Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Surye]

/confirm! Glad I was able to get in pregame.

[Surye]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

If he's a Cop, then he's not a Townie. Therefore he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Cop.
If he's a Serial Killer, then he's not Town. Therefore, he's not Town.
If he's a Vig, then he's not a Townie. Therefore, he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Vig.
By induction, my thesis holds that he's either a Townie or he's not Town.

I just meant he could be town but a PR. (A cop is a townie etc) Though I grant you, I can't see why he would lie about it.
My point really was that I just think we should be entirely neutral about his claim. I do see what you mean. I just think we should ignore it really.
ps induction is inference from experience -you meant a priori reasoning

Excpet he claimed vanilla. So your line of reasoning means nothing.
To clarify the terminology I used:
Townie - A role with no abilities and a Pro-Town win condition
Town - A role with a Pro-Town win condition

He has claimed to be a Townie. Thus, he is either a Townie, a Town PR, or not Town. If he's a Town PR, then he's not a Townie, then he's a liar. But Town doesn't lie. Thus, he's not a Town PR. Thus, he's either a Townie or not Town.

[Surye]

Ebwop, dont know what happened:

except he claimed vanilla.

[Surye]

Ebwop, dont know what happened:

except he claimed vanilla.

So...him claiming Townie precludes him from being one of {Townie, Scum}?
I'm not following.

Thats because I miss read what you wrote. You were making the same point I was, but I thought you were agreeing with him.

[Surye]

I have no idea what went on in the last few posts.

I misread sensfan as being incorrect in the same way mozamis did, I posted, but my phone messed up my quoting the first time.

[Surye]

Okay, reading the pregame and day so far, I like the Vez bandwagon. Since a lynch would, especially D1 with as little information based on PR due to no n0, be either best case senario, or second to best (scum, or no PR). I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.

I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.

So,

Vote: Vez

[Surye]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

Really? Damn, I wish I had claimed VT in pregame so I could be "near for sure" innocent in your eyes. This is Mafia, pal. People can lie (seriously).

Experience shows it comes from town from scum at a rate slightly more then game average, so its a town tell. Players like vezok are also near unreadable due to the erratic nature of their play, so I prefer to just lock them in as a slight read early and just make sure they sheep a town read. If I get a town read on vezok and vezok sheeps me or someone else I think is town the entire game, I am happy with it.

Even though this isnt the exact situation my "dont lynch the VT" tell applies, I think that there is enough going here to call vezok town.

What did the VT claim do for your read on him?

Read on what? He doesn't need to post because he is claimed VT. I highly doubt we get a good chance to get a read day one on him, but with 13 to Lynch, we still have plenty of time no matter what.

if he is VT or scum, he will survive the night, and again, no real information on the wagon or analysis. Ugh, i hate d1 VT claims.

[Surye]

The key here is there is no night 0, without that dimension, day 1 sucks information wise, especially with a VT claim. I know, I've said this, but I wanted to emphasis the n0 point.

Additionally, we can attempt another wagon, and use that for analysis, however tomorrow we'll have the vez problem, or the next night, or the next, each time, the PR roles being more at risk, and providing less over all information to the town. If you don't believe me, look at Poro's analysis and extrapolate the numbers. He has the least negative effect to the town as a day 1 lynch in this current setup and situation. I strongly believe in that.

[Surye]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Man is he a bad player... it's not even really close.

[Surye]

Defending vezok or chainsawing his attackers is inherently a scummy move. But, if vezok was on my team, I wouldn't defend him...

Not sure how that implies multiple scum teams... if they were on a different scum team, risking their team is just as illogical as risking voz's. I'd say non-human faction

s

and the size are more likely reasons.

[Surye]

"Let's either lynch Vezok, or the scummiest guy voting for Vezok" makes sense to me, in a way. If Vezok is town, then there's probably some scum voting for him.

I'd be surprised if there aren't Scum both on and off of the wagon. Is there any particular reason why you would think it's best to look on the wagon?

As I stated, this wagon is no information in my opinion. The reason I am on it is that my analysis is that it will result in better town odds. However, another wagon today may be more fruitful, and there's no reason why we can't come back to Vezo later today.

[Surye]

"Let's move to another wagon for the sake of information" is pretty much the easiest way to guarantee that the wagon will lead to nothing.

Yea, but if one believes strongly enough it ultimately won't yield anything, that's fine.

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

[Surye]

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.

• I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
  is
  an important number.
  
• I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
  
• I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
  
• The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
  
• Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

Thoughts?

[Surye]

I love that Vez voted me.

[Surye]

My ideas to come up with a solution to the problems I listed seem to have struck a cord with some as scummy and anti-town. I'm okay with them not being good ideas, and to be honest, with this day already a mess, they are desperate to find something to find scummy and wagon. But the speed in which some people jumped on against me is very interesting. Especially Agar and Vez.

WIFOM does not exist.

Also, this post contradicts both with your earlier post and your still-present vote on Vez. You apparently find the wagon to be useless regarding information, yet you're still on it. Leading the Cop is also a no-no.

Feeling pretty good about my Surye vote right now.

You clearly missed my point. I believe his wagon will be useless regarding information, and I believe him surviving on is dangerous to town. Did I not make that clear, or do you find them mutually exclusive?

[Surye]

You clearly missed my point. I believe his wagon will be useless regarding information, and I believe him surviving on is dangerous to town. Did I not make that clear, or do you find them mutually exclusive?

Do you think his wagon will suddenly gain information if it happens 3 days from now?

Nope, which is why it sucks we're in this position. But I do think he hurts town's chance of winning the longer he is alive, because regardless of what Zin says, claiming VT pregame IS wifom. And the misinformation and confusion will be clear to one side only, scum. That is dangerous. Add to it the PR list narrowing (and vez saying PR roles don't matter, pfft), and I still think he needs to be eliminated asap to prevent these issues. My idea was an attempt at allowing us another bandwagon and lynch today that could be more fruitful, and still take care of the vez problem, but apparently there's some game theory issues I was not taking into account in that plan, so it may be a bad plan. Which would explain why my vote hasn't moved, because my premise never moved.

[Surye]

Declaring him the only acceptable lynch for the day

suggesting we run up someone else during the day

Whaa?

[Surye]

The most obvious one is clearly Surye. His arguments are invalid

Funny, in ISO, you never mention how my arguments are invalid.

[Surye]

So Surye says that I need to have already made my case (or at least breadcrumbed it) before someone bitches at me about making a case on Surye so I state my case? I will get on the Delorean right away and redo some old posts.

You people are simply incredible.

Your first game post was a clearly non-RVS vote against me. That was two days ago. And you've made many posts since. Why is it incredible for me to expect some substance in that?

[Surye]

I am not disagreeing with IS about Surye. I mean, this is one of the worse plans I have ever read in my entire time on this site:

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

But...Surye....he's always like this. Always has an incredibly scummy plan, even when he's town. You have to catch him later in the game with his connections to scum.

Arn't you glad I came back to MS?

But honestly, if it's that bad of a plan, okay. I won't AVOID posting ideas and content for fear of being wrong and therefore SCUM. Maybe I am full of nonsense, but it was trying to get the ball rolling on the Vez rut that we were in. But because of the points listed before the plan, I don't feel the Vez situation can be ignored.

IS, believeing what you do about me, what is your position on Vez? Null tell? Slight town? Slight Scum? Convinced either way? Should be ignored today, the topic dropped till something strikes it back up? I'm curious because I get a scum lean on him, and I was trying to find what the next move is. I already have my vote on him after all.

[Surye]

Surye, tell me why your plan is bad. Give me like 5 reasons why it's bad.

Now that it's been several days, and I've been given feedback, most importantly is any power role reveal this early in a 25 man is terrible. I was oversimplifying it that he could just then be protected. Second, false claim/counter claiming could put us in a worse position than today since it would not be proceeded by any information. I don't see the inherent issue in investigating Vez, as most seem to feel VT claim is nullish, but I suppose that could be a waste.

I was and am honestly trying to contribute to the scumhunting, and I felt we needed a new direction. My direction was bad, yea, but not in anti-town intent.

[Surye]

SUFFER NOT THE LURKER TO LIVE.

Wait, you're calling me a lurker? Really?

[Surye]

As my sig says, V/LA most of the weekend, I can do posts from my phone tonight on the road, not driving, but i will be limited.

[Surye]

Back from V/LA, reviewing thread, post today.

[Surye]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

[Surye]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

We've only had 1 crapwagon. Thus, he's still right.

Why word it that way unless you're just trying to exaggerate how bad I look from his perspective? Why did he need to do that?

[Surye]

I love that typing in sentences is part of Hez's case against me. Adorable.
Kison votes me, then asks the V/LA where he is.

Hate hate hate self-votes.

Vote: Furcolow

anti-town and scummy as hell.

[Surye]

"V/LA 6th/7th/8th"

It is May 10th.

Yea, I was over ambitious about monday after vegas.

[Surye]

Could we get a prod on Bamboomancer.

Surye: Who do you even suspect. You claimed a few posts back that you've been trying to contribute to scum hunting, yet this entire game day your focus has been on the Vezo issue. With twenty pages of content, who looks bad to you?

You asked me to answer, and obviously, I like Furcolow as scum right now. I was trying to resolve my internal conflict with the issues how to deal with the vez VT claim, and figure out how to get on a scumhunting track. I obviously wasn't doing a great job of that.

[Surye]

Hey hey, let's be consistent here, Yos. Furcolow claimed VT and must die.

Between the self-vote, the VT claim, and trying to push the votes back to Ani in his dying breath for ... yea.

[Surye]

Surye:

- Bad reasoning for the "me too" voting for Vezo right out of the start. (Claimed VT, thinks Vezo is horrible)
- Tried to get a cop to out themselves or waste a vote on Vezo Day 1.
- Constant rhetorical questions in place of content.
- String of excuses
- Jumps on the still awful Furc wagon. I find it curious that so many of the same people continue to jump on infamously easier lynches.
- Otherthan jumping on easy wagons, not much content. Doesnt have a strong commitment to any of them, isnt really looking for scum with any sort of intent. Classic definition of scum coasting.

I dont even want Surye to claim, he is simply scum.

Ugh, this is getting tired.

[Surye]

Surye:

- Bad reasoning for the "me too" voting for Vezo right out of the start. (Claimed VT, thinks Vezo is horrible)
- Tried to get a cop to out themselves or waste a vote on Vezo Day 1.
- Constant rhetorical questions in place of content.
- String of excuses
- Jumps on the still awful Furc wagon. I find it curious that so many of the same people continue to jump on infamously easier lynches.
- Otherthan jumping on easy wagons, not much content. Doesnt have a strong commitment to any of them, isnt really looking for scum with any sort of intent. Classic definition of scum coasting.

I dont even want Surye to claim, he is simply scum.

Ugh, this is getting tired.

unvote
vote surye

God. I odn't want this day to end. I want you dead. You are so scum. This is the only response on the case no you???

It's not a case. It's all been discussed. He's rehashing, it's nothing interesting, he's super tunneled, he talks about contentless posts, he's been posting the same thing all day over and over.

[Surye]

Surye, I have a rope with your name on it. You disappear right after I ask you to take a stand against someone other than the two easy lynches. I see you posting in other games.

News flash, you dont get to tell me where to take a stand because you call them "easy".

[Surye]

For those who think I dismissed IS's case, here you go:

On the wagoning:

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

We've only had 1 crapwagon. Thus, he's still right.

Why word it that way unless you're just trying to exaggerate how bad I look from his perspective? Why did he need to do that?

On the plan:

Surye, tell me why your plan is bad. Give me like 5 reasons why it's bad.

Now that it's been several days, and I've been given feedback, most importantly is any power role reveal this early in a 25 man is terrible. I was oversimplifying it that he could just then be protected. Second, false claim/counter claiming could put us in a worse position than today since it would not be proceeded by any information. I don't see the inherent issue in investigating Vez, as most seem to feel VT claim is nullish, but I suppose that could be a waste.

I was and am honestly trying to contribute to the scumhunting, and I felt we needed a new direction. My direction was bad, yea, but not in anti-town intent.

Surye:

- Bad reasoning for the "me too" voting for Vezo right out of the start. (Claimed VT, thinks Vezo is horrible)
- Tried to get a cop to out themselves or waste a vote on Vezo Day 1.
- Constant rhetorical questions in place of content.
- String of excuses
- Jumps on the still awful Furc wagon. I find it curious that so many of the same people continue to jump on infamously easier lynches.
- Otherthan jumping on easy wagons, not much content. Doesnt have a strong commitment to any of them, isnt really looking for scum with any sort of intent. Classic definition of scum coasting.

I dont even want Surye to claim, he is simply scum.

Ugh, this is getting tired.

As for "strong commitment", how have I not had strong commitment to Vezo? It's easy to say I have no commitment when you falsely paint me as a wagon jumper.

As for "Constant rhetorical questions in place of content" ISO me, tell me where on earth this happens.

Can we be done with IS's tunneling on me yet?

[Surye]

People who jump the fur wagon for me because of the deadline either are idiots, scum, or have not read the rules.

[Surye]

VT, I hope my mislynch will be of use to the town.

[Surye]

Flavor?

Same as in the OP.

[Surye]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Surye

In the interest of insuring a lynch occurs, although a Furc wagon would still be tech. GummyBear going under noted.

(Oh wow... just saw teh deadline. Okay.

Unvote, Vote: Surye

)

CREAMPUFFEATER IS SCUM. EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION TO THAT.

ugly deadline.

Each Day phase will last no longer than

3 weeks

. Deadlines are subject to the Helios mechanic. At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch to occur. In case of a tie, the person who first received the required number of votes will be lynched. If this number is not met, a No Lynch will occur.

Vote Count #10

:

Furcolow (7) - (SensFan, Toon Fighter, BrianMcQueso, AGar, Surye, creampuffeater, GummyBear)
Surye (5) - (Internet Stranger, Zindaras, vezokpiraka, Kison, Cogito Ergo Sum)
ToonFighter (1) - (Amrun)
Medicated Lain (3) - (LlamaFluff, Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee)
Zindaras (1) - (Furcolow)
vezokpiraka (1) - (DeathNote)
SensFan (1) - (Primate)
AGar (1) - (Medicated Lain)
creampuffeater (1) - (HezLucky)
Amrun (1) - (Porochaz)
GummyBear (1) - (Albert B. Rampage)

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Furc was lynchable at deadline. Anyone using that as an excuse should be looked at carefully.

[Surye]

Thats exactly my point. This game will be so amazing when 25 people claim vanilla townie. So whats the use of claiming if all we are doing is running a herpaderp massclaim circlejerk?

Surye is your scum.

And if you're wrong? I'm just a bad player, right?

[Surye]

Surye is still prob-scum, but I see a juicier wagon on Furc right now, with just as good a result. Even better because we might be able to sort out some of the politicians who most definitely have a few scumbags between them.

[Surye]

And if im right? It just further establishes my legendary awesomeness, right?

Haha, sure.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Surye

In the interest of insuring a lynch occurs, although a Furc wagon would still be tech. GummyBear going under noted.

So, potential AGar connection to furc, not only did he use a bullshit excuse to jump off the wagon (that was at L-7, but L-0 at deadline, much different scenario for buddies). While still looking down on Furc.

I would happily wagon Furc over Surye for that reason, but the Furc wagon is unfortunately receiving the same resistance as the Vezok wagon did.

Yet my wagon, with less votes, had even more resistance than Furc, looks like he's justifying his jump.

Surye is still prob-scum, but I see a juicier wagon on Furc right now, with just as good a result. Even better because we might be able to sort out some of the politicians who most definitely have a few scumbags between them.

Setting it all up.

[Surye]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This reads like a diary of a madman.

[Surye]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This reads like a diary of a madman.

Taken out of context. You on the other hand are scummy just in ISO.

Haha, trust me, context does not help that ISO.

[Surye]

Surye - here's a hint: Furcs wagon stalled out at 7 votes. You're operatively at 9 right now (Furc is a moron and forgot to unvote) and more people may just swing on. You do the math.

Pointless point at this point. I was talking about before the disinformation regarding need for a lynch by deadline.