Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Medicated Lain]

/confirm.

Hello and good game to us all!

Lynching Vezok for a bad track record, and one post that some of us disagree with on the first day, right off, with no information is certainly not a good way to start off. If he's telling the truth, and we're lynching him for it, then we're losing a chance at going someone who could actually be dangerous, and we're not giving him a fair chance to get any better, either. If he's lying, and really is as bad a player as some of you are saying, then I'm sure we'll have plenty of traits to see later on.

Personally, Yosarian's call for a quick end to day one, no matter how much frustration seems pretty scummy to me. Less information does not help. I'd be more likely to lean in that direction, than Vezok's.

That being said, it's a holiday week here, and I am traveling, so I can't promise I will be able to contribute a great deal for this week, but I'll try to make a post a day, so long as time prevails. On the weekend, I believe I will have some time to really look over things again, and make a post with some sincere depth.

[Medicated Lain]

1: This has been my icon since 2002! I go by Lain, and prefer to keep this icon.
2: As stated above, this is a travel week for me. I do not want to be a part of a voting that I will have lack of control over for the week unless I am certain that's where I want to vote. Yosarian's actions were certainly a bit scummy in my opinion, but not enough to warrant a vote that I cannot easily remove.

I will vote when either A. I have more time to be available, so I can control when I can take my vote on and off in times of need, B. I am certain that there is someone that really *should* be lynched, or C. When time is pressuring enough that a decision *needs* to be made.

[Medicated Lain]

(shrug) I don't really care all that much about meta in cases of extreme anti-town behavior. Lynching people who claim VT just improves the town's odds of wining.

(shrug) I don't really care all that much about meta in cases of extreme anti-town behavior. Lynching people who claim VT just improves the town's odds of wining.

But he only claims VT as town.

...

I really dislike trusting any kind of meta that's that specific; if he knows people think that, then he has every reason to claim VT as scum.

My normal response to people who have a habit of claiming VT on day 1 is "Lynch them every time they do until they stop doing it."

The argument you espoused earlier about lynching VT's increasing the towns chance of winning, to mind, sounds like bollocks in this context. What is your rationale for that position?

Yosarian, explain your "lynch all VTs" policy and how it would be pro-toiwn in this context.

Mod fixed quote tags.

(shrug) All else being equal, even if he's no more likely to be scum then anyone else, once someone claims vanilla, it's theoretically better to lynch him then to run up someone else to a claim. The goal here being to get as few claims as possible on day 1, to keep the power roles alive as long as possible. Every claim we get today increases the odds of the scum killing a power role tonight.

Of course we're not actually going to quicklynch him just for that. That was more an expression of frustration then anything else; seriously, when's the last time we quicklynched anyone on day 1 of a large game on mafiascum? Still, I do intend to vote for him once day 1 starts, since I now consider Vezo a better then random lynch. From my point of view, now Vezo is in a position where he's going to have to give me reasons to not lynch him today, rather then the other way around. If you actually have a town read on a claimed vanilla, then you don't lynch him, but if you have no read on a claimed vanilla, you generally shouldn't let him live, especially this early in a game.

Yosarian's posts happened in this order. It took multiple posts of his own, and another post of another player's kind of agreeing (Primate), before he stated it wasn't serious. That's plenty of time to go fishing around for people to follow along. For this, I find him the most suspicious player right now.

However, I have also been thinking about this post:

Surye's confirmation makes the 20th (if I'm counting that right) so I'm comfortable talking about this now.

Eh. Slightly better at least. I'm VT, of course. I think I was VT in my last 6 games? on MS.

Your meta seems to be well established with a few of these other players, which means you either could be playing consistently or choosing to abuse it. We have no way of knowing which is the case. Both are possible, and while that style of play is usually damaging to the town, it is starting discussion. I suppose there is some degree of merit in that.

Players do certainly get better, so it's possible to believe that he could be scum playing on that record. The problem is, that as an outed VT, I would think it's less likely for scum to kill him, looking for power roles instead. To me this says we cannot just trust that he is a townie, because seeing him alive through the night phases won't be a huge shock. For this, I am a bit wary of Vez as well now.

[Medicated Lain]

Wow this game is intense to keep up with!

address to questions for people that didn't understand:
I was finding Yosarian suspicious for waiting to declare he wasn't serious about the Vez vote until hours later, and after Primate had posted:

Yosarian2 wrote:(shrug) I don't really care all that much about meta in cases of extreme anti-town behavior. Lynching people who claim VT just improves the town's odds of wining.

But he only claims VT as town. How much does lynching people who are town increase the towns chance of winning?

Which felt like waiting to bait someone in before declaring it as a joke... Since then, Yosarian's actions have been seeming better, and my attention has moved elsewhere.

Next.

vote:vezokpiraka

There's plenty of information in this day, and after much thinking, this is the best bet. He claimed town, but we have no guarantee that he's telling the truth at all. Meanwhile, we're likely to think as town, that him living through the nights only makes sense, because why would scum kill a townie? It makes perfect sense for scum to claim town opening day, and we have no way to prove otherwise. On top of this, he tried to give more information about his role based on the message he received, and ABR referenced page one showing the PM that townies got, not correlating with what VEK said. This is too much to look past, and I am very satisfied with a lynch in this direction.

Other notes:
What is up with people voting for Surye? I don't follow that, could I get an explanation?
mozamis - Lots of very short posts.. not liking that, but nothing particularly scummy.
brian, zindaras, amrum, poro, senfan, ABR - seem protown enough for now, no issues.

scumdar:

FoS:AGAR

-- Very strong defense on Vek, and the reasons aren't really making sense. I also feel like his posts have been very spastic in trying to just stir up anything possible. This would be my second choice for most suspicious, but it seems smarter to lynch Vek, and see if he is scum. If vek is scum, AGAR is my #1 choice for tomorrow.
Kison - What is up with that immediate vote for Mozamis directly after hezlucky for short posting? Not really enough reason to merit trying to start a bandwagon.

[Medicated Lain]

Uuuuaaaaaa! Alright everybody, let's take a minute to chill out here. We all like a game, and that's cool, so let's take that fact and use it to get along and create a nice happy lynch mob family!

@Surye wagon: Seriously, what? I have looked through, and can't find a reason posted why he is being voted for. IS, Agar, Vez, Zin, this addresses all of you, let me know what's happening there.

AGAR: accusations all over the place.

VOTE: DeathNote

Thanks for helping us skip RVS.

You need to die now.{/quote]

Jesus christ, let's all stop being retarded for a second. Vezok claimed VT. If he was scum or anti-town of any flavor, he would have had some ridiculous unbelievably retarded claim. It's how he rolls. He is not smart enough to manipulate this. Move your votes onto someone who deserves to be wagonned into oblivion, like DN or Surye or Lain.

Tell me the scum motivation for claiming Vanilla Townie, self-aware of meta or not, and locking yourself into that kind of claim? He basically just forced his scumteam in between a rock and a hard place if he's scum because they now essentially can't risk sending him out for a night kill. A track or watch that turns him up is going to result in his auto-lynch. Now his entire scumteam is forced to play that much better in order to hope that they aren't suspected enough to get nailed by any investigative results.

Everyone except Vez.

'm not refusing to acknowledge the possibility. I'm saying it's highly unlikely, and I'm more apt to pursue other avenues today. Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1 without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action) for me to consider his lynch today, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1 without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action) for me to consider his lynch today, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

So, you came into this game knowing you wouldn't lynch Vezok? And there's no way we can convince you otherwise? You're admitting personal bias, and you're saying the only thing to convince you otherwise is with a night action. Which is funny, considering that most people seem to be saying that actually using investigations on Vezok would be a terrible idea.

Your actions are not helping the town.

You're either braindead or scum. Take your pick.

Vezok claimed VT pre-game. Once the game opened, that put him on the no D1 lynch list for me. There are more fruitful choices than someone who claimed VT pre-game like he almost always does.

And if you'd learn to read, I said that the only things that would convince me otherwise couldn't happen (a la, a night action) MEANING WE HAD NO NIGHT ZERO.

Seriously. Which is it?

Surye, Deathnote, myself (Medicated Lain), ABR, and BrianMcqueso, were all just called scum, or reasonable candidates for lynching in your eyes, yet Vez is 100% proven innocent to you. You have no logic and are voting erratically.

We should be voting for Vez, not because of policy, or because people don't like him, we should be voting for him because we have no way to verify what he has said, and made a post that doesn't match what the moderator said at all! Looking back at all this however, I really advocate that both vez and AGAR should be lynched.

[Medicated Lain]

Errr voting isn't the right word, accusing. Mod, if you could fix the quotes up in my post a bit?

[Medicated Lain]

Wow this game gets a lot of content... and this week worked opposite of my planning. As of tomorrow, I am back on a regular schedule! For now, I made some notes earlier of some pages two days ago, and suddenly there were about 5 new pages since then.. which have been briefed, but not thoroughly scanned. So if you pretend that this post was about 5 pages into the past, with some glimpses into the future, then it makes perfect sense.

FoS:AGAR -- Very strong defense on Vek, and the reasons aren't really making sense. I also feel like his posts have been very spastic in trying to just stir up anything possible. This would be my second choice for most suspicious, but it seems smarter to lynch Vek, and see if he is scum. If vek is scum, AGAR is my #1 choice for tomorrow.

How much of this relies on your belief that vezokpiraka is scum?

Wow, did you not read that post at all? This current vote is nearly entirely based on the belief that Vez is scum, and 100% on the fact that if Vez is alive, I have come to realize that it will be detrimental to the town. The #1 scummy thing, which I mentioned there, and saw VERY little mention of when it happened, is Vez's more in depth claim on role. Could I get some response from folk on this to make sure people aren't just skipping over this?

Townie Role PM wrote:You are a normal human, and you're not really sure what you're doing here. All you know is that people are dying, and you don't intend to be one of them. You win when all anti-human factions have been eliminated.

Post #2 of the game. Common knowledge for all of us to take in, about the rules, before any confirmations, and any information. However, many people just brief over this. I didn't even realize until pointed out elsewhere. We all know what the role for townie says, there's no variation.

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

Why would Vez say threats to town, and not anti human factions? Saying anti human factions would have made it easier to trust him, and maybe even perhaps bring it up as something to focus on... as in the idea anti human factionS, meaning that we know we are dealing with multiple groups to kill. Maybe you could consider that common knowledge in a game this big, but the point is, that rather than this being a post that clears him, and gives us something new to think about, it tells us that he stated something that goes against common knowledge to the game, in attempt to clear himself, and not really attempt to produce any new information. The biggest problem is,

this disagrees with what has been stated about the game, and if was stated properly would have been relevant to helping the game.

On top of this, he's claimed townie. The more I have thought about this, the more I realize, it's just going to harm us in the end. We have a few choices as town in this situation.
#1: Ask a cop to investigate/a cop investigates. This is what Surye did, and look what happened to him? Granted, it's a bad idea, but it was thrown out as a possibility, and got him under the prime spotlight. a cop investigating him in general seems like a waste. In the future, our cop could be used for verifying power roles, as well as catching scum, so why should he investigate a supposed townie? It's a waste of resources if it is wrong.
(side note on Surye) But our options for what to do with Vez are limited. I think it's absolutely stupid to attempt allocate cop power to check a possible TOWNIE role, and ask them to come out.. well that certainly is a bit scummy.. Just a side note on Surye. Honestly I think it's more stupidity though, because I don't think anyone would be willing to consider that a decent plan... and I find it far less scummy than Vez and some other players actions.
#2: Trust him. I was more willing to consider this at first, but as time has gone on, I have come to realize it is very bad for us. I specifically stated this after the cop choice, because I want everyone to consider what has to be done to truly clear him. The problem is, this is a blind trust. We have no way to know if this is true, and it leads to two scenarios:
A. He is scum, and day after day, he does not die. This looks normal to us, because why would anyone go after a townie when there are more powerful roles?
B. He is townie, and does nothing else to help, and has already given us reason not to trust him.
#3: Lynch him. I was willing to give him a chance, but he used that chance, and continued scummy actions, and no matter what, I cannot trust him for that. Making the claim of townie was scummy in itself, and now there is a second, I think very huge factor to consider. This is all the information we are gonna get from him folks, and he took his chance to clear himself, and provide something, and instead dug himself in deeper.

I am curious what you all think of this?

@amrun, thank you for the compiled list of people not contributing, because this is a serious concern that also needs to be thought about. I am very concerned about first day lurkers right now, as well as people lacking in content of posts, which is mainly mozami/cog.

I came in after Furcolow issues, but based on my briefing over, I also feel that these actions are very scummy... especially for:

The inactivity isn't the problem. It's the selective activity.

But I will read more over and make further decision later. Right now, I believe that lynching Vez is #1 best option.

Also in my back notes:

There are so many scum on that Vezo wagon that its bordering ridiculousness. If nothing materializes on Surye or someone else on that wagon soon though, ill vote Vezo myself just to keep things moving and hopefully go after the other bandwagoners tomorrow.

I really don't like think this post produces anything positive, and is quite scummy itself. Didn't notice anything else that stood out yet.
Also still

fos:agar

Because I have yet to see anything that makes me think less in that direction.

[Medicated Lain]

Hey Llama, first of all, I'm a girl-type, not boy-type, so switch your pronouns.

Second, why are you so sure we can trust vez? No matter how much you can think someone's plays are bad, Brian was right in saying we have no true reason to trust what he is saying. Then, going further into a claim, he stated something that doesn't agree with something that is one of the few FACTS we have in the game. That's as untrustworthy as anyone gets if you ask me.

[Medicated Lain]

Sticking to generally shorter posts for now unless otherwise needed.

Yes or no answer only to this question:
Do you think it's a coincidence that his only 3 posts are, respectively, 5 hours, 2 minutes and 4 minutes after being mentioned/voted by someone else?

Absolutely not.

Fos: Furcolow

The points made against him are very clear.. no need to state again, and I can understand and agree, but I also still think that Vez is both scummy looking and detrimental to the town. Still not many replies on his wording claim though? None in defense from Vez himself? Thinking about the lack of defense seems some what less scummy though, in that it's more like an 'I've given up' attitude... I still worry about his position in this game, and think he is detrimental, but maybe it's alright to worry about it a different time, since most don't seem to agree with this logic right now.

The most suspicious standing out people to me right now are Vez, AGAR, and Furcolow. I think I need to do a re-read of the whole game.. Internet Stranger, Kison and Cog also have some points stacked up against them, but not nearly as much as the top three, and I think any of them are the best shots at hitting scum. I'm especially willing to vote for Vez today, but since it's not helping the game right now, let's try a new direction.

I think more than the people that are posting though, I am very worried about all the first day lurkers, so let's try:

unvote, vote:fuzzy lightning

Seriously? No posts this whole game? Are we waiting for a replacement there or something?

[Medicated Lain]

I'm annoyed that I tried to post earlier, and was logged out during the time I posted and lost it all, but I guess maybe now this will be more concise.

Some things in this post give me a bad gut feeling about Lian. The odd wishy washy position of Vez ("He's not defending himself, but maybe that's somewhat less scummy then I thought, but I think his play is detremental, but perhaps we'll worry about it later") feels scummy. The FOS of Furcolow, with a reluctance to go into detail why, also feels like she's trying to have it both ways on that wagon. She also attacks Agar, doesn't say why she's doing that either. She's trying to say that she wants to lynch Vez, but...gets off the Vez wagon, when it's still one of the largest in the game, because it's "not helping the game"?

unvote
Vote:Medicated Lain

Is it really *that* scummy to look at a situation, and take more factors into account?
1. Saying something about your role that goes against a *fact* is scummy.
2. Not responding in defense feels like a given up state, which is something I don't associate with mafia.

Seriously, you need me to keep repeating over and over, why I find these people suspicious? Look at my past posts, it's there. This game has a ton of content, and the last thing we need is the same things being said over and over by the same people, because we've had a lot of that, myself included(excluding furcolow, whom I've still only had a chance to brief over the situation with, which is why I'm not voting that way). Which is why I'm voting for a new person. Seriously, we have a lot of information on a bunch of people, I showed you who I especially have points against, but you already know why. Right now we face a huge problem that we have a ton of information on many people, and then there are a few that we basically don't have any information at all. We need to either have them replaced, or get them talking. And voting seemed to work in Furcolow's case, so I figured I'd try somewhere else. Seriously Fuzzy, and other non-posters, where the hell are you? Mod are these non posting being replaced?

@kison: bamboomancer is another player with the same problem. I would've voted for him if he came before Fuzzy on the list of players, but for now I figured I'd go through and just choose the first one, we can go by one by one, but the point is, we have nothing to say about these people, and I never like that.

Once I get a better chance to look at things closely again, I'll work on making a real vote.

[Medicated Lain]

Alright, I'm fully caught up. I wasn't following closely enough since about page 15, sorry about that.

On Furcolow quick:
I don't like the postings that came on time after being prodded... but as he pointed out, was mentioned other times before that, where he did not respond, so that is not as suspicious. It's perfectly reasonable that he couldn't be here all the time.
Next on quotes:

I just noticed this new attack on Furcolow, and I'm trying to be impartial, but there are evidence that may support his innocence.

1) As you may notice if you search for posts made by him, he didn't post anything* between May 1 and May 6. He may have been V/LA BUT
1b) He never said he'd be V/LA at any point of this game*, supporting the active lurking theory
2) He did show up just in time to answer a vote on him, and he had only made 3 posts before that one

As I am not getting anything satisfactory out of DeathNote (or any more scummy reads) I shall unvote and vote: Furcolow . Let's see how you act with a little more pressure on you. I want answers.

* He didn't post in any of the games he is playing in, and there are several, and he never said he'd be V/LA in any of them. Interpret that as you may. And yes, I know discussion of other games is frowned upon, but I just had to mention these facts.

This newer post is TERRIBLE. It reeks of distancing. It is a completely unprovoked but extensive defense of Furcolow, accompanied by a total sheeping vote on Furcolow and an abandoning of the previous suspicion on DN and mozamis (now CES, iirc). He even said there were no other scummy candidates besides DN, so much so that he was willing to vote for Furcolow, whom he just presented an elaborate, effort-extensive defense of and professed no conviction that Furc was actually scum with the vote. What happened to his suspicion of mozamis?

It looks to me like a flustered Furc scumbuddy who can't decide whether to distance or defend and decided to both, and in this confusion, forgot whom he had previously professed suspicion of.

I don't understand this? Toon fighter's post wasn't really an extensive defense of Furcolow, that seems like an exaggeration. The other points on Toon fighter seemed more sound, but this feels like just finding one more reason to try and push everyone in a direction. I don't really like this post.

I'd rather vote: Vezokpiraka
d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

^ This.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Furcolow

Furc needs to die.

What? I don't understand what happened here at all! AGAR has this great tendency of giving some bullshit reasoning to none at all, and then stating that someone needs to die. I really don't like this trend.

AGar, please clarify the exact reason behind your vote on Furcolow. Also, do you still think Surye is scum?

Yes, Surye is stull scum.

Furc vote is because he comes in, responds poorly to pressure in a "convenient" manner (although don't believe it was necessarily intentional) then pulls the Vezok wagon equal with his own with shit shit reasoning.

This "convenient" manner was explained, and is at least partially supported by the non response in other parts of the game. He did give a reason and make a vote. I'm still not liking this AGAR trend.

fuzzylightning has informed me of a V/LA situation soon. Will hold off on his replacement while that resolves.

Oh, I didn't actually see this at the time of my vote. Will address more in a bit.

Yes, this means we think Vezok is town.
No, we don't care. He's our D1 lynch choice. I, at least, would vote for Vezok on D1 even if we had mod-confirmation that he was town.

This is scum posting like a fucktard.

Hey AGar,

I'm glad you called us scum without saying why that was scummy. Early anti-town lynches are something I (quadz) have pressed for as town in at least one completed game, as well as a couple of ongoing ones. Singer has done the same.

Hypothetical situation: You're town. Do you want town-Vezok (or town-Furc, for that matter) in lylo? Cause I sure don't wanna leave my fate in either one of their hands.

Also,
[/i]

Vezok wagon is shit, Furc is the VI scumbuddy that ABR is white-knighting right now.

By that logic, Vezok is your VI scumbuddy.

-Gummybear

You're pushing a VI policy lynch on D1 instead of scumhunting. That's called scumposting. You're admitting to try and lynch a player you find to be town. That's scumposting. If you were town, you'd be playing so shitty right now I'd rather have Vezok OR Furc in LYLO than you.

Going "I have pressed for this as town in one game" is the kind of self-metaing that makes me despise anyone using meta as a surefire indicator of alignment. You know you do it as town. You don't have the intelligence of a dead fish. You are very capable of manipulating your meta, and this isn't in a way that locks you into a bad situation (the Vezok situation does, as LF and I have pointed out). The bad play for scum is the only real reason I find it believable that Vezok is prob-town. He's not a bad scum player, I've been scum with him before.

Well, finally some relevance to why there is defense on Vez. I've been wondering this for a while now. But I still don't understand why there is a lacking of addressing the misworded claim? I haven't see you say anything on that AGAR, what do you think? Does Vez really strike you with no problems at all right now?

Get a grip. Vezok is not completely useless. At worst, he is a sack of meat. At best, he might do something useful later in the game. The above response to my question proves to me that he is not simply completely ignoring everything people ask him and tell him.

So, people, please, get your head out of your behinds and start hunting for actual scum. I'm not saying Vezok is confirmed town in my eyes, but he deserves a fair chance at playing the game. Regardless of the way you feel about vanilla claims (and I totally agree that a Vanilla claim at this point was not a good move), regardless of the way you feel about the person, look through and look at the role you think he has.

The reasoning in this post is a great part of the reason I decided to stop voting for Vez. My vote for him was not policy based, I really think it's shady that his post didn't match something that we know. Over all though, I looked over his posts and got more of an "I don't know what I'm doing, or how I can save myself" feeling from what I saw, than "I'm scum, I'll just try and give more information to get them off my backs" feel, which is what I got from the misworded post.

Some things in this post give me a bad gut feeling about Lian. The odd wishy washy position of Vez ("He's not defending himself, but maybe that's somewhat less scummy then I thought, but I think his play is detremental, but perhaps we'll worry about it later") feels scummy. The FOS of Furcolow, with a reluctance to go into detail why, also feels like she's trying to have it both ways on that wagon. She also attacks Agar, doesn't say why she's doing that either. She's trying to say that she wants to lynch Vez, but...gets off the Vez wagon, when it's still one of the largest in the game, because it's "not helping the game"?

I have said plenty of times in the past why I find AGAR suspicious, and you can see it more so here now. Look back at my posts if you don't believe me. You can look one post higher as to why I am not on the Vez wagon anymore.

Voting a kicklynch on d1?
Medicated Lain is scum

unvote: Furcolow
vote: MedicatedLain

I need to catchup better, admittedly, but from what I can tell LF and AGar are ML's scumbuddies.
AGar is on ML's list of scumreads, capitalized, in the center of 2 other names, and seemingly with very little reasoning

LF because he writes off the Vezok townclaim as confirmed and therefore is for VTs claiming D1. Only scum would want to out the PRs through deductive reasoning.

Uhm, what the hell? There's no reasoning here at all, I don't understand this post at all.

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

*I'm 90% sure on that, but we haven't had a vote count recently and if I missed a vpte, please forgive.

I agree entirely on this. What is up with this Fur? Massive scum points on Fur for this.

Is it really *that* scummy to look at a situation, and take more factors into account?
1. Saying something about your role that goes against a *fact* is scummy.
2. Not responding in defense feels like a given up state, which is something I don't associate with mafia.

The issue isn't that you're talking factors into account. It's more that it feels like you're being wishy washy on every major bandwagon, which makes me wonder if you're deliberately trying to avoid pinning yourself down to any positions you could be attacked for later.

Fair enough in reasoning. Honestly though, I don't like voting in places unless I have a clear reason. At the time I was posting that, I didn't really have the time to pay attention on a serious enough level. I didn't look over AGAR's further posts any more carefully. I FoSed Fur because things looked scummy on the surface, but I was just skimming over things, and he had plenty of votes on him without me adding on. I voted for a lurker mainly to point out that it's a big problem, and maybe in hopes that it would do the same thing with Furcolow, and he'd come out. (I didn't see the post about him being away)

Seriously, you need me to keep repeating over and over, why I find these people suspicious? Look at my past posts, it's there

But, other then the "I don't like the way he's defending Vez" reason for suspecting Agar, I don't really understand why she finds any of those 6 people suspicious.

Aside from defending AGAR, he just states a person and says they should die. If there's reasoning included, it's always crap reasoning.

Kison - What is up with that immediate vote for Mozamis directly after hezlucky for short posting? Not really enough reason to merit trying to start a bandwagon.

FoS:AGAR -- Very strong defense on Vek, and the reasons aren't really making sense. I also feel like his posts have been very spastic in trying to just stir up anything possible. This would be my second choice for most suspicious, but it seems smarter to lynch Vek, and see if he is scum. If vek is scum, AGAR is my #1 choice for tomorrow.

How much of this relies on your belief that vezokpiraka is scum?

I had stated very clearly why I was voting for Vez, I felt of all the contributions to make this wasn't a very valid one, given that I don't recall seeing him post all that much. I haven't done an ISO though, and my reasoning is nowhere near warranting a vote, just found some things suspicious. Just like that, I had already pointed out a point each for why I find the other two suspicious. You can look back and see for yourself why i voted where. I gave my cases, they were just in the past.

After all this lengthy post, this is what it comes down to:
Furcolow definitely has some strong points against him in those voting habits. I think a Fur lynch could be a scum lynch, so I would not be opposed to voting in this direction.
Vez seems less scummy than I was really convinced before, but at the same time, I still think that his existence won't really help the town.
Amrun felt a bit out of place in some attacks, but nothing else warranted major attention.
Mozamis/Cog refuses to post anything helpful to the game, but still posts. This could be another possible scum hit.
Yos had some points against him earlier in the game, but feels less scummy now.
AGAR is using faulty logic at every turn, and just going vote crazy trying to stir up or add on to whatever he can. I think this is our best shot at scum.

unvote;vote:AGAR

[Medicated Lain]

Porochaz: Ahem, pronouns.

[Medicated Lain]

How do you feel about Toon Fighter? What's your read on him, ML? I noticed you completely forgot that part of your comment on my case on TF, and if either of you should flip scum, this will become a chainsaw.

I didn't forget to comment on him, I just didn't find him that scummy honestly. I was noting your case because it felt like you were pushing a lot against TF, and that last section of your post really felt like pushing something that wasn't really even there, which seemed a bit scummy.

Since you mentioned Toon Fighter though, I did an ISO on him, which lead me to the earlier case of Deathnote too, which I also didn't understand. Generally I prefer to find my own logic rather than arguing with other people, and since nothing had quite stood out to me there at the time, I just went back. I want to do this more with a few other players.. namely Surye, Internet Stranger, and Amrun. I will be working on that other the next few days.

As stated above though, Toon Fighter's attack on Death Note didn't seem that outrageous to me.. he stated a reason and clarified why he didn't agree with how Death Note went about that post. Death Note seemed to clean up later, and both of them don't give me any particular scum/anti scum readings.

Against Surye, I get that he used some pretty bad logic, and that's certainly worth looking at, but I just feel like that was too obvious of a bad thing for someone to do if they were honestly scum. Tomorrow I will take a look at the case on him more in depth.

Currently, I still think AGAR is the #1 choice for scum. Tomorrow I will reiterate my points, and see what everyone thinks. Short version: The paranoid aggressive "everyone must die" switching around with lack of logic, is too much.

Furcolow is #2.. on my list at the moment. I don't even understand why he claimed when he did, and it just made me hit my head with frustration. The rampant changing of votes with no information as to why, with lack of posting and now a useless claim at unnecessary feeling timing.. honestly as I say this, I feel I should be switching my vote. But I would like to go more in depth on AGAR tomorrow first.

[Medicated Lain]

Alright, today I devoted my attention to Surye and Internet Stranger, to get a better picture of what is happening there.

Surye case:
-lack of content in posts in general
-of the votes made, generally very little reasoning in why those votes were made.
-tried to use a cop on day one

That's a fair amount of case if you look at that alone.. I think the scummiest factor is the lack of content with posts... very little finding his own information, I'm very wary of that.
His reasoning for Vez... well it seemed like genuine frustration in the situation we were placed in, back then I certainly thought that all the Vez wagoners were definitely scummy, but there was certainly a case.
Trying to use a cop on day one.... this is pretty bad. I think what is weird from my perspective...

Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.

Is there any question that we have a cop in a game of 25 people? Something about this strikes me as very odd.. unless i am missing a special meaning to alignment cop or something.
These are definitely some hardcore scum points going on... but at the same time, I don't feel quite as sure hit about this as Internet Stranger.

I wanted to look up Internet Stranger while I did this Surye check, because these are two names I very much associated together this game, just like Amrun goes with Toon Fighter, and Toon Fighter goes with Death Note.

Internet Stranger case:
There has also been a great lack of information... Internet Stranger has pointed to three people so far this game, as far as I saw.. Surye is by far #1 hit, i think we all know this. He also made a brief mention of Amrun, and Albert. His logic has mostly been sound, but at the same time, I noticed that Surye would ask IS for info, and he would just not give the info, and later say that Surye was just dodging the bullet and asking for more information, when all the information was there.

What I found especially interesting in this case, is that some of the same habits in Surye's style that IS pointed out as absolutely scummy, were pretty much the same points I found as a clearing point of Vez for me. This post stood out especially with that:

Lawyers and scum do that all the time. I just refuse to fall for it. I dont see Surye defending himself. I dont see his explanation for his actions. I dont see him telling us what he has done for the town in terms of looking for the scum other than jumping on those silly bandwagons. What was his case on Furc again? Everyone else is doing it? Me? I think I found me some Day 1 scum, are those silly wagons on the most notorious players on the player list (Vezo and Furc) so overwhelmingly better? That doesn't seem suspicious to anyone else? It does to me!

It's true that Surye was on both those wagons.. but this lacking of defending himself? He certainly tried to explain about the cop thing, and after that, he asked for more explanation as to why he was suspicious, but IS stopped responding to that. I don't really think this is sound logic.. and IS has been dead set on Surye since the beginning of the day, he posts that we should kill him, but gives little info on anything else going on in the game. I'm kind of concerned about this pattern.

Summary:
Both IS and Surye have scummy points against them, IS is actually seeming worse to me than Surye though, based on the ISOs. Still leaning towards AGAR/furcolow over all though. I won't be available tomorrow, but the next day, I will try to make a post on those to to make a firm decision for day one.

[Medicated Lain]

As promised, AGAR. But first, a big

Fuck you: Albert B. Rampage

for being such a retard. Seriously, you think that a few days a way from a deadline, it's OK to vote for someone to change their icon of the past nine years just because you can't read a name along with a picture? Yeah that's really gonna kill some scum, isn't it? I think the amount of votes I'm at is near a tipping point for a real bandwagon, and strongly believe this a stupid decision to make for a vote. Definitely deserves some attention.

By the way, I have a few addresses to make here..
@Llamafluff: Look back at my May 17th post:

I won't be available tomorrow, but the next day, I will try to make a post on those to to make a firm decision for day one.

No promises broken, try to keep up!
@MBL: I actually changed my vote based on your post, I won't lie. I kept meaning to specifically reply to it, but that was the reason I looked back at Vez's posts, and decided that the trend wasn't as scummy as I thought.
@someone else: Some one else asked me somewhere along the line about Vez also, something about if vez were actually scum, he probably would've paid closer attention to the opening comment... though you only mentioned it the one time, as far as I saw when you said you mentioned it the second time. Personally, I don't believe 100% that vez is town, but more than 60% at this point. From what I have heard about him though, if he is scum, I'm not sure he would pay *that* much attention to detail.

And now, the content:
Looking back at AGar's posts, i still think he's pretty weird... but not feeling as certain Everything so certainly defending Vez, and attacking anyone that attacked him. If Vez were scum, and AGar, it would be various obvious to think to go after AGar next, but then as scum, I doubt he'd be willing to take that dive for Vez. The thing that always struck me, is the incredibly aggressive behavior towards anyone and everyone attacking vez.

Examples:
first vote:

VOTE: DeathNote

Thanks for helping us skip RVS.

You need to die now.

Jesus christ, let's all stop being retarded for a second. Vezok claimed VT. If he was scum or anti-town of any flavor, he would have had some ridiculous unbelievably retarded claim. It's how he rolls. He is not smart enough to manipulate this. Move your votes onto someone who deserves to be wagonned into oblivion, like DN or Surye or Lain.

Two more people added to the list, he didn't even mention anything about Surye in this post. At this point, I wasn't voting for Vez yet, but I had made a grand total of one post in this game, my confirmation with a bit of comment about the situation. And suddenly I am worth a lynch?(#102)
One thing I noticed this time through, was that his pointing at people wasn't nearly as common as I recalled it being. Next on the vote/suspicion list was Furcolow, a few days later... (#423) Yet again, voting him for voting Vez. Does Vez honestly seem THIS cleared?

Vezok wagon is shit, Furc is the VI scumbuddy that ABR is white-knighting right now.

#494. Always so certain, never so much reason being given in these posts. Sometimes afterwards logic is given. But it always just seems like trying to start something going.

GummyBear wrote:Yes, this means we think Vezok is town.
No, we don't care. He's our D1 lynch choice. I, at least, would vote for Vezok on D1 even if we had mod-confirmation that he was town.



This is scum posting like a fucktard.

#500, 6 posts after claiming a whole bunch of other people are scum.

A few more notes: Stating that you've played a game as scum with Vez may count for some points of understanding someone, but does that seriously mean that he's going to play the same way in every game, ESPECIALLY given that you were in that game with him? Of course players are likely to change something given such a scenario.
Last post that stood out:

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

We've only had 1 crapwagon. Thus, he's still right.

So keeping your vote in one place is really something to attack?

I count 4.

Otherwise, ML continues to flop around. First it was vezok scum. Then it was AGar-scum with Vezok-scum. Now it's AGar-scum with Furc=scum.

My vote has been in a total of two places this whole day, yeah I'm really flopping around alright. I mean, did you seriously just say that, after all I've showed you? I'm not the one throwing out "this and this person need to die"

FURCOLOW: First of all, I am inclined to believe that he was away, because seriously, life exists outside of this site. So this will start from after that drama.
#1 scumpoint:

I'd rather vote: Vezokpiraka
d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

Wow. You honestly just voted Vez for the very thing you did yourself, didn't you? I didn't even understand when you claimed, why you did. I don't think this is protown behavior at all, because honestly, if you think vez is scum for this, then you seem to think you are scum too.
After this, the eventual three votes in a row, with no logic given for them, just post after post different votes... what? Apparently LlamaFluff is my scum buddy along with AGar... that's a laugh, but that can just be thrown away to vote Zindiraz with no reasoning.

Looking over everything.... I still think AGar is the #1 choice for today's lynch, of all the posts I saw, more than half of them I consider scummy in some flavor or another. Furcolow's few scum points are VERY bad, and equate up pretty fast... but there's a lot more non scummy tone in his posts than in AGar's over all. That being said, a claim is involved, and someone is always lying, Fur wouldn't be a bad choice for today, for the same reasoning on Vez earlier... we stand a chance of hitting scum, and no chance of losing a power role. But I believe the real scum hit is AGar, so my vote stays there for now.

[Medicated Lain]

I saw very clearly, the times he started posting on the thread were in response to other posts. I thought that was suspicious too, until he defended by showing a number of times that Porochaz had pointed him out where he *didn't* respond.

[Medicated Lain]

I have not had a chance to read up on Surye enough to make a firm enough judgement since my last time. So for now, it seems the choice is down to the two for the day.. I believe there is at least one better candidate, but for now, Fur seems like the best choice, because there is no fear of hitting a power role, and still a chance at hitting scum.

unvote, vote:furcolow

[Medicated Lain]

I have officially looked up Surye's account now. Primate, by Surye claimed, do you mean:

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Man is he a bad player... it's not even really close.

In which case, ABR also came out as a townie? In some sense or another, the plotting was there... supreme

fos:ABR

Based on Surye's posts, he did one stupid thing, but has been very consistent in play, and doesn't really strike me as scum. However, there are multiple people on the Surye wagon I'm not really a fan of. I'm sticking with my vote on fur for now, because we have a better chance of hitting scum there.

[Medicated Lain]

Well one thing I can say about you Fur, is at least your method of suspicion is easy to read, I think I'll follow suit backwards.

People who seem suspicious:
Albert B. Rampage --looking back over day one, ABM makes very little sense. He voted for Vez through most of day one.. (granted very clear in his point, he really seemed to be pushing to end things fast) and then when that wasn't working, just switched around briefly to a few places. He voted for me a few days before the deadline, as a fouth vote, putting me very much out there as a possible lynch target, despite the fact he said afterwards that he has no problem with me. One more thing, is that he was on neither of the two main wagons. Given that he was already on the Vez wagon earlier, was he specifically staying away to keep eyes off of him today? I think it's very possible.

vote:Albert B. Rampage

AGar --reasons posted yesterday + a part of the Surye wagon, don't really know why he chose that direction.
Internet Stranger -- In some ways, I'm more worried about IS. He was leading the way on Surye all day yesterday, despite the fact Surye explained everything to the best of his ability, and really didn't seem that scummy after his stupid idea. I think IS did a great job of leading the town to kill Surye, and that worries me.
Furcolow -- Reasons posted yesterday
ReaperCharlie --Don't like the hopping around, great lack of information on this character in general, and that worries me.
MrBuddyLee -- Something doesn't read well with MBL, but i'm not sure what yet, planning to ISO soon.
Cogito Ergo Scum -- Didn't like the posting content yesterday.
Kison -- lack of posting.
GummyBear (quadz/singer hydra)
Porochaz
Yosarian2
Primate
DeathNoteGummyBear (quadz/singer hydra)
Toon Fighter
Kublai Khan
HezLucky
SensFan
LlamaFluff
BrianMcQueso
Zindaras
:People who seem alright

[Medicated Lain]

That should be : People who seem alright at the bottom there.

[Medicated Lain]

Don't know how I didn't notice that... fixed:

People who seem suspicious:
Albert B. Rampage --looking back over day one, ABM makes very little sense. He voted for Vez through most of day one.. (granted very clear in his point, he really seemed to be pushing to end things fast) and then when that wasn't working, just switched around briefly to a few places. He voted for me a few days before the deadline, as a fouth vote, putting me very much out there as a possible lynch target, despite the fact he said afterwards that he has no problem with me. One more thing, is that he was on neither of the two main wagons. Given that he was already on the Vez wagon earlier, was he specifically staying away to keep eyes off of him today? I think it's very possible. vote:Albert B. Rampage
AGar --reasons posted yesterday + a part of the Surye wagon, don't really know why he chose that direction.
Internet Stranger -- In some ways, I'm more worried about IS. He was leading the way on Surye all day yesterday, despite the fact Surye explained everything to the best of his ability, and really didn't seem that scummy after his stupid idea. I think IS did a great job of leading the town to kill Surye, and that worries me.
Furcolow -- Reasons posted yesterday
ReaperCharlie --Don't like the hopping around, great lack of information on this character in general, and that worries me.
MrBuddyLee -- Something doesn't read well with MBL, but i'm not sure what yet, planning to ISO soon.
Cogito Ergo Scum -- Didn't like the posting content yesterday.
Kison -- lack of posting.
GummyBear (quadz/singer hydra)
Porochaz
Yosarian2
Primate
DeathNote
Toon Fighter
Kublai Khan
HezLucky
SensFan
LlamaFluff
BrianMcQueso
Zindaras
: People who seem alright

[Medicated Lain]

I don't really agree with you about Albert. The very aggressive "lynch vanilla claimers, lynch self voters, lynch people who make horrible anti-town plays, I don't even care what alignment they are they just have to die" stuff he was doing seems like something more likely to come from a pissed off townie then from a scum who was worried about long term survival.

You're twisting things around. You say I made anti town plays, but that's *your* opinion, *not* Albert's.

I like ML, I dislike the avatar.

He voted for me, putting me under the pressure of lynch, yet saying that he didn't find me scummy.

How is this not the scummiest thing ever? A few days before deadline, a serious threat, and trying to play it off on a senseless idea about avatars.

I hear you all talking about looking at the wagons for scum. I certainly know it is good to look at the wagons for hints of things. While I stated in my last post that I found AGAR suspicious for being on the Surye wagon, the main reasoning is, I don't understand why he was there, and I don't understand why he was looking in the places he was looking, before there, either. Since Vez has turned up not scum, I'm thinking a little bit less that he may be scum, but the point is, as much as we argue about chances of scum being on wagons, the less we focus on the actual information that the wagons are giving us.

Day one ended with:
13 people on Surye, who we know was innocent.
8 people on Fur, who we don't know about.
4 people in other places.

You guys are looking at 21 people in the game.... OF COURSE THERE IS SCUM. We probably have a total of more than 4 anti town players in the game, it seems pretty much a given that that is true. However, given the fact that town has a tendency to look specifically at bandwagons, doesn't it make just as much sense that scum would try to avoid being a part of that? I've given you some amazing reasoning behind Albert's plays. He was early on all about lynching Vez, and he was very seriously just trying to get it over and done with. We know now that Vez is town. No matter how much he said he hates playing with Vez as a reasoning, should we allow that to justify trying to end day one without trying to focus any information elsewhere?

Bandwagons are probably a much better tool later on, when we can actually identify some scum to place names with, look at trends between players with scum involved. In the meantime, shouldn't general voting patterns be much more important than the bandwagons themselves? I certainly think in general the Surye wagon looks like it's filled with more scum than the Furc one. But maybe that's also because more people were on it in general, so the probability that scum is there, is higher than it is on the Furc wagon in general.

[Medicated Lain]

"bla bla blah his defense of Surye"

Surye was town idiots. I defended town. You OTOH pushed a bad bandwagon.

Pushed a bad bandwagon? I voted for Fur, we still don't know anything about him. He could be scum buddies with you. It would make perfect sense to try and create a third candidate for lynching if one of your scum buddies is on the chopping block.

I didn't say anything about your defense of Surye, I said you voted for Vez, tried to end day one early, and then moved away from the bandwagon scene all together when you realized that wasn't working. Get your facts straight scumbag. Or I guess you wouldn't care about that, would you?

[Medicated Lain]

I don't really agree with you about Albert. The very aggressive "lynch vanilla claimers, lynch self voters, lynch people who make horrible anti-town plays, I don't even care what alignment they are they just have to die" stuff he was doing seems like something more likely to come from a pissed off townie then from a scum who was worried about long term survival.

You're twisting things around. You say I made anti town plays, but that's *your* opinion, *not* Albert's.

I was not talking about his vote for you. I'm talking about his vote for Vez and his vote for Furcolow, those are the two who did anti-town actions.

He voted for Furcolow, for all of *two days.* Under the reasoning that he hates self voters. Yeah, that's looking real good too. I really think Fur could be scum buddies with Albert, and Albert was just doing something to pretend he wasn't attached to Fur, before trying to throw the hatchet at me. Even if Fur's not scum, Fur and Surye both had claims out of some sort or another, and were good enough to promise no accidental power role hits, yet trying to kill me off shows that he may have been fishing for more info on people.

I like ML, I dislike the avatar.

He voted for me, putting me under the pressure of lynch, yet saying that he didn't find me scummy.
How is this not the scummiest thing ever? A few days before deadline, a serious threat, and trying to play it off on a senseless idea about avatars.

Meh. I can understand why you'd think that was scummy. I'd be inclined to put it up to Albert's twisted sense of humor and his willing to take all kinds of crazy risks when town to get reactions. He normally will jump on bandwagons just to see what happens as town. I'd suspect he'd tend to be a little more careful as scum, but I'm not sure I have a good idea of what his scum meta is.

"Sure, that's pretty scummy, but let's just let him do that, because that's his thing. I'm sure he's not actually scum even though he's acting like it."
Whose side are you on Yos, anyway?

[Medicated Lain]

My main suspects are Internet Stranger, Zindaras, Medicated Lain and Gummy.

You've given no reasons for voting or suspecting anyone, and two of your main suspects are just OMGUS for voting you. I wasn't that scummy yesterday when you actually placed a vote on me. Now look at what you're doing. You're just yelling at Zindaras for talking about the Surye wagon, and avoiding all other statements being made. This isn't making me think any less about where my vote is right now, I'll say that much.

[Medicated Lain]

What makes you so sure? Just "he's town, shut up and move on" is your best comment?

[Medicated Lain]

I can't deny it's just a bit nice not having a heap load to catch up on at least once when I don't have time to post... but wow this game has lost its momentum. So, as promised, the MBL post.. with a bit more ABR thrown in.
First, addressed to thee:

@MedicatedLain, please explain your evolution of thought on AGar.

Agar's replacement hasn't shown up yet, so not much has changed. I still don't think the vote/suspicion style was very protown yesterday, but since Vez flipped town, it removes any idea that they were scum buddies. It could still be possible that AGar was figuring chances were high that Vez was telling the truth, and looking for something to cling to later... but somehow that doesn't seem likely with the very high level of defense for just a townie. That's a trend we certainly see with Albert right now, as Zinder pointed out. Seriously folk, have you actually looked at Albert's posts? That's our #1 chance at scum right now.

Question for furc folk: So suddenly it's ok to forget all about yesterday? No one even mentions him at all anymore. He had scummy patterns, and I think there's a possibility that he could be scum with ABR. Yet no one on the furc wagon comments on this at all? Something's not right there.


AAAhhhhh back to the MBL case. Looking through the posts, I still don't like it.

Youre likely to find a bunch of scum in that list, just sayin'

I agree. Which would you say are the worst votes in that list? Let's lynch those voters.

That's the only post that stands out as just complete scum. Just agree and decide to lynch? Great policy... That's the thing though, there's a very great lacking of actual content, just constant interrogation, with very little ideas thrown in at all. There have been more ideas today, but the general trend is, keep actually posting, but don't give any ideas, just ask questions. When voting, there was a tendency not to really go into detail why votes were being placed, often times just a comment. Trying to stay out of the spotlight while keeping the post count up?

[Medicated Lain]

Ugh. I'm still happy with my vote where it is. You folk are skipping right over ABR... still seems like our best chance, and if he hits as scum, then furc seems like the choice for tomorrow.
I see some merit in Sen's argument on Hez... Hez you don't really have much of a case on Sens all game long. Why are you still pushing it? Not sure how scummy I consider it, since I haven't seen Hez jumping around or anything.. just can't make sense of it.

[Medicated Lain]

I suggest you make a case (neat and concise, please, try bullet points : D ), and push for it instead of complaining that we are letting him get away. Ask others why TF is a better lynch/wagon then ABR. Then explain how ABR is a better lynch/wagon then TF. (Both ABR and TF wagons would be better than an RC wagon because we'd be lynching/wagoning for scumminess and not just uselessness that seems like a scum strategy) The best we can do is TF and RC now. I am sure you can drudge up support if you push for it. Show us what you see.

I thought #987 made it quite clear. 1012 from Zindaras also just goes to show why. But Here is a listed version for you.
[*]Votes vez for most of day one, and pushes the lynch very early in the game.
[*]Originally votes for Vez based on fact he thinks vez could be scum, pushes that for a little while, but quickly switches to say it is really just a policy lynch. and continues to hold his vote there and push hard for that lynch. (look at Zind #1012 for more details on this)
[*]Switches to Furc when Furc votes himself... I didn't post this before, but if you look at the game, he only does this when the Vez wagon is dying down, and looking impossible. Seems like a convenient opportunity to move away.
[*]Only votes for Furc for two days, and from then on, stays away from both the Surye and Furc wagons. This leads me to think of this scenario: Furc gets lynched, and is discovered scum, but ABR had a good vote placed on him at some point. Basically, creating distance... not just from Furc though, even if this scenario isn't true, he stayed off the two main wagons for the end game, yet pushed so hard for the earlier one. Trying to avoid being pointed at later on.
[*]After Voting for Furc, he then jumps around a ton, voting for Zind, me, and gummybear... that's a lot of jumping around for someone who was stable for most of the day.
[*]The vote on me was a the fourth vote, putting me in a place of danger with Furc and Surye. This leads me further to believe that the Furc theory could hold truth, because he tried to create another candidate for the lynch... when asked what he actually thought of my play, he stated that he didn't find me scummy. Why would you vote someone that you don't find scummy, putting them in danger of lynch? The only thing that makes sense to me, is trying to remove the pressure from one of your scum buddies. We know now that Surye wasn't scum, so the only other option is Furc.


As for the TF case, I will do an ISO and write a report on that for the next post. Right now, ABR is the best choice for the town.

You say that RC's only crime is not contributing... I think that is a pretty big crime. There have been posts, devoid of all content. It skews data if you're skimming through, seeing who's posting. There is no way to call any post in this game by RP protown. I remember looking through TF yesterday, and thinking that there were certainly points made sense as town. That's a lot more than I can say of RP, and I don't even have to look back at the posts to know this.

[Medicated Lain]

Ugh, reading through the TF ISO is pretty useless and painful... one little tip for you TF: reference what you are talking about.
I can see a bit of the case against him when I look through these posts, but certainly not the main points some folk were pushing.
That went like:
TF attacks deathnote for supporting the idea of a lynch on Vez, after Yos does the same.
Everyone gets on TF about making a suspicion and a vote, very early in the game.
The first argument against deathnote... looking in context, makes a lot of sense to me. Deathnote's post about lynching Vez did seem to be just following suit of Yos's post, and looking to create a wagon early on. I mean given how early in the game it was, TF made a point attempting to move away from the Vez wagon, and I don't really see how that's scummy, really it seems quite the opposite.

Deathnote later posted more on his stance, clearing things up a bit.. but truth be told, I haven't really looked there a lot either, maybe I will look that way soon.

I don't like how TF's information is laid out though. All the posts are very difficult to read without context.. could this be on purpose for confusion. Not very strong attempts to honestly make lynches either, seems very wishy washy about what to do... except on Furc, when the bandwagon had already occurred. The way he pointed to Furc in general, isn't very pleasing... especially this post:

I just noticed this new attack on Furcolow, and I'm trying to be impartial, but there are evidence that may support his innocence.

1) As you may notice if you search for posts made by him, he didn't post anything* between May 1 and May 6. He may have been V/LA BUT
1b) He never said he'd be V/LA at any point of this game*, supporting the active lurking theory
2) He did show up just in time to answer a vote on him, and he had only made 3 posts before that one

As I am not getting anything satisfactory out of DeathNote (or any more scummy reads) I shall unvote and vote: Furcolow . Let's see how you act with a little more pressure on you. I want answers.

* He didn't post in any of the games he is playing in, and there are several, and he never said he'd be V/LA in any of them. Interpret that as you may. And yes, I know discussion of other games is frowned upon, but I just had to mention these facts.

"Furc isn't particularly scummy, but let's throw more votes on him anyway"
I don't like this reasoning.

TF isn't innocent as pure daylight, but throwing a vote onto Furc isn't nearly as bad as throwing a vote on Surye, if you ask me. More than anything, because we cannot be as sure about Furc as we can about Surye's alignment/role. However, I think the possibility holds greater ABR is scum with Furc. If TF is scum, I think it's possible that he is part of a second scum group. But I think it's more likely that TF is just not very effective town, rather than anti town. However, his logic against ABR is sound to me!

Woo! Love for the ABR kill! That's what we need more of! Seriously folk, @those of you not voting for ABR, what about my case does not show that ABR is the best choice? Have you looked on your own? That's all you need do, if you don't believe me.

[Medicated Lain]

Many many updates.... In a single day!

unvote

That's a pretty solid claim.. For now I'm certainly willing to believe that's not a serial killer role. But... ah hah! I knew you were a killer! Killing Vez for the satisfaction of Vez dying certainly isn't that protown... but it does leave a later loophole closed up. Also, I work for no one, unless the pay is good.

@ LF: I am a pro-town program, I am not a miller

Whoa, this is a new role type in the game.. If no other pro-town programs come out, then this is a good lynch choice... though maybe not for today, there are bigger fish to fry.
However, I don't think a mass claim is necessary, like Llama asked...

Messing up the RC vote thing doesn't look very good either.

Whoops, I missed that, I was posting from memory. I though he had actually voted IS. Still, the argument remains

"I guess i got that wrong, but even though it was wrong, I'm still going to vote based on it!"
Uuuuhm... What? This is similar to the furc thing... Bad play? Scummy? Being in a pattern feels more bad play than scummy... either way it is anti-town on some level.

As for you, Reaper/Battou... nothing in the slightest about you strikes me as pro town.
#1220 is the most input you've given all game long. Broken down: "Sensfan was scummy for a while..." I don't see the virtue in this argument, and you sure as hell didn't make a case of it. Toonfighter, the #1 lynch candidate for the day.. AKA bandwagon hopping.. Furcolow, Yesterday's #2 candidate... aka past bandwagon hopping, and IS.. where you talk about recent game play, but point to nothing specific. ...useless post.

1. Lynching me will tell you a whole lotta nothing. Seriously.
2. It gives you NO connections to anyone else, mostly because I haven't really spoken to or about anyone else.

Why do we need connections to anyone else if you aren't scum? "Let me live for a while, and maybe you can learn who my scum buddies are."

But speaking of hydraing instead of replacing out: This is obviously NOT something scum would do. This is pretty clearly something only a townie thing to do. WIFOM it all you want, but scum would just replace out, not hydra with a replacement. Either that or they'd try to catch up themselves (and would likely already be caught up, but would have just been lurking). This is not the case with me because I'm obviously not faking about knowing pretty much nothing about the game thus far. So I did the thing a townie would do who wanted to stay in the game and knew he'd have time soon, but didn't at the moment, and didn't want to be as much of a dead weight as he had been being: I invited somebody to hydra with me in the same slot. Scum wouldn't do this because if the slot was lynched they would still get the loss. They'd just cut and run.

Or use this all as an excuse in your post like you are doing right now. Based on my experience, scum have just as much volition to stay in game as town players, and often times even more. You're like the perfect pattern.. staying just on the brink of here, but not actually doing anything other than convincing us to do otherwise.

vote:Reaper Charlie

I don't think that there's anything that can be done to justify the type of play you've been using.. It's both anti-town and scummy.

As for the IS vote: I agree that IS's play has been a bit concerning... I especially didn't like day one, now today, in general less posting.. I haven't done a real check here again. I think one really big point to make is that, based on IS's style, we're going to be gaining a lot more information from keeping him around. I get the feeling he's one of the stronger players here. I just don't think we should blindly trust him, now anyone for that matter. But he doesn't seem like a better lynch candidate than Reaper, and even Toon fighter looks better than IS right now, if you ask me.

Reaper really seems like the best choice for today.

[Medicated Lain]

@TF: who is he? I really just meant voting for IS in general. Mentioning names, or quoting things really helps make things clearer you know.

[Medicated Lain]

Wow it took a long time to catch up on this thread. Sorry I wasn't posting for a few days, didn't really have enough time/energy to keep up... stupid cold.

@Albert: I think you must be power tripping. Both of them have a few scummy points against them, but there are still better candidates. However...

fos:Yos

Seriously folk, look at post #1381, and everything in the first 5-10 pages of the day, and tell me that's not scummy. Summary:
now : Vez and Furc hating is annoying = not scummy
Yet he was pretty interested in the Vez vote...
I don't like this.

So Llama claims not really an investigative role, but 100% says he got back a guilty on Deathnote? I don't really understand. I am willing to switch with more details. Right now, you're not making any sense to me.

I find it interesting that this comes up after Ranmaru hounded down death note just previously. I just think it's an awfully convenient time for Llama to throw the town on Death note. I don't really see what Llama's incentive is as scum though, we'll never trust llama again, and I would certainly be for lynching him tomorrow, if Deathnote ends up dead, pro-town. Too early in the game to throw everything away... Llama's certainly closer to the "folk who don't seem scummy" part of my list, so it doesn't make any sense for him to be lying. I will ponder this.

side note: seriously Yos, did you listen to me at all?

In any case, I stand by my attack on you there. Albert's actions seemed obviously to be pro-town motivated actions, there is zero reason for a scum to act like that at all. It's quite obvious he wasn't actually trying to lynch ML there. I don't care if you like Albert's play or not, I was just pointing out that it didn't make any sense as scum play. You then ignored all that reasoning completly, never really responding to it, and just called me scummy for defending him. That makes it look to me like you were just trying to mislynch Albert, and separate Albert from his defenders, and didn't actually want to get into a detailed discussion about his behavior.

It certainly makes perfect sense if one of the two main people with bandwagons against them is a scum partner. Albert had a terrible way of throwing around votes yesterday, and today hasn't really been any better. All you folk who say Albert is obvtown, I don't get. I'm willing to let this slide for now because of the claim, but I don't think it's 100% cleared Albert.

Until I hear more about the deathnote case, I still believe Reaper is the best call for today. reaper/batt: Your play has been so non existent, just pretending to be, and then suddenly you try to show up for the entire game. I'll admit your post is filled with content, but I think it was a great ploy to make everyone say "forget about all the scummy things I did before" in a sudden swoosh. It's not working on me.

Meanwhile, there's still some players that hardly post at all. I was very worried about AGAR day one, and now noone special has basically done nothing today. Kison is another name we see very rarely. I think there are a few more, but these ones have really stood out to me.

[Medicated Lain]

Ugh, it's posts like that, that make me think that TF's terrible posting is more so just bad play than scummy. TF's posting certainly isn't good, there's a chance of a scum hit, but I'm still betting higher on RC.

TF: I saw his claim as Neo, and claim for Vez kill. I also saw Zind's post about the Harry Potter mafia, and am willing to trust ABR for the time being, but I don't think it clears him 100%. No one is that cleared unless dead.

[Medicated Lain]

Sorry for the lacking of quotes here, if requested I will supply... but probably not today, I think this is all the energy I can muster up right now.
s.
@yos: You weren't really against the idea of the vez wagon at first, yet you were calling IS town-like for being against the vez and furc wagons, what's up with that? I dislike contradictions.

@ran, I disagree with Hez in quite a lot of places, but the top very few scum folk are also near the top of my list. After that, our lists of who we think is scum is pretty much opposite each other... based on his stance, I guess that means he thinks I'm scum. I'm more inclined to believe that we all pick up on different things in players. I certainly think it is interesting and worth noting that our lists are so different, but there's nothing that stands out massively as a case of scumminess with him, when I looked through. Two things that really stood out were the case against Sens, and the trusting of Yos. These two things make no sense to me at all.

Zindy is one of the few players in this game that actually seems to use a similar thought process to mine. For that, I just don't really find anything scummy.

Ces's posts honestly don't make sense to me. There are many very short, and often useless posts... although today felt like there was a lot less of that. I don't really like/understand this style of play... I remember someone said a while ago that this is similar to how he plays in other games, but somehow felt a little more scummy than usual this time around. I'm interested in hearing from who that was, and other folk about Ces, because he's hard for me to read.

[Medicated Lain]

Anyone else finding this game pretty difficult to keep up with right now?
I think the best thing I can do before this day ends is *the list*

1. Nobody Special (replacing AGar) - why do our replacements fail to exist?

mod: what's going on with this?

3. Death Ninja (ReaperCharlie/Battousai hydra) (replacing ReaperCharlie (replacing fuzzylightning)) ugh, the first 90% of this game until now is filled wih nothing but excuses. Then right before the deadline where you are going to be lynched, you bombard us with basically a repost of most of the game, and expect us to read through it, change our minds, and follow your lead? Do you have any idea how hard it is to read through everything you just spammed us with? I read it, very painfully drudgingly through, and could barely make sense of what you were saying. There's no concise points, and not all of us have the time to read through the game through your eyes just because you were weren't here for that part of it. The fact that it's so hard to read just says that we're not really getting much out of it. I certainly am not.

Medicated Lain- possible, haven't read his ISO so may start there.

You obviously hadn't read through clearly enough at that point to get your pronouns right. Seems like you went into this hunt pre-decided what you thought about my alignment in this game.

Really? After 20 pages, the only thing you can think of to do is to vote a lurker? And not just a lurker, but somebody who hasn't posted? Super scummy. Who would waste a vote here, when there are plenty of other prospects, all of differing viability? When scum don't want to vote for their buddies, and the only people on the table in terms of wagons are obvtown, who do scum go for? Lurkers. And this isn't a "Mod, can you replace him please?" This is a straight up vote. So... in case it's not clear, ML. You just failed. Big time. (-3 for Medicated Lain) (seriously, go read this post. It's terrible.)

Do you know why I did that? I posted back then, it wasn't to stir up a wagon, it was to make a point that people not posting are a big problem, I literally went to the front page and chose the first player on the list that I thought was a lurker. I would've asked the mod for a replacement, had I of known you could just do that. This is my first mafia game in several years, and I'm still getting used to how to do things again. From my experience, I think the people you need to fear the most are the ones hiding in the shadows. Right now we have all these opinions about those of us that are actually participating, but then, Kison, Primate, the Furc person who certainly seemed scummy yesterday, and now we've lost a whole day with no new information on... The lurkers are just a giant question mark to us.
5. DeathNote - Lurking player, certainly on my bad side.
6. bristep123 (replacing Furcolow) - Yesterday's voting pattern was very suspicious, today we get no new information. I don't like this. I also find it very interesting that the Furc wagon from yesterday hasn't really mustered up much to try and push at this. I've tried to bring up furc a few times today, but yesterday's Furc wagon seems to have forgotten everything that happened yesterday, I find this very suspicious of the Furc wagoners... I want to take a stronger look at this.
7. Albert B. Rampage - I'm willing to go along with the vig claim right now, but just because he has the role name Neo, doesn't mean that we should trust him blindly. If mafia worked like that, then we'd all just be claiming out our names and deciding what alignment probably fits. I certainly believe there's room for creative mechanics. If Furc is scum, then I think i could still be possible that Albert is scum, but I would rather lynch Furc first to test that, and I'll just wait til that time in the game comes before advancing any further on this.
8. Cogito Ergo Sum (replacing mozamis) - Don't like the posting style, but can't get much of a read. Still want to hear more from others.
9. Toon Fighter - There's a huge case against TF... I'm not really on board with this. The beginning fuel against him started because of his vote against deathnote.... an early in the game vote, that was moving away from the Vez direction, I actually gave him + points for trying to move the town in any direction other than where it was headed. Yos mentioned that his vote for ABR was reasonless, but he very much posted a reason for voting ABR, look at #1075. I'm not going to pretend to understand all of TF's plays, but I get the feeling that he is trying, and is just being not very helpful town.
10. HezLucky - We disagree in a lot of places, but generally town read.
12. MrBuddyLee - Felt very lurky yesterday, and earlier in the game, but have liked a lot of the recent posts.
13. Primate - As MBL pointed out, the posting pattern is very suspicious. Primate basically started participating a lot, and dropped pretty drastically, I don't like this.
14. Kison - I don't like his posts, and I don't think there are that many of. Generally scummy vibes. Will post more with reasoning another time.
15. LlamaFluff - Generally leaning towards town. If he's town, I think he's not very smart town, because his little stunt put himself in danger as well as Deathnote. If he were wrong about Deathnote, then the hunt would've been on him tomorrow, it could have cost us the game. If Deathnote were scum, perhaps he is scum partners with, and just randomly decided to turn him in for investigator points. But it seems so early and like such a pointless time in the game to do it... I can't really imagine. I can't imagine what motive scum would have for doing what he did, on day two of the game.
16. Internet Stranger - I will do another ISO on IS sometime, right now I'm neutral on him.
17. SensFan - Haven't understood the case against him, his defense has really held well with me, but I want to do another ISO.
19. BrianMcQueso - Seems good.
20. Yosarian2 - Leaning towards scum -- will post more another time.
21. Porochaz - Haven't particularly had problems with the content of his posts, but there isn't a lot.
22. Kublai Khan (replacing Bamboomancer) - Another big question mark. Great.
23. Ranmaru (replacing GummyBear) - I wasn't particularly a fan of Gummybear yesterday, Ran's play is very comprehensive, but especially towards the start, various things seemed a bit skipped over.. that's kind of faded away in my mind, but generally town read as of now. Want to do an ISO.
24. Zindaras - Seems good.

Of the main wagons right now, RC still seems like the best choice to me.

[Medicated Lain]

I certainly will call you a liar, and a hypocrite! 20 pages into day two even, what the hell were you doing? FAILING. I'm sorry that not everyone has their entire lives to devote to writing the most epic posts every time they come, but at least I'm trying, which is more than you can say for practically this entire game.
Just now, You just pointed to the exact same post that I just defended against! You look at one post, and call me scum? I'm looking at an entire game of play from you, and all I see is a whole lot of nothing, followed by a giant wall going over all the posts individually, commenting on them. I can't interpret anything from that in the amount of time we have until the deadline. I've read it, you're telling us who you think is scum, but there's nothing about anyone else, really clear about anyone else, you just spew the same names over and over, with no concise reasoning anywhere, and leave all the other players in your puddle of game replay through the eyes of a ninja. I think you're doing your damned best to try to convince the town that you've "changed your ways" while being as vague as possible about most players in general except for a select group, and that's not really changed my mind. I'm voting for you, because you're going to flip scum, and for no other reason.

[Medicated Lain]

You said I was a possibility, and used the wrong pronoun, which I have pointed out multiple times in the game was wrong... ahem Zindiras... ugh, maybe I should just give up on being a girl.
The point is, you obviously hadn't read my posts very thoroughly, and had already decided what you thought of me.

My defense is that there's a problem that I felt needed to be addressed, and that was how I thought I could address it. Why is it that the only thing that you can point to on me is post #532, yet you're so convinced I'm scum? This is just adding to why I am so convinced that you are.

The Vez vote wasn't helping the game because it was sitting there, and the game felt like it was at a stall.

[Medicated Lain]

You're not obvtown just because you over load us with tons to read right before the deadline. You had so long to post this stuff, why would you wait til this close to the deadline to post this much information? There's no way we can process it all. I don't have to look back and count how many times you promised to post something next time, you could've been posting SOMETHING of content all those times, I see no other reason for you to wait this close to deadline other than to confuse us. How do I know you're confusing us? Because I can't tell anything from that giant wall about everything else. You did a full ISO on me, and all you can come up with is pointing to the same one post and saying all I do is go after lurkers. Anyone that's read this game at all knows that's a blatant lie, and that's all I need to know to know that you are going to flip scum.

[Medicated Lain]

Well that was certainly an eventful night. Overlapping target on night one? Or could it have been a role blocker? Or I guess Amrun may have gotten a protection through? Four kills to me says we definitely have a vig at work, and unless anyone else is claiming vig, I guess that means ABR is looking clean in my book now. I am interested in hearing from the people we haven't heard much from. Bristep and dramonic in particular.

[Medicated Lain]

It's day three. Shorter than day two. 15/25 alive. One mafia dead. Rest are townie, cop, doc. Four kills in the night. I think it's safe to say that one is a vig, and identified, but aside from this, we have little information. If we have two mafias of three people, then over 1/3rd of our current town have anti-town roles. If we have a cult, then we are in very serious trouble. I am inclined to believe that we have no cult, because out of 10 deaths, none of them show up as cult, and we should have at least 3 cult members (leader plus two followers, one for each night), and at this point that seems like a seriously anti town situation. I agree with Primate, if Llama's message wasn't fake, you need to come out immediately.

The absolute best information we have to go on is Hezlucky

creampuffeater - 61/100
Toon Fighter - 58/100
Kison - 57/100
SensFan - 57/100
Surye - 57/100
Medicated Lain - 56/100
Porochaz - 55/100
Zindaras - 54/100
AlbertBRampage - 54/100
LlamaFluff - 53/100
mozamis/CES - 51/100
MBL - 51/100
Internet Stranger - 51/100
Everyone else - 50/100
BrianMcQueso - 50/100
Agar - 49/100
vezopiraka - 49/100
Amrun - 48/100
Furcolow - 48/100
Yosarian2 - 48/100
Primate - 46/100

This list was posted twice, and didn't change much either time. I am inclined to believe that scum would choose one person to cling to, and one person to steer away from, so I think we likely have one scum closer to the bottom of this list, and one closer to the top. Right now I want to stick to the top. Sensfan and toonfighter are the two people that Hez pointed to the most on day two. I'm inclined to believe one of them is probably Hez's buddy, because Hez didn't strike me as particularly scummy, which makes me think he would be interested in throwing scum under the tracks to help the group. If this is the case, then TF certainly seems more like someone to throw under the tracks than Sens, but bringing out Sens would highlight Hez's investigative abilities, could have been preparing for a cop claim or something?

I don't have a ton of time today or this weekend. But this game needs to get moving, so I wanted to give some food for thought. Day three, one mafia person dead, we can't afford to get this wrong today.

[Medicated Lain]

Zind: Death Ninja seemed like a better candidate than TF with what I had read.. as I said, I have viewed TF's posting more as just inefficient play/bad town. Death Ninja's posts were a giant overload that really annoyed me to read through, and i noticed a whole lot of crap spewed all over the place through it. TF looks kind of different now the Hez flipped scum, I'd be willing to bet that one of TF or Sensfan is his scum buddy... but I want to ISO them again before making a decision. I don't really have the time or energy to view over things like I'd like tonight though. I will post again tomorrow.

[Medicated Lain]

Alright, I went over Toon Fighter and Sens a bit more in depth. There were a few things that stood out to me, especially considering Brian's list of stuff on Hez/TF. Reconsidering some things.

Points -
Hez and Sens were very openly fighting against each other in logic. #1087 of Sens's is literally entirely calling Hez out on crap logic and lack of content, they confronted each other several times.
Hez pointed to TF many times, but TF never even tried to respond. Thinking about this, and looking through TF's posts... TF has done veeeery little to defend himself this game.
-in contrast, Sens has been very strong in defense on himself, and I think presented a really good case of defense.
-Toonfighter has in some way or another said something directly about his role three times in this game now:

Claiming that you want to survive as a personal goal is anti-town in my eyes, IF you are a town player, you should contribute to town winning, not to your survival. Also, the winning condition you say you have is worded differently than mine, care to elaborate on that? FoS: vezok. You are losing the town points I gave you earlier, and I am starting to think we should policy lynch you as an anti-town player

LF: I am a pro-town program, I am not a miller

I should prob claim now. I am the Keymaker.

TF: The latter two flow together more, but as for the first, why would you assume that someone with a different role from you, has all the details the same as you? I had assumed at that time, that you were claiming townie.

TF again: You were near death yesterday, but honestly didn't do that much to defend yourself. Why does it make sense to allow people to vote for you so much? Also, you pointed out Poro and Sens as possible

Sensfan: who in this game looks like scum to you right now?

I am heavily inclined to believe that one of Sens or TF is Hez's scum buddy. Looking at the interactions between Sens an Hez though, I don't think scum would be that willing to attack each other head on. It seems more likely that the interaction between Hez and TF is that of scum partners, and between the two of them, I am leaning more at TF.. What do others think?
Judging by our night kills, I assume we probably have about 6 anti town roles alive right now.
The best that i can do on reads are:
Hez is likely buddies with either Sens or TF.
I am also inclined to believe that probably one of Zindaras or Brian is scum, because they think the most similar to me in this game, and a group of three people all thinking about the same thoughts, kind of points me leaning towards one of them being scum.
Dramonic, Deathnote, Bristep123, Cogito Ergo Scum, Primate, Kublaikhan.
These are people whose names I have not seen a lot of through this game, and I always find such players the most suspicious. I am inclined to believe that 2-4 of our scum are hanging out in here. ARB: If you want to make yourself useful tonight, you should be killing off these folk.
Of them, I didn't like AGar(dramonic's) actions the first day, but I guess I kind of got over that, looking over another time. Deathnote and Ranmaru's exchange was certainly strange, and Deathnote is highest on my list here, mainly because of the Llama incident and that exchange with Ranmaru. I think I will be more specific on this one next post.
Kison has given me bad vibes all game, but I need to ISO again. Ranmaru is a big question mark to me.

I guess basically no one looks cleared to me at this point.. but my biggest reads at the moment are TF or Sens, Deathnote, and Kison. Next post I will look more at Kison, and if I have a chance, I'll try to look over Deathnote more closely.

[Medicated Lain]

Woo! good job town! And Albert too.. good shot fellow. I guess I was pretty wrong on TF... but good job everyone else.


Kublai Khan: Why would you throw out messages to screw with town? It makes much more sense to align with town than to screw with them if you really want to win. Based on that, your actions were anti town any way, and we have no way to prove that you're not messing with people because you actually are trying to kill them. I don't think the role clears you, and actually think that's super suspicious. But not as bad as Sens.

vote:Sensfan

If TF wasn't Hez's partner, I really am inclined to believe that Sens was.

I just got home from my first ride in an ambulance to the the emergency room, and am not feeling in the best of shape at the moment, so I can't promise anymore posts today.

[Medicated Lain]

I am heavily inclined to believe that one of Sens or TF is Hez's scum buddy. Looking at the interactions between Sens an Hez though, I don't think scum would be that willing to attack each other head on. It seems more likely that the interaction between Hez and TF is that of scum partners, and between the two of them, I am leaning more at TF.. What do others think?

This is weird. You state you think either Toon Fighter or SensFan is buddied with HezLucky, but also state that you don't think that SensFan and HezLucky would fight against each other like they did if they were scum together. What exactly about their interactions leads you to believe they are scum together, if not that?

It is also peculiar that despite your belief throughout most of the game that I am suspicious, despite SensFan being near the bottom of your radar throughout most of the game, and despite me being at an equal score as SensFan on HezLucky's list, that you ae going after SensFan over me.

I don't really think it's that weird. I am going through my list of suspects. It's true I should read Sensfan again, and all my suspects for that matter, but I am picking through my list of who I think is scum. Hez didn't really actively try to lynch you, Sens and TF were his two biggest targets. It seemed less likely reading at Sens's posts with Hez that he was scum than he was with TF. TF wasn't his partner, and I am still inclined to believe that Hez was in a position of trying to throw a partner under the wagon.

[Medicated Lain]

We still stand the chance of scum hitting each other. Question: What does lylo mean? Could I have a rephrase of what Sens is saying? Does this mean that leaving KK alive means a sure town loss? Or vise versa, and we have to hit scum today? I am leaning more towards thinking KK would be a good choice whether he is actually scum, or really is the survivor, based on this... but I need some clarification, preferably from *at least* two players.

If what Sens is saying is true, then pointing it out gives him pretty ultimate town points from me.

@Lain: Why do you find it implausible that HezLucky didn't put an ally high on his list? Your infatuation with that list is lazy scum hunting.. You have essentially no reason for suspecting SensFan other than his position on that list, and it goes completely against your prior read.

Over all, I feel pretty annoyed with my play and all this game. I thought TF's bad play was more so a sign of being a VI than actually scum.. I was really certain that RC was scum based on how he played out that day. I thought ABR was scum, when he's actually our vig. I guess my track record really sucks this game. I started out this game looking at players individually and seeing what I thought, but it obviously didn't seem to be working, so right now, I am trying to figure out just what I need to do to actually be helpful. Pinning through that list seemed like a good choice, and so did trying to point out where scum sources probably are yesterday, before we got abruptly stopped.

[Medicated Lain]

unvote, vote: kublai khan

If you're not lynching KK at this point, you're likely scum.

[Medicated Lain]

Deathnote looks pretty suitable to me.... Between Llama's heavy suspicion on him, and preferring to keep the survivor alive...

[Medicated Lain]

ne?

[Medicated Lain]

If you mean, why am I not choosing Sensfan? Because after looking back over a bit, I didn't really find him suspicious, and today's actions make me think even more that he's pro-town. After considering, it doesn't really make that much sense to be suspicious of him specifically because of where he was on a scum list. As opposed to death note, who is standing out to me right now, particularly because he would rather keep the survivor alive, despite that it has been said by multiple people now that it can easily result in a scum win. What does every one else think of death note? I haven't had a chance to look at Brian yet... big test tomorrow! After that, I'll be fairly freed up!

[Medicated Lain]

pah on you all!

Oh well, thanks for a fun first game back in a long while folk!

[Medicated Lain]

oh MoS... you dragged me back to this place, didn't you? Thank you.

Your game was super fun and interesting. Sad I died when I did, should've killed Albert on the second night that it was out, maybe could've made some difference for my team. I just figured, if he kept killing people to bring down the population, then it's not so bad. Or if the other scum team hits him, and so do we, then it would be such a waste.