Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Empking]

Vote: ML

- Getting into the groove boy.

[Empking]

Unvote
Vote: Briz

I can't argue with that logic.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Norm

- Can't argue with that logic either.

[Empking]

ManiacalLemon. You've earned yourself my distrust.

FoS: Lemons, MagnuaOfIllusion, Empking, Pine, and greenknight.

Until you 3 can tell me exactly why you're voting me, (exlcuding Lemons because I think he's trying to bluff me and make me think he's not a scumbag) you will remain on my FoS list.

As for Green Knight who recently asked why I'm asking these "random" questions... No these aren't random questions, genius, these are background checks and investigations.

So by the great power of deduction, your scum list and hunting abilities consists of people suspecting you? Is this correct?

What do you deduce from this?

[Empking]

Nevermind ... I see you have it turned on ...

Empking

- Do you deny reading the thread but not posting as accused by Norman?

I haven't been in the mood to read. Though I've been visiting the site in the hope that I do get in the mood to read* (and obviously I notice my name in bold writing) but yeah I do deny reading the thread but not posting. Even though I know you've written this question, that you're voting Shad and I can presume Norm accused me of reading without posting, I couldn't tell you anything else that happened in the game since I last posted.

*If I'm not in the mood to read I really can't do it; it becomes a futile exercise.

[Empking]

Not denying it.

Norm: How much effort goes in each of your posts?

PEdit: First bit to Norm's last post.

[Empking]

And Empking, alot of things get taken into consideration. But you, you might be that scumbag I'm looking for.

Pardon?

[Empking]

So my other head thinks Norman is just a troll and VI and unlikely to be scum.

Are the first descriptions the evidence for the "unlikely to be scum" description?

[Empking]

Are the first descriptions the evidence for the "unlikely to be scum" description?

No, if you had bothered to read you would have seen his reasons on the last page.

OK, so what's the difference between the "troll" and the aggressiveness?

[Empking]

If this wasn't multi-scum we could could clear CD at this point. As it is his wagon is going to be silly useful once Norm flips scum.

[Empking]

I'm missing why Norm can't be LE. The whole string of logic behind claimed LG ergo not LE. Pine, mind helping me out?

[Empking]

With 26 players how do we expect to get a lynch in 9 days, by the way?

[Empking]

You were swimming in March?

You were thinking about this game while you were swimming?

I see no problem with either of these.

[Empking]

You're operating under the assumption that what is going on in this thread is actually mafia. I haven't seen anything yet that particularly strikes me as useful.

Then why be voting Pine rather than being on a wagon?

[Empking]

Unvote
Vote: Fox

[Empking]

This is not a scum reaction imo. Let's find someone else to lynch today.

Its not a town reaction either. Its a Fox reaction.

Also, I've never had any problems with IE. FF is much more buggy in my experience.

[Empking]

Quiet

Vote: Cool

[Empking]

Also, empking, reasons for your vote? I can address anything thing that bothers you.

AV's reason I think. Your comment to AV was a lazy attempt at role fishing.

[Empking]

Wait. How was what I said remotely role fishing?

A positive from a Doctor coming out could come from someone's role.

[Empking]

Still want a dead Cooldog

[Empking]

Uh, Ad Hominem is different than verbal attacks. Ad hominem implies the absence of other premises and conclusions; it implies the sole premise being the arguer is himself and that the conclusion is not self evident. Not only that, but the premises and conclusions of those statements are valid and not a model of ad hominem.

After the game I can give you lessons if you want MoS,; but for now back to ignoring you.

Wikipedia disagrees.

"Negative campaigning, also known more colloquially as "

mudslinging

", is trying to win an advantage by referring to negative aspects of an opponent or of a policy rather than emphasizing one's own positive attributes or preferred policies.

In the broadest sense, the term covers any rhetoric in which one refers to one's opponent in an

ad hominem

manner.

"



"An ad hominem [...] is an

attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic

or belief of the person supporting it."

Give me five seconds and wikipedia will agree with Junpei.

[Empking]

OK. This page has created a scumread on Zdenek that wasn't there before.

[Empking]

@Empking in your own words, why do you want a CoolDog lynch?

He's got a sort of "not-me is scum" thing going on. I don't think he especially wants to lynch scum.

I don't think the arguments against Pine are at all valid. I see no reason for scum to claim to do something that they know to be unoptimal and I see no reason for scum-Pine to have a different view of his claimed role that town-Pine does. That's not an argument for his being town (though he obviously is) but it doesn't make sense for an argument against his being town either.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Zdenek

[Empking]

Thinking Moneybags is town.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: BB

We've got a week left and I loathe both the leading wagons. BB, I'm apathetic towards.

[Empking]

I agree with MOS and as I said before: why wouldf Pine lie about what's optimum strategy for his supposed role.

[Empking]

That's a flimsy excuse. If it's PINE'S role, PINE should have thought how to best use it.

He should have at least realised that it's vital for scum to lie about their ethics, especially given the discussions in the pre-crash thread.

Who actually read the pre-crash thread? LoL...

The people who posted in the pre-crash thread? :shrug:

[Empking]

Nice job listening to the mod, Scumdog.

[Empking]

If Pine was any townier he'd be pinefresh.

[Empking]

CK seems to be right about that. Its more of a question that CE need to have an excuse not to leave the game if the LE's are eliminated.

[Empking]

CD lynch clearly isn't happening. Because while he's scum we're lynching BB today.

FTFY

[Empking]

Thge single voters should stop being silly.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Shadoweh

L-1

[Empking]

Vote:m Pere

[Empking]

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

...As a roleblocker. Which is a common scum role, which you want to out an information role for.

Stupid or scummy?

[Empking]

I doubt very much that this is actually a productive conversation.

[Empking]

V/la for a bit with computer issues.

[Empking]

T5

[Empking]

The BB wagon wasn't always horrible but it now.

Unvote, Vote; Nacho

[Empking]

empking, if your gonna jump off of BB jump on briz!

Was never on BB (today).

[Empking]

I don't really remember my Nacho read. But...

Nachomamma8 (4) - chesskid3, Zdenek, BBmolla, Lost Butterfly

...With a wagon like this, I can tell you it definitely makes me want to say he's town.

I'm feeling a bit of deja-vous. Wasn't obvtown Shadoweh's wagon driven by scum too?

This is a surprisingly good point.

[Empking]

Vote: Cool

I'm 90% sure, he's scum though I'm not 'appy with only four days left.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Nacho

[Empking]

Vote: Nacho

[Empking]

Lol at MoI flipping scum

He didn't.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: Chesskid

I think both BB & Pine are town or at least I won't asgree to either's lynch for a long time.

[Empking]

Unvote, Vote: BB

[Empking]

Empking I see you actively posting in another thread

get the fuck in here and claim your ethic

I'm not claiming my ethic until there's an agreement on it.

[Empking]

But you're waiting to something and taking everything else about my post into consideration? Hmm...

Pardon?

[Empking]

I asked everyone to not do anything else other than ethic claim.

You didn't ethic claim.

But you didn't do anything else.

Why is that if you don't trust my ethic claim?

I do trust it. I just want agreement before commencing on it. Someone might have seem something neither of us have.

[Empking]

You think their are third parties?

No?

[Empking]

I don't understand your "neither of us have" comment then.

problems that neither you or I have thought of.

[Empking]

Vote; Pine

[Empking]

Also, stop voting Pine people. If he ends up being the day's lynch that's one thing, but jumping onto it right now does nothing good for either town. kthnx.

As long as its today I don't really care but the not-winning town is better off if we get it over with (momentum).

Chaotic here.

[Empking]

Wait is Oversoul saying that Pine doesn't have a role? If that is part of the claim, then it's incorrect because Shadow tracked Pine to Chesskid on night two. If that wasn't part of the discussion sorry...I do need to read it again.

Pine claimed Chaotic. He was actually Lawful.

[Empking]

^ slip?

Wouldn't you leave, if you are Lawful?

He's claiming Chaotic.

[Empking]

Chesskid...why do you think Tiphaine is likely scum? Most people have argued that he's the most town of anyone here all game.

When?

[Empking]

Vote; Chess

- Junpei is 100% right.

[Empking]

Unvote
Vote: Nacho

Don't remember if I did that or not.

We're lynching Mastin or Nacho today, to give the Lawful Goods a better chance of winning. CG have already won. Lynching chesskid today would just be selfish.

1. What do we have against the CE guy?
2. How does lynching out of the four CE suspects today better than lynching out of three tomorrow?

[Empking]

Unvote
Vote: Nacho

Don't remember if I did that or not.

We're lynching Mastin or Nacho today, to give the Lawful Goods a better chance of winning. CG have already won. Lynching chesskid today would just be selfish.

1. What do we have against the CE guy?
2. How does lynching out of the four CE suspects today better than lynching out of three tomorrow?

chesskid can take a shot at a CE suspect tomorrow if he wants.

Do the LG guys have no pride? "If we don't lynch Chess today he could troll to give us the win!"

[Empking]

This is tough, ethically.

It isn't tough ethically. Ethically its obvious that we should lynch Chess.

It might be a tough choice but I don't think "let's gang up on the CE guy to try and get an ego boost" has any ethical weight.

[Empking]

Empking do you realize that this is the most effort you've put into this game?

Yes I care more about actual ethics and fairness more than a game. Sue me.

I'd like to know what kind of ego boost you think we're trying to get.

Not your half but my town is trying to get some sort of intangible benefit from behaving unethically.

If you're so concerned about ethics why don't you help us figure out who the last CE is?

I don't have any skin in that game. I think we should quietly lynch Chess and leave your half to deal with the rest of the game.

[Empking]

Empking, there's nothing unethical about giving them an opinion.

Meh. Can't read Mastin or Nacho as anything but town anyway.

[Empking]

Look I can understand why some people think it's unethical for Chesskid to kill the last CE. Whatever. What I don't understand is how anyone can spout "ethics" and at the same time refuse to help with which one the last CE is because they don't care because it's not part of their team. Like what the hell is ethical about that? I've already demonstrated that it was through a lawful good effort that definitely outed one of your lawful evil people, and you're just like, well let's take our cookies and run. You didn't get to this point by yourself, so I can't understand how you can talk about ethics and say welp it's not our mess, let's let them clean it up.

Because you're not just asking we help your half's town but hurt your half's scum.

[Empking]

Look I can understand why some people think it's unethical for Chesskid to kill the last CE. Whatever. What I don't understand is how anyone can spout "ethics" and at the same time refuse to help with which one the last CE is because they don't care because it's not part of their team. Like what the hell is ethical about that? I've already demonstrated that it was through a lawful good effort that definitely outed one of your lawful evil people, and you're just like, well let's take our cookies and run. You didn't get to this point by yourself, so I can't understand how you can talk about ethics and say welp it's not our mess, let's let them clean it up.

Because you're not just asking we help your half's town but hurt your half's scum.

By the entire town working together to figure out who the last CE is?

I've been thinking about this and I don't know really what the problem is. I've seen serial killers confess and offer to work with the town and act as a vig for them before.

That's in order to go from 0% to 1%. You're not offering an equivalent benefit.

[Empking]

The fact that he does so now and has the gall to call it ethical makes him a hypocrite and a traitor.

No it doesn't. Helping one side when it can forward the side of the helper is one thing and a completely different thing but if we have won and Chess has lost then it is only acceptable to take that win (or loss) quietly and leave. If we haven't then we should take it immediately to protect from any unforeseen circumstance.

The best analogy for this, to my mind, is that of a Lyncher after getting his lynchee hammered then coming out and outing a Neighbouriser.

Though playing to win is one thing, trying to get a player (Chesskid) to act unethically in order to win strikes me as demonstrating a lack of pride in oneself.

[Empking]

What's the difference between Chaotic town trolling and helping Lawful town and Chesskid trolling and killing the last mafia?

There isn't really.

[Empking]

So then LG Greenknight didn't get night killed for making sure LE Shadoweh was lynched?

LG Feysal didn't make sure LE BB got lynched? Please note, that he could have kept his mouth shut and lynched from amongst chaotic evil suspects, but didn't.

If Feysal purposely hurt his side's odds of winning by outting BB then he should apologize to BB. If he didn't then you're more or less libeling him here.

Now how is it wrong that your town, who has had way less losses than us, help us as we helped you? In getting to this point where you get to have your win, you lost 3 members of your town, we lost 7. So even though we paid more and helped you get to this point, you think it's somehow wrong to help us. Nice.

I don't believe you paid it voluntarily. If you are saying your side deliberately let themselves down and we should help them for it then, simply put, two wrongs do not make a right. I fail to see why we impose ourselves upon the game to act as Kingmaker.

[Empking]

You are missing the point and I think you're doing it deliberately. The point is that we worked together as a town, a unified one, in fact on the day of the BB lynch at least two members of LG talked about how it was more important to help your team find the second evil before we looked for the third chaotic, as CE was down to one, but LE still had two. This was done to benefit both teams, not in an attempt to hurt one's sides chances of winning; it was done in an attempt to maximize both teams winning chances.

How are you getting that our side let ourselves down deliberately? How is the fact that LG suffered more two more nightkills than CG our fault? How is the fact that the only two mislynches were on LG our fault. And just so you know those two LG mislynches weren't LG driven. In fact, there were 9 CG members on the first LG mislynch, out of 14. If Mastin's town, then only 2 LG were on that wagon. The second LG mislynch had 6 CG members on it out of 8; if Nacho is town then it had 2 LG members on it. How is that us deliberately letting ourselves down? Your acting like we pushed the wagons on our own members when that wasn't the fact. And I'm not saying that it's CG's fault that we lost two members of our team due to mislynches, but I just want you to see the situation as it is. We worked together as a town. Your team suffered less losses, but our team helped you get to where you are, and you're completely discounting that and you should feel really bad about that.

Why should I feel bad about that? Why should I feel bad about discounting irrelevant information? If it wouldn't be fine to do it in revenge then it's not acceptable to do it in thanks.

[Empking]

If I get prodded they'll be heck to pay.