DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

[Magister Ludi]

I'm in favor of total war.

The standard non-total war route has lynchings and debates and flips and what have you. It will be a standard game of mafia until about day three. Same old mafia strategy.

Going straight to total war gives a ton of players the abilitiy to go with nukes. Not only is this a ton of fun, but it also means that potential hotheads have the ability to annihilate any given player at any time. This means town could die, yes, but it also means that any lurking/apathetic scum expecting to play a normal game will get destroyed.

The scum will be forced to play and be active and try and make false cases, and in such an enviroment, scum are a lot easier to find.

Essentially, total war cuts out the lurk mode for scum.

It is the optimally play.

[Magister Ludi]

No nukes in the hands of town hot-heads with a penchant for destruction

[Magister Ludi]

Gorilla, I detailed it in my post, but people will be forced into activity otherwise they will die. How is that a bad thing?

[Magister Ludi]

I'm still interested in what people have to say on the subject. Just because you're hot to trot on the subject doesn't mean I agree with you or that others will too.

There are always more lurkers as a percentage of the scum team then the town team. (You don't believe this?)

Lurkers should be targeted with nukes.

[Magister Ludi]

Datapoint: Dynasty Warriors Mafia. (SPyreX, back me up here)

[Magister Ludi]

Just confirming, scum who generally did not much of anything, lurked in plain site and won the game. Yes, same one. (battle of the one game sample sizes going on here)

"but whether a lurker is more likely to be scum than a non-lurker."

Not going too deep into this, but if three players are lurking, and one is scum, It is probably beneficial to nuke them all. At worst, two town die and the remaing scum get active as all hell. I would take that deal. And that's only dealing with lurking. (fluff posts etc.)

The threat of nukes is like the threat of hammer L-1. People suddenly get very in-depth, detailed and give quite good reads at that point. It is the invisible hand (shout out: Smith)

I mean, we're going to get there despite your best efforts. If you had the choice, I take it you would want to stay in Defcon 2 forever?

[Magister Ludi]

"Magister, your stance is completely contradictory. You're stating that it's safest to go total war to give nukes to hothead players ie. Players that will be rash in regards to who they shoot, then you're stating you want lurkers nuked."

Not quite what I am saying. (This isn't worth belaboring since it isn't going to happen) I was saying it is optimal play for town to go straight into defcon one. It certainly isn't safer, but that is what makes it better for town. Because scum will know some players have nukes, they will be less likely to lurk otherwise the will GET nuked by said players.

Hot-heads aren't nessesarily rash (where did you come up with that), they are impulsive. I for example, would nuke a scummy looking lurker on sight. Ergo, scum will not lurk, will be forced into activity, and will probably be caught out since an active scum role is a lot harder to pull off then not.

By the way, I didn't like how you tried to twist my words there to imply I was saying something I was not.

[Magister Ludi]

Also, general question, In the previous defcon game, were the scum more or less active then normal?

[Magister Ludi]

I'm actually highly interested about the answer to my previous questions from a players perspective.

Lady, are you proposing specfic members of the game go and pick the 'roles scum want dearly' (Could you clarify what these are in your own opinion) Or are you proposing that 'town' players in general should go for the scum roles. I could see the first mode working, but the second one is definently hit and miss.

Also, am I right in my assumption that there is only one of these roles going to be in the game total? Only one battleship, fighter, etc?

[Magister Ludi]

Now with that clarification: (one of the better roles is already off the table due to terrorist activities if I am correct?)

[Magister Ludi]

Katsuki, I don't see why we need a well thought out plan or anything.

Just allocate four players to first pick each of the roles. According to how this 'works', there is probably only one of the four players scum and so town picks up every power role.

[Magister Ludi]

"PEdit: SDC. Joy. Make you a deal. You can lynch me D1/D2 if you agree that when I flip town, you get lynched in return. I'll even self vote."

??? Why would you do this? If you are town, why not just generally push for a Death Clan lynch? what is gained from you dying along the way?

[Magister Ludi]

Reg, you're scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Mina actually makes a good point against swift justice. (about recieving a town read before doing anything) Too often I see scum throwing out town reads in an attempt to 'get in the good books' of town players, making themself a less attractive lynch target.

[Magister Ludi]

All these town----->scum lists floating around now need to dissipate. I don't need a laundry list of every player in the game (who everyone also happens to be reading), what people need is pointed attacks on those doing scummy things.

Socio: "This just in: Toasty is now high ranking scums."

Can you back this up? Toasty seems to be one of those perennial players scum like to latch onto in efforts to mislynch.

[Magister Ludi]

This needs clarifaction:

Alamaster, does the Terrorist get to first pick a troop deployment without interference?

(Also, Screaming Death, can you stop using caps so much.)

(The terrorist receives a free additional selection of their choice in addition to participating in the draft. Their selection is not removed from the draft pool. --AGM)

[Magister Ludi]

Reg, It is a common occurence (in my experience) for scum to simply declare a player "town" for no apparent reason because it is an easy read to make (they know they aren't wrong) and it makes the town player less likely to want to lynch them (because the other player has correctly 'figured' out theri alignment) and it looks as if the scum is doing something.

The game of mafia is pretty simple, all the town members are trying to figure out eachothers alignment and who doesn't belong, and then form up together with mutual town reads to beat the scum. A pro-town voting block is very hard to beat. (which is why scum either want to be in it or prevent it from happening)

A read of XXXX is town because of YYY and this means ZZZ is definently a town mindset. It represent thoughtfulness (figuring stuff out etc)
A read of XXXX is town period is a scum mindset.
A read of YYYY is town because of crappy reasons that don't maker a player town is a scum mindset.

(This is what happened with Swift)

So, no, mentioning reads and explaining them is basically the essence of mafia, and is not a scum tell in the slightest. Its how you back it up those reads that is important.

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty, would you mind giving me a read (or even sentence or two) on the following players:

Reg
Swift
Socio

I'm interested in your thoughts, and there is no reason to wait until DEFCON 3 to hear them.

[Magister Ludi]

Vi: "What about giving scum reads before the player does anything? (i.e. RedCoyote)"

I don't understand what you mean. Redcoyote hasn't said anything so far. Do you mean another player?

[Magister Ludi]

When was this? (Can you link it?)

[Magister Ludi]

Can you stop 'internet screaming' (despite your penchant for doing it), get back in your hydra and actually link to some games that back up your point?

I mean, that could certainly be a valid argument/point. But Is there anything really else about Vi that screams 'scum' to you?

[Magister Ludi]

Redcoyote

1. "Still, this is assuming lurkers would be taken out by those with nukes. A fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless."

No. Because town has nukes, and ability to shoot them, scum dont want to lurk, and be a target.

2. "Wow. No. No freaking way. Lists aren't made public, so there's about a 0% chance of scum following through on whatever orders you give them.

Either you just made a naive comment or you're scummy for this, and you don't strike me as the naive type. "

Um, no. What I was inquiring at around the beginning of defcon 4 was if we publicly (in thread) allocated 4 players to each role. It was said somewhere that the more people picking each role, less likely scum were to get it. Obviously scum could deviate, but it would be detrimental to them. How is this statement in any way shape or form scummy?

3.

ML 338 wrote:
All these town----->scum lists floating around now need to dissipate. I don't need a laundry list of every player in the game (who everyone also happens to be reading), what people need is pointed attacks on those doing scummy things.

"So you don't want to know what people are thinking? Maybe you won't have to if we go ahead and lynch you first, eh? I like how you say this and turn around and say..."

This is a complete misrepresentation. I could easily apply your above 'naive statement' to you. Laundry list is a random list of town to scum. I never said that I didn't want to know what people are thinking, infact, I asked for pointed statements from people on their biggest scum reads. And where and why in god's name does this go to lynching? Can you explain the chain of logic

ML 344 wrote:
Toasty, would you mind giving me a read (or even sentence or two) on the following players

"Get out of here with this."

What part of pointed reads on those players I consider scum from someone else whose alignment I am trying to figure out is scummy at all? You are majorly grasping at straws here. Trying to get mutual reads from other players is very protown.

Red, I'm not sure what you were using for your logic, but it is pretty wrong and illogical. Your good/great/etc lynch list I don't agree with much at all.

[Magister Ludi]

I am going to be nuking (should I have a nuke) the player with the lowest post count as soon as we get to DEFCON 1. Don't be that player.

[Magister Ludi]

Holy shit Pooky and Internet Stranger are hilarious. I like their style.

[Magister Ludi]

SypreX, give credit where its due on that quote attributed to Magua but actually me.

~~~~~~

Vote RedCoyote (L-11)

Flawed reasoning at every turn.

[Magister Ludi]

The feeling is like a fine cup of hot chocolate as the gentle pitter patter of rain beings to rap lightly upon the earth.

~~~~
(Reading Hez and Aururous now)

[Magister Ludi]

(Vi and SpyreX, what does this acronym mean: TMI?)


I'm now completely behind this RedCoyote wagon (if that is any more possible after his god awful reasoning in DefCon4) Most of what has been said about his terrible idea of creating a counterwagon to someone he thinks is 'scum' for no apparent reason, and then backtracking, I agree with. It's just a terrible order of logic.

Red also said this lynches for today should be "AV, dana, ML, Pooky, or SDC today. In that order." Now, not only do I have town reads on the last two (three :p), but I'm not particularly militant to get on the wagon of the other two. This list of lynches is plain bad, and when someone has four or more reads I dont agree with, I consider them a strong case for scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Swift Justice still needs death. The wagon start on a player with no votes whilst avoiding the two larger (three at the post) wagons is definently not a town tell.

As for Hez, he probably needs to launch a nuke at another scummy player and then eat one himself. He suddenly comes alive while under some sembalance of pressure, changes his playstyle a bit for unknown benefits, and bad reads don't give me town feelings at all.

As for AV, I haven't seen a case on him that I've particularly liked, and as for his wagon, there is only one, maybe two... (Mina and SDC/Magua) people I consider town on it at this time. I think he is more town than not.

[Magister Ludi]

(Thanks Gamma)

From Magna of Illusion:

"I don't dispute that Socio is playing in a scummy manner. He goes out of his way to do that. The problem is going to be getting a viable wagon going. Because by my assessment we have a sizeable number of players in this game who will take the stance of "Nah, I'm not going to vote Sociopath because I like playing with him. Even if he is scum".

I think barking up that tree is not worth the effort. He best turned into a glowing, radioactive crater the minute we hit DEFCON1."

This is bad reasoning. If you think someone is playing in a scummy manner (as Socio is in fact doing), you don't pass it up or fail to call them out on it. You try and push the wagon. The fact that you also consider him acting in a scummy manner, but not worth lynching, but nukeable, is not a stance I understand or expect to come from a town point of view.

If Socio is your number one scum read, it makes no sense to try and let him go without pushing on him, as town wants all scum players dead, not down the track. This post just feels... off. Coming from a scum sided rather than town sided ideology. (if thats the correct word there)

[Magister Ludi]

Triple post, but I missed Gorilla. I hate his last post. 759 reads as reluctant buddy looking to push RC wagon, not to hard, but wants credit if/when it goes through.

(I guess an iso is in order to see what else he has done that backs this up.)

[Magister Ludi]

Gamma, what are you expecting Hez to say that would change your mind about anything? (I wouldn't mind a hammer right now.)

SpyreX, is there a reason you have asked several people to give reads on me even though you consider me town? Maybe you've done this for other people as well, but It's happened 2-3 times already for me.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, that makes sense, and I missed SpyreX's post saying he was willing to hammer at once.

[Magister Ludi]

Swamped by graduation and other such things. More posts coming over next few days.

Anti-town:

Gorilla
MagnaofIllusion
SwiftJustice
Sociopath

More obviously. Hez needs a nuke.

AV wagon is meh. Not joining.

Vote: Gorilla

Happy to switch.

Saw one question aimed at me. MoI, yes.

[Magister Ludi]

I am going to be NO access until Saturday night pacific standard time. ( from graduation ---> Orientation)

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: GORILLA

No sidetracking today.

[Magister Ludi]

Bring on the nukes.

Gorilla is not only not confirmed town, I think he is scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Regfan is for the nukes!

Cases are bogus in general, but I can highlight specific points if you want.

The reasons I am continuing voting him from yesterday are that his comment about the RedCoyote wagon struck me as wrong and scum sided, when his wagon had the makings of taking off AV got lynched, and I'm not getting much of a pro-town feeling from his posts.

~~~~~

Why do you think the doc (battleship) would protect gorilla Magua?

[Magister Ludi]

Swift, you can't pusedo attack me for voting gorilla and then subtly imply that you think gorilla may in fact be scum. This weird chain of logic needs explaining.

Fate, get back in your hydra.

Hez, I didn't answer your question yesterday because I was V/LA during that time period. You're still in the midrange to scum end of a vast possible spectrum of possible reads, and at this point in the game, all those people should be nuked. So, yes.

~~~~~
Why are there no nukes flying right now despite many promises. (mine included, but there is a reason for that)

Lets just cut the crap and nuke down to the following three players: Myself, Mina, and Toastytoast. That should be a win for town.

Does anyone:

a.not have a town read on these players and
b.oppose this plan.

Lets go.

[Magister Ludi]

Too, who would you choose as three "chosen survivors"? You must have a town read on three people right?

How is gorilla a 'easy mislynch target'? I think I was the first vote on him yesterday, so it is not opportunistic at all. I think his whole body of work indicate scum, not just after some arbitary time you choose.

And here's a hint: I dont have a nuke.

[Magister Ludi]

Someone should actually just nuke dana now. I am not sold on his protowniness this game, and his nuke is terrible

~~~~

Hez, there is no way that I am not going to put the one confirmed town I am 100 percent sure about about, myself, on a short list of three people to survive all of these nukes flying about.

I'm now of the opinion the following people should get nuked:

Screaming Death Clan
Swift Justice
Magna
dana
(debating Hez here too)

SDC Doesn't get a town read at all from me. As to the night kill, I was under the impression that katsuki and the SDC had played so many games together that they could read eachother very easily, so Its more likely if katsuki died that SDC is scum.

If all these people die, that leaves:
gorilla
MagisterLudi
Hez
(Hopefully hinduragi as dana cancels)
inhim
IS
LL
Magua
Mina
Pooky
Regfan
toasty
toog

I'd be very comfortable lynching and nuking from there.

[Magister Ludi]

Unless you can back that up with multiple points of evidence, I am going to say that is a weak opinion which I don't know where you got from.

If you can convince me I'm wrong, I'll change my mind, but I find that unlikely.

~~~
Yeah, I don't suspose you like the short list considering you are on it. It still stands.

[Magister Ludi]

Bring personal meta into a game is irrelevant, I evaluate how someone plays and determine if they are scum or town based on that. I think he is much more likely than not to be scum.

~~~~
I want the scummiest players eliminated first, yes. That is clear and logical and I don't see how that is a problem with you. however, if the game isn't over by that point, then there are thirteen more players still living, with scum among them. The obvious recourse is to keep eliminating the scummiest players.

All of this is probably going to happen today, as we are only using nukes and nukes don't end the day. So yes, it is probable once all the nukes hit and the short list is nuked as well that someone on the 'long' list may die.

~~~~~

[Magister Ludi]

The only person 'bussing' or 'dont bus me' would seem to apply to is hez or gorilla, as both had large wagons (more than one or two votes) during DEFCON 3 and 2.

I am happy to see both dead.

[Magister Ludi]

Hez now moves up to the short list. (That plus calling yourself obv-town when that is the farthest word I would use to describe your play)

Gorilla is the one supplying us with the information, (via eavsdrop) so, yeah, he can't be the one they are talking about.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually,

I reread Hez as scum.

Swift is probable town. Gorilla makes sense as town.

~~~~

Unvote
Vote: Hezlucky

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty, I was voting for gorilla, not Regfan. As far as I'm concerned, for being the lowest poster, Regfan should get a nuke.

[Magister Ludi]

Whats the problem to reducing the playing field to four really strong town reads?

We could be wrong? Yeah, its always possible, but I trust myself to at least reason out two or three other townies over the course of an entire game.

[Magister Ludi]

Stop sending and canceling your nukes guys,

~~~~

Still would be happy with SDC death, Hez death, lowposter Regfan death.

~~~~

[Magister Ludi]

Swiftjustice has already been nuked by Revenge of Wei, And is going to die. That was an attempted quote If I am not mistaken.

Can someone nuke Hez already?

[Magister Ludi]

Why hasn't Hez 'fired away' then?

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, I think pooky is town, and I don't think any scum nuked other scum as it is just as easy to nuke town and get away with it.

Regfan coming alive to post content when nukes like imminent is bad.

~~~~
Thursday should shed come light on the rest of this game, but I think we know how the flips are going to go (Gamma and Wei scum). I still reccomend nuking SDC or Hez.

[Magister Ludi]

When that communication we deciphered, Hez looks very likely like scum.

The fact he was pushing really hard on you in 1099 doesn't read like a bus, he definently wanted to get a lynch off. The fact that he voted you,

Also, I'm tacking on a vote. See my iso #45 / post #1099 for why.

Vote: Swift Justice

Confirms this.

This backhanded attempt to cast mud makes him look even more anti-town, and you guys scum.

Pretty sure I've read Swift Justice's first post on Page 62 right. It reads nearly word for word for one of his earlier posts. He is merely tryign to look useful and is scum that needs to die.

~~~~
Actually, Gamma voted Regfan earlier today. I'm uncomfortable with a Regfan nuke at this point. Maybe after a few others

[Magister Ludi]

Magua, why is Hez off the table?

Screaming Death Clan, by far.

[Magister Ludi]

In Greece you could retire at age 53! (with big pensions!) Those Euro's don't know the value of hard work

I haven't been slogging through the last 10 pages seriously, because they're mostly all 'party' spam. Hez still needs death.

I'll be back after nukes tomorrow to sort all this crap out.

[Magister Ludi]

You should be nuked.

[Magister Ludi]

eh, spamming caps doesn't change the fact you've not acted in a protown manner all game. You're more likely scum than town. Thats why you need to be nuked.

[Magister Ludi]

Unvote: Hezlucky
Vote: RegFAN

FOS: Mina
FOS: Danakillsu

~~~~~~

Vote:IS
(he should actually be nuked but whatev's)

Stuff
Looked through ooba's iso and gorilla might have been the n1 result- he didn't comment on much so it could just be agreeing with magua about letting scum kill him but given that plus the earlier stuff I've said about him likely being town I don't want him deads.

Vi is a lot shadier than in other games with it but I still think that IS is more likely to be scum

Still think Magua is town

Ludi has looked town plus has Spy's Seal of Townitude

dana is also still town, the read of hez reads as very legitimate

Hindu should absolutely die and Socio can go with him

aaand I'm fairly sure that one of LLD & JUSTICE is scum given both of their early play being off- Between the two I'd nuke LLD first as justice's stating that he's expecting to die looked town and retaliating towards LLD like that would be super ballsy as scum.

Additional reads or clarifications available for the Low Low price of a cookie and asking nicely.

Hindu, LLD, gorilla all seem to be town by this. I would expect him to comment on two buddies minimum here, we have Vi scum, and that leaves dana in the weak buddy clearing towntell category. Dana as scum

Magister Ludi wrote:
Lets just cut the crap and nuke down to the following three players: Myself, Mina, and Toastytoast. That should be a win for town.

If this can actually happen AND you guys promise to lynch toasty if the game isn't over I am totally down for it. I think you guys would have to wait until tommorrow though given the number of non-nuke abilities in the game.

Why does Gamma say this as scum unless one of these three players is scum (otherwise he loses the game). The fact that he suggest lynching toasty makes no sense as a buddy, and I know i'm not scum, so it has to be Mina here.

-And it's a better nuke but Regfan isn't a bad lynch.
Unvote, Vote:Regfan

hez, dana is still town.

Yeah, I can see the buddies.

~~~~

FOR THE BLOOD GOD, throw Regfan in there too for lying straight up in thread.

Not seeing this but scum for a different reason

Vi casts weak suspicion but then never follows up.

There are a bunch of people I'd love to see dead. IS, SDC,

you

[MoI], LLD, Hinduragi,

AV

, Mina,

Swift Justice

, etc. etc.

There is at least one scum in this mini list Vi brings forward D1. IS seems insanely town now that Vi is dead. LLD does as well, leaving SDC, Mina (wow surprise???) and Hinduragi. SDC may, unfortunately, be town. Leaving Mina and Hind, and I believe it is Mina.

Town:

Katsuki

, Magister Ludi, HezLucky,

Gammagooey

Maybe Town:

SpyreX,

inHimshallibe, ooba, Magua
Land of Nulldom: ToastyToast, Toogeloo,

AurorusVox, Swift Justice,

danakillsu
Maybe Scum: Hinduragi, Regfan,

MagnaofIllusion,

Mina,

RedCoyote

Scum: Lady Lambdadelta, Screaming Death Clan,

Internet Stranger

In Limbo: PookyTheMagicalBear,

SocioPath

No way Vi puts Hez buddy scum along with Gamma in the town category, two out of four buddies is not happening. All his (her?) scum reads are probable town as well. Leaving the middle sections to sort out.

~~~~~

Yeah, after reading, I'm pretty confident in these reads.

[Magister Ludi]

Fate, I mentioned you in the middle. OR rather, the SDC hydra.

I already mentioned I don't have a nuke.

[Magister Ludi]

Eh, I've looked over the reasons people are voting me, and Its basically a combination of 'wow you're giving off weird vibes' and things that I can't even respond to because they are not eloborated on.

I'm not the lynch for today. My reason has been consistent when It has to be, and has changed when new information has presented itself. Yeah, I changed my reads, but thats because I actually went back an reread this thread a little so I'm not stuck in a rage tunnel because your posting style is quite frankly pissing me off and anti-town.

I'd rather win the game for town that sit around and brag in the dead thread or just spam away hoping people get my message. If you (fate) have a legitamte reason to vote me, I'd actually like to hear it so can dispprove it and can get your vote moved round to actually lynching people who have been doing anti-town and scummy stuff.

~~~~~
Swift, I didn't put that big list in because I thought his later stuff was more pertinent. I had some thoughts on that too if you wanted to hear it.

~~~
(for the record, Regfan thinks Mina is really town as well)

[Magister Ludi]

What was 'popular suspicion'?? Is that some bingo term? I barely read the intermitent 10 pages of you and socio counter spamming eachother, but It was basically eachother calling the other scum.

Yeah, I could try and argue for lynching people I don't think are scum anymore, but that is actively anti-town. I want to lynch scum not town.

I view those three other people as highly more likely scum, and Vi's interaction with you as not making you scummy.

Any questions?

[Magister Ludi]

If you're going to start with the position that I'm scum not matter what, you exist in a flawed position. I'm not scum, but I strongly believe Regfan is scum based on his lurking behavior, actual content and the other two known scums interactions with him.

It makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, and his nuke is terribly aimed for no apparent reason, which is hugely anti-town.

[Magister Ludi]

I think I read swift justice pages ago asking me to respond to the 'cases' on me. Well, there aren't any that I can respond to, which is fustrating. There is no solid reason at all why people are voting me.

Its more people I suspected at one point (Hez, gorilla, SDC) and random spamming thats brought up this sentiment.

pooky is voting because I have fallout shelter? Its hard to even answer such logic because there is none..

~~~

Yeah, at this point, I don't think Mina is town at all. I've give you all my reads on who is scum.

[Magister Ludi]

No. I think the only strong town read held by many others and myself at one point That I've read as scum is Mina.

I don't think Mina is town at all right now, and I believe I expressed it when I did my catch up post. Questions surround her include why Gamma would be willing to lynch down to me her and Toasty, why other scum Regfan has consistently listed her as town as well, and a subtle bus Vi did in day one of not putting her very high up on his town reads reads as scum

Scum pokeshots? I hardly see it that way, more I changed who I thought was scum based on actually rereading the game thread. Its useful to read the intermitent play of Defcon 4 and 3 while looking at Vi and Gamma for buddies.

[Magister Ludi]

Hinduragi, what are you even talking about. I thought it was obvious from the beginning of DEFCON one I not only didn't have a nuke (when I said that). After about halfway in, after all other claims, it should have been obvious I was Fallout Shelter as well.

I don't understand how this is 'doing it wrong', unless you mean writing it out in size 200 font so people don't have to actually read posts in detail but have it spoon fed to them.

I went for my list
1. Fallout
2. Airbase
3. other

[Magister Ludi]

Unvote

Vote: Danakillsu

~~~
Mina has sadly no chance of being lynched today. I think this would actually be the best play.

[Magister Ludi]

Hind, every role has been claimed today except for that retaliation one If I am not mistaken.

~~~
I can't even respond to your logic pooky because your logic is so antitown and not based on anything (he is bulletproof.... lets lynch him!). Is there any other (valid perhaps?) reason you think I may not be town?

[Magister Ludi]

I put in number one because I thought it would be useful to not be nuked if I was playing town and scum decided to go out by nuking me. (Which was actually emminently possible entering day 3, I'm still not sure where this wagon has come from). For example Hind, if your top town read today had fallout shelter, you would think it was a very good move to make scum waste a night kill.

~~~
Fate, can you actually explain your what your vote is based on or is 2275 it?

[Magister Ludi]

What does 'wrong reasons' mean when there are no god damn reasons in the first place.

Listen, town still wins If I'm dead and Mina and dana die tomorrow or today. But, I know I'm town, so why wouldn't I stop this nonsence.

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Regfan has claimed scum already. Do you think he is town?

[Magister Ludi]

Fate, talking to you is like talking to a little kid. I've asked you for your reason voting me (which you've basically said you have none), and you've responded by just spamming this thread and crying about not getting your way.

Can you give me something to work with?

~~~~
I'm pissed because everyone is just shouting from every rooftop that I am either not town because A. I changed my reads B. called the "confirmed town LOLOL" scum or C. they feel like it. Yeah, its impossible to argue any of this nonsence because its all true and all not anti-town in any way shape or form.

[Magister Ludi]

At this point, town only needs one town read to win this game. Get it down to four or three people with one scum, and have the two scummiest cross nuke, (or be lynched on sight), or with four people, cross nuke and lynch the third.

~~~~~
I think Internet Stranger should be the one.

[Magister Ludi]

I can't even count the number of times 'being defensive' or 'overly defensive' is used as a scum tell when Its not in the slightest. When people are attacking me and I know I am town, I am going to respond in as much depth and as many times until the people attacking me stop and their logic is refuted. Its not anti-town, If I let people just get away with saying I am doing scummy things when I am not, it for one allows people to randomly dogpile on because 'he has no defense!!!' and two I allow false accusations to stand alone.

Yeah, I don't have hours upon hours just to sit and spam this game, Its a fun outlet for me. I'm not going to yell louder it pointless and makes the person doing it look like a fucking idiot. I think my cases are sound (which you disagree with, but that doesn't mean they are wrong). Plus, I took fallout shelter. So?

[Magister Ludi]

I posted them on that semi-wall. ANd reposted a bit on mina above.

[Magister Ludi]

No, being defensive is not a scum-tell.

I'm willing to say I would be uncomfortable with those two being in the top ten, and either being in the final five people alive would be a disaster.

~~~

Hingruagi, its Ludi.

[Magister Ludi]

I'm not even pissed off just bemused and kind of sad, because its that posting that people enjoy and like and support. (I'm off for the rest of the night, so feel free to spam away (fate etc etc) about your great votes and whatever)

p-edit: No, I think they are scum.
~~~

Also, The fact that we are even considering a lynch when we still have nukes to direct is ridiculous as well. Yeah, I can respond to more of these accusation if I need to before our last few nukes are fired, but even one more scum flip could change who looks scum in relation to who.

~~~

I am town no shit I want to live as long as possible. Use big boy logic next time Fate.

(also to Faraday and LOL Vi is a genius argument with scum lists, you think he would put two buddie in the obvious town list? Yeah, no.)

[Magister Ludi]

As town you would accept your own death?

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, because we knew all those roles were town aligned at the beginning of day one, fate...

[Magister Ludi]

(???) If doctor or cop was scum aligned, plan falls apart. When cop claims, cop is auto-blocked for whole game. The terriost has all sorts of his own power roles. Yeah, in hindsight with everything we know, having an undaykillable townie (until night four when the doctor is dead probably) would be awesome. But its impossible to know at the beginning this was the way thigs swung, and I wuold simply have been killed night 4 or 5 or whatever before lylo.

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty and Mina still have nukes to direct. No more votes until that time.

~~~

xReckx, you played with me scum in Speed Mafia. Am I scum here?

~~~

inhim, I still don't accept I am the 'only viable lynch today'. If your vote is going to come becuase I'm fallout shelter and nothing else, I disagree with that because I again say it is not anti-town and ask you to provide other reasons.

[Magister Ludi]

Toogoo, I have no idea why made you think that way. I covered some of those posts already, and when compared with Gamma as well, I think Reg is scum. Which is actually moot, because he's going to be nuked, So I have no idea what you gain by postering about his flip when it will be upon us in two or so days.

~~~~
Mina and Toasty, launch your nukes.

Toasty, who are you nuking?

~~~~

Hez, why am I a good lynch? Because I advocated for your own lynch?

[Magister Ludi]

Mina, whats your read on dana. And why are you going to nuke Hez? Thats a bad nuke at this point.

[Magister Ludi]

Obviously I haven't committed any scum tells because I'm town. If you can explain your problem with how i've played, I can explain to you how they each came from a town mindset way of thinking.

Simply saying that i'm unkillable is a godawful reason for me being scum. For one, thats equivalent to being bulletproof in a regular game, and thats actually quite a strong reason not to lynch someone. For two, If I can convince you i'm town instead of you just accepting it for gospel I'm not, scum will be forced to nightkill because otherwise town auto wins (as all nukes are goign to be flying tomorrow)

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty, whats your read on Mina

Mod: I am voting for dana

[Magister Ludi]

Thank god for internet stranger in this thread.

[Magister Ludi]

LOL Faraday. Hold up.......

Fun and games and antics aside if I had to pick ONE person to survive a true Armageddon and stand victorious (assuming not me yadda yadda) - it'd be you {Magister Ludi}. That's the kind of gut read I have

[Magister Ludi]

Question,

1. why did Revenge of Wei nuke very null-leaning scummy read Swift Justice (by many players, over several other choice who had already nuked scum)?

2. Why did Gamma say this:

Magister Ludi wrote:

Lets just cut the crap and nuke down to the following three players: Myself, Mina, and Toastytoast. That should be a win for town.

If this can actually happen AND you guys promise to lynch toasty if the game isn't over I am totally down for it. I think you guys would have to wait until tommorrow though given the number of non-nuke abilities in the game

.

And then WANTED toasty lynched. I'm not scum, so who must it be... MINA!

[Magister Ludi]

Again, Mina, what is your read on dana? And who are you thinking of nuking? Hezlucky suddenly becomes not scum when you know nuking him might spell your death? Thats not self preservationist anti-town at all....

[Magister Ludi]

IS final one.

[Magister Ludi]

I would have like Mina to have been fail-safed by Hezlucky. That would have gotten rid of Mina, yeah. If you think he's super duper scum, why aren't you voting him?

~~~
Mina, you completley misinterpreted me when you say I have confirmation bias about scum being on every list, because I never said that.

Whats your read on dana?
Why do you think revenge of Wei nuked rather neutral Swift Justice?

[Magister Ludi]

mina:

Whats your read on dana?
Why do you think revenge of Wei nuked rather neutral Swift Justice?

[Magister Ludi]

In Hind's scenario, all you need is another person alive who everyone thinks is town and most probably is and then the town wins.

[Magister Ludi]

No, its not obvtown at all. I didn't latch onto any argument.

Its not just Vi's lists, its a combination of his lists, Gamma's list, a little of Regfan (who I consider confirmed scum) and Mina's overall play.

[Magister Ludi]

Toogeloo, if we're using lists for anything, Tell me what you think about Vi putting two scum buddies in the "town section"

[Magister Ludi]

So you think Vi put two buddies in the town section which is essentially suicide if both flip scum and he is still alive in the game?

[Magister Ludi]

I've outlined cases on Mina AND dana. Both of who I think I'm scum Besides doing that, I've had to defend myself against half this town clammoring for my lynch for no apparent reason.

Why do you think I am scum toogeloo? You thought I was scum before the day started, yeah?

[Magister Ludi]

hmm, Well considering I did go V/LA and had other things on the monday and tuesday,

I am going to be NO access [from Wed]until Saturday night pacific standard time. ( from graduation ---> Orientation)

That argument hold no weight really. Yeah, It was across games, so I didn't get a chance to post anything. After that, I had some mild suspicion on me, but I thought I had played town enough that that and a few flips would force it to go away, and like half my wagon was being nuked (by town players incidentily).

~~~

Can you explain what was opportunistic early on that has made you so uncomfortable with reading me as town? I think my logic has been pretty consistent here, and the my interaction with two known scums and potentially a third one I should think make it easier to view me as town.

~~~

[Magister Ludi]

Anyways, I pretty certain of town reads on Hez and Internet Stranger right now, maybe less so on Gorilla, and i'm not certain about the rest.

It could actually be possible that all the remaining power roles are town. Let me read a little more. Scum would be much more likely to go for the powerful roles or a nuke, eschewing the less powerful fighter and espionage and what not. It doesn't make sense to hamper your team by taking fail safe for instance, instead, get a nuke and nuke away on town people. (as Revenge of Wei Did)

[Magister Ludi]

I still have had no really concrete reason why Revenge of Wei nuked Swift Justice and NOT somebody who had already nuked scum or was the 'obvious-obvious super duper protown' mina. It makes a whole hell of a lot of sense if Mina is scum.

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty and ML both are overdefensive

The whole "being defensive is a scum tell" thing is, and has always been, bogus. Everyone should always defend themselves in detail against any reasonable accusation (and against most unreasonable ones as wll).

If you're town, and someone's calling you scum, either their facts are wrong, their logic is wrong, they're jumping to conclusions incorrectly, or at the very least their argument is inconclusive. One of those things must be true, and whenever someone accuses you, it's your job to say why they're wrong.

I tend to consider failure to defend yourself properly a scumtell, and defending yourself to be null at worst.

(I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum; I was amazed how easy it was for a scum to get a mislynch using it. Step 1, attack someone. Step 2, when they defend themselves, call them defensive. Never failed.)

Defensivness isn't scummy, period. If you defend yourself against a mild attack with a mile long post, then that might be an overreaction, but it isn't at all scummy; there's no reason to think scum is more likely to do that then town.

Now, if you're defending yourself without scumhunting, that can be scummy, but there the tell is the lack of scumhunting, not defending yourself. If you're defending yourself in detail, it pretty much just means you're playing the game properly; nobody wants to be lynched, and if you let even minor incorrect arguments against you stand without responding to them, it's very likely to come back and bite you on the ass later in the game.

~~~

[Magister Ludi]

No, after I questioned why there were votes on me, people, you included, went up in arms over it and switched the argument to that as a reason I needed to die.

[Magister Ludi]

Mina still needs to answe the questions directed at her.

And Hind, why don't you just protect Hezwavre, and then everyone with a nuke nukes Hez tomorrow, killing them all except Hez! Presto, game is won/almost won.

~~~

I'll read back and try and again prove these reads on Mina and dana to you louts.

(Why is no one else doing the same. There's a wealth of information in DEFCON 3 and 2.)

[Magister Ludi]

HOLD ON

Fate, can you explain two things:

1.

Fate, I mentioned you in the middle. OR rather, the SDC hydra.

I already mentioned I don't have a nuke.

OH YOURE THE COWARDLY FALLOUTSHELTER


LAWLZ

How could you

possibly

have known this when ToastyToast had yet to claim to being Fighters?

2.

Now that I think about it

Pooky+LLD make sense as the last two.

Regfan hasn't flipped yet. Where is this coming from?

~~~

When do the nukes on Magua and Regfan hit?

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah I assume he's scum, but I'm not flaming around in a jeep eating apple pie one hundred percent sure he is and your wording implied that.

~~~

Actually, Why did you assume I was Fallout Shelter over any other of the unclaimed roles?

[Magister Ludi]

Going to be out for tomorrow probably, will be back Tuesday at latest. Probably can expand some of this then.

~~~

At this point, I'm almost 100% sure on my town reads on Hez, Internet and Gorilla. Gorilla being the lesser of the three, but by some small amount that is impratical to consider. Yeah, I can get a longer post up on this, but unless anyone disagree's I wont. Less confident than those is Hinduragi, followed by a big gulf and then the rest of the player list.

~~~

I'm still certain of Mina scum, but I've reread dana, and I'm less sure on him now than I was before because I've read some of his posts closely and they show a somewhat distracted and unattentive focusing on the thread, getting fact wrong and weird reads, that is proably more likely to come from a town that doesn't give a hoot than scum.

If It is actually not dana, I'm unsure of who it may be, but I big nuke free for all on every player but the ones I already outlined could sort that out.

[Magister Ludi]

I always knew there was something anti-american despite people's objections about Regan

Regan (European,

[Magister Ludi]

Mina is town. Ludi is town. Toasty is town. Toog is town. I'm comfortable with everoyne else burning apart from them.

If this {leave Ludi Mina and Toasty alive at endgame} can actually happen AND you guys promise to lynch toasty if the game isn't over I am totally down for it.

TWO scums have pushed for me mina and Toasty at endgame. Its possible toasty is scum here, but I doubt it, considering Gamma wanted him lynched as well. (still I'm not sold on his awesome townniess anyways). Mina Has to be scum, or else this plan makes absolutely zero sense for two intelligent scum to suggest, because otherwise their scum team flat out loses.

Unvote

Vote: Mina

~~~~
Of note, all three scum have so far voted for no total war.

[Magister Ludi]

I use the informed reads of the three known scum to help bolster my cases if needed, yes, It makes a lot of sense. What are you specifically refering to if I might ask? I don't think I referenced that particular list once to say anything?

~~~

@ML: You also pushed for me, mina, and yourself at endgame. But Mina really does need to use her nuke because this is getting ridiculous

Yeah, but I know I'm town, so It has to be one of you two. Who do you think Mina should nuke?

~~~

ML you fuckin clown....blah blah

Can you please fucking stop insulting everyone, me included, and play this game with a little respect.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, she shouldn't nuke me at all, because thats a waste of a nuke. So I'm wondering why you think its good then to nuke you at all? What information would you dying produce to yourself?

I don't think at this point we should allow her to nuke whoever she wants, if she's scum as I think she if, it just gives her free reign to nuke a town player. Her nuke should effictively double as a second lynch.

[Magister Ludi]

LL, huh? How is it scumtastic, when If I consider her scum I'm not prepared to just give her free reign to nuke whoever she pleases. You disagree that a nuke should function as a double lynch at this point?

~~~

Fate, I'm asking you to show respect, and I fail to see why you shouldn't actively strive towards doing that.

Yeah, anyone can spam with caps like an idiot, I don't think you positions are any more valid because of it.

~~~

[Magister Ludi]

Lady, day-vig shots, as this is, are notoriously bad, making it work as a double lynch is much better, and the fact she could be scum should not make you want to allow her to nuke whoever.

Even if you think she is town, We have two scum and the rest town right now, all those town brains working together (which would include her) is going to be a whole hell of a lot more effective that just one persons reads.

[Magister Ludi]

Well obviously she isn't going to nuke herself. There is another scum out there who we are going to try and figure out, and I'm actually surprised you and Lady have jumped all over this. Its the same as two lynches in a row, which is typically very town sided. As for determining her alignment, if she nukes town people will still waffle over whether or not she was misguided or scum.

The reason nuking me is a waste is that i'm fallout shelter, I can't be nuked.

[Magister Ludi]

I have asked her.

Town has played well enough to get an advantage, simply throwing it out the window on a whim is nonsence, when we could be capitalizing on every advantage we have.

Toog, its very easy to see this potentially falling away if we make repeated desicions that could have been more protown but we choose not to do.

~~~
Nuking is a dayvig. We have minimal scum influence in this game, now is the optimal time to try and get a consensus on who to nuke. Just because it is an ability means nothing. Just because you feel in some way threatened or agrivated that someone is trying to use this ability for maximum efficeny doesn't make it not the best possible play.

[Magister Ludi]

Of course I don't want to by killed in any way shape or form, I fail to see how that is a strike against me.

Anyways, there are two scum remaining out there. Even if you're 100% dead certain i'm scum (for still no presented reasons), even if I'm 100% certain mina is scum, there must be another scum out there. This is the optimal way to choose way to figure it out, and decide who to kill.

Its not very hard, people just post somethink like nukevote: XXXX

[Magister Ludi]

You aren't making sense, because no matter anyones alignment in any game, their motivation is to live as well. No matter what your win condition is, when you die your team/self move further away from it. Is this even up for debate?

Lynching is a pro-town advantage, normally its the only tool towns have to rid themselevs of scum. Yes i'm proposing we vote on who the nuke is sent at because that is a pro-town. Its not motivated by anything to do with me living, I can't even be harmed by her nuke.

Both nuke and lynch operate according to same principles. If mina is scum, then her nuke is 100% scum manipulated.

[Magister Ludi]

Huh? I never told her to suicide, and being in a position with votes on you no way weakens your argument or makes it invalid in any way shape or form.

~~~

Talking to you is exceedingly hard because you've started with the position I must be scum and have worked backwards from there to invalidate all my opinions in your eyes. I still have not seen anything from you saying why it makes sense at all why I am scum, considering my play, the other dead scum, and my reads.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually, I thought you were voting me because you considered Fallout Shelter a scum claim and I must die immedieatly, I expect you would remember that.

~~~

The point about controlling the nuke is it prevents the Vi Regfan nukes on town. If we all decide on someone and she nukes someone else, she has basically claimed scum. By allowing her to nuke whoever, we give her the chance to nuke whichever town she feels could be the most damaging towards her.

Now granted, if she randomly nukes scum then we're In such a good position I don't even care, but I don't see that happening.

[Magister Ludi]

No, I argue with players to try and figure out their alignments, and to disprove silly logical arguments. I'm not arguing just because I can, its why i'm not bothering really to talk to Internet or Pooky or Gorilla or many other people right now, I'm pretty solid their town and I have no problem with their logic.

[Magister Ludi]

LLD tried to lynch me at the end of the day here with a crap logic vote. Yeah, thats not what you do if i'm the only scum buddy you have left and your own death my be imminent. I make no sense as a buddy.

[Magister Ludi]

No, fate. I'm not scum, no interaction makes me scum, and LLD voting me at days end should effectively clear me finally. (I'd actually like to go for a day three five scum vanity win as well, but thats beside the point)

unvote

[Magister Ludi]

Huh? That post is just insanity defined.

Vote: Toastytoast

[Magister Ludi]

I mean, toasty, lets go over the post you recently made.

dana's on my nuke list, so I'm ok with that
Ludi is also on my nuke list, but which one would I rather lynch today?
dana is more likely to make it to endgame, as Ludi will end up nuked 2morrow anyways

SO, 2morrow:
The people who are nuked should be: HezLucky (by LLD suicide), TT (I'm being honest here. there is no way I would win in a 3 person Lylo situation, and it would lose town the game), Ludi, inHim, Fate

That would leave us with Hinduragi, IS, Pooky, Toog, Gorilla, and Mina
-the night kill, which will probably be one of Hindu or Toog.
If the game is still going on at this point:
Only one of IS/Pooky should be around by the end of the day (them as scumbuddies is possible);
Mina should be lynched

~~~

That would leave 4 ppl, plus a NK, and 3 person lylo would start.

We won't have to get to that point if my nuke choices are correct, which I think are reasonable choices on all accounts.

1. You again call for me being nuked, despite the fact you've many times acknolwedged and recognized I can not be nuked.
2. You say dana is the best lynch out of nowhere and agree with this, but then turn around and vote me a few posts later.
3. You fail to realize that LLD is scum and going to die within days, she isn't nuking anyone tomorrow.
4. You call for yourself to be nuked.
5. Call is/pooky scumbuddies depsite there being only one scum.
6. Mina has now nuked scum, so I'm not sure how much I want that lynch any more.
7. Some long convoluted endgame scenario which makes no sense.

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty, I posted seven reasons why you post was terrible. Also, what are the 'seven scum' people like you are referring to, there are only six in this game.

[Magister Ludi]

inhim, how can you pretend to take potshots when your vote is currently languishing on danakillsu?

Fate and pooky, stop using innane logic, you've both called me town multiple times by now, get on this toasty wagon and I'm pretty sure we win the game.

LL is attempting to bus at this point so It 'can't possibly look like toasty is my partner', in desperation, any tactic with even a small percent chance of working is going to be used.

~~~

Also, toasty, who did you target on night one with your ability?

[Magister Ludi]

How in gods name can everybody repeatably call me town and then decide I would be a 'good lynch'. It makes absolutely no sense at all. The job here is to lynch scum, which is highly likely to be toasty toast given the repeated logical inconsistences he has made today.

[Magister Ludi]

inhim, can I summarise your case with the words 'Fallout Shelter' then? What makes this any more nessesary of a lynch than people whoo have actually been acting scummy?

Fate go self vote then?

[Magister Ludi]

Are you all really this insane?

[Magister Ludi]

Toasty, what I think happened with your fighter is that you checked Katsuki on night one, found that he had a duplicate role as Gamma, and nightkilled him on night two. It explains the katsuki kill, considering no one was really suspecting him at all at that time.

[Magister Ludi]

How is it at all a stall attempt?

If people agree with me, they lynch you, I'm not stalling in anyway shape or form. Im or anybodym could have been quicklynched 60 pages ago at the beginning of Day three if enough people agree to it. I've already claimed my role, and I've already given out my suspicions. The reason this isn't happening is because enough people still think i'm town (including half my wagon, lol), and not scum.

Just because a theory that won't be proven one way or the other doesn't make you look good doesn't mean it can't be right. If another player was your role, you probably would agree it is a plausible reason that katsuki was killed. It's why I asked you what you did with your role. And its not even my main point or point 2-10, its an interesting thought that confirms you as scum to me.

[Magister Ludi]

Is self-preservation indicative of alignment?

[Magister Ludi]

Obviously there are enough if i'm not lynched yet.

Eh, I'm pretty sure town has this, but its not because of the great collective scum hunting we've had here. (For one, We've had people straight up claim scum with no lynch, and our lynches have all been on town) And we're about to lynch a bulletproof because he 'could be scum' and can't be day killed, which is actually what makes bulletproof such a powerful protown role.

[Magister Ludi]

I can't even talk to some people in this game because they eschew logic for innane babble, like fate and inhim and others.

[Magister Ludi]

(shrug)

[Magister Ludi]

Unvote Vote: Ludi

Where are my other American buddies in the dead thread.

[Magister Ludi]

You're a tool. hahaha. Have fun tomorrow.

[Magister Ludi]

I would point out that you voted for me, but obviously sometimes logic and reasons are the first ones to go when insane fervor kicks in.

[Magister Ludi]

Only if people, like yourself, believe you should lynch town reads for no apparent reason.

[Magister Ludi]

Lynch fate day three then, why not?

Anyways, nuke away tomorrow. Town definently include Hez Gorilla IS. So win.

[Magister Ludi]

The last day, man.

Gee Gee's

[Magister Ludi]

God and Zombies mafia,

coming to a large theme near you!