Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Shadow1psc]

New day one hurray. Anyone have the cache of the stuff that was lost? I'm sure it's stell relevant. I posted when the topic was like a page old, went away for the weekend then the site was down so I literally saw nothing.

[Shadow1psc]

Lemon I think you'll find that is neither funny or likely to stop people from voting you.
The other Shadow: The old Day 1 is linked in the third mod post. Not hard to find.
If I see the word RVS one more time I'm gonna put a cap in someone's posterior.

Mod - In fairness, I hadn't put the link in until Shadow's post motivated me to do so.

<3

[Shadow1psc]

UNVOTE:



@Pine
Your vote sounds like your just trying to jump on a bandwagon against another player. You never even gave Norman the chance to retort to what MoI has posted. You are basically agreeing with him and throwing the lame "I totally saw that too and was going to say the same thing" excuse and then going on to agree with him.

I am tempted to place a pressure vote on you but that's really not my thing. I want to hear what you have to say to this.

I really hate non-committal posts like this.

VOTE: Foxace36

[Shadow1psc]

So Empking are you scum this game? If not you should be sheeping us.

@Pine

- Um … MoI isn’t a part of this hydra. Didn’t you see our Sig?

I’d totally vote Foxace for Post 40 where he unvotes what I assume is RVS and doesn’t revote despite saying Pine is scummy. That is if I wasn’t already voting scum Norman.

I didn't revote because I'm not the type of player that likes to throw out votes willy nilly. I like to hear the player's defenses and what they have to say for themselves before I do anything hasty.

If I vote for you then you know damned well that I have good reason too and I'm not likely going to be convinced otherwise. It takes a lot for me to vote for someone.

That's like, the opposite of what you want to be doing.

[Shadow1psc]

So Empking are you scum this game? If not you should be sheeping us.

@Pine

- Um … MoI isn’t a part of this hydra. Didn’t you see our Sig?

I’d totally vote Foxace for Post 40 where he unvotes what I assume is RVS and doesn’t revote despite saying Pine is scummy. That is if I wasn’t already voting scum Norman.

I didn't revote because I'm not the type of player that likes to throw out votes willy nilly. I like to hear the player's defenses and what they have to say for themselves before I do anything hasty.

If I vote for you then you know damned well that I have good reason too and I'm not likely going to be convinced otherwise. It takes a lot for me to vote for someone.

That's like, the opposite of what you want to be doing.

Why is that? Please elaborate.


I want to make sure that I believe someone is scum before I vote for them. If I were to do otherwise than there is more of a chance to mislynch someone.

Your only way of pressuring someone is your vote. Saying "Well, I'd

like

to vote you" does two things;

1) Tells this person they can ignore you. No pressure, no reason to regard your 'suspicion' as anything important.
2) Paints you as non-committal and scummy. You don't throw your hat into VCA, there's no hard record of your stance so you can, come that person's flip, take whichever stance benefits you most.

[Shadow1psc]

So Empking are you scum this game? If not you should be sheeping us.

@Pine

- Um … MoI isn’t a part of this hydra. Didn’t you see our Sig?

I’d totally vote Foxace for Post 40 where he unvotes what I assume is RVS and doesn’t revote despite saying Pine is scummy. That is if I wasn’t already voting scum Norman.

I didn't revote because I'm not the type of player that likes to throw out votes willy nilly. I like to hear the player's defenses and what they have to say for themselves before I do anything hasty.

If I vote for you then you know damned well that I have good reason too and I'm not likely going to be convinced otherwise. It takes a lot for me to vote for someone.

That's like, the opposite of what you want to be doing.

Why is that? Please elaborate.


I want to make sure that I believe someone is scum before I vote for them. If I were to do otherwise than there is more of a chance to mislynch someone.

........


Anyways...


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Norman


You seem like the best candidate for a lynch right now?

What say you?

This made me lol.

[Shadow1psc]

How so?

I took your advice did I not? This site i obviously plays Mafia a different way so I took it upon myself to change and adapt.

I'm using the power of my vote to apply pressure just like you suggested. What is so funny about that?

There's also a fine line between sheeping and taking advice. Might I ask how/where you've played mafia before? Site based? Chat based?

[Shadow1psc]

How so?

I took your advice did I not? This site i obviously plays Mafia a different way so I took it upon myself to change and adapt.

I'm using the power of my vote to apply pressure just like you suggested. What is so funny about that?

There's also a fine line between sheeping and taking advice. Might I ask how/where you've played mafia before? Site based? Chat based?

It's site based. With my gaming clan on their forum.

And I don't sheep. I'm the type of player that will change and adapt and take advice as I see fit. I thought that you provided a good xplanation as to why I shouldn't be putting my votes off. Why would i just cast aside what you said? I'm not a stubborn person that will stick to my opinion no matter the circumstances or arguments being offered. If there is good reasoning offered (Which you had) then i will be willing to take the advice.

Ok, now my last question, which is directly related to my initial piece of advice:

Where is the pressure in having your vote down, then moving it somewhere else so quickly, before the initial person can respond? That's like wagging your finger and saying "I've got my eye on you mister!" Obviously you should pressure whoever you see worthy, and you're obviously not in RVS. To me, at least, you come across as the hyperactive noob towny, which I guess isn't a bad thing.

[Shadow1psc]

ManiacalLemon. You've earned yourself my distrust.

FoS: Lemons, MagnuaOfIllusion, Empking, Pine, and greenknight.

Until you 3 can tell me exactly why you're voting me, (exlcuding Lemons because I think he's trying to bluff me and make me think he's not a scumbag) you will remain on my FoS list.

As for Green Knight who recently asked why I'm asking these "random" questions... No these aren't random questions, genius, these are background checks and investigations.

So by the great power of deduction, your scum list and hunting abilities consists of people suspecting you? Is this correct?

[Shadow1psc]

I'm wary of the Norman wagon. I've seen enough people used as martyrs on day 1 for talking about lame things to know when town is lynching town. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone on that wagon is town.

[Shadow1psc]

actually, I could do more than this if there was more content.

11 pages isn't enough for you?

[Shadow1psc]

After reading that jumble of mess, all I have to say at the moment is
Why isn't foxface dead? Wasn't a daykill submitted on him? The mod posted, but no kill was made.

[Shadow1psc]

So Shadow – you are wary of the wagon on Norman because he’s a non-scum hunting troll and those people are lynched for being themselves but you think the entire wagon is Town? Then why were you still voting Foxace since he was on the wagon when you posted this?

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

[Shadow1psc]

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

So let me get this straight -

You've called Foxace Town on multiple occasions and yet your vote is still sitting on him even after you post this?

If your response revolves around the concept of an RVS vote don't bother running that up the flag-pole since votes are votes and keeping your vote parked on a Town read regardless of how much pressure they have is scummy.

Blah blah blah Fate hydra blah blah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CoolDog

As a rule of thumb I'm always wary of people who don't bother to read the rules.

actually, I could do more than this if there was more content.

11 pages isn't enough for you?

Read: 5 new pages with a lot of RVS and stupid stuff that is meaningless thrown around.

11 pages between the original game (which is still plenty relevant) and this new incarnation. If you couldn't find something to say by then about the play going on, you're not trying hard enough or you're dodgy scum. You're not a noob, and plenty has happened so I'm going to assume dodgy scum.

[Shadow1psc]

1) As a rule of thumb I'm always wary of people who don't read the sign-up thread. You can't tell who's

bussing

voting you again, Other Shadow? Your vote is made of fail.
2) Votes for Mhork would be shitty and you should not do them.
3) ML disappeared during this land of spam and Norman generating a magical wagon for being annoying. Almost like scum is lurking, watching the town tear itself apart..

What?

[Shadow1psc]

That still doesn't mean you should shrug off the 6 pages of the current game which arguably started out of RVS. I obviously know you were in the game before the reboot, we even had a short conversation. You were even a topic of discussion on pages 4 and 5, of which you did

not

comment on, so if you really want to get all semantics, you had 7 pages to comment on.

[Shadow1psc]

EBWOP: 8 pages*

[Shadow1psc]

@Lord Mhork

– Sure I eagerly await your attempt to explain your scummy posting.

Blah blah blah Fate hydra blah blah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CoolDog

Hohoho what do we have here? A cheeky fucking scumbag? I think so!!!!!

UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Shadow1psc

Shadoweh – so in regards to your second and third points –

2. Why exactly are you so strongly defending Mhork when he doesn’t have any significant votes ATM?
3. Your point here sounded better when ML made it at Post 126. Why are you parroting the person you look to be softly inferring is scum?

I also think your “I’m only going to pay attention to my target and give as little content as possible" stance sucks bilge-water and is totes scummy.

[Shadow1psc]

Totes bro.

[Shadow1psc]

Jesus, this game is moving quickly, sorry for my inactivity atm, but I should be able to comment more now:
From listening to Norman, he's either some sort of underappreciated genius or a stupid troll, however neither are particularly indicative of alignment but I'm tempted to keep him in just to see what he comes out with,

kondi

, if you've played with him before is there actually some kind of odd method here or is he just (the more likely option) an idiot?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3921198: Don't like Pines a) attempt at buddying and b) jumping on the Norman bandwagon here.
Also on my potential scum list is Empking, hasn't posted much apart from changing his vote 3 times and didn't give much reasoning for any of those.
MaguaofIllusion seems fairly town atm, along with Tammy.
Foxace seems like slightly newb town, his reaction to the fake daykill seemed fairly genuine, although I still don't like his 'Pine is inactive' argument which he never explained

@Foxace

was Pine being particularly inactive?

First of all idk if you noticed but, there's like 3 people with similar names. Magua, MaguaOfIllusion, and MagnaOfIllusion. The one who called me a troll though, he's probably a scumbag. Also my investigations lead Lemons being somewhat a scumbag. I think atleast one person on my FoS list is a scumbag.

I'm also about to add Shadow to it because he isn't answering that guy's question...

If it doesn't go well... Plan B...

Just for future reference, there are two Shadows in this game, and 'that guy' is fairly generic.

[Shadow1psc]

I've been on every day since the restart. I have a post on page one of

both

days. What in the blue fuck are you talking about.

[Shadow1psc]

Urge to follow policy lynch rising...

[Shadow1psc]

Urge to follow policy lynch rising...

Yeah you do that. And while you're at it why don't you assassinate the vigilante!

I don't know Norman's meta, but is this par for the course?

[Shadow1psc]

...WTF?....Really? What is all of this?

VOTE:shadow1psc

The one thing I actually remeber through reading this is that you changed your vote after someone accussed you of voting elsewhere. I don't like the vibes that's sending me.

So that stuck, but you didn't bother to go back for context? Can you tell me why I changed my vote without going back and reading it, or did you just see that someone mentioned I had my vote parked somewhere and I changed it willy-nilly?

@hydraofillusion

serious question, but does passive play usually = scum tell? I was passive as hell in ASoS. I assume Magua wrote that, and in turn is now really wary of my play re: noob plea in AFfC. You'll find that my day one play is fairly consistent throughout any game because of the general day one crap. The last game especially (even as scum) dampened my spirits thanks to how simply bad town played day 1/2.

My 'active' play here though, is that (and I'll double back to confirm this after my quick catch up this morning) CoolDog has said nothing in response to my accusations.

[Shadow1psc]

I would say he should at least claim first, but something that tells me that would just make this a more confusing endeavor.

[Shadow1psc]

So Shadow – you are wary of the wagon on Norman because he’s a non-scum hunting troll and those people are lynched for being themselves but you think the entire wagon is Town? Then why were you still voting Foxace since he was on the wagon when you posted this?

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

Did you find the thing that struck you as wrong?

Yes, my case against Cooldog was elaborated on. Mostly his questions page 1 and 2 which seemed like misdirection, about town sizes, and then the general lack of participation re: people voting him/lobbying suspicion at him.

[Shadow1psc]

Shadow1psc is still passive, still don't like.
UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Pine

I addressed this, but obviously not well enough?

Also, seriously, is anyone reading my posts? CoolDog posted EXACTLY after my last post, and still addresses nothing. I would quote them, but Cooldog's post in itself is a quote answer wall. Posts # 400 and 401.

[Shadow1psc]

Shadow1psc is still passive, still don't like.
UNVOTE: Norman
VOTE: Pine

I addressed this, but obviously not well enough?

Also, seriously, is anyone reading my posts? CoolDog posted EXACTLY after my last post, and still addresses nothing. I would quote them, but Cooldog's post in itself is a quote answer wall. Posts # 400 and 401.

This still stands. ^

Right, zdenek gets some scum points for his stupid questioning of Tammy's questions. Asking questions is a fairly common and completely valid playstyle, and I don't like the way z was trying to read so much into them, and his argument looked a little like he was reaching. Also he goes in three hours from 'I like Shadoweh's points against Pine, to voting Shaodweh ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3926095 and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3926204).
And foxace's recent posts are makink him look scummier and scummier, would be happy lynching him atm.
My vote still on Norman, we're not going to get anywhere with him playing, and I could be persuaded to switch my vote to Pine if needed, but at least he's vaguely playing, going to ISO foxace and see how scummy he looks.

Could you make your posts... easier to read by any chance?

[Shadow1psc]

Ok, at least I know people can read my posts now.

@CoolDog

: Bolded for emphasis, are you just flat out ignoring my posts?

[Shadow1psc]

everything cool dog says is irrelevant, because he's scum.

+1

[Shadow1psc]

-1 to all these people talking about cooldog, not voting him, and not responding to my own initial thoughts and accusations on him.

[Shadow1psc]

11 pages over the weekend, I'm impressed and I will catch up after I've caught up with work.

[Shadow1psc]

@Shadow1psc - I reread CoolDog, here and in the other thread, and I don't get why you think he's scum. I understand your original point. I've seen scum in almost every game I've been in feign ignorance about the setup or some aspect that they should definitely know about, so it's good to be a bit weary about it, but the thing is it looks like pretty genuine confusion, and that coupled with his posts in this incarnation, which look quite town, I don't see the accusations. I don't know why you keep harping on it either. A good number of your posts are harping on CoolDog, this situation, and anyone who hasn't acknowledged it. Are you basing your suspicion of him solely on his confusion in the original thread?

Have you found that scum is more likely to not read the rules?

There's not much to go on day one. In my experience people will argue about mechanics, post nonsense, and scum will distance/bus hard, when/if they do post at all. A lot of day one is town pulling itself apart, and the smart scum will sit back and let it happen. My other theory is that scum are also much less likely to care about mechanics and reading first posts/rules because they being the informed minority already gives a sense of security imo. Now, you could say at this point then that why would someone on the scum team bother to question those rules, but then you have one of two things happening; a slip, or fake content. Nothing about CoolDog's posts have seemed genuine, and his general disinterest and ability to repeatedly slip under the radar until we banded together to actually form a train and get an inquiry going, which actually cause CoolDog to form some real responses to people was my goal, should be the goal of anyone playing. To get some content, to finally be able to tell if he is playing reactive, or if he's lurking, trying to avoid the camera eye.

This is also why I made sure to raise an eyebrow every time Magua called me passive. I don't get if he was trying to get a rise out of me, or truly believes that the way I have been playing is different than I normally play/worse than people like CoolDog's play. Passive/Reactive play isn't always a scum tell in and of itself. so I'm going to really take a hard look at CoolDog's responses to the train on him, but I don't like the people that amounted to it. It sprang up almost instantly because I called out someone for voicing suspicion, but not voting, and then snowballed to a strange degree that makes me re-think the wagons that were leading at the time.

Pine's claim, as mentioned before, was also the most out of place thing I've ever seen, and I think even Pine is confused as to what a wagon, or being close to lynch, or even what votes are. You don't claim a PR as town unprovoked, even if you think people had expressed an opinion of lynching you, enough to bring the hammer. We have a smart enough pool of players to let someone sit at L-4/L-3/L-2 so they can claim and to not quick hammer (if AFfC taught us anything).

[Shadow1psc]

A lot of day one is town pulling itself apart, and the smart scum will sit back and let it happen. My other theory is that scum are also much less likely to care about mechanics and reading first posts/rules because they being the informed minority already gives a sense of security imo. Now, you could say at this point then that why would someone on the scum team bother to question those rules, but then you have one of two things happening; a slip, or fake content.

Why CD and not me, then?

Cooldog is the person that stuck out due to the short dialog we had directly on day 1 of the original thread. Then the weekend hit, and I don't usually read on the weekends, so then there was the crash, so CoolDog was the one thing that stuck and irked me, even after the re-read. I assume you're not admitting to either fake content or scum slipping, (though please correct me if I'm wrong and we should lynch you :O) but the one game I've played with you, you were town and pretty consistent with how you're posting now.

[Shadow1psc]

^I'm going to go read that original dialog. I'll comment on it. Funny how after 35 pages you case is basically on some dialog that happened around page -5.

That's not what my case is based on, just what gave me initial suspicion, because lolday1. If you read any of my other posts concerning you, you'd find the other reasons why I placed my vote on you. Very little of it has to do with those first pages, even my last post says as much. It was a hint at either feigning ignorance, or faking content/discussion, and you never really picked up the ball into any relevant discussion the game held.

[Shadow1psc]

Yes, and yes.

[Shadow1psc]

SCUMSLIP! Actually, that was sorta a joke. I'll get to whatever you posted about me when I have more time to read and formulate a post.

See, this is the problem I do indeed have with you. it's been like a week since I started digging into you, and you didn't even respond to a post of mine until there was a wagon on you, despite me asking direct questions and formulating logical questions. The one saving grace you have right now are the people who jumped on your wagon.

[Shadow1psc]

@ CoolDog

Your post is kinda backwards, but my major problem with you was remedied when I brought the pressure back on you (again, the last pages from the original topic had people talking about you, and of course it was dropped with the gap between then and the new topic). Obviously, you're not going to be lynched today, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Instead, we have self destructing Foxace, who looks guilty for coming out of the gate strong, then kinda crumbling and disappearing instead of persisting to defend himself. Maybe defeated scum with a team urging him to just sit back and not make any more connections.

We have Norman, who continues to be terrible. If he's town, there's no way scum are going to do us the pleasure of offing him for us, no matter how many roles he soft claims. Which means to town, if he really is scum trying to crazy his way out of a paper bag, it's easier to take the policy lynch now than end up in mylo/lylo with him. Beyond that we have a lot of people trying to formulate drastic cases based on loldayone. Not that day one information is useless, but day one is not the day all of you wasting your time trying to get big name players lynched is going to happen. People who are actually generating content and connections we can look in to, that will be helpful later, not today.

So, with limited time, regretfully UNVOTE:
VOTE: Norman

[Shadow1psc]

Can we please just lynch that?

[Shadow1psc]

Can we please just lynch that?

HAH! I laugh at you Shadow, but you can't you know why? Because I'm no longer part of your assembly, you piece of shit. You can try to lynch me all you want but you know deep down that I cannot be for I am diplomtically immune!

Hahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahaha HA! IN YOUR FACE SHADOW! YEAH! SUCK ON IT!

This is amusing but not very helpful.

Care to give us some reads on the current suspects instead?

Why are you trying to get

anything

out of Norman?

@Greenknight

– my reference to a Strawman argument was in reference to the specific statement “Basically he doesn't get any townpoints for claiming and I view pine as mildly suspicious currently.”

You’d need to point me to the post where I indicated that Pine WAS getting Town points for his claim.

Am I attacking anyone for holding the position that Pine gets town points for claiming? Am I even implying that YOU said Pine was getting town points? No. So how can you say that I'm making a strawman argument?

Pine

does not

get town cred for that botched claim, and I think we've all agreed that it was the worst, most unprovoked claim in the history of serious claims. I don't know enough about Pine's town play, but I would support his lynch right now as the one day one lynch with merit behind it, where offing that 'power' doesn't really hurt us if somehow that was a true claim. As it stands, I think Norman's just full of hot air and mocking everyone in this game at this point.

[Shadow1psc]

Monday morning post obligatory.

[Shadow1psc]

Tammy, before I go back to read the pages I missed over the weekend (I'm still catching up on real world monday morning job stuff), is there any particular reason we're not getting rid of Norman?

[Shadow1psc]

Tammy, before I go back to read the pages I missed over the weekend (I'm still catching up on real world monday morning job stuff), is there any particular reason we're not getting rid of Norman?

I don't know. He went away and largely dropped from people's focus I think. To be honest, I need to read a lot of the last week again as I mostly got caught up in my distraction and need to get a broader picture and some better reads.

Did you just admit to tunneling? I'm not calling this out as something completely negative, I'm just wondering if that's how you view your own posting at this point.

[Shadow1psc]

I could happily go with a zde lynch. I actually think it might be slightly better than a fox lynch. However, with the new deadline extension I can be around to switch my vote in time.

unvote, vote: zde

... obv, massive TV scum is obv. I think that pretty much sums up what I think of zde. Non contributor after about page 10 due to only talking about tammy.
@trekker, what was the point of your last post? Scum/vig (if you are there, please be there), for the love of god shoot this guy.

I'm marking this for the post-flip. It's so wishy washy it hurts.

[Shadow1psc]

I'm pretty sure that the rest of my wagon is scum or people who haven't actually read the thread and don't really care who gets lynched.

Given how AFfC played out, and most day 1's in general, I'd be surprised if there were more than 2 scum on your wagon (

if you are town

). I don't see scum bussing hard day 1.

[Shadow1psc]

@MaguaofIllusion #1184 (I assume Magna): How am I keeping a low profile? I've blatantly taken a stance, given opinions, and also more or less given my definite opinion that I don't like either leading wagon as well. I'm pretty sure that's enough information on the board for you to spin me as scum, you can't have it both ways, I'm either not posting enough/making enough relevant content and you can't determine my alignment (you know damn well I don't lurk, as scum or town), or I've been posting plenty and have given you enough information to determine that I, in your eyes, am scum.

Which is it?

[Shadow1psc]

So I'm about to rush out the door, with no time to follow through on this, but I have to write it down before I forget.

Last night, I had a dream, which I'm pretty sure was my subconscious representing this game.

I was the hero, fighting a losing battle. We did something desperate to try and end things. We also saved a fox. Whether that's Zdenek, Foxace, or both, I dunno, but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be at least one of 'em.

In the climatic battle, I was fighting six others. The main antagonist was a queen bee, who I'm pretty sure was supposed to be Tammy. LMP was there, as himself. mith was there, and I'm fairly certain that's supposed to represent MoI, due to their signature. Two I don't remember (the dream's already slipping away), and the last one was Glork, though I can't make any sense of who that's supposed to represent.

I'll ponder the implications of it when I return. Be back soon.

I will follow this man to the ends of the Earth.

[Shadow1psc]

So shadowpsc1,

This one's really old...

So Shadow – you are wary of the wagon on Norman because he’s a non-scum hunting troll and those people are lynched for being themselves but you think the entire wagon is Town? Then why were you still voting Foxace since he was on the wagon when you posted this?

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions

. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

Where are these ocassions? Because I ISO'd you and I honestly can't find them.

How so?

I took your advice did I not? This site i obviously plays Mafia a different way so I took it upon myself to change and adapt.

I'm using the power of my vote to apply pressure just like you suggested. What is so funny about that?

There's also a fine line between sheeping and taking advice. Might I ask how/where you've played mafia before? Site based? Chat based?

It's site based. With my gaming clan on their forum.

And I don't sheep. I'm the type of player that will change and adapt and take advice as I see fit. I thought that you provided a good xplanation as to why I shouldn't be putting my votes off. Why would i just cast aside what you said? I'm not a stubborn person that will stick to my opinion no matter the circumstances or arguments being offered. If there is good reasoning offered (Which you had) then i will be willing to take the advice.

Ok, now my last question, which is directly related to my initial piece of advice:

Where is the pressure in having your vote down, then moving it somewhere else so quickly, before the initial person can respond? That's like wagging your finger and saying "I've got my eye on you mister!" Obviously you should pressure whoever you see worthy, and you're obviously not in RVS. To me, at least, you come across as the hyperactive noob towny, which I guess isn't a bad thing.

I guess it was just the once that I actually voiced it, but I was more thinking it as we had our back and forth. And for the record, if I had to choose to get rid of one of the candidates, I'd rather keep Zdenek. We've obviously broken Foxace's spirit, and maybe he's trying a gambit, but were he to stay around, I know we'd get less out of him at this point than Zde, who puts in much more logical and thought out posts at this point.

[Shadow1psc]

Holy terrible quote system. Here is my post separated from the above -

I guess it was just the once that I actually voiced it, but I was more thinking it as we had our back and forth. And for the record, if I had to choose to get rid of one of the candidates, I'd rather keep Zdenek. We've obviously broken Foxace's spirit, and maybe he's trying a gambit, but were he to stay around, I know we'd get less out of him at this point than Zde, who puts in much more logical and thought out posts at this point.

[Shadow1psc]

How many 'til foxace lynch at this point? I'll vote/hammer if we're ready to end.

[Shadow1psc]

I'm gonna go ahead and place my vote on him then.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Foxace

Junpei: ?

[Shadow1psc]

Was that hammer?

[Shadow1psc]

Yeah I'll jump on that wagon again.

VOTE: Cooldog

[Shadow1psc]

@ Zar, post 1291 (I'm not going to quote something that long on a prior page);

I'm not sure where your case comes from, because you basically highlighted the majority of my posts as contributing/hunting/interacting in meaningful ways.

If your sole purpose here is to highlight the fact that my list of people I'd want hung day one is short, I'd like you to tell me who's isn't, and why they aren't scummy for it. I'd also like to hear why, then, you don't think Tammy is scum.

[Shadow1psc]

The wagon on AV stinks. AV's awesome. And town. AV's also the counterwagon to Cooldog, which supports the "AV town" theory quite nicely.

If you subscribe to the counterwagon theory, why are you not hunting the people that caused Foxace to die when Zdenek became a viable lynch? Oh wait, it's

because you were one of them

...

LoL hypocrit much? You can't use counterwagon theories when the alignments of both wagoned players are as of yet unknown. Not to mention that AV's reason for thinking CD is scum is complete bullshit...do you disagree?

Here's the problem with that. The counterwagon theory implies that CD or Zde are scum (it's a decent argument, not much to go on), and it's a much more narrow hunt than taking the 7-14 people propagating the counterwagons to, implicitly, 'save their buddy'. Obviously not everyone on the Foxace wagon is scum, and I would be really surprised if scum went out of their way to bail out either CD or Zde. At the end of the day, if you're going to subscribe to the theory at all, starting with the people on a 'counter wagon' as opposed to the targets themselves is downright silly.

[Shadow1psc]

I chose MoI because whatever dicks of yours he'd sucked, I was having a hard time getting a firm read on him. He always looks obvTown, even when he's scum. If I got a Chaotic alignment out of him, then I'd know he was either an ally or a disinterested third party to me.

I'm going to agree that MoI (but we must remember there was a Magua in that hydra) has played similarly regardless of town/scum as of this flip, but I do have to agree that as a night one

alignment

scan target, he was a bad choice.

[Shadow1psc]

Interesting note: Chaotic Good Townies have no reason to care about me at this point. I've claimed Bard, I can't possibly be an issue for CG Town. CE just shouldn't give a fuck about me, they know I'm not one of them and neither am I one of their targets.

Therefore, both CoolDog and Zdenek are both Lawful. One or both probably LE scum.

There's so very much wrong with this post, but I'm not sure if Pine just sounds like someone who doesn't really grasp the implications of outting himself, or who he should be targeting in this setup.

[Shadow1psc]

@ Zar, post 1291 (I'm not going to quote something that long on a prior page);

I'm not sure where your case comes from, because you basically highlighted the majority of my posts as contributing/hunting/interacting in meaningful ways.

If your sole purpose here is to highlight the fact that my list of people I'd want hung day one is short, I'd like you to tell me who's isn't, and why they aren't scummy for it. I'd also like to hear why, then, you don't think Tammy is scum.

@shadow1psc: let me see if I got this straight: your defense agaisnt your narrow focus is that others have a narrow focus too? Why are you only focused on two people out of 25 other players? How, in your opinion, does me suspecting you because you have 2 suspects compares to my stance on Tammy?

You have been around since this game started, how is it that of all the players that have come and gone, you only have 2 suspects?. You were very centered of Foxace very early on, but after Foxace started catching on attention you backed out of it. Why did you end up concluding Foxace was town? Also, why did you keep your vote on Foxace if you thought he was town, and changed it after being called out for it in #190?

Also AV: Power Roles shouldn't claim. The less information scum has, the better. I don't think Doc should claim.

My defense against my 'narrow focus' is that your claim (too narrow focus, on day one, in a large theme game with multiple replacements) is ridiculous. There's no really explaining it beyond that. By my account through your 18 posts you've only made two decent reads, one of which is wrong, so where's your broad focus? Just because someone is following one or maybe two suspects, doesn't mean that they aren't keeping some of their reads close to the chest. I don't make it a habit of following dead end leads with the clock running low. You read my ISO, I was voting Foxace, then Cooldog, then

Norman

for being the preferable lynch in yesterday's end day scenario, then settling back on Foxace, while also solidifying my point that I believe Foxace was town, that I think Zde is also town, and if not he is contributing enough to be caught as scum later (Foxace had given up).

Your assertion that my play is narrow/unfocused/whatever is crap. #190 was explained (you're starting to sound like you skimmed my ISO, not read it to make a real case). And my point still stands, why specifically choose me to come with the narrow claim? What counts as too narrow, not voting enough people? Where's the cap there, and how many other people fall under this? This is a serious question that I would like you to think about, logically respond to, and tell me why, once you've done that, that your vote on me has any merit.

[Shadow1psc]

Wow, this degenerated fast, but I see CoolDog is still not hunting scum. I'm really wary of Pine's jump there, my jury is still out on his claim and disposition at this point. I'm having a real problem wrapping my head around the implications of power roles in this particular game, it gives me great pause towards Pine, because he didn't seem to grasp the implications of 'investigating MoI', then he turns around and suddenly understands everything forever about the implications of roleblocking and scum motivation, like maybe he has someone on the scum team coaching him.

Hmm.

[Shadow1psc]

Yeah, Tammy's obvtown.

@Pine: Because I said so. Also his very first post where he started discussing 4 possible town teams or something (idr the exact details) is an obvious town tell and anyone saying different is super wrong. Also I'm pretty good at mafia and my gut reads are generally quite accurate. Pretty please?

Read up to here so far, but I would beg to differ. Not because I think that something like that is scummy, but because it seems disingenuous to me with how CD continues to play. Call it more gut than anything, but I wouldn't write off something as a major tell, especially in the first page of a game when related to setup speculation. I'd be just as likely to try to spin speculation as scum to both look town and possibly confuse town, especially being the informed minority.

[Shadow1psc]

Hi ya'll lets get this fustercluck back on track shall we? As a rule when I replace in I only read the last ten pages. This is what I have just done. If there is pertinent information beyond that, tell me and quote the area, I'll go back and re read it. Here's what I got from the last ten pages.

Mos Scum=Pine Scum
Mos Scum= Junpei town
Junpei Town= Mos Scum
Cool dog Scum= Tammy scum
HLScum=Tammy town
Tammy Town=HL Scum
Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum
Empking= Town
Lost Butterfly= town
BB= possible scum (major lurking=BB scum)
Pine Scum= PV town
PIneSCUm =GV town
MOS SCum= BB Town

VOTE: MOS This lynch gives us a lot of information as well as likely being scum, lets get this rolling folks.

You can't make connections like this in a two scum game this early. You could say X is scum, Y probably isn't on the same team, but that doesn't mean they aren't genuinely scum hunting each other.

[Shadow1psc]

What the fuck, Zdenek? I never said you lied about your alignment. You haven't even claimed it

He claimed CG commoner a couple days before deadline.

Oh. So he did. Okay, I was assuming he wasn't a complete moron. I was basing my assertion of Lawful alignment entirely on his aggressiveness towards me. To a Chaotic alignment, I'm simply not a threat, Good or Evil.

I'd say it was interesting that Zdenek was fanatically hunting someone whose life or death is (individually) irrelevant to his wincon, but he's got a serious case of confirmation bias going on over there.

Was that a scum claim? You can't use the defense that people of opposite alignment should ignore you. The best thing to do here is to not worry about a claim (because scum aren't going to come out and say "I'm lawful scum, all you chaotic people ignore me and I'll help you find chaotic scum!"), and worry about who's scum, and who isn't scum. If someone thinks you're scum Pine, it shouldn't matter if they are Lawful/Chaotic town. You need to die.

[Shadow1psc]

Really? Why the fuck would I lie about my ethical alignment, when I know for a fact that ethic-confirming roles exist? It's a completely unnecessary risk. Occam's Razor demands that if I be scum, I would be CE.

I think the best evidence yet (and that's saying a lot) against Zdenek is the specificity of his accusations.

What is this garbage?

I think you are lying about your role, so I don't actually think that you know about the existence of ethic-confirming roles, and that you are lying because that is probably the correct scum play.

Unless Pine is being coached hard (something I proposed in the first place), I don't think that is the case.

In answer to Pine's original question though, why would anyone lie about anything ever? Scum don't lie? Preposterous!

[Shadow1psc]

@GK 1654

I concur. People insist on calling CD town, I'm not convinced, but I would like to see Pine hang after all the discussion that has gone on. Sorry for the small posts, figured it'd be easier to read, and people more likely to read than one giant post with quote walls.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

[Shadow1psc]

I actually think we should lynch AV and force Pine to investigate Zdenek.

What's to stop Pine from lying, getting a lynch on Zde, and then we just lynch Pine anyway? Do you think Pine as scum with an alignment cop is a plausible scenario?

[Shadow1psc]

Or hell, what's to say Pine isn't completely gambiting (He didn't exactly give us new information about MoI...), and he just agrees that Zde is CG?

[Shadow1psc]

^ CooLDog - Can you tell me why he would lie about being roleblocked? MoI's alignment was made public upon his death. If Pine was going to lie about any of it, why not just say, "I checked MoI and he was lawful"? Why make a big deal about needed confirmation from Seacore on something first?

Scum coaching. Aliens. Pine actually playing well as scum.

[Shadow1psc]

Picking up prod before I leave work, I've been reading. I just don't really know what to make of this game right now.

[Shadow1psc]

As in, I need to do some re-reads, and all the replacements makes ISOing more of a chore than normal. I'll come back with something substantial, if current discussion doesn't stop treading the same ground over and over.

[Shadow1psc]

your insults irritate me, desist.

UNVOTE: VOTE: zdenek

Where did that come from?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CoolDog

There's still plenty of time to take this guy down.

[Shadow1psc]

Shadow why is cooldog scum? I forget and stuff, refresh my memory.

Them reasons for voting BBmolla certainly are reasons. They just happen to be pretty poor ones, oh well.

I think it was something along the lines of my posts are contrived and I'm not really adding content. And I'm lurking. And I'm not scum hunting. Something along those lines.

More or less.

[Shadow1psc]

Lurking, fluffing, lynch em all!

[Shadow1psc]

Also,

CooLDoG post count: 124
Shadow1psc post count: 72

Lurking I am not.

I never called you a lurker (just fluffy).

UNVOTE: Cooldog
VOTE: Cooldog

[Shadow1psc]

I don't find enough definite evidence beyond the whole 'lurking' factor, but this more comes off the same as everyone else who's replaced into a 900+ post game that is fairly active. He muddled in to current discussion, has opinions, and posts infrequently. Maybe I can relate to his stance because I am also finding it hard to re-read the game, but I think we stand to gain more relational evidence by lynching someone who's been around and consistently looked scummy (CD), or is playing terribly (Pine). Of course if BB flips scum, I'm going to look shady, so I'll acknowledge that now, but I think lynching lurkers in a large theme game on day 2 is bad play.

[Shadow1psc]

It blows that my current counter wagons(Pine/Cooldog) are town.

Meh.

I'll claim when needed.

I haven't seen a vote count, but I've refrained from voting because I assume it's needed.

[Shadow1psc]

BB lynch is 'meh' for me but it seems like it's the only lynch that everyone can agree on, at least before the deadline - so I'm going to

VOTE:BBMolla

.
Town seems to have split in 2 over whether CoolDog is town or not, lets just assume for the moment that he's town and try and reach a productive lynch before deadline.

If you want more relational info vote AV then. No one has even attempted to refute the scumtells I have on him, and I believe a few people who weren't voting him still have him on their scum lists

Or Mastin, whom I just ISOed, who has been more concerned with "sounding town" than doing ANY scumhunting whatsoever.

I have a hard time reading AV. He seems like one of those players who, the longer he lives the more we should suspect him, yeah? The Mastin logic there is exactly how CD sounds to me.

[Shadow1psc]

Tomorrow, I will have a little more time on my hands.

Why replace in to such a large game them /woe

[Shadow1psc]

Or someone actually heeded the 'Dont be a derpvig night 1' rule. Or someone was blocked/doctored/jailed/bussed/whatever.

[Shadow1psc]

I wonder how many other people look at this thread, see a page filled with Norman and look away. <_<

Why would a Bard have the ability to detect alignment? The only classes that have alignment detection are Clerics and Paladins. I really want to hate the claim. Thinking about how the setup works though, It's not really possible to fakeclaim Lawful or Chaotic alignment detecting without making yourself caught scum. Because we haven't mass-claimed alignments, scum would have a 50-50 shot of getting it wrong every time. There was no reason to out yourself like that if you're telling the truth Pine, there are two huge wagons and neither of them are on you. :/

Does it fit with DnD flavour to have Pine be some sort of scum detector? I only ask because you weirdly ignore this posibility when the role actually does kind of make more sense as a scum role (it's sort of useless for town, tbh)

Has Mina posted at all?

[Shadow1psc]

Also Shadoweh is probably scum.

Anyone want to flash wagon her to make her come out of the woodwork?

I'd support this, we seem to be at an impasse.

[Shadow1psc]

Flavor meta in experimental game.

[Shadow1psc]

Yes, it's true that in regular D&D according to the 3.5 spell list, bards do not get alignment detection spells. However, in Pathfinder, which is D&D for all intents and purposes, there is a variant of the bard called detective, and on the detective bard's spell list are all of the alignment detection spells. So, it is not unheard of for a bard to have the detection spells.

If Seacore is sticking to 3.5 D&D, sure it's strange, but if not, there's no reason for a bard not to be able to cast that spell.

Flavor meta in experimental game.

[Shadow1psc]

Oh I don't know...read the thread, determine some type of solid reads, find some actual scum instead of just flip flopping all over the place when someone posts.

How often would you say you have scum pegged day 2 in large games?

[Shadow1psc]

I'd say thanks, but the unnecessary rudeness prevents me from it.

Why are people going off on random tangents like this so close to deadline? I'm not saying you have to pick one of the top wagons, but let's see some honest to goodness scumhunting, for fuck's sake! It seems like half the game isn't even trying and the other half is being retarded.

[Shadow1psc]

Oops, hit submit instead of reply. I didn't actually mean to address 2092, it was already addressed, and 2109:

Because it's day 2 in a large theme where tons of replacements can hide behind the re-reading excuse to be lurky scum, and everyone actually putting forth effort is at ends with eachother.

[Shadow1psc]

Well, maybe until just now, but there were conflicting wagons all day, where half the people posting believe X is town and Y is scum, and the other half believing the opposite. This has been the case with every wagon for both days nearly until deadline closes in and people have to make a choice. If I were to hypothesize with the little experience I have, I'd say maybe scum are slipping in to put forth the wagon that better serves their agenda...?

[Shadow1psc]

I'll switch, I'm just not going to facilitate a quick lynch/lynch without hearing the claim where (up until his last couple posts), I didn't feel BB was leaning so strongly scum. Then again, he could be pulling a Foxace, so yeah.

[Shadow1psc]

Hyperion

by Dan Simmons is a really good sci-fi book. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

No, any recreational reading time I get goes towards Feast for Crows.

I'm making decent progress on this so far, up to page 20 plus got through the cache file. Got a few strong town reads but I have a fuckload of weak scum reads so far. I'll probably continue reading through for another 2-3 hours and see if I can finish the thread in that time.

Faraday, do you think a mechanic such as "If Chaotic Town is lynched during the day then Lawful Evil don't get a night kill and only Chaotic Scum does" might be in play here because while I realize this is two separate games going on at one time the fact that there's just one lynch throws the balance out of it completely.

Lynch it.

[Shadow1psc]

Faraday, do you think a mechanic such as "If Chaotic Town is lynched during the day then Lawful Evil don't get a night kill and only Chaotic Scum does" might be in play here because while I realize this is two separate games going on at one time the fact that there's just one lynch throws the balance out of it completely.

Eh. Never really considered anything like that. I mean it's possible but it feels a bit 'meh' to me.

That comment feels way too specific to be a coincidental idea on day 2.

[Shadow1psc]

Damn these quotes. Faraday, you'd have some insight into this (though I know host meta is bad, especially here), but this game feels like a testing bed for what you might do in a later ASoIaF game, or like the natural evolution of what AFfC was. This game would go on forever if there was only one kill a night, and tbh having two night kills

doesn't

feel one sided to me when you've got scum vs. 3 factions and you take away their ability to thin the herd or even target the other scum team with a kill. That's my logical thought process, though I know fuckall about game balance. I'm just stating here and now though that if Regfan's idea turns out true, I think he's scum.

[Shadow1psc]

Shadoweh is Shadowmeh I can lynch it if necessary

If AV is scum I'm looking Shadoweh's way.

I'm pretty sure it's claiming time from you.

[Shadow1psc]

He did the same as scum in Dram's bastard and we lynched him for it.

Then why would he do it again here?

Humans are creatures of habit?

[Shadow1psc]

I don't understand what that had to do with night kill meta.

[Shadow1psc]

HAZE

Vote Shadoweh.

PLEASE.

Greenknight you too. Shadow1 should do it too.

Molla put a fucking vote on the viable counterwagon. Let's go.

My previous statement stands; I'm willing to put down my vote on the lead wagon come deadline, I'm just not doing it before a claim. I obviously expect a VT claim, but you never know with lurky people.

[Shadow1psc]

@ Mos

- I believe he did but it was attached to someone elses post as a response from memory and I'm not going to go hunting for it.

@ Shadowpsc

- I'll go over it one more time. In normal games scum have to take out the other scum faction to win, that's what balances multi-scum. In this game scum don't have to take out other scum to win meaning that it's a lot more scum sided, to balance it there's likely a mechanic in place that limits the kills.

My reads are taking me a lot longer then I predicted, might be another few hours.

I think the bit about 'Everyone can decide how they want to deal with their non-opponents in whatever way' is clue enough to the fact that this is not true. Scum can just as easily cross kill with one shot as two,

that

seems largely unbalanced, and your reasoning is weak.

[Shadow1psc]

Here's my problem Regfan - if you believe there's a killing limit,

you can't believe Pine is town

. Simple as that. There's no way that role is town if scum have the off chance of not being able to kill. Why, it would almost make sense for each scum team to have a scanner in the event that they can not kill, working in opposite of the kills (scum team that can't kill can scan type of deal). There's no way Pine has that role in a game where scum can be denied kills based on alignment lynches.

[Shadow1psc]

My previous statement stands; I'm willing to put down my vote on the lead wagon come deadline, I'm just not doing it before a claim. I obviously expect a VT claim, but you never know with lurky people.

Pick a wagon. Shadoweh or BBmolla. Leaving it to see which is biggest is a massive fucking cop out.

Fair enough. Besides the fact that I said I'd vote either, if you're asking me to rank them in preference, I'd like to get some content from either. BB strikes me more as town than Shadoweh does, not to say either of them is the paragon of town excellence, but I'd lynch Shadoweh over BB.

[Shadow1psc]

I think the bit about 'Everyone can decide how they want to deal with their non-opponents in whatever way' is clue enough to the fact that this is not true. Scum can just as easily cross kill with one shot as two,

that

seems largely unbalanced, and your reasoning is weak.

Again; I think chance of cross-killing is weak due to the fact scum can shoot obvtown players and avoid hitting the other faction 9 times out of 10 and one of the core difference between one night kill and two is the speed that players/town die in. With it being 2 games and only one lynch it's effectively a lynch per game every second day and if scum were to have a kill every night it's only 1/2 as fair as normal meaning I fail to see how this game can be balanced without some form of limitation on kills or a similar mechanic. I might not be right that it's a "If player lynched that faction can't kill" but there has to be some limitation.

Here's my problem Regfan - if you believe there's a killing limit,

you can't believe Pine is town

. Simple as that. There's no way that role is town if scum have the off chance of not being able to kill. Why, it would almost make sense for each scum team to have a scanner in the event that they can not kill, working in opposite of the kills (scum team that can't kill can scan type of deal). There's no way Pine has that role in a game where scum can be denied kills based on alignment lynches.

Your theory of "Scum team that can't kill can scan" actually makes a great deal of sense. With that said roles such as roleblocker, stalker ect. can easily weaken Pines role to the point where I believe it's possible for it to be a town role. I think a mass-claim a few days from now will completely clear it up.

@ LB -

I'll point out the specific posts about what I liked from Kondi tomorrow, now's drinking time!

@ AV -

I don't find Shadowehs first post to be a town-tell and I won't be changing to anyone else from her today other then Briz/Yourself.

See here's the problem. You're going out on too many limbs and assuming too many things about which no one (who is not scum or the host) could even begin to have a good idea for, and this is why I haven't liked you since your initial post. Not to mention your slot's previous inhabitants.

[Shadow1psc]

Hyperion

by Dan Simmons is a really good sci-fi book. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Faraday, do you think a mechanic such as "If Chaotic Town is lynched during the day then Lawful Evil don't get a night kill and only Chaotic Scum does" might be in play here because while I realize this is two separate games going on at one time the fact that there's just one lynch throws the balance out of it completely.

Can't be that. The day one lynch Foxace was Lawful Good and so was the night one kill MoI.

I want you to think about that. Long and hard. Get back to me.

[Shadow1psc]

lol.... and now we're going to drive BB to claim eh?

[Shadow1psc]

Hyperion

by Dan Simmons is a really good sci-fi book. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Faraday, do you think a mechanic such as "If Chaotic Town is lynched during the day then Lawful Evil don't get a night kill and only Chaotic Scum does" might be in play here because while I realize this is two separate games going on at one time the fact that there's just one lynch throws the balance out of it completely.

Can't be that. The day one lynch Foxace was Lawful Good and so was the night one kill MoI.

I want you to think about that. Long and hard. Get back to me.

I feel like the biggest idiot. I have been trying to think of what you meant for hours, and it just dawned on me. Serious lack of sleep not only leaves me in an easily annoyed state but apparently very slow.

This goes back to our earlier conversation, right? About scum pretending to not know stuff that they definitely should know and which is verifiable. (If you're not referring to this I'm completely lost.)

I see what you mean, and I think normally I'd be inclined to look at this as a definite tell. There's something about the whole mechanics discussion that seems like genuine interest to me though. Not that I'm discounting this at all, and I think it's definitely something to keep in mind. But I've seen Regfan as scum and as an innocent. He's behaving more like his innocent play than his scum play from first glance. It's enough to give me a basic positive feeling about him, but without seeing his interaction with people I can't be sure. He's someone I've put in the same box as Faraday - they both are replacing into slots that I had scum reads on, Faraday's far more than Regfan's though - I need to think about and evaluate them both, and it's something I just don't have the mental energy for right now.

Tammy is town.

My point was much more simplistic - scum can't differentiate their kills between chaotic/lawful night 1 >.>

[Shadow1psc]

So hungover right now. Shadowehs claims breadcrumb checks out enough that it's worth moving the lynch today. Probably will vote AV but if other people are interested in a Briz speed deadline lynch right now that'd be awesome because I'm pretty convinced he's scum, if not I'll be moving my vote to AV in 10 or so hours. Feeling better about Green (Mediumish town read) and Pere (Weakish town read) right now alonside Shadow1 moving from weak scum to nulltown.

Unvote, Vote: Briz

@ AV -

I don't think the speed in which a player wants to get out of RVS is a strong town-tell ftr, I push for it early as scum. As for why Skenvoy is town just download the cache and read the 5 pages and you'll understand why I lean towards that slot being town.

@ Shadow -

Here, I'll lay it out simple for you and this'll be the last time I do so because this is becoming infuriating. I'm a setup reviewer and have been elsewhere as well for a few years so I tend to try and take a look at mechanics on sites that I'm aware of the meta towards and find flaws ect. Multi-scum is balanced by scum being forced to cross-kill in multiple situations which puts town back in the game. This game doesn't have that element. Normal games (3 scum 10 town) are balanced by towns ability to lynch every day so it's 1 town directed kill sometimes 2 due to vig for every 1 from mafia. This game doesn't have that. Instead this game has 1 lynch for what effectively is 2 different games a day. So there

has

to be some mechanic in play here, alternating night kills perhaps (Odd/Even), kill limitations revolving around the lynch or something along those lines. Also if you respond to this be forewarned I likely won't respond because this is becoming pointless.

IGMEOY

!!

[Shadow1psc]

Yeah k, I'm a Lawful Good Wizard, with the ability "Hold Person," which makes a player unsuccessful at any Night action they try. AKA, Roleblocker.

I didn't use it cause I didn't want to mess anything up.

Good luck Lawful folks.

Read up to here, but doesn't this force either BB or Pine lynch? Pine claimed he was blocked...

[Shadow1psc]

UNVOTE: VOTE: shADOWEH
I still feel like lynching an uncced doc is wrong, but if this game really does follow DND 3.5 flavor. I've played that game for quite a long time and can say that in my knowledge I have never seena spell that protects based on casters alignment.

This sounds scummy as hell.

Also, if anyone wanted to get really in depth about this, add Shadoweh to the list of people who should have been

for

an alignment claim.

[Shadow1psc]

Yeah k, I'm a Lawful Good Wizard, with the ability "Hold Person," which makes a player unsuccessful at any Night action they try. AKA, Roleblocker.

I didn't use it cause I didn't want to mess anything up.

Good luck Lawful folks.

Read up to here, but doesn't this force either BB or Pine lynch? Pine claimed he was blocked...

There's probably a scum roleblocker.

That's where I'd leave the debate up to people more versed than I in setup meta of this community, but the other place I play, I don't think I've ever seen a town AND scum rollblocker in the same game. Town usually goes with a variant (driver, jailer, EBG).

[Shadow1psc]

Is Shadoweh at L-1?

[Shadow1psc]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadoweh

[Shadow1psc]

VOTE: Regfan

[Shadow1psc]

CD, Pine is not scum. He makes terrible decisions with his role, but he is not scum. You however, I still believe are scum, but no one is interested in you, they'd rather chase down Mastin for being weird, or BB for his also terrible play/claim.

For those questioning my vote for Regfan, I just wanted it marked. We're at the beginning of another long day, and I don't believe he is town. I have no real arguments towards this just yet, he just pings me very wrong. CD's logic would be sound, but Pine is town, and because I believe CD is scum trying to turn our information around on us, I'm going to UNVOTE: ;
VOTE: CoolDog

[Shadow1psc]

Let me ask AV, and anyone else, is your problem with Pine's choices, or do you believe they are safe 'fake' choices?

[Shadow1psc]

BB why do you want me to confirm whether you are a RB? Rolefishing much?

Let's say you're a kid. You have a hat on.

A little girl claims some kid with a hat came up to her and knocked her lolipop out of her hand. You know for a fact you were getting ice cream while it happened.

Should you be punished for the other kid's crime?

That is the stupidest analogy I've ever heard.

[Shadow1psc]

...if Pine was scum, why would he not just pretend to listen to us and claim OBVRESULT on someone who has already claimed their alignment?
.

That isn't a response to what CooLDoG said. CooLDoG said that action X is scum motivated because Y. You said that action X is not scum motivated because why wouldn't action X be action B. The issue here is that all that action X is what happened, not B. If action X is devoid of town motivation but has scum motivation, then pointing out another possible scum action in B does not change anything.

I disagree. CooLDoG is essentially saying that because Pine did NOT take action B, he's scum. I'm pointing out that *if* Pine was scum, the easiest play he could have made would be to do exactly what other people were telling him to do. Instead he chose to stick with his own plan, however much others disagree with it. I don't see the scum motivation in Pine's target choice.

Activly doing something that does not help the town is scummy. Elaborate on the Pine is town point. Show me town motivated actions,

not

the absence of scum motivations.

Also, I am saying that because Pine targeted CHESSKID he is scum.

@tammy, shadow1's case is that I am scum because I think pine is town. Thus, if pine flips scum I am town according to his premise.

I assume that's a typo, but you're taking the easy vote against someone who is obviously town at this point in time, coupled with every other thing I've had wrong with you. You're not generating content, and the discussion on Pine has already been clarified (I'm looking at you MoS), to, anyone thinking Pine is scum right believes

he is lying about his results and did not actually choose Chesskid (/MoI) as a target, and is scum making fake (easy) results

.

We also have to take a step and assert that, if this is the case and CoolDog is not wasting his own time, CD is Chaotic, otherwise he should be generating content elsewhere, and scumhunting with Pine as a 'backup' lynch option.

[Shadow1psc]

I did not forget, I rethought out the circumstances, and the people around it.

[Shadow1psc]

I did not forget, I rethought out the circumstances, and the people around it.

You go from being suspicious of Pine to saying that he's obviously town without any explanation of your thought process. I think you're scum who fucked up trying to push a wagon too hard.

You're not that dense.

[Shadow1psc]

I just skipped ahead to this page, and read Zdenek's case on you in 2517. It has merit, you can't just brush it off with disdain. Explain yourself.

You're refuting my defense of you? This game.

[Shadow1psc]

Pine, I accept the fact that you are bad at this game. Zdenek is actively rolefishing, so everyone else take note.

[Shadow1psc]

Pine, I accept the fact that you are bad at this game. Zdenek is actively rolefishing, so everyone else take note.

Let's see. If I'm a power role, and I've been suspicious of someone all game, and then investigate them and discover that I am wrong, I wouidn't call that person suddenly obv. town.

Shadow's soft-claim is bullshit. Let's lynch him.

So, your argument is that as scum, I would be stupid enough to forget that I had been calling someone scum all game, and that that wasn't the soft claim?

[Shadow1psc]

Pine, I accept the fact that you are bad at this game. Zdenek is actively rolefishing, so everyone else take note.

Let's see. If I'm a power role, and I've been suspicious of someone all game, and then investigate them and discover that I am wrong, I wouidn't call that person suddenly obv. town.

Shadow's soft-claim is bullshit. Let's lynch him.

So, your argument is that as scum, I would be stupid enough to forget that I had been calling someone scum all game, and that that wasn't the soft claim?

1. Yes.
2. I don't think that you as town would use the discovery of Pine being town to push the wagon on CooLDoG because if it was the case that you'd suspected Pine all game, and then discovered he was town, you'd be sympathetic towards CD's scum read on Pine.

Not when my case on CoolDog has had little to do with Pine until him taking what is (or would be to scum, imo) the easy way out. Scum would rather Pine be lynched and make the easy case, and not have to RB him every night. Cooldog's 3 suspects are all claimed (soft or otherwise)

town power

at this point. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?

[Shadow1psc]

I just skipped ahead to this page, and read Zdenek's case on you in 2517. It has merit, you can't just brush it off with disdain. Explain yourself.

You're refuting my defense of you? This game.

coaching. You guys have a qt for this. Use it next time.

My scum team:
Pine,BB,shadow

lynch in that order.

Quoting it in case you missed it, there should be

no feasible way

that CD believes we're all scum, and is being lazy.

[Shadow1psc]

No, I was saying that Shadow hasn't demonstrated an erratic playstyle so I can't imagine him just forgetting a scum read that he had a couple days after pushing it. Because I haven't seen erratic tendencies in his playstyle, I would imagine that he would have a reason for changing his mind. As far as his CooLDog suspicions, he's had those all game and they've been independent of his suspicions on Pine. He might be adding that to his suspicions now, I guess, but they don't form the basis of those suspicions.

So why shouldn't he be sympathetic towards CoolDog's apparent failure to read Pine correctly?

Because I've had a scum read on CD all game, and he's continuing to push the fact that Pine is scum based on the fact that his play is anti-town (it's not scummy, there's a difference). He's basically after lynching 3 claimed town power at this point (and believes they're all on the same scum team? what?). He's doing no work outside of that, and rather than be more sympathetic to his day 2 (and really, it was the entirety of his play day 2) pushing of Pine, I'm more suspicious of how hard he pushed for Pine's lynch, given everything else we had to work with.

[Shadow1psc]

refuses to take direction when there's unknown scum power out there? Uh huh...

[Shadow1psc]

^ That's the only defense I can make for Pine, I'd like to hear why Chesskid too.

[Shadow1psc]

Right, so why am I scummy for thinking he is scum?

No, I was saying that Shadow hasn't demonstrated an erratic playstyle so I can't imagine him just forgetting a scum read that he had a couple days after pushing it. Because I haven't seen erratic tendencies in his playstyle, I would imagine that he would have a reason for changing his mind. As far as his CooLDog suspicions, he's had those all game and they've been independent of his suspicions on Pine. He might be adding that to his suspicions now, I guess, but they don't form the basis of those suspicions.

So why shouldn't he be sympathetic towards CoolDog's apparent failure to read Pine correctly?

Because I've had a scum read on CD all game, and he's continuing to push the fact that Pine is scum based on the fact that his play is anti-town (it's not scummy, there's a difference). He's basically after lynching 3 claimed town power at this point (and believes they're all on the same scum team? what?). He's doing no work outside of that, and rather than be more sympathetic to his day 2 (and really, it was the entirety of his play day 2) pushing of Pine, I'm more suspicious of how hard he pushed for Pine's lynch, given everything else we had to work with.

[Shadow1psc]

This is the first time I don't find Chess completely off base.

[Shadow1psc]

ISO'd Briz, caught my name a couple times, this was nice:

after a quick ISO, AVoX actually looks like argumentative town.

I'll vote:
MoS
moneybags
ooba
Pine
LordMhork
Jackal
AVoX

D:

---

Of further note around the same sort of time:

Although BBMolla doesn't look that town, he doesn't look particularly scummy either.

BB lynch is 'meh' for me but it seems like it's the only lynch that everyone can agree on, at least before the deadline - so I'm going to

VOTE:BBMolla

.
Town seems to have split in 2 over whether CoolDog is town or not, lets just assume for the moment that he's town and try and reach a productive lynch before deadline.

Town is split on CD so "let's assume he's town" = ?
Especially considering he is split on BBMolla and votes him anyway (after calling Shadoweh town)

Then he reverses his view on Shadoweh after reading a case. Opportunistic timing maybe? Or wily town actually noticing a good lynch?

I know Reg's case boils down to a chaotic/sloppy scumlist, and I can see where he's coming from.
A good lynch.

And I find myself agreeing with CD.

...Christ.

This is the clearest example of why CoolDog isn't being lynched, but should be.

[Shadow1psc]

Are you actually following the game here Tammy?

Scum HAVE to lie about their ethics.
Therefore, if he is telling the truth, he is town (unless he cocked up and told the truth, but in that case it'd be obvious eventually so no harm done).
Not that it matters since Pine is scum so.

You missed the part about Shadoweh? IMO scum wouldn't lie about their ethics to create disinterest in the opposing scum group. Someone claiming Lawful is less likely to be gunned down by Chaotic scum.

[Shadow1psc]

Why is everyone blatantly ignoring the fact that caught scum

did not, in fact, lie about alignment

.

CD's argument makes no sense. If Chaotic wins, all chaotic is removed, and we're left with a town that still has to actually figure out who their opposing scum is. In fact, anyone claiming Chaotic left in the game would instantly be outed.

Someone make a logical claim as to why anyone would lie about their alignment or stfu about Pine's role

.

[Shadow1psc]

I see what you're saying, and I mistook the rules for a second, but that's not something likely to happen on day 1. A lie about their alignment is just as easy to get them caught late game as telling the truth because they don't know which faction is going to win first. In addition the fact that Pine's role has been outted, no one really has any reason to lie

at this stage in the game

[Shadow1psc]

Oversoul is playing really hyper and defensive for someone replacing into a 122 page game where there were a couple lynch leaders ahead of him at the time of replacing him.

[Shadow1psc]

Compare BB's play to mine today. Not saying it's justified, but it looks more like what happened to Foxace day 1 out of frustration.

[Shadow1psc]

Then you're not paying attention.

[Shadow1psc]

Shadow1 and Peregrine, vote Nacho. Your CoolDog wagon's going nowhere.

If you want I'll pretend to help you lynch him tomorrow if you vote nacho today! (I mean I won't, but we can pretend)

I will actually vote Nacho, but I will switch to BB to prevent a no lynch come deadline.

I will also switch to BB if I don't get at least one good contribution from him

before night 3

. At this stage in the game, if BB has resigned, we kind of have to lynch him.

[Shadow1psc]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

[Shadow1psc]

Post more.

[Shadow1psc]

And that's not 'post more often', that should really be 'contribute more' which I get is a vague thing to ask, except you aren't really saying anything when you do post. Get back into the game, even if you know you're town you can still be useful on the chopping block. Doubly so if there's a competing wagon. I'm pretty sure everyone in this game has been up for lynch as a town at some point or other, you don't simply give up and OMGUS everyone coming after you.

[Shadow1psc]

Explaining and providing examples of why you X player to be town, Y player to be scummy isn't generally filler, unless you're actually scum and fluff posting. Are you scum, and can't come up with compelling reasons to get a town lynch, or even throw a mate under the bus? I figure scum have the advantage this game, they can genuinely hunt another team, effectively putting everyone in the position to generate content. Are you just giving up?

[Shadow1psc]

But

why

do you have those reads. That's the important part BB. Work with me here.

[Shadow1psc]

Was that so hard?

[Shadow1psc]

What Junpei said. I think Shadoweh got caught because she wasn't paying attention and didn't think her claim through enough.

You guys finally get some sense and I'm not here to vote? Screw that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cooldog

[Shadow1psc]

Oh, and I quoted that, forgot I hit the queue button in all the excitement of the last page, but the obvious answer to MoS 3203 is that more than one person picked up on GK's soft counter.

[Shadow1psc]

Double implication is that nacho would be a buddy worth sacrificing himself for. Either way, this doesn't seem like another Magister Ludi.

[Shadow1psc]

Woooo lets all say what town chesskid would do

when instead we could think about why Pere didn't come out with this shit 24 hours earlier to give time for discussion instead of claiming a guilty with none.

I have no qualms lynching CD, but if he does not flip scum I am not allowing Pere to weasel out of this with any fucking explanation.

I believe everyone feels this way.

[Shadow1psc]

oh and ALL OUR SOFTCLAIMING PR'S better fucking use their roles in an effective fashion.

no pine's PLZ.

You mean besides Pine?

[Shadow1psc]

So uh... Yeah. I was right about that from page 1 of the original game. Booya. Interestingly enough, I believe Mina (the lost butterfly slot) is town. Faraday was giving me weird vibes, but Ive also never played with him.

[Shadow1psc]

Feysal, can you confirm or deny that you were blocked?

Holy rolefishing, Batman.

Vote: Feysal

Hunch. I can't see any reason scum would lock me down, then just decide not to the third night. My hunch is that a roleblocker got blocked.

If this is true I'm going to laugh and laugh.

But, why then were none of the claimed town powers roleblocked last night...? Why those kills?

[Shadow1psc]

Two possibilities?

Feysal is scum, was blocked.

BB is scum, no-actioned and is trying to push a town lynch wagon along.

In this situation, if BB were town, wouldn't BB have been the optimal scum block target? Wouldn't that have been the case Night 2 as well?

[Shadow1psc]

And WHY are you even trying to interfere with someone else's role decisions anyway?

Because once you claim a role and play it in hilariously anti-town fashion you get leashed. That's how it works.

and yes, I'd be for lynching Pine if there was one kill.

The problem with your idea is that Pine WAS blocked n2 and there was 2 kills.

[Shadow1psc]

Unless you think he's scum power that didn't hinder you in any way.

[Shadow1psc]

Pine would not be performing his team's kill after he fucking claiming cop in a multiscum
until he is the last scum left on his team

Obviously, but you'd think then that he wouldn't have moved at all night 2, correct? Is that your assertion?

[Shadow1psc]

I could care less about your respect, it has nothing to do with this game, and as it stands I've been more correct so far than yourself, or even the majority of the 'good' players who thought CD was town. That post had nothing to do with this game and was uncalled for.

Back on topic, Pine did not lie about his night 2 action.

[Shadow1psc]

Chess could be scum, lawful evil and covering his bases, doesn't feel right though still off. Emp is town.

Pine is an evil power role, obv. ( chaotic evil role blocker).

Now leave him alone and help me find the lawful evil team. roleblocking him is a good idea, but I don't care how many kills there are, he's scum.

You want to rethink that? Pine can't be a roleblocker.

[Shadow1psc]

I thought that too Pine, but I confirmed with the mod.

[Shadow1psc]

For clarification, I don't have mod confirmation that you were blocked, but confirmation that my result was returned regardless of any blocker interaction.

[Shadow1psc]

Eh, it's pretty clear to anyone who is paying attention what I did night two. I was able to track Pine, and I successfully tracked him to Chesskid. As soon as Pine claimed block, I consulted Seacore to make sure that Pine being blocked would return this result to me even if he was (in case he was lying about being blocked, in which case I would have been all over him).

[Shadow1psc]

Go ahead and ask him.

[Shadow1psc]

Why wouldn't scum block any claimed (soft or otherwise) PR last night?

[Shadow1psc]

Thanks Seacore. Also, is that another patented Feysal gambit I see coming?

[Shadow1psc]

BB, if you refuse to RB pine then he needs to die, and all the lawful good town will leave, is that what you want?

BB, you should roleblock me tonight.

Did you both ignore the fact that I more or less proved Pine is innocent? If anyone's lying, this is a showdown between BB and Feysal.

[Shadow1psc]

Quit trying to direct actions. You realize the plan is not only not fool proof, but actually very prone to disruption? Target who you will, Pine, you should be agreeing with me, not trying to argue for why people should be lynching you.

[Shadow1psc]

@Peregrine - I never claimed anything, other than what my night 2 action was, and my result, which was more or less mod confirmed given the unusual nature. Stop rolefishing.

[Shadow1psc]

@Oversoul - I never claimed anything, other than what my night 2 action was, and my result, which was more or less mod confirmed given the unusual nature. Stop rolefishing.

[Shadow1psc]

VOTE: BB

If this is a gambit it's pretty clear we have our scum either way. BB, this is a direct counter claim, regardless of flavor, Feysal claims Wizard.

[Shadow1psc]

Oh lord, is dat sum town Mina posts?

[Shadow1psc]

You're not missing anything.

[Shadow1psc]

Mina, I don't expect you can answer this BUT;

1) Where were you while Lost Butterfly was still in the game?

2) Why the hooplah about Lost Butterfly replacing out if you could have just picked up the slack for it? I thought that was the relative point of hydras.

[Shadow1psc]

My other big thing about Pine is if he were the last Chaotic scum, he took a risk claiming his Peregrine scan so quick didn't he? 50/50 shot at getting it right, I don't see a claim in Peregrine's ISO, granted I only skimmed it. He'd either have to be lawful scum with peregrine, or risking it all in a terrible position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. It could still work out to Pine being scum, I just didn't see him being the last chaotic having claimed chaotic.

[Shadow1psc]

I just figured something out. It pertains to game setup, and I believe Feysal's claim.

[Shadow1psc]

Lynch BB. He's Lawful Evil Cleric.

[Shadow1psc]

I'll explain if Feysal, Mina, and anyone else I believe to be good (and town) players at this point think it's necessary.

[Shadow1psc]

why would you vote then request replacement? Unvote now.

[Shadow1psc]

UNVOTE:

[Shadow1psc]

We (town) have things to discuss. Don't end day yet.

[Shadow1psc]

I never said BB was getting away, I even named his role and alignment. I'm delaying a quick lynch (he was at L-1 because some fool didn't bother to read, that can happen more than once), because I would like Feysal, Mina, and even BB to weigh in. BB is the lynch, and I never said otherwise. Your 3487 was full of hilarity, btw. You can't be that bad.

[Shadow1psc]

Ending day early is never the answer unless there's a mass consensus. There's still plenty of discussion to be had and too much potential information to be gained through regular discussion at this stage.

[Shadow1psc]

@Tammy - Crying face

@AV - We have so many claimed powers, BUT, I'm waiting for Feysal's input on my discovery. I could essentially reveal all, and scum still have to make a choice and hope not to cross-kill, be blocked, hit a protected target, etc. There's a few variables on our side.

[Shadow1psc]

Actually, I'm fairly certain Feysal should claim too. I can't explain why without claiming though.

[Shadow1psc]

Suffice it to say, I believe Lawful scum already know what Feysal's role does.

[Shadow1psc]

I'm actually willing to believe I could blow this whole game open for Lawful Good.

[Shadow1psc]

Screw it, I'm going to claim. Gimme a sec.

[Shadow1psc]

That would make you target #1 for LE, but I'll get to that.

[Shadow1psc]

Alright, let's do this.

I believe we are playing two identical games combined into one, then reversed.

Confusing wording? Yeah. What I mean is, I believe Lawful Good and Lawful evil

have the same powers

. I believe Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil

have the same powers

. Why do I believe this? Well, for that I need to claim.

I claim Chaotic Good Ranger

. Specifically, this means I can track people. I didn't want to give away the fact that I'm a full tracker to keep myself alive, but you can already see what i'm getting at. MoS was Chaotic Evil Ranger. My theory fits the theme, we knew this was experimental, and I believe scum already know this based on flips and claims. I have further evidence to support this -

I tracked Greenknight to Feysal Night 1

. At first I thought Cleric was a doctor, and that this accounted for one kill night 1. I believe now that I am wrong, and that scum knew this as soon as GK soft countered Shadoweh. Why would Shadoweh try to pull a fake claim on something not on a safe list of some sort?

Because BB is the Lawful Evil Cleric and their team thought Shadoweh could take and make it Lawful Good with no counter, and could also claim to be blocked all the time because they know Cleric is a roleblocker

. Confusing, sure.

As you all know, I tracked Pine to Chesskid on Night 2

. This doesn't do much for anyone at this stage, but it will reinforce a later point.

I tracked Mina (Lost Butterfly) nowhere on night 3

. Mina did not move, and as was mod-confirmed, even if she was blocked, I would have gotten a result. I think this is of key importance because

anyone on any scum team would have moved night 3

. With two kills, it would have been ludicrous for the remaining scum power not to have also used their powers. BB role blocked, and the other Lawful made the kill. MoS was a tracker, and CE's got a Bard.

This brings me to my next point.

Pine was never countered

. That means there is no direct Bard counter to Pine. However,

if there is any other Chaotic Good power role, we have Pine cornered.

Pine could have picked off a safe claim list, and it wouldn't have concerned us

until now

. Even if Pine is town and someone wants to counter, it's another 1v1 that isn't in favor of scum. Additionally, once we have BB lynched, there's a LE wizard, and Feysal's claim may help us sort that out.

I believe that's all I have to say, I'll create the tl;dr -

I claim CG Ranger, opposite MoS

GK targeted Feysal. Feysal claims blocked n1. BB claims blocker. BB is scum blocker.

Mina is not scum no matter how my logic works out. She made no move night 3

[Shadow1psc]

Er, should read that MoS is Rogue not Ranger* but yeah, still stands.

[Shadow1psc]

Ranger <-> Rogue
Wizard <-> Sorc
Cleric <-> Druid
Bard <-> Haven't really figured this out, but I believe any CG power claim puts them in a 1v1.

[Shadow1psc]

It's all on page one, and I'm at work so my theory needs a little bit of tweaking. I'm still not sure if we could simply just have two clerics, one good, one evil. That's the only way Shadoweh's claim makes sense, unless there's no safe list and they wanted to call out what they thought could be a doctor.

This is just my PoV, I wanted to get it out there for discussion, and I think my information is more important the sooner it gets out.

[Shadow1psc]

My assumption is only two power roles per faction (essentially making the first half of the game 4 town powers in 20). Beyond that, I wanted to get it out there that I'm pretty sure Mina is conftown at this point unless one of 4 scum no actioned last night (with both commoners for evil being dead). We also know that not all of those can be in the game, or at least it's hinted at. I would be surprised, for example, if we actually had a Paladin. I wouldn't be surprised if Fighter <-> Barbarian and you (Pine) are the evil version, though that falls apart in various ways unless you sent the CE kill last night knowing that I tracked you already, maybe MoS detected alignment as Rogue (any meta on this DnD guys?)

There's certainly plenty of options.

[Shadow1psc]

cleric <-> monk?

[Shadow1psc]

Well, alignment detection is only a factor if Pine is telling the truth, and a lot of my thought process is also based on believing Feysal.

[Shadow1psc]

My theories must have merit!

[Shadow1psc]

This is exactly what I thought might happen - scum trying to end day early.

[Shadow1psc]

Clone High is an AMAZING show.

[Shadow1psc]

It's important to note that Oversoul came in to everyone hating him more or less, and I think I even noted that his early play was very hyper and proactively looking like trying to do work, change the subject off him, and I think once everything derailed with Peregrine's claim, Oversoul kinda slipped out, then back in (also after Feysal's claim?)

[Shadow1psc]

Oversoul's incessant prodding me for information pre-claim and trying to direct actions also rubbed me the wrong way.

[Shadow1psc]

I want to believe that Pine is town, especially now that we've confirmed Feysal's claim more or less.

[Shadow1psc]

BB already claimed scum Junpei.

[Shadow1psc]

The likelihood of a bus by Feysal is remote. Feysal has painted a giant target on himself for the CE team to shoot at. That would be ridiculously bad scumplay

>implying Feysel is not CE

Do you know something I don't?

...really? If Feysal is CE, he can't be bussing

[Shadow1psc]

And Feysal bussing is the only scenario where his claim makes any possible sense as being from a scum standpoint.

[Shadow1psc]

Haze's avatar looks nervous.

Lynch it.

[Shadow1psc]

because this is a two town/two scum game, where a regular game would be balanced as 10/3 town/scum. Admittedly I did not read the signup topic, but this was discussed, no?

[Shadow1psc]

You also have the tag

experimental

[Shadow1psc]

Either way, we can not argue this yet, unless Seacore mentioned it somewhere.