Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[the silent speaker]

Vote: Brian McQueso.

[the silent speaker]

All the people speculating on how the letters correlate to the mafia,

before we have so much as an idea of how many groups there are

are starting with +4 scumdar.

[the silent speaker]

Correction: I have a metal detector for a decoy front door.

What, do you expect the town to have a completely accurate figure regarding how many anti-town groups there are before we begin any discussion or speculation?

Of course not, but this isn't real speculation. It's a plausible-looking imitation of speculation. Fake speculation done once can be a joke. Done frequently it suggests someone has an interest in replacing the real goods with forgery.

[the silent speaker]

I'm guessing that's american

*goes to corner to ponder on this*

What does this mean?

[the silent speaker]

Yes, MOS, I got that far on my own, but what about it needs pondering? It's a TV show. Who cares whether it's American or Uzbekistani?

[the silent speaker]

We need a raised-eyebrow smiley -- I can think of at least three answers for BlackBerry's question offhand -- but I'll keep my peace becaue that's for BJ to answer.

Unvote

because I agree with BMQ's post in full. Bogre has made a number of comments that I can see being taken as scummy -- "when I die, X will look really bad" type things -- but he's vibed consistently to me as scummy-looking-from-newbishness, rather than scum-making-newbie-mistakes.

I'm here.

Prove it.

[the silent speaker]

My bad for not clarifying. I agree with your post about not being sure Bogre was scum, and then I was giving a quick-and-dirty summary of the wagon for Blackberry, with my take.

[the silent speaker]

I'm not feeling the Bogre lynch, as I said. I think the case against SpamWise is a little weak. (It's based mainly on his "holy crap I think this lynch is a bad bad idea" post, isn't it? Because that post doesn't really feel all that scummy to me, particularly as he retracted it, although I can certainly see where other people might find it so.) So I'm disinclined to join either major wagon, and as such have little to say. After we know Bogre's or SpamWise's alignment, then we can start digging into who supported scum or accused town or vice versa scummily, but with roles and alignments split, playing Let's Pretend before we have mod-ratified information isn't likely to profit: Bogre could be telling the absolute truth and still be scum.

[the silent speaker]

I have a better question. What does it mean that Jack Gallagher's office was reopened?

[the silent speaker]

The point is, what's the significance of the reopening?

[the silent speaker]

I'm tempted by the suspicious Lordy postings, but

damn

this wagon grew fast.

[the silent speaker]

Spectrumvoid, I was about to vote Col. Kurtz for saying Lordy claimed, then went back and saw the "messed up the offices" line. The first time around I thought Lordy meant what he said he meant, so it didn't click, but in retrospect I could see the claim interpretation. What I'm kind of circling around here is that thinking Lordy said he claimed isn't scummy by itself, since there were legitimate grounds to think he had. Though I agree the Lordy bandwagon bears looking at closely.

In re-retrospect, though, Col. Kurtz voted Lordy

for claiming a pro-town role.

Vote: Colonel Kurtz

.

[the silent speaker]

Look again, Colonel. He claimed the role (or you thought he did, and since this is all about what you thought, it comes to the same thing for purposes of this post) of office rearranger, pro-town. You voted him because "it was really stupid and arrogant of you to say that you rearranged the offices. You saying that screams scum to me because if doing that really messes with roles, then it occurs to me that only a scum member would want people to not be able to act on suspicions. If I were a mafia role-rearranger ... I would claim that I did it, but that I was pro-town because it's very difficult to get a flavor read out of just that ability."
1. In calling it stupid and arrogant, you imply that it was bad pro-town play. Implicitly, you're accepting that his claim, if true, is pro-town; yet you go on to say that the claim is true and anti-town. This looks like you're trying to get the role lynched.
2. "If I were a mafia role-rearranger ... I would claim that I did it, but that I was pro-town." Then you don't consider it a stupid and arrogant move at all; it's what you would do!
3. "

t's very difficult to get a flavor read out of just that ability." But above you said only scum could have that ability; that was the centerpiece of your argument against Lordy. You seem to have gotten a flavor read out of just the ability with remarkable ease if that's the case.

[the silent speaker]

I'm confused, I thought he claimed role swapper. OR did he claim his role was swapped. Or did anyone claim role swappers?????

I'm so confused......

No. He said something which people

mistook

for a roleswapper claim, but he never claimed anything intentionally.

[the silent speaker]

Note for later: post 405. Who it indicates as guilty and who as innocent, however, remains to be seen. Basically I can interpret Cesspit as not, in fact, saying that the Lordy bandwagon was based on the claim he didn't make; but that doesn't mean he

did

intend the charitable interpretation. I think I'd like him to clarify his statement.

[the silent speaker]

Unvote: Colonel Kurtz, vote: Bluemonick

And MrBuddyLee's last-ditch effort to keep him alive is noted.

[the silent speaker]

Spamwise: were you kidding or for real about the surfboards?

Leading question much?

FOS: Spectrumvoid and SpamWise.[/quote]

I will poke around the bandwagon and see what can be found when I have my laptop settled into my new law school. (This is why I didn't post since last week. I'm home for the weekend.)

[the silent speaker]

Okay, here's what we got from yeserday's bandwagons.

It may be worth noting that Bogre's hammah was volunteered for by both Colonel Kurtz and Spectrumvoid.

Day begins with the following spamoff.
SpamWise (appropriately named): I miss my old office. There were guitars and surfboards and stuff.

This got a lot of focus later, and it will be worth seeing by whom. Interestingly enough, the rest of the spamoff did

not

.

Spectrumvoid: Btw, what are the offices for?

Dude, did you not read your role PM? I consider playing stupid a significant scumtell.

Fritzler: can i have an office?

You have one!

Masterchief: Wait... You can have offices? I want one!

Ditto.

Fritzler: i have dibs on the next office

Meaningless spam.

Masterchief: Damn you...

Ditto.

Max: I dibs an office
WHAT DO THEY DO ANYWAY
IF YOU HAVE TO WORK IN THEM I WANT MINE BLOWN UP

Do you even know what game you're playing in, Max? This has like three scumtells! I didn't know you could *get* that much scumminess into spam!

Masterchief random votes SpamWise. Random votes on Day 2 are often the work of scum, since town is usually looking to the happenings of Day 1 to decide who to

non

randomly vote for. Also the fact that this random vote is for a major suspect of yesterday is rather too coincidental for my taste.

Lordy made the first puzzling post, announcing that ibaesha is a townie. Yosarian began the poking of holes into him, but did not vote; ibby cast the first of those, timestamped 10:23 PM 7/28.
Yosarian made another post, adding little if anything to his post of a few hours before, but including this line:

I'm thinking that lordy's just pulling BS out of thin air at this point.

Still no vote though.
SpamWise casts vote #2. Timestamp: 4:48 7/29, six-plus hours after ibby. (That is not by itself suspicious timeframe; it's added just for the record.)
Lordy made his now-infamous "Actually, no I messed up the offices" post. He voted ibby and FOSed SpamWise for no very coherent reason.
Spectrumvoid thus:

Yup, I do know what's in my office. But I couldn't figure out how changing offices would affect the game. Thanks for the ideas.

The

most

charitable take I can think of for this -- especially that last line! -- is "thanks for helping me coast by without doing any thinking of my own."

Not

what I call a very towny reaction. And the first line does not mesh well at all with his part in the spamoff.
Yos:

Um, you do understand why it's suspicious that you tried to out a vanillia townie, no matter if your reasoning was correct or not, right?

Three posts, now two of them explicitly calling Lordy scummy, and still no vote.
MOS casts vote #3. Timestamp: 11:25 AM 7/29.
Colonel Kurtz casts vote #4, timestamp 11:59 AM 7/29, in a post with some very snarled reasoning I've already called him down for.
Bluemonick, known scum, casts vote #5. Timestamp: 12:36 PM 7/29.
Only now does Yosarian vote, #6, timestamp 5:00 PM 7/29, citing the reasons he made in previous posts. Why then didn't you vote in those posts, YOsarian? You had ample opportunity to do so.
At this point I voiced my objection to the speed of the bandwagon, which as it turned out was not quite done speeding.
BabyJesus adds vote #7. Timestamp: 8:58 PM 7/29.
Pooky adds vote #8. Timestamp: 10:36 PM 7/29.

At this point I pause to take stock. The bandwagon grew from nothing to eight votes (out of 12) in exactly twenty-four hours. The last two votes are dismissable for now, as both BJ and Pooky are notorious bandwagoners especially early on, but the period of fastest growth -- three votes in 1:11, six votes in twelve hours and pocket change -- includes the only person known to be scum. And of course, the object of the wagoning is now known to be pro-town; overfast wagon+townie victim=hmmm. On the basis of this so far Yosarian comes off probably the worst, followed closely by Colonel Kurtz; there are a couple of reasons to be suspicious of Spectrumvoid, Masterchief and Max, but the Lordy wagon isn't one of them.

Moving on. Colonel Kurtz felt the need to defend his Lordy vote -- who he thought was attacking him for it, I have no idea -- and Fritzler added the ninth and last vote Lordy would get. Then I attacked the Colonel for voting

because

Lordy claimed a pro-town role Kurtz professed to believe he had. (Yes, technically Lordy never claimed, but that, as I have said before, is irrelevant as Col. Kurtz believed he did and was acting on that belief; and technically Lordy never said "my role is pro-town" but that is an implicit part of any roleclaim.) Harry Potter followed my vote. Kurtz Kount: two.

Quoth SpamWise:

I can vouch that the office of Jack Johnson is pro-town, otherwise my vote would be somewhere else.

I'm not crazy about this unsolicited voucher.

While SpamWise, Yos and ibaesha kept some heat on Lordy -- legitimately so; Lordy had some suspicious behavour to defend for all he was town and likely town being railroaded by scum -- Masterchief said, "Good enough for me." and voted Col. Kurtz. Mystery meat voted me for my Kurtzvote and Kurtz followed soon after, in his case with a diatribe aimed at his entire wagon in which he basically assumed that anyone who would dare vote him is ither stupid or scum or both. He added:

I'm not even going to bother with the lordy wagon at the moment because the three people voting for me bug me more.

Not going to bother? He was

on

the Lordy wagon.
Kurtz Kount: 3. TSS Tally: 2.

I responded to Kurtz's rant, and he responded to my counterattack. In hi response the following two statements were made.

I would assume that I could claim without fear of repercussions.

[M]y problem was how he said it so openly that he did that.

Almost all of his response suggests that he completely misunderstood what I was trying to say, so I'll grant the posibility that he just didn't get it. But this still looks like a contradiction to me, whether he did get it or didn't.

Armlx, posting for the first time all day, voted Col. K because of vibe and because "Lordy's role makes sense." MOS voted armlx on the merited charge that "the confused play" was unbuyable. I find it questionable myself. But then MOS added this:

Even if he did mistakenly think Lordy had claimed, there has also been a lot of discussion that casts reasonable doubt upon the alignment of such a claim.

In fact, there hasn't really. There has been Colonel Kurtz's bald assertion and that's about it. Admitedly, since roles and alignments are independent he could have the claimed role and be concurrently anti-town, but no one but the Colonel has sugested that there is or of right ought to be an anti-townness inherent in the role.
SpamWise declined to vote for Col. K. Kurtz Kount: four. It would eventually peak at five with a Fritzler vote. This is about when the bluemonick wagon got underway, and the same apears to be true for my computer headache, so that will be part II.

Taking stock of the Kurtzwagon, there seem to be some questionable jumps onto it but little visible collusion. Harry pinned his vote entirely on mine, but that's not itself scummy; Masterchief is worth keeping tabs on for other reasons, but I'm wary of reasoning in a circle with this; armlx made a scummy voting post but the attack on him was not free from question itself.

[the silent speaker]

(edit:

five

votes in twelve hours and pocket change.)

[the silent speaker]

Okay. Part II.

We begin with BMQ's post voting Yosarian for voting both Bogre and Lordy and assorted intangibles. He later explained this as fishing for scummy-looking agreements, which bluemonick provided. Fuldu promptly cast Bluemonick Vote #1.

Yosarian defended himself, townishly IMO, against BMQ's arguments.

Ibaesha cast vote #2, citing Fuldu's logic.

Of the few wagons we've had today the Lordy one has been the best.

Pooky, seeing this as a defense of bluemonick, voted the latter (#3) and pseudo-FOSed SpamWise. In fairness, I don't necessarily read this as the bluemonick wagon being even on SpamWise's radar yet; it

was

still pretty new.

Back with a beter post tomorrow when I get back in town.

ps. I'm not scum

I cite this because WTF?

Spectrumvoid cast vote #4 and disagreed with the lordy bandwagon because "what has he done to seem scummy?" There are and were good reasons to disagree with the lordy wagon, but that's not one of them.
Fritzler jumped bandwagons yet again with vote #5 for bluemonick.
BMQ cast vote #6, explaining he had used deliberately weak argumentation to shake things up.
Colonel Kurtz tried to vote bluemonick but messed up his tags; call it vote #6.5.
TheCesspit cast vote #7. He indicated suspicion of BMQ that he could have tried an attack, had it found weak, and covered it up as baiting, but added that bluemonick was suspicious for what he did regardless.
Masterchief provided vote #8:

I don't think this bandwagon is going to do much, but whatever.
Unvote Vote:bluemonick

A scummy, scummy post. First of all, what don't you think it will do? Pressure a claim? Find scum? Reach lynch size in the teeth of the mafia's efforts against? Secondly, "but whatever"? Que?

Yosarian immediately called him on this, but in the same double post added:

Anyway, I do think that bluemonick's post was very suspicious, and I'm considering voting him, but I'm not going to join it just yet as it's moving quite fast,

Hum. This wasn't so much a consideration with the lordy bandwagon.

Masterchief answered him that "I joined becasue if i didn't, it would look like i would be protecting him." *eyebrow* Oh-kay.

Meanwhile armlx declined to vote for bluemonick because Colonel Kurtz's attempted vote (no reasoning given) "just makes a stronger case for him."

Mystery meat voted Masterchief and Yosarian FOSed him for the above. Yos added:

We should still keep focus on bluemonick until he shows back up and at least tries to defend himself.

Yosarian, you'll note, is not in fact voting bluemonick

or

Masterchief as of this post. He is still voting Lordy.

Skimmy McSkim, Masterchief digs himself in deeper, then bluemonick makes a post accusing ibaesha of working with Yos. He had a whole interchange with ibby, prompting SpamWise:

He's sort of floundering, but not like a scum does, more like a newbie.

Clear defense of bluemonick here, or at least opposition to his lynch.

MrBuddyLee voted Harry Potter for no clear reason.

Spectrumvoid questioned bluemonick some more and bluemonick gave up.

Col. Kurtz cast vote #9 because of annoyance at bluemonick's surrender.

SpamWise voted Kurtz for citing this while admitting that he screwed up the tags before bluemonick quit.

There

is the collusion I was looking for in Part I. Sequence:
1. Masterchief random votes SpamWise.
2. Masterchief votes Kurtz.
3. SpamWise declines outright to vote Kurtz.
4. Masterchief unvotes Kurtz.
5. SpamWise votes Kurtz!
5a. He does this while a bandwagon is raging that will eventually kill scum,

not

when there was an actual Kurtz bandwagon.

Max demanded a claim, bluemonick confessed, and BabyJ (#10) and Max (#11) voted him.

Even though nothing much had been done

but

the bluemonick wagon in about three pages, and that had pretty clearly gotten as much usefulness out of it as it was going to get, MrBuddyLee made a last push to "get more information" while it was still day. This struck me as a last-ditch left-handed effort to find some alternative route than killing bluemonick, and I said so as I dropped the hammah.

Yosarian, it will be noted, never did vote bluemonick.

Assessment: There is quite a strong probability that both Masterchief and SpamWise are scum. Since SpamWise was just replaced,

vote: Masterchief, FOS: Mathcam.

There is a somewhat lesser probability that Yosarian is scum, but still more than enough to warrant a

FOS: Yosarian

. MrBuddyLee gets an IGMEOY; I think if bluemonick had anybody specific in mind with his "nabbed by my own scum buddy" it's most likely ibaesha, but I think he was most likely aiming to sow confusion. (This does not make the people on the bandwagon any more likely

town

, but bluemonick's comment can safely be ignored IMO.) Spectrumvoid has a few more scummish points against him, as does armlx, but they can be worried about later. Colonel Kurtz is probably less likely to be scum, but that could change in a hurry if I'm wrong about Masterchief and

SpamWise

mathcam.

[the silent speaker]

And now Masterchief gets replaced too. Son of an ancestor.

[the silent speaker]

My play so far this game has been ... not jumping on the blue bandwagon right away without trying to queston him farther first.

The thing is, with the Lordy bandwagon, you only

looked

like you were doing that, you weren't actually doing it. You made a couple of posts calling him scummy without voting, then a few people voted

but Lordy hadn't responded yet

, and then you dropped the vote on. Nor did the speed of the bandwagon trouble you when you did. So what changed?

You were also on the bluemonick wagon, jumping on there to make yourself look less scummy when he came up protown.

Whaa...?

[the silent speaker]

The major scum tell Lordy did, which was to suddenly declare someone to be a vanillia townie under odd circumstances, was something I was having more trouble picturing a good guy doing. So, while questioning blue and trying to find out more about him, I keep my vote on Lordy until I got a better idea of exactally where blue stood.

Still, you voted Lordy not when you noted the tell and not when his reponse made a vote on those grounds warranted, but in between. I'm questioning your role in the Lordy bandwagon here, not the bluemonick one; mathcam's thoughts on the interaction between you there are much in accord with mine, although I don't rule out crude distancing attempts just because we can safely rule out sophisticated ones.

Heh...should clearly have been "to make yourself look less scummy when he came up scum".

I reasoned that far on my own , but even corrected, MOS's logic doesn't make much sense. It's heads I win, tails you lose. I'm trying to decide whether that plus the slip is Freudian and means he expects armlx to be pro-town, Freudian and means he and bluemonick are allies, Freudian and means that they aren't allies, or not Freudian at all, just MOS being his usual self.

[the silent speaker]

Bah. Go death.

[the silent speaker]

This was a rare game in which I thought I might get a tactical edge from not killing night 1 as a SK, I figured there might be items that could come to me, items perhaps which to not use would get me lynched, and I didn't want the absence of a nightkill to incriminate me beyond repair. As it is I think there were no items -- only alignments that follow the player and roles that follow the office, amirité?

Anyway, good game. I think. It's been months since I played it...