Toy Story Mafia (Day 9)

[petroleumjelly]

Howdy, all! I'm replacing DonJosh.

I will try to finish reading the game sometime tomorrow and post my thoughts by tomorrow, or Thursday at the latest.

[petroleumjelly]

I’m still in the process of reading, but I am at page 15 and I

already

know who I want to vote, as well as who I want to vote after that player dies. Looking over the pages since I’ve replaced in, I am

quite

happy to see the Umbrage wagon, because that is exactly where my vote is going.

Vote: Umbrage

FoS: Beefster

As of page 15, I already have three reasons for voting Umbrage. I will be interested to see exactly what happened with Umbrage from then up until now, because unless Umbrage is seriously wagoned in the interim, I find it interesting that it took me replacing in before the votes started crumbling off of DonJosh (that guy I replaced) and onto a

good

target.

1.)

Umbrage speculated about two scum groups in Post 287. I find these comments generally come from scum. Seriously, Umbrage should have been wagoned immediately after this post.

2.)

I did not like her comment to Ray Montano in Post 328, about how Hiraki volunteering himself is not really “lining up lynches.” Hard to explain, but it feels off. I have a hard time seeing a Townsperson writing it. This is a minor point.

3.)

But

most

of all (at least for me -- and yes, this is even considering her two scum teams speculation), I absolutely

do not

buy her attack on k e n d a l l. And this the post that sours me the most is Post 350.

Umbrage outright accuses k e n d a l l of “pretending to be eager” while “really just OMGUSing.” I honestly do not think Umbrage believes what she is typing. This entire post feels like she is saying what Umbrage feels forced to say because of the position she has put herself in so she can keep her vote on k e n d a l l. This post is just ringing "BULL" to my ears. To top it off, Umbrage then immediately gets caught forgetting her scumread on bobsnox. This lady is scum.

~

Also, Beefster is totally scum. His “worry” about being caught on page 1 is only a very minor point against him, but what convinces me he is scum is Post 322. Seriously, everybody needs to go back and read this post.

->

a.)

First, Beefster claims to be giving out scum points, and yet it really seems to me that Beefster has contrived his “catch-up” solely so he can vote for k e n d a l l, who is (surprise surprise) the leading wagon at the time (and for bad reasons).

Literally

, k e n d a l l is the

only

player he gives “scum points” to

at all

. I don’t believe a Townsperson would write that post for a second.

->

b.)

Second, Beefster gives k e n d a l l “newbtown points” for things he simultaneously gives her “scum points” for the exact same thing. WHAT? If something makes a player newbtown, you cannot then turn around and give them scumpoints. The whole point about “newbtown” mistakes are that they are things likely done by newer players who are town, and therefore are not deserving of scumpoints.

->

c.)

This is a really minor point, but Beefster apparently decided to stop reading the thread despite being only three pages from finishing. Given that he made two short posts directly before his longer post I’m linking to, I don’t see why he wouldn’t have read the game first, and

then

decided to make a longer post. [By the way, I totally get to do this because I still have like 30 pages to read, and there’s no way it’s gonna happen tonight unless I go into Insomniac Mode.]

~

I also have like

seven

Town reads so far. Won’t be sharing those, though.

P-Edit: Apparently Umbrage is male. Retroactively change "she" stuff to "he" stuff.

[petroleumjelly]

To whoever asked, I am fairly active. I try to average at least one post a day. I guess insomnia hit me, because I ended up reading the entire game. I didn't feel like I could put it down once I hit about page 25 or so.

1.)

Blah, wish I had forced myself to finish reading before posting. I’m going to

temporarily retract my FoS on Beefster

, as there have actually been a good deal of posts that I’ve liked from him since page 15. This isn't to say I agree with what he's been saying, but he is feeling Townish.

Still, I

very much

want to see an explanation for Post 322. Why did all of your scumpoints go to kendall? Why did you simultaneously give her “newbtown” points along with “scumpoints”?

2.)

But Umbrage is still scum. Add glowball’s Post 648 for reasons to lynch Umbrage. I guess it slipped by me on my read, but I agree Umbrage looks like she was genuinely trying to deflect there.

Also, Umbrage’s posts since page 15 have pretty much all been set into “snipe” mode. Umbrage does not actually look like she is

scumhunting

at all; she just pops in to make fun of the wagon on her, as if acting confident with no reason to be confident will get the wagon off of her. She technically starts to look more opinionated in the later pages of the game, but I think it was after somebody pointed out that Umbrage wasn't really doing anything proactive.

3.)

Most likely scum who joined the DonJosh wagon are Bogre and mikehart. I am really not digging either of their votes. I can kinda understand the votes on DonJosh

to a point

- he was rather clearly unable to keep up with the game given its pace. But these two votes in particular do not look sincere.

Note: I will have to look at the kendall wagon again later, but I remember actually thinking the main pushers on kendall (save for Umbrage) actually looked fairly Town. Too tired to look into it right now, though.

4.)

That said, I am quite surprised DonJosh got

so

close to a lynch in the middle of the game (I am not talking about the Rainbowdash push here). Given the wagon on me upon replacing in, I was truly expecting I had replaced into a real fixer-upper of a spot. But now that I’ve read the game, I can’t say I agree with the enormity of the wagon on him.

I can understand why somebody might want to pressure-vote DonJosh. But it is quite clear to me that DonJosh simply did not make time for this game. This isn't an attitude I condone, but it certainly is not scummy. I think he honestly tried to catch up (given his reads he posted before being replaced), but he clearly was not up to the task. He was an easy wagon who was pretty much guaranteed to not defend himself because he couldn't keep up with the pace of the game. As a result, I am not surprised at how quickly his wagon has fallen apart once a competent player (me) replaces him.

So.

To everybody who voted DonJosh, I would like you to post your case against him.

As an added bonus, if you had a question for DonJosh that you would like to ask him, I will answer it myself. Because frankly, I am quite confident I can defend absolutely everything DonJosh has done. The wagon on DonJosh was almost as dumb as the kendall wagon. I can understand why there was pressure to begin with on those players, but I fail to understand why either wagon grew as large as they ended up growing. The wagon on kendall was an antagonistic wagon on a player who did not conform to mafiascum expectations, while the wagon on DonJosh was a lazy wagon on a lazy player.

Also, just to be clear: this request is

not

directed to the votes on DonJosh after Rainbowdash decreed a DonJosh lynch. I want reasons for the DonJosh votes that came in the middle of the game.

~

Unvote: Umbrage

to prevent quicklynchage.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: Umbrage

1.)

Counterclaim of Watcher seals the deal. I doubt we would have two Watchers in this game (I believe chkflip mentioned an

offsite

game, which does not strike me as relevant on mafiascum), unless one of them is a scum Watcher. In which case, an Umbrage vote is still good.

2.)

However, I don't want quicklynchage to happen either, yet I want to vote Umbra because he's been defending DonJosh and DonJosh has been defending Umbra but now Petro was willing to vote for Umbra and I think he'd be willing to again.

Hey SodaSpirit17, DonJosh never defended Umbrage. Are you mixing DonJosh up with somebody else? Are you trying to connect me with Umbrage before we even know Umbrage's alignment? Please explain the

purpose

of you even typing up this statement. Why did you type it and press submit?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Seriously, everybody please quit with the pissing contest. I’m already tired of reading it, and from the looks of it, it’s only just started. If you want people to follow you, just post your reasons instead of trying to make yourself look awesome.

2.)

I’ll need to think about glowball. I had a Town read on her through Day One, and so when she counter-claimed Umbrage and Umbrage flipped scum, I actually figured the scum didn’t have fake-claims. I had even planned on suggesting the possibility of a mass name-claim in the hopes scum don’t have fake-claims, but given glowball’s retraction, I no longer think it is appropriate.

diddin and SpyreX, where are you getting the assumption that scum have fake-claims?

3.)

I have to admit, I don’t understand Rainbow Dash’s “townslip” reasoning either. If the time for the “slip” to be significant has already passed (which is the feeling I am getting here), then you might as well claim it before deciding who did and who didn’t “slip.”

4.)

Not voting until I reread the game. I actually find both of these flips to be rather informative, since I had a mild suspicion on both of our dead players.

[petroleumjelly]

Flavour Analysis, if you are trying to breadcrumb Slinky Dog (by your constant alternating use of capitalizing S, D, S, D), claim it

now

. In your next post.

[petroleumjelly]

Now the real question is:

Is PJ slinky dog?

Because if the answer to that is NO (it will be) just do us a favor and make him become dead vig tia.

Why yes, I am Slinky Dog, thanks for asking. I'm still not convinced scum have fake-claims to begin with (as far as I'm concerned, glowball could be lying about claiming she was lying), so when I saw Flavour Analysis possibly crumbing

my

role, I wasn't about to just sit there.

[petroleumjelly]

Hey, TheJakalope, any thoughts on anything else?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Petroleum Jelly: You think Glowball is lying about lying? Then what need would there be for Four's soft counter? And I do not think she'd openly lie about another claim then.

I don’t understand the question. Fourseen countered Watcher

before

glowball countered Bo Peep, so whether or not glowball was lying has nothing to do with whether we "needed" FourseenCircumstance’s soft counter.

My point is that I still consider it entirely possible that glowball is in fact Bo Peep who feels she might as well retract her claim for the moment. I don’t care

how

confident a player is that somebody is scum – Townspeople just

don’t

lie about their role-name. It's stupid and risky. If glowball is Town and

not

Bo Peep, then I will probably unofficially blacklist playing with her, because I

hate

playing with people who lie as Town. And so because I actually had a mild Town read on her from Day One, my assumption for now is that she is not a complete idiot, and that she is in fact Bo Peep.

Also, is there a particular reason why you used the eye-rolling emoticon? Trying to make me look ridiculous? Like I don't know what I'm talking about?

2.)

I’m gonna jump in here and defend NanooktheWolf from these “lurking” accusations (and yes, in part because I feel this pretty much happened to DonJosh on Day One). This game is

fast

and there are a

lot

of pages for this game only just starting Day Two. Now check Nanook’s posts; he has actually posted (and posted content) almost every real-time day at least once, save for the time period of August 1 – August 5, for which he apologized and explained that “real life was setting in.”

Y’all need to get your definition of lurking straight. Players who can’t consistently keep up this ridiculous pace are not necessarily “lurking,” and from the looks of his posts, Nanook most certainly is not.

3.)

Flavour Analysis, why are you directing Cops to investigate glowball?

4.)

It’s already been said by both SpyreX and Rainbowdash, but apparently it needs repeating: the “two Vigs” comment was clearly not

actually

postulating two Vigilantes. The point of the comment was very obviously that the two deaths overnight are strange nightkill choices, because neither player who was nightkilled looked very Town. In other words, the two dead players seem more like Vigilante nightkills than scum nightkills.

[petroleumjelly]

God, this game.

1.)

FlavourAnalysis, since you’ve claimed, would you mind explaining your use of capital letters in the middle of words? Now that I’m looking over your posts, you only seem to have this problem when you type the word “Day” (in ToDay, YeSterDay, etc.) Is this something you do in other games, too, or is it only confined to this game?

Also, now that I’m reading over your posts more closely, why did you start the game munching on donuts? That sounds far more suggest of a Cop crumb than it does a Vigilante crumb. Were you eating donuts in real life? Why did you make that post?

In fact, please link me to other games you have played, and more specifically, games you have breadcrumbed in. Do you breadcrumb often? Did you breadcrumb being Woody (or a Vigilante) at all?

2.)

@PJ: Please tell me what post you found from Nanook that was well thought out and looking at suspects because right now I'm not seeing reasoning that makes sense except Kendall.

I don’t recall saying Nanook’s posts were “well thought out and looking at suspects;” I said he was clearly not lurking, and that he’s been posting content.

But sure, even looking at Nanook’s posts right now, it’s pretty clear he has been looking at suspects, asking questions, and giving opinions. Just isolate him and this is pretty obvious to me. I’m not here to defend Nanook because I think he is Town – I really don’t have much of a read on him at all, in fact. But the case on him for “lurking” was so bad I felt I had to say something.

3.)

Concerning the Lenny the Binoculars claim, at first blush I’m leaning towards FourseenCircumstances being scum, if only because it seems unlikely DeathNote-scum would just decide to counterclaim out of the blue like this. But I will definitely need to sleep on it.

[petroleumjelly]

4.)

And

wow

, I somehow missed glowball claiming Buster (Andy's dog), even though I definitely read his post where he claimed to have lied. I honestly have zero clue how I missed that. God, this game is so dumb. I don't even.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay.

1.)

Despite FourseenCircumstance’s retraction of his Watcher claim, I do not believe it. I think he is indeed a Watcher – in part because he countered Umbrage on Day One, and in part because he has claimed an apparently accurate result of watching SodaSpirit17 and seeing FlavourAnalysis target him.

Right now, I am seriously wondering if the reason Umbrage claimed Watcher was in the hopes he could use a partner’s (such as FourseenCircumstance’s) results to confirm himself. This is easily done by having the partner with information simply code their results into their first post each game day. Because

seriously

– Watcher is just about the

most difficult

role to fake-claim accurately as scum. So if Umbrage was really trying to save himself – which right now I think he was, especially given that he was a Godfather – he wouldn’t have claimed Watcher without having the ability to back up his own fake-claim.

Still, what worries me is the fact that FourseenCircumstance counterclaimed Umbrage in the first place. But

if

there are two scum teams, then farside22’s post (linking to Mirror Mafia, where there were two different scum teams, each with a Tracker

and

a Watcher) could actually be what we’re dealing with. Scott Brosius was certainly generous with giving scum power roles in Simpsons Mafia.

I think the most damning thing is very clearly his Lenny the Binoculars claim, and retraction upon being countered. I believe that FourseenCircumstance is indeed the Cymbal-Crashing Monkey. (I haven’t actually seen Toy Story 3, but I looked it up after his claim, and the flavor fits

perfectly

with being a Watcher, as the Monkey apparently watched video cameras to catch toys trying to escape). And from everything I have read, the Monkey is probably scum, especially since Stinky Pete was scum.

Still, I am not going to vote right now because (i) I have not yet reread the game, and (ii) we don’t yet know if we’re going to get a prize today. On that note:

2.)

MOD

: On Day One, you gave out the prize when activity levels had dropped. But I think you should give out a prize when activity levels are high – to do otherwise promotes stagnation and dropped activity levels, just so we can get a prize. I’m pretty sure this is not the effect you are intending, but it will likely be result you end up with if you do not change the conditions for giving out a prize.

3.)

FourseenCircumstance, you just claimed that the “whole scumteam” was on your wagon, but earlier today your biggest three suspects were me, FlavourAnalysis, and Ray Montano. Of those three, only FlavourAnalysis is on your wagon. So who on your wagon is scum?

4.)

I frankly don’t know what to think about FlavourAnalysis. His explanation that he decided to leave a “fake breadcrumb” is sounding like a bunch of bullshit (and it is pretty much the only way scum could possibly get out of being caught breadcrumbing a role they did not ultimately claim). However, his claim of Woody is strong enough that I can’t see myself voting for him in the absence of a counterclaim. Right now I am seriously questioning if scum have fake claims at all. (But I will admit this would be strange, since Scott Brosius

did

give out fakeclaims in Simpsons Mafia, the last large themed game he ran).

Finally,

5.)

People need to stop directing Cops.

Feel free to direct Vigs, but directing Cops is just bad. This is a lesson I give to

newbies

in

newbie games

, and not one I should have to explain to supposed veterans in a large themed game.

It is completely random. The times/days for it have already been picked. I don't do it on a whim or when I feel activity is falling (it was just needless flavor the first time)

If a day ends before a game is supposed to be played, it will be rescheduled.

[petroleumjelly]

4.) I frankly don’t know what to think about FlavourAnalysis. His explanation that he decided to leave a “fake breadcrumb” is sounding like a bunch of bullshit (and it is pretty much the only way scum could possibly get out of being caught breadcrumbing a role they did not ultimately claim). However, his claim of Woody is strong enough that I can’t see myself voting for him in the absence of a counterclaim. Right now I am seriously questioning if scum have fake claims at all. (But I will admit this would be strange, since Scott Brosius did give out fakeclaims in Simpsons Mafia, the last large themed game he ran).

Been thinking about this some more. Even though it is completely idiotic, I guess I have to lean towards FlavourAnalysis purposefully making a "fake breadcrumb" given he claimed to have talked to chkflip about it before the game started. But God, that is just

so stupid

.

~

Which leads me to something that quite clearly needs to be said by somebody:

The amount of claimed lying in this game (glowball apparently lying about her Bo Peep claim, FlavourAnalysis leaving "fake" breadcrumbs, FourseenCircumstances retracting both his Watcher claim and two rolenames) has seriously

got

to stop. This is just

dumb

. I am having a hard time trying to navigate through this junk. And yes, it is junk.

Lying is supposed to lead

directly

to scum. No questions asked. That's the whole point of catching somebody in a lie; it's pretty much the whole point of playing mafia to begin with. If any of you

seriously

has the mentality that it's "okay" to lie as Town if you are bored, don't like your role, or think you are in the right, etc., I am asking you as a person behind the player to rethink that policy, because it is very obviously bad.

And by the way, glowball, kindly

shut up

about calling players a "liability." You were the very first person to claim you lied about your own role, so you really have zero standing to call other players a "liability" for how they claim to play their own roles.

/end rant

[petroleumjelly]

Hey guys who should I shoot with my lasers tonight?

WHY.

WHY.

I cannot remember the last time I've been so angry at a game. Why would you claim this? I want to just crumple this whole game into a tiny ball and throw it into a trashcan.

[petroleumjelly]

Hey guys who should I shoot with my lasers tonight?

Okay. Assuming you are claiming to be a second Vigilante here, and assuming we lynch FourseenCircumstance today, I would go with any of the following players:

1.)

chkflip

2.)

jmurph3

3.)

mikehart

4.)

Silver1337

5.)

TheJakalope

I couldn't really care less which of these you kill, because I don't have a hint of a read on any of them, and I'm kinda doubting I will get a read on any of them in the near future, either. In the end, though, you

should not

claim who you are going to kill (since that just lets scum plan around it).

[petroleumjelly]

Hey glowball, I've apparently decided to waste some of my time reading your wiki page. In it, you say:

You will probably play a game with me in which you think I am scum and town at the same time. Why? Because: "Scum would never be that obvious" and "Town would never be that ridiculous". My outlook on this game, is to break down what you expect me to do- and do what I feel is best.

I will never intentionally mislead my team

, or try to lose to uphold Meta, but I will probably unintentionally confuse you as town or as scum.

Would you mind harmonizing that statement with the fact that you are claiming to have lied when you counterclaimed as Bo Peep?

[petroleumjelly]

Also, have you lied in any of your other finishes games?

[petroleumjelly]

Whelp, answered my own question while skimming your games for the word "lie" with this post (where glowball claimed to lied as Town in an open game). Sigh.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, good for you. I'm happy for you that lying paid off in that single game. You are nevertheless blacklisted until that attitude changes.

[petroleumjelly]

Quick post before leaving (I will be on V/LA on until Monday).

1.)

bobsnox, did you "laser" glowball last night?

2.)

I don't like the Nanook wagon. Yesterday I was only defending him from "lurking" without more, but now I do think he's Town. And to farside22 (who asked me to explain why Nanook was Town yesterday, albeit in different words), I cannot really point you to a specific post that makes me think this. It is more of an overall impression feeling, combined with the fact that I got a slimy feeling from the wagon that started on him yesterday. He feels honest to me.

3.)

I'm gonna fully retract my theory that scum do not have fake-claims. I am now going back to the default assumption that they do.

4.)

mikehart, what are your thoughts on jmurph3?

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: bobsnox

1.)

bobsnox, who did you “laser” Night One? (Also, please don’t forget my question about whether you “lasered” glowball on Night Two).

2.)

I hate the role Rainbowdash has claimed (i.e., it’s design), but Rainbowdash is pretty obviously being truthful about the general gist.

3.)

And thus, based on Rainbowdash's claim (which boils down to "Vigilante-with-three-lives"), I am highly persuaded into thinking bobsnox is scum.

[petroleumjelly]

FlavourAnalysis and diddin:

I don't think I'm being dense when I ask: why don't you believe Rainbowdash's ability claim?

The only way it could be

fake

is if she is scum with NanooktheWolf, and has apparently decided to go from attacking Nanook on Day Two to making a crazy gambit on Day Three to defend Nanook while

also

taking responsibility for the Bogre kill on Night One (which now that we've had the claim, helps explain her "two Vigilantes" comment from Day Two). Rainbowdash has also pretty clearly alluded to certain things that need be done each game Day before anybody is hammered. And additionally, you (FlavourAnalysis) have just claimed to have jailkept Rainbowdash on Night Two, which could easily explain why neither Nanook nor bobsnox died last night.

Additionally, I generally advocate against trying to outguess Mods on whether there is scum in any given Neighborhood. But I am almost compelled to believe there

must

be a scum in the Neighborhood for this set-up to pass this by three reviewers and a back-up mod.

Though I do agree it seems very powerful to give a scum team "random" sway over a possible second killing role (I know I was able to wreak absolute havoc with a second scumkill in Karma Mafia), it seems infinitely more powerful to give the Town a Vigilante that essentially has to die three separate times before it dies.

Also, I can totally easily see the scum in the Neighborhood having some sort of 1-Shot "override" ability over the Claw or something (such that the kill will not be chosen "randomly" on night of the scum's choosing).

tl;dr: The ability obviously exists, so I don't think Rainbowdash is lying. But I agree there is probably a scum in the Neighborhood.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow that post is unorganized. Tired-thoughts posting FTW!

[petroleumjelly]

Triple-post: Okay, I just thought of a couple things Rainbowdash could be lying about, actually. But I still think the

overall

package (group of people who get to kill at night) is obviously truthful. And I further sincerely doubt that Rainbowdash and NanooktheWolf would be scum together.

So

there

.

PPE: Ooh, Rainbowdash! Questions for you.

1.)

If NanooktheWolf is

lynched

, does that

actually

prevent you from meeting your "day requirement"? If your requirement is what I think it is, then because NanooktheWolf will no longer be alive while going into Night Three, perhaps NanooktheWolf will not be considered in whether you met your requirement. I would at least check with the Mod on this point.

2.)

What do you think of bobsnox?

~

Oh, and duh. Yes, rather than scum being able to "override" the claw directly, it makes

much

more sense to balance the ability by letting scum effectively "block" the claw by failing the day requirement thing.

[petroleumjelly]

Why I don't think Rainbowdash is scum with Nanook:

... if she is scum with NanooktheWolf, [she] apparently decided to go from attacking Nanook on Day Two to making a crazy gambit on Day Three to defend Nanook...

And I just don't think scum would do that. Also -- and I guess this was unsaid in my posting -- it is extremely difficult for me to see

scumbuddies

claiming like this on Day Three of a large game when there are still nineteen players alive,

especially

with no dead killing roles beyond Umbrage, and no dead investigative roles. It would practically be a suicide mission, with no visible benefits. Furthermore, Rainbowdash's most recent explanation of NanooktheWolf's posting in the Day-QT rather obviously suggests that Nanook is scum, which would be rather counterintuitive of Rainbowdash to say if the whole point of claiming was to protect Nanook.

It seems that you're suggesting that perhaps Rainbowdash is bussing Nanook so that Rainbowdash can be "cleared." I find that hard to believe (again: even scum fear being killed at night, and with a dead Godfather, it is doubtful either of them have investigative immunity unless they as part of a scumteam separate from Umbrage's). And in any case, surely if they were scum together, there is a rather obvious flaw in the plan of "confirming" Rainbowdash -- the fact that the Neighborhood will

have

to act as a Town Vigilante lest we deduce there is a second scum within the Neighborhood.

Pretty much

everything

about this situation points away from Rainbowdash and NanooktheWolf being scum-buddies. If you are seriously going to advocate that position, I'm gonna need to hear a convincing argument.

[petroleumjelly]

NanooktheWolf:

1.)

Please explain why you chose to kill bobsnox on Night Two. I'm not quite seeing the reasoning in your latest post.

2.)

You just claimed that you see both of your alien partners as being scum at the moment, and then you vote TheJakalope. Assuming TheJakalope is not the third alien, why did you choose to vote TheJakalope "for pressure" over two people you "see as scum"?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

NanookTheWolf, I’m not quite sure your explanation for targeting bobsnox in Post 1659 actually explains why you are suspicious of bobsnox (though I guess my question did not

specifically

ask why you were suspicious of him, just why you targeted him). Could you be more concrete?

Additionally, why did you want to kill bobsnox on Night One?

2.)

diddin, why are you forcing yourself to choose between voting three people you claim to have a townread on in Post 1665?

3.)

Juls, how is it you “don’t know what the vote situation is” while not bothering to find out, but you are able to quickly respond (and win) the trivia question when it is posted less than a half hour later?

In that vein of inquiry, I would like a very detailed timeline of exactly how things went down. When did you see the trivia question? How long did you take before you submitted your answer? What were you doing when you noticed it? How far in the game were you while conducting your reread? What spurred you into immediately answering it?

[petroleumjelly]

Woke-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night-post:

Rainbowdash/NanooktheWolf/farside22: It sounds like the Mod has given you all a QuickTopic. And it also sounds like you've been using the QuickTopic for everything.

So: Are you disallowed from talking to each other

outside

of the QuickTopic? Also, are you allowed to submit your kills by PM? And if you

are

allowed to submit your kill by PM, are you allowed to submit one kill in the QuickTopic while actually sending in a different kill by PM that will override what you say in the QuickTopic?

[petroleumjelly]

I'm like 100% conftown unless you are seriously suggesting Buzz Lightyear is bulletproof scum in Toy Story Mafia.

You just stepped over the line here.

At this point, I think we can assume scum have safe-claims. So claiming you are Buzz Lightyear does not

make

you Buzz Lightyear.

What's more, what I find far more important than the fact that you've claimed Buzz Lightyear is the fact that you pretty much claimed to be a Vigilante on Days One and Two, but once we had a 3-man Vigilante group claim on Day Three, you suddenly retracted your claim. And now you're claiming to be "bulletproof" (i.e., "don't shoot me because it's useless") instead.

So. Besides NanooktheWolf, who do you think is scum? Why did you lie about being a Vigilante, even going so far as to ask for a list of people you should "laser" at the end of Day Two?

Because, as it happens, if

I

were a Vigilante, I would almost

certainly

have tried to kill you solely because you suggested that

you

were the Vigilante. This is especially so if I were in a 3-person Vigilante group. Why would the Town seriously need

another

Vigilante? And why would the Town need another Vigilante after FlavourAnalysis has claimed Vig => JOAT with a Vig shot? Far more likely, in my mind, would be that you are a Serial Killer trying to pose as a Vig.

So please explain to me, again, why NanooktheWolf is suspect for wanting to kill the person who was effectively claiming his role. The chances of you being a Vigilante while he was part of a 3-Man Vigilante group were ridiculously slim. And as it turns out, you apparently

were

lying about being a Vig.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Just finished jmurph3's iso at Rainbowdash's request.

At the beginning, I actually thought she looked moderately connected to Umbrage as she would say things like "Umbrage is scummy, but I think he is a VI,” which felt like a pretty weak way to avoid voting one’s partner. But I changed my mind after she apparently got frustrated with the game, and soon voted Umbrage simply because Umbrage had the most votes in Post 1046.

What strikes me about this is she clearly expressed her displeasure with her vote on Umbrage. This just doesn't seem like something a scumpartner is going to do. Why not at least go for bussing points? Also, if she was really trying to defend Umbrage, this doesn’t seem like a natural turn to take.

Other than that, nothing catches my attention except for her abrupt unvote of NanooktheWolf in Post 1579 because “pressure” had been applied. It seems a bit too nonconfrontational.

On the whole, I don’t think jmurph3 looks particularly Town, but I am also not thinking she looks partnered with Umbrage. By default, I guess I find her more likely Town than not.

2.)

I will be on extended V/LA for over a week, starting tomorrow. Chances are I will actually have plenty of access to a computer, but I will have a better idea once I get where I’m going.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I will admit that your (Juls') suggestion of FlavourAnalysis being a scum JOAT actually piques my curiosity, because in Simpsons Mafia, the Mod made Sideshow Bob a "Serial JOAT," who had an alternate win condition of hammering or nightkilling Bart.

But

. I personally doubt the Mod would really do something like that two games in a row. And although I can't say I really agree with jailkeeping Rainbowdash, his kill on SodaSpirit17 doesn't really trigger any alarm bells for me. I'd like to see how he plays out his role, personally.

2.)

So, random epiphany-thought that I will have to check up on: it occurred to me that since FourseenCircumstance had counterclaimed Watcher on Day One that, if scum have a role-blocker role (which I am putting at "likely" to "highly likely"), FourseenCircumstance would have been a rather obvious candidate for blocking. And if he

was

blocked, then scum

might

have let off some "too much knowledge" tells at some point on Day Two after FourseenCircumstance claimed his "result." It's somewhat of a longshot, but when I have time to reread that portion of the game, I'll be on the lookout for such tells just in case. I'd also appreciate if somebody else check on this, since it just might reveal some scums.

3.)

Aliens: Would you mind clarifying if you

know

your neighbors are also Aliens?

[petroleumjelly]

Uh. Why is it that nobody has pointed out a role-blocker completely destroys any semblance of a claimed Hider actually giving us information?

- If TheJakalope is Town and bobsnox is scum, scum can just roleblock TheJakalope to "confirm" bobsnox as Town.
- If TheJakalope is Town and bobsnox is Town, scum can just roleblock TheJakalope while also killing TheJakalope to "confirm" bobsnox as scum.
- If TheJakalope is Scum, this is all pretty much useless, because even if TheJakalope "confirms" bobsnox, it won't mean anything.

Either way, life or death for TheJakalope can't really "confirm" anything at all.

[petroleumjelly]

Seeing as Simpsons Mafia (the last large theme Scott Brosius modded) had a Town Roleblocker, a Mafia Jailkeeper, and a Mafia Roleblocker, I think it is safe to say scum very likely have a roleblocker-like role in this game, too.

[petroleumjelly]

That's rather doubtful, and I’m not about to research it.

In any case, the rules for

this

game make it fairly explicit that if an investigative role is blocked, the Mod is not going to disclose it. (See Rule 24). So I think it’s safe to say people are not told when they are roleblocked.

[petroleumjelly]

Must not be very many leads when people are voting for the lurkers.

Says the guy who hasn't voted for (or even claimed to be suspicious of) anybody all Day.

So what "leads" do you have? Who's scum? Why?

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: bobsnox

SpyreX, why don't you want TheJakalope to "lock down" where he is Hiding? The whole

point

of having him Hide is to know he Hid behind in case he dies.

After thinking it over for a couple days, I think having TheJakalope Hide behind bobsnox makes a lot of sense, assuming we are using NAR. I'm personally leery about bobsnox, but if I'm wrong and he is truly Town Bulletproof, then confirming him as Town will save a lot of trouble. Additionally, if bobsnox is Town, confirming him is double-plus good: the scum won't be able to nightkill him,

or

lynch him. It would basically just be a gigantic thorn in scum's side if it works out.

I'll figure out where my vote is moving in the next day or so.

[petroleumjelly]

So just to be clear: you

do

agree that having TheJakalope hide behind bobsnox is a good idea?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

DeathNote, I want your scum suspects,

now

, with reasons.

2.)

Oversoul, you just complained about always being lynched while on V/LA. Mind linking me to a few examples of this?

3.)

jmurph3, please explain your reasons for voting Oversoul.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: FlavourAnalysis

. Long post, would like thoughts.

1.)

I just finished reading the portion of the game after FourseenCircumstance claimed his “Watcher” result. I didn’t really catch any posts I was looking for (specifically, scum who might have been surprised that FourseenCircumstance had a result). But:

2.)

After rereading that portion of the game, I am now

seriously

questioning FlavourAnalysis. On Day Two, he was essentially

forced

into claiming Vigilante given FourseenCircumstance’s’ “result”; any other claim would have made him look highly suspect, given that he was seen targeting a player who had died.

As I noted earlier, this Vigilante claim directly contradicts his breadcrumb of Cop. Right now, I am thinking FlavourAnalysis has the safe-claim Woody. And so naturally, FlavourAnalysis breadcrumbed the most obvious role that Woody would be: a Cop / Sheriff.

Except he is now stuck claiming something else. Up until now I’ve been largely trying to suppress the feeling that this is bull, but I have come full circle back on this. I’ve been waiting for

years

to catch scum crumbing one role and ultimately claiming another. And now that it’s happened, I’ve almost let myself get talked out of it.

I think the strong pushback against FlavourAnalysis after he claimed 1-Shot Vig probably prompted him to rethink his claim over Night Two. And with PeregrineV conveniently laying out all of the possible things Woody could be on Day Two, FlavourAnalysis’ tweak on his claim on Day Three to being a JOAT seems like a fairly organic move for scum. Personally, I half-expected him to say something like “I lied about being 1-Shot,” but obviously scum would not be able to keep up that charade for very long, especially with a sole kill on Night Two, and

especially

not after the Aliens claimed.

The fact that FlavourAnalysis did not adjust his claim to JOAT until

after

the Aliens claimed also suggests that he might have done some quick recalculating: after all, why would a Town with a 3-Man Vigilante need a 1-Shot Vig, too? Had the Aliens not claimed, it is entirely possible the FlavourAnalysis would not have expanded on his claim at all. And given that he claims to have jailkept a player on a night when we are apparently

missing a kill

, that does not seem like a natural thing to do at all.

Additionally, I absolutely do not understand why he would “jailkeep” Rainbowdash on Night Two, despite his explanation for it. But I can certainly see why scum might have wanted Rainbowdash role-blocked last night.

As it stands, I honestly doubt FlavourAnalysis “jailkept” Rainbowdash.

Much

more likely is that he (or his scum partners) simply roleblocked Rainbowdash. But obviously FlavourAnalysis couldn’t claim that he just

roleblocked

Rainbowdash, so he went with the gentler, and more easily explainable claim: jailkeeping.

Finally, if FlavourAnalysis is really a town JOAT, why even jailkeep on Night Two? Presumably, a JOAT would have other and far safer options, such as some sort of investigatory role.

~

Now. FlavourAnalysis, would you mind explaining why you think RainbowDash is scum? After that, could you explain why you think NanooktheWolf is scum?

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: bobsnox

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Just skimmed inHimshallibe's posts, and it looks like he was crumbing his results awfully hard. Believing RandomActs' claim.

2.)

PPE: Was going to ask jmurph3 to point out if she had crumbed at all (I didn't catch anything skimming her posts just now), but I see FlavourAnalysis has confirmed it.

3.)

I'm Slinky Dog, Townie.

[petroleumjelly]

Hey, PeregrineV, claim your role.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod

: Could we get some prods, please?

[petroleumjelly]

(Maybe if we keep asking, it will come true.)

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: bobsnox

.

[petroleumjelly]

Thought as much. As a side-note, I think the two of you (SpyreX and diddin) are

awfully

lucky to have not been killed; I thought you were both were being

ridiculously

obvious when you were talking about the "secret reasons" for thinking there was a scum in the Alien group, in addition to the fact that you've both been tied to each other's back all game. In my opinion, you shouldn't be that transparent in the future.

But anyways. Now that we're done with that, I'm pretty much thinking the scum must mostly be lurkers or players who are not paying very close attention. The nightkills in this game make like

no sense

whatever, especially given how obvious (at least to me) several power roles have been in this game. I do agree that there is almost certainly scum in the Alien group, but I'm not sure we need to figure that out today when we will have all of tomorrow.

I'll try to sit down and look at all the claims later, there might be a few plans we can make for tonight.

[petroleumjelly]

Jailkeeper was probably our protective role.

[petroleumjelly]

Not seeing any solid plans for tonight. I would rather not direct our claimed Cop or our claimed JOAT; knowing who they target tonight is not essential knowledge for us, and just forces scum have to worry about it. We've pretty clearly already got our lynch and Vig target set out, so I suggest we wait until tomorrow and see what happens before trying to make "plans."

I'll keep my vote off bobsnox while we wait for the last set of Trivia Questions.

[petroleumjelly]

EBWOP:

I was

just

about to make that same point.

Vote: bobsnox

[petroleumjelly]

Mod: What is a Mafia Echo?

Receives power of lynched player at night.

[petroleumjelly]

Juls/PJ/Rhinox

If you're going to limit your kill to one of us, then do not kill Juls. If Juls is Town, having her lynched is infinitely more useful than having her nightkilled because it gives us another kill to work with.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, this needs saying again.

I think FlavourAnalysis is scum. I'm at the point where I just don't care about the Woody claim. I don't need to explain everything in this game in order to be right.

1.)

FlavourAnalysis thought he was caught in the act of the nightkill on Night One. He was originally going to claim Cop -- he breadcrumbed Cop at the very beginning of the game. Although he claimed he apparently talked with chkflip about fake breadcrumbing at the beginning of the game, chkflip never confirmed this conversation, and more importantly, chkflip has been replaced by kunkstar7, who is now confirmed to be

scum

.

I'm thinking the reason chkflip never confirmed the conversation was because it was a scum conversation and he was probably just facepalming at FlavourAnalysis' explanation. How has

nobody

brought this up? This has been on my mind practically ever since FlavourAnalysis has claimed, and it's like it feels like this is just a permanent blind spot for everybody but me.

As for the "missing" kill -- it looks more and more to me like there wasn't a missing kill in the first place. I don't claim to understand why scum would want to kill SodaSpirit17 -- I can only assume scum though the was a power role for some reason, or they were trying to make a "random" kill so as to not give away information or whatever. I don't understand a

lot

of nightkills in this game.

But there are no Doctor roles to explain a lack of a kill other than the Jailkeeper. bobsnox apparently wasn't even Bulletproof, so that can't explain the missing kill.

I think there is no "missing" kill because the scum killed SodaSpirit17 on Night One.

2.)

Lest we forget, FlavourAnalysis originally claimed Vigilante after thinking he was caught sending in a kill. But after having a Night to think about things, and after the Aliens claimed, he suddenly changed his claim to JOAT because he realized he could no longer get away with claiming Vigilante. This is ridiculously important.

He did not change his claim to JOAT until AFTER the Aliens claimed

. He did

not

start Day Three saying "by the way, I'm not really a Vigilante." He only did it when it was essentially necessary to guarantee his survival.

3.)

On Night Two, FlavourAnalysis claimed to have jailkept

Rainbow Dash

. Seriously. As I've explained earlier, this looks to me like the scum just roleblocked Rainbow Dash, and decided to explain it in a "friendly" way.

4.)

On Night Three, FlavourAnalysis chose to protect

jmurph3

? Words are hard to even put here.

5.)

And now FlavourAnalysis claims to not have any more powers. I suspect this is because bobsnox claimed to only have three powers as a JOAT. And finally:

6.)

Apparently bobsnox

was

a JOAT. So I'm really doubting FlavourAnalysis just

happens

to be a

second

JOAT who just

happened

to get caught sending in a kill who just

happens

to not have any powers that can actually help the Town.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh. And:

7.)

FlavourAnalysis just suggested we have RandomActs investigate a

Mason

(SpyreX). Yep.

[petroleumjelly]

Why "hide" the fact that you are a JOAT while claiming Vigilante instead? What good does that do if you are Town?

[petroleumjelly]

I am not going to respond point-by-point. I will just say two things:

1.)

You are claiming jmurph3 is both "confirmed Town" while also saying you were "given no information regarding her alignment." You can't even keep your story straight.

2.)

You are acting like you couldn't have possibly talked with chkflip about the game during the game. Last I checked, the roles in this game were sent on a Wednesday, and the Mod did not start the game until "20ish" players had confirmed their roles, the following Thursday. So I suspect you would have time to talk during that time period.

Additionally, regardless of whether scum have Daytalk or not in "other games" has no bearing on whether scum have daytalk in

this

game: after all, the Aliens apparently

do

have the ability to daytalk, and so this game could easily be an exception.

[petroleumjelly]

Because I don't like clutter. I get right to the point.

You have lied multiple times about this game, and now it looks like you can't even be straight on whether jmurph3 is "confirmed town" or not. Everything you have claimed in this game has been convenient and has only unfolded as the situation warrants. You breadcrumb Cop, you claim 1-Shot Vig when you think you've been caught, you change to JOAT after you realize people will start questioning why there is a 1-Shot Vig in a game with a

three player Vigilante team

, you just

happen

to roleblock the player who

does

claim Vigilante, and then you "protect" a player who you can't even decide whether they are confirmed Town or not.

Everything -- and I mean

everything

-- about your play points to scum. The

only

thing that has kept me off of you for this long is the fact that you have claimed Woody. But at this point, I am throwing claims to the wind and I am getting straight to hunting scum. And I think you are scum, Woody claim be damned.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

FlavourAnalysis is acting like she doesn't know what being scum on

this

site entails. As Juls said, this is just plain playing dumb. I don't think I've ever seen a game where scum were somehow "disallowed" from talking to each before a game started.

And most importantly, FlavourAnalysis pretty much completely ignores the strong possibility that scum have Day talk. I suspect scum do; this is pretty much a tacit agreement.

2.)

FlavourAnalysis is now continually offering themselves up to be Vigged. What a surprise. Once somebody makes a case against them, they immediately go for the ultimate appeal -- maybe if they

act

like they want to get Vigged, they won't actually be Vigged. They've seriously dropped this comment like three times on this page alone. If they are really town, they should be pushing to lynch scum (supposedly me) over offering themselves to be Vigged. Just another example a scum mindset.

It's pretty clear they know they can't really make a "case" against me -- pretty much nobody

has

made a case against me all game since I replaced in, and I plan to keep it that way. So instead, FlavourAnalysis is just going for last minute pity and trying to bullshit their way through another day.

If anything, this conversation has only solidified my thinking that FlavourAnalysis is scum.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, and ha.

I bet the reason FlavourAnalysis has called jmurph3 "confirmed Town" is because FlavourAnalysis

knows

jmurph3 is Town. Also, I fully suspect he is aiming for some reciprocity from jmurph3.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, and by the way:

The Aliens

should not

tell us who they are going to kill. It's pretty obvious scum have a roleblocker (since RandomActs claimed to have not gotten a result), so letting the scum know who is going to be Vigged just tells scum how best to use their night powers.

I don't think the Aliens were going to tell us their target in the first place, but better out than in.

[petroleumjelly]

About to head the bed, but since it's been brought up a few times:

I am actually pretty

relieved

that farside22 flipped a different color. My big concern with the Aliens was that there were going to be two Town Aliens and one Scum Alien. But if the Aliens are some sort of Survivor Group -- which I now (semi)firmly believe -- then it really does not make sense for there to be scum within the group. Why make scum part of a survivor group? That doesn't make much sense. And I also certainly do not buy that they are somehow a collective scumgroup.

This also helps explain how Scott Brosius was probably

trying

to balance the game. I suspect the reviewing process went something like this: Scott Brosius suggests a 3-Man Vigilante group. It is probably shot down by reviewers. How do you balance it? It's powerful. Scum have to kill it three times, and I presume scum cannot even role-block it with any sort of consistency. So what to do?

It looks like there were two safeguards used. First, each Alien has to be on the day's lynch to use the power at all. Normally this would likely be difficult to do, except in this game the Aliens went out of their way to guarantee they get a nightkill. As it happens, this leads directly into the second safeguard: the Aliens aren't supposed to be obvious about their status. Because if they are, they should get nightkilled and lose. So the Aliens were

supposed

to balance "keeping themselves hidden enough to survive" against "trying to get nightkills so they can more easily achieve their win condition."

Ironically, I think it is probably the Aliens that will

win

us the game in the end, but chances are they will themselves lose in the process because ultimately they played their roles as if they were Town and not as if they were Survivors.

[petroleumjelly]

I

strongly

disagree with a Juls lynch. Not only do I think Juls is Town, but if you are lynching her today solely for her "vengekill" ability then we would do better to leave her for later to use the exact same ability. For example: if we have a three-player endgame and manage to get both Juls and a Mason that far, then the town wins. The vengekill ability gets

stronger

the longer it lives. And if she is Town as I suspect and scum are forced to kill her overnight in fear of the ability, then we are avoiding a mislynch in the first place.

A Juls lynch is a lazy lynch, as far as I'm concerned. This game is already full of lazy lynches, and it sure hasn't worked out. I am still strongly in favor of a FlavourAnalysis lynch, but I won't be voting until we get RandomAct's result.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: Flavour Analysis

[petroleumjelly]

I've made the case against Flavour Analysis at least twice. Rather than repeating myself again: Post 1983 and Post 2342.

In addition, Flavour Analysis has been suggesting bad plans throughout the game. He was trying to direct Cop investigations by Day Two of the game (to glowball and PeregrineV: notably, glowball died).

His "plan" for TheJakalope was for TheJakalope to hide behind Nanook and to have the Aliens then Vig Nanook. Glad I decided to look over his posts again, because this "plan" is beyond ridiculous.

And then after RandomActs claimed, he suggested that he investigate a claimed

Mason

.

I seriously don't know how anybody can think he is Town. It is just getting more and more obvious the longer he lives.

[petroleumjelly]

I don't care

.

FlavourAnalysis has gotten by this

whole

game based solely on his Woody claim, despite the fact that

every

"night action" he has taken has been explicitly anti-town (kill town, roleblock a Vig kill, protect an unconfirmed), every plan he has proposed has been anti-town (suggesting Cops investigate somebody who died, trying to get the Vigs to kill themselves along with the Hider, and trying to waste an investigation on Masons), and he has continually changed his claim for self-preservation as the game has demanded. This is almost as clear cut as scum play

gets

. I've been tingling over him for literally

game days

, but I have continually held off because of that damned Woody claim.

I think he is scum, period. I have ignored my gut before in situations like this, and it practically never turns out for the best. I don't want this to turn into another game where the town loses because of stupid assumption when everything in the game points to something else.

[petroleumjelly]

Variables

?

Seriously. You know what? I'm going to pull the WIFOM card here and now.

1.)

I think Juls is Town. Read her posts. I'm serious: isolate her, and read her posts. Do you think they are scummy? Because I don't.

Now it would certainly be

easier

if she was scum, because she has claimed VT. It would wrap the game up in a bow and wouldn't require thinking. But I don't believe it. And I'm not even convinced

you

believe it.

2.)

I

know

I'm Town. Try taking a gander at Day One -- do you

see

how fast the wagon on me died after I replaced in? It melted off of me like snow on a hot plate, and I literally have not been attacked since. It's pretty obvious why: the Day One lynchbait was no longer lynchbait. I (replacing DonJosh) was very obviously the scum's attempt at a counterwagon to the Umbrage wagon, but it could not stand up once Umbrage was lynched.

I've argued against bad lynches, I've argued against plans that were bad (such as my initial argument against the Hider plans, which you all managed to

talk me out of

, and then look

lo and behond

it turned out to be a terrible plan after all), and I've clearly been paying attention to pretty much every detail in this game.

I figured out you and diddin were probably Masons somewhere on

Day Two

. Perhaps you noticed how I pretty much left the two of you completely alone?

Now take a look at the first post of the game, with all the deaths. How do those kills

make any sense

? I completely understand how this is WIFOM, but those are

not

kills I would make as scum. There's a

reason

I have a Scummie for Best Scum: because I can sniff out power roles, and I

kill them

before they become a problem. You think I'm going to leave (i) two Masons and (ii) three Vigilantes alive for

multiple nights in a row

?

I don't think so. I've done the damnedest I can do with my vanilla role, but I can only do so much. I don't want to be ignored simply because I happen to be vanilla in a game that has mass-claimed and you seem to think that lynching everybody who happens to be vanilla will somehow make everything better.

You are taking the lazy way out and ignoring obvious scum. You are basically taking the "let's not even bother scumhunting" attitude. Unless I am sorely wrong about Juls in particular, I can pretty much guarantee you going to have to hit the "hunh, I guess PJ was right" stage, and I would much rather you hit that point before I die. I have

never

been lynched as Town in almost six years of playing, and I am

not

going to let it happen in this game because you are too lazy to lynch scum.

[petroleumjelly]

When somebody loved me, everything was beautiful...

Every hour we spent together lives within my heart. <3

~

To respond to Nanook: no, I don't think the Masons are scum -- at least not together. I've literally had them as "probable Town" in my notes since like Day Two when I realized they were probably Masons given their reaction to the Alien claims.

That said, I don't think they ever actually confirmed that they are town to each other, despite being asked at some point (either that or I missed it). I've lost a game to "false confirmation" with a scum Mason before (in Large Normal 92), so I

would

like reassurance on that front while we're at it.

I'll pretty much be gone today and tomorrow (or at least I should be, if I actually focus on the work I'm supposed to do), but I'll try to check in sometime tonight and sometime tomorrow.

[petroleumjelly]

Juls isn't lynched.

Vote: FlavourAnalysis

.

[petroleumjelly]

Juls has three votes (SpyreX, jmurph3, FlavourAnalysis). It takes four votes to lynch.

Yes, I oppose lynching Juls and shooting you. I don't lynch people I think are Town.

[petroleumjelly]

@PJ: If the Juls lynch results in an FA kill, what's the difference between you voting FA and you hammering to get FA killed? You're just not going to get the support for an FA lynch today.

I don't know. I guess there's probably not really a difference.

[petroleumjelly]

God.

Okay, there actually doesn't seem to be much difference at all, actually. Even if Juls isn't lynched today, I prolly can't stop her from being lynched tomorrow. And goodness knows when I think about this game it's just wondering if I'm dead wrong abouts Juls and/or FlavourAnalysis. It's probably too early in the morning to be making these sorts of decisions, but:

Unvote: FlavourAnalysis, Vote: Juls

.

Juls, if you're Town, I

sincerely

apologize. At this point I'm just going to hope you're scum who claimed to get a vengekill prize to deter being lynched, because that's pretty much the only way I can see it coming together.

[petroleumjelly]

diddin: UNVOTE. ME. NOW.

I am

NOT

about to be lynched. And I am

not

buying the Masons as scum. They've been on my town list since forever. I'm actually a bit surprised the Masons are alive over Nanook, but I guess that only makes this easier:

The scum here are jmurph3 and FlavourAnalysis. End of story.

Everything -- and I mean

everything

-- points to FlavourAnalysis being scum.

Where did the Night One Mafia kill go?

The answer is that FlavourAnalysis sent in the kill (or at least felt compelled to "cover" for his buddies, whichever). Furthermore, the

only

thing confirming FlavourAnalysis as "Woody" is jmurph3 herself. And additionally, FlavourAnalysis could not give a straight answer on whether or not jmurph3 was "confirmed Town" or merely "confirmed Bullseye": obviously FlavourAnalysis did not want jmurph3 getting lynched, so he tried to toe the line as closely as possible. But he still minced his words whenever it came to giving an opinion on jmurph3.

1.)

jmurph3, why do the Masons "have" to be the remaining scum?

2.)

diddin, why do you think I'm scum? And furthermore, why do you think I'm the "last" scum? Do you seriously think this game only has (had?) four scum in it?

[petroleumjelly]

In case it's not clear: I will lynch jmurph3 and FlavourAnalysis in any order. I do not care.

[petroleumjelly]

What's the difference between SpyreX and diddin "confirming" each other to you and FlavourAnalysis "confirming" each other?

And furthermore, why have you suddenly shifted to claiming you can only neighborize somebody with the

"flavor"

of Woody as opposed to the

role name

of Woody?

[petroleumjelly]

I agree there is a

huge

different between role name and flavor, and that's not a distinction I recall you making before.

And actually, hold it. One sec.

[petroleumjelly]

And the big difference is in RA's flip. The Jessie flip - and the confirmation of my neighboring with RA - proves what I'm saying. We talked about it and it just doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Who is "we"? Don't think, just respond.

[petroleumjelly]

OOOOH

yes. Yes yes yes.

[petroleumjelly]

(Wow, I am

shaking

as I am writing this post.)

All right: jmurph3 has just

confirmed

being scum with FlavourAnalysis. Earlier in the game when jmurph3 claimed her role, she said:

I am Bullseye. I am a lonely neighbor - i.e. a very limited neighborizer. I can pick one person a night to neighborize, but will only successfully neighborize them if they are Woody or Jessie, and even then, can only be neighbors with them one at a time. I neighborized Ray on N1 with no result. I neighborized FA on N2, and found that he was, in fact, Woody (which is yet another reason why I think Bobs is full of it). On N3 I neighborized Spyrex with no result.

@RandomActs: If I neighborize you tonight,

we will not be able to talk until N5

(assuming we are both still alive). If you have a pertinent role, it might be best to claim it now before the mystery of it leads to your death.

Basically, jmurph3 has been claiming she cannot talk to people on the same night she neighborizes them. But just now, jmurph3 claimed she neighborized FlavourAnalysis

last night

(i.e., could not talk to him) but that she has somehow

talked with FlavourAnalysis concerning Jessie’s (RandomActs’) death.

Hey, guess what? THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. At least, it is not possible

unless they are scum together.

For the love of all that is good and holy, lynch them.

Jesus criminy diddin, you better fucking log on and unvote me

NOW.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: jmurph3

Please

oh God

, this is already taking too long.

And it also just hit me: why did RandomActs (Jessie) live through Night Five, after he claimed a guilty result on kunkstar7? Answer: jmurph3 is scum, was table to talk with RandomActs, and figured out that RandomActs did not have any investigations left. Otherwise, with the Godfather dead, why risk leaving him alive for a single night after the mass-claim revealed not a single protective role?

BLAH. HURRY UP.

[petroleumjelly]

Sorry, can't stop from myself from another post here, I am just

energized

right now.

First, I can't stop from saying an

I FUCKING KNEW IT

right now. I've been going after FlavourAnalysis

forever

and yet nobody seems to have had the slightest bit of interest in it. The reason always seems to come back to "but gosh, he claimed WOODY." This despite the fact that every other fake-claim we've seen has pretty much been terrible (I mean really,

Ken

?). Given that Scott Brosius gave fake claims in the last large normal he ran, it's a sure bet he gave scum at

least

one good fakeclaim this game, and what better fakeclaim than

Woody

?

Nothing

in FlavourAnalysis' play makes sense as town, but it makes perfect damned sense for scum. I don't know why he killed whoever it was on Night One -- maybe they thought he was a power role. But I can certainly take a guess as to why the scum "jailkept" (i.e., roleblocked) Rainbowdash on Night Two, and why he would claim to use a doctor protection on jmurph3 on Night Three. And then, oh gosh! After Buzz Lightyear claims he was 3-Shot, Woody suddenly doesn't have to fake-claim any more (after breadcrumbing Cop, claiming 1-Shot Vig, and changing to JOAT after seeing a 3-Man Vigilante group claim) so he just doesn't. He has been sliding by on this stupid claim the entire game, and now it is freaking perilously close to winning the game for scum.

I have played this game about as well as I can. I don't

have

a fancy power role to back me up or to dissuade me being lynched, but that sure as Hell hasn't stopped me from trying to get my top picks for scum lynched. I gave up trying to protect Juls yesterday because it was frankly pretty much a lost cause: not a single person was voting with me, nobody was showing interest in voting with me, and even if I somehow managed to stop Juls being lynched yesterday there was no way I could stop her being lynched today. I'm still royally

pissed

that I didn't stick to my vote at least out of principle (which is what I was determined to do until -- not coincidentally -- BOTH FlavourAnalysis and jmurph3 essentially asked me "what's the point?" to which there really isn't a satisfactory answer, and they both knew it).

Also (and this was something I had considered but didn't actually point out earlier), how does it make

any

sense that Bullseye can only neighborize Woody and Jessie? Why wouldn't she also be able to neighborize the final member of Woody's Roundup: Stinky Pete?

Sorry, mostly discombobulated thoughts here. But God if I lose this game after all this.

[petroleumjelly]

Thank sweet jesus, you were giving me a heart attack.

/deflates

[petroleumjelly]

If you have questions, give me a bit. I feel like I need to walk (or run) around the block or something. That was like the scariest freaking situation

ever

. My heart is pounding.

[petroleumjelly]

The silence is deafening. Wow.

In case it isn't obvious by now: jmurph3 was probably just continually posting (and apparently not carefully watching what she said) to wave her hand at FlavourAnalysis to signal the quicklynch on me. But apparently FlavourAnalysis just wasn't online or looking at the game -- he had posted about a half hour before jmurph3 did, so the two weren't quite coordinated.

And now, despite jmurph3 being able to respond to me just earlier, she suddenly ups and disappears once she slips up.

HMM.

Must suck to trip right before the finish line.

[petroleumjelly]

Congrats!

Sheeping diddin is tech, but I imagine you'll get a kick out of reading these last two pages. Won't take much time once you get there.

[petroleumjelly]

Respectfully, SpyreX, I don't think it's possible for there to be only one scum. But

if

there is somehow one scum, I think it has to be jmurph3 because

she

is the one who just got caught in a lie concerning her neighborizing ability.

jmurph3 claimed she cannot talk to somebody on the same night she neighborizes them. Her first post today said she neighborized FA last night. And then she claimed she talked to FA about Jessie's (RandomActs') death. That is simply not possible unless jmurph3 was lying from the get-go, but the thing is: she

can't

be lying about how her neighborizing ability works because Jessie (RandomActs) confirmed that she could not talk to jmurph3 on the night he was neighborized.

Which means

that jmurph3 is a scum neighborizer. I don't understand the whole Bullseye business either, but it is simply

not possible

that jmurph3 could talk to FlavourAnalysis last night

unless

they are, in fact, scum together.

It's not every day scum slip like up this, and jmurph3's complete and total avoidance of this thread after slipping is as damning as any case I can possibly make. So too is the fact that she was steadily posting a half hour after FlavourAnalysis was online: it is pretty obvious she was just trying to while away the time in the hopes FlavourAnalysis would log on so they could quicklynch me. But unfortunately for them, diddin (

thankfully

) logged on first and unvoted me.

If you think the only other conceivable pairing is jmurph3/me, then jmurph3 is undoubtedly the lynch today. And in a manner of speaking, I almost prefer to her lynch her first because that means that tomorrow I will not only get to see FlavourAnalysis lynched, but it will be the lynch that wins the game. That would be a very nice (and fitting) way to finish this wretched game in my mind.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: FlavourAnalysis

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: Pj

Yo Pj. So tell me again, why did you push for

jmurph3

instead of me yesterday?

Fixed that for you.

You had all night to think of a way to try to mislynch me, and this is your big question? My answer is pretty much Post #2540. Still:

Regardless of whether I thought you were scum (which I did), jmurph3's handling of yesterday -- waiting for you to show yourself online so the two of you could quicklynch me, and also suggesting that she talked to you about RandomActs' death -- confirmed to me that she was your partner. Still, it was

technically

possible for her to be lone scum, and so she was the better lynch. Finally, I'm not stupid: if I know two players are scum but I know I will have an easier time lynching one of them first, I will likely push to lynch that player first. Such turned out to be the case here.

At this point, there is nothing that confirms your Woody claim. Your "Vigilante" shot was a scum kill; your "jailkeep" on Rainbowdash was a role-block; and your "protection" of jmurph3 only exists insofar as the two of you have "protected" each other all game by soft-confirming each other.

Please die now.

[petroleumjelly]

Is this for real?

1.)

jmurph3 said she talked to you about RandomActs' death:

And the big difference is in RA's flip. The Jessie flip - and the confirmation of my neighboring with RA - proves what I'm saying.

We talked about it and it just doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Who is "we"? Don't think, just respond.

FA and I. But stop trying to change the subject.

The distinction was implicit, and I think I might have even said something to that effect when the confusion between Bobs and FA was happening. If I've only ever claimed to confirm FA's flavor or character, and haven't said one thing about his role, then clearly I have no way or knowing or trying to know about his role.

It is simply

not possible

that jmurph3 could have talked to you if you are Town, because according to her own claim, she cannot talk to a player on the same night she neighborizes them. And since jmurph3 started off Day Seven (yesterday) claiming she had just neighborized you (i.e., effectively claiming the two of you had not talked to each other since she had neighborized RandomActs), she confirmed herself as a scum neighborizer who slipped up keeping her own details straight. The fact that you're denying such a conversation existed simply obviates the underlying the point. You can't

admit

to having the conversation or else you would just be confirming yourself as scum even faster.

2.)

You want hard evidence?

Anybody with a brain reading Page 101 of this game can see what was happening clear as day. After diddin voted for me, jmurph3 suddenly pops in the thread to essentially announce "I'm here" and waits for you to show up. I engage her in a conversation -- after all, she can't exactly

ignore

me in case diddin is online -- and in the process, she slips up. I catch her, diddin unvotes, and suddenly she stops posting.

Anybody who has spent

any

time on this site whatsoever can recognize a quicklynch attempt when they see one. jmurph3 was posting solely to pass the time waiting for you to show up: she couldn't exactly up and vote me first since she opened the Day suggesting that the Masons were scum. That would have rather obviously led diddin to unvote me had he showed up.

PPE:

3.)

Unsurprisingly, you're acting like jmurph3 was actually telling the truth about her fake-claim to support you. jmurph3 was not Bullseye. It is

highly

unlikely that she could "only" neighborize Woody and Jessie given that her role turned out to be

Lotso

. She could probably neighborize

whoever she wanted

.

So here's the question:

why would jmurph3 claim she could "only" neighborize Jessie and Woody if she could in fact neighborize

anybody

?

Let's see. Jessie turned out to be

Town

. So that means...

Oh yes.

That "Woody" is scum.

That jmurph3 crafted her claim

specifically

so she could support what was clearly the strongest safeclaim in the game: Woody.

4.)

I can hardly believe you are seriously acting like me being worried about you possibly breadcrumbing

MY ROLE

is scummy in any manner whatsoever. At that point in the game, I was seriously considering the possibility that scum did not have fake-claims at all. And so when I see somebody who looks like they are trying to breadcrumb Slinky Dog ("S.D.") in the middle of a post, I am

going

to say something about it.

[petroleumjelly]

*chin on hand*

Yeah, we're done here. Your responses are simply devolving into a big

"nuh uh!

(not that you have much of a choice), and that's not even worth my time.

[petroleumjelly]

Gee, you're right, I guess we're not quite done here. Because I’m pretty sure you just slipped up on the Neighborizing details, too. Wow. One second.

[petroleumjelly]

Yep, here we are. You

just

said:

Of course she couldn't talk to us on the same night. We only talked for

one

night. She then neighborized us again, and we had to wait till night to talk to her again, but she was lynched.

One night, you say? That’s funny:

I am Bullseye. I am a lonely neighbor - i.e. a very limited neighborizer. I can pick one person a night to neighborize, but will only successfully neighborize them if they are Woody or Jessie, and even then, can only be neighbors with them one at a time. I neighborized Ray on N1 with no result.

I neighborized FA on N2, and found that he was, in fact, Woody (which is yet another reason why I think Bobs is full of it). On N3 I neighborized Spyrex with no result.

So let’s see. jmurph3 “neighborized” you on Night Two, meaning the two of you could talk as of Night Three. On Night Three, she “failed” at neighborizing SpyreX.

Which means

that if the two of you were actually telling the truth, the two of you must also have talked on Night Four, the night she neighborized RandomActs. So if you are

Town

, you would have talked to jmurph3 on

two

nights (Night Three and Night Four), and not just "one night," which you in fact

bolded

in your own post just now.

Not only have you slipped up when talking about jmurph3 in general (switching between calling her “confirmed Town” and “confirmed Bullseye”), but now you are slipping in that you can’t even remember how many nights you were supposedly “neighborized” with jmurph3.

I don't really care that you want me to continue arguing with you about whatever. I have to convince diddin, not you. Luckily for me, you're essentially just hanging yourself here. If my arguments didn't convince him before, this blatant slip has pretty much nailed your own coffin.

~

diddin, for the love of God, I think this may just be the most obvious endgame I have ever participated in. End this.

[petroleumjelly]

Sigh.

4) Jmurph is confirmed town to us. I would protect confirmed town over all ya'll any Day because (other than the fact that I haven't been keeping up on this game) I don't trust anyone OTHER than jmurph.

[petroleumjelly]

==========[]

[petroleumjelly]

FlavourAnalysis, I will say this once.

There is no "reply" to your stupid accusation that I allegedly "faked" everything with jmurph3. Obviously I did not. The best I can do is state the obvious:

I was posting frantically in an attempt to do whatever it took to prevent being lynched. I have

never

been lynched as Town, and I could clearly see where yesterday was headed after diddin voted for me and jmurph3 had popped on. I figured I would engage her in whatever conversation I could and see what happened. To be honest, I was pretty much just expecting to see you pop in with a vote followed by a quick game over (since diddin did not appear to be online that I could tell)

But as it turned out, she screwed up. I suspect that many players might have missed it, but given that I actually

pay attention

to what people post, I was able to sift through her posts (using the "search" function, also known as "control + f") to find the post I was looking for that contradicted what she just said. Rather like how I was able to quickly respond to you using quotes, because -- not surprisingly -- I know what the Hell I'm looking for when I see somebody lie.

And seriously, you're arguing that I'm scum because I was posted

quickly

? Damned right I was posting quickly. I was

typing my ass off

to get that post out the door as fast as possible, because as far I was concerned every second counted.

Now:

==============[]

[petroleumjelly]

Thanks for playing, all. Definitely a frustrating game on multiple levels.

Also, my "tip" to Ranmaru: don't lie as Town.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, insomnia. Might as well make a few comments since sleep is eluding me:

1.)

It's probably somewhat difficult to appreciate from those who were Town, but playing this game as scum felt like trying to swim up a waterfall. You will notice that of the 19 non-mafia players, we (the mafia) eventually had to lynch or get the town to misvig 11 of them just to win. In other words, we had to get the town to kill over half of its members. And given that the town was packed with (1 & 2) the two most recognizable characters -- Buzz and Woody -- each being 3-Shot JOATS, (3 & 4) two Masons, (5 & 6 & 7) a 3-Man Vigilante group, (8) 2-Shot Cop, (9) Watcher, (10) Jailkeeper, and a (11) an Odd-Night Hider, we obviously had our work cut out for us. We

absolutely

needed the "gifts" the Town gave us (i.e., FourseenCircumstance's fake-claim, DeathNote's fake-claim, and I at least hope that FlavourAnalysis' fake-claim bit him in the ass in the end, too).

By Night Four of the game (after which there were 10 dead players, only one of which as Mafia), I had pretty much mapped out the game in several variations in the scum QT, and because of the Vigilante group our

best

endgame scenarios were pretty much trying to get jmurph3 in the final three along with a Mason. Although I love killing me some Masons, we simply could not

afford

to kill Masons with so many other roles floating around.

Of course, we were unaware that the Cop was 2-Shot and the Vigilantes lost their kill once reduced to a single member, but we literally reached a point where we decided it was better to not even try to keep our strongest role (the Strongblocker) alive because doing so meant holding off trying to get a Vigilante lynched / vengekilled by Juls. Not that that ever

happened

. *grumble*

2.)

I feel like I need to specifically talk about the Juls scenario. Everything this town did with Juls was very wrong.

->

a.)

If you honestly thought Juls was scum, your best bet was to nightkill her after the Strongblocker died (although I can see an argument that perhaps there was a Mafia Doctor). After all, if Juls was scum with a vengeful ability, lynching her just lets scum kill off the most bothersome of town roles.

->

b.)

If there was a question about Juls being scum, she should have been left alive as long as possible. I was

very

serious when I said that leaving alive vengeful roles is better for town than lynching them early. In fact, I was kicking myself for pointing this out. Consider the following scenarios:

Scenario #1

: 5 players alive, 2 scum. Lynch Juls. If she is Town, the game is lost, because even if she kills correctly, the scum will nightkill and the game will be left with two players.

Scenario #2

: 5 players alive, 2 scum. Lynch Player A, scum. Scum kill Player B. Next day, lynch Juls. If she is Town, her kill can still win the game.

Essentially, scum

could not

afford to allow Juls to live until endgame because it gives Town one final kill that is practically sure to hit scum. And so lynching Juls with 7 alive was really quite shameful. Had this town realized this and acted on it, I can pretty much guarantee scum would have lost this game.

I felt especially bad lynching Juls -- not only because I knew it was strategically unsound, but because her posts really screamed "Town" to me. I also very much disagree with the players who were calling her stupid. Consider the game from her standpoint:

She is a vanilla townie. Upon mass-claim, there are apparently 2 Masons, 3 Neighbor-Vigs, and 3-Woody's-Round-Up-Neighbors. From her perspective, the Woody's Round-Up players seem like they are Town, and that means there pretty much

must

be something wrong with one of the two other groups. Had I been Town, I probably would have been ridiculously paranoid about this exact possibility. After all, there was

nothing

in this game that

actually

"confirmed" the Masons except for the Masons themselves. It's easy to criticize somebody's play when

you

have your own separate information to work with (for example, diddin happened to know he was Town with SpyreX; Juls, however, was not privy to this information), but that doesn't mean your criticism is entirely justified.

3.)

On glowball:

First, your counterclaim did not get Umbrage lynched, nor was it in any way necessary or justified. FourseenCircumstances had already "counterclaimed" the Watcher aspect of the claim, which was more than enough to assure that Umbrage was lynched. As it is, I doubt even FourseenCircumstance's "counter" was even necessary to get Umbrage lynched.

Second, the only thing you likely did was completely mislead the entire town (along with FourseenCircumstances) about what nightchoices were best to make on Night One. I (as Mafia) figured you were probably a Serial Killer at that point, but we didn't even bother to role-block you. In fact, when you retracted your claim on Day Two, I pretty much decided you were vanilla town when I discovered the game where you pulled something similar as a Townie.

Third, although your scumhunting turned out to be quite accurate, you tanked your own credibility (i) by your completely unnecessary lie, and (ii) your attitude. Catching scum is only half the game; the other half is getting people to listen to you. As it is, we (the Mafia) pretty much set out to completely ignore you because I (correctly) figured that you were just going to rub people the wrong way.

Fourth, acting like everybody should have listened to you once you became "confirmed Town" is rather ridiculous. For example, what would have happened had the Town blindly followed Juls (sorry to use you as an example here, Juls) after she became "confirmed Town" upon being lynched? Her dying words were to lynch one of the Masons. Which, as you can see, would not have turned out well.

Players die all the time in mafia games. Some players are going to turn out to have been on the right track; others are going to turn out to be on the wrong track. Just because you were on the right track in

this

game does not justify you call other players narrowminded or stupid for not following your death wishes.

4.)

In any case, thanks for the kind words, all.

[petroleumjelly]

Mafia QT

A bit miffed that our N1 kill on bobsnox apparently

was

blocked by a blanket 1-Shot Bulletproof. I had at least hoped the Jailkeeper was actually the explanation; guess not.