TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win
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ZeL1nK
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ZeL1nK Goon
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moi wrote:So Zel1nk are you scum again this game? Just turn yourself in if you are and save us the trouble
Nope. And I actually have no idea who I am because I don't follow the series.
But I'm a commander. So I must be a pretty cool guy.
As for name claiming, I don't see a particular reason to name claim because there's probably nothing useful to be gained from it.
p-edit: beaten to the punch-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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marco wrote:Why are people pushing the vezok lynch?
Because it's vezok
rodion wrote:On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage), but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.
Wait, vezok suggested it? I didn't even realise that. It also has nothing to do with why a vezok wagon is a good thing.
There is one pro-town reason I can think of that a vezok wagon doesn't need to happen, though... andrew is in this game. And an andrew wagon is just as good.
I'm conflicted now.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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I am going to vig Zinger tonight. Anyone have a problem with this?
Chevre wrote:I think a nameclaim is a bad idea; even if factions are randomized, it may be the case that their TV Roles have a factor in any PRs that may exist.
If it's like the last jasont game, roles are randomised, not just alignments.
The reason it's a bad idea is because it's a waste of time and achieves nothing.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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Oh, I'm a hydra. My heads are poster#1 and poster#2. I've been told by poster#1 he wants to remain anonymous. I'd tell you who I am but I haven't played with a majority of the players in this game and I don't think it's important.
As for this game itself, Rod is town, MoI is town, Vifam is scum.
unvote
VOTE: vifam
Reads list in #145 looks contrived. It's as though he was just giving "reads" to give the illusion that he was scum hunting. I mean, come on... Look at the Zinger read, for example. It's like a "well, duh!" kind of read, and it was completely unnecessary. Also looks like buddying newb-town (Rod) while calling MoI-town scummy.
Subsequent posts are full of deflection and weak attacks for stuff that really isn't scummy.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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jil is replacing out of all her games. I've seen her replace out of two other games I'm following with the exact same post. It's not an alignment tell.
izak wrote:And jilynne/future replacement is scummy, for reasons which include meta I can't mention.
K, start with your reasons that don't include meta.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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No, andrew, no on would ever call any of your posts "good". MoI was talking about Pinky's post (which mentioned you).
Zinger wrote:ZeL1nK claimed he would kill me Night 1 before I had said ANYTHING in this game what-so-ever.
Ah, nope.
You'd posted in this thread when I said that.
Zinger wrote:Also, unvote.
That's it?-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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Am I the only one that read easjo's #269 and saw "I am scum" repeated about 50 times?
silverdrummer wrote:They aren't really helping in any way. Seemingly joking the whole time, avoiding Hydra head claiming with no reason (as far as I can see)...
Helping what?
Joking about what?
As for not claiming heads, why do you care?
plj wrote:Zinger is not putting forth any sort of content whatsoever, despite doing some pretty decent scumhunting in Super Hero Mafia. PeregrineV and Leonshade both look like they are active lurking, not putting much content out, and not really committing to any reads.
My thoughts on Zinger are pretty much the same, and while I'm not sure about Leon, I'm pretty sure Pere's 'active lurking' isn't an indication of alignment.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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unvote
VOTE: Zinger
No, Zinger, you're not doing anything.
Just responding to stuff I read, can't be bothered quote-walling.
easjo isn't my top suspect, that post (#269) was scummy, though. And yes, the whole thing, The parts that were 'null' are scummy because they're 'null'. It's fluff designed to make it look like he's providing content.
Leon is prob-town. At least he's done nothing that makes me think he's scum. killer's 'case' on him is stretching.
Not reading DavidX as scum, either.
izak is scum, though. I kind o loled at his comment about vollkan's method of scumhunting when izak's method of scumhunting is to.... er.... um.... yeah....
@Mod,
Can I vig two people tonight? (Meransiel and Zinger, for example)-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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killer wrote:Dear God. Do people want to give more input than, "KJ is being silly, he should just believe Leon is town like the rest of us."?
killer, I personally don't care whether you agree with my read, but your case on Leon is stretching.
- Scum fabricate excuses to claim that they find someone suspicious.
- Scum uses manipulation and deceit to achieve their nefarious ends.
- Scum try to look suspicious of someone that is in no danger of being lynched so they are uninvolved with the lynch of a townie.
- Scum need to look like they are trying to catch scum.
Like yeah, these are valid points in general, but trying to apply them to Leon is stretching.
The main reason I think he's probably town is mostly to do with nuances in his posts that give me town vibes. He's also done nothing that really stands out and makes me think he's scum, so bonus points there, considering how many people are begging to be lynched right now.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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junpei wrote:Also, I apologize if you've already done this Zel1nK, but I couldn't find where you explained why you claimed vigilante? It seemed to serve no purpose. You say that you "never tell jokes" and that you are always serious. You even referenced your claim recently wondering if you could kill both of Zlinger and Meran. The fact that you never joke makes me find that suspicious as that is something that you would ask in a role PM. Even so it seems rather obvious whether or not your PM says you can kill two in a night. I want you to explain this as best you can.
In what possible way could it benefit you for me to discuss my motives here?
plj wrote:Zinger townslipped. He's town.
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, I don't consider that a town slip, but it's at least not worth pursuing today.
izak is a wagon I can get behind, though.
Unvote
VOTE: izak-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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OK.
Zinger claimed third party with a self win-con. I want to lynch him just to make him lose D1 if he's telling the truth.
I'm trying to make sense of this claim.
There's someone with 'an item' that means Zinger wins if he targets them. But he's "self-aligned", and whoever has this item gets permanently "roleblocked" (not "jailed" but "roleblocked" <- there's a difference) if he targets them. <<-- If a town PR has this "item", it's not a good thing, and if scum has this item, they sure as hell aren't going to claim to have it. Also if scum have this item, it makes no sense to me that Zinger wouldn't win with town, because he'd be essentially working with town by permanently "roleblocking" scum.
Oh, and as a sidenote, meransiel is town, leon is still prob-town, and izak is still scum.
More later. A bit busy atm.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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@Zinger,
What happens if someone investigates your alignment? What would someone get if they rolecopped you? Do you find out if the person with the 'item' you want dies? Do you have any indication of whether that 'item' belongs to town/scum/other?
ftr, I'm not entirely sure it's worth lynching Zinger today.
I'd rather someone like izak goes.
Lynching Zinger is almost too easy.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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I think the major problem in this game right now is that people are not taking my advice from #430
izak is stil scum and people are ignoring this because zinger is derping all over the place.
thad wrote:I'll have to check on izak. Why him specifically?
Because I think he's scum and you haven't really mentioned him.
plj wrote:We believe Zinger should be the lynch for today for several reasons.
1. He has claimed third party, which is clearly anti-town and therefore he has no reason to help town.
2. His claimed ability of jailkeeping is bad for town. He is anti-town, and therefore his JK's will not be with the intention of helping the town. Our PRs may get blocked, and he has no reason to try to avoid blocking them because his only intention will be to fulfill his wincon.
3. His roleclaim does not make sense. He claims that the person he JK's that is his target will be roleblocked for the rest of the game, when he is supposedly a jailkeeper. Also, as has been mentioned, the chances of him completing his wincon are very slim if he is what he says he is.
1 and 2 aren't necessarily true. He does have a reason to help town (to avoid getting lynched or vigged) and his claimed ability isn't necessarily bad for town, if he's directed. Of course, it's impossible to tell (short of tracking him) whether he'd doing what we tell him to do, so it's not necessarily a good idea to keep him alive, but like... if I am mysteriously roleblocked tonight, I'm sure as hell going to be pushing for his lynch tomorrow, regardless of whether it was actually him that roleblocked me. It's actually in his best interests to work with town, because it doesn't really hinder his claimed win-con, and it means he's more likely to be kept alive.
Of course, that's assuming he's telling the truth about his role. Which I don't think he is. He's not scum, that much I'm confident about. If he is third party, I don't consider him a threat. There's the possibility he's town and this was some gambit he thought was a really smart idea, and considering it's Zinger, this is something I think is a very real possibility.
In any case, he is not a good lynch today.
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Oh, look...
#609
Durrr, ignore everything, argue with Zinger, hope everyone stops talking about me.
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Also re: MoI's view on the replacement issue, it's consistent with what I've seen MoI say before. He even linked games in which he used this tell as town, so like... Yeah.
I think Silver is town, just a bit overzealous.
On another note, I'm also fairly sure there's scum pushing this Zinger lynch. At least 2, probably 3 on the Zinger wagon right now. I'm not sure, need a votecount to see who's actually on the lynch.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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killerjester wrote:Thoughts now that you know he lied about his role
No different. He's either third party or town. Not worth killing today. I'd rather go after scum than worry about Zinger. Unless his win-con is surviving until D2 or something, he's insignificant.
votecount wrote:3isFrench, Izak, Pappum,Cherve
^2 scum there.-
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ZeL1nK
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ZeL1nK Goon
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No, it's very simple. Ignore him and start scum hunting.
Just pretend he's not even posting.
It's very easy, I have skimmed over his posts over recent pages because I know there isn't any important content in them. He's not scum. He's not a threat. I am very happy to ignore him and have him lurk all day - I really don't care.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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I've written two walls in the last 15 minutes, filled with explanations as to why I think he's probably town, but I've deleted them both because it's just me calling Zinger a dumbass over and over again. I can't actually figure out a way to explain it without insulting his intelligence multiple times during the course of the post.
But.... he's probably town. And he's a good vig shot, but really.... not worth wasting a D1 lynch on.
People just need to
IGNORE ZINGER
Stop reading his posts.
Get back to scum hunting and stop being lazy.
Just pretend he's not even there.
Unless you legitimately have a reason to suspect he's scum, and it's more substantial than "durrrrrrr he claimed third party", you should stop using him as an excuse to avoid doing anything meaningful today.
Come join me on this izak wagon. It has minigolf and cupcakes. Fun for everyone.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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Actually it is totally different, because being a SK is actually a believable role. Being a self-aligned Jailkeeper with a lyncher-esque win-con? Nope.
All of the reasoning for the Zinger lynch gets demolished by one simple fact: Zinger is a dumbass. He is so much more likely to do this as town than as any other alignment.
Which is why I think he should just be replaced or ignored until he gets replaced.-
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moi wrote:So you actually went and read up on Umbrage’s “Jungle Republic” and LMP’s “KGB Mafia”? Usually people don’t follow through when I give supporting games.
No. I played in one of them.
moi wrote:Explain your methodology and thought process that went into this. Is in more complicated than “Hey, I’m picking out slots 6 – 9 on the wagon”?
Based on my reads. I guess it's strangely ironic that their position on the wagon could also be considered scummy.
moi wrote:Did I just see a “Too Dumb for Scum” argument?
I guess you could call it something like that. I've already explained pretty fully why I don't see it coming from Zinger as scum, and Zinger admitting he's third party as third party is just so dumb that I'm willing to call it less likely than him thinking it's a smart thing to do as town.
Like it's 'dumb' play, regardless of alignment. I'm rationalising which alignment this dumb play is most likely to come from.
moi wrote:I've come to the conclusion that it is unlikely as heck that both are Town.
Based on...?-
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ZeL1nK
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Rodion wrote:ZeL1nK wrote:But.... he's probably town. And he's a good vig shot
Can you explain those 2 different thoughts?
I personally think he's more than likely town. His play/claim doesn't make sense as scum, and it doesn't make sense as third party, either. More than likely this was some fail gambit as town.
If it came down to a choice between lynching him and vigging him, I'd rather try and lynch someone I think is scum and vig Zinger so people shut up about him.
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I'm find it quite funny just how many people are saying "I think izak is scummy................ BUT I am not unvoting Zinger because he claimed Third Party"
Here's the thing. Zinger probably is telling the truth now. He probably is town, and this was probably some fail gambit or something that completely backfired. He's most likely not scum, and the chance that he's actually third party and unnecessarily did all this D1 is also very, very small.
If you're going to vote for Zinger, tell me which part of this line of thinking you disagree with and why. If you're just going to repeat "he claimed Third Party" over and over, ad nauseum, then this discussion goes nowhere. I also don't want to hear any more about how "stupid" it was for him to do; it was stupid to do asany alignment, and being stupid isn't a tell of any sort.
People just need to go back to actually scum hunting.
Also, izak needs more pressure.
btw, the thing with izak's ISO is that you don't really get a good grasp of why he's scummy just from going through it. Fact is, he's been ignoring a large majority of the game while doing very little scum hunting and picking and choosing easy things to respond to (sort of similar to active lurking).
killer wrote:Overall, I got the feeling izak'snoooooottttt reallytrying to scumhunt.
QFT
zinger wrote:As for my full claim: I am what I said, a regular town jailkeeper.
OK.
Cool.
So, you gonna do anything or just complain about egos all game?-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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I'm not suggesting keeping Zinger alive for the whole game, so I don't see that as a reasonable objection.
What I'm suggesting is to hunt scum today, go after Zinger at a later stage if he's still around and people still consider him possible third party/scum.
He dies at some point in this game. Doing this as scum is suicidal, and this whole thing being a gambit by Zinger-scum is simply not a possibility, as far as I'm concerned. Doing this as third party is also very unlikely because it simply doesn't benefit his win con.
On the other hand, Icansee possible reasons he'd think it was a good idea as town. For example, it could have been a reaction-fishing gambit. It could have been a gambit to make himself look like he wasn't a threat to scum. etc etc.
This is the kind of gambit that just doesn't come from VI-scum or VI-third-party, but could come from VI-town.
In any case, even if you completely disagree with everything I've said, do you think Zinger is a threat? He's going to die, one way or another, at some point in this game. Would it not be beneficial to hunt for people more likely to be scum in the mean time?-
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vollkan wrote:Tell me, Zel1nk, what would Zinger need to do to make you support lynching him?
Depends on lynches and night actions.
vollkan wrote:I completely understand giving VIs a high level of tolerance. But, for example, if Vezok did the same thing that Zinger did, I'd lynch Vezok in a heartbeat.
I'd probably agree with this, but my read here is subjective and applies only to Zinger. If anyone else did something similar in this game, I'd want them lynched.
vollkan wrote:Also, you ignore the prospect that this is actually a gambit from zinger-scum
I'm willing to ignore that prospect for now because, like I said, he dies at some point, and if he is scum, he's not a threat.
Tell me what you think you'll learn from today if he flips town.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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What, you mean like the game where he won me the game when I was scum? I may or may not have briefly skimmed that one.
I've also read a newbie game of his where he self-hammered as town on D2 because he was upset (yes, he got upset that people were voting for him, so he self-voted), which led to LyLo, which led to a scum win.
I think my grounds for believing he's a VI are fairly well substantiated.
And this is exactly the type of gambit I could see him thinking is a good idea as town.-
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mer wrote:Also, Zel1nk, if you want izak dead that badly, vig him. I actually think that is a VERY good idea.
There are two reasons I'd rather not do this:
1) I don't get to properly analyse connections like I would in running izak up for a lynch
2) There are a variety of possible ways any attempted kill on izak could be prevented
It's much more efficient and beneficial to lynch him.-
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thad wrote:Had a look at izak. He hasn't really contributed much but he has said who he thinks are scum and who he thinks are town a few times. He seems ok so far.
zinger wrote:@ZeL1nK, can you sum up why this Izak character is scummy? I am looking at his ISO now and nothing is catching my eye.
When I initially developed a scum read on him, it was after his comment about vollkan's style of scum hunting, which started setting off alarms. I found it quite funny that he was criticising someone's method of scum hunting when he had doneabsolutely no scum hunting himself. At the time, he had his vote on Vifam because "But Vifam really sticks out like a sore thumb here, and is still a few votes off of lynching". No reasoning as to why he found Vifam suspicious, just that Vifam stuck out like a sore thumb. Vote stays on Vifam for the rest of the early game while making a few comments here and there.
My major problem with izak is something you can't catch from skimming through his ISO because you're not looking at his posts contextually. He ignores a lot of the things that are happening in this game, and comments only on the popular bandwagons (Vifam first, Meransiel second, Zinger third). For example, all of his posts where he talks about Zinger after he votes for him are posts in which he's ignoring a large amount of discussion that's going on in the game, ignoring people's suspicions of him, etc.
mer wrote:Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role.
Er, yes it can. It's probably rarer, but I've seen it before.
davidx wrote:It could be a cover for a standard Roleblocker
Not really likely, considering Zinger knows the last game Jason ran had both a mafia roleblocker and a town jailer, I doubt he'd use jailer as a fakeclaim. I doubt he'd even get into the position where he'd need to use it as a fakeclaim unnecessarily, as well.-
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Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. But this discussion is pretty much irrelevant and should be dropped.
@vollkan,
vollkan wrote:My point is that the role he claimed first up was an anti-town role.
Is the fact that he didn't know it was 'anti-town' a moot point for you?
Consider this for a moment, as crazy as it may be... He is town, and claimed a third party role that he thought was neutral (not anti-town), as a gambit of sorts (to avoid NKs).
IMO, ^ that description of what happened makes the most sense. Do you really think it's more likely he actually is third party or scum? Like, I suppose it's possible he's scum and he did it to look like town gambiting, but that's an overly complex explanation with pretty severe repercussions if he didn't pull it off (and, IMO, it's not something Zinger would think to do as scum, anyway).-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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Well I can just say it. I did, too. It was very easy.
There's a pretty strong case against you, too, but most people are ignoring it because you claimed tracker. What's your point?
Are you saying I haven't explained why I think Zinger is town? Or are you asking me to explain the other two?
I'm more interested in why peoplearen'treading them as town. DavidX votes I could maybe understand, but Silver hasn't really done much to warrant the votes IMO. I've played with the cj head of silver a few times, and he has a tendency to make really scummy posts, regardless of alignment. The silver head, on the other hand, reads pretty strongly as town.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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@davidx
Well, I don't actually agree with the points raised against you, but you make a lot of comments that are just bad in general.
For example, off the top of my head, one of the things the bugs me about you is your insistence that MoI reveals the identities of the neighbours. I also recall there being a few inconsistencies in things you've said. And you post a lot more IIoA/defending yourself than actually scum hunting.
Like I could go into more detail if I went through your ISO and picked out everything that could be called "scummy" in some way, but that's a frivolous exercise because I think you're town.
@junpei,
If I hadn't seen a game of yours in which you've played like this as town, I'd assume you're scum, independent of Vifam's idiocy. Your push on Zinger looks really, really scummy and your lack of scum hunting in general while pushing Zinger makes it worse.
Every post you've made is Zinger this, Zinger that. What are you going to do if Zinger is town?-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK Goon
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rod wrote:Question for Zelink: you mentioned there are nuances in Leon's posts that carry town vibes. Can you elaborate on that?
Dude, I said that like 30 pages ago. Literally. I can't remember what I was referring to specifically, but I'd assume it had to do with the way his posts were phrased and the intonation I was reading in them. I'll go back and look at it if it's necessary, but considering he's not up for lynching today, it's not a priority. I also haven't been paying much attention to Leon in the past 30 pages.
davidx wrote:There was no justification for a gambit though. His is/was a role that would have gone pretty much undetected for a lengthy period of time if played properly, so trying to endear himself to Scum was by no means a justifyable move, either for a Town or Third Party. As Third Party, he reveals he's third party and negative to both sides, as Town, he reveals he's a PR to Scum, and hands them the opportunity to get rid of one of three PRs of their choice.. it's simply not logical and fuels my suspicion of him as Scum. It's the only side I can potentially see benefitting if this "gambit" worked..
Nah , it was a gambit. It just wasn't very well thought out.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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ZeL1nK
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ZeL1nK Goon
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thad wrote:Why, in your opinion, is silver a townie?
- He soft-claimed vanilla on the last page. And it was a genuine softclaim, not an I'm-scum-gambiting-so-maybe-people-will-think-I'm-town softclaim
- The self-confidence displayed in his push on Pine. My opinion on why this makes him look town is because I'm of the opinion that all of the main wagons are town wagons, and he hasn't taken the opportunity to move to any of them. Instead, arrogantly pushes the Pine wagon with posts like #435 and #503 (also the part directed at "Rest of Town" reads as town, too).
^ This point is what most strongly cements him as town in my mind.
- I've liked the way he's explained himself. The silver head, at least, has been consistent and I'm following his explanations, even if I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions. Plus the frustration he's displayed looks genuine.
- Most of the flak he's copped has been because of the disruption caused from the differences in opinions between the heads. I have a totally different view on this compared to MoI's view on hydra dissonance. This kind of dissonance isn't "I'm changing my reads so I don't look scummy", it's "My other head is a massive dick and doesn't agree with me". While that's not townish, it's not something I consider scummy. The only other major issue I've seen with silver is his reads list, and I really don't even know why that's an issue.
Why, in your opinion, is silver scum?-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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junpei wrote:In this post ZeL1nK says that he thinks my Zinger lynch is scummy. However this is odd because I did so with a ton of self confidence.
*snip*
Now it's a town tell to push hard on a wagon? You even say arrogantly so even if you don't agree with my logic it should still be a town tell for you.
What are you, a moron?
The key here is that you're pushing an obvious mislynch and Silver hasn't shown any indicationt that he'd be willing to vote for any of the main wagons.
Here, I'll bold the key point because you seem to have overlooked why I consider his arrogance a town tell.
I wrote:My opinion on why this makes him look town is because I'm of the opinion that all of the main wagons are town wagons, and he hasn't taken the opportunity to move to any of them
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Junpei wrote:Which brings me to the second thing he is trying to do, which is form the identity that he is the defender of the two wagons, Silver and Zinger. Most likely so that he doesn't have to choose sides.
Actually, 3 wagons. I also think DavidX is town.
And yeah, I'm not going to be on any of those wagons today unless they start spewing what I consider scum tells.
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thad wrote:- was very wishy-washy regarding vifam. Uses phrases like "odd" and "I don't know what to think". Also the heads don't seem to agree about vifam
The Vifam thing came from cjdrum, and that's standard play from what I've seen of cjdrum. Probably more likely to come from cj-town, if anything - I'm more inclined to believe cj-scum wouldn't say something like "I don't know what to think".
As for the difference in opinions of the head, why do you think this is scummy rather than a case of heads not co-operating. It seems like they're having issues with being a hydra. Unless you think that in itself is scummy (and I'd like to know why if you do), I don't see how you can use this as a reason for suspecting silver. :/
thad wrote:- accusing moi of cheating during their argument
Just verifying, this is something you think is scummy? Or more likely to come from scum than town?
thad wrote:Could there be a softer target?
Well, Zinger for one. DavidX seems to be a fairly soft target as well.
plj wrote:We don't believe that Junpei's habitual extreme and disproportionate self-assurance is in any way a scumtell. We think he genuinely believes he's smarter than everyone else.
I assume this is due to modding experience with him? I can agree with this statement. Like I said previously, if I hadn't seem him act this way as town before, I'd think he's scum.-
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ZeL1nK Goon
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