Mafia Invictus ~ Game Over!

[Tarhalindur]

Something is amiss with SpyreX - that hydra logic is REALLY weird coming from him (you know exactly what I'm talking about, Spy). Problem is, I'm not sure which one is town-SpyreX. I'll figure it out later. For now, this should suffice:

Vote: SpyreX

---

Rulez is off. Fate - I'd join the Fate hate if there wasn't this juicy SpyreX who needs my semirandom vote.

DGB is town. Like, REALLY town. Helps that she's incredibly easy to read if you know what to look for. (And after playing so many games with her I know what to look for.)

[Tarhalindur]

Also, to my doppelganger:

I know you're out there. I will find you. And I will hang you.

To Vi: Mind Screw V heh heh heh.

[Tarhalindur]

Why is the hydra logic really weird? I hate most hydras with a passion. It started out as a distaste, and has moved to sheer raw hatred. While SOME are not made from the raw hatepool that doesn't change the fact of hatred being hatred.

Considering he's the only one who said something sans senor slappywag I'm not sure what you're lookin for here.

Link to past games/post indicating this, please.

[Tarhalindur]

WAIT WHAT? I LEAVE THE THREAD FOR A FEW HOURS AND THEN WHAAAT?

SPEEDLYNCH IN RANDOM STAGE. WITHOUT EVEN A CLAIM. I DON'T CARE THAT SPYREX WAS THE SCUMMIEST PLAYER IN THE GAME (THOUGH THAT'S NOT SAYING MUCH IN LATE RVS), THAT'S JUST NOT KOSHER.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?! I MEAN SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK?

(Wow, this stupidity has reduced me to allcaps. That doesn't happen.)

---

I fail to see how silavor can POSSIBLY be town at this point.

[Tarhalindur]

For those who seem to think that my last post yesterday was fake - that SpyreX hammer was stupid as shit and I was replying at some ungodly early hour in the morning which is effectively a Rule 12 violation except with lack of sleep standing in for drunkenness. Any more questions?

---

Now I was lyin in bed thinkin


"What the fuck why did Khan vig Hindu"

And I was realizing

If we all troll randomly with fuckin reads, we are POTENTIALLY giving scum two kills a night. This will DESTROY us as town, because scum will ALWAYS win if they can kill off competent players (Khan) faster than we can kill off weak/scummier players.

SO I PROPOSE:

An invictus VC. We all vote with

Invictus: [Name]

Whoever is invictus hammered:

Every townie with that ability will choose that target at night, ergo no matter who scum kill that person will die.

Aka INSTEAD of giving scum a potential doublekill, we get a double LYNCH over everyone and their moms random ass scumread (which will probably only hit scum a good 25-30% of the time), I rather have POLICY VIGS instead.

Possible. Has pros and cons - for example:

Pro: Prevents bodyguarded players from dying to a stray Invictus shot (for example, I'll be very surprised if Hinduragi was actually Khan's Invictus target rather than shielding Khan's Invictus target).
Con: Vi tends to follow certain tenets of the Tarhalindur school of modding. As such, I'd be very VERY surprised if the inevitable Tarhalindur over Mafia role in this game ISN'T an Invictus punisher.

Show me a Tarhalindur over Mafia flip and I'll support Invictus vote wholeheartedly. Until then... well, it doesn't matter today actually, because there's only one good Invictus target right now in this whole game so there's not much downside. But I'll definitely need to double-check Invictus voting tomorrow.

Invictus: Silavor

---

Because scumvor is so stupid he would go out of his way to draw attention to himself by hammering.

Right. Ok then. You keep thinking that.

WIFOM

Doesn't matter though, you're made to be Invictused not lynched, unlike the NEXT player on the list of scummy scummy scumbags:

VOTE: silavor

terrible hammer reeks of opportunism

I'm certain all townspeople have an Invictus kill.

The reasoning is mediocre (completely valid and thus a great reason for scum to get on silavor). The speculation is very, very bad indeed - and since we KNOW there's no daytalking scumbags in this game (barring obvious wild card)*, it's also very probably alerting his buddies to something he's figured out. Most importantly, gut is SCREAMING that this post does not come from town.

* - Yes, that reminder is for you DGB, I still haven't forgotten Medieval.

Are we really letting the scum know when they can get two townies for the price of one with the NK, while avoiding being invictus'ed themselves?

What if scum are invictused?

actually, I think all players with the invictus ability should claim. does everyone agree?

Uh, you see that con I mentioned above?

Oh right, you didn't NEED to see that con I mentioned above. Because you're scum and already know about it.

Vote: Quilford

[Tarhalindur]

*skims*

that SpyreX hammer was stupid as shit

Invictus (aka not vote) Silavor

TROLOL

Silavor is bad, Quilford is WORSE. How the hell THAT happened I have no idea, but it's the truth.

Oh right, has everything to do with Quilford pushing an anti-town play (Invictus claim, stating that he thinks all townies have Invictus).

[Tarhalindur]

We KNOW there's no day talk do we?

HMMMMMM?

Quilford is town

That's what Vi's second? post says (the one where all the abilities are listed), unless I'm much mistaken.

[Tarhalindur]

Silavor is bad, Quilford is WORSE. How the hell THAT happened I have no idea, but it's the truth.

Oh right, has everything to do with Quilford pushing an anti-town play (Invictus claim, stating that he thinks all townies have Invictus).

You're an idiot.

I think all townies have invictus because all townies have flipped with invictus, I have invictus and the sample PM has invictus.

So, you think that you've pieced together something about the setup. Something that scum might not figure out given your stated belief that your deduction applies only to town players.

Why the HELL would you comment on that deduction in thread rather than try to wait a little longer to see if you could bait out bad claims from scum?

I'd be more understanding if you'd proposed the massclaim BEFORE stating your deduction - but that's not what you did.

Let's just shut the fuck up with that line of speculating, ok?

Ok.

This.

[Tarhalindur]

We KNOW there's no day talk do we?

HMMMMMM?

Quilford is town

That's what Vi's second? post says (the one where all the abilities are listed), unless I'm much mistaken.

FUUUUUUUUU-

Okay, mixing up the factional kill and faction talk abilities is a good idea, I DON'T THINK.

Derp.

Point against Quilford retracted. Still leaves the point about Quilford stating a belief about the setup BEFORE asking for massclaim.

----

After further thought about Invictus votes and the likely nature of the punisher, I

DO NOT

support further Invictus voting. We're probably dealing with either an Invictus Death Note or some kind of protective role (full Doctor, Illusionist, etc.) - something that screws over claiming Invictus targets, at any rate, since that fits WWTD (What Would Tarhalindur Do?).

Unvote, Vote: silavor

in light of this and my derp mentioned above.

HoS: Quilford

for reasons I laid out back in post 255.

Also, one other question in need of an answer: Quilford, why do you think that (at least some) scum don't have Invictus?

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Once whoever is Tarhalindur over Mafia goes down, I'll go back to supporting Invictus votes.

[Tarhalindur]

BabySpice: Check my last post, I misread the list of abilities. Herp derp.

---

You know, after reading a bunch of games where MoI was town I was starting to wonder what his scum game looked like.

Now I know. (The difference is ALL in the tone. He's like DGB that way.)

So, do we go after the obvious obvious scumbag or the player who did something horribly horribly antitown who shouldn't be ignored? Leaning lynch the first, try to invict the latter, but I'm not sure.

Also, Quilford: You still have questions to answer when you get back on.

UnHoS, FoS: Quilford
HoS: MoI

, will upgrade to a vote if we don't lynch silavor

(Policy is to not keep two HoS'es at a time.)

[Tarhalindur]

Why the HELL would you comment on that deduction in thread rather than try to wait a little longer to see if you could bait out bad claims from scum?

Because I tend to not look before I leap. It's why I'm generally terrible at scum.

Cool.

Quilford, why do you think that (at least some) scum don't have Invictus?

Don't remember saying this.

Was implied by "all townies have X" (and a check on my running theory that EVERYONE has X).

My plan in DEFCON to was to create as much WIFOM as possible and to screw around, because I was basically dead to rights. It was not for town cred, because how COULD it be since a that couldn't even be determined unless the plan worked?

My "plan" here was an idea that I came up with as to PREVENT a repeat of last night (a scum double kill), and since I came up with it myself I highly DOUBT that the Tar mechanic this game just so HAPPENS to be some weird shit involving predicting Invictus targets, because I MYSELF am Town.

Hey, in a game where Invictus appears to be the primary theme it falls firmly into WWTD? And that metric usually works on those in the Tar school of modding.

And yes, I'll go for a MoI lynch ALL DAY ANY DAY.

Well then, I say we prioritize definite scum over "horribly antitown, vig the fuck out of him, not 100% sure he's actually scum", shall we?

Unvote, Vote: MoI

[Tarhalindur]

Notice the tone similarities? Asshole MoI=Scum MoI. But not just regualr asshole, over the top fake it till you make it bash it in your face asshole. Like this game with the "I caught all the scum you fucks lets go"

THIS. THIS IS THE TONE I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

(DGB does it too, to such an extent that her lack of it this game is a very strong town tell.)

So you think a Tar out there, (and if its anyone its Me so when I flip town that shit better STOP being speculated), that has some win con tied to: "YOU MUST PREDICT WHO WILL GET INVICTED TROLOKLOLOLOL IF YOU GUESS RIGHT YOU WIN THE LOTTERY!?!??"

No.... but hypothetically if I was on the street watching this game play out I might think the tar role was like an invictus proof, or perhaps an invictus switcher, or something silly like that.

Okay, let's lay out some things about whoever my doppelganger is.

He's going to have something to do with Invictus, because it appears to be the central mechanic. Vi is known to use punishers, and known info makes that extremely likely here. Punishers always stop an action that is particularly problematic (my versions typically punish claiming in some way, as scum have a somewhat harder time claiming true to flavor than town does); in this game, the most likely candidate is the exact action we are trying to do (invictus as second lynch, on grounds that second lynch inherently favors town).

He's not going to be Invictus-proof. That's not a punisher - hell, it doesn't even protect the rest of the scum team.

He's NOT going to involve redirecting a target player's Invictus. That's not a punisher, that's just a free way for scum to get two kills per night at the cost of an activated ability.

In fact, it's not going to be an action that affects a single target's Invictus, because a) that's not a punisher (it doesn't stop the most likely game breaking scenarios from Invictus) and b) pretty much every such role I can think of would either be underpowered or overpowered depending on interaction with the Mafia kill. The only exception would be something that equalizes the effective double lynch (i.e, Invictus Death Note, which is probably the most elegant version if Vi was trying to stop mass Invictus claim).

The alternative is a role that affects Invictus actions targeting a player; these screw with Invictus plans while also giving scum some utility if no Invictus plan appears. The most likely version is some kind of Invictus-only protection (or Illusionist [terminology is of my recent invention - a discarded role from a setup of mine], which in this case would redirect secondary kills targeting a player to a second player).

Silavor is townier than shit.
Like, holy FUCK is he town.

Tar's reaction is bad.. Tell me, do you really think that scum are that ballsy to quicklynch on page 5? I mean, sure, it was a stupid and foolish move, but the whole hesitation then quicklynch told me he thought about it enough to know that it would be suicide as scum. The whole "I don't see town ever doing that" is what scum say when they're lynching town.

Them's WIFOM logic there.

Also eventually people are going to figure out that early morning + Tar after getting really pissed off about total stupidity = WHAT THE FUCK reaction.

[Tarhalindur]

This is close enough to day one. That spy lynch was funny, but not satisfying. I want the blood of scum, and I want it now.

So do I.

That's why we're lynching MoI.

[Tarhalindur]

I don't have time right now to cover everything MoI is saying, but I sure as hell have time to cover this:

I'm just going to say this -

If you (and this is to EVERYONE) who is Town and aren't voting obv-Scum Silavor (who is still keeping a low profile hoping his lynch blows over today) in favor of LOLWIFOM you are doing it wrong. Just like yesterday when some of you lynched Spyrex.

I know this kind of reaction.

This is the kind of defense you see from scum who've been cornered by a case they think is utter crap. It's just like when The Fonz got lynched back in Stargate SG-1 as SK due to perceived connections to revealed scum.

In fact, it's more than that. MoI just let it be known that he feels ENTITLED to not be the lynch today because silavor is the DESIGNATED lynch today. Look at the last part of that first sentence. It's not "because he's scummier than I am", it's "because that's what you're supposed to do". Then MoI brings up SpyreX from yesterday to try to frighten players out of his lynch. Not convince.

Frighten.

I repeat: This is NOT town defense. And the posts I don't have time to cover right now aren't any better.

MoI: Claim or die.

[Tarhalindur]

Can we skip the scum fakeclaim and let him jsut die?

No - that would be a waste of perfectly good information about scum thoughts on the setup.

[Tarhalindur]

See sig. I'll do my best to post at least once a day, though.

[Tarhalindur]

SPAM!

MoI

, you can't be so dead on KK's scum list.

And question dance's death.

And not look at who he thought was scum.

It was you alone chief... And gamma?? GAMMA?? U kidding me?!?!?

Its GUT!

He's some kscope/elmo/combo or suck.

Maybe scum are killing for alternative reasons.. U KNO EM?

Cuz I do. Its damn obvious.

*****The second NK worked the way we wanted it.

Todays gonna require a tougher look.

At emphasized: Oh really now?

---

Busy rereading (a bit behind), so let's get this up so I can finish rereading, write stuff up, and generally go medieval on everyone's ass:
- MoI is still scum, and I need to finish up my case on him (or rather, a list of notable MoI games*, some example posts, and a large helping of gut). Which will have to wait until tomorrow in RL, since I'm rather tired right now, but it WILL be done. Only thing: Gut would rather Invictus him than lynch him.
- This game wasn't making sense until a) I reread where Gamma replaced Quilford and b) I realized that Gamma's player slot is probably Tarhalindur over Mafia given the push for Invictus claim yesterday (and the fact that I bought a scum defense AGAIN >.<). Also, I'm almost certain the push for "Quilford is obviously town" early D2 has at least one and probably two scumbags on it. What's more, take a good look at the MoI/Gamma interactions; intuition is SCREAMING that they're scumbuddies who started distancing lately.
- Benmage was really, really scum even before he made that post I quoted above.
- Fourth and presumably final scum is probably Duplicity.

* - unfortunately, the two games that best show that MoI is off here happen to be continuing.

- DGB is still town, but is playing like D3 of Medieval rather than D1. Shape up there DGB!
- Ban is really, really town.
- Gut, despite weak play, is probably town.

- VitR is hovering near the edge of my scumdar.

- BabySpice dying removes a LOT of my objections to using Invictus as second lynch. I'll support today.

Vote: MoI

Invictus: Gammagooey

(Don't really care about the order, I'll lynch/invictus anywhere in the four players listed above.)

[Tarhalindur]

Fate and Gamma are still town as fuck, I don't understand their paranoia of each other at all though it's probably due to some previous incident. That said both of them need to keep the bickering out of this fucking thread, the "You're annoying me so I want to replace out!" was a bitch to read through, it really was and it's just letting mafia have a place to hide.

Getting strong town vibes from Post #674 by Benmage however it's lacking mention of which votes he believes are opportunistic or bussing scum and which are misdirected town which is something I want him to go into in his next few posts. I'm starting to see where Shifts town-read on Ban is coming from, his tone and attitude in his posts today scream town however his push towards VitamiR someone unlikely to be lynched or considered to be lynched today reads as slightly odd. I have a gut town read on VitamiR which reading back I cannot work out what it was caused by but his tone in his argument with Ban reads as town on town.

I honestly haven't seen much of Nautiulus during my read through so I'll make time tommorow to read through their posts however at the moment they're hovering between weak town, null and weak scum. Tarhalindurs invicitus vote on Gamma and refusal to elaborate into why he believes that Quilfords slot is scum despite overwhelming evidence of Quilford being town shoots up red flags everywhere and I'll make sure to allocate time to read into him as well.

Tldr:

Town:

Fate, Gamma, Ban, Benmage, VitamR, MoI

Null:

DGB, Nautiullus, Zach

Scum:

Tarh, The Illu, Gut.

This post is a scumclaim.

Let's break it down, folks.

Fate and Gamma are still town as fuck, I don't understand their paranoia of each other at all though it's probably due to some previous incident. That said both of them need to keep the bickering out of this fucking thread, the "You're annoying me so I want to replace out!" was a bitch to read through, it really was and it's just letting mafia have a place to hide.

So, reading a fight as town-on-town isn't a scumtell. Putting Gamma instead of MoI (the person who actually did request replacement), however...

Also, that reminds me: DGB, Fate/MoI is reminding me strongly of you/TSQ in Medieval. Your thoughts on the subject, please?

Getting strong town vibes from Post #674 by Benmage however it's lacking mention of which votes he believes are opportunistic or bussing scum and which are misdirected town which is something I want him to go into in his next few posts.

Town vibes with caveats? Yeah no. That's scumbuddy interaction, right there. CLASSIC scumbuddy interaction. Why ask for the kind of clarification that is indicative of suspicion on a player he claims to get strong town vibes from? Because he's trying to make a buddy look good while simultaneously distancing himself. In other words, he's keeping his options open.

I've SEEN this before. Random Mafia 3. Nailed two scumbags for it there, and I'm pretty sure I've done the same here.

I'm starting to see where Shifts town-read on Ban is coming from, his tone and attitude in his posts today scream town however his push towards VitamiR someone unlikely to be lynched or considered to be lynched today reads as slightly odd.

See the wishy-washy here? Once again, it's town read plus caveats.

Also note the attempt to portray a VitR lynch as impossible.

Note to self: MoI might be town after all.

Tarhalindurs invicitus vote on Gamma and refusal to elaborate into why he believes that Quilfords slot is scum despite overwhelming evidence of Quilford being town shoots up red flags everywhere and I'll make sure to allocate time to read into him as well.

Really now? "Overwhelming evidence"? All I've seen is a belief that Quilford/Gamma can't be scum because Kublai Khan was threatening him with Invictus (which I find unpersuasive, since there are several roles scum could have (bulletproof, doctor, possibly Tarhalindur over Mafia) that could have given scum enough confidence to go after KK. In fact, I find that argument the OPPOSITE of persuasive, since KK (a strong player) suspecting Quilford would explain why scum went for Quilford over, say, DGB or Fate N1.

The rest of this supposed "overwhelming evidence of Quilford being town" is a bunch of players just saying that Quilford's slot is town with no other reason provided - and I don't think it's a coincidence that I'm pretty sure at least half of them are scum. I'm of the strong belief that the "Quilford must be town" meme was manufactured by scum - and specifically YOU - D2 and has been bought hook, line, and sinker by an unsuspecting town.

There ARE, however, two good reasons to think that Quilford's slot is scum. The first is that Quilford asked for a mass Invictus claim in such a godawful manner D2. The second is that I noticed it, called him scum based off it, then backed off over a reasonable-looking explanation... then I noticed it when rereading and remembered that I do that to a player EVERY DAMN GAME and that player ALWAYS flips scum. ALWAYS.

There's also another good point against YOU here - that "shoots up red flags everywhere"? CLASSIC scum rhetorical trick.

---

whaaaat Tar if I'm really secretly YOU then I should obviously be lynched instead of waiting around and letting me have any more night actions. Don't go saying craazy stuff like that if you're not gonna have the balls to follow through on it.

If it wasn't for that nice juicy MoI wagon I'd be voting you right now. As it is, I'm using that Invictus vote as a HoS.

Though really, right now as long as one of {Gamma, Benmage, Duplicity, MoI} is lynched today I don't particularly care which one. You're all scum.

Also, you know what? I'm going to turn this around on you. You're one of several players who has been yamming for a while about me looking scummy but not doing anything.

I'm calling your bluff. Put up or shut up. And by put up I mean vote, since you absolutely should not be Invictusing me.

---

At emphasized: Oh really now?

- Benmage was really, really scum even before he made that post I quoted above.

-U dont see it?

-Do explain.

- No, I think that the reason that you know the scum is because you were told their names in your role PM.
- I was rereading the thread and noticed you standing off to the side for basically the entire thread. That's a really good place to find scum these days. Not to mention that you're one of the lead proponents of the "KK was going to Invictus Quilford so Quilford's slot must be town", which is still BS and scum-driven logic.

- BabySpice dying removes a LOT of my objections to using Invictus as second lynch. I'll support today.

I thought your objections were mod related.....

I also expected a strong player to die tonight from Invictus instead of Baby Spice. This did not happen. That removes a lot of my objections - if scum have a punisher, they aren't using it yet. The remaining reasons ARE the mod-related ones.

Hmm.
Hey Tar I'm assuming you voting for an invictus-double-lynch means you think that there isn't any invictus manipulation correct?

No, it means that scum aren't using their invictus manipulation right now. Nice attempt to lock in "nothing can go wrong with Invictus double-lynch" there.

There is a considerable lack of a read on me in Tar's latest post

I thought my "would die for Fate, he's obviously town" read was fairly obvious.

---

I'm interested in seeing how tar is going to pull his pants back up, but alas that'll wait for tomorrow.

See, if your team is smart I won't even be alive tomorrow. You're not getting a mislynch on me.

---

The current Gut wagon is bad and you should feel bad. Except a bunch of players don't, because they're scum and counterwagoning MoI.

Seriously. Gamma, MoI, Benmage, Duplicity. That's your scumteam.

[Tarhalindur]

DGB look at the first post.
Then back at me.
Then at the first post.
Then back at me.

Besides Vi doesn't put jesters in games. Go look up its thoughts on the subject.

AND TAR SHOWED UP. And wants me to vote him! And I will be happy to oblige.

Vote: Tarhalindur

Now would you like why I think you're scum or would you prefer me to just stay quiet and bug other people for a while.

Illuminati can I get something interesting from you? I collect odd reads and reasonings for my secret jar in the fridge.

Nononono. I want you to KEEP voting me (bad reasons are preferred but not necessary). So that it's BLOODY OBVIOUS FROM MY DEATH FLIP that you are actually scum.

To all players: I've gotten so fucking pissed at the sheer stupidity I've seen from players in this game who I think are town (TWO STRAIGHT DAYS WITH A QUICKHAMMER WITHOUT A CLAIM, TWO STRAIGHT DAYS THAT THE MOI WAGON HAS BEEN STALLED IN FAVOR OF A COUNTERWAGON ON TOWN) that I'm going to drop an ultimatum. FOLLOW ME OR LYNCH ME. There is no middle ground.

I'll even go ahead and claim now, since it should explain a fair bit of my play (and I'm not worried about getting myself NKed considering that's what I'm trying to get anyways):

Bodyguard/Invictus

(same combo as Hinduragi). Yeah. I've been playing suicidal-Tar (baiting NKs be they scum or vig) because I'm REALLY not supposed to be alive so far into the game. What kind of scumbag kills danceHello (a mislynch candidate) over obvtown, I ask you?

By the way guyz: Reminder why Gamma/Quilly is at worst 3rd party.

[quote="Kublai Khan]

WHY ARE YOU SCUM

Gonna go ahead and Invictus you now. KTHKBYE

[/quote]

BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.

I JUST FUCKING EXPLAINED WHY THIS DOESN'T CLEAR QUILFORD'S PLAYER SLOT AND YOU STILL TROT OUT THIS TIRED REASONING?

SERIOUSLY?

ARE YOU

TRYING

TO CONVINCE ME THAT YOU ARE SCUM? I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE GIVEN THE OTHER LOLSCUMBAGS IN THE GAME, BUT...

[Tarhalindur]

How can I get that Illuminati head roll?

You can remember Medieval Mafia (coughscotmanycough), shape up, and get to lynching the four candidates I laid out above, that's what you can do.

[Tarhalindur]

This will take more than a phone to answer.

Tar, gamma is town because KK said in thread he was invictus-ing Gamma..... KK flipped town. Scum had no way to tell KK was lying therefore they went with the safest logical way to elude invictus and shot KK.... its so simple I am dumbfounded by you're logic.

Yeah, no. It's not as simple as you're trying to portray it, Mr. Going-to-Hang-For-This-Post. As far as I'm concerned, this is effectively circular logic, and boils down to "Quilford is town because scum shot KK to bonus-kill Quilford who is town". This is admittedly a possible explanation for the KK kill. It is NOT, however, the only possible explanation.

Let's take a look at the counterfactual to your claim. Assume Quilford is scum. Why might scum have killed KK despite his claim that he was invictusing a scum? Two immediate possible answers come to mind. First, from what I've seen KK is a strong player and good analyst, the sort of player that scum LOVE to kill (note that if a weak player had been killed N1 instead of Kublai I would be much more willing to accept the "scum trying for bonus kill" theory). Second, KK was openly suspicious of Quilford, who by the assumptions of this counterfactual is scum - silencing players who are suspicious of your faction via NK is an old and effective target (Xyl's Most Cunning Manipulation in MS3 is a shining example). A kill for these reason looks very, very plausible, so the implication that KK *must* have been killed to double-kill Quilford does not hold water.

The only restriction to this counterfactual is that scum must have been willing to risk an Invictus shot on one of their own members. Such risk makes sense only in one of three scenarios:
1) Quilford/Gamma slot has one or more bulletproof shields, allowing the scum to take out a player who might lynch one of their own without a significant risk of killing him.
2) Scum have a doctor who protected Quilford/Gamma N1.
3) A Tarhalindur over Mafia ability affected KK's Invictus.

Note that even if we assume that Hinduragi bodyguarded Quilford (which is likely, since the only other alternative is a Tarhalindur invictus redirector) both scenario 1 and scenario 2 are plausible, since Bodyguard resolves before other protective abilities (so Hinduragi's ability would have taken precedence). In fact, I'd guess that one of these scenarios is LIKELY - I'd be surprised if scum don't have some form of kill-stopping ability.

Given this, the final question is, is there any benefit to scum for killing a player who had declared an Invictus on scum over a player with a random Invictus target? I'd say yes - by targeting a player whose Invictus target is known and whom the scum could guarantee was protected from a kill, the scum could prevent an unprotected member of their faction randomly dying to an unknown Invictus.

So, from what I can see there's a pretty clear possible scum motivation for killing Kublai Khan despite his Invictus being on Quilford/Gamma. That means that the "Quilford must be town because KK kill" argument is unpersuasive and I will continue to judge Gamma by his slot's play - which is godawful. If it wasn't for me not wanting to see the MoI wagon derail for the second straight day, I'd be voting him right now. Or you. I'm really not picky at this point, so long as nobody outside the four scumbags I've caught is lynched.

---

On a related note, what do all the people that keep ragging on me for my "WTF" reaction to the SpyreX hammer have to say about this?

Dance's joke makes me think he thought this wasn't going through so we'll give a tiinny bit of town there.

I really didn't,

the fuck

? Threw a vote on to see what would happen,

didn't think you guys would fucking lynch what the fuck

FoS: I don't even know

- PBuG

HOLY SHIT GUYS

WHAT THE FUCK

SILAVOR 4 OPPORTUNISTIC SCUM

---

Take a good look at that Gut wagon, people. Take a good look.

That wagon is godawful. It is a scum counterwagon, just like silavor yesterday except for the poorer justification. If you take a good look, you will note that there are THREE scumbags on it.

Why is Gut still at L-1?

[Tarhalindur]

I’m going to address the wagon on because it’s an exact replay of yesterday and quite frankly disappoints me greatly.

LOLWIFOM? That’s it? No-one has given one hint of actually scummy play (unlike say, Silavor Gut or the others I’ve actually detailed as scum with actual reasons why) and are just bandwagonning for a variety of reasons (Fate is Butthurt that I won “Best Newbie”, several others are clear scum, etc).

Usually, I'd note that for me trying to quantify a gut read based on specifics is horribly counterproductive (tends to trigger the kinds of doubts that lead me to ignore caught scum).

But I don't need to, because the first hint of your scummy play is this very quote. See all that dismissiveness of the votes on you, the attempts to discredit players attacking you? That's scum behavior.

You know, after reading a bunch of games where MoI was town I was starting to wonder what his scum game looked like.

You didn’t vote in this post but this is the most important element of your ‘meta-vote’. Please detail the MoI Town games you have read. Pretty bad use of meta. I’d expect experienced Tar to know better.

1) "know better" = pet peeve of mine. Unfortunately, it's only a null tell

2) The two main games that lead me to conclude that you are scum are both currently ongoing (though one probably won't be for much longer - PARTAY TIME anyone?), though you have flipped in both. Other games that I have considered so far:
Mafia MetaMafia
American Gods Mafia
Metropolis: Revisited (multiscum)
Choose Your Side: A Monument of Sins (closest town game to your play here)
Mini Normal 1086

After metamaf and [redacted] I very much expected to see more mellow town play, but instead you're stating that you've got 3 scum and that everyone else should go ahead and listen to you.
Naut's thing is similar- Yeah it wasn't a GOOD reason but unless I'm mistaken it was for an RVS wagon at the time and I have a really hard time seeing Naut use it as an excuse for being on a d1 quicklynch instead of just passing off the spy-scum claim as rvs shenanigans. Going you're absolutely scum while insulting their reason for the vote isn't what I expected from MoI-town.

And why isn't it worth your time. This is a serious question.

1. I don't see why your opinion of how I should play based on MetaMafia and [REDACTED] means I should change. Frankly I am and always have been an aggressive player. Based on those two games in question I don't see you calling for others who are playing here to change their style also.
2. Rhetoric in calling someone 'absolutely' scum isn't any different than rhetoric like "Why aren't you bussing your buddies". I don't see you calling anyone else to the carpet for that either. Granted I'm the top wagon but consistency in approach to what is scummy is Pro-Town.
3. Its not worth my time because I am not really going to share my reasoning for them. When it is an obv-case like Fate it is one thing. More nuanced reads - nope. That's how I roll.

Technically not directed at me, but worth commenting on nonetheless.

See, the key thing that tips me off about you is that in games where you've been town lately you've been aggressive in that levelheaded, evidence-gathering manner that I tend to associate with Glork. You're not levelheaded here. You're not questioning here (a HUGE point, that). What's more, what I'm seeing here IS consistent with your scum games.

I know this kind of reaction.

This is the kind of defense you see from scum who've been cornered by a case they think is utter crap. It's just like when The Fonz got lynched back in Stargate SG-1 as SK due to perceived connections to revealed scum.

In fact, it's more than that. MoI just let it be known that he feels ENTITLED to not be the lynch today because silavor is the DESIGNATED lynch today. Look at the last part of that first sentence. It's not "because he's scummier than I am", it's "because that's what you're supposed to do". Then MoI brings up SpyreX from yesterday to try to frighten players out of his lynch. Not convince.

Frighten.

I repeat: This is NOT town defense. And the posts I don't have time to cover right now aren't any better.

MoI: Claim or die.

Lulz. It's not a Town defense? Showing clearly how the entire argument is meta done in a completely half-assed and non-scum-hunting manner isn't Town.

Yes, we will have to disagree completely.

You complete attempt to Straw-man away the fact Silv has committed multple 'scummy plays' while no-one can bring up anything other than 'LOL Meta' and 'This isn't how Town reacts' is pretty telling.

Everyone on my wagon can't be scum. But I have a hard time believe you are this foolish as Town Tar.

I'm not claiming. I don't think I'm even at L-1.

Oh and I eagerly await your response when you actually have time.

Here's the thing. I fail to see how "posting differently than how you post as town" isn't a giant-ass sign that you aren't town - that's basically the definition of a scumtell.

From what I can tell, you are not posting the same way that you post in games where you are town. That's the meta tell. That's why you're scum.

Want a specific example of how you're posting differently this game? In the town games of yours I was reading, you tended towards being highly logical. Here, I'm seeing logical fallacies (particularly ad hominem) all over the place. Like in that "hard time believing you are this foolish as Town" up above - not because it implies that you think I am scum, but because it implies that even if I am town then I am just being foolish.

Also, why on Earth should I prioritize "scummy plays" (which have led me astray in the past) over a player whose posts as a whole suggest a nontown mindset? That's not a way to hunt scum, that's a way to get bogged down chasing after scummy townies.

More to come.

[Tarhalindur]

: / Tar you're making me a bit sad here. Would you at least be willing to seriously reconsider your Benmage read if I die and you see my town flip later in the game? Because yeah there's a decent chance you're right about MoI being scum, but I really don't think Ben is and I don't want to see you go on a tunneling rampage for the rest of the game if your read on MoI is right and wind up forcing through mislynches because you were right earlier in the game.

And yes I'm well aware that you're not going to trust anything I say until I'm dead. But me becoming dead a bit later is definitely a possibility and I'd really like you to not be that one guy who won't listen to what anyone else has to say until everyone is bitching at each other in postgame.

Of course - Benmage is less likely to be scum if you are town. I won't just throw him into the town pile if you are town, though, because the other big problem with Benmage (being active but off to the side the entire game) is still valid - and far be it from me to rule out scum white knighting town.

Mind you, this shouldn't matter, because I just painted a big, fat target sign of "will die tonight" on my forehead so I really shouldn't be alive long enough to worry about it.

[Tarhalindur]

I'm so glad Tars good with words.

Course BEN would be the one who unvotes off l1, like he needed any MORE town points...

Of course he does, he needs to try to avoid his eventual noose somehow.

Note to self: Benmage/Duplicity interactions read VERY STRONGLY scumbuddy at this point.

Tarh, Gamma did state that he was considering replacing out multiple times (It wasn't just MoI). Bens reply to what votes he finds suspicious and which he doesn't impacts my town read on him minimally, it's more so information I want him to elaborate on than conditions to my town read on him and am still waiting on.

To quote my comment on a very similar kind of question seen from scum in Random Mafia 3:

The question asked here doesn't sit well with me, either - no pressure, just a question for another player.

Neither does Killa's overreaction to one vote today (which is a scumtell, albeit a weak one)

It's still a "oh shit, must distance" tell.

Point conceded on Gamma, though - I got the post where he considered replacement mixed up with the equivalent MoI post.

Your point about there being a potential scum doctor, bulletproof or alternate power preventing an Invicitus occuring makes no sense when it comes to your read on Quilford. A failed invictus vote and no invictus death would leads towards it being abundantly obvious that something prevented the invicidus kill going through which again throws attention and suspicion onto Quilford. There legitimately is no scum motivation for Quilford to shoot at KK at all as it would lead to a likely 1 for 1 trade which is something mafia would avoid at all costs.

Bullshit. If Quilford is bulletproof and planning on trueclaiming that ability, he can just claim that when asked to claim and answer questions about why he's alive. Likewise, a stopped Invictus on a non-bulletproof Quilford could have been explained by a player protecting him (which, as a matter of fact, is what appears to have happened), with the only risk being when targets are claimed at massclaim.

In fact, if I were scum who knew that KK had stated an invictus on a scum who I knew would be protected, I'd happily kill KK so I could falseclear my buddy with the WIFOM logic "scum would never risk killing a player who they knew was targeting a townie, so buddy X is effectively confirmed town".

Wait, why does that logic sound suspiciously familiar? It's almost like a few players have been using that exact train of logic in the thread for a while...

Gut, the only motivation I can find behind revealing you're a hydra knowing that it would be conisdered scummy to late claim it is so you can attempt to use it as an excuse to cover your previous scummy behaviour. With that said I'm getting serious second thoughts in regards to my suspicion directed towards you after reading glancing at a few of your other games.

Once again, you're wishy-washy as hell. Seriously, you're doing a REALLY good job of convincing me to lynch you over Magna today.

CES, you claim to be the solo posting head of the hydra, does this mean that all of chambers thoughts and opinions are discussed elsewhere, if so I want him to come in here and make the next post elaborating on his reads. I want to have a conversation with Shift asap, his internet difficulties is proving to be incredibly frustrating.

So, the only active Duplicity head right now is Regfan? Good to know. It's META PARTAY TIME as soon as a certain ongoing game finally ends.

For now I'll

Unvote

though this vote is likely to come back at some point but I want a chance to read through Naut, The Illu and Zach in more detail before that occurs. I still believe MoI's town and Tarhs outright claim of "Lynch me or follow me" reads as a town-tell, I don't see him putting such a suggestion or claim out there as scum after two town lynches occured.

MORE wishy-washy.

As much as I hate to potentially derail a perfectly good lynch on MoI-scum for the second straight day... I'm actually more sure that Duplicity is scum right now than I am about MoI.

Meh, whatever, they're both scum and both need to die.

Oh fuck me... Hindu bodgy guarded quil... its so simple... I keep neglecting bodyguard stops invictus kills.

Fyi a scum doc wouldn't.

And a bpv... would show no kill despite KK flipping with invictus ... and everyone would go, oh KK invictusd quil....lynch quil.


WELL THEN. Time to reexamine gamma when I get the chance.

Scum doc WOULD stop an Invictus kill by the wording of the Doctor ability (yes, it's there, though it took way too long for me to spot it) in the abilities post. Unless you know something about Tarhalindur over Mafia that we don't.

Also, look who ELSE switched to that "scum wouldn't kill KK because it would result in Quilford/Gamma's slot being lynched". No point in refuting that again. There IS a point, however, in figuring out which scumbag is coordinating the response to my attack on Gamma - nothing better than taking out a scum coordinator. I'd say DGB, but she's dropped a bunch of metatowntells this game... let me take a look at past scum games of the Scum Four again.

[Tarhalindur]

Tar a chain reaction kill meant invictus went through.... so there was no quil doc or quil bpv.

In case you forgot, bodyguard resolves before all other protective abilities (I should know, it's relevant to me so I checked) and my operating assumption is that Hinduragi bodyguarded Quilford N1 (in which case the kill was redirected before Bulletproof or Doctor had a chance to resolve).

Considering that you've also come to the conclusion that Hinduragi bodyguarded Quilford N1, it shouldn't be hard to figure out this line of reasoning.

But instead you keep clinging to your desperate little attempts to fend off my glorious ironclad logic that shows how Gamma's slot is not confirmed. And that's because you're either being incredibly stupid as town or flailing scum trying to preserve your buddy's alibi.

[Tarhalindur]

Gut, trying to understand why people do things will allude you everygame.

If Hindu didn't Bguard him then KK lied... and

Gamma is back to conftown.

What's ur view on gamma?

Also, I do not want a hammer till I can access a computer and figure some shit out.

That underlined sentence is funny, I could have sworn that you were arguing that Gamma is conftown if KK is telling the truth too...

---

In other news, not happy with the Invictus wagon on Illuminati (it can wait for tomorrow IMO) - I'd rather see a blanket order to Invictus one of {MoI, Benmage, Gamma, Duplicity} at random, removing MoI if lynched and weighting Gamma lower than the rest (due to possibility of bulletproof).

Honestly, at this point I think the wiser plan would be "select 2 (or 3) players by Invictus vote, Invict one at random".

[Tarhalindur]

Also, since I forgot:

Invictus: Duplicity

[Tarhalindur]

Tar a chain reaction kill meant invictus went through.... so there was no quil doc or quil bpv.

In case you forgot, bodyguard resolves before all other protective abilities (I should know, it's relevant to me so I checked) and my operating assumption is that Hinduragi bodyguarded Quilford N1 (in which case the kill was redirected before Bulletproof or Doctor had a chance to resolve).

Considering that you've also come to the conclusion that Hinduragi bodyguarded Quilford N1, it shouldn't be hard to figure out this line of reasoning.

But instead you keep clinging to your desperate little attempts to fend off my glorious ironclad logic that shows how Gamma's slot is not confirmed. And that's because you're either being incredibly stupid as town or flailing scum trying to preserve your buddy's alibi.

This is me not ruling out bodyguard, but ruling out vest or doc.

And the post you quoted is the one where I remind you that you can't rule out bulletproof vest or doc protect on Quilford/Gamma N1 because Hinduragi's bodyguard would have taken precedence over either of those abilities.

Tar tar tar.... underline only to make me look bad...spin everything ... God I need a computer.

I was arguing gamma conftown with KK lying... but that was under the forgetfulness of the body guard chance/likelihood from Hindu.

And I'm trying to figure out where the hell that "gamma conftown with KK lying" comes from, considering that I've refuted every argument I've seen from you so far on the "gamma = conftown" front. Also, those claims of me "[spinning] everything" (when I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your argument and the scum mindset that might explain them) and "[underlining] only to make [Benmage] look bad" (no, I've been underlining points in your posts I want to draw attention to/get an explanation for) don't add up to me.

Note that the continued push that Gamma must be town alone wouldn't be enough for me to be sure you're scum. I've seen VERY misguided townies in my time - take a gander at DGB (D3/Vehm QT, "counterclaimed scum [scotmany12] must actually be town!") and populartajo (D4, "this player [farside22] who I can confirm town by my results which I'm hiding because I claimed vanilla when I'm actually Tracker must be scum!"). The real tell that you're scum is how you've been standing to the side for most of the game while strong town players (and MoIscum) snipe at each other.

[Tarhalindur]

Since this Gut wagon isn't going away and Gut has outed himself as mainly CES, I went back and reread Gut.

Yeah, Gut's town for the exact same damn reason that MoI is scum. EXACT SAME DAMN REASON.

Seriously, folks. He's an obvious counterwagon. ANOTHER obvious counterwagon. Why the hell isn't MoI dead yet?

---

Wagons at their height –

Day 1

Fate RVS Wagon (6) - Quilford, DrippingGoofball, Gut, Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, danceHello

Spyrex DERP Wagon (10) - Nautilius, Zachrulez, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, Ban, danceHello, Gut, DrippingGoofball, Fate, silavor

Day 2

Silavor Day 2 Wagon Part 1 (7) - Fate, Gammagooey, Duplicity, Benmage, Tarhalindur, Nautilius, MagnaofIllusion

MoI Day 2 Wagon Part 1 (8) - Fate, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, silavor, danceHello, Gut, Gammagooey, Zachrulez

MoI Day 2 Wagon Part 2 (8) - Fate, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, silavor, danceHello, Gut, Gammagooey, Nautilius

Silavor Day 2 Wagon Part 2 (9) - Duplicity, Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, Ban, Baby Spice, The Illuminati, Zachrulez, Gammagooey, Fate

Day 3

Guts wagon Day 3 (6) - Zachrulez, The Illuminati, Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, DrippingGoofball, Duplicity

MoI wagon Day 3 (6) - Fate, VitaminR, Tarhalindur, Nautilius, Gut, Gammagooey

Whee, wagon analysis! I want in on this!

Operating assumptions:

1) Scum stayed the hell of the tail end of the SpySpy wagon. Why would scum put themselves out in the open at the tail end of a DERP wagon
2) Silavor composite wagon D2 was heavily scum-driven, since there was effectively no risk to scum for being on due to broad consensus that silavor needed to die. This applies even if the silavor wagon wasn't the counterwagon I think it is - the main differences that a MoI flip would indicate are whether there were three or four scum on silavor (three if MoI town, four otherwise) whether the scum are on the silavor wagon early (if MoI is scum) or late (if MoI is town - scum wouldn't have much reason to care about which wagon to be on if MoI is town and could just pile on whichever one was going through). Note that Gamma looks really bad either way, but worse if MoI is town.

I REALLY need to get time later today to template "common wagons" - the player base is pretty obviously split into two distinct groups (plus DGB) based on which wagon players were on yesterday/are on today (and whether players were on SpySpy D1, since most of the players in group 2 are conspicuously off that wagon), and I'm pretty sure one of the groups has a lot of scum (3 or more) in it.

Please don't lynch before I do that.

[Tarhalindur]

First glance and the computer still looks retarded.

MoI I derailed for ya before... tar might want to hang today instead of you... no need to rush.

All should have 2-3 invictus

invictus, gut Nautilus, Tar

Oh look who starts to push me once he gets cover to do so from the Wagonalysis Scumputer.

Not surprised in the slightest.

[Tarhalindur]

Wagon Yes or No?
	SpyreX	Silavor (1 or 2)	MoI (D2 1 or 2)	MoI (D3)	Gut
BabySpice	NO	YES	NO	DEAD	DEAD
Ban	YES	YES	NO	NO	NO
Benmage	NO	YES	NO	NO	YES
DGB	YES	NO	NO	NO	YES
Duplicity	NO	YES	NO	NO	YES
Fate	YES	YES	YES	YES	NO
Gut	YES	NO	YES	YES	NO
Hinduragi	NO	DEAD	DEAD	DEAD	DEAD
danceHello	YES	NO	YES	DEAD	DEAD
MoI	NO	YES	NO	NO	YES
Nautilus	YES	YES	YES	YES	NO
Quil/GG	NO	YES	YES	YES	NO
silavor	YES	NO	YES	DEAD	DEAD
SpyreX	NO	DEAD	DEAD	DEAD	DEAD
Tarhalindur	YES	NO	YES	YES	NO
The Illuminati	NO	NO	NO	NO	YES
VitaminR	YES	NO	YES	YES	NO
Zachrulez	YES	YES	YES	NO	YES

Blue denotes the target of a wagon's response to their own wagon (NO response is null in that case).

Important groups of note:

Not on SpyreX lynch:

BabySpice

, Benmage, Duplicity,

Hinduragi

, MoI, Quil/Gamma, The Illuminati,

SpyreX

I'll bet that there are at least two and probably at least 3 scum in this group. Rest of the scum were probably early on that wagon (scum points for Naut and Zach).

On D2 or D3 MoI wagon but not the other:

Zachrulez

On silavor or Gut wagon but not the other:

DGB, Ban, Fate* (arguable, he clearly wasn't happy about his silavor hammer), The Illuminati (but note absence D2)

On D2 and D3 MoI wagons but not silavor or Gut:

Tarhalindur, VitaminR, Gut (but note blue for D3), Fate* (technically on silavor, but included here due to tone of hammer)
This is, roughly, Group 1 of the player base.

On silavor and Gut wagons but not either MoI wagon:

Benmage, Duplicity,

MoI

This is, roughly, Group 2 of the player base.

On silavor AND D2 MoI wagons:

Fate* (with caveat re: note tone of hammer), Nautilus, Quil/Gamma, Zach
This is, roughly, Group 3 of the player base.

Group 4 is the surviving outliers: DGB, Ban, the Illuminati

Group 1 who were on SpyreX D1:

All

Group 2 who were on SpyreX D1:

None

Group 3 who were on SpyreX D1:

Fate*, Nautilus, Zach

Rough conclusions pending looking for more sorting:
- If MoI is scum, the rest of Group 2 is likely to be scum.
- If MoI is town, Group 3 is likely to be scum (would have no preference as to which candidate was lynched) and Group 2 is relatively likely to be town (won't rule out a white knighting scum, but wouldn't be a priority)
- Group 1 is more likely to be town (due to silavor flip), as is Group 4 (due to signs of independent thinking)

More to come.

[Tarhalindur]

Uh, I hate days like yesterday. All set to come home and the big man in charge walks up and says he needs me to stay for another fifteen hours. Apparently replying with "I don't actually work for you, and no consultant works that long" is just met with a "then I'll shoot you and dump your body in the lake." And here's a hint, don't laugh because he'll shoot you and chain you to a desk where you wake up doing calculus problems. Which is weird because the company specialized in using specialized analytical logarithms to maximize efficiency in distribution routes... No idea what they needed the calculus for. Plus, they don't even use desks... where the hell did that thing come from? Do they just keep one in storage for this exact situation?

Anyway, enough of my boring life stories.

Why post this? There's this acronym that I used to use for posts like this... had two capital I's and an A in it... forgot exactly what it was...

This is admittedly a possible explanation for the KK kill. It is NOT, however, the only possible explanation.

I like your thinking but I'm sad to see the idea that was in my head not included on your list. With my own semi-known feelings on gamma aside, shouldn't the fact that Gamma being scum hinges on certain scum power roles being present and that the possibility that he was killed for this reason exists imply that he should be shelved at least until a scum power role is caught?

I mean it's cool to say "The possibility that gamma is scum exists if certain other things exist", but it still seems like lynching him without some suggesting you're right is illogical. I realize you're up for lynching anyone of your four which is cool, I only say this because you mentioned you would be voting him if not for MOI and that seems like wasted focus to me.

Anyway, not all that important... just thought I would weigh in on past conversations that are probably over and don't need my input.

Uh, NO.

First and foremost, if Gamma has bulletproof shields then he'd just skate through endgame if we used this logic, because we would NEVER find the relevant scum power role before he dies. Second, the same thing applies if we can't find a scum doc before LyLo.

So, no, I WON'T be waiting for scum power flips before looking for a Gamma lynch. And if a little birdie hadn't told me you're a Korlash alt (or if I didn't remember you being rather poor at logic sometimes) I'd add you directly into the "willing to lynch" pile for this. As it is, my town read on you is merely severely rattled.

(Note to town scouters: If you exist and haven't scouted Gamma yet, you should probably do that tonight.

Note to everyone else: Scum probably have a Scouter regardless of town having one, and scum could just have a doc instead of bulletproof shields, so don't clear Gamma tomorrow if somebody claims Scouter with a no-shields result on Gamma.)

Your point about there being a potential scum doctor, bulletproof or alternate power preventing an Invicitus occuring makes no sense when it comes to your read on Quilford. A failed invictus vote and no invictus death would leads towards it being abundantly obvious that something prevented the invicidus kill going through which again throws attention and suspicion onto Quilford. There legitimately is no scum motivation for Quilford to shoot at KK at all as it would lead to a likely 1 for 1 trade which is something mafia would avoid at all costs.

See, you're looking at it in retrospect. Night one, scum couldn't have known that there was only going to be one kill, they also couldn't have known that invictus's would be so easy to tell apart from other kills. I literally went into night expecting 5 or 6 deaths. A missing invictus would be easy to cover up, and with so many possibilities like KK changed it, or a town doc stopped it, or even if a bodyguard died it could be argued that one protected Quill. furthermore, the age old "i'm bulletproof" wouldn't suggest anything. In fact, if gamma was bulletproof then the scum could have planned on that to make him look town. I.e. Scum kill KK, knowing quill won't die, dawn arrives and they argue that scum wouldn't have killed KK therefore quill is town. Instant scum='confo' town status. Definitely worth wasting a BP shot in my opinion. And this isn't even factoring in my own ideas on the matter.

I know lynching gamma is currently illogical, but in the event he does flip scum I could certainly see you as his partner here.

How can you be so logical here and yet screw up your logic so much up above?

Oh fuck me... Hindu bodgy guarded quil... its so simple... I keep neglecting bodyguard stops invictus kills.

Fyi a scum doc wouldn't.

A scum doc wouldn't what? What do you know that I don't?

THIS. (The implied context is "wouldn't stop an invictus kill", but that's not consistent with first page info.)

Note to self: Benmage/Duplicity interactions read VERY STRONGLY scumbuddy at this point.

Note to self, look into Ben more. Would you think this still holds true even if Gamma ends up town?

Yes (mainly because I could see Ben/Duplicity white knighting), especially if MoI flips scum sometime.

Bullshit. If Quilford is bulletproof and planning on trueclaiming that ability, he can just claim that when asked to claim and answer questions about why he's alive. Likewise, a stopped Invictus on a non-bulletproof Quilford could have been explained by a player protecting him (which, as a matter of fact, is what appears to have happened), with the only risk being when targets are claimed at massclaim.

In fact, if I were scum who knew that KK had stated an invictus on a scum who I knew would be protected, I'd happily kill KK so I could falseclear my buddy with the WIFOM logic "scum would never risk killing a player who they knew was targeting a townie, so buddy X is effectively confirmed town".

Wait, why does that logic sound suspiciously familiar? It's almost like a few players have been using that exact train of logic in the thread for a while...

Do you have an opening for an adoring fan? DGB keeps me pretty busy but I'm fairly certain I could spare a few moments for you if needed.

If it means I actually get a shot at convincing other players to ignore the stupid Gut wagon and DGB's latest harebrained schemes, hell yes. (Though I'll still have to check for signs of you being scum - nothing personal, just gotta be sure after some of those quotes up there.)

Tar a chain reaction kill meant invictus went through.... so there was no quil doc or quil bpv.

How do you know? Scum can't plan on a town Body Guard 'interfering'. Body Guard happens fist, so there is no reason there couldn't have also been some scum plan in the works.

Also I really hate being late to this party... *shakes head* I am not liking this recurring theme from Ben 'knowing' stuff.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

I don't actually trust Tar's spread sheet. Most of it seems spot on, but it put Gamma in Fate's group instead of in Dup's where he belongs. It's a small hiccup but ultimately leads me to doubt it's authenticity. Then again, I'm an idiot so what do I know right.

Apparently I was suffering from the same syndrome that affects so many of my damn vote counts when moderating. I'll post an updated sheet later.

VOTE: ZACHRULEZ

Magna, if you really care that much about looking for scum on the SpyreX wagon, how about this one? Scum gets on Spy's early wagon with a semi-serious chuckle, then takes it to the bank and tries to catch on silavor mislynch the next day, they call him Zachrulez. See him skim, see him skate, but never see him post strong content when it doesn't have to do with defense...

This is also who my heart tells me to murder, and so I murder <3

Sorry Elli.

Yeah no. I'm strongly considering tossing YOU into the "would lynch today" pile, though.

I mean, seriously, take a look at this post from Zach D2:

Zach is a very strong scum read- Why he's stronger than the other scum reads is mostly gut but I don't think his first few posts regarding Spy were genuine- unvoting with your first post of the game is a reaaally silly reason for suspecting someone and clarifying that "oh I don't think you're scum for this reason just that one" is something I do as scum all the time, and much more relevant than that is his "annoyance" vote on MoI instead of thinking that MoI was scum, as well as his leaving it on there for a while after MoI's pseudo-claim despite that, staying on the Gut wagon for a bit when it was very clear he wasn't going to be lynched yesterday, and eventual vote on silavor with the note that he'd also lynch 2 other people even though it was very clear they weren't getting lynched, but not making a big deal out of why he thought either of Gut/Baby was scum and why other people should vote them, just stating that he thought Gut's earlier posts were basically a scum-claim.

I've actually used that I don't think you're scum for that reason just this one as scum before, and I've busted another scum on that reasoning. Both situations happend much deeper into each game though, this was a very very early game point. I thought the action was interesting enough to go after that early on, but I wasn't interested in actually lynching Spyrex over it at that point. (I actually wasn't even online when that lynch actually happened.)

I did generally find refusal to claim scummy, and annoyance made voting even easier, then gut claimed scum, so yeah. Aside from that, MOI really hasn't done anything to really make me think he's scum, and on further reflection I didn't find that actual action scummy either. So sue me, my read changed.

As for staying on the gut wagon. You're really going to accuse me of any of that, while I'm V/LA? Really? I only moved my vote when I did because that was literally the only window I had for access and I did have to pick a major wagon precisely for what you're attacking me for, being on a wagon that wasn't going anywhere to deadline.

On that subject, if you don't think the point I made on Gut is worth lynching him for, you're either scum or not paying attention... either way...

And ooooooooooooooooh, I didn't make cases, that's uber strong scum read? Guess what Gamma, I don't make cases, and this comes down to why I think you're generally full of shit. I've spent plenty of time in my earlier days playing this

making cases

and pretty much the same thing comes out of it as when you just take a position that you find someone scummy for a single strong point. If people aren't interested, they aren't going to read it, and so either way, meh.

But you're really going to tell me that I'm scummy because I didn't push harder even though I would have been willing to lynch Baby and Gut if wagons were there? Really? I suppose you really didn't want to give me a chance to do that anyway because not even right after I did you popped your vote right on the wagon and pushed Fate to hammer it, this with enough time to inquire to me as to why I WANTED those lynches, but wait. You chose not to do that.

Yeah, so you could make this big

damning looking case

on me today with your super duper scum read. Yeah right.

Gut/VitaminR/Gamma

Take that to the bank.

Oh my, I wrote a wall without even realizing it.

Seriously guys, take a look at that post. Zach's town as shit. Misguided, but still town as shit.

Besides, if MoI's scum then Zach is almost certainly town, so...

Invictus wagon now uses 2 votes. If the first target is dead then you get moved to the second one in the final votecount. It'll make it so we don't have to deal with all this bullshit tomorrow if one of Gut/MoI gets lynched, flips town, and the other would normally be tomorrow's lynch since nobody wants to invictus the people they're voting right now.

so this is only if you're invictusing gut/Moi... alright...

Invictus: Moi, Sub-Invictus: Dup

I agree with your "dead Moi means less distractions tomorrow" even if I don't actually think he's likely scum. Dup goes both ways between my scum group combos so he's the obvious backup.

Unvote:, Vote: Duplicity

I'd still hammer MOI over gut if it came to it but given how the game inevitably plays out I'm sure someone else will do it long before I need to bastardize my own beliefs.

I'd rather have a MoI lynch, but if we can't get that a Duplicity lynch is the next best thing. Let's see where this goes - I can hop back on MoI once the votes head back towards him.

Unvote, Vote: Duplicity

Invictus: MoI, Invictus: Benmage

---

Gamma does raise one good point: Tomorrow could be LyLo. Also, I probably won't be alive then. Massclaim?

[Tarhalindur]

Nautilius, Gut.

A lot of people are calling you scum

I am calling you town.

Get YOUR FUCKINH ASSES BACK ON THE MOI WAGON

OR SO HELP ME

I WILL LYNCH YOUR CHEEKY FUCKING FACES

Compromise Duplicity lynch with a lock on MoI Invictus work for you?

[Tarhalindur]

PEOPLE WHO CAN HAMMER:

Vitamin, Tar, Magna, Ban, Benmage, Duplicity

We will be lynching from the offwagon pool tomorrow, so hurry up and cash in on immunity from tomorrow's lynch.

Yeah no. Not hammering a player who I think is *much* less likely to be scum than, say, MoI/Benmage/Duplicity/you/Gamma.

Besides, you just guaranteed that Magna will hammer once he gets to the thread, so...

[Tarhalindur]

Magna is being Mass Invicted during the night.

So in hammering right now, you not only guarantee Magna's death (or out scum doc and make your gamma argument that much stronger), but you take yourself out of tomorrow's lynching pool and make sure Ben/Dupe stay in it.

Your argument suffers one fundamental problem: Why the hell should I care about "taking a player out of the lynching pool", especially when I've been playing suicidally already?

But you know what? I'm fucking done with this shit.

To all players: I've gotten so fucking pissed at the sheer stupidity I've seen from players in this game who I think are town (TWO STRAIGHT DAYS WITH A QUICKHAMMER WITHOUT A CLAIM, TWO STRAIGHT DAYS THAT THE MOI WAGON HAS BEEN STALLED IN FAVOR OF A COUNTERWAGON ON TOWN) that I'm going to drop an ultimatum. FOLLOW ME OR LYNCH ME. There is no middle ground.

I'll even go ahead and claim now, since it should explain a fair bit of my play (and I'm not worried about getting myself NKed considering that's what I'm trying to get anyways): Bodyguard/Invictus (same combo as Hinduragi). Yeah. I've been playing suicidal-Tar (baiting NKs be they scum or vig) because I'm REALLY not supposed to be alive so far into the game. What kind of scumbag kills danceHello (a mislynch candidate) over obvtown, I ask you?

Time to show I wasn't bluffing on this. If it takes a Tarhalindur town flip to finally get the rest of the town to figure out what the hell is going on here, if it takes my flip for people to figure out that the reason the MoI lynch hasn't gone through is because the scum have been pulling a full-court press against it, SO BE IT.

Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur

If the rest of the town is going to be so STUPID as to keep following scumbags, if Fate is going to keep conceding to scum at the last minute, I'm pretty much done with this game. And I don't feel it would be fair to request replacement, so...

[Tarhalindur]

I have to head to dinner now, so a full rebuttal of the Zach case will have to wait for a couple of hours, but this needs to be said immediately:

Oh, and I shant be claiming anything at all, ever.

Oh this I don't get. Why did you vote me solely for not claiming when I was at L-2?

BINGO

SCUM HIT

50,000 points

FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME

If we're going to lynch obvtown anyways and nobody's going to man up on me, why the hell aren't we lynching DGB for being antitown as shit?

I mean seriously, this is Medieval all over again. I'm probably Invictusing DGB tonight just to shut her up (assuming I get killed, which seems likely) so that scum actually have to stick their heads out tomorrow rather than just sheep DGB like they've been doing.

But first, DGB, since you're town and I'd rather have you in the game if possible (and continuing to be an effective extra Mafioso counts as not possible), one last little plea:

Remember Medieval? Where you harebrained off that confirmed scum couldn't be scum and that my correct lategame reads were wrong? Are you SERIOUSLY going to do that again? Are we going to have to get rid of your anti-town antics the old-fashioned way?

Before we do anything else, please fire up your Scumputer again and recalc things WITHOUT the SpyreX randomlynch.

[Tarhalindur]

Goofball is town, even as misguided as her case on me is.

Fate's town.

Magna's probably town.

Talihandur is town.

Scum are in here: Benmage, Gut, Naut, Vitamin R, Gammagooey.

Happy hunting.

This post is so unbelievably, obviously town that I can't believe there are still players voting for Zach.

[Tarhalindur]

But wait, there's more:

Because scumvor is so stupid he would go out of his way to draw attention to himself by hammering.

Right. Ok then. You keep thinking that.

WIFOM

Why did you hammer?

This is everything that Zach has provided on his case for silavor. A silavor-town making a stupid hammer like that would be prey for at least one opportunistic scum cashing in on stupidity, and Zach treating this like it is obviously the correct lynch is what I would expect from scum. Notice how there is no effort to explain scum benefit behind the hammer, just a parked vote. Also similar to how MoI handled things, except it's an even juicier action coming from MoI, considering how he was protesting against having another stupid, thoughtless lynch like SpyreX's twice in a row.

BULLSHIT.

You know what that reads as to me? It reads as town parking his vote on a player who did something scummy pending his explanation/a better target - just like, say, my D1 SpyreX vote.

The really telling part here is the question "why did you hammer?" - unless I'm very much mistaken, Zach wasn't *sure* that silavor's hammer is scum-motivated, only suspected it, so he double-checked. That's town behavior.

Going for the easy mislynch continues with the Baby Spice Invictus vote. Explanation is that she hasn't poste a lot, and that's it. When she does post more, he ignores her and keeps the vote, and later adds on "piss poor meta case" for reasoning, which is shit an is lazy Zach scum giving just enough reasoning to justify an opportunistic vote.

Uh, no.

From what I can tell, Zach vote to vig (not lynch) BabySpice because she was an unreadable lurker, then when she actually did post she read scummy to him so he upgraded to a vote. That's town logic.

Proof of this? Take a gander at this post:

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

I was hoping to get him to actually qualify his statement with well... anything with that remark.

@Duplicity: If/when Baby Spice posts more, it's possible my position on her will change, for these 5 minutes though, she's doing a lot of nothing.

This? This is 100% town mindset.

His MoI vote is wonderful for analysis when it seemed like MoI was definitely going to get lynched; he puts Magna at L-1, no reasoning. This later allowed him to back off the Magna vote later when scumMoI squirmed for longer than expected with "oh, I was just voting him out of annoyance". This is scumZach not wanting to be caught off the wagon, but definitely being reluctant to lynch his scumbuddy.

This is a bullshit misrep if I ever saw one.

Zach's reasoning for voting MoI was his refusal to claim, no more, no less. In fact, Zach lays out his reasoning for the MoI vote here:

V/LA and don't have a lot of time.

Original vote on Magna was annoyance, but I'm not getting the feel I got in Star's aligned when he was going for the murderer win con and was blatantly scummy. So out of the major wagons, I'd prefer a Silavor lynch.

Unvote: Vote: Silavor

Would happily switch to Baby Spice or Gut if there's interest in lynching them today. (Which I haven't seen to this point.)

Also note the "prefer a silavor lynch" and "would happily switch to Baby Spice or Gut" - it's the same kind of reasoning ("there's players who I think are likely to be scum and I'm willing to lynch and [implicitly] there are players who I don't consider likely enough to be town to be lynched") that I've been using today. It's also clear he would prefer to lynch certain players over silavor and is simply settling for an acceptable lynch, which is inconsistent with a scum "doesn't care who gets lynched so long as they're not on my team and I won't get nailed for my vote" mindset.

Also not finding why Tar can even call Zach's big defense post good because everytime I read that hunk of crap all I hear is voices in my head screaming "ZACHISSCUMZACHISSCUMZACHISSCUM".

Oh REALLY now?

You can't see the pro-town indignance at the case on him? (MoI's been trying the same response, but it rings fake to me at an intuitive level in a way that Zach's defense doesn't.)

His defense for being on the SpyreX lynch was crap. He basically acknowledges Gamma has a legitimate point, and then says it was too early game to matter (nevermind that Zach does the same damn thing in his ISO #25). The rest of the defense, "I wasn't online", is unverifiable either way, and thus really doesn't tell us much.

CRAPLOGIC. Zach's defense for being on the SpyreX wagon (to such an extent that one needs a defense for being on a DERPwagon) is EXACTLY the same as mine (actually BETTER than mine, since I checked in when Spy was at about L-2 but didn't realize how close he was to lynch) in EXACTLY the same kind of wagon position.

And that ISO 25 point? Not every point raised against a player is necessarily valid, and it's pro-town to point out bad reasoning.

His defense for the MoI vote is backtracking; even though he initially said that the vote was annoyance, he now adds that he generally finds that action scummy. However, he also adds that MoI never did anything scummy and the way MoI did it wasn't scummy anyways? This seems like a contradiction that comes from scumZach trying to defend his vote on his scumbuddy without incriminating his scumbuddy. When town votes because they find an action scummy, they say so. There is not all this backtracking crap of "Well, the action is normally scummy and I was annoyed, so I voted. This doesn't mean that I actually ever found him scummy, or that he is scummy."

More bull. Zach's point was that he *reconsidered* his belief that MoI's refusal to claim was scummy, decided it wasn't, and acted accordingly. Being willing to reconsider your views is a towntell, albeit a weak one.

He then goes on to defend his Gut read, which apparently is

so good

that anyone who disagrees with it is "scum or not paying attention". This is crap and bullshit, considering all he said on gut is "^scum claim, lynch at will".

Then you're saying that my case and Fate's case on MoI is

His conclusion about Gamma's "big, damning looking" case shows that Zach is intimidated by the size of the case on it, and is pretty damn scummy considering the thing isn't that long in the first place.

Uh, really now? REALLY NOW?

Zach wasn't "intimidated" by Gamma's case, that's a misrep to end all misreps. Zach was showing that

Gamma's "case" on him was - and is - a case that was made by scum

, with a side helping of sarcasm.

OH LOOK I ACCIDENTALLY WROTE A WALL GUESS IM TOWN, EH TAR?
HEHEHEHEHEHE

Oh how you wish this was true, Mr. Scummy McScumbag.

See, the difference is that Zach wrote a wall that simultaneously defended himself and showed that the case against him was not sincere, while *your* wall is trying to paint every last action of an innocent player as scummy. There's a difference. And that difference is that the former is town defense and the latter is a scum attack.

---

I'll comment further on my self-vote and other stuff in a bit. For now:

Unvote, Vote: Magna

[Tarhalindur]

Remember Medieval? Where you harebrained off that confirmed scum couldn't be scum and that my correct lategame reads were wrong? Are you SERIOUSLY going to do that again?

I forget... what did I do in Medieval? Off the bat I remember a few dark tunnels... but we won.

Oh here, why don't I just link to the infamous Vehm QuickTopic.

Just reread all the parts beginning where you kept pushing that scotmany had to be town AFTER another player had flipped town with his claimed role name...

[Tarhalindur]

Serious question of the day: Can anyone think of a good reason why there have been consistent counterwagons at the slightest provocation (silavor, Gut, and now Zach) to the MoI wagon on two separate days if he is town?

[Tarhalindur]

Serious question of the day: Can anyone think of a good reason why there have been consistent counterwagons at the slightest provocation (silavor, Gut, and now Zach) to the MoI wagon on two separate days if he is town?

Enough people think he's not scum that they would rather vote other people.

Better question: Can anyone (preferably not Gamma) think of reasons why scum wouldn't be all over a MoItown wagon (assuming that both wagons yesterday were on town - a possibility I'm starting to seriously consider?)

See, MoI's refusal to hammer (and the rest of his posts in the last few pages, but the hammer refusal crystallized the nagging feeling) reads town to me, but I'm still not sure if he can be town given that a bunch of scumbags were on silavor instead of MoI yesterday. I have a theory, but I want to see if anyone else has something.

And Tar you're really REALLY looking at Zach and looking for things that make him town instead of going over his play and trying to objectively decide whether he's town or scum.

No, of COURSE I'm not currently "objectively deciding whether [Zach] is town or scum" - because I

already made that decision some time back

, and nothing I've seen from anyone today is enough for me to reconsider*. I've had a nice firm town read on Zach for a bit now, based on intuition strengthened by a couple of key points (his defense post D2, and now his final reads post today).

I ALSO have a nice firm read that Nautilius's "case" is full of shit and comes from scum based on past experience with cases made by scum.

And yet I see that players appear to be buying Nautilius's crap case on a player who I have a strong town read on.

So what do I do? I write a persuasive argument backing up my thesis (that Zach is town and Naut's argument is full of shit) and back it up with evidence. Just like I did when refuting the argument earlier today that you are confirmed town. Just like I've done in any number of history classes in the last four years. You have a problem with that?

* - There are things that would make me reconsider Zach. At least two of {Gamma, Duplicity, Benmage, Nautilius, MoI} flipping town, for instance, or a drastic change in his play (I'd have said a MoI flip earlier today, but I'm reconsidering that in light of recent MoI and Zach play). I haven't seen any of these things so far today, so...

This isn't me saying you're scum by the way, because I really don't think you are. This is me saying you're taking your conclusion and looking for things that fit it instead of going over the evidence and looking for solutions that fit.

Of COURSE you're saying that I'm not scum. Because you ARE scum, and in addition to knowing that I'm not on your scumteam you don't want to get into a confrontation with me.

So instead you'll try to either convince me to follow you or to discredit me by calling me scum without calling me scum - oh wait, correction, you're going to try to do both at the same time!

Unfortunately for you, I've been playing Mafia long enough to know that players who call me scum without calling me scum are themselves scum. More to the point, I know that scum generally HATE confrontation with me - a major motivation for that "vote me" post I just pulled, along with sheer frustration and showing Naut that his little blackmail-with-threat-of-lynch scheme was useless and a waste of time (because if people were actually going to go through with a Tar lynch tomorrow, why not do so today?*), was to see if, say, Naut would actually show some townguts here. (Benmage's willingness to actually vote me is a point in his favor, btw - no longer willing to lynch him today.)

* - Which reminds me. Another GIANT point against Naut at this point?

He's trying to chain lynches.

Yeah, no. No way, no how.

Anybody else up for a Gamma lynch? Or a Naut lynch? Or a Duplicity lynch?

[Tarhalindur]

I BETTER NOT SCROLL UP AND SEE TAR GIVING SCUM THE TIME OF DAY

WHAT RE YOU DOING TAR

WHAT DID WE AGREE ON

DONT IGNORE ME LIKE IM NOT HERE

WE

ARE

CONFIRMED

MASONS

NOW

FUCKIN

TALK

TO
ME

No, I'm not giving scum the time of day.

I *am* calling scum on being scum and doing scummy things so that other people might realize that they are scum and vote for them.

I mean seriously, if we're going to stop the Zach mislynch then we have to rebut the crap case scum is making on him (and Wagonalysis Scumputer) so that the rest of the townies (who have shown a depressing tendency for idiotically following scum this game) won't hammer him. And we need to call Gamma on scummy actions that support his scum agenda (like calling me scum with a "but I'm not calling you scum" disclaimer and then misrepping me when I call him on it by ignoring the fact that the scummy part of his post was the "but I'm not calling you scum" part) so that other townies will recognize that Gamma is scum and act appropriately.

And I'm getting cold feet on MoI-lynch (not MoI-vig) because he's actually been posting like town lately (I know, I can't believe it either) and more importantly there are at least four players scummier than he is. And this would also explain scums' sudden willingness to support the "lynch Zachtown, invict MoI" plan at least as well as "well, doc MoI tonight" would.

And if I've gotten into the realm of "Tar is confirmed town" then we really should massclaim today because Tar-town at massclaim = death to scum but that is neither here or there.

[Tarhalindur]

Come to think of it:

Unvote, Vote: Gamma

Invict: MoI

MoI's reached the point where I would rather treat him like I did silavor yesterday - invict/vig hell yes, lynch no.

[Tarhalindur]

Ur a lylo liability...right?

I advocate my own lynches when town and in such situations.

I'm only a LYLO liability if we don't actually lynch some scum. Like Gut or Nautilus. But this game is such a cluster-fuck I'm not going to cry if I have to get lynched today to get some actual scum lynched tomorrow and to appease all those players going "He can't live its too dangerous" (and there are some scum in there. Probably Gammagooey).

And even if I do die today I ask the remaining Town to stop listening to Fate. He really doesn't have a clue. All he's done is focus on me to the exclusion of ANYONE else since Day 1. He's probably not scum and just typical stupid and ego-driven Fate. But following him will run Town into the ground regardless. It's not like he's going to ever be NKed if he is Town since his play is so Pants-on-Head.

@TOWN

- Do you think I am scum with Zachrulez? Because that's the ONLY way I could have possibly passed hammering him not once but twice. Especially since my death is being signed off on as 'necesarry' regardless of alignment.

Wow.

Yeah, I'm not going to bother worrying about why MoI hasn't been hammered when he's made a post as 100% town as this. (Especially since I've come to suspect that scum have stayed off a MoI hammer because they were either setting up for a late mislynch or afraid of getting nailed by joining the wagon.)

Not for that last point (WIFOM reasons), but the rest of this post is town as fuck.

I am NO LONGER up for a MoI lynch today.

Gut's not scum because this doesn't look like CES-scum.

Zach's not scum because of reasons laid down earlier + gut.

Scum are four of Gamma/Benmage/Naut/Duplicity/VitR (who just CLAIMED scum behavior - standing off to the side is the biggest scumtell in single-faction games). Can we PLEASE get one of them run up before deadline? 22 hours is still a long time.

Unvote, Vote: Duplicity

- best shot of getting to lynch given the time limit and Ban's vote. Give me another wagon in the scum 5 above before deadline and I'll hop.

[Tarhalindur]

I've been skipping Duplicity's posts. I get impatient when I read them.

Is there a tl;dr version of the case somewhere?

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

---

In fact, while I'm at it, let's go over some danceHello posts here, because I think I FINALLY found the best-fit solution to why dance was killed:

The only potential downside to the invictus voting plan involves mafia having the possiblity and opportunity to manipulate the votes during the day phase to prevent themselves from being incivitused however the votes will provide massive amounts of content and interactions to read back for later in the game.

Not understanding the BabySpice votes, sure she's a weaker player however she'll be relatively easy to read correctly later in the game removing any potential gain from invictusing her early, furthermore the placement and timing of her Tarh vote and avoidance of the Spyrex wagon reads as slightly town.

voteDuplicity

This wagon is go. Such a slimy input to the Invictus talk, mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict. Also the stance on Baby Spice is lulzy.

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

Duplicity saw TOWNFATE doin' his thing, so he jumps on the Invictus vote bandwagon, but then some opponents (well not really lolz DGB) to the plan arise, he decides he better put some neutral thoughts on the subject.

QED scum.

-inHim

Dance, I made it abundantly obvious that I believe the perks greatly outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside.

Jesus fucking Christ. It took me five minutes to figure out what you were even saying. I can't tell if you're trying to look smart which is completely negated by saying 'outwayed', or if you're trying to deliberately obfuscate your posts with a lack of conciseness. Either way it's scummy. Additionally, your invictus vote is of no use on yourself, I urge you to do something productive with it immediately.

-PBuG

Self-explanatory I think.

Can we PLEASE lynch Duplicity now?

[Tarhalindur]

Hey everyone, looks like I got to a comp just in time. Hmm...Let's look! Oooh, a post to tear apart! It makes me feel giddy in anticipation!

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

---

In fact, while I'm at it, let's go over some danceHello posts here, because I think I FINALLY found the best-fit solution to why dance was killed:

The only potential downside to the invictus voting plan involves mafia having the possiblity and opportunity to manipulate the votes during the day phase to prevent themselves from being incivitused however the votes will provide massive amounts of content and interactions to read back for later in the game.

Not understanding the BabySpice votes, sure she's a weaker player however she'll be relatively easy to read correctly later in the game removing any potential gain from invictusing her early, furthermore the placement and timing of her Tarh vote and avoidance of the Spyrex wagon reads as slightly town.

voteDuplicity

This wagon is go. Such a slimy input to the Invictus talk, mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict. Also the stance on Baby Spice is lulzy.

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

Duplicity saw TOWNFATE doin' his thing, so he jumps on the Invictus vote bandwagon, but then some opponents (well not really lolz DGB) to the plan arise, he decides he better put some neutral thoughts on the subject.

QED scum.

-inHim

Dance, I made it abundantly obvious that I believe the perks greatly outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside.

Jesus fucking Christ. It took me five minutes to figure out what you were even saying. I can't tell if you're trying to look smart which is completely negated by saying 'outwayed', or if you're trying to deliberately obfuscate your posts with a lack of conciseness. Either way it's scummy. Additionally, your invictus vote is of no use on yourself, I urge you to do something productive with it immediately.

-PBuG

Self-explanatory I think.

Can we PLEASE lynch Duplicity now?

Oh boy, this'll be fun. Let's start with Dance.

Dance was voting on a misunderstanding that I later cleared up personally. You conveniently leave out the following posts from dance:

"I invictused voted myself." does not mean "I invictused myself". It means we voted for an invictus. If you had actually been paying attention you'd see that. The fact that you push on things that are either inaccurate or inconsequential makes it very difficult to read you.

My bad, I tend to misinterpret people when they don't use commas correctly~

That said, I really like that post of yours, but unless I get a better read off your other head or

my

other head sees fit to unvote, the vote stays.

-PBuG

May I suggest the great combo deal of lynching sil and invictusing one of Baby/Zach/Gut?

Unvote

You just proposed invictusing three of my top four scumreads (MoI being the other) so I can't possibly justify voting you. I'll elaborate on them tomorrow. I don't know how dedicated my other head was to our vote for you but he'll just have to deal.

- PBuG
P.S. inHim, DEALWITHIT

Dealt with.

-inHim

Dance, I have a tendancy to use larger words than needed in my posts and it becomes much more incoherent in the early hours of the morning so my apologies but in future I'll try to be much more concise. If I may ask what means of communication are you two attempting to use to discuss read differences because your disagreement in thread reads strongly as if you haven't stopped to have a conversation on MSN or in QT.

We're talking in QT, and we don't have differences in reads, I simply didn't like having our vote on you anymore and didn't want to wait for inHim's permission to take it off. loldealwithit.

- PBuG
P.S. *tendency

Here Dance says they no longer have differences in reads. "Didn't like having our vote on you anymore" is the key phrase here. Now Tar, please elaborate on why you decided to use as a case a misunderstanding that was obviously cleared up later.

It's important to note this was after the posts Tar quoted.

See, here's the thing. From what I can tell, dH didn't so much decide Duplicity wasn't scummy as decide there were better targets (in part due PBuG being less convinced of your scum nature), and then backed off.

In other words, dH had a GREAT catch (seriously, "mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict" is IIoA in a nutshell) but forgot about/got distracted by it. (Know that sort of thing all too well, it's what I did re: Quilford D2.)

But Duplicity *didn't* forget, so his group decided to kill dH for it (after all, nobody would actually go back and figure it out, right?). CLASSIC scum behavior that.

On to Tar's post by post.

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

Post 582 with the Gamma argument. Oh boy, time to argue this out again

Scenarios:

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have no doctor: Kill KK, get Gamma/Quil killed. It fails, Gamma is clear.

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have doctor: See above, Gamma/Quil is clear.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have no doctor: Gamma/Quil dies, this possibility has a chance of 0.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have doctor: Gamma/Quil does not die, looks very odd to town that Gamma did not die. It will become obvious that Gamma was not saved by a town doctor unless Scum doc claims town doc. Linking 2 mafia as a permanent team is not a good idea, chance of occurrence is low.

So Duplicity's response to me pointing out his demolished argument... is to trot out the same dishonest argument?

In the first two cases, Gamma is not "clear" - he's simply not scum by the givens of the argument. To clear a player, you have to disprove all scum logic for killing them, and these two scenarios do nothing for that.

Third possibility has a fatal flaw, as I've pointed out multiple times: Bulletproof is an ability in the list of possible abilities (not even counting Tar over Mafia shenanigans). I'm not going to rule out bulletproof-Gamma unless I see a Scouter claim with results on Gamma from either a player I'm sure is town for other reasons or from a player who is confirmed town Scouter by flip (because a) it's not that hard a role to fake, and b) I fully expect that there is a scum Scouter in the game).

Fourth possibility has multiple fatal flaws, as pointed out earlier: there's no guarantee that players would notice or act on a mysterious missing Invictus if Quil died (especially given that this was after the D1 derphammer), and a missing Invictus could easily be explained away just by a "I guess I was protected". Besides, why on Earth would town-Duplicity conclude that scum *has* to claim Doctor with a N1 protect on Gamma? They could simply count on a missing N1 Quil invictus being ignored/explained away and bus him if necessary. Or Gamma could just claim a 1-shot bulletproof shield.

Asking you a legitimate question is not diverting you.

It is when it's phrased as "look at these players right now INSTEAD of the player you're looking at" - and that's the implicit phrasing I see in that request.

"Scum reaction to Gamma/Fate" Regfan stated that Gamma/Fate bickering was not helping town whatsoever and needed to end. Please elaborate on how this is a scumtell.

All in the tone (especially that little "this is just giving scum a place to hide" comment at the end).

As for the "town but" Regfan asked for Benmage to give his reads on the votes. We like elaboration, deal with it.

There's a difference between a player asking for elaboration from a player they think is town and a scumbag giving himself a way out of a town read (hint: it involves committing to the town read). 834 is the latter, not the former. And as inHim so nicely pointed out earlier, he's been doing this ALL GAME. Why is Dup-scum still alive?

The Nautilus distancing was Regfan promising to read into him for a better read, along with you. Are we distancing you too?

1) Not buying it. Not the right tone - note the "bring up the lack of read first and THEN mention my neutral read on Naut", which is not town wording (and IS IIoA wording)

2) No, because Duplicity was using the kind of rhetoric to attack me that scum use to attack townies (seriously, scum don't attack scum using dishonest "red flag" rhetoric). He ALSO doesn't have the balls to follow through - just like he doesn't have the balls to follow through with concluding that I am scum earlier in this post (since he's clearly arguing that I am arguing in a scum manner, but not following through on it).

As for wavelengths, getting that someone is more than likely clear is not something that requires very much thought. Especially when you don't think of a scumdoc interfering with things

Uh, no. That's not the point of the wavelength argument at all. The only way that the same wavelength applies to Gamma is how BOTH Duplicity and Ben keep using the same dishonest logic about Gamma being cleared AFTER I point out the holes in it.

No, the point of the wavelength argument is that if you go back and look over the whole thread, it becomes clear that Duplicity/Benmage/{Quil/Gamma} have been subtly linked to each other (similar thoughts on who's scum, similar arguments) AT LEAST since the early part of D2 (when I first began attacking Quilford). And I'll bet the only reason such behavior didn't come up D1 is because D1 was too short and Benmage/Duplicity too inactive for it to show up.

Tar: Do you acknowledge that if there is no scumdoc Gamma is clear? And that scumdoc saving the invictus is not something one is likely to come up with right away?

No, because the mere nonexistence of a scum doc is NOT ENOUGH to clear Gamma.

If there is no Mafia doc AND Gamma does not have any bulletproof shields (which, again, is only confirmable by a trustworthy Scouter) AND Tarhalindur over Mafia is confirmed either nonMafia or confirmed to have nothing to do with disrupting Invictus, THEN AND ONLY THEN Gamma is sufficiently confirmed town for me to back off completely. Until then, there are enough possible explanations for Mafia to kill KK despite his claimed Invictus target for me to not clear him for setup reasons - and his slot's play is certainly bad enough to warrant suspicion.

So, Duplicity, let's turn this around on you: What, if anything, do you see in Quil/Gamma's POSTS IN THE THREAD that indicate to you that he is town?

[Tarhalindur]

This scum team's choice of NKs is interesting to say the least. (I'm starting to wonder if scum actually HAVE a factional kill.)

Doesn't matter, there's NO WAY Benmage flips town after a Duplicity scum flip. (Also happy for Gamma and Naut lynches, but they're lower priority.)

Vote: Benmage

Also, with 9 alive, at least 3 scum alive, and 3 kills per day, we're massclaiming today. Period. I'll unvote if I see a threat of a lynch before completed massclaim. My proposed order is as follows:

Benmage
Gamma
Nautilius
The Illuminati
Gut
DGB
Ban
Fate

Known claims:
Zachrulez: Invictus only
Tarhalindur: Bodyguard + Invictus

[Tarhalindur]

Okay, 10 alive, I miscounted. Doesn't matter, it's still on the outer edge of LyLo.

Any players who are claiming Scouter/Tracker should instead claim Invictus only initially and claim the ability + results after massclaim is done.

[Tarhalindur]

Lemme think about whether information from popcorn ordering outweighs the potential benefits of Tartown-driven massclaim (I *am* a massclaim specialist, you know).

Of course, if other players don't trust my order then it's a moot point.

DGB needs to elaborate on "vanilla". Then, if we popcorn, she needs to choose next target. (May I recommend Benmage?)

---

I like to read the dead scum's posts to find connections... Reading Duplicity is going to be a stupefying snoozefest, wish me luck. I'm sacrificing myself for the good of the collective.

VOTE: DGB

You are such a MERCIFUL GOD

Kill me

before

I feel compelled to drudge through his insipid and tedious body of work for evidence of soft bus'ing.

Nah, how about I point out that Duplicity posted a scumlist and let you go to town? I *know* how much you love digging for scum in scumlists...

Town, most to least:
1. Quil
2. Tar
3. Fate

4. Vitamin

5. Benmage

6. Dance (According to Regfan until I can get a solid read myself, for now you're the bottom of my list)

Probable Scum, most to least:
1. Silavor
2. Zach
3. Gut
4. DGB (Very subject to change depending on her answer to my question)
5. Ban (Leaning scum, needs more content)

Needs to post more content, biggest need to least:
1. Ban

2. BabySpice

3. Illuminati/DH

4. MoI[/color
5. Naut

Also note that Duplicity was white knighting out the ASS on BabySpice early D2.

More to come.

---

Thought of the day: Could Vi have borrowed one of my recent ideas (modified Jungle Republic) for this setup? I know that Vi's on one of the design/review teams where I was considering that idea, there are two possible Mafia flavors (Bugatti, Lamborghini) in the first post, and the observed kills make a LOT more sense if they come from an SK or unrevealed faction...

[Tarhalindur]

DGB needs to elaborate on "vanilla".

As in, invictus only.

Just checking.

[Tarhalindur]

Hmm.

Illuminati case is actually a good one. Especially given the Duplicity stuff (and how Dup was white knighting town, which makes Dup-Gamma less likely).

Let's see. Can Illuminati be scum with Duplicity AND Benmage?

Benmage D2:

In fact, you still haven't even confirmed your case on me.

The no case on me spiel is weak.

DGB's attack is weak, but the reasoning should be evident.

It is now, apparently because you reacted as scum. (I believe thats it)

Benmage D3:

Track results are fucking useless, if he didn't have a GUILTY there was no point in him claiming.

Are you going to work WITH me this game or not Benmage?

Gamma can do whatever the fuck he wants. His inability to be humbled or LISTEN to other people's reads after being so COMPLETELY WRONG isn't needed in this fucking town anyway.

I'm jsut moving at a slower pace right now.

Logic is still my friend.

You speedhammered SpyreX essentially.. And speedhammered Sila, while calling him town.. that raises eyebrows. That said I THINK UR TOWN.

And our invictus plan worked... cause that chic BS is unreadable.. the last time i tried I called her town and she was scum. Her death was a necessary evil that saved us from a mislynch.

Why Illuminati?

Thats true.. he woulda made a good invictus target.

One I'm unsure who to do today.

Why Illuminati? I remember DGB screaming about him.. haven't looked hard/ dont really remember.

Yeah, Dup/Ben/Illum scumteam is possible. (Fourth member is likely Naut in this case, outside chance of bussing Gamma.)

I'd still rather leave Illuminati until later and lynch a guaranteed scumbag (Ben or maybe Naut) today, mainly on the grounds that I'd rather not take the Gamma-Illum 50-50 when I could get much better odds elsewhere.

---

In other news, I personally still need to claim targets for Bodyguard. Preference as to whether I should do so before or after Trackers claim? (In other words, do you want me potentially counterclaiming trackers or the other way around?)

[Tarhalindur]

tar claim last.

Tar claimed already.

VOTE: Illuminati

Are you even reading the game anymore DGB? We're talking about when I claim targets (which I *haven't* claimed yet).

Also, NO MORE VOTING UNTIL MASSCLAIM IS DONE. (Sorry, after Spy wagon I don't want to take chances here.)

Speaking of that, Illuminati needs to claim already.

[Tarhalindur]

Given time issues, I no longer think we can afford to go in popcorn order. And I'm perfectly comfortable ignoring Illum at this point.

Illum, Nautilius, Benmage: Claim in your next post or die.

That directive will go to EVERYONE starting tomorrow (RL day).

[Tarhalindur]

Trackers should also fullclaim immediately.

[Tarhalindur]

Oh fuck it.

All other players claim in your next post or die.

I'll claim targets tomorrow night.

[Tarhalindur]

Naut's a hydra, Elli's one of the heads, Amrun's at L-1.

No longer want to lynch Amrun's slot today, I think that last post was genuine. (Not positive, but I'd rather invict the slot right now.)

Come on, everyone over to the Benmage wagon.

[Tarhalindur]

Naut's a hydra, Elli's one of the heads, Amrun's at L-1.

No longer want to lynch Amrun's slot today, I think that last post was genuine. (Not positive, but I'd rather invict the slot right now.)

Come on, everyone over to the Benmage wagon.

The VC WAS ON THAT FUCKIN PAGE

OBV SHE EWASNT HAMMERED

ARE YOU FOOLED SO GODDAMN EASILY NOW TAR?

Apparently so, but Zach's 1378 brought me back to my senses.

I call the sweet, sweet hammer of vengeance. Amrun knows why.

Still want to finish massclaim, want to clear as many players as possible.

[Tarhalindur]

I called hammer, I take hammer.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

SWEET SWEET VENGEANCE.

We'll deal with Benmage tomorrow.

[Tarhalindur]

Give it 24 hours, then Fate needs to claim.

Ban needs to claim in next post.

[Tarhalindur]

Claim your other results please, Ban.

(On the one hand, I've had a firm scum read on Benmage for ages... on the other hand, a sudden guilty at LyLo? I know which way I'm leaning, but Ban needs to claim the rest of his results before I settle either way - I'll be nice and fill in the implicit tracker claim for him.)

[Tarhalindur]

I was checking mainly to see if Ban had tracked me on a previous night, in order to see if I could confirm him as a Tracker.

He didn't, so here's my targets to date:
N1: DGB (figured that obvtown was obvkill)
N2: Fate (strong town read, figured scum wouldn't go after DGB)
N3: Fate (strongest town read, especially after DGB shot hers to hell)
N4: Ban (trying to find a townie that scum *might* kill - they killed a mislynch target instead >.<)

Unless somebody is following my procedure from yesterday and wishes to revise their claim... I'm inclined to believe the Ban claim:
1) One of my big reasons for pushing for massclaim was because I thought town was one power role (likely investigative, in which case we might get useful results) short, possibly plus a surviving Bulletproof. Oh look, a Tracker claim!
2) Claiming a result that *wasn't* on the dead player is a huge point in Ban's favor, since I've suspected that scum have a Scouter and/or Doctor for a while now.
3) Benmage was already a very likely Duplicity partner and my top candidate for lynch today.

HoS: Benmage

- will upgrade to vote later barring good reasons not to.

[Tarhalindur]

Ban: Doc + Scouter? I think Bulletproofs (coughGammacough) + Scouter is more likely, but that's just me.

I'll bus Nautilius, how's that sound Ban?

Ben has a special place in my house is all

Yeah NO.

You're asking that we lynch Nautilius over Benmage? Go back and read the fucking game. See that player who Benmage has been on the same wavelength with the WHOLE GAME? Yeah, that's FUCKING DUPLICITY who flipped FUCKING SCUM in a game with FUCKING DAYTALK. How is that NOT a scumbuddy tell?

The ONLY reason I'm not voting Benmage's ass like a ton of bricks right now is because I can't quite rule out Ban being scum with a cunning gambit. But lack of other power claims is a huge point in his favor, as is weak breadcrumbing.

[Tarhalindur]

Note: Assuming Benmage scum, invict Naut tonight if he flips Scouter and Fate/Gamma if he flips Doctor.

NO EXCEPTIONS. WE CANNOT AFFORD A MISSED INVICTUS TONIGHT.

Pre-post edit: Actually, if DGB doesn't come back it might be worth invicting Gamma even if Benmage flips Scouter.

[Tarhalindur]

Remember that post on the first page which I derped and misread D2?

This is the list of modules that -could- appear in the game. One role may have abilities not listed here. Remember, you may only use one (A) or (F-A) ability per Night.

(F-A)

<faction> Kill

- At Night you may target a player to kill them. Only one <faction> member may use this per Night. This is considered a primary kill.

(F-P)

<faction> Chat

- You may speak with your allies here.

(P)

Bulletproof

- The next kill that would resolve on you will fail. Afterward, this ability will do nothing. This resolves after

Bodyguard

. If you have multiple instances of

Bulletproof

, each instance of

Bulletproof

protects from a distinct kill.

(P)

Invictus

- At the beginning of the game, choose a player other than yourself. If you are killed at Night by a primary killing ability, you will kill the player you chose as you die. Kills made by

Invictus

are not considered primary kills. You may change your target for this ability at any time.

(A)

Bodyguard

- At Night you may target a player to redirect a single kill directed at them to you. If multiple Bodyguards target the same person, the order in which specific players' protects occur will be randomized. Your protection will fail if you target someone who is also targeting you with

Bodyguard

. If you redirect a primary kill to yourself, you count as killed by a primary killing ability for the purposes of

Invictus

.

(A)

Doctor

- At Night you may target a player to protect them from a single kill. This resolves after

Bodyguard

and

Bulletproof

.

(A)

Scouter

- At Night you may target a player to find out what (P) and (A) abilities (if any) the target possesses.

(A)

Tracker

- At Night you may target a player to find out who (if anyone) that player targeted that Night. This ignores

Invictus

targetings unless

Invictus

is actually triggered that Night.

(A)

Vigilante

- At Night you may target a player to kill them. This is considered a primary kill.

(W)

Win Condition (Town)

- You win when only players with

Win Condition (Town)

are alive, and at least one person is alive.

(W)

Win Condition (nonTown)

- You win when members of your faction make up at least half of the living players. When resolving Night actions this is checked after

<faction> Kill

and before

Invictus

.

(W)

Win Condition (Survivor)

- You win if you are alive and your removal from the game would trigger another Win Condition.

----

This is what a sample Role PM would look like.

~NAME~

GAME:

Mafia Invictus

LINK:

Here

ALLEGIANCE:

TOWN

FACTION:

[REDACTED]

Factional Abilities:
<none>

Passive Abilities:
(P)

Invictus

- At the beginning of the game, choose a player other than yourself. If you are killed at Night by a primary killing ability, you will kill the player you chose as you die. Kills made by

Invictus

are not considered primary kills. You may change your target for this ability at any time.

Active Abilities:
<none>

Win Condition:
(W)

Win Condition (Town)

- You win when only players with

Win Condition (Town)

are alive, and at least one person is alive.

Please confirm via PM with your initial

Invictus

target. I wish you the best of luck.

Yeah that post. Read the Faction Chat ability please.

[Tarhalindur]

Scumteam is Ban and Tar...Tar keeps waiting for 1 more to jump on me.

I call him a liar, he calls me scum... he doesn't vote me... scum needs to die.

Now tell me one thing... which one of you flat foots scared DGB off? We need her words of wisdom to motive the rest of you to do the right thing.

Ding ding ding! (Except for the DGB part.)

I'm NOT going to hammer just yet, though. Gimme 24 hours.

See, first order of business is figuring out who Benmage's buddies are so we can Invictus the hell out of them tonight.

So, who's not a Benmage buddy?

- Benmage (obviously)
- Ban (obviously)
- Tar (the player who caught Duplicity based on Benmage interactions and has wanted Benmage lynched ever since Dup flipped scum? Really?)

That leaves Fate, Gamma, Naut, and DGB.

Gut at this point says Gamma ISN'T scum (reaction to LyLo looks strongly pro-town, and on reread Duplicity pulled enough ). Given how MoI turned out and the fact that Gamma's showing basically the same reaction, I'm inclined to trust this change in read. At any rate, don't want to deal with it today.
Fate is almost guaranteed town if Benmage flips scouter, isn't a lock for scum even if Benmage flips doctor, and the player who most makes sense as a Fate buddy is Ban (who is only scum if Benmage is town). Leaning no, definite no if Benmage is Scouter.
Naut outed himself as scum D3. Remember the bullshit Zach case (and my demolition of it in 1138)?
DGB looked like her town self D1 (tone was ALL WRONG for single-scum game). She's looked increasingly worse since (I remember commenting at some point that my town read on her was shot to hell). More to the point:

Town, most to least:
1. Quil
2. Tar
3. Fate
4. Vitamin
5. Benmage
6. Dance (According to Regfan until I can get a solid read myself, for now you're the bottom of my list)

Arrrrrrrrrrrright. At last. Some meat from Professor Obfuscatski. There be one scum hidden in this list.

Quilford,

Tarhalindur

, Fate, and Benmage. I know Tar can't be scum, this was not a good time to bus, Tar had plenty of opportunity to lynch alternatives without losing town cred.

I don't need to read Duplicity, Korlash is always town in my heart.

Tar is scum. He started the game with grand hints that he was the Flying Pumpkin Filled With Special Snowflakes but the special snowflakes all melted into a stupid bodyguard role. And yet he's still alive. The scum never thought of killing him with his magnificent role.

Can we lynch Benmage now?

So, why the change of heart? And with the exact same logic I've been expecting scum to pull EVER SINCE I SURVIVED N3 to boot.

Also, I'm not sure DGB wasn't assuming multiscum D1...

Sorry DGBscum, you ran out of towncred and you ran out of mislynches. Nice work hiding from me for this long, though.

[Tarhalindur]

*does not quickhammer*

I said 24 hours and I'd hammer, I meant 24 hours and I'd hammer. No need to rush.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you should add Rule 12 to your setup. Friends don't let friends post in Mafia games while drunk.

[Tarhalindur]

(and drunk posting is fun, don't be hatin'. Although adding that rule that has the mod make fun of you in any/all drunk posts would certainly be a welcome addition)

I keep forgetting being facetitious doesn't translate well to text.

Rule 12 is still awesome. SPREAD THE MEME.

(Funny historical note: the users/mods who came up with the rule (on my first forum, now imploded) were some of the most notorious drunks on that forum.)

---

Fate, seriously, cab > drunk driving on a motorcycle. That latter is just begging for an accident, and then where will we get the true CAPS LAWKE experience from?

---

In other news, anyone (drunk or otherwise) have thoughts on who Ben's partners are? Or should I just go ahead and hammer early because nobody has anything of value to discuss? (I'm leaning towards a 50-50 between invictusing Naut and DGB right now.)

[Tarhalindur]

Hammer? But it's only been 18 hours, not 24!

Okay, okay. We're not getting any new productive material out of this day anyways, I've proved that I wasn't going to quickhammer (and thus that Tarscum, Benmagetown is impossible), no point in keeping people waiting.

Only potentially superior suggestion to Gamma's current night plan is to random 50-50 on Invictus (to keep scum guessing) and have Ban random between tracking Naut and DGB. But it really shouldn't matter and on the off chance scum don't kill me the plan confirms me, so whatever.

Last vote of mine in this game (unless Mafia is really stupid or has Tar over Mafia shenanigans to use) here I go...

=======[]

Vote: Benmage

[Tarhalindur]

Reminder, tomorrow is about lynching whichever one of DGB and Naut are still alive after my invictus.

Ban, Fate, you're both town, I leave this to your capable hands.

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: And Gamma, who has finally proven his town credentials to my satisfaction.

[Tarhalindur]

I'd pieced together the possibility of DGB over Naut but since Naut wasn't going to Invict himself and I figured Gamma was more likely to invict correctly than DGB (if town)*... didn't matter, that was one hell of a bus.

- Should have gone with Plan A (Guard Gamma, Invict DGB), but it wouldn't have mattered.

[Tarhalindur]

Hah, I've got a few MetaMafia ideas running around (pity I won't actually get to play them...). Lemme get up a design QT soon. (There's more than a few older MafiaScum users who still need riffing on, plus a few other obvious suspects, and I've figured out a potential upgrade to the Powerful Wizard mechanic.)

In other news, wow DGB's changed scum meta since I took a site break.

Fate: Hate to say it, but Bodyguard's the one flip that could convince me you were scum (Doctor no, Bodyguard yes).

Also my bodyguard choices sucked this game.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, before I forget again - the category headlines weren't lyrics this time, obviously. They were state mottos.

--

@CSL: That was a certain wacky Clefairy.
Hey, nobody has run a (good) "half the player list dies N1" game in a while.

I've been offsite for a while. Gimme a break here, people.

(This setup *would* have been well served by making 1-shot Vig a valid option and putting a town player with two of those in the game.)