Mafia MetaMafia ~ Game Over!

[Plum]

The second is that those domains listed in the post after the rules aren't all the domains- more can be added through certain casts as the game goes on, although I don't THINK there are would be any roles that only use a domain that hasn't been added yet.

Shiny

.

Welcome all, and thanks to our wonderful, well-meaning (yes, I like the letter W) mod Vi for running this great game in such an orderly fashion.

Also, goddamn Nikanor ninja-ing me before I could make my own original random vote.

Vote: MOI

Scum caught pre-game.
Faraday is his buddy.

Refresh my memory of the pregame. What interaction? Is this a serious vote?

Let's get things moving with some

obvious role-fishing that will get us lynched D1

theory speculation.

Who thinks alignments are related to allegiance? Will anyone admit to being a player whose alignment is [Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic] Evil, but whose allegiance is town?

1. Are you serious about Kats being serious? This was Mina speaking, and Mina has experience (and I think she experience with Kats, too, but wait for the check on that one). Mina taking this any sort of seriously is

not

within the ordinary realm of reactions for someone of Mina's caliber. She was active in the signup thread and presumably active enough during pre-game to have read the rules. Reacting like this betrays

something

, possibly something akin to skittishness, possibly not - but the

2. I don't buy this theory-speculation-gets-the-ball-rolling, and the little crossed-out joke seems geared to ward off the possibility of being attacked for it because lol. Lol no, I do not think so. Why do you refer to this as 'theory speculation' given that it's an open question about mechanics,

not

a speculation (unless you mean to imply the speculation that alignment Evil = scum)??? What sort of ball-rolling were you anticipating springing from this question?

VOTE: Nicki Minaj

Yes the open mechanics question/over allallegiance claim of any sort at this initial point is a bad idea and quite possibly a scummy one. I have good reason to believe that there are distinct scummy motivations for prompting people to alignment-claim for such a reason and can think of no Town benefit from a blanket ask-and-answer of this question at this time.

Stop interfering with my attempts to role-fish, Faraday.

Seriously, there is a reason I'm asking this question.

If you're Town, truly, let me assure you that

now

is not the time to ask this question.

I could make a flippant comment along the lines of "Is that why you haven't been checking our QT," but obviously the only answer I'm going to give to that question is "No, I'm not." What reason in particular?

This is not a straight 'No' sort of answer to 'are you scum'. That is scumpoints right there.

Seriously, there is a reason I'm asking this question.

I don't think anyone doubts there's a reason for it. We just doubt your allegiance, that's all.

Who's "we," out of curiosity?

You? You and Faraday? The town as a whole?

I thought it was just "bad vibes" you had. But by "doubt your allegiance," are you implying that my outright asking someone to claim being town evil is scummy? Null, but you don't like other aspects of my play? I'm really self-centred. I just have to know what you think about me.

Passive-aggressive defensiveness? Check. It's an attack on Seraphim's implicit attack/suspicions in the most backhanded way - an illegitimate attack on Seraphim's suspicions for use of scumhunting techniques which are very mainstream-Town.

Ooba, that's very shiny

but

. It's very good to hear this right now, and that makes me feel better about it, but for reasons that should be obvious we may (or may not, depending) need more information later in the Day re: whether to Worship for your chosen Domains or not.

@Seraphim: fair enough on the "insincere scumhunting" part, because to be honest, I only singled out Katsuki's comment because I didn't see anything else worth poking at. The post itself wasn't scummy, but maybe he'd have reacted defensively, or explained himself openly in a way that seemed townish, or started a wagon on us, or just said something that would have changed the tone of the thread. There's no such thing as a useless question on Page One of RVS, IMO.

Did you think Katsuki's comment was plausibly serious or not?

[Plum]

I dunno. I guess I'm probably just already stressed out from IRL stuff, but it was disorienting / confusing for me.

Ehhhhhhhh. I am underwhelmed by this back-off from the argument.

We can hold Mothrax's fate in the balance for a bit then. We lynch him first if he's scummy and we can be a little looser about how scummy he has to be to get lynched, but otherwise we hold our fire.

I am uninterested in getting into arguments about who everyone thinks would be the best choice for a policy lynch out of the playerlist. AGM's power could be scum or Town and I

do

dislike his defense to Hito's questions - too much 'with this power I

couldn't

be scum (because that's patently untrue but quite manipulative), too much 'in fact, you could be buddies with Mothrax.

Also: Your reason for voting Hito is a little . . . wonky? I'm down, sort of, with the 'he called Faraday Town for no good reason' thing (given that I can't check/refresh myself on the context I couldn't say myself whether it looked to be a Townish post for other reasons), but the assumption that he does believe Quadz is scum/should believe that is not a given and doesn't correlate. Hm.

@AGM

- If we lynch Mothrax first today, do we get a flip off of him as soon as he's lynched and go with the info to the second Day 1 lynch, or does he flip just before Night?

If AGM's policy-lynch picks aren't mine at all, neither are Hito's top three policy lynches. This tells me that

this sort of thing is highly subjective

. Which means that as far as I can see it's very unlikely we'll be able to reason out anything conclusive regarding AGM's alignment by arguing about who he should have picked (unless NS was actually horrid in the games he cited, I suppose).

Stupid school computer isn't interested in letting me acces Page 5 of the game but I've been messing around with the ISO function and at least got whatever Nicki M. responded to me thus far:

This is also to Plum, but are you saying you expected a serious answer to that question? I'm just curious, how do you think scum would react to that question, and how would town react?

If it makes you happy,

no

. I'm not scum. I feel ridiculous for even posting that.

Yes, I expected a serious answer. Town is more likely to answer quickly and definitively; scum is more likely to answer with a joke, with an attack on the question or the questioner, or to answer in longer or more equivocal ways. Scum are made to lie outright, and there

is

, in my own experience as well as reasonably strong heresay, psychological force acting which

does

influence reactions and answers such that an answer can be evaluated for scumminess. At this point your appeasement makes little difference to me, but yeah.

Picking back up on Page 6:

Plum has me paranoid with the big ol' wall post pointing out a how scummy Nicki is on page 3- It's page 3, and most of the points are pushed about as far as they can possibly be taken- it's like trying to make a case on someone and going through their whole iso to find every point instead of looking at the overall play to find out whether or not they're scum. And there's no mention of anyone else in the game except my domain thing being shiny.

Fair enough; Nicki posted quite a bit and caught my eye with much of her (their?) posting. Pushing the points as far as they could be taken didn't seem a bad option at the time (moreover, I was a little inspired by the scummer for whom I'm High Priestess, so that may have played in; take that for what you will). Most of the other interaction was not nearly as interesting to me as scumhunting material at the time.

The flavor is a passive ability called Trollspeak, this ability returns allegiance investigations as mafia and no result to all other investigations. We also can not be neighborized due to this passive ability.

Ninja? This is not just Miller, this is not being able to be accounted for by Watcher Tracker et al (and that besides the Neighborizer immunity). Hm. Not just a Miller claim indeed. Why didn't you mention the Ninjahood aspect of the power when you claimed Miller?

@DDD - what do you think is the optimal town strategy with the domains? Is there any advantage to mass claiming domains as someone (Seraphim?) suggested? Are we better randomly worshiping and casting? Same question goes to anyone that played in POWERFUL WIZARDS mafia...or whatever it's called.

If someone has a useful and falsifiable reason for domain and/or alignment claiming then I'd be in favor of it, but far too often you do something like that and people try to play outguess the mod isntead of scumhunting.

Goodposting.

I have a slight town read on Niki. I know Mina jumps all over the place as town and I'm not seeing scumMina asking about alignments like that. Plum's post on them makes me uneasy. I need to see that play out some more.

Gamma is town. Overly paranoid, but town. I can see where he is coming from and our info seems to match up.

Unvote, Vote: Plum

Yeah I like this vote

~Sotty

What changed between these two posts?

If no one played in Powerful Wizards mafia (did Plum? I thought she played all Spyrex games), then I guess I will have to look into it myself to see when and if domains were ever claimed in it.

Nope, sorry.

MoI - Fairly speaking I was making assumptions; that said, I don't think as mass alignment claim on either axis is a good choice at this point and Nicki's way of suggesting we do such a thing seemed shady for the reasons I discussed.

What response would you expect? There is one obvious answer to that question regardless of the player’s true Allegience – “No I’m not”

Unless you are anticipating a Lie Detector (which in a game like this is certainly possible) it’s at best a Null question with scum-hunting upside.

There is one obvious answer, and I'd consider "No I'm not" give or take null. As far as my personal experience and my education tells me, equivocal responses of any sort to this question are highly worth noting and much more likely Town than scum. Your theory stance on this may be different; I dunno. I do see a scum-hunting upside in that scum are more likely to react in certain ways than Townies are/if you get a certain type of response, it's more likely that the responder is scum than if he/she had given the enutral direct answer.

2) Tarhalindur. Being a Vi game, there's a Tarhalindur role out there, and I'm 99.9% that it will be significantly advantaged by having a massclaim of domains -- either because it has to eliminate everyone of a certain domain(s), or it wins if everyone alive has a certain domain(s), or something along those lines.

So instead of massclaiming domains, I would recommend that everyone name what domain they'd like worshipped. Which gives us nearly the same information for our purposes (what should I worship if I think X is town?), but hinders someone who needs to know what everyone's domains are.

1. Tarhalindur role has been all sorts of alignments as far as I can recall, even Town. There may or may not be a Domain-eating party/wincon of some sort, though, so point.

2. Your style domain claim is the one to go with.

I don't like either of Parama's posts.

I've only made one content post, so you starting out with this is a pretty good basis for me to discredit your posts.

You've never disliked someone's RVS vote-post?

I don't like someone who votes and then unvotes and then votes in the same post; has the feel of someone wanting to be careless and stream-of-consciousness without actually being either.

Your case on me: lol I voted twice in the same post
Uh okay.
That's not a case. I'll just put you on my "to-be-ignored-all-game" list now.

Wow this is

not

the Town-Parama I know and love. Telling the same guy twice in one post that you're going to ignore him? Strawmanning Magua's reason for voting you? What is this nonsense?!

Actually, no. I think there IS a problem with that beyond the stupidity of it.
7 pages into a game.
Your vote is "LOL THIS GUY VOTED TWICE IN ONE POST, SCUM SCUM SCUM"
And your only mention of quadz: "i don liek him"
what a blatant "fos: buddy vote: townie lolololol" post.
magua's desperately trying to avoid bussing at this stage in the game. but the only thing he can come up with to push is "uh double vote = scumtell i thik? lolz."
y'know what this means?
EVERYBODY under serious suspicion is very likely scum if Magua is scum, which he is.
there are too many of the scums.

In ten minutes you change from 'Magua's so lol that I'm going to ignore him' to 'MAGUA'S EVIL SCUM AND EVERYONE UNDER SUSPICION NOW IS PROBSCUM TOO!'. The only thing in between I'm seeing is . . . Magua finding your first post to fake-casual. Now it's 'I'll SHOW you I'm not fake casual! This isn't casual at all! This is serious scummy business!'. Or did you not see Magua's response before that post? I can't tell. But anyway.

No.

I don't care that VV has basically claimed scum. Magua basically just posted his role PM for us.

Um? No. Unconvinced of sincerity, too. Your Post #182 is all good and well, but if VV is so glaringly scummy, why vote Magua? For a mediocre attack on you (which I'm still surprised you're not at least seeing as quite plausibly sincere)? Because he didn't vote a different suspect of yours (in which case you'd probably better be voting Quadz)? I'm not seeing this from Town-Parama. Far, far from it.

Yet no vote in-sight for VV,

who has far more votes than Magua

.

Can't believe I didn't see that before, but yeah. THAT TOO.

Anyway Magua is probtown, etc. I'm not really feeling Mina's hito vote any more so I'm going to risk waking her dragon by voting for StretchyPlum.

Unvote. Vote: Plum.

Have you finished responding to me, or . . . ?

UNVOTE: Nicki

VOTE: Parama

Let's see.

[Plum]

What changed between these two posts?

Nothing, you're reading the first wrong, that or I worded it poorly.

I have a

slight town read on Niki.

I know Mina jumps all over the place as town and

I'm not seeing scumMina asking about alignments like that.

Plum's post on them makes me uneasy [about Plum]. I need to see that play out some more.

Your wall on Niki made me uneasy about you. Following it up with another huge wall isn't doing you any favors.

~Sotty

I understand 'big wall focusing entirely on attacks on someone I'm getting a townread off'. I don't understand 'all wallposts are bed'. There were about 7 pages between my two posts, and I had plenty I wanted to comment on. My question is where/why you switched from 'Plum is uneasy-making but not worth switching my vote' to 'Plum is worth my vote' (especially given that you said you needed to see it - I assume the me/Nicki Minaj interaction, and I assume you meant you needed to see more to judge whether your uneasiness with me was worth acting on).

btw Plum is probably scum as well.

O RLY

[Plum]

I'd love to see it, I'm sure.

[Plum]

It certainly says Parama-scum because the suspicions and Parama's reactions to his suspects does not match Parama-Town scumhunting. Independently I'd say VV's initial stances are lazy-scummy enough for my taste, but I can't fully access the context, so that may change when I have full access. It's reasonably possible that Parama's vote on Magua over VV given what Parama has said is related to wanting to be seen as attacking VV, but I'd actually be inclined to think he'd bus hard in this sort of situation instead. It seems much more related to excusing/trying to fit with/strengthening his mutated stance on Magua, which reinforces my impression that it's scummy of Parama. VV connections are tantalizing but inconclusive (I tend to think such things on Day 1 are best treated, generally, as inconclusive until we get a flip down; I don't like searching for connections Day 1 much because confirmation bias, need twice as much luck as skill, &c.).

Oooh, correction: "equivocal responses of any sort to this question are highly worth noting and much more likely

scum than Town

". Wrote it the wrong way around but you get the idea.

yo Plum, I really think you're not reading into things enough.

Sorry, I was fairly sure I was reading into things pretty well. What do you think I'm missing?

[Plum]

Wanting to see my reaction is perfectly reasonable. I'd wanted to see if the pieces lined up or not and they seem to do so reasonably well.

Regarding wallposting, if mine was a misinterpretation it was based on this:

Following it up with another huge wall isn't doing you any favors.

I didn't know how else to take it but that you found the very fact that i wallposted at least mildly scummy.

Regarding why I made that case, I've explained as best I could. I would like to make sure you've read the case I made on Parama and evaluate it for sincerity beyond whether or not he's an easy target.

[Plum]

OMG, Equinox+quadz duo? Blatant buddying ftw! Oh wait, I forgot those aren't legitimate scum tells anymore. Or are they?

vote: Equinox

Oh Plum, I love it when you're probstown.

Show me the first.

Also while you're at it, remind me when I've been probstown in a game with you, that you should recognize it and love it? I can only seem to find MoCo and Might of Mordor. And in both I was scum and in one I didn't even post in the thread. And in the one where I did post in the thread you didn't even have a real scumread on me for most of my life . . . so.

OMG AGM WHEN YOU HAVE A POLICY LYNCH USE IT ON NOBODY SPECIAL. ALL. THE. TIME.
(but seriously...WUT...you're gunna have to explain that one)

Um . . . he has? If you don't like his explanations to this point, what are you looking for?

I have a paper due tomorrow so I don't have time to post tonight, but for those who asked: my ability does NOT cause the battery to reset - the day just keeps going with the current battery.

But we get a Mothrax flip before we continue yes or no?

Oh, and

unvote

I'm probably gunna end up going back to my policy on NS.

You seriously think that's the best you'll be able to do?

I don't think I'm reading that block of text in Plum's post

Which post/block of text? About you, or a different one?

NS' post is Nothing Special. Says very little about anything, next to no concrete stances and stances he comes back at with things that make little sense in response.

[Plum]

Singer: Fine. So why am I probstown?

Third point: the point I've read up to, yeah. I could lynch quadz, too. But I'm actually not sure on AGM's policy lynch thing...how does he/Vi define it as a policy lynch (that's more of the explanation I was looking for--right now I'm just scrambling to catch up on the game while getting my thoughts out there)?

Yeah, didn't you imply a strongish scumread on Quadz and/or Equinox (such that you were anticipating Quadz not unlikely creating ties to his buddies if left to continue posting)?

Regarding AGM's policy-lynch ability, reread the ability claim.

I can still make neither heads nor tails of this:

OMG, Equinox+quadz duo? Blatant buddying ftw! Oh wait, I forgot those aren't legitimate scum tells anymore. Or are they?

vote: Equinox

Nor can I fathom why you flashily doubled back on your logic for it, whatever it is, twice, and with great psudeo-playful glee.

[Plum]

But we get a Mothrax flip before we continue yes or no?

Yeah, we get the flip. The lynch is just like a normal lynch, except the day doesn't end.

(If I post on this site again tonight lynch me.)

Thanks for clarifying.

Faraday, how often have you played with Parama (and for that matter, I guess, who's played with Parama in Large games; I can't remember doing so, so).

[Plum]

Maybe twice? But I read a bunch of his games for judging the scummies, it's more of a 'town tell' in general than a parama tell, I'm not saying it's specific to him, town are more likely to get actually angry in general and I think it's hard to fake.

Fair enough. Frankly the read I get off it is FAKE though. Capital letters the way through.

Re: Playersize: I usually expect Town-Parama to take a different role in the Day game than he's taken here thus far. Many factors might account for that, including but far from limited to allegiance.

VPB - I say if Mothrax starts seriously lurking we lynch him for all we're worth. At this rate we have a fair amount of Battery-time ahead of us.

[Plum]

I have some stuff from Day 1 when I was reskimming Saturday night, most of which is still relevant.

Spoiler: A few things from Day 1 not colored by Day 2

It's important to make the distinction between always returning

a negative result, and getting no result.

Frankly I'm surprised that you failed to make that distinction, and I don't like it...

Now to clarify. Watcher/tracker results targeting us will yield no result. Any other investigative powers that are designed to investigate anything but our allegiance will get no result. We are effectively untrackable, and unwatchable. Here's the other side of the coin though. Actions can be tracked to us, and actions we hypothetically target others with can also be watched.

So no, not a Ninja.

Ninja means unTrackable and unWatchable - that is, return no result/didn't go anywhere/visit anybody - in my book. Thanks for clarifying. Power is nice and scummeh, though, but not conclusive in any way. I see DDD later leans town on Sottyrulez because he thinks the power is too strong for scum to have - the heck? It's a very useful scum power, sure, but with a game where insane amounts of action and power have the possibility of going down Ninja is a very viable scumpower. Ninja is, heck, basically a role made to help scum out when there are lots of action-detection powers going around. The doubt comes out of whether a scumbag would be bold enough to claim Ninjahood given its reputation or not. And given that it absolves Sottyrulez from accountability regarding any actions he's charged by the Town to make, if that ever happens . . . yeah. Furthermore - I

did

make the distinction between negative result/no result, just to clarify. It's possible I was using a different terminology than you expected, I suppose, but as far as I know it's pretty standard.

Parama is crossed out due to Magua's vig shot. He's here with an asterisk because I hate the stuff he's posted and his reaction to Magua's action, but the people saying he's somehow meeting town meta are confounding me, so he's on my to-meta list. Obviously, I'm waiting until after Vi posts before doing so; there are other people in line, and I've already blown about 6 hours here and need a break.

Guess what sort of analysis is coming back into vogue? I CAN SMELL IT (well, no, not really; I can't tell that Equi was a Mafia or an anti-Town-aligned shot anyway but this

should

be noted).

DDD is reading scummy to me. His 8 posts contain basically no content. This is in particular is bad.

If someone has a useful and falsifiable reason for domain and/or alignment claiming then I'd be in favor of it, but far too often you do something like that and

people try to play outguess the mod isntead of scumhunting.

Even playing outguess the mod is better than nothing, which is what you've done. You've given NS town-cred, said you're leaning town on SR, and voted for me in your first post, with no reasoning attached to it.

Also, in ISO 6, you say "HAI GUYZ I AM TOWN TRUST ME" even though you've done literally nothing.

Lot of very likely town players at this stage, I think.

You have 12+ townreads? Care to list them for me, in one easily ISO-able place like your next post?

And you can't just list me 12 times either.

Sits under the radar, then calls himself obvtown? Yeah, no thanks.

WOW that is super fake on DDD's part. Hoo boy.

Plum I feel is just misguided, probably not scum.

Funny that you're not trying to do anything in the way of educating me, because I'm pretty sure you're scum.

DAAAAAMN Mothrax's post on the top of Page 25 is super-Town.

Regarding

today

/questions I didn't discuss above: I super cannot say that I just want to get a few more votes on Quadz today. I do not think that is the plan and am fairly dismayed that it seems to be on the agenda. If there's any good news it's that my top scumpicks may well be properly connected to Quadz, but.

RayFrost

- Where's your Parama-Town read coming from? Because I sure as hell don't see it.

Oh look, Magua's pulling a lame fakevig gambit. And he's still scum. W/e.

And you're still . . . not doing a blessed thing. Seriously Parama not pushing various things such that he's getting actual results in terms of reactions, wagons, content generated, whatnot does not compute as Town. This push on Magua, whom most players have a strong Townread on and no one else I can see has a problem with in the slightest is generating nothing, and Parama is not working with that situation as I'd expect him to as Town (by driving harder and pushing more convincingly for it, by pressuring and attacking other players as well &c.).

My lonely vote is a vote on scum :/
It's lonely but also confident.

"...but I don't really care if anyone else joins me"

Yeah. Two itty bitty posts Parama has made noting with a little emoticon the fact that he's voting alone . . . yeah. No.

If parama flips scum, hito should be lynched next probs.

Remind me what your read on Parama was around the time of this post? Thanks.

Well see, Sotty explained why she disliked the wall, and then it was oh, you did it again, so it's grating on me even more now.

Which is the way I'm seeing it vs you not liking the phrase "isn't doing you any favors."

-Zach

If it's 'grating' as opposed to scummy I get it. If it's 'dislike it in a scummy way' I don't. Clarify?

More Parama not doing anything but reiterating the fact of his read - not supplementing it, not pushing it, not doing anything else but poking vaguely in the direction of Magua's claimed daykill and saying, fake, but he's scuuuuuuuuum.

And for the record, while NobodySpecial is alwaysscum, there is ONE meta-tell on him that I have a decent degree of confidence in, and at least so far he's clean, so hey.

Oh, God,

the pressure.

(Hint: I'm town. And actually, you know,

trying

.)

Yes, you're Town, and people should respect that and move on.

I don't trust SottyR completely because of the miller claim. I'm not saying it's null...I'm saying it's something that people should always keep in mind unless some other info comes up that exonerates them or I get a super strong townread on them. I think that's reasonable, apparently we disagree though.

What exactly is gained from stating you won't be sure he's town until he gets nk'ed? Reduction in the likelyhood he gets nked? That's about all I can see.

This.

I don't like NM's vote on Plum. I said I'd clarify this, so...the first (or one of the first) post she made had effort. The one game I HAVE played with her, her scum game was very weak and not willing to generate her own content past defenses. I must admit, I'm not that familiar with her play, but I also feel as though she got very aggressive after I labeled her as town, as that was the same thing Fate did to her in Mordor, which actually makes me feel like my read is more accurate.

This isn't an answer to why you called me Town. At all.

I will be properly rereading Quadz himself tonight; some things he's said have been off or wrong and possibly scummy - but his case on DDD seems highly sincere to me on its own, at least.

Top scum: Parama, Singer, maybe sottyrulez; I haven't gotten up to writing about Kats/Demonic Angel but the vibes have been bad, so she's coming up in the proper reread section, too.

VOTE: Parama

[Plum]

baw more Plum.

How all large themes go:
people drown the thread with text that nobody cares about and I find the scum but people don't listen to me.

why do I even sign up for these games.

I might be more inclined to give you leniency if, as is usual for you, your case looked sincere and promising. Not only is it neither, and not only have you basically floated around not caring about the response for a good long while, you show no sign of analyzing the thread and analyzing reactions for reasons why your reads - on Magua and others - might evolve. That's not just 'people don't listen to me' - it's that

and

'I don't care to have people listen to me' (which even if you're frustrated by the Large Themeness is excessive and unlike you here)

and

'I don't care to listen to what's going on and provide ongoing contribution from there.

Also - why do you think I'm misguided and probably not scum? Also, this point of yours on RF - cite and explain please, because I haven't been seeing that.

Faraday, why am I scum; Gamma, I assume you're still bothered by the initial post of mine &c.?

Sottyrulez -

did

you ever evaluate my Parama case for sincerity beyond your impression that my target was too 'easy'?

[Plum]

Right, my post last night got eaten by the Ninja-filter and getting kicked off the computer &c. Whatever.

POINTS:

Quadz's claim is scumtastic beyond not protecting Nicki Minaj and being Evil-aligned (the first of which is hugely scummy and the second of which is merely suggestive but carries at least a bit of weight given what we know). The expense-spread is wildly indicative of a scumbag would have to pay for ability uses as opposed to aTownie: Hide being the most expensive of Quadz's Casts matches Hide being basically Commute for a scumbag if played with half a brain, which can be extremely powerful and critical. Vig only working on Good players is suggestive as well (hell, we don't even know that the scum have inherent allegiance-based kill actions available; and compare Quadz's ability to kill the person on average last on the wagons costing as much as a conditional but straight Vigkill: WHAT?) - and beyond that there's another point on the expense-spread that looks

damning

- I don't want to go into details here and now, but yeah. Doesn't look good either. In short, Quadz's claim is a scum one and those defending him on basis that a Townie might make the stupid/unconventional play of opting for the Neighborizer or whatever are certainly not considering things very critically and BAD.

UNVOTE:

Faraday: why did you respond to Parama, but not Plum?

B/c he's town and she's scum. Duh.

Man, look, we're none of us always right, and you have the right to have a scumread on me. But if you won't talk to me and won't respond to me when I ask you questions there's no way for our interaction to produce the results you generally try to get out of the Day phase.

Other things: VPB slip is scummy and you'll excuse me but VV did the same thing in a game that just ended with me on his scumteam. Damage control was attempted. But the manner in which it happened - discussing a strong read on someone because it wouldn't make sense otherwise given scum Daytalk - is a mirror image of what happened. So yeah: THAT THING.

Magua's right on the money re: Quadz. Scum probably have one or two abilities they saved up to use N1, and then a killer. Scum quadz being one of these abilities, to neighborize someone who is probably the singular best person at reading him? yeahno.

Discounting possibility of inherent Neighborizer scum-Quadz, discounting possibility of Quadz herp-derp randomly getting enough Faith (three or if he's fakeclaiming maybe even less) to do a little something and picking that/having that be the only viable choice or nothing (well no, wait, it's actually more like what Gamma's been suggesting given the no Worship N0/Cast N1 thing but point is the possibilities are there and viable and rrrrrgh)? What is this? Hito. Nonono. And here I was wondering why the hell people had scumreads on you.

Oh @ Hito- Parama has been at least partially intentionally scummy. Although doing it to the extent he has is irritating, it's not nearly as scummy as someone who's been trying to look town and failed miserably.

What is this I don't - ah hell. If I actually am getting things right with Hito you may be right, but Parama acting this way on purpose doesn't seem like it's been done with a Town purpose behind it. Dammit,

things

.

Also, question for hito: why are you so willing to believe quadz's claim and immediately declare him as town, when you immediately declared AGM scum upon claim of a power which you equated with neighborizor:

76

Yes, this.

Doublepost: Scum almost certainly have daytalk because the neighbors have daytalk, and VPB's #681 is almost certainly a scumslip.

So I say scum probably have daytalk, which was pointed out in the rules, and you say I'm scum because I said that. This is probably the first dumb thing I've ever heard you say Magua. Congrats.

Come on, even I didn't screw this up; you said scum have Daytalk before Singer confirmed (give or take) that Neighborized have daytalk. The second is strong circumstantial evidence towards something we didn't know before - except, or so it seems, you.

Parama, I'd read a RayFrost case of yours (admittedly partly because I'm already focusing on you, but).

I actually would've aimed at Minaj (naive on chaotic strongly implies a lawful cop) as scumquadz but regardless.

Sorry that makes no sense. A Lawful character would make more sense being Paranoid about Chaotics. If anything I'd say it makes NM more likely to be Chaotic Good.

True this (Vi might fancy herself [himself?] Neutral Neutral, but there you are).

The point is hypo-visit someone and if that someone is being watched we will be seen. AKA we aren't a ninja no matter how you try to twist it.

You're right, I did screw that up. So you're detectable by Watch but not by Track. Hmm, that's fair enough. Sorry for my repeated thickness of the skull.

I just cannot work in the "Inexplicably Mutated" bit into this theory .. "Shot" seems more traditional but why would a vig kill Nikki Minaj?

Killflavors (especially if my guess is right and scum generally depend on Casts for kills) may be more varied than in some of the previous Vi game and/or may be correlating with specific Casts rather than specific Allegiances.

Fate if you're going to put me down at the bottom of your scumlist you need to man up and mention me in your frakking post. No, really. Various and sundry people are occasionally randomly calling me scum in this game. The more random it seems, and the more sheepy it seems, the less I think of it as not playing at the very top of my game and the more I see someone liking to rag on me because it will be useful later in the game.

Right, I have more stuff from last night I lost and want to reconstruct, but: How ready are we for a hammer?

[Plum]

Mrf.

A toast to the lot of us, then.

[Plum]

Yeah, well, I've been trying to post basically that since last night and again this afternoon (this game is especially wonky on my school computers' filter). Funny that I can't tell whether you're being serious or sarcastic in that last post.

[Plum]

VOTE: VP Baltar

That slip still reads like a slip. Plus inquiries detailed below make him not a bad choice based on what flipped scum have said regarding other players in this game. More rereading to come/cordial discussions with the lot of you who think I'm scum or whatnot.

Parama, if you cant to confirm/deny messing with my mind.

Hmmm.

With Hito's flip, Magua interactions seem like scum buddying on obv-Town with the setup talk, makes me feel less good about the Parama thing even though early Parama behavior (and interactions with Quadz) looked damn bad, hmm

unvote, vote: Parama

Stretching crappy reasoning too far. ("Basicially just posted his role PM for us?") Also keenly aware that if Magua is lynched and I'm nk'd town is down on most of it's setup speculators in a fairly complex setup.

Timing and tone seems much more promoting-the-counterwagon-on-Town than bussing-the-other-buddy.

singersinger and VV are looking bad but not Parama-bad.

Parama is, as above, prob-Town and moreso with this quote, I'm inclined to put Faraday and NS from the Townreads down as Town and put VV as Town as well because he was pitted against actual-scum Singer. Plus Singer kept seriously angling for a policy lynch of NS early over scumread of Quadz; NS looks more Town (actually Hito also gave his initial vote to NS for policy reasons but I don't recall him pursuing it seriously).

Yeah, Hito staying away from Quadz was all riding the coattails of Magua's reasoning - reads like he wanted to buddy/use the similarity of their thoughts on other things to excuse his stance on Quadz and/or shift responsibility to Magua.

Killflavors point to my theory about kills being Casts/not purely straight inherent Factional being likely.

some townies: Gamma, Faraday, DDD, quadz, Magua, ooba (unless the Faith totals say otherwise)
some maybetownies: MoI, NS, plum, agm, ray

some scums: parama, VPB
some maybescums: sottyrulez, vv

Of the people Hito lists as scummish or scum, VPB seems most likely - Hito barely said anything about him until late about him, doesn't have the benefit of being paired with scum-Singer as above, and all the arguments Hito got into regarding me myself with Sotty come back feeling much more awful.

Regarding Singer's traces: No. Damn. Sorry, I'm getting a bad case of confirmation bias.

- We don't know whether scum ability to Cast/Worship fluctuates or anything based on how many members are alive. It's possible that they can actually Worship more or whatever - in which case they'd still have reduced choices and ability to coordinate. In general I'm going to guess that scum are not currently in a position where their coordination advantage-taking is going to outpace ours in general for a number of reasons.

[Plum]

For what this is worth, given that my school computer has allowed me access to the past few pages mostly in the form of ISO power and translating back and forth from Chinese in Babelfish, I'm going to get done what I can - laying out the case for VPB having scumslipped about Daytalk. While it is not conclusive it initially struck me as exactly like a scumslip in a recently ended game. So.

Guuysss guyss, Andy is Town. I srsly doubt Andyscum would make a mistake like that.

Especially with daytalk

. I find Andyscum to be meticulous. Quorrath gets a big FoS for his vote.

In this game the provided Role PMs seemed to imply that the scum only had Nighttalk (as scum with Daytalk it wasn't immediately obvious, without a full read of the flavor-heavy PMs, that the Mod was unintentionally ambiguous or misleading at best, and it was not unnatural to simply assume that because we had Daytalk it was written outright in the sample Role PMs and that therefore it would be information easily and naturally available to a Townie. It wasn't, and VV got burned).

@Ray - It makes no sense for you to have not found the thread for so long if you were scum because your role PM would have had a scum daytalk QT link and your buddies would have told you to post before you did.

In this game the Mod stated outright that the scum might or might not have Daytalk but she (he?) wouldn't be saying.

Both VV there and VPB here took the existence of Daytalk (which would be obvious to a scum member and without close reading might not be clear to be information the Town wouldn't have access to) as a given, and further used that given to base a Townread on someone - eh, scum have Daytalk, they wouldn't do X with Daytalk, so this dude who did X is Town.

Preview Edit: Farside especially I would really appreciate a willingness to interact with me (I sort of know where Sotty's coming from and want to discuss that too but yeah). Seriously man. Sotty, I'd be checking the DA slip against this right now but DA's ISO isn't working for me. Fate weights the phrase limit like nothing else, it seems - but as far as I can see without the full context I'm unimpressed. I've seen so-called scumslips where the guy does worse than possibly implying he knows a guy is Town here; they've said things that imply they're scum in the game itself. And it's been Town mistakes. VPB's sort of slip is one which not only references a piece of information scum only would have at the point it was made but uses is directly and concretely in making reads (as opposed to making meta references, which I think is what DA was doing at the time, yeah?). In any case, as far as I can see whatever DA did and VPB's apparent slip are very different beasts and VPB's deserves extreme consideration.

[Plum]

I meant Faraday. Dammit.

VPB - I did some decent work Parama-hunting but it looks less probable given the new flips (especiaklly Hito's). I did some Singer-hunting, and that did pan out give-or-take; I hunted Quadz mostly by the scumminess of his claim. Having such a slip from you, I was prompted to look through our flipped Tigers and see how probable certain potential buddies were. For the reasons I discussed last night, yiou seemed both a reasonable likely buddy based on name mentions and interactions by the flipped scum and reasonably likely scum on your own given the slip from yesterday. As I described above, I believe it does carry quite a lot of weight and even if it's not fancy scumhunting I certainly think it's

good

scumhunting. I think on its own it's a very decent reason to believe you're fairly likely scum and a very good lynch; I have seen most of MoI's attacks on you today but not in context and will say for now only that they look decent and supportive of the chances of VPB-scum without full context.

But yeah, the slip? Because I saw basically the exact same thing happen to scum, point for point, and can follow the mistakes in it which indicate scum-mistake and scum-behavior in both VV's slip from Open 298 and your slip in this game, yeah. I do think that in conjunction with strong circumstantial evidence from the flipped scums' words that you very well may be scum this is a very strong piece of scumhunting. And hell, you're going to argue that your own case on me is much shinier? That any of your cases so far were bastions of what looked like best scumhunting?

PREVIEW EDIT: Yeah, Sotty, I agree true scumslips are fairly rare - but because VPB's mirrors exactly the scum mindset and behavior of scum-VV, being that it's something I see and can show concretely that scum have screwed up over [io]because they're scum[/i] I feel it's worth looking at.

[Plum]

MoI looks like super, super scum in his fight with VP. I see no reason that VP is scum at this juncture...SK, possibly, but not scum. All the players jumping on him looks really suspect. Keeping my vote on Plum for the moment, however.

Sure. Why? (Pardon me for your ISO function malfunctioning where I'm at if necessary)

[Plum]

UNVOTE:

Right. VPB's abilities lean SK over Town to me (a Faithpower-self ability plus super number of kills with super power? Soloism is circumstantial but I'll note it as possibly something). If that's the case, though, we can deal with letting him live a Day and maybe even with Worshiping for him to some degree, because if he is an SK he's now accountable for all his kills, which will basically have to target people he thinks are likely scum - and given the long reasonably-Town/probTown list we have and is basically agreed on by most of the players in this game it probably can be dealt with, and if he is SK and he's monitored properly he won't make it to endgame, so.

If anyone calling me scum would bother talking about his or her analysis of me I would appreciate it immensely.

Let's lynch MoI today and Demonic Angel tomorrow.

Vote: MoI

Why not me?

Actually, here's a relevant thought experiment: Y'all think scum kills count as casts?

I think it's quite likely that to kill scum need to Cast given Quadz's claim and killflavors.

Given my suspicions of VPB-SK I would prefer not to put all our eggs in one basket aside from the normal reasons not to. I'm happy to join either group with a plan. Psychologically I'd prefer to power Ooba up but the key is the plan, so.

Actually, Parama, looking at RayFrost he has connections to

Singer

.

Scum that should be lynched even if someone claims daycop with an innocent on them: D[ark]A[rts], VV, AGM

People that are scum but not nearly as clearly obvious ubar scum as the above: singer, nicki minaj

Puts her as semi-scum but not real super scum. Given Nicki Minaj has already flipped Town.

The thing I really dislike about Singer is the issue she made about the Mothrax PM which arguably lead to the modkill. I can't help but think that was deliberate.

Vote: Quadz

He's scum too.

Erm. What?

Singer didn't make a big deal: AGM, demonic angels, and myself, IIRC, were the main people discussing it at the time the mod team came to a decision. Singer at most paid lip service to the topic, while AGM and DA were pushing heavily on it having an impact on the game.

I fail to see why you don't find them suspect and choose to instead single out SS.

Softdefend Singer when she was far from a viable lynch (plus when they were planning to pull the Neighborizer gambit???).

In the case that he flips scum, I will post an image of someone eating a hat.

Didn't post this. A Townie might suck up the fact that he was wrong about Quadz and eat his crow and get on with it; this smacks of confidence, possibly faked - and a strong desire not to go back to how wrong he was about Quadz or even touch the Quadzlynch

at all

.

Well, I have a bias that makes me want plum to stay alive. One I don't want to delve into.

Spill. Hell, it looks like many players want me lynched today anyway. And I don't see much attempted scumhunting out of you today. If there's enough pressure on me to take me down I'm more than happy to take you down with.

VOTE: RayFrost

If anyone's interested I'll try to pull together why I'm not scum. Or unlikely scum with the flipped scum.

[Plum]

Plum’s attempt to paint VPB as a SK instead of town is hysterical to me though it did at least let me think about the ability from multiple perspectives. I guess there could be unnamed limitations to the ability but to give a SK the ability to basically cut the day down to nothing and at a minimum in half multiple times would just destroy the town in comical fashion. This game is going to be so much easier now that I actually feel comfortable riding VPB’s coattails.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Look at it this way: An SK has to have options for Casts that kill Town. An SK has no scumteam to back him up with Worships, so he has to coordinate some on his own just to get a Cast through, which is difficult. Therefore mega-Vig abilities plus an ability to increase one's own Faith bypassing the normal have-to-accumulate-support-from-somewhere-in-order-to-get-much-of-anything-done are very much in line with a reasonable Vi-minded solution to putting an SK in a game where scum need to accumulate Faith. Furthermore he has

another

ability which artificially accumulated Worship support directly to himself:

3 Faith - Project Rampage - I can target up to five players and if they're not Good (whatever that means) and they choose to worship, they worship me. Now the thing that is weird about this is that it says they worship me, not one of my domains. I'm not sure how this affects me...perhaps it gives me a permanent faith boost or something. idk.

Lastly we

don't

know what his limitations are for the Battery-drain-accumulate-Faith thing. But I do think back to the Holy Orders games, where the scum could manipulate the Battery to get extra Faith. You also misread - he can decrease the Battery a

maximum

of %50 - and as Vi promotes quick Days as pro-Town it's not unreasonable for that to be a multi-use ability even for an SK.

Also VP is TOTALLY Tahlridaniur with his ABR fake-claim. Beautiful Vi, beautiful. Keep this in mind because AGMDERP and otehrs have said, I'm probably not going to make it till end game.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THIS GAME I CAN SAY HONESTLY HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU YOU BRILLIANT FOOL <3

Right. VPB's abilities lean SK over Town to me

Sure thing darlin'. I was scum for my QT knowledge, now I'm SK cause I just made you look pretty stupid for your weak wagon attempt on me. You scums have too much pride to go slinking away now. Get your buddy MoI over here to back you on this line of malarky. I'll just shoot you both in the face anyhow.

Uh, no. You're scum for your claim. Just plain Vig who shot Hito would've been normal and I'd believe it came from Town - but while you're almost certainly not TIGER scum and I was wrong, however good I felt my case was, it is unrelated entirely to my old case and your put-downs make no difference to me on that count. I don't think I did look stupid for my previous case and vote on you, I don't think it was weak, and I have no interest in voting anyone for making me look stupid because that's a part of this game. Your powers are SK powers completely. We don't have confirmation on the limits of your Battery-drain powers, your power-combinations make sense for an SK, and your argument that your powers are unbalanced for SK are completely without the hard data we'd need to say that. It's an assumption we'd have to make about the setup and about how much truth you've told about your powers. Variations of the powers you've claimed could be very reasonably balanced for an SK in this game. If you plan to shoot me it doesn't look likely that I'll be able to stop you. But no. I'm sure as hell not slinking away from someone I suspect of being the SK. Anyway. Why'd you Worship one of your own Domains N0?

VOTE: VP Baltar

If there's nothing to be done about the Magna lynch - I am very much disinclined to think Magna would attempt to fake that in this situation - I

insist

VPB answer this question before any hammers. I confirm Worshiping Justice/Balance tonight.

[Plum]

Nope, no Soloism here.

[Plum]

Why?

[Plum]

Because I'm pretty damn sure he's the SK, he's confident, and people are interested in boosting him heavily tonight. I'm quite a bit less sure that RayFrost is scum than that VPB is SK. And hell, if it gets people to take notice of my analysis of his claim even after I'm dead so that you are less likely to go along with whatever plan he devises, it's worth focusing on him.

[Plum]

VPB: Yeah. And when I think I've found scum, and when I'm ticked, I vote.

But please, answer my question. Humor the girl you're probably planning on shooting tonight.

Magua: He has another ability which nets him Faith which he claimed. The wording suggests this might be a

permanent

Faith-boost; even if it's not, it's up to an extra five Faith the next Night. The Battery thing might be limited by various factors; it might be usable only a limited number of times or for a limited total Battery drain/Faith gain, with up to %50 maximum at a time. He may have a factional kill and get extra kills when he gets enough power.

But if you're to believe the basics of what he claims he has: That he can drain the Battery to get Faith for himself, that he can convert Worship power onto himself from where it was directed, that he has can make himself untargetable for a Night with a Cast, that he has Casts which give him kills aside from any possible factional kills - it's

exactly

what an SK needs in this game and completely in line with what Vi would do to power up an SK in this game. VPB is unlikely to be dead tomorrow if scum are afraid he's been made into a PGO. So yeah.

We worshiped our own domains on N0 and N1. We didn't even realize until recent discussions that it was even possible to worship outside of your own domain. (Which is something we are now willing to do now that it's being proposed... I guess.)

I wasn't asking you. I was asking Baltar and I still am.

[Plum]

@Seraphim - can you make sure your PGO ability would be active on me the same night you grant it. Want to make sure.

VP sets up a reason for his being alive tomorrow.

Magna is a tiger, VP is SK.

Ah no, the point is for me to live so I can shoot the following night. AFter that I don't give a shit if I die. It's critical I live through tonight though.

Unvote, Vote: Plum

More confident that she's scum than MoI now.

You do that. Now please answer the damn question: why Worship one of your own Domains Night 0?

[Plum]

VPB: Yeah. Except if you Worshipped Night 0 you

couldn't

Cast Night 1. The Faith you put into your own Domain through Worshipping wouldn't benefit you at all. And the general Town assumption would be that if a Townie has known Domains, it's slightly less likely that the Domain would be shared with a greater Townie:scum ratio for use Night 1 as opposed to Worshipping any other Domain.

You may only Cast N1 if you do not Worship N0.

Something doesn't line up here, bro.

[Plum]

meh, so I messed up with my N0 action. Regardless, I still killed scum and I'm still town. If another person vigged hito, I'm sure they would have countered me, yeah?

I'm not doubting your Hito kill. I never did. I think you as SK killed Hito and I've made that pretty clear. But if you planned to Worship yourself and Cast Night 1 (and you of all people I doubt wouldn't notice the bit the Mod put in bright red letters regarding Night Actions) you'd have noted that in your claimed actions and described that you went with a plan B Night 1.

Sotty - if that's the way you want to look at it, fine. But the risk of powering VPB-SK is too great. Furthermore VPB should not be made into a PGO with Casts or whatnot as the plan went (protect Ooba instead!). If you want to try to lynch scum and leave VPB for later at least

don't boost VPB for extra kills

. He's going to take advantage of it to kill anyone he can get away with. Given our relative amount of power compared to the number and power of scum left given their decimation over the last Day/Night cycle, though, letting VPB kill as many players as he can - and because he is SK he will be aiming for the players he actually thinks are Town of the viable Vig-kills, or claiming Redirect, or hell, getting Redirected (all distinct possibilities and moreso because he's SK) - is getting rid of Town power and Worship-juice quickly when it's more viable to put through the lynches as Normal and gain the benefit of the mechanics to confirm and solidify the Town's position. With only the Mafia kill to deal with in all likelihood (unless we screw up and mass-worship scum) and no SK to deal with, that's viable. With an SK given the freedom to kill as he pleases it isn't. Because the Mafia are weakened, cutting off chunks of Townies, even the ones who might be under lynch pressure anyway, is

not

the better option.

If you're SK you won't be shooting scum. You'll be gunning for Town. Hell, you've done a fai amount of trying to make me look like lolflailscum where I'm not. So please, don't patronize me by asking me to trust you to shoot scum and die as SK. I don't trust you to do either if you can avoid it.

[Plum]

you are lolflailscum and have been all game? Your play here is basically identical to your scum play in Mafia Holographica. The idea of VPB will kill anyone he can get away with is dumb. Even if I managed to gain my triple vig tonight (which I wouldn't and suggested I only take the double to out more scumz), I'd never have the numbers to win. How are you incapable of understanding that?

I don't trust you. As SK you will kill whomever you can get away with killing however you can. You may well be able to manipulate the numbers better than most players can expect at this point, you may have powers which will help keep you alive when PoE finally comes around, you may claim you were Redirected, you may kill enough Townies that Town has to worry about TIGERs again. Are all of these true? Probably not. It's not paranoia not to trust a liar who is extremely likely to be the SK even if you can't predict which tactics he will use. The argument that I ought to trust you because if you were scum no one would trust you long enough to allow you to win is not the sort I will stand for or buy into.

My play this game resembles Holographica? Refresh my memory because I'm not seeing it.

As for redirects and being redirected. Is that really a possibility that you want to sell us on as a legitimate theory with no evidence that redirection exists thus far? Claims like this only make us like our vote on you more.

The fears, I am not buying into them.

I am giving an example of one of the many ways VPB-SK may try to excuse the number of Townies he hits and the players he chooses to shoot. I am merely warning everyone who doesn't believe he's SK - like you - to be aware that he is liable to use various tactics to try to stay Town in your eyes as he makes kills that benefit him, not the Town (and that will be Towndeaths, not scumdeaths, and the less viable lynch is a better kill for him).

The idea of a botched claim is stupid. I claimed what I did. Turns out I messed up...it's not unheard of, nor would it have mattered for my abilities anyhow. Re: 1v1 - I've told you why I disagree on that. Finally, my point was that I do think you're getting confused because you don't like how I play. I understand I can be a bit rough around the edges when I'm trying to get people to wise up and make smart choices, but being aggressive and trying to win =/= scum traits necessarily.

But you didn't mention it. When asked, you completely didn't realize that Worshipping your own Domain Night 1 was a mistake, which you wold have if you honestly as Town made that mistake. I'm not voting you for the mistake in actions. Your claimed actions and the way you made your claims and responded to my question don't line up at all. That's a damn good reason to call you scum. SK in this case. The fact that I know your kills will benefit you and scum more than Town at this point makes me want you dead and definitely not boosted with Worships. It also makes me not trust to the notion that you don't have a viable win left in you as SK. Whatever you do will be harming us, given the number of dead TIGERs. It will be to our detriment and hurt our wincon.

Also, I would have a fake claim better than Solism. derp. Trust the people who have played Vi games before.

WTH is this WIFOM.

[Plum]

Plum, what exactly would be my motivation for killing townies over tigers at this point? That's what you completely fail to address in your fearmongering wall posts. You can repeat yourself all you like, it doesn't make sense.

Your play here resembles holographica because you've been lurky and when you've posted it's been weaksauce malarky. It's your scum meta.

re: fakeclaims - p. much every Vi game I've ever been in with flavor, she writes a fakeclaim for you upon request. Which you should know having been scum in her games before.

Wall posts are unnecessary.

You'd kill Townies over Tigers because when you run out of Tigers to kill your game's up. If there's the threat of Tigers there's the possibility of arguing that you're needed to kill them, and that the game's not over because there are Tigers left, not just because you're the living SK. With so many Tigers dead already, now's the time for an SK to kill Town.

I haven't been lurky and I haven't posted 'weaksauce malarky'. You certainly haven't argued that I have. You've just said so over and over and over again. So please. Holographica was an abortion almost as soon as it happened. Give me a few minutes and I'll show why any comparisons are weaksauce malarky.

What's your point about Fakeclaims? I can't tell.

[Plum]

Uh huh, because you couldn't give a damn about whether or not you're right about me being scum. You don't give a damn about scumhunting.

If you kill anything but Tiger tonight you get lynched? No excuses? I'd say I believe it when I see it but I happen not to trust anything that comes out of your mouth in the form of a promise or guarantee.

I have no opinion about the fakeclaim-Domain thing. It's WIFOM either way; Soloism or not I'd believe you're SK.

Magua: Very possibly RayFrost. Alm somewhat less likely given the arguments with Hito and the claimed power but certain things stick out (like ragging on Quadz 'nobody to Doctor' thing because of the playerlist, not because of Nicki Minaj's claim and such) as off, Sotty on review looks soft-then-hard-when-quadz-is-under-pressure on Quadz in ISO but I need to take a break, try to wash my mind out of the biases and counter-biases I have with Sotty (biased by his attacks on me, though many seem legitimate, biased back by his play Day 2 against Quadz and by my own backlash against getting buddied at after the thing with Hito) and read through context.

I have Town or null-Town reads on most of the rest of the players, and most all of them have done something to give me pause before considering them as likely scum.

[Plum]

I don't give a damn about scumhunting...after I called 3 scum and killed 2. I can't be trusted clearly.

Let me rephrase that. You give a damn about scumhunting in general in this because you're the SK. You don't give a damn about my alignment despite your fervent exclamations that I'm scum and that I should be lynched or killed. Dress it up in as many sneers as you like, but you haven't pretended to care to engage with discussions about my alignment today because you've already decided I'm a decent target.

[Plum]

Something else I've thought of: why would he use this clock-draining ability to gain faith instead of making a kill which would be more in line with his win condition? Why not one kill a night guaranteed instead of gambiting with this clock-draining ability to try and get...two the next day? What's wrong with one?

It's probable he has an inherent Factional kill which he can use simultaneously with either a Cast or a regular Active Ability, in which case he could kill while powering himself up for whatever Cast would be most beneficial the next Night.

[Plum]

But that's just conjecture, just like ooba's ridiculous "You need seven faith to win!" theory.

His play runs contrary to what he should have done as an SK and it's fairly ridiculous to say otherwise without more information.

He's lied about his actions and his powers don't line up for a Vig. You think you're shaving with Occam's Razor but you're holding it wrong and have nicked yourself.

Faraday. Are you willing to play this game with me or not. Is all.

[Plum]

VPB, I respect you, too, but I'll cut to the chase: If you honestly think it's weak to pick up on and attack a direct slip of the exact sort your buddy made in a game that ended only very recently, evaluate the statements of the dead scum and find that their behavior towards him is perfectly plausible behavior towards a buddy. If you honestly. Then fine, I suppose I'm not living up to what you think I should. I was willing and happy to continue to evaluate your behavior in terms of the apparent slip and make reconsiderations, but you were far and away my best initial lead for today because of that.

Your claimed powers mirror the sort of powers Vi would give an SK in this situation and do

not

mirror the sort of powers Vi would give a Vig (the more so in a game with what appears to be multiple Vigs). Your claimed actions did not line up with the way you claimed them in terms of what you claimed to have done Night 0 and your motivations for having done so and your reaction Night 1. Given that I do no believe a Vig with your powers is at all likely and given that I think your behavior and claims regarding what you did Night 1 and Night 2 indicate that you are lying to us, I think SK is what you are very likely to be. This does not mean that I trust exactly your Faith-expense claims or your exact powers - but given that I trust you killed Hito and I don't trust you to be Town Vig, I don't trust you. That means I know you're working against the Town with your kills given the number of dead scum at this time and while it does not mean I know why you claimed when you did. The fact that in general claiming such a thing at this point in a game would not be optimal does not give me pause: You may have made a suboptimal play, or your role may vary in a way you have not revealed which would make this claim more viable, or you may have been willing to risk it due to other factors, and you may well have to try to milk the Town's trust as long as you can by whatever means you think you can get away with (I happened to name something you might claim in such an attempt and warned the Town not to give you leeway based on your claim if you tried to make such excuses). Any one of these is plausible and they are plausible in combination - much more plausible than you being Town, and, that being such, I'm not ready to trust you when you say you cannot win. Again, I was not convinced of your scumminess absent the way your claimed powers made much less sense for a Vig than for an SK and absent you lying about your actions/motivations for actions/reactions to actions. It's not about you and it's not about contrived reasoning.

I'm ready for Seraph's idea-that-everyone-will-be-happy-with-and-will-net-scum, then. Maybe it will make us all a bit sunnier towards each other.

[Plum]

I like how RayFrost is getting on his soapbox about how he's having trouble reading and such.

I'd kill AGM for being a douchenugget with his reads.

You let KATSUKI run this game on cruise control for 20 pages without saying anything. You deserved it, so GTFO. MoI and Plum are scumz. Any more problems?

I was going to ask the ever-so-quaint question about where you got your scumread on my, but I have communed with the ISO gods and learned that it's to do with by VPB-related stuff, that scum would be SK-hunting and that SK is furthering our wincon. I noticed that you didn't address the points I brought up about scum being behind now and so SK would be shooting scum. He may not be shooting the top-rated Townies without giving second and third thoughts to it, but he

will

be aiming for Town, our SK. Whom you think is probably VPB.

I'm having trouble figuring out if this all lines up or not; if I thought someone else was hunting the SK, asked the sort of questions that basically showed he was lying to the Town about his role/actions, and I legitimately thought the guy in question was the SK, I'd be inclined to consider it from the Townie-hunting-scum-and-theory-error side and go back to why the attacker thought lynching the SK was a good move in the first place and evaluating that. I don't see that - it's incongruous.

Regarding analysis of votecounts, and regarding interactions with dead scum (specifically, the dead scum who knew Quadz might well go down soon but didn't think they'd be gone so quickly):

--- Ooba's initial vote of Hito is Townpoints

--- If I've said it once, I'll say it again: The way Hito got on Parama is very much indicative of scum getting on a wagon alternative to the Quadz wagon and very unlikely to be a bus-the-other-way.

--- The Demonic Angel wagon in middle of Day 2 is I think

likely

to have one scumbag on it, which is to say out of {Alm, RayFrost, MoI}. Alm was the one of the three who ended up on the Quadz lynch in the end.

--- Both Hito and Singer were soft-against Nobody Special early (with Hito's attacks on AGM putting NS as his prob-scumbuddy - which would, if AGM died and flipped Town, leave NS in the clear on Hito's terms; AGM and NS are unlikely scumbuddies given that, I think). It came to nothing and eventually Hito was soft-Town on NS. There was never much danger of anyone but them getting much up against NS besides themselves, so it wasn't really a counter-wagon, but at the same time I don't think they'd both be inclined to get on the same scumbuddy-who-wasn't-liable-to-get-anything-much-done-to-him-unlike Quadz when the NS wagon would generate no real Towncred and Quadz could. I think alternative-bussing-wagon far unlikely compared to alternative-wagon-on-a-Townie.

--- Hito throws out reads on a bunch of players in one of his posts: The ones who are alive are his top scumread Parama (very unlikely to be his buddy, as described above, with the behavior continuing here) and Faraday and mothrax Town, and NS null-but-a-tad Townish. I happen to have a Townread on Faraday and all that, mothrax was Town, and the other two who were mentioned in the post were Singer and VV; it's not especially promising for NS in that light.

--- Hito's attacks on Sotty do not look like distancing/bussing because few were at all suspicious of Sotty, he never pushed him, and in retrospect most of his behavior seems to be attacking Sotty for the way Sotty attacked me; in context it looks like an extension of the buddying he was attempting to pull with me. Sotty-Town is likely from this alone.

--- Hito lists the lot of these as maybetownies: 'MoI, NS, plum, agm, ray' - Oh. Brilliant. One scum in here at any rate. Of the Townietownies he lists Quadz is on there but so are lots of others, all of whom have flipped scum or who get strong Townreads from the dead scums play except DDD, but he listed DDD and quadz next to each other, and lists them as both Town despite their cross-suspicions. Both of those factors seem like apologetics for the Quadz-Town read in the form of a DDD-Town read, making DDD more likely Town. It does not look like a wise foresightful WIFOM-pull. Remember he never mentioned Quadz and Singer in the same breath despite the way he got his initial misgivings on Singer until she came out with the Neighborizing. Furthermore, Hito never mentioned MoI before or after that in game terms, which is MoI scumpoints.

--- Hito's behavior towards Magua reads as buddying (framing the two of them as the setup-dissecting masters the Town needs) and using Magua's reads (on Quadz) as justification for his own.

--- Singer is less deliberate(seeming), which makes conclusions harder, but I'll wager "FUCK KATSUKI'S IN THIS GAME, TOO" is Town-DA indicative.

--- Singer on MoI: "His next post clearly doesn't want quadz dead, and I have a pretty strong scum-read on quadz, which doesn't make me feel to great about MoI". Hold up, especially because Singer had no vote on Quadz at the time, and besides which she feels the need to question MoI on his reads on Quadz himself and Nicki Minaj, all in all being very effectively wishy-washy on MoI (agreeing with his stances at two points in the post and attacking him for focusing on anything but Quadz . . . and then saying nothing more on MoI that I can see in the whole game). Scum-points for MoI, especially given Singer not having been very subtle about her play regarding Quadz.

--- Further attacks on DA by Singer, digs at their hydra status and what they should and shouldn't be doing with it all read DA-Town with Singer scared of them more than anything else. The later attack regarding it being relevent because they're messing up ISO is weak-attack-on-Town, not on buddy.

--- Singer calls Seraphim Town; given that Singer was here-and-there on Hito and clumsy at best regarding how she played the Quadz wagon I think she's the sort who would be lass-than-likely to give her buddies blatant straight Townreads in the thread, which is Seraphim Townpoints.

Regarding the players likely to be lynched:

MoI over NS as far as I can see.

Did Duplicity have it right when he said {Quadz,Hito,Plum,VPB} - Not sure about VPB but the other three seem bang on ..

I find myself agreeing with this post, albeit not thinking of Quadz as scum. I also want to go check who has been tossing out the ‘Duplicity is obv Vig shot’ arguments later today.

Hate to be asking the same question, but where did I come into your scumlist and why haven't I been there since this post as far as I can recall?

In other news, I'd be willing to guess Verbosity on Hito. I mean, heck, if it's him (and him not as a Priest???) he tended to be fairly, well, verbose.

[Plum]

Hold up, MoI.

Your Moderation ability costs 2 Faith?

[Plum]

Hold up, MoI.

Your Moderation ability costs 2 Faith?

Yes

I don't believe you. Way too cheap for way too powerful an ability. It's easily within the realm of possibility that you Roleblock all the powerful Casts in the game nigh every Night for that cost.

I will buy 2 Faith for a single-target conditional Roleblock, though.

And just checking - it

is

a Roleblock-type action?

[Plum]

Well then you don't believe me and are wrong.

I've posted the description (paraphrased, of course) already.

This is just you looking for any excuse to justify the lazy read along with everyone else on my wagon. Noted.

Oh indeed, I'm sure you missed that lovely long post where I dissected our unwary dead scum and you turned up the most promising looking connections.

But whatever. I don't know why you're avoiding my wagon but the hell you would be as Town in this position. Instead of rambling around muttering things about not being survivalist, you'd size things up. You'd figure that I may be Townish but I'm not obvTown, that you know your own role, and that if it came down to it as far as you know I'm a better lynch than you are. Instead you're worried about people calling you survivalist scum.

And especially now you think I'm lazy person trying to excuse my recent suspicions of you. You'd say the hell with it, that's not Townish, she has a better chance of being scum than me and I can try to convince people that she is a better lynch, which as far as I know she is.

[Plum]

Yo.

I'm the High Priestess of vollkan. Domains are Logic and Verbosity. Lawful Neutral, Town. I have no abilities beyond Worship and Casts:

One Faith - An ability which tells me that it's possible my target is scum. I asked Vi if that meant I'd get the same return on any use of it and she said probably.
Two Faith - Make someone Roleblock immune the next two Nights. I used this Night 2 on Ooba.
Three Faith - Vig kill, succeeds if the target is Chaotic-aligned
Four Faith - Told target's action, if any, and his/her target
Five Faith - Told every target in the whole game of my targeted player. I asked and was told to assume that it would be potluck-order, not chronological order.

I Worshipped Asceticism Night 0, Logic Night 1 (had one Faith), targeted Ooba with my two-Faith ability Night 2 (had two Faith), Worshipped Balance Night 3 (had zero Faith).

and beyond that there's another point on the expense-spread that looks

damning

- I don't want to go into details here and now, but yeah. Doesn't look good either.

My conditional Vig-ability cost less than either of Quadz's claimed death-causing abilities. This is what I noted.

Also, NS is scum. That vote alone is golden. It's direct advantage-taking of the standing suspicions on me with nary an excuse for finding me scummy. VOTE: NS.

[Plum]

He should. If we're massclaiming. I'm not yet certain that's the best course of action, but he should go next if we're continuing in this vein.

[Plum]

I also crumbed a bit here, if anyone's interested.

Plum has me paranoid with the big ol' wall post pointing out a how scummy Nicki is on page 3- It's page 3, and most of the points are pushed about as far as they can possibly be taken- it's like trying to make a case on someone and going through their whole iso to find every point instead of looking at the overall play to find out whether or not they're scum. And there's no mention of anyone else in the game except my domain thing being shiny.

Fair enough; Nicki posted quite a bit and caught my eye with much of her (their?) posting. Pushing the points as far as they could be taken didn't seem a bad option at the time (moreover, I was a little inspired by the scummer for whom I'm High Priestess, so that may have played in; take that for what you will). Most of the other interaction was not nearly as interesting to me as scumhunting material at the time.

[Plum]

He posted onsite within the last half hour.

Claim, NS. And swiftly.

[Plum]

Hold up. Where's the list of probable Domains of the flipped scum?

[Plum]

So, NS, why the scumread on me? Also:

Looking at the three dead tigers we have so far:
- hitogoroshi (hitogoroshi): Little clue. Someone who knows hito better would be of more help here (sottyrulez?). I have my guess, but it's just that, a guess, and I don't feel overly confident in it.
- quadz08 (DrippingGoofball): Claimed Syncretism + Whimsy. Syncretism, I dunno. Doesn't seem to fit DGB's playstyle, which is to just be inscrutably right. That part might be fake. Whimsy, however, certainly describes DGB's playstyle to a T. I think Whimsy is a safe domain to worship from here on out.
- singersigner (Fate): If Fate is not Fervor + Will, I will eat my hat. I think both Fervor + Will are safe domains to worship.

Syncretism/Whimsy/Will/Fervor. Plus my guess is Verbosity and . . . Aceticism? for Hito, maybe others. Concision/Soloism seem less likely to be the Domains of any of the flipped scum.

But anyway. We're looking for a scum Roleblocker. NS has Roleblocking Casts plus Casts that can preserve his own life. Which means: NS, claim targets, amount of Faith you had each Night, everything. And why didn't you do so initially?

[Plum]

It was hard enough paraphrasing? Give me a break. Please.

Also. You didn't Worship Night 0 - presumably because you hoped to Cast Night 1. You chose that as more valuable than pulling your Worship weight for the Town . . . and managed to screw up and not send in an action? When you had freaking Faith? I call BS.

[Plum]

Quite. I'd forgotten.

1. Points Justice - An ability which tells me that it's possible my target is scum. I asked Vi if that meant I'd get the same return on any use of it and she said probably.
2. Technical Correctness - Make someone Roleblock immune the next two Nights. I used this Night 2 on Ooba.
3. Purge - Vig kill, succeeds if the target is Chaotic-aligned.
4. Elementary Motivation - Told target's action, if any, and his/her target.
5. Crushing Grip of Logic - Told every target in the whole game of my targeted player. I asked and was told to assume that it would be potluck-order, not chronological order.

Yes the open mechanics question/over allallegiance claim of any sort at this initial point is a bad idea and quite possibly a scummy one. I have good reason to believe that there are distinct scummy motivations for prompting people to alignment-claim for such a reason and can think of no Town benefit from a blanket ask-and-answer of this question at this time.

This reasoning was related to the fact that my Vig ability was conditional on Alignment and that other abilities might also be - such that forcing a suspect to claim them might be beneficial, but that a blanket policy in favor of Allegiance claiming might well make people unnecessarily vulnerable.

[Plum]

NS has to respond ASAP; we're losing almost %1 of our remaining Battery every hour.

[Plum]

Stalling scum is stalling.

Lynch pl0x

After it had already been proved in thread that it was safe and fine, yes, it was quite clearly that.

[Plum]

Plum, how much faith did you have N1 again?

One. Uno.

[Plum]

RAYFROST: That claim just made my night (also my guesses for domain/alignment if in this game were pretty far off) (also am I maybe a Lady not a Lord I dunno <3).

UNVOTE:

RayFrost and DDD claimed the same Domains (hahahaha Ythill and I have the same domains or what I am

rolling

).

I'm not inclined to believe there are two Townies with identical domains.

Plum: Logic, Verbosity
NS: Concision, Soloism
AGM: Justice, Whimsy
DDD: Justice, Syncretism
DemonicAngel: Asceticism, Concision
sottyrulez: Asceticism, Austerity
RayFrost: Justice, Syncretism

Hold up. I need to chew on this all a bit.

[Plum]

The question becomes are you really less than half the mafia player I hear you are and are pathetically playing out guess the mod here or if you're just scum fishing for an easy lynch.

No need to resort to insults.

Now that we are massclaiming, I want to analyze what information we've gotten and formulate questions based on that information. I'm not yet sure what, if anything, two identical domain-claims might indicate. But the fact that I'm questioning assumptions based on being able to see more of the picture is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I didn't see you complaining when I started speculating Tigers' dead domains compared with NS' claimed domains either.

Lastly, why did you not claim Faith totals initially? Why did you choose Justice to Worship each Night?

[Plum]

Not inclined to believe something means I don't think it's

likely

and that should be a major consideration as we continue to gather and act on information. While I'm not sure what it indicates, it may well indicate something amiss. You yourself claimed some degree of paranoia regarding RF because your claimed domains are identical.

My question lies with your choice of Night 1 domain Worship. Why choose Justice?

Fair enough regarding RayFrost-claims; I misremembered some of the timeline there (bit weird that you didn't at least throw out a mention that RayFrost's claims were accurate initially, but I'll go with it).

Ray: Me being a role in the game + manner of the claim + aspects of the role. It amused me very much.

[Plum]

No wait, shoot, I'm stupid. Disregard that last parenthetical statement as a moment of idiocy.

[Plum]

I can't access the post you quoted (school computer) but Babelfish wants to tell me it's the second page of a thread from 2006. I'm assuming that's wrong, now.

[Plum]

Yeah, I noted that above in one of my responses to DDD.

[Plum]

DDD: Uh huh. Please flail and twist more. I'm paranoid, or however you want to call it, and I say so - while I'm not sure of it, it's quite likely that it means something is off, enough to unvote, take a little time, and think and see whether further information influences interpretation of the fact. I speak of this paranoia because it's worth Town consideration. You're paranoid - enough to mention it out loud and proud. You may be paranoid about lots of things, but you felt strongly enough about this paranoia to mention it and give some weight to it (which apparently was only negated by a truth-tell on RF's part). You do not say such a thing if you do not want the Town to be considering/influenced by that possibility.

I meant to ask about your Night 0 Worship motivations, not Night 1. My bad.

Preview edit: Yoooo, Parama. <3

[Plum]

Erp... fail reading amplified by sickness.

Plum is probably town.
DDD is probably scum.

Though, I'm kind of curious as to why you decided to worship Asceticism, Plum.

I gave a guess at something which might do the least damage in terms of scum gaining from it when I decided to Worship (given my hope that Asceticism-roles would be more likely to have more support-type powers and fewer death-spam powers); it was little if at all better than random pick from domain's which weren't mine, which was my main ideal in Night 0 Worship strategy. Beecause as far as I could see, I as Town wouldn't be getting anything out of my Night 0 Worship because it took away the chance to use the Faith Night 1, so the pool of people who shared any one of my domains had one known Townie known to not get anything out of it, and so was statistically less likely to help Town given the assumption that all domains had roughly the same number of attached roles (and if not, on average) and percentage-wise more likely to help scum.

[Plum]

I like your Angel-Plum btw.

DGB drew it . In the original Picto Mafia.

[Plum]

VOTE: NS

[Plum]

23 player game. 6 scum + an SK is too much right? I suppose it depends, VP Baltar's role was very powerful, Ooba's too and that's just what we know. Otoh Mine and Moi's are fairly tame soo. How many scum do people think we're dealing with?

Dunno. Probably the scum have a mix of super-powerful and tame, too, so there you go.

ARCHNEMESIS- Roleblock 4lyfe (I call bullshit on NS' version, he must be the SCUM CC to me)

Faraday, did you even

read

what Seraphim posted re: DA?

[Plum]

Dammit Seraphim you wait until Faraday claims for that stuff, no?

[Plum]

Eh. Still.

[Plum]

Riiiight. Fine. Show us the PUDDING.

[Plum]

...

Less flailing, more pudding.

[Plum]

It's just as well, I

think

, because DA is more likely to be the Roleblock-Cast Tiger, meaning less chance of the last shot getting screwed up tonight hopefully.

PREVIEW EDIT: LULZ

[Plum]

[Plum]

Ohhhhh Fate.

I'm so sorry I can't make it to Goofbash baby.

[Plum]

I "cleared" Plum to buddy her, plain and simple. Apparently she was doing the same to me, which may be why I'm still alive. damn you plum.

Shut the hell up, scum. Please. You start off today saying sotty probscum/PlumTown and then you're all 'Plum is Tiger' when it suits you dealing with Faraday.

I

killed DDD. Because I could kill and I thought he was probably scum given the ffffs flips we've been getting. If some Death Godfather stuff is going down I just.

Given the Moderation error I've no clue who the remaining Tiger(s) is/are. Parama may be lying about the five Tigers business; it would certainly make enough sense as tactic for him in this situation.

VOTE: Parama

I'd rather not lose to him. Lynch confirmed anti-Town, try to make it through the rest. The end.

[Plum]

You idiots. I killed him with the VIG ABILITY OOBA GAVE ME THE NIGHT HE DIED.

[Plum]

IT WAS A CAST.

[Plum]

DAMMIT I MEANT

NOT

A CAST. YOU GET THE PICTURE. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH FAITH.

[Plum]

NO. NO. NO.

I HAVE BECOME TIRED OF YOU, FARADAY.

SERIOUSLY SICK AND TIRED. DAMMIT, PERSONALLY SICK AND TIRED.

I AM A VIG. THANKS TO OOBA. NO ONE ELSE GOT TURNED INTO A PR THAT NIGHT.

I DID.

I DID NOT SCREW UP.

I WOULD RATHER HAVE KEPT IT QUIET SO THE LAST TIGER, IF ANY, DIDN'T TRY TO ROLEBLOCK ME AND WE HAD A KILL AGAINST WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE AFTER PARAMA GETS LYNCHED.

BUT NO.

YES I VIGGED HIM OVER PARAMA

BECAUSE RAYFROST PROMISED TO VIG PARAMA

.

NO.

YOU, FARADAY.

I AM SO TICKED OFF. SO TIRED OF THIS CRUD.

SO REALLY. IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE LIKE THIS. GO AHEAD.

JUST DO IT SILENTLY.

DON'T GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE. YOU'LL FALL OFF IT SOON ENOUGH.

JUST BE QUIET WHILE YOU'RE UP THERE.

PLEASE.

[Plum]

Thanks, Parama. I needed that. Truly I did.

Please coach me through dealing with Faraday. I've put up with too much of him this game and I just cannot.

[Plum]

Yeah. Him and me and a few other people this game. Having to put up with you has no bearing on alignment. It has bearing on how annoying you can get.

[Plum]

Uh huh. Shut up. You're probably not scum.

In this game.

But your attitude towards me in this game has become intolerable.

So please just shut up. You'll probably get what you want. And what you deserve, at this point, given that I'm Town and you plan to lynch me over Parama-confirmed-anti-Town.

[Plum]

You'll get Plum lynched, but no scum lynched.

You'll have been played.

[Plum]

- Was Plum able to select her own vig kill flavor? What flavor came with her notice of vig power?

I did not select my kill flavor; I assume it was Mod's choice here, but just in case I've sent off to the Mod asking about it. The notice of Vig power came with no flavor at all. I was told I received a Vigilante ability, and when I used it my target player would be killed.

Plum: Seriously. Why didn't you vig Parama after Ray had said he was confirmed scum? Why not kill the 'confirmed' scum and get rid of them as opposed to going for an unknown?

Ray says: Parama is lying; I will Vig him tonight. I think, okay, great. I will use my Vig to kill other potential scum while you do that, and that way your Lighningbolt, which sounds like it ought to kill real nicely, and my Vig kill, will hopefully both achieve something and we will benefit from both. I may have semi-consciously assumed from Ray's claimed killflavor that the kill was borderline unstoppable, because when I had Zeusbolts to throw they were unstoppable (I also remembered them as costing Ray 5 Faith, not 4). But I wanted to take advantage of having two Vigs out, and at that point DDD, after so many unexpected Townflips, looked very likely to be scum.

Night two

Gamma - went splat -

Claimed Parma kill

Hito - mowed down -

VP confirmed kill

singersinger - Embraced Destiny's Bond -

Claimed Seraphim kill

Dram - Struck by lighting

Ray frost confirmed kill

4) Meta Break - Once per game, I can make the player who gains the most faith overnight die.

...

N2 - 5 Faith; Used Meta Break; I have no clue which of the 4 kills that night were from this action. Killed Gamma; I'M SOWWWY GAAMAMAMAMAMA. Also got a tracker from ooba.

Parama killed twice on Night 2, or so he claims. One was the Gamma kill. Ray killed Dram; VPB killed Hito - that's confirmed. Is it plausible that Singer gained the most Faith overnight? Very. Is it possible Parama is lying about this? Yes - but this

should

give us pause.

I other news, if MoI is right the following may be full of confirmation bias - but.

I do think Plum is town-null, leaning on town. Her 59 seems genuine.

Plum needs to post more at this juncture in post 200.

Plum is slightly more town but I'm still wary after post 235.

I actually think we should lynch MoI tomorrow, not hito in all honesty. In fact, I think MoI looks way worse if quadz flips scum. While hito has stood very firmly on the side of quadz = town pretty much all game, MoI has not really took a definite stance. I may not be remembering this correctly but off-hand, that's what I remember.

I could see Plum scum.

I still don't think MoI is town but it drops off because of aforementioned reasons.

Vote: Plum

I'm not sold on this but I could get behind it.

All of his mentions of me up to the point he first votes me. Which is with two strong votes by Town-seeming players - Faraday and Sotty, actually - got on me to start the Day.

And claiming a Track before the player claims what he did is something I don't buy Seraphim doing.

[Plum]

Plum just to check you became a *full vig* upon recieving the abillity from Ooba? I'd actually forgotten rayfrost was a vig, so that makes sense as a reason not to vig Parama too.

Yes, I am a full Vig. Vi got back to me with a complete no comment on the killflavor question, by the way, but yes. And yeah, Rayfrost-Vig saying he'd kill Parama was the reason I didn't join the fun (and unless Parama had already been targeted with a kill it wouldn't have helped anyway, or so it seems, but well). I am perfectly happy to Vig Seraphim tonight. As far as I can see he is far and away the most plausible choice for last Tiger. I'm inclined to believe Parama is SK and lying/bluffing about how many scum are left in a vain attempt to pressure us into trying to lynch someone other than him today.

The thing is: I am

uncertain

that Tiger-scum couldn't Nightkill and Roleblock on the same Night. We can hope they can't, and it's more likely than not that they can't (I mean, we have no claimed Roleblocks from last Night, though it's vaguely possible DDD or AGM was blocked) - especially because that looks to be an SK-bonus type thing of Parama's, and something not intended for the scumteam.

If Seraphim is scum he will have been setting up for the Vig/Town killer claim a long time coming.

[Plum]

Mod Meta is apparently of the

it depends

sort, having taken a quick look at Vi's old Modded games. The good news is that some of the exceptions seem to have been in modified-instant-Night games, of which this isn't one . . .

[Plum]

Sounds good.