American Gods Mafia - Game over

[WrathChild]

First Post!

[WrathChild]

vote:WraithChild

for forgetting to random vote.

OMGUS VOTE: Ani

[WrathChild]

@Ythill:
I've only played in one game on this forum (Cyclic Experiment) and survived to the end and got a town win. However, I play a lot of mafia on another forum and have at least two dozen games under my belt there. However, my first game here was very enlightening and opened my eyes to the fact that this group is much more advanced than where I came from and I'm absorbing all of it with great enthusiasm. That being said, I'm still learning the meta here. For example, I'm still not used to the fact that the lack of a Random Vote in the RVS is seen as scummy.

I just want to add that I'm primarily a 9-5 PST poster on the weekdays and mostly offline on the weekends.

[WrathChild]

I just want to add that I'm primarily a 9-5 PST poster on the weekdays and mostly offline on the weekends.

Is there a particular reason you mentioned this?

Just kind of a heads up that after 5 on the weekdays and all day on the weekends I'm pretty much V/LA. Other than that I try to post fairly often.

[WrathChild]

I'm so confused why Ythill thinks I'm scum. I thought he was referring to me not RVing in my first post because someone else voted me for it and on top of that I got flak in my last game about not RVing someone Day 1. Personally I hate the RVS, and have no clue why I'm being targeted. I suspect it is because I may be viewed as an easy target due to my relative newness here.

I would also like to say that I think it's a bit early for people to be:

#1: Discussing Sac/Revive since it won't even enter play until tomorrow and is a 2-shot deal that should be very obvious as when to use it.
#2: Nominating people for backstage. Which leads me to my next question:

MOD: Are Backstage Votes counted during Twilight?

[WrathChild]

Nominating people for backstage should be dealt out now, I see no disadvantage in voting for people you trust and putting them in the backstage, so that they can discuss whatever.

@A Gaggle of Geese, Fry me?

There has been like 40 posts how can you base a judgement of trust on that? A lot can happen over the course of a day. You mean to tell me that you want to elect the players you trust the most based on their past performances? How do you trust anyone at this point of the game? Do you have information I don't?

If we can elect during twilight it's a no brainer that we wait until then.

[WrathChild]

I just meant that we need to base these votes off reads and that the people voting already ARE NOT basing their votes off reads, but instead voting on the poster, but this is a pretty bad way to go about considering the whole random distribution thing.

[WrathChild]

I'm still learning some of the terms here. What's VI?

[WrathChild]

Ghostlin:

Vote ani

policy

Elect LlamaFluff, Ythill, OGML

Inverse policy.

There is no real point to get into resurect at this point since no one is dead.

For the backstage thing, its imperative to elect people who know what they are doing at this point. This means not anyone from the VI group.

Also im V/LA from the 5th to 9th. Zero chance of getting a post in until late wednesday

The italicised is what I was agreeing with in the first sentence. The second sentence is my view on the optimal way to approach the sacrifice mechanic. I believe what Llama said is he doesn't want to be backstage with VIs, not that he wants to keep VIs to sacrifice (which is what AGar suggested with Furc).

WrathChild: that's basically saying the same thing twice. Is it normal practice for you to declare your schedule at the start of the game?

SGR: I'll answer you once WC answers.

I just like to put that out there so every friday I don't have to write I'm gonna be V/LA for the next two days. That way people understand when I don't get right back to them if anything is directed to me in that time.

[WrathChild]

EBWOP: But yes, I did the same thing my last game here too. The group I come from knows this, but since I'm new here I feel it is good to let everyone know.

[WrathChild]

Elect farside22, Ythill, LlamaFluff

Because I trust their judgement. Even if Llama is policy voting me. It's an early D1 vote. I'm not worried. Wraith's vote is stupid, and unless I see some underlying scum reason to OMGUS vote a voter who random voted him (extremely unlikely), then I'll ignore it.

I stand by my Wraith vote, however. All Wraith has done so far is explain how many games he's been in, defend himself and give us a very tiny amount of meta.

I'd also be up for an SGR lynch, however. That post on D2 just screams "Hello, I'm here and I'm going to defend Wraith because he's my scum buddy".

Can you please explain your case on me because I'm completely lost as to what it is. Are you seriously advocating my lynch because I OMGUS voted someone RVing me? It was clearly a return joke-vote, and basically the RV that he was voting me for not making. Do you really believe that I would in all seriousness OMGUS vote someone on a joke-vote and label it "OMGUS VOTE"?

I repear, If it were a true OMGUS vote, do you really think I would label it as such?

As far as the SGR lynch topic goes, of course this will be biased, but when I see someone defend a player who was not in need of a defense at the time (Yes, I did not need anyone to stick up for me because the votes on me make no sense and I consider them non-threatening at this time), I tend to think it is scum trying to buddy-up with a townie that they see as a likely lynch in an attempt to gain town-points. I think that scum-babying is incredibly obvious and would be avoided at all costs by scum.

[WrathChild]

Unless something really funky happens I foresee always electing myself.

How do you feel about those who have elected so far and not elected themselves?

They obviously don't have the same hyper-inflated sense of self worth that I have. Not everyone can be this awesome.

If you have confidence in your game, you should want to be a part of the masonry each night. Not doing so is simply limiting your interactions, which is always scummy.

Fair enough. One final question: Do you think we should nominate ourselves to go backstage, or seeing as we are two, should weallow those who have only one head the chance to bounce reads around?

I actually think this is a very good idea. Who are you two again?

[WrathChild]

will read the thread and post tomorrow, no time now.

Awesome Avatar. You may have noticed my screenname is Maiden-Born as well. Final Frontier was surprisingly good.

[WrathChild]

Elect farside22, Ythill, LlamaFluff

Because I trust their judgement. Even if Llama is policy voting me. It's an early D1 vote. I'm not worried. Wraith's vote is stupid, and unless I see some underlying scum reason to OMGUS vote a voter who random voted him (extremely unlikely), then I'll ignore it.

I stand by my Wraith vote, however.

All Wraith has done so far is explain how many games he's been in, defend himself and give us a very tiny amount of meta.

I'd also be up for an SGR lynch, however. That post on D2 just screams "Hello, I'm here and I'm going to defend Wraith because he's my scum buddy".

What do you expect me to do? There has been like 40 posts, I'm getting voted for no reason, and meta?

You're upset about my vote on you? You seem a bit sensitive about it. I explained this once and I'll explain it again:

vote:WraithChild

for forgetting to random vote.

Ok, very funny Random Vote. I got it. If you are serious about this reason, I already addressed that. I assumed you weren't serious:

vote:WraithChild

for forgetting to random vote.

OMGUS VOTE: Ani

So since you reminded me I forgot to RV, I thought it would be funny to RV you. To make that even more obvious I labeled it OMGUS. It seems to me that you are honestly OMGUS voting me for joke OMGUS voting you.

[WrathChild]

I actually think this is a very good idea. Who are you two again?

We are chesskid3 and Faraday.

I like the idea of a Hydra Backstage

Elect: Gaggle

[WrathChild]

Dear WC, please learn to not skim:

Elect farside22, Ythill, LlamaFluff

Because I trust their judgement. Even if Llama is policy voting me. It's an early D1 vote. I'm not worried. Wraith's vote is stupid, and unless I see some underlying scum reason to OMGUS vote a voter who random voted him (extremely unlikely), then I'll ignore it.

I stand by my Wraith vote, however. All Wraith has done so far is explain how many games he's been in, defend himself and give us a very tiny amount of meta.

I'd also be up for an SGR lynch, however. That post on D2 just screams "Hello, I'm here and I'm going to defend Wraith because he's my scum buddy".

I addressed all of these issues. What's your deal?

#1: I was joking with the OMGUS
#2: I was asked how many games I have been in. Should I have not answered?
#3: Defend myself? My ISO #4 I express confussion why I'm being attacked and then switch to some discussion of our game mechanics.
#4: I have done a lot more than what you have listed and a lot more than the majority of the players in this game at this point. Read my ISO. You are basically mudslinging right now and I'm pretty sure it's becuase you see me as an easy target. Which is exactly why my vote is staying where it is for now.

[WrathChild]

I'd also be up for an SGR lynch, however. That post on D2 just screams "Hello, I'm here and I'm going to defend Wraith because he's my scum buddy".

I lol'd
I immediatly

FOS

you (Dohohohoh, OMGUS) because you actually think for a second that Scum would not only buddy on their scumpartner, but do it as openly, cleanly and quickly as now.
If I do end up getting lynched... may god have mercy on Town's soul

As far as the SGR lynch topic goes, of course this will be biased, but when I see someone defend a player who was not in need of a defense at the time (Yes, I did not need anyone to stick up for me because the votes on me make no sense and I consider them non-threatening at this time), I tend to think it is scum trying to buddy-up with a townie that they see as a likely lynch in an attempt to gain town-points. I think that scum-babying is incredibly obvious and would be avoided at all costs by scum.

Its not so much as me defending you as me trying to get the logic behind your lynch so I can kill you

Haha fair enough.

[WrathChild]

Wrath. Stop defending yourself.

If you are town, and I have no significant read on you yet, but if you are town you are doing no good in defending yourself. You are going to make the next 5 pages all about you and waste our time.
Instead, scum hunt. If you are scum, your scum hunting should suck, and we'll catch you. If you are town, actually do the town some good.

Also, 0/0 is not 100%, but that's a separate issue.

That's the very reason I'm keeping my vote on Ani. At the point he posted that all I do is defend myself, I had only done so one time and even calling that a defense was borderline, when it really was just me expressing confusion as to why I was being attacked. This was blatant mudslinging by Ani and that is what I am trying to convey here. Look at your post for example, you immediately tell me to stop defending myself, which I'm trying to do but because of Ani's mudsling it keeps being brought up and up again.

If you read my ISO, you'll see that I have started scum-hunting, but you can't expect glorious scum-hunting results when we have barely left the RVS. If you read the suspicions I've posted so far you'll see that they have a lot more substance than the suspicions that are being raised against me.

You're right on the 0/0, I'm gonna fix that. Thanks NERD!

[WrathChild]

@WC:

Then explain what you've done. I've read all the posts and that's all I see. Also, I did not mention your OMGUS vote as a reason I think you're scummy.

lrn2understand.

ISO #4: I question those jumping to discussing a mechanic that we can't even use yet and should be obvious when to use. I question the people voting for Backstagers this early. I ask a very good question to the Mod about Twilight voting for backstage.

ISO #5-6: I question why SGR is so willing to trust certain people this early.

-YOU ACCUSE ME OF ONLY DEFENDING MYSELF, posts after that do not justify your accusation at the time.

ISO #10: I accuse you of true OMGUS voting my joke OMGUS vote. I also express concern that SGR may be buddying with the likely easy mis-lynch to earn town points.

ISO #11 and #14: I support the idea of a Hydra in the Backstage

Now can you take a minute and compare that with what some of the other players have done?

Thanks, I'm done with you for now.

lrn2read

[WrathChild]

I totally agree with you Gaggle, just when someone asks me something I answer and when someone insults me I answer too.

That being said, I'd like people to attach explanations to the Backstage votes, because I'm pretty sure the votes at this point are mostly based off Meta stuff that I do not know.

[WrathChild]

Guys, SGRaaize is scum, lets get him

These kind of comments really bug me, especially when I'm in a foreign meta. The joke-stage is clearly over, is OGML trying to drag us back into the joke phase?

I have my suspicions of SGR, but this is pretty bad. Is this a normal thing for OGML?

[WrathChild]

Do you see town players do that often here? I have seen it done my scum much more than town in my experience elsewhere.

[WrathChild]

EBWOP: "done by scum"

[WrathChild]

I'm sorry my bad, OGML reasoning was perfectly legit. I was totally wrong to question it.

[WrathChild]

OK, I'm back, and people saying I dropped off the face of the earth are exactly why I posted my schedule. BRB with comments.

[WrathChild]

Though before I do my re-read today, I was thinking about this game last night. I shouldn't have got worked up like I did earlier and I don't really plan on getting worked up in the future UNLESS we are in LyLo or out of revives. I was playing this like a normal mafia game where once you are lynched you are dead, but that's not the case in this game. The very best thing any one can do in this game is make their opinions valuable. So I'm gonna get to work with that in mind.

[WrathChild]

Read-Notes

1.

A Gaggle of Geese (Faraday / chesskid3 hydra):

Has been playing pretty level-headed. Seems to have good intnetions. Again, this will be a bit biased, but I think his comment asking me to take a break as opposed to dominating the next 10-20 pages, shows good instincts. I could see why it would be a benefit to the scum to have a long drawn out argument between a few people dominate the day's discussions. If Gaggle was scum I think he would have been instigating the argument not mediating. However, that brings me to my slight concern about him, I don't see him scum-hunting, I mostly just see him mediating. I still think I have a town enough read on him to support him backstage, especially considering I agree with the benefits of having a hydra there.

2.

Nexus:

V/LA, but I don't like that he left a vote on the table before he left.

3.

vezokpiraka:

The two posts made by Vezo don't really warrant a fair read, however with the only non-RVS post getting on the ani bandwagon with little insight to as why seems a bit weak and his lurker status is suspicious.

4.

werewolf555

: With a whopping one post, which votes Ghost on the basis of being in a game with him, I see nothing but lurker-scum.

5.

Tasky:

Promised to comment with his first post and left me a bit disappointed with his second. I disagree with his interpretations of the comment he quoted where I expressed confussion as to why I was being voted, but no where did I act like "Oh shit!" like he stated in order to try to ellude to me contridicting my self within that post. Then he votes SGR with no reasoning besides the quote,
[quote=SGRaaize]Alright, so I'm being voted here.
Honestly, looking back at this game, I see nothing I did wrong, thus I don't feel guilty of this wasted day.
Have fun[/quote]
His accusation of me is weak and his vote on SGR pretty weak as well. I kind of get a skimmer-vibe from Tasky. Please note, I understand the idea of voting a give-upper especially considering the nature of this game's mechanics.

I'm leaning towards scum but it's near impossible to get a good read off two posts.

6.

OhGodMyLife:

When I see someone Tunnel-Vision from their very first post I see someone that is either scum or not willing to actually play the game as it is intended and will drag town down with them. Either way OGML is an excellent lynch.

7.

Ghostlin:

Obviously didn't get my nerd joke, sarcasm is hard on the internet. So after I read his ISO, I had to go back and look at the cases being made on him because nothing really jumped out at me. I see Ythill put him at the top of his scumlist, but I see no explanation as to why. When pried further Ythill mentions Too Helpfull in #22 (I don't get this impression at all), Skimming and cognative dissonance in #43 (I do see some evidence of that and I think SGR and Seacore touch on that too) and populist in #76 (I have no clue what that term means in Mafia). Overall I don't get scum-read on Ghost.

8.

SGRaaize:

Overall has had pretty town play as of late, but earlier on he seemed to express a bit of self-importance when saying town would lose if he's lynched, which kind of ties into my point about the fear of the noose earlier. If he's lynched and so critical to our chances of winning, why would he just not assume that we would revive him when the time is right, unless of course he is scum. Overall, I have mixed feelings on SGR and need some more time to sort those out.

9.

Saint

: Yet to post and no evidence of V/LA.

MOD: Can we get a prod?

10.

Seacore:

I get a town vibe from him and he has been helpful and understanding to me as opposed to trying to push the easy lynch. However he does have a vote on LL that I don't really get and he has not expanded on it much. Care to?

11.

Apokalyptika:

Has had a few posts and demonstrates pretty good awareness of the events. I find his "Dropped off the face of the Earth" comment directed at me a bit frustrating, but that seems to my only concern with him. If I was forced to pick, I'd say town.

12.

Ythill:

At first I was very frustrated with Ythill. He's been very aggressive towards me and I'd put him in the category of targeting the easy lynch. However, he did eventually did explain his attack on me, which is more than Ani did. He seems to be very influential. I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but he seems to have the ability to get people wagoning pretty fast. I also don't like how he shotgunned out a bunch of reads and didn't expand on any of them. The wagoning townreadz is fun comment in #102 bugs me a bit as well. I have the feeling the Ythill is very good as town and very dangerous as scum. I lean towards him being dangerous and would at least like to keep him out of Backstage, but maybe not lynch him today.

13.

Llamafluff

: Seems like a good player, seems to go with town in the right places and still stands up for someone he thinks is a mis-lynch (ani). I get a town read from Llama, but I would like to refer him to this post regarding Ani.

14.

animorpherv1

: In Ani's ISO #2 he badly misreps me to the point of mudslinging. He misreps me again in ISO #4 saying I've done nothing but defend myself (see my ISO #18 for my response defuting that). I put Ani firmly in the push the easy lynch group. I think scum want to push an easy lynch and fast. The easier and faster the lynch for scum the better. He refuses to explain his vote on me because it had no substance. When Ythill attacked me he at least explained it after a while. I have a scum-read on Ani.

15.

AGar:

Seems to have a good understanding of the game and shares a lot of the same reads as I do. I get a town vibe

16.

WrathChild

: Don't need to do this

17.

farside22

: I like that she (?) is willing to put her (forgive me if I'm wrong about gender) reads out there with some explanation. I also think defending SGR was interesting, but not sure what to take from it. I don't really get a good read either way, but if I had to pick I would say town.

18.

Locke Lamora:

Seemed too interested in pushing a lynch based on my schedule announcement early on, but later seems to make a good point against SGR's election of Ythill. Overall he seems to be putting effort into scum-hunting. I have a no read on him becuase his concern about my schedule comment is reaching a bit, but he seems to have good points against SGR.

[WrathChild]

Based on all of that, my top two scumspects are OGML who seems to be a trainwreck waiting to happen and Ani who has misrepped and mudslung to try to push what he views as an easy lynch.

My top three townspects are Gaggle, Seacore and Agar

Elect: Seacore, Elect: Agar

[WrathChild]

I'd be happy to switch my vote to OGML if that's the wagon today.

[WrathChild]

SGR: Of course there's nothing inherently scummy about declaring V/LA. That's not what I said. I said that the way WC offered the information up unprompted suggested he had concerns about people calling him out on it and to me that concern is something that is more likely to come from scum. Sure, townies can do it, but I think scum are more likely to be thinking about it. Evidently you disagree with that, but I don't think it's hard to see why scum would be more concerned.

Ythill: I don't think your point was particularly far-fetched, nor do I think you should have had a rock-solid case at that stage, and I never said either. My problem is with SGR spending a lot of time criticising your logic and talking about how far you were reaching, but that not being at all consistent with him electing you. He appears to have little comprehension of much of your logic, so I fail to see how he is quite happy to put trust in you to go backstage.

WC: can you tell me when I tried to push a lynch on you based on your schedule announcement?

I mis-spoke. I meant that you were focusing on a schedule announcement a bit too much. I apologize, you are absolutely right that you did not try to push a lynch on me. I merely meant that you that your concerns were reaching a bit, like I said at the end of your Note.

[WrathChild]

Hi there, Seacore.

@Mod: is there some reason you didn't prod werewolf?

@Wrath:

I asked you whether you read the rules. Answer please.

Yes I did. Did I misunderstand something?

[WrathChild]

Oh look, OGML tried starting a wagon on me.

Wasn't it a few pages ago that OGML was spewing I'm conditionally scum ONLY if SGR is scum, and without that, he doesn't find me scummy? And he wasn't chaining lynches?

Yeah, sup scum?

More OGML votes would be good. We have scum in our sights here, I see no more point in hopping back and forth between several wagons.

As stated in my Read Notes. I would be happy with an OGML lynch. While he's moved on from tunneling on SGR, his posts since have not improved my opinion of him much at all.

In his ISO #15 he pleads that tunneling is not scummy. This is where I see him at least make an effort to stop doing so. In ISO #16 he does an interesting thing an unelects farside then elects gaggle who he just tried to grill about giving SGR a town read. In ISO #17 he unvotes, but is still trying imply that SGR is scum by appearing to set him up with the question of who to vote for. This implication by OGML is a bit complicated but I can explain it in more detail if people don't see it as I do, but you can see where things were going in ISO #18-20. However, in ISO#20 OGML votes Agar because SGR went "Meh" about him. The still seems like he is basing his reads off other people solely on their interactions with SGR, so even though he is trying to appear like he is no longer tunneling (because he was called out pretty hard on it), he still is. Then in ISO #22 he advocates that Farside is scum, but still wants to see where an Agar wagon goes, which was at a measley 3 votes at the time.

The problem with this whole OGML-Agar thing is that it is based solely on SGR's interactions with Agar. Not anything Agar did.

UNVOTE, VOTE: OGML

[WrathChild]

1) The thing is, AGar, this is day 1. There are no flips, no night actions, nothing. The ONLY thing that we can base scumreads off of is people's words, so nobody can be completely sure of scum except scum. So, even if you're personally sure someone is scum, even if you'd bet your life on it, you're still going to consider the possibility of being wrong, unless you're scum. For instance, I'm considering the possibility of being wrong on you. If I am wrong, then we're disagreeing over semantics, and we might end up with another pointless fight, which is the last thing town needs. However, I'm confident enough to take the risk. Anyone else want to join me?

2) So the Ghost/SGR fight was null all over the place. GG/farside, however, is far more interesting, leading me to believe that there may be scum there. If I had to pick one, it would definitely be GG. That being said, I'm not too inclined to unelect them at the moment. I have null-to-town feelings about everyone else currently going backstage, and I'm sure that everyone else can tell them to keep their squabbling to the game thread.

3) Welcome, MoI. Any comment on my AGar case?

4) I read over OGML's posts again. Not the towniest posting I've ever seen, but not as scummy as AGar. I could actually see them being scumbuddies, though.

5) I really want to hear more from ani, werewolf, and vezok.

I agree with #5. Ani vanished when the heat got turned up.

[WrathChild]

Who disagrees with an OGML lynch?

[WrathChild]

@MOI: You missed the point. I'm bothered by OGML voting Agar purely based on what SGR said or did not say about him. It tells me that OGML is still hellbent on SGR being scum and essentially tunneling on him even though he is trying to make it appear not so. I know people are going to come back to me with a definition of tunneling because, Yes, OGML is not only attacking SGR any more, but his vote on Agar is based on the OBVSCUM assumption that he's smearing SGR with and still demonstrates that he has blinders on.

[WrathChild]

I agree that we don't need to rush into an OGML lynch. We have plenty of time. In fact I find SGR's anxiousness to lynch him a bit suspicious as do I the push away from his lynch by Nexus and Ythill. I think it would be best just to leave him at L-2 until we are satisfied with today's discussions.

[WrathChild]

WC - What suspicion do you have in regards to SGR? Alright after some newb moments I found WC not so bad to read. I don't mind his scum read so much as I'm surprised that he only has 2 people he listed as scum. I'm going to put WC at null and to be watched.

SGR- I don't care for SGR 3 people he wants to vote. All 3 had stated a issue with him. The worst one is LL. Why wasn't OGML on the list? Why do you think OGML is a townie that is not trying hard, rather then scum making a crap case? What reason did you find was valid against OGML? Why do you think there is enough info for the day to end?

My most recent suspicion on SGR is that he is pushing for a quick end to the Day with the weight of the wagon on OGML. I think an OGML flip would tell us a ton about SGR. I know the activity has slowed down significantly, but I think the OGML wagon has showed us a lot. Perhaps another wagon will provide us with more information as well, so why end the day like SGR is pushing? However, I am a tad worried that if we keep moving from wagon to wagon we may loose track of the comments surrounding the earlier ones. I know we can go back and look, but mostly it's just the final wagon that really gets scrutinized.

[WrathChild]

Can someone please point out what OGML has done to give ANY ONE a town read on him. I just don't see it.

@LMP: How is me wanting to hold off a lynch so we can actually use the days until the deadline, instead of rushing it like SGR is doing, scummy? And SGR is now town list for you?

I a bit sick of this shit about my schedule comments. I was merely announcing it to the group as well as the mod? Then people asked me why I announced it causing me to repeat myself. This is my second game here (the first one you wrongly thought I was scum too) and I don't know the protocall. Was I supposed to PM it to the mod instead of announcing it in thread? Give me a break. I think you instantly took our issues from Cyclic Experiment, primaraly my mis-play on the roleblock and have me pinned as a player you don't want to play with. The way things look to me is that you came in with a chip on your shoulder and started off gunning for me from the get go.

Is that true? Am I a player you want to avoid because of last game?

[WrathChild]

EBWOP: "I'm a bit sick of this shit about my schedule comments. I was merely announcing it to the group as well as the mod."

[WrathChild]

My most recent suspicion on SGR is that he is pushing for a quick end to the Day with the weight of the wagon on OGML. I think an OGML flip would tell us a ton about SGR.

This may be the biggest slip so far. Wrath is suspecting SGR based on the assumption of an OGML townflip while supposedly suspecting OGML. Double scumpoints.

Umm did I say townflip. Nope. I said flip. So if OGML flips town it will tell us one thing and if he flips scum it will tell us another thing. I have no idea where you got that I think OGML is town. I've been supporting his lynch this whole game.

(Commenting as I go)

[WrathChild]

So first you were asking permission for the hammer and now you are blaming us that you didn't?

This is actually a good comment aimed at Nexus.

[WrathChild]

So first you were asking permission for the hammer and now you are blaming us that you didn't?

Anyway... I have solid reads on 12/17 players, and leans on a few more. We've had a few decent wagons and two of my townreads are clamoring to end the day. I think I'm ready to start working on the lynch.

Ghostlin remains at the top of my suspect list by a decent margin. Ani and Nexus are the runners up. A lynch on any of them would be good. By the numbers, OGML, Apok, and Wrath have been sufficiently scummy that I wouldn't mind seeing them hang. However, that last bit from Wrath means I'd definitely vote him over OGML and so I'm going to stay away from that wagon unless there is some serious to hop back on.

I'm going to keep my vote where it is right now because it seems like this wagon is still building. If people want to start rallying the Ghost wagon, you can count on my vote there to seal the deal.

What I don't understand about this Ythill is that your vote carries a lot of weight. There are lots of players that view you as town, as evidenced by the election count. If Ghostlin is your number 1 scum read, you should be HELPING US GET THE WAGON GOING, not sitting around waiting to see if we can get it going, and only then coming over. Your vote will be a big drive in getting the Ghostlin wagon fired back up. So quit farting around and vote Ghostlin. You know he's scum, I know he's scum, and he knows he's scum.

The main reason I have not elect Ythill is because he seems to be so influential. I can't get a read on him and his ability to lead wagons is either really good if he is town or really bad if he is scum. LMP actually makes a valid point here in questioning Ythill's avoidance of a Ghostlin push.

[WrathChild]

So first you were asking permission for the hammer and now you are blaming us that you didn't?

This is actually a good comment aimed at Nexus.

What was the purpose of this post?

I was reading and commenting on posts, there was no point beyond that I thought Ythill brought up a good point regarding Nexus' to-hammer or not-hammer comments. I'm still am not sold on the Nexus wagon and would prefer the OGML or Ani one.

[WrathChild]

Umm did I say townflip. Nope. I said flip. So if OGML flips town it will tell us one thing and if he flips scum it will tell us another thing.

Right, but you also said that SGL was scummy for rushing the OGML lynch. So the implication is that if OGML flips town, SGR is scum. And yes, I know that you're

saying

you find OGML suspicious, which is exactly why this particular slip was scummy enough to earn you double points.

I was not saying that if OGML flips town SGR is scum. If I had wanted to say that I would have said, "If OGML flips town, SGR is scum". This is not a black and white as you make it seem. There are many more people involved than just OGML and SGR. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I know exactly what you're doing an I don't like it. It is scummy and weak.

[WrathChild]

So first you were asking permission for the hammer and now you are blaming us that you didn't?

This is actually a good comment aimed at Nexus.

What was the purpose of this post?

I was reading and commenting on posts, there was no point beyond that I thought Ythill brought up a good point regarding Nexus' to-hammer or not-hammer comments. I'm still am not sold on the Nexus wagon and would prefer the OGML or Ani one.

What about ghostlin? Prefer to ignore your scumbuddies altogether?

Please post your case on Ghost. So far all I have seen you do is sheep off of Ythill saying he is scummy. I've read Ythill's case on Ghost and I didn't buy it. Though I do have to admit that now that you are participating I am starting to prefer a Animorph lynch who disappeared as soon as things started looking bad for him.

I need to look over the Nexus case again.

[WrathChild]

@Ythill: You still are missing my point. How many times do I have to say it? It has nothing to do with SGR vs. OGML and how who flips. I am saying that there are plenty of other people and their opinions involved. I am only saying that a high number of people took stances on the cases, which would provide us with good info.

[WrathChild]

WC - What suspicion do you have in regards to SGR? Alright after some newb moments I found WC not so bad to read. I don't mind his scum read so much as I'm surprised that he only has 2 people he listed as scum. I'm going to put WC at null and to be watched.

SGR- I don't care for SGR 3 people he wants to vote. All 3 had stated a issue with him. The worst one is LL. Why wasn't OGML on the list? Why do you think OGML is a townie that is not trying hard, rather then scum making a crap case? What reason did you find was valid against OGML? Why do you think there is enough info for the day to end?

My most recent suspicion on SGR is that he is pushing for a quick end to the Day with the weight of the wagon on OGML. I think an OGML flip would tell us a ton about SGR. I know the activity has slowed down significantly, but I think the OGML wagon has showed us a lot. Perhaps another wagon will provide us with more information as well, so why end the day like SGR is pushing? However, I am a tad worried that if we keep moving from wagon to wagon we may loose track of the comments surrounding the earlier ones. I know we can go back and look, but mostly it's just the final wagon that really gets scrutinized.

I need to quote this whole post because Ythill is just taking pieces of it as he chooses to make me look scummy. This board is incredibly difficult to get a foothold in. You show up and people automatically assume that since you're new you suck and target you as an easy lynch. I dealt with this exact same thing in my first game as well.

Now to the above quote. First Ythill quotes me,

"My most recent suspicion on SGR is that he is pushing for a quick end to the Day with the weight of the wagon on OGML. I think an OGML flip would tell us a ton about SGR. "

But leaves out the next sentance,

"I know the activity has slowed down significantly, but I think the OGML wagon has showed us a lot. Perhaps another wagon will provide us with more information as well, so why end the day like SGR is pushing?"

Which demonstrates that I feel a lot of valuable information was gained by the OGML-wagon (not just stuff about SGR) and more can be gained from another wagon.

I think this demonstrates that Ythill took my comment out of context and views me as an easy mislynch target. I just ask that people actually read the whole quote that Ythill is butchering instead of his OOC pieces.

[WrathChild]

Nexus (6) – Locke Lamora, Ythill, farside22, A Gaggle of Geese, Saint, AGar

LL made a good case on Nexus, while I am in agreement that the OGML lynch should not be rushed, it was the way Nexus announced it was a bit suspicious. However, I don't see it suspicious enough to trigger the size of the wagon that followed. Ythill, Farside, Gaggle, and Agar all just wagon for wagon's sake. Saint provides some content to as why Nexus' post was scummy, but my opinion is that the Nexus post that triggered this landslide was not scummy enough to validate the size of wagon that followed. When I vote for someone, whether it's a wagon or not, I provide the reasons why I want that person lynched. I do not like to just jump on a wagon for the sake of a wagon. I don't know if this is a meta difference, but I don't like it. I think we need to look at the wagonsake wagoners a bit more.

I also have lost confidence in my read on Agar and would like to elect Saint in his place. He has shown he is willing to put some effort into scumhunting, I agree with most of his reads and having played with him in Cyclic experiment I feel confident in his ability.

UNELECT Agar, ELECT Saint

[WrathChild]

I need to quote this whole post because Ythill is just taking pieces of it as he chooses to make me look scummy. This board is incredibly difficult to get a foothold in. You show up and people automatically assume that since you're new you suck and target you as an easy lynch. I dealt with this exact same thing in my first game as well.

Get off your cross. No one went after you "because you were new" they went after you because you did anti-town/scummy things. Maybe you did those things because you were new, but how the hell were they (I) supposed to know that? If I see scummy behavior, I'm going to attack it. "I'm new" is NOT a defense.

Also, the rest of your post doesn't make you look any better. He took those specific sentences because those specific sentences SHOW YOUR SCUM MINDSET.

The sentance he is attacking me for is out of context. The very next sentance I explain what he later accused me of contridicting myself when I said the OGML flip would tells more than just about SGR.

[WrathChild]

Wow, everyone who gets heat wants to replace out. This sucks. It's Day 1 and there have been, what, 2 replacements already and another 2 requested.

[WrathChild]

I am completely down for a LMP-back wagon. Would rather see him back there then Sea, GG and farside hands down, and have him around the same level as Ythill/Apoc. Since no one aparently is happy with a Apoc vote

unelect Apoc
Elect LMP

@Sea - Can you explain your suspicions? You are calling just about all the top wagons scum at this point. What is your order here?
@Agar - Same question.

OGML
Ghost/Nexus
WC
Ani

You're right, I'm wagon-hopping with a bit of reckless abandon. But I'm not going to sit here and re-hash the points on players when cases have already been made. I've already given scumhunting on OGML. I'm not going to give full lists with reads on every player, I'm not going to give a 13 point analysis on why X is scum or Y is scum. I've found my choices, and I'm willing to work with everyone here in order to maximize our D1 potential. If I wasn't, my vote would still be parked on OGML.

Agarese Translation: I'm not going to put any effort into this game, deal with it.

[WrathChild]

537 is a great pointer to why OGML needs to be lynched.

For prolific wagoning. Really? Hypocrite.

@Wrath:

Yeah, I quoted the slip where you show very clearly that you are mafia and didn't mention the unrelated sentence that you are using to try and bullshit your way out of trouble. Pretty scummy, huh? I'm noting here that you are continuing to sully the point rather than explain the discrepancy.

I wasn't trying to BS out of anything. I followed up one statement with another. In the same post in the same two sentances.

[WrathChild]

@KK: First Ghostlin is no longer in the game your vote should reflect the slot, who is 00iCon. Second, I've just been frustrated with the transition into this group from my old one. It seems like no matter what I say here I am the VI, but if you go back and read my last game, my reads were pretty solid, but still you are absolutely correct that I need to stop whining about it and I will try my best to do that. If you actually look at the source of the early pressure on me it was very weak and I was just frustrated having to deal with that.

@Ythill: Quit misrepping me. I never said that I thought OGML is town. I've supported his lynch from the onset of his lock-jaw on SGR. I never once advocated chain lynching. People have been drawing connections/distancing between other people this whole game, but when I say there is something up with how SGR pushed for a quick, premature end of the day when the OGML wagon was at L-2 (give or take) all of a sudden I'm scum. At the point I had a fairly town-read on SGR and his push at the end of the Wagon felt like something to note, but not enough for me to think OMFG SGR is scum and OGML is OBVTOWN, hence why my vote is still on him.

@Seacore: I don't appreciate being labeled VI with out good explanation. I think the cases that have been brought up against me are crappy and don't feel like I've done anything particularly hurtful to town or dumb in the slightest way. So could you please explain why you feel it necessary to label me as such. The way I see it if you get someone labeled VI the less of a chance they have of being revived, which would obviously be the goal of the mafia, get people dead that others won't revive.

Unelect Seacore

@Farside: Could you please explain which of my Read Notes you'd like me to expand on? Keep in mind that was much earlier in the game and a lot has happened since.

[WrathChild]

@LL (#603): If OGML were to flip scum, it would reassure my read on SGR (leaning town), which I begun to lose faith in when he was rushing the end of the day.

@Saint (#606): I think you're picking up on what I was about the Seacore VI comment.

@Ythill (#616): Why are you avoiding hoping back onto the Ghostlin/00ic whatever lynch?

@Seacore (#619): I appreciate the explanation, because it's something I can actually discuss with you and not just say, "I'm not an idiot!". I think the VI/revive thing can go either way. I see where you're going, but I also feel that each dead person that the town won't want to come back is like a Kill+ for mafia. If they kill someone who everyone wants back, it not only brings back a threat, it also adds a second lynch for the day, which is another thing scum would NOT want to see. I kind of feel like your VI comment directed at me served no other purpose than to try to establish a no-revive attitude towards me, when I personally don't think I've earned it. I also don't like how you started off backing off calling me VI and then do it again at the end. I think your interpretation of how things will work is just that and to call me a VI for thinking that the mafia will want to pile up the graveyard with players that won't be revived is scummy for that very reason.

@Llama (#622): Nice regurgitate. Nice skim. This is a scummy post. I stated why I think OGML is scum several times. Read my ISO.

@KK (#623): I'd enjoy a meta discussion sometime. Now why is Furc an auto-disregard (seacore agreed with this)?

@Ythill (#625): LMP makes a statment about needing a flip and now you're ready to rush a lynch? While you don't say it, it sure sounds like you're implying it. That's weird because in your ISO #45, you told saint, "I didn't deter anything except unnecessary rushing" when OGML was on the chopping block.

@Farside (#630): Thanks for pointing out which ones I need to expand on. I will do that, but don't have time ATM. I will say that when I did those, I just went through the individual ISOs (checking in context when needed) and made notes as I went. I'll give you updated reads on them ASAP (Wife was sick yesterday so I was at home, still catching up at work today).

That's all I have time for today.

[WrathChild]

This is mangified by the fact that OMGL is a medium town read to me, and the wagon on him is really ugly looking.

Justify your Town read on OMGL. Seriously. I’ve posted in two ISO fairly clearly why I think he’s scum (ISO1 and the new bit of Cognitive Diss at ISO 16). Please explain why those reasons aren’t valid suspicions.

He reads as town?

I dont really see that much scum motivation for his play. He pushes on SGR, he defends his view and tunnel vision, and eventually is open to change and he justifies the change. There is nothing about his play that screams town, but I dont see much reason to consider him as scum, especially when you compare wagons and who are on them.

The OMGL wagon is one of the most ugly things to me, as I really dont have favorable reads of anyone on it. On someone that you are iffy on, that alone is a decent tell.

Deadline is Saturday and this is a busy week for me, no one is biting on a WC lynch, Ghost-scum is still a fine lynch.

unvote
vote 00con

You know what bugs me? Your OGML town read. I just read your ISO and you not even a single time mention anything he's done to make you think he is town. It's gut, gut, don't like it, gut. You provide no reasoning to why you think OGML is a bad lynch. His play has up until most recently has been nothing but garbage. There is absolutely no basis for such an adamant OGML town read, so much to the point that you call anyone on the OGML wagon scum.

This feels significant so much to the point that I no longer like my OGML vote.

UNVOTE

I need to read a few more things but I think I know what I'm going to do next.

[WrathChild]

Ok, caught up. A lot going on.

First:

Elect: Gaggle, OGML, and Fate

I don't know Fate but have heard a few things about him, so correct me if I'm reading him wrong, but it seems pretty damn obvious why he and OGML should be back there. I think Gaggle should stay back there as I like my read on him and the fact that he's a hydra.

Second:
We should not be sacrficing OGML. I don't mind the idea of a sacrifice today because it can give us a mid-day alignment which could help us picking a strong lynch. A confirmed Town-Tracker would definately be a plus. However, with Ythill dead scum we bought an extra day at least before LyLo. My internal debate with the Sacrifice-Revive today hinges on the issues with liking the extra lynch, but not being sure the timing is right.

Third:
@Farside: Why do you think Ythill was not Vig killed?

Fourth:
I ended yesterday on a "Not Voting" and normally don't like to, but I did see the lynch on 00icon happening as fast as it did. My last post of the day was addressing Llama's "Town-read" on OGML, which really had no basis, so I was in middle of going over Llama again and I really saw nothing indicating that he is town. So to continue what I started:

Vote: Llama

There is also apparently some sort of Backstage issue that has contributed to the building wagon on him, which I may have missed if it was already addressed.

Fifth:
I think everyone needs to reread the sacrifice mechanics. It happens in a sequence. The Ressurect happens first (on a mjority vote (8) of who to ressurect) THEN the vote to sacrifice happens, but before the Ressurected player returns. So everyone should decide if they want to Ressurect Vezo or not. Then the vote to who to sacrifice should be discussed.

This is all that has fit into my tiny brain for now. I'm sure more to come.

[WrathChild]

Also, why is Vezo allowed to vote for his own resurrect?

[WrathChild]

I think I'm starting to agree with the above.

Resurrect: Vezo

[WrathChild]

Afraid of a tracker MoI?

[WrathChild]

Gaggle, who do you want backstage with you?

[WrathChild]

And why?

[WrathChild]

Third:
@Farside: Why do you think Ythill was not Vig killed?

Many people thought Ythill was town. I think only Saint called out Ythill and I questioned his behavoir. MOI had a few choice words but other then that no one really seemed to believe he was scum.
Even the 3 of us backstage felt he was town. I can't see a vig kill toward Ythill. I think he even thought he was safe (wait he's scum that's why), but I know in my head I believed a doc would protect him. LMP stated as much BS as well.

So you're suggesting a SK?

[WrathChild]

WrathChild obviously thinks I'm a [REDACTED]

Regardless, I

SHOULD

be backstage.

Well, I tried to be a little less obvious about it than that.

[WrathChild]

How much more obvious could you be? Now you're drawing attention to yourself, don't try to blame me, I basically sheeped. If you really want to yell at someone, look at Kublai.

[WrathChild]

IVE ALREADY YELLED AT KUBLAI.

HOW BOUTS WE CHANGE THE SUBJECT AND GET BACK TO LYNCHING APOK?

Can you tell me why an Apok lynch is better than a Llama one?

[WrathChild]

OK, I'm really confused why people are writing off the possibility of a town Vig. Why are SK or two scum teams being the only things discussed?

I'm still not convinced on the Apok lynch. I'm still standing by a Llama lynch. Why is Llama posting fluff make him town Fate?

[WrathChild]

OH THATS LLAMA FLUFF

DERP

I alreayd mentioned my read on Llama, TOWN

@Agar: My comment was directed at this one from Fate

[WrathChild]

RL Today blows. No one is talking. I'm going back to re-read Apok, then Re-Read the case on him. I still like the Llama lynch better and Fate has not answered my question why it is better to lynch Apok tha Llama.

[WrathChild]

Well I just re-read Apok and the cases against him, if you could call it that, and I think this wagon on him is bad. I will concede the Llama point, but would like some explanation from the BS people, if they don't want to provide that at the moment at least a time frame as to when they will.

UNVOTE

I also agree that maybe we should save our Revive for another day.

UNVOTE RESURRECT

Now back to reading.

[WrathChild]

Ok, we still have not figured out how to use the Resurrect mechanic yet. You vote for a person to resurrect THEN you vote who to be sacrificed. Regardless LMP hammered the resurrection, which I support. Hopefully Apok will come in with some good results. Also why are we sacrificing anyone BUT MoI? Seriously? The quick-hammer yesterday was the scummiest thing done all game. I love trading scum for confirmed town power roles. Let's get this done:

Sacrifice: MoI

I need to go back and check some things, assuming everything goes accordingly with the Sac-Revive.

[WrathChild]

I also agree with Agar, that the backstage thing kind of feels unfun, perhaps we should get a whole new group back there considering everytime they come up with a "plan" it gets foiled somehow. In fact, cosidering that, there is probably scum in the remaining backstagers.

[WrathChild]

So ...

Night 1 Backstage:

-LMP (Ythill, LynchMePls, Llamafluff, MagnaofIllusion,

Apokalyptika

, Kublai Khan, Locke Lamora, A Gaggle of Geese, OhGodMyLife, farside22, AGar)
-Farside (farside22, Seacore, SGRaaize,

Ythill

,

Apokalyptika

, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Kublai Khan)

-Ythill

(Llamafluff, Seacore, Agar, SGRaaize,

Vezokpiraka

,

Apokalyptika

, Nexus, LynchMePls, OhGodMyLife)
-Gaggle (

Vezokpiraka

, WrathChild, AGar, Locke Lamora, Nexus,

Ythill

, A Gaggle of Geese)

Night 2 Backstage:

-Gaggle (Seacore, farside22, A Gaggle of Geese, OhGodMyLife,

Fate

, Saint, WrathChild, AGar)
-Farside (Seacore, farside22, A Gaggle of Geese,

Fate

, Kublai Khan, Saint, MagnaofIllusion,

Apokalyptika

)

-Fate

(Fate, OhGodMyLife, A Gaggle of Geese, farside22, Saint, WrathChild, AGar)
-LMP (Llamafluff, Kublai Khan, MagnaofIllusion)

I want to update this once we get an MoI flip (and HUGE FoS on anyone not voting to sacrifice him). I suspect scum had a strong presence backstage Night 1 and still had someone backstage Night 2. It appears that Farside may have brought up this concern earlier so I would like to think Farside would be the least likely to be the one backstage comprimising their plans. That leaves LMP and Gaggle. I think Gaggle has been riding townpants all game and am suspicious of them for that very reason, but I also find it extremely suspicious that LMP was elected backstage on a measley 3 votes, making him the most likely candidate for a scum-promoted BSer.

[WrathChild]

what's 'riding townpants'

Acting like confirmed town.

What do you think about LMP being your BS leak?

[WrathChild]

Oh, I also forgot about Farside. I would support only one BSer to return backstage. No more though. That way if their is another "leak" it could be pinpointed and at least the fact that we are addressing a leak, may make scum less likely to act on it.

[WrathChild]

I've gave my thoughts on the BS leak and why I think we're alll maybe town.

I'm...I'm not really sure why you think that's a scumtell either.

It just think that there is obviously a bit of a reason for concern when the last two nights you guys made some sort of plan only to have it foiled.

[WrathChild]

How the hell are you going to find out if there has/hasn't been a leak?

Maybe when your plan doesn't get screwed up by scum like the last two nights?

[WrathChild]

unsacrafice

the first plan was 'foiled' by ythill dying and being scum, it's not a negative at all. wat.jpg

So do you think Ythill would have sat and kept your plan a secret to all his scum buddies? Hence it was foiled.

[WrathChild]

I'm just saying that I don't think we should keep the same group backstage. If anything only return one.

[WrathChild]

On to another subject. Saint claimed to have been roleblocked, last night there was one less kill, coincidence?

[WrathChild]

Unsacrifice

[WrathChild]

Sacrifice Saint

[WrathChild]

uh yeah wrathchild's still prob town, bad point against saint though.

How so?

[WrathChild]

Whatever. The BS group has done nothing but come up with plans that fail the next day. I have yet to see any good come out of that group being backstage.

I'm obviously fine with an MoI sacrifice, but also think Saint is worth considering due to the Roleblock missing kill thing. I specifically asked Gaggle to comment more on that but he avoided doing so. LMP, thoughts please?

[WrathChild]

Saint-scum would not surprise me in the least. I'm glad you're here and posting though, because I completely forgot about how much you need rope. Ythill's play in regards to you at the end of D1 is pretty telling.

Yeah glad I could do something useful before you push for my mislynch.

[WrathChild]

Ok time to bring this out, I think last page should be able to get us something as the game goes on, so I will break this whole stalemate of info hiding.

Through my role, through AGars role, or through someone elses role, I know that AGar is not scum. I got this info from a night one result. That is why I have been trying to shut down that wagon discussion as much as possible starting day two. Can we please stop trying to kill him now?

So why only a Night 1 result and not a Night 2 result?

[WrathChild]

I'm fine sacrificing or lynching MoI
When we decide which one, I will vote. I don't want us to miss out of sacrificing and getting back a watcher that we can use, the problem is with the setup I am seeing there is VERY LIKELY TO BE A ROLEBLOCKER.

I'm sorry I misread the giant capitalized letters as you saying that you were roleblocked. How silly of me. If you were truely just speculating based on the setup why did you capitalize the words?

[WrathChild]

You weren't roleblocked Saint?

[WrathChild]

Along the same lines as Seacore's comments, what was Fate's super secret reason for OGML being town that he shared backstage? Now that Fate's dead is it a secret necessarily worth keeping?

[WrathChild]

sacrifice: AGar

I am like the most clear person in this game considering my interactions with Ythill, what the fuck are you all smoking?

Yeah scum never try to distance themselves from other scum. Why are you flipping out so much about my roleblock question? It seemed to be exactly what you were implying with big bold letters, but as soon as I draw a connection between you and the missing NK you don't want to talk about it anymore?

[WrathChild]

• The entire town must first make a majority vote on who to resurrect, then a majority vote on who to sacrifice before they hammer their regular lynch choice.

Just putting it out there that before the sacrifice goes through we are safe from anyone ending the day before it happens. Someone was concerned about that, I forget who. We have already majority revived Apok, and now must majority sacrifice someone and can not hammer MoI until that happens. So until the sacrifice vote hits seven we should finish discussing important matters and electing (which I'm working on myself). With MoI at L-1 the day could end anytime once the sacrifice happens. I still support an MoI lynch, but fear that scum will want to hammer quick to end the day, especially if Saint flips scum.

[WrathChild]

Elect: Llama

(has some sort of info on Agar and promised to share),

Elect: Farside

(My choice for the one to return from previous backstages). Still thinking of my last choice.

[WrathChild]

@Saint: Speed lynching MoI isn't going to change the fact that the Revive has already hit Majority, so now we MUST sacrifice someone.

Also, I'm pretty sure I wasn't about to give Ythill townpants Day 1, in fact I was quite suspicious of him, but when he died and flipped scum I wasn't going around yelling I told you so.

So now you were Rolecopped and not Roleblocked?

[WrathChild]

unvote: MoI; sacrifice: MoI
unsacrifice AGar; vote: AGar

Did you miss the part of Llama claiming town results on Agar?

[WrathChild]

the mod is not going to not include a roleblocker in a setup with a watcher/tracker, considering what I know, end of story

Wait. You just said that you can confirm there is a roleblocker two posts ago, now you're saying that the mod can't include one with a Watcher/Tracker (both confirmed to exist). You're making no sense.

[WrathChild]

unvote: MoI; sacrifice: MoI
unsacrifice AGar; vote: AGar

Did you miss the part of Llama claiming town results on Agar?

Did you miss the part where LF was suspected due to his interactions with Ythill backstage?
I didn't.
I also believe they are probably a team. AGar also could be a Godfather, even with an inno on him. I am perfectly happy testing it.

He doesn't post this well or care this much when he is town. He is most definitely scum due to meta. I've seen his play for like 2 years on and off site, I know him very well.

So you like to kill claimed info-roles before they get a chance to be heard? You're talking to a guy that wanted to lynch Llama for the last two days.

[WrathChild]

@Saint: Were you or were you not Roleblocked last night?

[WrathChild]

WC is a world class angler. His last 3 or 4 posts have been nothing but high quality fishing.

Did I ask him what his role was? No. I'm pretty sure I know what that is anyway, no rolecopping involved. Just logic, which is something LMP has been using sparringly.

[WrathChild]

You know what, I think WC should have to say what he thinks Saint's role is, and how he deduced it as specifically as possible.

Talk about rolefishing!

[WrathChild]

This makes me want hang LMP almost as bad as MoI. Almost.

[WrathChild]

Role fishing can be done in many more ways than just "what is your role". Don't be obtuse. All of your recent posts have been designed to elicit more information from him about his role than he has been willing to claim. THAT'S ROLE FISHING.

No. I'm pretty sure I know what that is anyway, no rolecopping involved.

my role is unlike any I've ever had, tbh.

So his role is obscure enough that it is "unlike any he's ever had", but you've deduced what it is anyway? That's fantastic.

Are you too dense to figure out that there may be other reasons involved? Saint is buying time to come up with an obscure roleclaim. My postulation of his role is not something very obscure.

Considering the amount of suspicion on Saint already, asking him if he was roleblocked is a relatively harmless question compared to all the full claims that certain people are demanding at this point in the game. The fact that he has avoided it just makes me more suspicious.

[WrathChild]

You know what, I think WC should have to say what he thinks Saint's role is, and how he deduced it as specifically as possible.

What's the matter, don't want to be on record with what your "deduction" is? Why is that?

How it is deduced "as specifically as possible" involves a Role Claim that you're fishing for.

Now tell me how me asking for Saint to share if he was roleblocked last night is a worse offense than people pushing specifically for Role Claims (Like you).

[WrathChild]

I was not roleblocked to my knowledge
my role enables me to pick between 3 options at night, one which has a 50% chance to obstruct roleblocking
that is all that I am going to share for now

@WC: Is this what you "deduced" him to be? If not, what did you deduce? And why was this "so obvious if your paying attention and using logic"?

No this is not what I deduced him to be and it smells like BS, and I don't mean Back Stage. Take a moment and think about the only ability of his "3" that he has claimed.

"A 50% chance of obstructing roleblocking"

So if someone tries to roleblock him he has a 50% chance of not getting roleblocked if he uses this ability? Or he has to pick a target he thinks will be roleblocked and they have a 50% chance of not getting roleblocked if they are even roleblocked? Typically when a role involves multiple abilities these multiple abilities are generally of the same power level. If we are to believe this claim Saint has three pretty crappy abilities, or one really bad faked ability, or there are like 6 Roleblockers in this game.

[WrathChild]

I still don't really buy his claim, seems too convient but the flavor fits because Mr. Ibis was a mortician. It does make me feel even better about a Saint sacrifice, which should be able to prove or disporve the accuracy of MoI's claim. Also, something else was bothering me about Saint's claim. I'll be back with a quote.

[WrathChild]

I urge someone to simply vote on MoI so you all don't lynch

yet another power role

fucking idiots

I was not roleblocked to my knowledge
my role enables me to pick between 3 options at night, one which has a 50% chance to obstruct roleblocking
that is all that I am going to share for now

@WC: Is this what you "deduced" him to be? If not, what did you deduce? And why was this "so obvious if your paying attention and using logic"?

No this is not what I deduced him to be and it smells like BS, and I don't mean Back Stage. Take a moment and think about the only ability of his "3" that he has claimed.

"A 50% chance of obstructing roleblocking"

So if someone tries to roleblock him he has a 50% chance of not getting roleblocked if he uses this ability? Or he has to pick a target he thinks will be roleblocked and they have a 50% chance of not getting roleblocked if they are even roleblocked? Typically when a role involves multiple abilities these multiple abilities are generally of the same power level. If we are to believe this claim Saint has three pretty crappy abilities, or one really bad faked ability, or there are like 6 Roleblockers in this game.

@GG: I know for a fact that there is a % based system in my role PM. I get to pick between 3 things, all of which are % based (50%), and one of which is fairly obsolete. I haven't been using the one I've mentioned thus far. I have been using the third option which I would rather not disclose.

@LF: Delayed rolefishing is still rolefishing. I wouldn't give into it at all if I wasn't under pressure from what I'm considering to be the scumgroup. I was the only one who would stand up to Ythill, but I am suspicious as fucking hell of You/AGar/GG and the backstage troupe excluding Farside.

This does not seem much like a power role to me. Especially considering that he has 3 abilities, each with a 50% chance of success, about on par with near-worthless Roleblock-Stop. There seems to be a disconnect between his precieved power level and claimed power level.

[WrathChild]

@MoI: It's convient because it was basically Saint vs. MoI for the sacrifice and you claimed scum result (in a sense) on Saint to save your ass. That being said, I don't like all the flavor-power-level guessing that's going on. The flavor of the role matches the flavor of the book and I also think Ibis was a bigger role in the book than just a "minor character", so I think that's about as far as we should go with the flavor stuff. It's pretty apparent this game is not breakable by flavor, just from what we know already.

[WrathChild]

I did visit Fate, which is why I've been saying I was fucking roleblocked and making shit up about that, since I didn't die and fate died

Wait. You said you weren't roleblocked:

I was not roleblocked to my knowledge
my role enables me to pick between 3 options at night, one which has a 50% chance to obstruct roleblocking
that is all that I am going to share for now

I did visit Fate, which is why I've been saying I was fucking roleblocked and making shit up about that, since I didn't die and fate died

So you tried to protect Fate last night and even though you only had a 50% chance of success you are sure you were roleblocked because you were supposed to die but you didn't and Fate died instead. Or are you sure you were roleblocked for some other reason and just flat out lied about the obstruct roleblocking part of your ability? Or is that still one of your abilities and the 50% bodygaurd is a different one? Is this an April Fools joke?

You do know you were already sacrificed right? We just need to wait for the Mod to do it.

[WrathChild]

@MOD: Are we gonna get a Saint flip before the day is over? He's been at majority for a while now. Or does the sacrifice happen AFTER lynch?

[WrathChild]

”I can’t stop you from hunting eagle stones and thunderbirds. But I would infinitely prefer that you spend your days quietly sequestered in Lakesaide, out of sigh, and, I hope, out of mind.”

The sacrifice flip happens when the lynch flip happens

That sucks.

[WrathChild]

Going to read back now.

[WrathChild]

Scum have tried to kill me already, so that's how MoI knows I'm an SK.

Well now I know you are a Serial Killer. Before I just knew you were an anti-Town killing role.

CONFIRM MEGA VOTE: MOI

There's only one way MoI knows Saint is an SK and not lying scum.

[WrathChild]

MoI L-2

[WrathChild]

There's only one way MoI knows Saint is an SK and not lying scum.

Lulz. Yeah, the fact that SAINT JUST CLAIMED IT IN THE POST I QUOTED.

Feel free to make a completely horrible justification to hoppin on my wagon.

Was I wrong in assuming that Ythill wasn't trying to bus you?

Oh ok. I claim invicible cop that get's to kill a player if they come up scum.

Does that make it true?

[WrathChild]

There's only one way MoI knows Saint is an SK and not lying scum.

Lulz. Yeah, the fact that SAINT JUST CLAIMED IT IN THE POST I QUOTED.

Feel free to make a completely horrible justification to hoppin on my wagon.

Was I wrong in assuming that Ythill wasn't trying to bus you?

Oh ok. I claim invicible cop that get's to kill a player if they come up scum.

Does that make it true?

Just in case anyone is going to get any ideas here, I'm just making a point. Saint claiming something does NOT make it true. The fact that MoI just swallowed it up made him confirmed scum in my eyes. Hell Saint already claimed six different things today, why are we supposed to believe that he's SK and not lying scum?

[WrathChild]

Just in case anyone is going to get any ideas here, I'm just making a point. Saint claiming something does NOT make it true. The fact that MoI just swallowed it up made him confirmed scum in my eyes. Hell Saint already claimed six different things today, why are we supposed to believe that he's SK and not lying scum?

....

Because Saint is already sacrificed. And he doesn't gain/benefit anything from claiming SK?

Why are you focused on what Saint is saying? Is your case on MagnaofIllusion dependent on Saint?

As much as I wish it were the case, it's not true. The sacrifice and the lynch happen simultaneously, so if we really wanted to we could decide not to sacrifice Saint (we would still have to sacrifice someone though). I'm a bit peeved at the Mod because this is NOT how it was worded in the rules, but when asked specifically he clarified. The advantage of sacrificing saint and lynching MOI is if MOI flips town, which I doubt he will, we can revive him if we feel so inclined.

[WrathChild]

Has anyone ever seen caught scum claim SK? How did it work for them when they did?

Yep, it worked out.

I have done it and it has won me the game. I'm exceptional though I guess. Hito did it in the recently completed court of the gods. Mine was in karma mafia.

See? I've done it as well and I suspect another player is doing it in another game I'm in right now too.

[WrathChild]

Just in case anyone is going to get any ideas here, I'm just making a point. Saint claiming something does NOT make it true. The fact that MoI just swallowed it up made him confirmed scum in my eyes. Hell Saint already claimed six different things today, why are we supposed to believe that he's SK and not lying scum?

Are you being serious here? Because this is so illogical I don’t even …

Players facing immenint death via Lynch (or in this case Sacrifice) don’t lie when claiming scum (AKA non-Town) after claiming a non-scum Power-role.

The only question is if he’s in fact lying Mafia hoping to get leashed as a Serial Killer

. Given that no-one so far has counter-claimed his shot on Ythill I doubt very much he isn’t an SK.

Your statement here is ludicrous as it throws all semblences of logic out the window. It’s either scummy or stupid … not sure which.

See my post @KK. Saint is not sacrificed even though he is at the majority. He sees he can still weasel out. My point is and you even confirm it yourself as a possibility AFTER I grilled you for it. There is a DISTINCT possibility that Saint is lying Mafia, the fact that you did not even consider it tells me you already know that he is not. Then you tell me it's FailCakes logic when you even used the same logic in the above post.

[WrathChild]

Yeah, fair enough.

I'm Sam Black Crow, I'm Human, I'm one of my favourite characters in the book, oh, and I'm a Commuter. I commute on prime numbered nights, which I thought was a pretty cool little twist given the theme.

That's what my little fake soft claim was about during day 2. About watching and investigating, etc. I was trying to pull a NK. Maybe I got one? Given there was only one kill.

Hang on....

Saint. You're claiming SK. You're claiming the Ythill kill. Have I missed (granted I've been skimming because of RL shit) where you claimed your N2 target? You said back when you were still fake claiming that you visited Fate. Did you? Was that the person you killed N2?

Anyway, apart from that, there's not much to my claim. I'm safe again tonight, but if I'm still alive N4 I could probably use a protect...

The hitchhiker chick?

[WrathChild]

RE: Flailing Saint
I've got a bad feeling he's not an SK and not on Ythill's team. I was thinking his claimed role (at one point) would fit perfectly as Loki (Low-Key), the god of chaos and part of the two-man con with Wednesday. Could Saint have a partner and be doing all these schenanigans to pull wool over our eyes that he has a partner?

RE: Seacore
At this point I'm not entirely comfortable hammering him, but I am going back to read his ISO and related topics and will consider hammering after. I'd still prefer an MoI lynch at this point, but see that possibility fading fast.

[WrathChild]

The Seacore wagon is not a good one. I just re-read his ISO and get a town read. I have a strong scum read on MoI, therefore I'm pretty sure there is scum on the Seacore counter-wagon.

Seacore (6) – LynchMePls, Llamafluff, OhGodMyLife, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Kublai Khan

MoI is OBV on there, but that could be survival and apparently people want to keep him alive to test his ability tomorrow. If we lynch saint and he IS Town Vig then MoI would get the vig shot the next night. So I think that should be an option. If people are hellbent on testing MoI tomorrow instead of lynching him then I want to lynch someone of the seacore wagon, which I'm going to inspect further.

[WrathChild]

RE: Flailing Saint
I've got a bad feeling he's not an SK and not on Ythill's team. I was thinking his claimed role (at one point) would fit perfectly as Loki (Low-Key), the god of chaos and part of the two-man con with Wednesday. Could Saint have a partner and be doing all these schenanigans to pull wool over our eyes that he has a partner?

That doesn't seem likely as a motivation as I expect his flip would give some indication if he was part of a unit ...

I suppose, but at least that would protect him from us looking today and knowing for certain until tomorrow.

[WrathChild]

Haha, I just looked over the Seacore wagon and with the exception of KK and farside my top 4 scum reads are on it. Obviously they all can't be scum, but let go over this real quick:

LMP: No case on Seacore, just OMG SCUM! comments.
Llama: Had a terrible logic Town-Read on OGML Day 1 and there was apparently some Backstage talk about a connection to Ythill.
OGML: Super scummy day 1 and rode town pants after Fate fake-cleared him. Then he was critical in the Apok mis-lynch who was speed hammered by...
MoI: I've explained enough why I think he's scum, read my ISO

[WrathChild]

Haha, I just looked over the Seacore wagon and with the exception of KK and farside

my top 4 scum reads

are on it. Obviously they all can't be scum, but let go over this real quick:

LMP: No case on Seacore, just OMG SCUM! comments.
Llama: Had a terrible logic Town-Read on OGML Day 1 and there was apparently some Backstage talk about a connection to Ythill.
OGML: Super scummy day 1 and rode town pants after Fate fake-cleared him. Then he was critical in the Apok mis-lynch who was speed hammered by...
MoI: I've explained enough why I think he's scum, read my ISO

Besides saint.

[WrathChild]

Sorry MOI I just can't shake this scum read I have on you.
You did make points I forgot about. I retract the fos.

WC: You don't see KK as scum? Any reason why?

I don't see him as town either. I just said he wasn't at the top of my scum list.

@MoI: The reason people aren't buying your claim is because your hammer yesterday was so scummy. Seacore doesn't have that bleamish on his record like you do, so his claim is being taken with less scrutiny then yours.

[WrathChild]

seacore keeps talking about things that aren't scumhunting. the setup. other games. lots and lots and lots of text about stuff that isn't scumhunting.

Oh the irony. What of your ISO is scum-hunting? You scummed it up Day 1 trying to get a lynch on SGR until you realized it wasn’t happening and abanodoned ship. Then you lurked until your buddies could engineer a lynch on someone else.

Day 2 you pop in with ‘Oh, sacrifice me’ for Town Brownie points and then sheep Fate on Apok. Your ISO 50 is simply a case of you picking out select quotes from Ythill’s ISO that supports your wagonning. That’s not scum-hunting.

But since you are getting a ‘pass’ let’s see how good Fate’s read is.

UNVOTE: OGML
VOTE: Apoc

Yeah this totally looks like an accidental hammer.

[WrathChild]

As alluded to earlier, I can get behind an OGML wagon.

UNVOTE, VOTE: OGML

[WrathChild]

I don't like this Gaggle Ooba fight. Can we focus? Gaggle is over-reacting btw. I still get a town read on him, but it is diminsihing. Can someone please hammer OGML? Deadline is fast approaching. I want to lynch MoI but nobody is listening. I'm happy with an OGML lynch. I'm happy with an LMP lynch, I'm happy with a Saint Sacrifice or lynch. Overall, I'm pretty content with all our choices but the Seacore wagon, which I don't like one bit and have already addressed that. Somone (at least one) on that wagon is scumbuddies with MoI.

[WrathChild]

Ok, Back from the weekend.

-A: GG has completely switched gears, I had a pretty town read on him up until today and he has seemed to go off the deep end today. I'm not sure what the deal is and I'd actually like him to address this. I mean he was getting a bit aggressive yesterday, but today his aggression has gone beyond reasoning IMHO.

-B: Llama's all-clear list doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He cleared MoI, GG, OGML, SGR and LMP, but we've only had 3 nights. As far as I can tell his role can only clear Ooba and LMP. I see no reason for MoI, GG or OGML to be taken off the list and there are people sheeping that too, primarily the people that are faux-cleared. Something is not right about Llama's claim or I'm being really dense.

-C: I still think MoI is lying scum and I'd much rather lynch OGML over him.

In fact:

VOTE: OGML

Elect: Apok

[WrathChild]

Wait, so Llama is just getting results from a Random source? Are these games allowed to be bastard enough that scum could be feeding him fake results?

[WrathChild]

I would happily get on board with an MoI lynch. The only reason I went OGML over him at this point is that I think there is a chance to confirm MoI as an even night commuter.

[WrathChild]

Sacrifice: MoI
Elect: Gaggle, Apok

Now we were having a bit of a discussion backstage about our resurrect options:

1.

Vezok

: For the chance of a scum result at the cost of bringing back a weak scum hunter. Ooba also mentioned that we should consider the advantages of power loading power roles, especially now that Apok is still alive. While I can only speak for myself, I think the others BS agreed, I was under the impression scum would kill Apok tonight. Now we have a Confirmed Town Watcher and whatever investigative role Llama claims (which is suspect). Ooba felt that if we revive Vezok tonight we will be guaranteed to have one PR (if we believe Llama) live through the night and probably get a good result.
2.

Fate:

Strong scumhunter (so I'm told), but a vanilla role and a possible thread derailer.
3.

Seacore:

The idea behind a Seacore revive was that he may not be as strong of a scumhunter as Fate (which is something I'm taking people's word for), but his role does leave a little thorn in the side of scum, at least more so than a vanilla and less so than a Tracker.

[WrathChild]

hide more WC

HIDE HIDE HIDE

I just want to add that I'm primarily a 9-5 PST poster on the weekdays and mostly offline on the weekends.

Reading is tech. I am not an amnesic cop.

[WrathChild]

Gunsmith in a book where no one actually uses guns do they? Oh some do, but since scum were randomised and given MOI's character, eh. This looks like a way to save WC from the lynch as he doesn't have enough credibillity to pull off the cop gambit.

Why are you convinced I was on the chopping block? I don't get your reasoning.

Spoiler: Book spoiler

A very prominent character gets a sniper bullet to the eye-ball in the book.

Now with that aside, I haven't bought llama's breadcrumbs this entire game. Read my ISO, the BS people from last night can attest that I do not trust llama as far as I can throw a boulder, but thought at least he was worth a shot to confirm himself.

Catching up from the weekend be back with more soon.

[WrathChild]

revive vezo
vezo tracks LLAMA

AND HE DAMN WELL BETTER GO SOMEWHERERERER

Vezo won't be able to track Llama until Night 7.

[WrathChild]

1. A Gaggle of Geese (Faraday / chesskid3 hydra)-Town (not confirmed but for now the closest thing we've got besides Apok)
4. LynchMePls - ???
5. MagnaofIllusion - Scum
6. OhGodMyLife - ???
13. Llamafluff - ???
16. WrathChild - Town (My info, not yours)
17. farside22 - ???
18. Locke Lamora - ???
11. Apokalyptika - Town

Now MoI is Sacrificed for sure, leaving me with:

4. LynchMePls - ???
6. OhGodMyLife - ???
13. Llamafluff - ???
17. farside22 - ???
18. Locke Lamora - ???

If we believe Llama:

6. OhGodMyLife - ???
17. farside22 - ???
18. Locke Lamora - ???

We have probably at least three scum left... interesting.

If we don't trust Llama, I am back to:

4. LynchMePls - ???
6. OhGodMyLife - ???
13. Llamafluff - ???
17. farside22 - ???
18. Locke Lamora - ???

I have reason to believe that there were no scum backstage last night, or that the scum think I'm a non-threat/easy-lynch, so I'm going to take off LMP from that list.

That leaves me with a call for ISO on OGML, Llama, Farside and LL. I'll work on those today.

[WrathChild]

RE: OGML, Re-Read
I saw only one post with any substance over the last two days. OGML seems substantially scummy to me, it appears that he is putting no effort into this game and just cruising.

[WrathChild]

RE: Llama Re-Read
Here's what really bothers me about Llama. Day 1 Llama basically claimed an innocent on Agar, but Apok and Fate were killed Night 2. Fate I could see, but Apok's kill was a mystery. Why would Apok get killed and not Llama? The only reason I could imagine is that he would be a potential Doc target and WIFOM. I can see a block instead of a kill on Lllama subsequent nights, but not night 2.

[WrathChild]

RE: Farside Re-Read
I really don't like the Farside lynch. I would go as far as to say it would be a very bad idea to lynch him. He has proven to be a passionate scum-hunter and I get a lot of sincerity out of his posts. Llama's case against farside is based on the assumption that his plans were foiled by someone backstage, but ignores any other possibilities.

[WrathChild]

RE: LL Re-Read
LL's productivity has dropped way off. The posts I do seem to come across town, but I don't like how often he gives us the BBS (Be-Back-Soon). Locke is a tough read for me.

[WrathChild]

Here's the way I see things laid out:

-I don't trust Llama
-I think OGML is scum
-I trust Farside
-I'm stumped on Locke

I don't like what OGML did by voting farside. Assuming OGML is scum it seems perfect to put a mislynch (based on my Farside read) at a functional L-1 (L-2 in reality), full well knowing that his scum-buddy MoI will fly in with the quick-hammer once he really reaches L-1, essentially setting up whoever functionally hammers (put at L-1) Farside for the fall tomorrow.

I want to put my weight, however little that is, behind an OGML lynch today.

VOTE: OGML

I'm still torn on the revive issue, but will make a seperate post for that.

[WrathChild]

Like I said before I think our revive options are seacore, fate, or Vezok. It appears there is no support for a seacore revive, so I will look at either Fate or Vezok.

So far our setup looks like this:
Watcher, Tracker, Commuter, SK, Scum x2 (Ythill, MoI), Vanilla x5, ??? x7.

In an 18 player game, considering the existance of an SK, I would expect 4 mafia. That makes it:
Watcher, Tracker, Commuter, SK, Scum x4 (Ythill, MoI, ???, ???), Vanilla x5, ??? x5.

IF we believe Llama that makes it:
Watcher, Tracker, Gunsmith, Commuter, SK, Scum x4 (Ythill, MoI, ???, ???), Vanilla x5, ??? x4.

Leaving us with 4 ??? slots. I'm not sure about the percentage of Vanilla roles in most games here but 1/3 seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb, making it:
Watcher, Tracker, Gunsmith, Commuter, SK, Scum x4 (Ythill, MoI, ???, ???), Vanilla x6, ??? x3.

This suggests to me that we have 3 non-vanilla roles surviving. If we consider the revive mechanic is a disadvantage to the scum team, I would consider lowering that non-vanilla number to 2.

So where am I going with this?
I think Fate is a better revive. We have to assume (though I was proven wrong last night) that confirmed town PR's will be killed at night. So if we bring back Vezok as confirmed town PR it will ensure his death the following night. That makes me think we need to revive the player that will make the biggest difference during the course of a single day. With a confirmed town fate, scum will be forced to kill him the following night. With fate-seeking bullets flying around we could ensure that some of our unknown/surviving PRs are safe.

Revive: FATE

[WrathChild]

OK, I see LMP, OGML and Lllama on Farside lynch. I only see 1 on Llama or OGML. OGML and Lllama won't budge, Farside won't budge. I'll listen to reason. I still think OGML is lynch worthy scum and we need our non-voters to take a stance. Farside is fighting to live like he is town. I've seen scum lay down and die in his shoes. Let's lynch OGML instead.

[WrathChild]

Sweet GG thanks. Care to expand?

[WrathChild]

I was just thinking back to the book and I don't remember a Poker Alice either (Saint). Apok, do you still have the pdf handy to search that?

[WrathChild]

Hahahaha at Mod-Farm FTW

I want Fate Revived, locking him in...

UNVOTE, VOTE: LL

Elect: WC

(Because I don't want waste of space scum OGML BS instead of me, this way I get a shot at least)

[WrathChild]

Hahaha.

Obvious is Obvious. We had scum backstage last night where I revealed I was 1 shot bulletproof (and pointed out my breadcrumbs and evidence). This information was relayed to Llama. The only way for scum to win is by getting me lynched. Llama is scum hoping to get me hung. So one of our "confirmed" townies is just a really good scum and I think it's GG. Even with a false-positive on me, which would ensure Llama's lynch tomorrow, the other scum is so entrenched in Townieville that losing one scum is of no concern.

Elect: Fate, Apok, Farside

I need to double check the vote count before I vote Llama.

[WrathChild]

Vote: Llama

Also, crap Apok is dead.

Elect: LMP

[WrathChild]

@Fate #1941: PLease explain how you would respond to a false-positive on you?
@Fate #1942: I just automatically put the confirmed towns in and realized my mistake. Sorry.

@All: I can't get my head around how you people thinkg OGML is town. What am I missing here?! He's been all scum all game. Because he volunteered to be sacrificed once he's OBV Town? I don't fucking get it. However, at this point it's even more obvious that Llama is scum. I know he's lying, you don't.

[WrathChild]

I'm sitting here saying that GG isn't confirmed, you agreed. Why are you asking me a question assuming GG is confirmed?

If Llamascum gets me lynched today. Kills Fate tonight. Gets lynched tomorrow. Scum kills farside. You are left with GG, LMP, and OGML, none of which are confirmed. Of those three who do you think is going to be lynched? I don't think that answer is as easy as you want it to be. Those 3 in end game give scum a damn good shot at winning.

[WrathChild]

So what's more likely? Three investigative roles vs. 5 mafia and SK or 2 investigative roles and 2 kill-evasion roles vs. 5 mafia and SK

[WrathChild]

Is Llama seioursly saying Farside is scum?

[WrathChild]

@LMP: I should NOT be off the hook. That is for certain, I totally agree. However, when llama flips scum, I think the only people that should be off the hook are Fate, Farside, and probably GG (I'm still struggling with this a little, but I think I have to accept that I was just wrong/stupid).

[WrathChild]

Llama is scum. There is no way he isn't. He's been scummy since the begining and fake cop claim is fake.

[WrathChild]

This is mangified by the fact that OMGL is a medium town read to me, and the wagon on him is really ugly looking.

Justify your Town read on OMGL. Seriously. I’ve posted in two ISO fairly clearly why I think he’s scum (ISO1 and the new bit of Cognitive Diss at ISO 16). Please explain why those reasons aren’t valid suspicions.

He reads as town?

I dont really see that much scum motivation for his play. He pushes on SGR, he defends his view and tunnel vision, and eventually is open to change and he justifies the change. There is nothing about his play that screams town, but I dont see much reason to consider him as scum, especially when you compare wagons and who are on them.

The OMGL wagon is one of the most ugly things to me, as I really dont have favorable reads of anyone on it. On someone that you are iffy on, that alone is a decent tell.

Deadline is Saturday and this is a busy week for me, no one is biting on a WC lynch, Ghost-scum is still a fine lynch.

unvote
vote 00con

You know what bugs me? Your OGML town read. I just read your ISO and you not even a single time mention anything he's done to make you think he is town. It's gut, gut, don't like it, gut. You provide no reasoning to why you think OGML is a bad lynch. His play has up until most recently has been nothing but garbage. There is absolutely no basis for such an adamant OGML town read, so much to the point that you call anyone on the OGML wagon scum.

This feels significant so much to the point that I no longer like my OGML vote.

UNVOTE

I need to read a few more things but I think I know what I'm going to do next.

Ok, caught up. A lot going on.

First:

Elect: Gaggle, OGML, and Fate

I don't know Fate but have heard a few things about him, so correct me if I'm reading him wrong, but it seems pretty damn obvious why he and OGML should be back there. I think Gaggle should stay back there as I like my read on him and the fact that he's a hydra.

Second:
We should not be sacrficing OGML. I don't mind the idea of a sacrifice today because it can give us a mid-day alignment which could help us picking a strong lynch. A confirmed Town-Tracker would definately be a plus. However, with Ythill dead scum we bought an extra day at least before LyLo. My internal debate with the Sacrifice-Revive today hinges on the issues with liking the extra lynch, but not being sure the timing is right.

Third:
@Farside: Why do you think Ythill was not Vig killed?

Fourth:
I ended yesterday on a "Not Voting" and normally don't like to, but I did see the lynch on 00icon happening as fast as it did. My last post of the day was addressing Llama's "Town-read" on OGML, which really had no basis, so I was in middle of going over Llama again and I really saw nothing indicating that he is town. So to continue what I started:

Vote: Llama

There is also apparently some sort of Backstage issue that has contributed to the building wagon on him, which I may have missed if it was already addressed.

Fifth:
I think everyone needs to reread the sacrifice mechanics. It happens in a sequence. The Ressurect happens first (on a mjority vote (8) of who to ressurect) THEN the vote to sacrifice happens, but before the Ressurected player returns. So everyone should decide if they want to Ressurect Vezo or not. Then the vote to who to sacrifice should be discussed.

This is all that has fit into my tiny brain for now. I'm sure more to come.

My apologies for the quote tower (kind of), but this is something I feel needs to be on the table going into the night (The OGML/Llama/MoI connection).

[WrathChild]

*WC Builds a statue to Fate*

Hopefully Faraday comes back and fixes chesskids vote soon. Good discussion starter guys. Anyway. LMP is no longer clear and OGML is and always has been scum. I can't believe he's been skating around this whole fucking game doing nothing and wearing an "I'm with Scum"-shirt. This doesn't bother anyone else?

Chesskid obviously has a lynch-boner for me. OGML thinks that I'm the only other player he can possibly force a mislynch on.

This is incredibly frustrating. I've been attacked hard by at least 2-confirmed scum, I've had good reads on both of the last two mislynches (and farside). I pushed for Llama AND MoI's lynches like the entire fucking game and what has OGML done?

Nothing...

NOTHING!

NOOOOTHHHHINGGG!!!!

(Hat-Tip to Zoolander).

VOTE: OGML

x1000000

[WrathChild]

When someone comes in and fast-hammers me, please lynch them tomorrow.

[WrathChild]

It's OGML, if it's not him its LMP. It's that easy. However, I never said whoever hammers me is scum, if you weren't so "confirmed" I would think its a pretty scummy thing to do to misrep me like that. I said whoever fast-hammers me is scum. I'm telling you right now. If I get lynched, you need to consider tomorrow, because it will happen. So if someone flies in here and quick-hammers me with out opening up the discussion about who could be scum tomorrow they are being anti-town. So since OGML already has his vote on me, I would suspect the only person that would quick hammer me is LMP. Right now I think it's a million times more likely OGML is scum, but LMP should get a look if he quick hammers me with out at least discussing a contingency plan with everyone else when I flip town.

Hell, I agree I should be a suspect. I'm not confirmed like some people, but neither are LMP and OGML. I CAN NOT believe how OGML is flying under the radar this whole time. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills or something. He has done absolutely nothing pro-town and many things anti-town.

[WrathChild]

FAST-Hammer, not HAMMER. LTR.

[WrathChild]

How hard is it to see past your gigantic lynch-boner for me?

I made it VERY clear I'm talking about someone ending the day too fast.

[WrathChild]

Also, Lol at the Hydra's heads falling off.

[WrathChild]

F T POV OF OMGL AND LMP
YOUR LYNCH IS GOOD YES?
SO WHY SHOULDNT THEY QUICKHAMMER YOU AS TOWN

I think you are failing again. You are lumping OGML and LMP together unneccessarily.

OGML has already voted me with no discussion. It is obvious he has no interest in seeing discussion develop today enough to the point where we actually explore the idea of tomorrow. Same with you. But you're the illogical head of a quasi-confirmed town Hydra.

LMP on the other hand may very well be town. As town he should consider the possibility that I will flip town and use today to explore that as opposed to just running up to me and kicking my head off because I'm already on my knees.

This is why LMP should NOT quickhammer me. OGML would happily quick-hammer me if he wasn't #2, but he's antitown so that's obvious.

Hey Chesskid. Do me a favor, and really do it, don't just blow me off and say you know what you're doing, really do it:

-Read OGML's ISO from start to finish and tell me if that looks like a player that has been playing for the town.

[WrathChild]

So why is it the optimal play to lynch me if you are LMP. or the optimal play for OGML to lynch me, or LMP to lynch OGML, or OGML to lynch LMP. It is all the same unless we lynch scum today, which is what I'm trying to do.

If we mislynch today we are going into tomorrow with 1 confirmed and 2 unconfirmed. These are not good odds. SO how about we count on lynching scum today instead of playing like we have a huge cushion, which we don't?

Seriously go back and read the unconfirmed players ISOs, OGML should stand out like a sore thumb.

[WrathChild]

FROM THEIR POV THE SCUM IS IN YOU OR TEH OTHER OF THEM

ANY cOMBINATION OF LYNCHES THAT IS NOT THEM WINS TOWN THE GAME
IF THEY DONT QUICKHAMMER YOU NOW THERE IS A CHANCE THAT THEY'LL GET LYNCHED TODAY
AND THAT IS BAD FROM THE TOWN POV
SO THEY LYNCH YOU

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS LOGIC

IF WE LYNCH OGML AND HE'S TOWN
WHY SHOLD I BELIEVE YOU ARE TOWN VS LMP?

You shouldn't believe I'm town. You should go back and actually read the game. I already explained why "I" think you should think I'm town. Did you just skim that too?

Here's the bottom line:

OGML is obviously the scummiest and I can't fathom how you or anyone else think he is town. So we should lynch him today. IF, and that's a big IF, he flips town. Then it will be up to you or farside to decide who between me or LMP. I see no reason in Mafia Hell why we should not lynch the player playing the scummiest right now and that player is OGML.

[WrathChild]

I do like all the zoolander references, you get cool point for those. But you're still scum.

Good Point.
(SARCASM)

[WrathChild]

I do like all the zoolander references, you get cool point for those. But you're still scum.

Good Point.
(SARCASM)

Or should I say:

"Cool Story Hansel"

[WrathChild]

I would hammer but farside was very adamant about not voting WC over OGML today, so I want to hear more about this. No reason to rush this.

Thank the Gods.

What can I do to convince you that OGML is the right lynch today?

[WrathChild]

Holy crap. This is messed up. I don't effing get this. I know I'm an easy mislynch at this point and I figure that is what scum was banking on. This just makes Zero sense.

Seriously, I'm at a complete loss right now. I have to seriously vote for one of two "confirmed" town. I'm terrified of throwing down a vote at this point.

GG, how are you more confirmed than Farside?

[WrathChild]

So the other day was a staged mis-hammer?

[WrathChild]

I'm going to wait until farside at least shows up at this point.

[WrathChild]

Eff it. The game would be over if Gaggle was scum, I know I'm not.

VOTE: Farside

[WrathChild]

I don't get it.

[WrathChild]

we're confirmed from the nothammer etc

I get that. I just didn't get what you meant by post etc, but know I guess you were referring to why you're more confirmed than Farside.

[WrathChild]

EDIT: *Now

[WrathChild]

I agree. Now Farside's going to come and vote me and you'll have to hammer someone.

[WrathChild]

Ok, just went back and re-read the last few days with Scum-Farside Goggles. One thing that stood out is how she caught the missed unvote. This is something that I would not have caught, in fact, I probably would have just phoned it in after MoI started celebrating. Also celebrating before the death post seems really dumb, like suspiciously dumb.

Now I need to think about what the scum team would gain from a fake-farm that costs them two players, just to buy townpants for one. We know MoI was dead anyway, so really this only costs them 1 player to buy one pair of townpants. Farside was on her way to be lynched, so why would LL want to replace her? LL was not particularly suspicious at the time. Let's see here. At that time there was:
-Llama (scum claimed cop)
-Apok (confirmed town watcher)
-GG
-Farside
-OGML (VT)
-LMP
-WC

So the only claimed/confirmed town power role was Apok... Now here's something that bugged me. Apok wasn't killed Night 4. There is no way confirmed town watcher should be left alive and Ooba dead instead... unless Apok possed no threat to scum. If a confirmed town watcher is not a threat, maybe scum have a ninja. Who did Farside push to ressurect? The tracker. If you have a ninja, then a tracker is no threat, just like a watcher. It would give us a false sense of safety. I'm sure the thought of confirmed town Fate would have a scum team crapping their pants over a non-threat tracker.

Soooo.... If Farside is a ninja it would explain why LL, would die for townpants for Farside, especially because at that point Llama (who LL knew was lying) was the only claimed cop and a ninja would be infinitely more beneficial than a Godfather.

[WrathChild]

GG isn't scum to the best of my knowledge. You're missing my point, I think the whole celebration was a trick to get you out of the lynch with townpants. Fake celebration.

[WrathChild]

GG: You claimed to have a role BS, was that bait or do you really have a role. If you do, do you have anything worth sharing?

[WrathChild]

Do you think if the scum team were Llama and Me and we had to bus one of us, do you really think it would have been Llama over me?
Do you think if I were scum I would have let GG (who I repeatedly complained about his lynch-boner for me) live over unconfirmed town?

[WrathChild]

That's the weirdest gambit. You fake breadcrumb counterclaim my BPness to do what? Make Farside think you were actually BP and kill LMP instead?

Wait, you are saying that LMP claimed VT backstage two nights ago? And that you tried to imply that you were BP over me (to get me hung or WIFOM Farside who you thought was scum?)? So going into last night Farside thought either you or I were BP and knew LMP was VT?

If I'm reading this right, it pretty much confirms Farside scum.

[WrathChild]

This all seems to make some sense. I'm locked in.

[WrathChild]

Seriously CK?
I am yet to be scum on this board. If this is what you're resorting to I think you have your answer. It's pretty damn obvious from where I sit, but I can see how you can't quite get it. I had no way of knowing LMP was VT, Farside had reason to believe LMP was VT while you and I could be BP. Obvious kill from his PoV, retarded kill from my PoV if I were scum.

[WrathChild]

PS I am rarely able to post on weekends so don't expect a post war from me until monday.

[WrathChild]

Haha, I can't believe I pulled that off.

I killed LMP because I thought I was in pretty deep shit and decided to do the one thing no one expected and hoped it would throw us into some deep WIFOM.

I can't believe that from Day 1 I was a top lynch candidate and managed to pull of a three-way lylo with two confirmed town. Best Scum win ever.

[WrathChild]

Yeah, town blew this, but give me some effin credit. I got confirmed town lynched in 3 way lylo.

[WrathChild]

Yeah, town blew this, but give me some effin credit. I got confirmed town lynched in 3 way lylo.

And scum should have already won.

[WrathChild]

Yeah, town blew this, but give me some effin credit. I got confirmed town lynched in 3 way lylo.

And scum should have already won.

Kind of. Not really sure how to feel about the mod error.

[WrathChild]

Tbh, I don't remember.

@MOI:

If spiting someone is your only reason for keeping the QT secret, I think we should share it just to spite you. Game is over. No reason to be obstinate.

Still waiting on opinions from the rest of the scumteam.

I don't mind if we share it.

[WrathChild]

People hold too many grudges here.

[WrathChild]

I also want to say thanks Ythill for being so hard on me Day 1. It really got me into the game. Also LL, under the radar the whole time, nice playing. MoI, I loved the 2.5 quickhammers! Llama, without your gunsmith WIFOM I think we'd have lost, nice work scum team.

One more thing:
@Gaggle (ChessKid in particular): I wanted to kill you so bad going into LyLo. I saw the Hydra as basically Dr. Jeckel (spelling?) and Mr. Hyde. CK wanted me dead so bad and Faraday at least pretended he was on the fence, so I could count on CK voting me in Lylo, but not Faraday. It was a wierd position (I even complained to Mod about the fracturing of the Hydra earlier on). Then I realized that if I killed GG it would basically be a signed confession. I thought LMP's OGML hammer was absurdly OBV Town and knew Farside was kind of siding with me earlier. So basically any kill I made I was killing OBV town IMO, so I decided to do the one thing that no one expected me to do, let Gaggle live to LyLo. I hoped it would be Far Out enough to send LyLo into a tailspin.