't think scum would blatantly say, "There's too much scumhunting." They just would not bring that negative attention on themselves.

[Amrun]

How does long posts make someone town, inte?

[Amrun]

What is your experience playing with Tierce and BBmolla?

[Amrun]

If I like the slot as town, I'm fine bringing it to LyLo. We just have to be careful with it.

[Amrun]

Wait wait WHAT?

IceGuy.

IGMEOY for coming forward with knowledge unprovoked.

That is, it would be an IGMEOY if I didn't already have a scumread on you, but oh well.

What the FUCK? Why do you say the most nonsensical things in the entire world and no one says ANYTHING? That's probably the worst attack in this game so far. My God. Another check in the IceGuy town and Phillamon scum columns.

Why would

anyone

Watch mcqueen? Are you claiming tracker who followed Robotnick/mafia_n00b to mcqueen?

My one and only theory about that is preserving game balance--a random player 'vanishes' for BB's recruitment to work, and the recruited player gets the same alignment of the original player. That would take care of balance, but I am definitely not interested in BB trying his action again tonight because I can be totally off-base here and the risk of recruiting scum into that QT is way too unpleasant.


Oversoul claimed conditional commuter, and now he's going on about voyeurs/watchers/trackers? He's fishing. He has been refusing to help the town just because, while at the same time helping scum via inaction because he can be scum himself. The fuck? Look, if your role is that messy, I'm sorry for you, but that is not protown behavior. Lying like that is not protown behavior. Waiting this long (2 days to deadline, and before that, less than one day to deadline) to reveal who you think targeted a janitored flip and waffling about it at L-1 as a bargain against your lynch is not protown behavior. :/

OS is probably town

X

We are not learning anything about Oversoul's alignment here, just mafia_n00b's. Not even Oversoul knows, so don't bother going about 'probablys' because his play so far is a mushy mushiness of nothing

because he doesn't know his alignment

. We can't scumhunt that. (Seriously, if I were in that position, I would have played my damndest town game and hope I pulled a town role, or that I came into later days looking townish enough to survive as scum/3rd party. Anyway...)


Why did you target Robotnick2, Oversoul?

These two posts were just whatI wanted to say at just the times I wanted to say them. I'm comfortable with Tierce being town from this point forward.

We should probably lynch mafia_n00b and see what happens, but lying about that claim is in no way pro-town and Shadow Girl should just modkill him so we get all the information we need from this day. mcqueen should return to parity, so we won't even be messing that up.

VOTE: mafia_n00b

[Amrun]

So, in other words, you're role fishing and trying to paint IceGUY as suspicious for it when it doesn't make sense. Okay, good to know.

[Amrun]

@Mod

Requesting prods of

BBmolla 2 days 3 hours (but 40 posts elsewhere -- anyone who knows me knows I consider this a scumtell, and I'd vote except with such a close deadline I don't think it'll be viable at the moment.)
knox 2 days 21 hours
Captain Haddock 3 days 10 hours

Talk about IIoA. Only one of those is even in prod range, ha.

Interesting that he showed up right away, though.

[Amrun]

Ask the mod if Robotnick took an action last night, and if so, what it was.

[Amrun]

IceGuy, you need to claim now - you said you had results pertaining to mafia_n00b. Share them immediately.

Right now, I feel more confident in mafia_n00b than in Oversoul, but I don't know why we are ignoring corroborating evidence.

[Amrun]

IceGuy, you need to claim now - you said you had results pertaining to mafia_n00b. Share them immediately.

Right now, I feel more confident in mafia_n00b than in Oversoul, but I don't know why we are ignoring corroborating evidence.

So why are you currently voting mafia_noob, then?

Because TWO PEOPLE say he's lying. I am trying to confirm this, but for now, the odds are stacked against him.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Oversoul

[Amrun]

NO, mafia_n00b. Put that vote back RIGHT NOW.

We don't have "the rest of the day." Put it back.


Oversoul was clearly just trying to stall and make us no lynch or deadline lynch someone else.

[Amrun]

Amrun, do you think he's going to flip non-amnesiac scum?

He COULD, yes - "abductor" is an easy leap after "vanished," and his timing was really impeccable. If he was a voyeur, there was no reason to fakeclaim commuter. It's a much townier sounding claim, and he could have left out the amnesiac bit. Instead, he's stirring the pot for no reasonable purpose - it doesn't serve any sort of wincon I can see except a scum one. Not to mention, his result has been disputed by someone I believe to be town, and I had a town read on mafia_n00b indepdently.

"Worst" case scenario is we lynch a non-group-scum amnesiac - but that worst case is still a net gain for the town, so I don't see an issue.

Also, I dislike both viable counterwagons.

p-edit: Oversoul is actually at 10 votes, which is L-1.

[Amrun]

IceGuy is town for reasons I said earlier - why would scum go out of their way to say there was too much scumhunting going on? Also, mcqueen is either a vig-like kill or a third party meaning to look like a vig. Either way, not concerned for now.

[Amrun]

VOTE: brizingre

I can't see any explanation for not dying instead of THREE TOWN DEATHS?!

[Amrun]

That's a bad post and you should feel bad, IceGuy.

[Amrun]

So then who was his partner?

[Amrun]

The only possibility I see from a Gimmicky Alt ISO is ShadowGirl. H/o while I compare.

p-edit. Oh, hmm. THEAM, CONFIRM/DENY

[Amrun]

The maybe bin for scum is: Captain Haddock, theamateur (lack of read - I don't even remember if you've claimed a role), all dem lurky lurkers (FoxFace, Gimmicky Alt).

Yeah, not SG. Oh well.

[Amrun]

Urgh, if IceGuy was killed by scum, dana is only scum if his scumteam is fucking STUPID. Why bring him back now when he can be safe until endgame? No, no, no.

BBmolla, that is the worst push on dana imaginable.

VOTE: BBmolla

[Amrun]

Urgh, if IceGuy was killed by scum, dana is only scum if his scumteam is fucking STUPID. Why bring him back now when he can be safe until endgame? No, no, no.

BBmolla, that is the worst push on dana imaginable.

VOTE: BBmolla

Why not mislynch Iceguy instead

Perhaps they didn't think they'd pull it off. I'd have fought against an IceGuy lynch tooth and nail, for one.

And wifom.

[Amrun]

That's not true at all. I defended IceGuy several times and stated why I thought he was town. If he had ever been a truly serious lynch candidate, I'd have pulled out all the guns.

p-edit: You shouldn't. If someone says something in a QT, they should be willing to say it in a game. It's going to get read post game anyway. I'd rather read what Tierce said exactly.

[Amrun]

I still think Phil is scum who needs to die, so nothing would make me happier than a Phil wagon.

dana's 1670 is strange.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Phillamon

[Amrun]

@Amrun, do you still think we need to lynch BBmolla?

Idk. Dana's post is giving me pause.

[Amrun]

@Amrun

Do you think Tierce flipping town gives BB any town-cred? BB's repeatedly argued that recruiting town-Tierce is a dumb move for scum-BB.

No, I really don't.

[Amrun]

Wait, how does it clear me?

[Amrun]

Oh, nvm. Am I really the only female in the game?

mafia_n00b, do you think dana is scum?

[Amrun]

@Amrun I think he may well be town, but I think that the only way he can *prove* his inside info is by being proven town... by dying. Basically, as town, he's more valuable to us dead than alive.

So we should lynch every cop that comes along?

[Amrun]

No, Red Panda, I think calling someone a stupid monkey is pretty offensive. You should apologize.

In other news, nothing really productive has happened except for saulres bringing my attention to PokerFace. Well, someone else - theam, I think - did it first. If he was so willing to proxy his vote to RP, why was he so concerned about distancing himself from his proxied vote? I really, really did not like that. And he really HASN'T done much scumhunting. Being behind is no excuse - he had lots of things to observe, and he chose to mostly observe fluff.

Phil still scum, though.

[Amrun]

No, I think it was because the mod deleted that Shiidaji post.

It's a good thing to point out, but speculation about it won't do any good. We'll keep an eye on it and that's all we can do.

[Amrun]

I can't spot it either. Apologies for my relative lurking, btw. I don't think I'm voting, but UNVOTE: if I am. I also retract my case on myself, there look to be better, *actual* scum here.

THIS HAS GONE UNNOTICED

KILL IT WITH FIRE, BRIMSTONE, AND NUKES

NO NO NO NO

[Amrun]

AtE "I"m the best lynch" ... wagon builds ... retract. That's a pattern, and a scummy one, and we need to kill it.

[Amrun]

Depends on if we agree on who the "actual scum" are. I think Phil is actual scum, for example. At best third party. If we agree on a scumread, then, certainly.

[Amrun]

I could probably go for Haddock and a compromise on saul.

Not dana, though.

[Amrun]

Either survivor or cult recruiter.

Not really, in a game like this. For a lot of roles in this game, vanillizing them would be a blessing for the town. Which would make it a worst role quite handily, I think.

[Amrun]

How and why is saulres' logic shitty? I don't think I've seen anything terrible. He has less hare-brained theories than usual, which make me lean scum on him, though.

[Amrun]

Saulres, what was the theory?

[Amrun]

1062 is a good post on Haddock. why do you think RedPanda is scum for "fishing" or "omgusing" dana, when you're VOTING DANA, haddock?

[Amrun]

Or ... there's a 50/50 chance for each person!! Your "logic" was always fucking terrible on this and it hasn't gotten any better.

[Amrun]

No, it really, really isn't.

I don't think that's NECESSARILY the case anyway, I just think there are about 10,000 more likely explanations than yours.

[Amrun]

My point is that I can't figure out if you seriously believe that utter, utter bullshit. I really find your play individually scummy this game, but feel unsure about your scum motivation in some things (such as inviting Tierce), and I think I believe dana, which makes you town. But I still struggle to reconcile myself with it.

[Amrun]

I know it doesn't, but purposefully pushing bad logic and pretending to believe it is good logic DOES = scum.

[Amrun]

If his first recruit is town and his second is scum, then what BBmolla has done makes no sense from a scum perspective.

[Amrun]

The issue is that I wifom myself: is that why he is pushing the inane theory of first-town, second-scum, which makes NO SENSE? if it were true, it would be good news for bbmolla-scum, but there's absolutely no reason it should be true. That's why it's suspicious to me.

[Amrun]

1062 is a good post on Haddock.

???

Oops. Misread an 8 as a 0. I meant 1862.

[Amrun]

I concur.

[Amrun]

traveling tomorrow, idk if can post

[Amrun]

@callforjudgment: I've already stated that I have a scumread on Haddock. I lean scum on theam for his conflicting report of post restrictions between him and his predecessor. I lean town on saulres for lack of reason to think he is scum, but this isn't a well-based read and I have already stated I would compromise lynch him to get Phillamon lynched.

That's a great point about Phillamon. I forgot he did that. That's ANOTHER point for him being groupscum, in my mind, because as survivor, he wouldn't care if his role got used. And as you stated, even if he is survivor, that's effectively scum at lylo.



@saulres and whomever saulres was replying to: Vi faked a PR as town in SpyreX's dynasty wars mafia. Debonair Danny DiPietro faked a post restriction as town in the Scummies Winvitational. hascow faked a PR as scum in one of the game of thrones games. It's been done as both alignments, and the manner in which it is used is more telling than the actual faking.

[Amrun]

Also, if we can't lynch my first choice Phillamon, I'm okay with Haddock.

But BBmolla, you wound me with your vote swtich.

[Amrun]

1965 hurts my brain, and it isn't the post restriction.

[Amrun]

Oh shoot - brainwave - could BOTH gimmicky alt and ccv/theam vote at the same time??

On my phone, too hard to check.

[Amrun]

Votecount 1.06

Guy_Named_Riggs (6) - saulres, Amrun, Phillammon, Moneybags, Oversoul, BBmolla
Chimera (3) - IceGuy, ManiacalLemon,

Candy Corn Vampire

Robotnick2 (2) - RedPanda,

Gimmicky Alt

Captain Haddock (1) - danakillsu
saulres (1) - Teleporting Speed Hippos
BBmolla (1) - Captain Haddock
ManiacalLemon (1) - Chimera
Phillammon (0) -

none

Oversoul (0) -

none

Teleporting Speed Hippos (0) -

none

danakillsu (0) -

none

PokerFace (0) -

none

Candy Corn Vampire (0) -

none

IceGuy (0) -

none

Amrun (0) -

none

Moneybags (0) -

none

mcqueen (0) -

none

ShadowGirl (0) -

none

Gimmicky Alt (0) -

none

numberQ (0) -

none

RedPanda (0) -

none

knox (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (7) - Guy_Named_Riggs, numberQ, knox, PokerFace, Robotnick2, mcqueen, ShadowGirl

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch. The deadline is 20:00 UTC on 28th April 2012, in (expired on 2012-04-28 21:00:00).

Okay, guys, yeah. No way is a secret double voter a "worst role" for scum. Theam is town.

[Amrun]

There's more to those roles than were obvious, too, but it still amounts to a secret double vote.