DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

[danakillsu]

I don't support Total War

It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

[danakillsu]

I don't support Total War

It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

Explain.

Maybe the recently ending Superhero Mafia will explain what I'm talking about. Look how horribly a few town kills that were in the hands of one player screwed the town over. Emphasizing our "vig" shots and taking away our ability to talk things over is most likely going to confuse people and help the scum.

[danakillsu]

I don't support Total War

It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

Explain.

Maybe the recently ending Superhero Mafia will explain what I'm talking about. Look how horribly a few town kills that were in the hands of one player screwed the town over. Emphasizing our "vig" shots and taking away our ability to talk things over is most likely going to confuse people and help the scum.

These shots are not only public, but each player only has one shot each day. PLUS they can be canceled.

Jeez dana it's as if you're trying to pretend you've never played Defcon mafia or something...

Okay, so the town can discuss with the launching player, and even threaten them. That doesn't change what I'm saying. The one player still has the power to take out a townie single-handedly, and possibly get themselves lynched in the process, which would kill two townies. But it's not happening, so I guess this discussion isn't so useful any more.
I do not see how this could possibly be construed as pretending I've never played DEFCON before. You're the one that's telling me rules I already know as if I'm a noob.

[danakillsu]

I'd like to take the opportunity to say right now that a hez lynch cannot possibly be something I will regret at this point. If you're town, hez, please don't take the Submarine or something, cause you're so anti-town that you're going to be lynched eventually.

[danakillsu]

hey dana is HEZZZZZZZZZZ just a bad townie?

I can't be 100% sure already of what hez's alignment is, but I'm sure that with that playstyle, hez is not going to be catching scum during the day, but rather throwing everyone else off. I'm not even saying I'm going to lynch hez right away, although I might. I'm just saying that hez is not getting to any lylo, 3-way or otherwise, and I wouldn't mind being involved in that.

[danakillsu]

hey dana is HEZZZZZZZZZZ just a bad townie?

<long waffly response saying nothing except that he's willing to policy kill HezLucky>

DANAKILLSU CONFIRMED FOR

BRAWL

DEATH

Are you claiming I did not answer the question or that my answer was scummy? Whichever it is, please attempt to explain rather than try to CAPS LAWKE your way to a mis-lynch/nuke.

[danakillsu]

dana 309 - You mean you didn't read my post?

I have no clue what post you're referring to or what makes you think I didn't read it. I would rather you just respond to me than try to be witty.

I'd like to take the opportunity to say right now that a hez lynch cannot possibly be something I will regret at this point. If you're town, hez, please don't take the Submarine or something, cause you're so anti-town that you're going to be lynched eventually.

DON'T take the submarine? How is this a good idea?

I believe I made that quite clear. It's better for a townie who can actually use it at any time to have it.
[quote-"HezLucky"]nor does this apply if I flip scum[/quote]
Uhh...why include this if you're town?

[danakillsu]

Okay, fun. Vi and Hez apparently have no intention of responding to me.

[danakillsu]

@ Vi
I obviously read what was in the angle brackets. Now could you answer my question about what makes me scum about my response? Because you say you want me dead for it. I do not see how the post "waffles" nor how "saying nothing but I'm willing to policy lynch hez" makes me scummy. I'm really confused as to why you are trying to make this difficult for me. Do you just really want me to be scum?

[danakillsu]

Magua are we scum?

You're not in my top three choices to lynch, but SDC-scum is certainly a possibility I haven't discounted. You play hyper-aggressive regardless of alignment.

OMG HE DIDN'T MAKE A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT ABOUT ALIGNMENT, HE JUST SAID HE MIGHT BE SCUM LET'S LYNCH HIM DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT AND BTW YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS.

If anyone wonders why I tend to not produce on a large scale, you might want to consider the possibility that it's because everyone likes to ignore what I actually say and just call me scummy instead. My conversation with Vi is case in point.

[danakillsu]

Well, considering we've got both Pooky and IS doing their hippity-hop, gung-ho, BS, and we've got another player who's blatantly anti-town, I tend to think town is screwed if none of them is maf. I'm definitely ready to start voting...

[danakillsu]

vote: HezLucky

Glad to see we've got 4 blatantly pro-town players. It gives me a little faith in the American people.

[danakillsu]

vote: HezLucky

Glad to see we've got 4 blatantly pro-town players. It gives me a little faith in the American people.

And who are these four?

LL, Gamma, SpyreX, and AV. The ones voting Hez, in other words. You should try it. It's lots of fun and healthy for the American people. You can get it at a mafia game near you.

[danakillsu]

Time to really get into this game.

After looking at Hez again: 1.) LOL 2.) I can't see this guy being mafia. Too chaotic and contradictory. Good mislynch target or avoid-bandwagon target for scum, though.
(snip)
Dana's still scum and needs a nice bandwagon. There's nothing townish about any of his posts and, though people agree with Dana-scum, no votes. America, I'm disappoint.

This is you really getting into this game? Hmm...which obvious case of waffling/contradiction should I deal with first?
1) How can somebody be both a good mislynch target and a good avoid-bandwagon target? And even if it's possible, why bring it up? All your saying is that scum might be or might not be on the Hez wagon, which everyone hopefully already knew.
2) You just said that the reason you think Hez CAN'T be mafia is that he's way too chaotic, contradictory, and even laughable. Then you turn around and say the reason you DO believe I'm mafia is that there's nothing townish about any of my posts, which is obviously true of Hez based on your description. So why the double standard?

Yeah, I'm certainly willing to believe that Hinduragi is scum at this point. He appears to be logical in a way that Hez doesn't even try for, but he still isn't actually scumhunting in any logical way. I still prefer a Hez lynch, though, because he's 100% anti-town, whereas Hinduragi is 60-70% scum.

[danakillsu]

Maybe it was just me

Now you understand.

[danakillsu]

Love how all that is based on nothing but logic and doesn't try to get people to do what you want by simply telling them to do it. [/sarcasm]

I'm sure not being a part of making this me vs. AV, especially since I don't have a scumread on AV.

[danakillsu]

^ in response to RC

[danakillsu]

Are you guys so sure that town RC would make a ton more sense than this? He looks a bit unstable logically, but not particularly scummy to me.

[danakillsu]

Everyone needs to realize that RC is going to quotewall and post content or "content" regardless of side he is on.
Base his alignment on what he says, not how he says it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is this SOCIOPATH??? AGREEING WITH ME???
All is not right with the world. There will be consequences...

[danakillsu]

Scum: RedCoyote, SocioPath, danakillsu

Odd. So you think that RC and I have a scum QT together, and planned that he would bus me to no end, but I would refuse to bus him in return? That doesn't sound like any scum plan I've ever heard.

[danakillsu]

(Equinox)

Odd. So you think that RC and I have a scum QT together, and planned that he would bus me to no end, but I would refuse to bus him in return? That doesn't sound like any scum plan I've ever heard.

It's not impossible. Besides, not all things that scum do are planned.

I think you can be pretty darn sure that RC and I would have planned something that major if we were going to do it as scum together. But it not being impossible is not really good enough, because just about everything's POSSIBLE. This obviously indicates you realize it's unlikely, which means your scumlist doesn't make sense. I've got my eye on you.

[danakillsu]

(Equinox)

I think you can be pretty darn sure that RC and I would have planned something that major if we were going to do it as scum together. But it not being impossible is not really good enough, because just about everything's POSSIBLE. This obviously indicates you realize it's unlikely, which means your scumlist doesn't make sense. I've got my eye on you.

Correct. Anything is possible. I also found your "I wouldn't do this with RedCoyote!" to be wholly unconvincing. You don't even bother addressing the rest of my reads; you opted to merely discredit the entire thing by picking at a piece of it.

If you have your eye on me, great. You can see the nuke coming straight for you as soon as it's launched and then feel how utterly useless your defenses are when it hits.

Let's play a game. I know your top 4 town reads, I know your top scum read, I know the names of two people you've done the Defense Dance around, and I know you've got an eye for me because I have a nice singing voice and a beautifully decorated nuke. Who else is scum?

My top scumreads are LowKey and HezLucky in that order. Have you not been paying attention to my votes?
Where do you see me trying to discredit ALL your reads? Overly defensive much?

[danakillsu]

Yeah, that post made no sense, and in fact referenced another game. I gotta figure out what I should have said based on THIS game.

[danakillsu]

lol, okay, my real scumreads are HezLucky and Hinduragi. My bad. I still think you could have seen that from looking at my posts.

[danakillsu]

but the guy makes it impossible to find where he stands anyway.

Oh, do I now? What is it you don't understand about where I stand?

[danakillsu]

vote: HezLucky

If we don't lynch him, you know somebody's gonna be nuking him tomorrow, so...let's not make town waste a nuke. Let's get a scum ability out of the picture ASAP.

[danakillsu]

@ HezLucky
Hello, OMGUS. Also, what was I supposed to say? "Let's not make SCUM waste a nuke."? You're literally pointing out that I didn't scumslip (which I can't do, because I'm not scum) and saying that it makes me scum. Please just die.

[danakillsu]

Don't bother trying to tell me I'm wasting my vote, because I'm not switching to AurorusVox, and there's only one other 2-vote wagon. I'm hoping that people actually listen to me today.

[danakillsu]

Bolded parts are, of course, mine.

Okay time for my catchup.

Townread on Hinduragi #50.

Magister Ludi #55 is actually a really good post. Not sure how I missed this the first time around. But he's right.

Magua #70 is consistent with what his position on me later on -- he thinks "people are going to be much better with using their nukes
once they have their reads established". I'm thinking that if he had attacked me it would have been very hypocritical. He didn't.
Consistency is town.

Scummy: Calls Magua NOT attacking him town in a roundabout way

Gamma's #99 and subsequent attacking of me is just idiotic.

Scummy: Calls Gamma's attack of him idiotic with no reasons why.

Posts like Magua #101 are being really helpfulw ith town. However, I recall a recent game I read that I was not in where Magua was
really helpful as scum and used that to become the sole survivor (was this RC's game?). So I'm definitely not giving him anything
for that.

AurorusVox #104 - it might be best to let scum have sub, eh? Good for you, AV. To the scumpile you remain.

Null (maybe scummy): Implies AV would be stupid enough as scum to blatantly suggest town not go for the submarine without good reasons.

Seriuosly though Magua #107 ... his posts are SO GOOD and he's not leaving ANYTHING OUT. he's making it very difficult for scum. I
just can't possibly see Magua as anything but TOWN.

Scummy: Continues buddying the guy who doesn't attack him.

I've become so calm lately and then I read Spyrex #174 and I want to completely F#@$#@% NUKE HIM AGAIN. Okay, dude. I take policy
lynches REALLY PERSONALLY so lay off please.

Spyrex #183 also makes me very angry.

Null: Gets angry at a town player.

townread on Regfan #220. A lot of his post is speculation on what the mafia would do. I see two possibilities -- he's thinking this
through as a townie trying to use the mindset of mafia OR he's mafia and has already thought this through. Given the degree of
analysis (ie. not much, but enough ... suggesting he's come up with a few nuggets but isn't spouting the full-blown analysis of his
scumbuddies) I'm inclined to go with the former.

Null: Does some weird WIFOM to come up with a townread on Regfan, completely ignoring the equal possibility that Regfan-scum wouldn't WANT to tell us everything his scumbuddies thought up.

LLD #233 - but this does not make inhim scum. Sure as hell sounds like something I would do =D

Scummy: Gives no reason why LLD's points should not be used as scumtells other than self-meta, which of course is a handy way to say at the same time that we shouldn't consider HIM scummy for the same things.

AurorusVox #236 - fake analysis. ranking several power roles isn't going to make you likely to get anything except probably the first.

Scummy: Pretends to be able to tell just from looking at a post whether it's faked. Doesn't share how he knows it's fake, of course, unless you count what is meant to be a contradiction of AV's post. Wrong =/= insincere, though.

Shall I continue? In short, I TRIED to find something townie, and couldn't really come up with it.

[danakillsu]

Also, I just want to make sure that you look at the first 2 in conjunction. They make EACH OTHER scummy, in a way.

[danakillsu]

Dana proves

she's

town.

*facepalm*

I'm comfortable with a dana lynch.

Nice reasoning, bro.

Straw-man of the original argument.

You effectively said “Let’s not have Town waste a Nuke on scummy Hez and lynch him instead”.

You’ve been challenged to show how Town nuking scum Hez (your read) would be a waste.

Do you not agree it would confirm them as non-Euro for Nuking Euro Hez ? Of course this doesn’t factor in the Terrorist angle but for discussion purposes I’d like to see your answer.

If this is what he meant, he should have said so. IF we don't lynch Hez, nuking him wouldn't be a waste of a nuke as opposed to nuking someone else, but from the perspective of right now, when it's still possible to LYNCH Hez, it would waste a town nuke NOT to do so, because town would have to nuke him instead of someone else to get him dead. Understand now?
It would pretty much confirm them, yeah.

[danakillsu]

Regardless of what Hez asked you I specifically asked you that question in Post 868. It was near the top of my post so you had little excuse to not see it. So please don’t try to shift the focus to Hez’s post.

Your assessment only makes sense if Hez is confirmed scum. If Hez is Town then lynching him is a worse move than Nuking him later. I don’t have a strong scum read on Hez like I have on others. You’ll need to do a better job of convincing people that Hez is the best lynch. Posts with content like “I hope people listen to me today” aren't very convincing.

You're right, I didn't have any excuse not to see that, but still didn't. I'm only shifting the focus to his post because there is actually no way for me to tell if that's what he was asking me. If you want to ask me it yourself, that's fine, but don't pretend that this issue is really just between Hez and me, because he didn't ask me anything like this.
You're basically saying we should assume that Hez is Town. I understand that him being lynched/nuked relies on him being SEEN as scum. And he is SEEN as scum. Therefore he will be lynched or nuked. Let's make it lynched, please. And btw, did you read my post on the first part of his catchup? That should be more than enough to lynch him right there. But if people aren't gonna listen to what I've already said about Hez, there's no reason to say more.

[danakillsu]

Okay, I found it. MoI, this is all you should need to lynch HezLucky, plain and simple:

nor does this apply if I flip scum

Uhh...why include this if you're town?

Okay, fun. Vi and Hez apparently have no intention of responding to me.

NEXT HEZ POST:

I am not scum.

That is all.

I don't think that really matters at this point anymore though.

Look at this! This is not remotely acceptable, and it would have gotten anyone else lynched in a heartbeat. It is blatantly ignoring my question on top of completely scum-slipping.

IS THIS SHOUTING LOUD ENOUGH, EVERYONE??? HEZLUCKY IS SCUM, SCUM, SCUM!

[danakillsu]

@ Swift Justice
AV right now is one of those players I just can't be sure about. You can look at my other games if you want to find that I'm not lying when I say I'm not shy about giving townreads. But I'm going to have to say that he's not exactly a townread of mine anymore. He hasn't said anything REALLY scummy imo, and his voting pattern has honestly been quite admirable. But his attitude is not very pro-town. If he's scum, he's bussing scum, I'm almost certain. That's the reason I haven't been saying much about him. If people aren't going to lynch HezLucky, AurorusVox isn't the worst alternative they could choose.

[danakillsu]

IS THIS SHOUTING LOUD ENOUGH, EVERYONE??? HEZLUCKY IS SCUM, SCUM, SCUM!

Can you please link me to a game where you've been right about anything?

I'm completely serious.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p2942137
Right about Setael from like Day 2 through Day 5 when he is finally lynched.
Right about Benmage being town, although I admittedly wasn't sure at first.
Also, read iso post 96 and then read the OP part that has roles and affiliations.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17325
Isos 24 and 25. Right about diddin.
Iso 31. Right about both things I say in my last post of the actual game.

And those are just relatively recent games in the Large Theme area. I'm right a lot more than people want to admit. My accuracy in choosing scum is easily better than choosing randomly, although how much better it is might be a little hard to say.

[danakillsu]

Okay, well out of my two scumreads, there's one I think I can finally get lynched, I one I don't really. So...

Nuke: Hinduragi

Vote: HezLucky

[danakillsu]

I got a nuke flung at me over Hez because DANA CAN'T LYNCH ME. Want to guess why? Because I'm AMERICAN.

Yeah...cause it makes sense that SCUM (who have people trying to prevent their lynch simply because of alignment) get lynched more easily than TOWN (who have people trying to push their lynch simply because of alignment). [/sarcasm]
I really don't know why I'm doing this, but

abort launch

. I'm going to let a town loss be on someone else's head. And since no one will listen to me on this front either,

Nuke: HezLucky

. (I'm allowed to do that, right?)
I'm not recalling this nuke unless you guys agree to lynch him instead.

[danakillsu]

Okay, yeah, I had read the rules, but I hadn't registered "once per day" to mean you can only post the COMMAND to launch once per day. I thought it just meant one successful nuke per day. Oh well...

[danakillsu]

So here are current nukes:
Dana->Hinduragi (Bad, LOLDANA, Dana should be policy nuked at some point pl0x)
MoI->Socio (Good, because Socio is acting scummy as hell, but could be bad if Gamma flips scum because that would highly imply Socio town.)
Pooky->Gamma (Good, there are shenanigans with Gamma's claim and his death will make things clearer)
IS->Revenge of Wei (lol Vi-scum)
Revenge of Wei->Swiftstrike (lol Vi-scum)
LLD -> Toog (PANTS ON HEAD bad. LLD will eat a policy nuke if not recalled because this was a dumb fuckin move)

One of these is not like the other. Well....two now.

[danakillsu]

I think I've been pretty transparent about at least the first two:
SCUM:
HezLucky
Hinduragi
Gamma? (He's been buddying me pretty hard, which would seem to be a mafia tactic. Not sure about this one since it's a bit self-meta etc.)

NULL:
Everyone else except....

TOWN:
RevengeoftheWei
Swift Justice

You guys KILLED two of my townreads, so...yeah.

[danakillsu]

@all
You have no idea how hard I've tried to pay attention. But every time I get on, there's another 5 pages to read, and it's mostly spam. My reads are from 10 pages ago, at least. I was referring to AV and RC when I said you'd killed my townreads.

[danakillsu]

ugh if dana's just plain not reading the thread i could see that lessening the town tell...help me magua...help...

Lol. I DID read you saying that my messing up was a towntell, and intentionally told you the truth, realizing it would lessen that impression. Make of that what you will.

[danakillsu]

LOL, SDC. Not only did you not read when I recalled the nuke on Hinduragi, you did not read when I posted right after you trying to remind you that I HAD recalled the nuke on Hinduragi? That's a lot sadder than me missing stuff when two players are spamming.

[danakillsu]

I'm going to be V/LA from July 3rd to July 8th

.
If that means you need to replace me, well...
Sucks for me.

[danakillsu]

I'm here, trying to figure out who I want to nuke. All of a sudden, I'm not so sure it should be HezLucky.

[danakillsu]

Okay, what I have figured out is that nuking exactly 3 people today would probably be the best strategy. That way, even if all 3 nukes hit town and we lynch wrong, we'll just be at lylo tomorrow. And I'm also most likely NOT nuking Hez, although I might be willing to lynch him. My nuke is going to one of two people today, and what they say today is going to decide which one.

[danakillsu]

@ IS
What are you talking about? You gave my idea correctly, it seems, but don't understand how it works? If you mean there's a problem with scum nuking us to less than 7 during the day, it's not gonna happen, because anybody that does nuke when we have 7 left should be lynched. If you're talking about scum nuking tomorrow, then town's just gonna have to be faster. Obviously, that's worst case scenario, but being at lylo is always bad. Under my plan, we'd still at least have a chance if we nuked horribly today. Under no plan at all, we could essentially lose the game if we nuked horribly today.

[danakillsu]

Okay, well neither of them has posted since my ultimatum for some reason, but I read over one of them (gorilla) and decided he probably wasn't scum. Hinduragi's not scum, I'm not scum, and I've decided not to nuke Hez. That doesn't leave a lot of people as it is, but one stood out to me. So I'm going to....

Nuke: ToastyToast

[danakillsu]

I'm here, trying to figure out who I want to nuke. All of a sudden, I'm not so sure it should be HezLucky.

Hey, dana, just checking how closely you're paying attention.

What made you decide not to nuke HezLucky?

Also, what made you decide to nuke ToastyToast? IIRC, you didn't even have a scum read on him before today. And who was the mystery second option?

Also, wow, Fate's reads are terrible--not that it matters anymore, regardless of his alignment.

I'll address the last question first. My last post answers your question, so I think you need to check how closely YOU'RE paying attention.
HezLucky's reactions have been good recently to my admitted tunelling on him. He seems more like a townie who got frustrated at a lot of early pressure, and then calmed down when some was taken off of him and started acting like a townie should.
As for ToastyToast, LadyLambdadelta's reactions with him are very telling for one thing. She mentions him by name twice, it seems: once to say he's posting good stuff, and then once to VOTE HIM. Then his AtE today was really bad, and he suddenly seemed like a great nuke target.

[danakillsu]

Honestly, I could see any of the following being true:
Fate and Toasty are both scum
Fate and Toasty are both town (Fate's just trolling by "claiming" scum)
Fate is scum and Toasty is town.

I don't think the fourth possibility's going to happen, but since it's any of those three, I see no reason to recall my nuke. If I'm on between when Fate dies and Toasty dies and Fate flips town, I'll consider recalling my nuke.

[danakillsu]

Fate and Toasty are both scum

Haven't been reading the thread, have you?

Eh. I have been reading the thread, but when I went back to look at the dead players, I missed a dead European and thought there were two left. My bad.

[danakillsu]

Nobody nominate the entire town for this game, please. I don't want to be nominated for doing nothing right but being obvtown. Nominations of specific people that aren't me would be much more appropriate.

[danakillsu]

We need to nuke once and lynch once in the remainder of this day.

@ Hindu
What is this "die" you speak of?

In other news, I hardly see Fate's play as playing to his wincon. He WANTED to die as a town player despite the fact that his death gained us nothing. He didn't even attempt to dissuade us from nuking him.

[danakillsu]

vote: Pooky

Pressure him until he nukes someone!

[danakillsu]

Guys, that's the day of the lynch deadline. We're going to have to determine our lynch before knowing the result of that nuke.
With Hinduragi dead, there will be 7 people. 4 votes will lynch someone, and since it's an odd number of players, a lynch definitely seems in order (as opposed to a nl).
So I'll just leave my vote on Pooky, since I think he's a good lynch.

[danakillsu]

So...we're lynching IS or Hez it looks like.

unvote vote: Hez

Let's do this before time runs out.

[danakillsu]

So...we're lynching IS or Hez it looks like.

unvote vote: Hez

Let's do this before time runs out.

You just proclaimed me innocent not that long ago. You didn't say "the Hez wagon isn't taking off so I'm going elsewhere". No, you put your foot down and proclaimed me innocent.

Protip: The vote above might be what winds up getting you lynched this game. Inconsistency is a bitch.

As for IS, I am happy to die as long as I can assure his death.

LOL. I can see how the fact that it's your life on the line would make things seem like that for you, but suddenly lynching IS wouldn't exactly be consistent either. I was (and still kind of am) pretty sure that you were town, but IS's actions lately do NOT read scum to me. You being out of the way for the endgame helps regardless, I think, because if I'm in endgame, I'll do some rereading and probably have a better chance of getting it right than you. Not to say you're a bad player. It's just that your reads this game seem to be kinda lame and you seem to already be trying.

[danakillsu]

You guys need to lynch Hez NOW. It's our only viable option. I am pretty much obvtown, and as Mina said, we shouldn't kill IS. I would love to be consistent, but I don't have that luxury with the way PoE is taking me now.

[danakillsu]

Well, uh....
This sure didn't turn out the way it was expected to. Me, Hez, gorilla, and Pooky for 4-way? Please no. Maybe I should just get in a nuke now to make things simpler.

Nuke: HezLucky

That will leave a 3-way of me with gorilla and Pooky, and then I just have to reread both of them and decide which one's scummier. I don't hate that prospect, actually.

[danakillsu]

Yes, I do know what a fail safe does.

Recall nuke

. Now I get nuked, right? Have fun in 3-way, I think you have everything you need.

[danakillsu]

Actually, I might be voting in 4-way rather than letting it go to 3-way. But we do at least wait for inHim and Mina flips, right?

[danakillsu]

Abort launch

. Fine, be that way, mod.

[danakillsu]

Is there really anything to do other than hope that Pooky is maf?

[danakillsu]

What is the point of this discussion/what are our remaining options that we don't KNOW will result in losing? I was pretty sure that we were at the point of no return, and we just had to wait for flips. Is this not true?

[danakillsu]

Well...mod was awesome as usual. I, on the other hand, was so bad I'm considering retirement for a while.