Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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First five pages of catch up. I'm finding this heavy going.
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Poison Ivy proposing policy lynch of furc is not scummy. Undiplomatic- probtown. Don't actually agree, though- Furc does try to scumhunt as town, usually. If a player is trying to scumhunt or faking the same, I can at least try to read them. If I'm going to policy lynch anyone, it probably isn't him.
Also don't buy that thinking it's USTown vs Russcum is an indication of any kind of antitown American role. After all, American scum would presumably know that American scum existed...
None of the stuff XScorpion votes over is actually scummy.
Yeah, lack of knowledge is such an informed minority tell...Your blatant lack of knowledge about this set up is scummy
EGL enters and random votes despite there being actual discussion. This shows a lack of scumhunting urgency.
Same problem with Stephoscope.
EGL then snaps to the scumhunting (again, I don't actually agree with it) which mitigates earlier concern.
OK, I guess I gotta stop commenting on anything I don't think is really major here, because otherwise I'll never catch up.
I'm not sure it's that hard for someone who has a Free World role PM to imagine that it is the Soviets who are the 'threat to peace.' This mistake is kinda unlikely from town, but I think it's more unlikely from scum as noted above.
Like Ghostwriter's better phrasing of the above point.
OK, so ThAd enters, answers Furcolow's RQS questions, and piggybacks someone else's reason to be on the biggest wagon. Oh yeah, not scum or anything. This is my early no1.
Smargaret also scummy for easy Furc vote. Bad reasons =/= scum.
Furc assuming scum can daytalk is... interesting. In Mafia in Mendo, I basically confirmed him as town because he assumed scum could daytalk (It's standard on the site he came from) even though it explicitly said in the rules that they couldn't. That he does the same again... eh, he's either scum or learnt absolutely nothing from experience. Problem is, he's Furc so the latter is perfectly possible.
Hip Hop Mafia says hi (I was town, proposed it, scum attacked it). Though I think you might be right on the numbers. I can easily see Furc thinking it could help, though.Scumtell, not a scumslip, and it's based on my experience: the RQS that I've seen before were almost universally pitched by scum.
*Sigh* LF was so obvtown. I'd probably have seen it like this, if I hadn't had the abovementioned experience with him.LlamaFluff wrote:
Actually this makes Fur amazingly likely to be town since scum would have known this, and probably pointed it out instead of saying "I just assumed scum have (full) daytalk"
Bvoight 108 - good point on gonnano. 'I've scumhunted badly in the past, so I'm not going to trust my reads' doesn't make any sense from a town POV.
I agree with Beasts' 110. Think Beasts' reasons for voting PI were much better than Artem's own.
Calling ThAd as opportunistic scum.
Pappums' rat's jump on furc is HORRIBLE.
Furc's openness about playing to survive feels like his town mindset. That said, I haven't actually ever seen his scumplay to compare.@Furcolow: have you been scum yet? Can you link me please?-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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To end P10 (I can't lie, i'm struggling to find the motivation here).
tual scumhunting from Lowell. Now, this places me in a quandary. The only game I've ever played with him where he tried, he was scum (the recently-finished Simpsons Mafia). Contrast that with how useless he was in Consulmaker as town. But I really don't want to lynch someone because they're scumhunting.
Though again, I think the actual point on Gonnano is weak... people who haven't posted at all in thread aren't particularly likely to be tactical lurkers.
This doesn't make any sense. It's precisely a wagon growing close to lynch before the wagonee has a chance to respond that should make a town player worried about it.XScorpion wrote:I totally don't understand how people are QQ'ing about the 'speed' of PI's wagon when he hasn't even responded since it started.
Then pretty much the rest of the page is the usual Furc fail. Nothing really to see here.
This is pretty scummy. Filler post. What do Furc's actions tell you about his alignment? What about the people wagoning him?DavidParker wrote:Furc seems to be living upto his anti-town reputation fairly well.
Scummy looking ThAd wagon jump.
Disagree, as noted I think being open about it is a protown sign.gonnano wrote:But I can tell you that this is definitely not pro-town behavior:
Furcolow wrote:
vote: poisonivy for the reason of survival.
156 is pretty fillerish as well. Strong ThAd scum read right now.
Steph should expand on why bv's iso is scummy.
When you're as much of a VI as Furcolow, then your primary aim as town seems mostly to be not to get lynched Day one. Pressuring certain VIs, and especially this one, can be counterproductive, since they tend to go into their shells/ focus solely on defending/ OMGUS. If you wanna policy lynch him, policy lynch him, it's perfectly justifiable, what I don't like is people trying to make out that his usual playstyle actually makes him more likely to be scum.gonnano wrote:
Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.ThAdmiral wrote:It is if you are town.
Sure, but that doesn't rule out from the perspective of someone with a free world or third world role pm that the scum are all Soviet, nor that all Soviets are scum. It's quite possible that the town is multinational but that a scumgroup might be monoethnic. Until we have a Free world aligned scum flip or a Soviet town flip, this is all just speculation.BV wrote:If someone (a townie) read the possible mafia wincon (Rule #4), then yes, they'd notice their own wincon (Rule #3) and the fact that each player has an alignment, a nationality, and a role (Rule #2). This, of course, implies that alignment and nationality are separate.
This is correct, though I got a 'deliberately picking the scummiest-sounding interpretation of everything' vibe off you earlier, which indicates blinkered town or railroading scum, I'm not sure yet. Though your previous post where you do ask for clarification mitigates.XScorpion wrote:PI it's kind of hard to say I'm 'twisting everything [you] say' when what you say is pretty vague and hard to understand.
Hmmm, Pappums looked like oppo scum with his first vote, but I like him better for his reaction to furc.
Ghostwriter does actually make a pretty good scum point on furc, the first I've seen- it's one thing to give up, it's another to play to survive, but to do both at once?
Hmmmm, don't like Beast's wall. Since you can't infer scum from furc's normal playstyle, you clearly can't infer obvtown either. He looked pretty town early on to me, but seems to be slipping back into furcidiocy.
Artem 199 comes across as sincere.
Hmmm, don't like Gonnano going 'Furc is antitown not scummy' then commenting at the bottom of the post. I don't see the sense in dwelling on his antitownness if you're not willing to vote for it, unless you're trying to set up a furc lynch down the road. Because, let's face it, he's Furc. HE WILL continue to play like this.
And? Bvoight has this right. FIND SOME OTHER FUCKER THEN.GhostWriter wrote:My lack of placing a vote is due to the fact that both the lead wagons are on two players who are clearly VI's.
Right. So. Who. Is. It. Then?GW wrote:No doubt, most of, if not all, of the scum are on one wagon or the other by now.
Why not today? Good God ThAdmiral is scummy. Like, srsly.ThAd wrote:
Good analysis.
I think goanna is a good person to look at tomorrow.
DP with an original vote. That looks somewhat good. Well, his reasoning is sheeping LF, but he's not following the herd. LOOK, IT MAKES SENSE IN MY HEAD OK?
gonnano keeping his options open I see.
Good Lowell point. Could it be that he's finally changed his playstyle? Please God.
I should probably note again at this point I don't think RQS is scummy per se, though I have seen scum do it. Seems to me when scum do it, it comes from a 'trying too hard to look town' place rather than a scum benefits from it place. RVS leads to wagons based on theory disagreements too- half the players say 'X is scummy, or scummy enough for an opening vote' and half the players say 'Hey what you talkin bout scum, that isn't even slightly scummy.'
Scott the MFY makes a good point re: jmj. Looks active lurky (J, not S).
Thing is, I think Pappums is a pretty big VI himself. At least, judging by his posts so far and txtmafia.
Oh Lord, PGO softclaim from PI.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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OK, I'm going totryto avoid commenting on everything for the sake of catching up faster. to page 15:
No, no it isn't. Anything antitown is at least somewhat scummy, because there's always the chance the player is hurting the townScott Brosius wrote:
This. There is a stark difference between someone who isn't helping town (anti-town) and someone who is scummy. Blurring the lines is sloppy scumhunting.bvoigt wrote: Since when are anti-town and scummy the same thing? Some actions make no sense from scum or town, and some actions only make sense from scum.
because they want to hurt the townand they think they can get away with it. Of course, with known VIs, the likelihood they're just being themselves makes it much, much less scummy.
Put it this way. If you had a VI who was being less antitown than normal. That'd be a towntell, right?
Also, you need to distinguish between things that are anti-town (ie, harmful to town but less harmful, neutral or even positive for scum) and things that are merely stupid and anti-self. Proposing D1 nolynches, for instance, is not actually antitown, because there's no way it's actually going to lead to a no-lynch happening.
/theory diversion
Don't like PapRat pre-emptively justifying wagoning lots of town.
To me, Furc's actually somewhat less antitown than normal here.Gonnano wrote:Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.
Gonnano's looking really scummy. He's gone for a lone wagon on a VI player who's actually playing better than normal, but isn't actually attacking any of the top three wagons. Says 'speed' of PI wagon is scummy, but doesn't point out any particular player on it as looking like a scummy wagon-jumper.
Don't like IPie attacking a good smargaret vote.
Pretty much agree with the GW points being made pages 11-12.
Someone is going to bullshittily try to make out that Furc's wagon hopping is a scumtell here. I guarantee it.
THAd is looking like he's genuinely scumhunting in the last page or two which makes me feel better about him.
Confident, don't care what people think of him Nacho is usually town.
Ewww, Artem votes someone for votehopping. Surprisingly, it isn't Furc. VOTEHOPPING IS NOT (in itself) A SCUMTELL PEOPLE!
IPie's defence of himself is good.
RC V. antitown for pointing out which names sound town and which sound scummy.
DP's inb4bussing post kind of makes me think he's scum, and she's town.
Really suspicious-looking justification for jumping a scummy-looking wagon.RC wrote:I don't know why I'm bothering. She's not even here defending herself.
Thanks ThAd for supplying the Furc as scum meta.-
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Check out NY111. I didn't believe it then either. Town don't look at their predecessor, they get straight to scumhunting. Gonna try to get to page 21 before I go to bed tonight.Amrun wrote:Oh, you have got to be kidding me. That's the dumbest "case" I've ever seen.
bvoigt, that is scummiest backtrack ever.-
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OK, to end page 21. There's far less that seems worthy of comment, people just seem to be Mastining their various positions. Will note that while I agree with Feysal on the principle of not letting VIs get away with it, Furc does appear to be... trying here, and is quite open and honest in his idiocy. I will try to meta him when I get the humungous catchup done. (Gonna have somewhat LA over the weekend, will be at my parents', but will def try to do at least another 5-10 pages).
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LMP seems to be thinking in a town way here. People a lot of players criticize but next to no-one actually votes are often scum. He's wrong in this instance, of course, but it's a good argument.
Dear God GW, if you're going to argue that your no1 is not viable, make a motherloving stand between whichever wagons you think ARE.
Then he votes anyway, wtf?
Basically agree with 386 (the text, not the scumlist, which I tend to ignore anyway).
Artem feels very middle of the pack to me. Lots of words, very little wrong with it, but nothing that would be particularly difficult for a scum to do either.
ThAd 437: Blah blah blah, excuses.
Just to be clear, most policy lynches are because you think the player doing them is scum (that is, you find the action so scummy that it alone is worth lynching over). That's the original meaning of policy lynch.DP wrote:... I don't policy lynch.
This is a scum lynch; not a policy lynch.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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OK. I've dropped the note-taking entirely in favor of just freaking getting to the stage where I can start participating properly.
Vote: Furculow
Early on, he looked like he was trying. But honestly, all the lying (and the fact that he only owned up to it when he was caught in a slip) and his increasingly erratic behaviour makes me think he's deliberately trying to go all out, as VI as possible, so that people make excuses for him. I often state that when you've got a mega VI, they have to look more town than their average to make me suffer them to live. And Furc looks even worse than usual over the last thirty pages. The bottom line is that, since it doesn't look like anyone's going to put a bullet in what passes for his brain- certainly, if he's town, he's not someone scum will kill, and you woulda thunk a vig would have had a shot by now if they were going to. Which means we either have to lynch him, or have him around in LyLo. Furc in LyLo would make me shudder if he were confirmed. And he's not close to it.
Also, it's not fucking AdHom just to call you an idiot. It's good sense. It would be AdHom if someone were trying to discredit a valid argument you made because it came from you (along the lines of you're a moron, therefore it can't be true). Of course, that would require you to actually formulate a valid argument, so I'm not holding my breath.
Other things: The way ThAd framed the him vs Amrun dilemma as 'My town sounding rolename' vs 'His scum sounding rolename' I don't like. Thinking maybe Kissinger is a safeclaim, or else a less obvious scum name (actually, not that un-obvious. His name, along with Nixon and LBJ, struck me as the most likely to be American scum if there was such a group). But since we don't actually know for sure there is an American scumgroup (it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there be, say, an American SK) and because his scumhunting on Day Two i felt was much better, he's not a priority.
Gonnano... meh. He certainly looked scummy early on, but a lot of the case against him seems to be 'too defensive.' And I FUCKING HATE the too defensive argument.
DP is scummy for all the obvious reasons. RedCoyote is someone I think might be good scum. The kind who has a good, town-sounding excuse for everything he does, but doesn't give me the sense he's really trying hard to find scum. A la Benmage in Simpsons mafia.-
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LOL. Having succeeded wonderfully with a couple of 'That sounds like a warlike name!1!' wagons, are we going to see a wagon die on the basis of 'that sounds like a peaceful name?' I mean, don't get me wrong, i don't really see how anything smarg has done is worse than the equivalent actions from DP. But letting someone you think is scum off the hook because of their name... man.bvoigt wrote:UNVOTE: smargaret
Brandt does look pretty peaceful.
If smarg is truthful, then the fact that Brandt is a neighbour rather than a mason makes me think a Yanqui scum group is likely.
Yeah, and you being a horrific detriment to town, and the guy who pointed out you playing to your scum meta having been NKed aren't good reasons or anything.Furcolow wrote:the fonz = jmj
wonderful
now i know why hes voting me
If that's the case, there's probably scum on all the wagons. The thing is, unless you've got a strong inclination that there's a particularly large or small concentration, that's of little use. Because knowing that there is at least one scum in ten people doesn't narrow it down any more than random lynching would.EGL wrote:Would it make sense to say that, regardless of Smarg's alignment, there's probably some sort of scum on the Smarg wagon IFF there are two scum groups?-
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This stinks. As BV said, the whole freaking point of neighbours is that one can be scum when the other's town. Or even rival scum. I've never seen a scum claim neighbor who wasn't (though actually, come to think of it it's a brilliant idea). If he flipped scum, it probably would confirm that the two are connected- like, by being neighbours.gonnano wrote: I think we need to consider some ways to use smarg's roleclaim to our advantage. Neighbor makes plenty of sense as a mafia fakeclaim, for obvious reasons, and even though Scott says he's never seen it before, I'm sure it's been done.
If smarg's neighbor/scumbuddy decides to confirm smarg's claim, then we can be pretty certain that the two people are linked. If one of the two later flips mafia, then we've got a guaranteed scum. So I think that would be a good idea to move forward with.
Also:
Neighbours usually get each other's rolenames. If it were a one-scumgroup game and they were soviets, it would become pretty obvious to the (presumably East German) neighbour that Willy Brandt is not Soviet, because that would require a leap of flavour magnitudes bigger than even the ones we've seen so far. It's far, far more likely an East German neighbour would be unsure as to whether his partner is an American stooge or not.
Can you explain this some more? I'm having trouble making the connection.Fonz wrote:If smarg is truthful, then the fact that Brandt is a neighbour rather than a mason makes me think a Yanqui scum group is likely.-
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To those advocating 'Bvoight and Gonnano' as suspects- would the alignment of either influence your view of the other? IE, do you think their interactions look scumbuddyish, or do you think each is a top suspect independent of the other?
Personally, Gonnano doesn't look that scummy. But Bvoight doesn't look scummy at all to me.-
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That's actually a pretty decent reason. Though I think his individual scumminess has been blown out of proportion. I'd lynch him over BV, who probably isn't in the top third of the scummiest players in the game for me, but I'd rather lynch you, DP or ThAd in that order before him.Furcolow wrote:I would rather lynch Gonnano than Bvoigt, Fonz.
Reasoning is sort of weak, as it relies on how many wagons have been attempted on Gonnano yet stalled/failed/fizzled-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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WIFOMFurcolow wrote:the only time i have ever claimed doctor as scum i really was a doctor
why would i retract my claim as scum
that makes no sense
WIFOMi just dont see the motivation for my play as scum
I doif you all feel i'm a lylobility, go for it,
BULLSHIT. THERE ISbut now is the time for OMGUSING for me because the only people pushing me will be on one of the scum teams trying to confuse town into thinking a mislynch is applicable with 4v3 on the scumteamsEVERYREASON FOR TOWN TO WANT YOU DEAD. Like Llamafluff did, before he was nightkilled N1.
OMGUS, and admitting it doesn't make it betteryou know, it isn't
you're stuck with me, town
don't be dumb and play into this bullshit
unvote;
vote:jmjthe fonz
Your last sentence doesn't even make sense. A guy who lurks then flakes out is clearly someone who didn't have time or motivation to play rather than a tactical lurker, that's grade A scummy mudslinging there. I've never said your meta isn't horrible. I would say you're the worst player ever, but sadly I've played with Ah2190, Shotty, and Mist, so you're not even top three. What your meta has not to my knowledge included is lying about your role as town.Anyone remember the d1 jmj wagon where the guy lurked and then replaced?
Wonder why someone is pushing me, acting like my meta isn't horrible as town?
Scum.
My name on this site is synonymous with lynch all liars. That is, I believe that the majority of people who lie about their roles are scum, and trying to make excuses for particular liars costs more games in terms of letting lying scum off the hook than mislynching a few idiotic townies does.
Even by the standards of people who lie about their roles, your lie became public knowledge in a particularly scummy way- you slipped, then tried to pretend it wasn't a big deal, then admitted it and changed your claim to try to save yourself. People who do that are just overwhelmingly, like 90% of the time, scum. Your general level of idiocy might make it less likely than that, but to me you're still pretty much as likely as anyone in the game to be scum. Which coupled with the fact that if you're town, you're less useful than Miley Cyrus in an acting competition, makes me want you dead. When I play with VIs, generally I'm happy to lynch them unless I've got a concrete reason to think them more likely than a random lynch to come up town. With you, you're a VI who has more reason than the average player to think you scum.-
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Why would you need to change your nameclaim, though? I mean, each change just increases the chances of counterclaiming. He only changed the bits of his claimFeysal wrote:It's about time I got something done in this game. I've been combing through Artem's ISO and certain other parts of the game trying to get reads, and I've had some limited success. For starters, Furcolow.
Amazingly, I've reached the conclusion that Furcolow is probably town after all. Despite all his lies and scummy play. The main reason is that Furcolow claimed Heydar Aliyev, and though he has repeatedly changed his role claim, his name claim has remained constant.on which he was called out as a liar.
I don't see anything that couldn't have been a bus at either end between those two. As for the rest of your list, I wouldn't be so sure. I mean, the notion that scum don't bus unless they have to doesn't really hold, I don't think.-
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The problem with claiming watcher results is that, if you see someone visit your target, and the target didn't die, chances are those players are town power roles, and claiming results will out them. Regardless, there's no reason not to at the very least list the players watched and how many visited them each night.ThAdmiral wrote:Yeah if you claim and information role you MUST give results and reasons why you chose those people.
I have to say, I am very skeptical of this claim. For starters, the way he claimed- not only did he not give results, he didn't give flavor justification. Now I know, OGM, and I could certainly see the rolename as town or scum, but I have a real hard time seeing Kadar as a power role. Kadar was the Hungarian dictator put in place by the Soviets after they crushed the Nagy-led Hungarian Revolution in the 50s, and he basically stayed in power by keeping his head down, introducing some mild liberalizing reforms but not rocking the boat too much.-
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Yeah, this is a great point, apart from it being utterly untrue. I made my vote for Furc when there was only one vote on Gonnano, and six on smargaret. The idea that I pushed Furcolow 'to save Gonnano' does not jibe with even a cursory reading of the game. Considering that no-one new joined the Furc wagon after I did, it would also be a stretch to suggest that I 'took over the town.' When the gonanno wagon sprung up, I continued to push Furc because not one iota of my reason for voting him had gone- people who lie about their roles, and especially people who get caught out lying rather than coming clean, are overwhelmingly often scum, therefore they must be lynched as a policy. It's a strange world in which 'Fonz did not change his behaviour in reaction to a Gonnano wagon springing up' is an associative tell with Gonnano.Beasts of the Sea wrote:
With gonnano's flip I think Furcolow hit the nail on the head (bolded emphasis mine).Furcolow wrote:this wagon has had the amount of opposition I would expect from the 3 man team if Fonz is Gonnano's ally and is distancing
I'm going to keep my vote here, and hope that the 3 man team gets knocked down to 2 here and the Fonz is outted associatively through not wanting to place his vote on Gonnano even if he doesn't really believe the claim in his #1792
It's of note that Fonz is taking over the town and pushing them against me/protecting Gonnano, though so I could argue both sides of the coin.
Before the Gonnano wagon came along, I stated that I found Gonnano scummy early on, but that overall I found the case on him to be somewhat overblown relative to say, DavidParker, who had done pretty much everything bad Gonnano did AND lied about his role.
Can I at least ask people this: if ThAd turns out to be scum, will people at least very strongly consider killing DP for 'clearing' him, then retracting it later when the danger had gone?
As for the claim, I've seen too many dumbass quicklynches in my recent town games to risk another one here, given that Gonnano claimed power. I mean, were you really expecting me to vote a claimed PR before he'd even given results, based mostly on flavor when we've seen just how effective trying to outguess the mod has been so far? Plus, people's reactions to claims are some of the best evidence you can get. I was in no mood to cut the day short before as many people as possible had commented. Finally, note that Gon flipped goon, not scum watcher, so a buddy would have known he didn't have real results to save him. Do you really think a buddy of Gonnano's there wouldn't have realized that he was going down, hard?
Or, you know, blatantly obviously genuine scumhunting. When lots of people say 'Bvoight today, Gonnano tomorrow' there can be several things behind it. They can genuinely think they're scum and connected to each other. They can think they are both scum, but completely unconnected. And, in particular, they can be Gonnano buddies who are claiming to think Gonnano is scum with links to Bvoight, but looking to use a Bvoight town flip as an excuse to stop bussing their buddy. I was suspicious of people making these kind of statements because I had a town read on bvoight, therefore either the latter scenario or lining up lynches were both possible motivations for those making those kind of comments. I wanted to pin these players down.Beasts wrote:
Fishing for relationships on people you don't find scummy? This is clearly trying to determine how to maneuver to benefit his and gonnano's team in the event that it heads that direction (collateral damage?).The Fonz wrote:To those advocating 'Bvoight and Gonnano' as suspects- would the alignment of either influence your view of the other? IE, do you think their interactions look scumbuddyish, or do you think each is a top suspect independent of the other?
Personally, Gonnano doesn't look that scummy. But Bvoight doesn't look scummy at all to me.
This is disingenuous. People were meta defending Furcolow. I was pointing out that, of all the VI behaviour I have seen from him in the past (played two games with him, and read another as meta during one of those), I have never seen him lie about his role as town. I am quite happy to defend Furc when I think, in spite of his VI nature, he looks town. I was doing it during my early catchup posts, before he lied about his role, and I did it in Mafia in Mendo when Furc made his 'assuming scum have daytalk' townslip. The point I am making is that Furc is particularly antitown and scummy in this game, even for him. If we don't lynch him here, it's difficult to imagine what he could actually do that would lead anyone to ever vote him.Then, 1737 - 1739, his three posts are all just really slandering Furcolow based on past games, and the third comment is just trying to add icing on the cake to cement it as a legitimate alternative to the gonnano wagon.
Well, that comment was pretty thorough. More to the point, though, 'Is lurking, and not getting heat for it' is good town reasoning, I use it a lot. Generally, when there are multiple people committing a particular scummy act, and other players focus on some of them to the exclusion of others, that is an associative tell. It's the exact same reasoning Lowell used to kick off the Gonnano wagon yesterday.BoTS wrote:
Mothrax also advocates for his desire to see gonnano's flip above all else with no other commentary about the player slot otherwise, and this comment shortly after having declared confusion over Amrun/PI still being alive. Then mothrax said in the interest of deadlines he would be voting Amrun/PI...
Feysal's ISO 28 imho contained as much content as anything anyone else did all day.ThAdmiral wrote:Feysel certainly did not provide all that much.
He has hardly votedthis entire game.
You mean, a wagon on a player that was largely based on the fact that he wasn't posting much, then he got replaced? Yeah, why on Earth would that ever die.Furcolow wrote:wow, two wagons i LOVE
glad this game is back open
fonz REPLACED JMJ. Remember that wagon on d1? I can't believe it died!
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I've completed two games with you since I returned to the site, and in one of those I was scum. Apart from the fact I replaced in, I don't really see how my play here is too different to Simpsons, except for maybe that people actually listened to me there when I told them to wagon the scummy looking VI.Lowell wrote:I like beasts' case on Fonz. Sorta fits with what I was thinking, that fonz seems somehow different in this game than in others I've played with him.
You could also argue that taking a stand on a wagon earlier requires more courage in your convictions than jumping on to hammer. In general, though, Feysal looks like he's doing his damnedest to help the town when he does post, whereas EGL looks like he's coasting. The latter, imho, is a MUCH better wagon.Lowell wrote:Of the other two leaders, feysal lynch makes a lot more sense than EGL. Hammering two town isn't great, but to some extent I'd say at least it shows courage and looks better than just riding the wagon somewhere in the middle. That's WIFOM like whoa, I realize, but it's enough to make me call the hammers a null tell.-
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So now you're basing your suspicion on something that might hypothetically happen, but actually hasn't? Furc, considering your original case on me was mostly based on 'ties' to Gonnano, to drop that and still be making out I'm scum seems dishonest to me. Massive confirmation bias at best.Furcolow wrote:Watch for PeregrineV unvoting Fonz soon if his wagon picks up-
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Except that I haven't disregarded everything else. I've made clear my position on Feysal (townish) and EGL (scummy). I'm not going to throw four years of being an ardent Lynch All Liars advocate out the window because some other people have a town read on Furc, but I'm also clearly not using it as an excuse to avoid commenting on other issues. Also, if I'm attacked by something I don't think is fair or reasonable, of course I'm going to point it out.
If someone were to say 'Look, Gonnano was really obvious scum, and I can't believe Fonz didn't spot it' that would at least be a decent argument, because when a scum is lynched it is usually better to look off-wagon unless they're really, really obv. But to claim that I'm playing differently when I'm not, that I'm ignoring issues unrelated to self-defence or Furc being scum when I've clearly made my views on the other available wagons known, to claim a link with another player on the basis of something he may or may not do in the future- these are terrible excuses to attack someone, and I'm going to make that known.-
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I really don't understand what you're pushing here. I've commented on as many different players today as anyone alive.LynchMePls wrote: So on Day four of a large theme game, other than your Furc pushing, you've commented on Feysal and EGL. But you're not hiding behind Furc. Yeah, ok...
OH HAI "I don't really find Fonz scummy, but I'll look for an excuse to jump the wagon if it gets close to lynch."Stephoscope wrote:
Like you, I'm not sure I understand the Fonz wagon. I remember losing to him once when he was scum, though, so I'm going to go back and see if anything seems to match. Stay tuned.Scott Brosius wrote: Do you have opinions on anyone else?
No, I'm not. You contended that I was pushing Furc to save Gonnano. I was using the exact same arguments to push Furc when Gonnano was at threat as when Smargaret was at threat. The Gonnano wagon was available when I voted Furc first, but I preferred the Furcwagon. To my mind, when you accuse someone of 'pushing X to save Y' it implies that saving Y is the major motivation behind your push of X. And that doesn't make any sense since I was pushing Furc with the exact same line of reasoning I was before Gonnano was in danger.Beasts of the Sea wrote:.
You are over simplifying the situation by only looking at the snapshot of when you first voted Furcolow. Even when gonnano's wagon was building you did not comment on it other than saying you didn't think gonnano was scum.The Fonz wrote:Yeah, this is a great point, apart from it being utterly untrue. I made my vote for Furc when there was only one vote on Gonnano, and six on smargaret. The idea that I pushed Furcolow 'to save Gonnano' does not jibe with even a cursory reading of the game.
Incidentally, I never said I didn't think Gonnano was scum. I had a neutral-ish, mildly scummy read on him, but thought others were much scummier and that the case on him was overblown. I said I thought Bvoight was explicitly town.
To point out that I am well aware of Furc's rep for idiocy and erratic play, and that that wasn't why I was voting him: specifically, that I felt his play in this game was specifically scummy even taking into account my meta knowledge of him, because a) Despite all the stupid things I'd seen him do, lying as town wasn't one of them and b) his lies in this game seemed particularly survival-orientated and therefore scummy: claiming BP has obvious motive for scum wanting to avoid potential rival scum's nightkills, and claiming doctor when caught out seems designed to avoid getting lynched, and c) he didn't change his claim spontaneously, as you might expect someone just being erratic to do; he changed it in response to being caught in a lie, which is what you'd expect scum to do.BOTS wrote:Then you kept pushing at Furcolow for other game related reasons as to build more of a case even though his previous play has nothing to do with the reasons you were currently voting Fucolow (he lied repeatedly). What was the point of bringing up hammer claimed cops and talking about ongoing games other than to smear him?
It's not disengenuous at all. Specific VIs have specific ways of being VIish. Early ABR lied about his role as town all the time. MafiaSSK lurks like a mofo and doesn't give content. Other VIs omgus constantly or sheep all the time. You can't throw a generic 'VI' blanket over someone and therefore allow them to do anything antitown they want.And the point about others meta defending him is disingenuous as well because I read the "meta defending" as not look at these specific behaviors in comparison with other games but rather the overall playstyle, erratic behavior, and unpredictability and not the emulation of the same things from previous games.
The former is only really possible if LMP is his partner and decided that he was going down despite the claim so he might as well get some town cred. If the scum had actual watching results and LMP wasn't his partner, he wouldn't have got caught out on his claim.BOTS wrote:
You make an interesting point about gonnano not flipping his claimed role. Do you think one of his partners is a watcher and he claimed those results or was he going for complete BS in hopes he was correct in nobody visiting the people he claimed?The Fonz wrote:Finally, note that Gon flipped goon, not scum watcher, so a buddy would have known he didn't have real results to save him. Do you really think a buddy of Gonnano's there wouldn't have realized that he was going down, hard?
Claiming BS results and hoping no-one counterclaims them is incredibly risky relative to claiming actual watching results.To answer your question what would the scum buddy do at the point, knowing he was claiming something false? The partner could:- Call him a liar and say he's lying about his role;
- Hammer him without the claimed results, knowing whatever results he made were either totally fake or actual results from another team member;
- Avoid the thread and see what happens; or,
- Stall a little bit, be wishy washy on whether or not his real or not and hope that people wouldn't want to hammer a claimed watcher.
If you really believe this, then why do you think it was scummyBOTS wrote:Gonnano was going down hard regardless of his claim being real or not, which is obvious by the fact that his claim did relatively nothing to deter his wagon.
[quote="BOTS"}
You actually had a town read on both, so in that context where and how were you scumhunting with that line of questioning? The bolded is exactly what I believe you to have been doing. You were determining the public opinion of those two to figure out the best way to push it through. Maybe I have it backwards and you and bvoit are partners, but asking for the suspicion level of the pair when both of them are town (in your opinion) is scummy because you should have been advocating for them being town instead. [/quote]The Fonz wrote:Or, you know, blatantly obviously genuine scumhunting. When lots of people say 'Bvoight today, Gonnano tomorrow' there can be several things behind it. They can genuinely think they're scum and connected to each other. They can think they are both scum, but completely unconnected. And, in particular,they can be Gonnano buddies who are claiming to think Gonnano is scum with links to Bvoight, but looking to use a Bvoight town flip as an excuse to stop bussing their buddy. I was suspicious of people making these kind of statements because I had a town read on bvoight, therefore either the latter scenario or lining up lynches were both possible motivations for those making those kind of comments. I wanted to pin these players down.
I didn't claim a town read on both. The more town of the two imho (Bvoight) was the one people were trying to lynch first. The bolded doesn't even make sense. You think I'm scum with Gonnano, and was trying to use the 'Well bvoight was town so now I don' suspect Gonnano no more' kind of argument argument when I made quite clear I THOUGHT BVOIGHT WAS TOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE, and therefore never bought into any kind of 'Bvoight and Gonnano' theory?
Also, it never hurts to ask people to put their reasoning behind 'X, then Y' statements out in the open. It's easier as you put it to 'advocate for someone being town' when you know what the case people are trying to make on them is.-
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Sorry for triple post:
If you really believe this, then why do you think it was scummy of me not to vote Gonnano, when you seem to think it was obvious he couldn't be saved anyway? If what you say is true, there's very little downside to a partner bussing there.BOTS wrote: Gonnano was going down hard regardless of his claim being real or not, which is obvious by the fact that his claim did relatively nothing to deter his wagon.-
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Furc, that you were acting like you didn't think there was a second scumgroup doesn't mean the possibility wasn't discussed in your QT. Also, claiming BP might protect you from being vigged, which is an obvious danger for furcscum.
I still don't like the Feysal wagon. If no-one's willing to join me on Furc, or to wagon Peregrine who also lied, I will support a Steph or EGL wagon in opposition.-
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DavidParker wrote:I have role-related information that ThAd is town at this point. Will not reveal further.
Peregrine, this is where your slot lied.DavidParker wrote:BTW, I have no reason to believe ThAd is town, that was all baloney earlier.
As for Steph, he's kinda lurkish, and he's tunnelling on a player I think is town. That's a much better lynch than Feysal.
As for Steph's 'Did you miss this?' I was posting as I went along with my immediate reactions. That said, your later backing off doesn't really strike me as particularly significant either way.-
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I get the feeling there is something weird going on here. Think about it, there were tons of non Soviet or US nationalities flipped by then, so we can't reasonably suppose Feysal is 'East German Soviet Mafia' who thought that everyone was either US or Soviet. Gonnano claimed to be Hungarian, not Soviet or Soviet Hungarian. Therefore, it's likely that particular scum group knew all too well that the safe thing to do was to claim the nationality but not the soviet modifier, in which case he would just have claimed East German neighbor.
Feysal isn't a VI. It's not reasonable to assume he was scum who was unaware of the above. Therefore, the most likely reason I can think of to claim to be a 'Soviet Neighbor' isthat's what his PM actually says.That leaves a couple of possibilities. Mod error, intentional bastardry, one or other didn't read the PM properly, or that Smargaret is lying.
The 'we should trust each other' thing does give me pause, and I'd like an explanation of that, but I'd also like both to request mod clarification here, because something isn't adding up. If Smargaret comes back and says 'Yes the mod has re-iterated that Feysal's rolename is East German' and Feysal comes back and says 'Mod has confirmed my rolename is soviet, not East German' then we have an either/or since the alternative would be directly lying to the players. But I want to exhaust all other possibilities first.-
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I completely disagree with this. I mean, it's pretty common knowledge Honecker was East German. My immediate reaction to a 'Soviet neighbor' claim was 'well that's weird.' More to the point,ThAdmiral wrote:
It's not so obvious that it would definitely have been picked up. I doubt if smarg hadn't mentioned it anyone else would have noticed.The Fonz wrote:
It just strikes me as a really, really bizarre kind of mistake for a remotely competent scum player to make.smargaret wrote:Fonz, I was looking at my role pm when I wrote that post. Furthermore, Erich Honnecker cannot be Soviet in nationality - that just wasn't true.a member of the Soviet mafiawas aware enough of it already to claim nationality-only.
It's not a good point, regardless of what the role PM said, Honecker was East German, and lived his entire life in Germany/East Germany (apart from a year spent in Moscow) until the fall of the wall. If you're going to breadcrumb Honecker, of course you'd breadcrumb East German. If you breadcrumbed Russian, someone would go 'Why did you crumb Russian when your role is a German person?' and use that as an argument for him being scum. This just underlines my point- Feysal's crumb makes it explicitly clear he knew exactly who Honecker was, and what his nationality was.Furcolow wrote:That's a good point, Sathoris, it makes me not even want to be Fey-stalling with my vote
In order for that to be a slip, Feysal would have to be paying absolutely no attention to the thread, and the scum would have to not have discussed fakeclaiming at all in their QT (or Feysal didn't pay attention there, too).
At the end of the day, if both players stick to their stories as stated so far, we've got no choice but to lynch Feysal. But it still strikes me that there's something fishy here.-
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I'm trying to work out what your actual problem is here. Do you not think you should always lynch in non-lylo situations where two players claim contradicting role information, especially when neither is a 'power role' per se? Is it not a no-brainer? And do you really think it matters whether I personally join this wagon or not? I have made quite clear that I have a town read on Feysal. Nonetheless, if this isLynchMePls wrote:
I'm not crazy about the "we've got no choice" bit here. It's preparing for a move to the wagon but if the flip goes the other way it's like "well, we had no choice...".Fonz wrote:At the end of the day, if both players stick to their stories as stated so far, we've got no choice but to lynch Feysal. But it still strikes me that there's something fishy here.nota case of player or mod error, we have two players claiming contradicting information.
The most obvious explanation would be to protect his buddy ThAd. The second most obvious is to buddy up to ThAd-town. Both of those are more likely than 'He really thought ThAd was town and it was worth the risk' because the risk there is HUGE for town.PeregrineV wrote: @The Fonz- I have no idea why David Parker lied. Why do you think he lied?
The first two follow, then the third is just a massive leap. If I thought he wasn't scummy at all, I would have said so. Look at my catchup post. I found his early behaviour troubling, but later on the arguments against him seemed to be blown out of all proportion. He was probably in the top half of scummiest players, but there were something like 4-5 people I wanted dead sooner, and I was uncomfortable with people trying to tie him to bvoight, who again, I read as town.Beasts of the Sea wrote:
I read "gonnano isn't that scummy" as "he's not worth pushing a lynch on" and "he's not as scummy as everyone else thinks" and "he's pretty much not scum".The Fonz wrote:Incidentally, I never said I didn't think Gonnano was scum. I had a neutral-ish, mildly scummy read on him, but thought others were much scummier and that the case on him was overblown. I said I thought Bvoight was explicitly town.
The Fonz wrote:No, I'm not. You contended that I was pushing Furc to save Gonnano. I was using the exact same arguments to push Furc when Gonnano was at threat as when Smargaret was at threat. The Gonnano wagon was available when I voted Furc first, but I preferred the Furcwagon. To my mind, when you accuse someone of 'pushing X to save Y' it implies that saving Y is the major motivation behind your push of X. And that doesn't make any sense since I was pushing Furc with the exact same line of reasoning I was before Gonnano was in danger.The Fonz wrote:To point out that I am well aware of Furc's rep for idiocy and erratic play, and that that wasn't why I was voting him: specifically, that I felt his play in this game was specifically scummy even taking into account my meta knowledge of him, because a) Despite all the stupid things I'd seen him do, lying as town wasn't one of them and b) his lies in this game seemed particularly survival-orientated and therefore scummy: claiming BP has obvious motive for scum wanting to avoid potential rival scum's nightkills, and claiming doctor when caught out seems designed to avoid getting lynched, and c) he didn't change his claim spontaneously, as you might expect someone just being erratic to do; he changed it in response to being caught in a lie, which is what you'd expect scum to do.
Wait, what? This statement here is basically a paraphrase of 'his behaviour in this specific games stands out as scummy, even given his meta' and yet it's like you're trying to act like it's a contradiction of it. It implies knowledge of his meta, and that his play in this game stands out as being particularly bad ie scummy.BoTS wrote:I think your are going out of your way to interpret your previous posts incorrectly. Your post here barely assigns motive only to his behavior being isolated to this game because you said "but this behavior is bad even for him".
Seriously, wtf? How does adding another example of erratic play that I'm aware of (therefore elaborating on the fact that I am all too familiar with Furc's meta) contradictAnd that doesn't make any sense with your afterthought here.anythingin the earlier point? Essentially, my explanation here, being true, makes perfect sense. Your interpretation of it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Your argument is basically that I was doing the exact opposite of what I was actually doing: trying to get Furc lynched for merely being his erratic self when quite obviously, the whole point of bringing up Furc's erratic meta in the first place was to make clear that I was NOT doing precisely this- his play in this game stood out as scummy with full knowledge of his tendency to be erratic.
Again, what's your actual point here? I said 'Well his partners would have known he was going down due to the watcher thing, and therefore it would have been really easy to bus.' Your counterargument appears to be 'No, it would have been really easy to bus anyway.' How does this make me not voting him any scummier? If anything, it just strengthens my point.Beasts wrote:
You are downplaying the situation considerably. If gonnano wasn't lynched and was a claimed watcher how long do you really think he would have survived until endgame and never been revealed?The Fonz wrote:The former is only really possible if LMP is his partner and decided that he was going down despite the claim so he might as well get some town cred. If the scum had actual watching results and LMP wasn't his partner, he wouldn't have got caught out on his claim.
And I thought i'd answered this. Emphatically not, for obvious reasons.BOTS wrote:
Which is why I asked you if you thought he was on a scum team with an actual watcher. Do you think that is the case or not?The Fonz wrote:Claiming BS results and hoping no-one counterclaims them is incredibly risky relative to claiming actual watching results.
But again, this is a really reachy, confirmation bias-y argument. It's simple. I wanted the people attacking them to explain themselves, and commit to a position. Which is protown. It's like you read it and thought 'Well how can I make Fonz asking this question sound scummy?'BOTS wrote:
I started looking at you more closely when I was reading back over gonnano, but as I said it isn't out of the realm of possibility that you may be scum with bvoit. In either situation you determining which order others find them scummy is scummy because you should have been advocating for your solid town read and the person who "isn't that scummy" to not be lynched; not weigh out the order in which people would like to lynch them.The Fonz wrote:I didn't claim a town read on both. The more town of the two imho (Bvoight) was the one people were trying to lynch first. The bolded doesn't even make sense. You think I'm scum with Gonnano, and was trying to use the 'Well bvoight was town so now I don' suspect Gonnano no more' kind of argument argument when I made quite clear I THOUGHT BVOIGHT WAS TOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE, and therefore never bought into any kind of 'Bvoight and Gonnano' theory?-
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Hi, blatant weaselly semantic misrepresentation!PeregrineV wrote:
So, by the bolded part above, you know ThAd is town?The Fonz wrote:
The most obvious explanation would be to protect his buddy ThAd.PeregrineV wrote: @The Fonz- I have no idea why David Parker lied. Why do you think he lied?The second most obvious is to buddy up to ThAd-town. Both of those are more likely than 'He really thought ThAd was town and it was worth the risk' because the risk there is HUGE for town.
The second possibility requires ThAd to be town, but the first requires him to be scum. The point being, it's really scummy either way. Can you not read, or do you just have dodgy motives?-
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No, clearly there isn't. The only thing you've changed is to add the word 'scum' to 'buddy' in the second one, but 'buddy' in this context so blatantly obviously means scumbuddy that no reasonable person would interpret it any other way. No one in a mafia game to my knowledge has ever said 'X is Y's buddy' and meant that they were literally friends.PeregrineV wrote: And, to anyone reading, is there a difference?
Uh, I answered the question? You know, the bit you twisted?Perhaps you mean something else. Why do you think David Parker might have lied? Please be as specific as you can.
Two. And read others. But what's your point? I'm well aware of your rep as one of the worst VIs in the history of the site.Furcolow wrote:Fonz said "(therefore elaborating on the fact that I am all too familiar with Furc's meta)"
You have played HOW MANY games with me?
If ANYONE here OTHER THAN ME is up to snuff on my meta, it would be ThAd.
Quoting out of context, another common misrepresentation tactic. This is from a catchup post, relating to the early part of day one. You appeared to be making scumhunting effort, staying relevant, etc. As time went on, you became more antitown, but more to the point, YOU LIED ABOUT YOUR ROLE. Of course I'm going to change my view on a player who does the single action which most closely corresponds to being scum, and not only that but does it in a way that screams 'self-preservation.'Furcolow wrote:
cut,The Fonz wrote:
To me, Furc's actually somewhat less antitown than normal here.Gonnano wrote:Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.
Gonnano's looking really scummy. He's gone for a lone wagon on a VI player who's actually playing better than normal, but isn't actually attacking any of the top three wagons.
Thanks ThAd for supplying the Furc as scum meta.
but,
wut?
sup?-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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No, the way I stated it was that the town has essentially no choice, which is correct. If we have what we appear to have, it's effectively the same as a claimed cop investigation, or a counterclaim of a role where it is known there's only one. What I do want to do is absolutely ensure that thatLynchMePls wrote:
My problem is the way you stated it was "well, I'll do this, but I don't really wanna..." You set yourself up to distance as far from it as possible. I find people who undermine their own positions scummy.Fonz wrote:I'm trying to work out what your actual problem is here. Do you not think you should always lynch in non-lylo situations where two players claim contradicting role information, especially when neither is a 'power role' per se? Is it not a no-brainer? And do you really think it matters whether I personally join this wagon or not? I have made quite clear that I have a town read on Feysal. Nonetheless, if this is not a case of player or mod error, we have two players claiming contradicting information.iswhat we're dealing with, before we commit to a lynch.
What I don't want to see is a boatload of 'Well why would scum sacrifice themselves like that?' WIFOM with regard to smargaret tomorrow if Feysal flips town. The current theory I'm running over is actually that Smarg is scum, and her PM doesn't contradict Feysal's, but she's convinced he's rival scum regardless and wants to ensure he goes down.
A question: would you be attacking me in the same way if I'd described it as a 'No-brainer' rather than 'having no choice?'-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Doesn't necessarily work like that. Scum also want to get rid of power roles, etc. Also, you might be getting outvoted in your QT.
However, I will say that the fact that you don't back off from the notion that what you claim about your pm has to make him scum with no wriggle room for if he flips town speaks in your favor.
@LMP: Fair enough, though it just contributes to my growing sense of frustration that I feel like everything I say is being attacked based on semantics, rather than intent. "This is the only choice" and "This is by far and away the best choice" are to my mind identical, and I again don't like the attack on the basis of something I might, possibly, do in the future, when in fact I have never had any intention of doing as such: My explanation then will be, as it is now, that when someone claims someone is 100% scum based on role information, lynching them is always the only reasonable course of action for a town to take, save for perhaps the scenario where it's a PR counterclaim and it's possible to work out which is which quickly.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Lowell looks even more town to me now. He showed the courage of his convictions. In keeping with what was said yesterday, I really don't hold that mislynch against anyone on the wagon (especially since two scum on the wagon died overnight). I'd have been on it had I got online, I think. The way Smargaret described the situation, it was a no-brainer to vote Feysal: you can't just ignore someone claiming to have role-related information on someone that makes them 100% scum, so yes, I stand by the assertion that town had no real option but a Feysal lynch.
Now please, can we not get into the WIFOM of 'Why would Smargaret claim that if it weren't true, since 1-1s aren't good for scum?' My guess is precisely that she was relying on that kind of wifom, or like I said before, she was American scum who was convinced Feysal was Soviet and thought that removing her scum neighbor would make her look good/help get that nightkill out of the way quicker. The only alternatives are a massive failure of reading comprehension on Smarg's part (not likely, especially after I asked her to check carefully) or severe bastard modding (nigh-on impossible).
Vote: Smargaret-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Hungarian and Vietnamese are neither Soviet nor US, and you ought to have been aware of this.smargaret wrote:There is probably no more than one Soviet scum left; my suspicion is EGL for reasons stated yesterday. I need to reread for connections with SB.
Fonz:
1. The other mafia is US mafia. West German is neither Soviet nor US.
What he said in the QT was sketchy, no doubt. But that's not why he was lynched. He was lynched because you said explicitly that your role PM told you that his nationality was not what he claimed it to be. I could understand YOU voting him on the basis of 'Let's trust each other' and 'Honecker being Soviet is historically inaccurate.' (Though note, you claimed to have a town read on your partner in the post where you first claimed neighbour, and yet most of the stuff you later said was suspicious in the QT came before that). It's quite another thing to claim that he was 100% scum on the basis of role information.2. I had no choice in voting him either; what he said in the QT was suspicious enough to warrant outing him and then his own refusal to post confirmed it.
Improbable roles are not bastard modding. Mods have to do something to enable scum to claim without instantly outing themselves. Directly telling a player his rolename is X, and telling his neighbour that the first player's rolename is Y, are. The difference between the two is quite enormous.3. Why are you disregarding bastard modding after Che and McCarthy flipped town?
That's why I asked you, directly, if your role PM said something along the lines of "You can talk via this quicktopic to Feysal, who is anEast German Neighbor" or "Your counterpart on the East German side of the wall is Feysal aka Erich Honecker, and you may communicate with him via QT," which allowed for some ambiguity. You made very clear there was nothing ambiguous there. Why should there be now?
Yes, but if you can't see the distinction I was drawing there between you, who lied, and those who took reasonable and pro-town actions on the basis of claimed role information that turned out to be false, then heaven help us. Given the information you claimed to have, anyone would have supported that lynch. The problem was that you, clearly, cannot have had what you said you had.Clearly, youdohold the mislynch against someone.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Smargaret, there's a difference here. You're now saying 'My role PM did not call Feysal a Soviet Neighbor.' What you said yesterday was 'My role PM says the Feysal is NOT a soviet neighbor.'
When I asked specifically if it was possible that there was any room for interpretation. I asked specifically if your pm contained Feysal's actual rolename, or something vaguer that left open the possibility of him being truthful.my role pm lists his nationality as something other than Soviet
IE, given your claimed role PM, there was no way that Feysal could be town. Feysal was town. Therefore, you must die. You're doing exactly what I thought you'd do today given the flip, ie yesterday making out that he was 100% scum because of what your role PM said and today making out that it was ambiguous and didn't necessarily make him auto-scum, but you thought him scum for other reasons.Fonz, I was looking at my role pm when I wrote that post-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Generally, I find two word pm quotes of rolenames etc are normally ok.
But more to the point, if I'm given the choice between believing 'This player is scum' or 'the mod made a mistake' I'm going to go with the former every time, because I think I've only ever seen one example of the latter, against several scum using it as an excuse (plus one occasion when the player had just horribly misread her role pm).
You can yell at the mod later if necessary.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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So? Why shouldn't I be voting, or saying who needs to die? It's not like it's kingmaker or anything. Me stating that Smargaret needs to go isn't going to make her die instantly.Furcolow wrote:Hold your horses, Fonz, a lot of people haven't even checked in yet this cycle.
One of these days people will let you give scum and town reads without making asinine insinuations. You look town. Sue me.Lowell wrote:checking in. offhand fonz' "lowell looks so town" looks like he's buttering me up. not a fan.-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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More inclined? Seriously, are you actually on the same planet as me here? She claims to have role info that someone is 100% scum, he flips town and you think that makes her MORE likely to be town?Beasts of the Sea wrote: Actually Fonz, with Feysal's flip I'mmore inclined[b/]to believe that smarg is town. I don't see how the scum teams would be balanced with one having a neighbor role and the other team not. To me it just looks like you're trying to get a flash wagon started on smarg before anyone else has time to weigh in on the issue.
And flash wagon? WTF? I'm voting her because this may actually be the biggest no brainer in the history of mafia. Good God, how egregious an act does a player have to come out with in this game to get a wagon going? What the hell is wrong with coming in and getting straight to the point? I mean, later in this post you come in and make out that enigma not voting for or attacking his top suspect straight away is scummy. Here you're making me out to be scummy for voting the obvscum straight away. I don't get it... what do you think the protown thing to do when posting right at the start of the day is?
It's quite possible the scumgroups have different power roles. I mean, we've seen a scum jailkeeper, and generally there isn't more than one of those in a game. I'm sure the mod will have tried to ensure that the scumgroups have basically equal amounts of role power, but that doesn't mean they have to have exactly the same roles.
I do agree with this. I don't like how he's acting like two scum groups is some massive revelation, and I don't like how he distanced from his predecessor.BoTS wrote:
Seriously? Are you really trying to look shocked to discover this information? It was pretty obvious and even if it was not obvious, we have discussed it ad nauseum. I'm not buying this especially in light of your previous post where you WIFOM why you are still alive and not being wagonned.Enigma wrote:Suppose this means that there are 2 scum teams? Hrmmmm...
No. Well, not unless it's absolutely impossible to get a wagon on Smarg or PeregrineV. Enigma's scummy, but there's no way I'm buying that we had three different players who lied about their role and all are town, when the vast majority of people who lie are scum (I'm pretty much despairing of any chance of getting Furc lynched anymore).Enigma wrote: The Fonz - you willing to help me lynch Enigma today?-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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Beasts of the Seaspecificallystated that they thought it unlikely a neighbor pair would have one scum in it, because then one scumteam would have a neighbor and the other one wouldn't. I'm trying to argue why it makes perfect sense for my #1 suspect to me scum, which isn't a red herring at all- it's not necessarily the case AT ALL that the scum would have the exact same power roles on both sides- after all, all mods try to ensure that scum have something they can claim safely. If the groups are symmetrical, then any scum PR who claimed their own role would be outed to the opposite scumgroup, and that's bad design.
That doesn't make any sense. Buddying whom? The Beasts? Why? How is telling someone you're not going to support their preferred wagon buddying? Or buddying Enigma? Saying 'Enigma is scummy, but I don't want to wagon him today' is not close to buddying either, unless your definition of buddying is 'ever saying you don't want to lynch a specific player.' I'm really wondering if anyone else in this game understands what buddying is.In relation to the quote about Enigma, and the bottom quote, you realize that considering all the mud you just slung here, it looks like you are buddying them?-
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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