Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Beasts of the Sea]

Expect limited activity from me on the weekends.

OMG furcolow is in this game? I highly recommend a lynch and that all he says should be taken with an allhelping almighty help of salt.. Should any lynch be available for furcolow that he should be lynched town or scum. And i am being serious.

But because im not rude.
1) I started mafia on a site called "golivewire" with a few others. Mafiascum was mentioned and so i signed up.
2.) I play better as town.
3.) Having played a cold war game on golivewire, im going to guess that a) its USA vs. Soviets/Russians. And there is a miller in our midts. FYI its not me.

However, Lowell is also in this game and all games i have played with him as snow white he has always been scum. HI LOWELL!!

Vote Lowell

Uh oh. You detail why it is beneficial to lynch Furculow as town or scum and then you random vote someone based on flawed probabilities? I don't think so. You probably just want someone else to start the bandwagon and you can slide on later, right? Oh, and you are investigation immune scum? Got it.

RQS stage is scummy, I refuse to answer your questions. I seriously would like to see a furcolow wagon.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

All the "slips" are fabrications of peoples imaginations

I tend to agree that most of the time RQS gives some false positives on the scum meter based on people nitpicking the authenticity and town (or not town) motivation for the questions; however, do you think there is any value later in the game once there are some flips as to who was pushing whom and the "fabricated slips"?

Llamafluff - Someone sane. I like you. But i cant tell is that because of you being sane or because you seem to share the same opinion on furcolow as me. I may join a furcolow wagon but i would like to gauge lowell first.

That didn't take long.

Joining

the Furcolow wagon that she basically initiated, and still waiting to judge Lowell (who hadn't even posted yet) based on him being scum in every game she has played with him (statistical anomaly versus game related content).

Llama, what's your take on the PoisonIvy situation?

I have no good read on it yet. If I had to guess I would put her as slightly leaning town, but its a shot in the dark more then anything else. As I already said, some of the things she said I can see both town and scum saying when they get flustered. I am fully content to push other people and watch it develop.

There are other reasons justifying her being scum besides the win condition, "who is town" and "who is scum" stuff. That being said...

For me, PoisonIvy hasn't adequately accounted for the fact she thought the game was Americans vs. Soviets as opposed to a town who wants to eliminate all threats to peace which is in the pro-town win condition.

...this is also a good point.

VOTE: PoisonIvy

Other things:
1. My spidey sense says Furculow is town.
2. Ghost Writer's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.
3. smargaret is giving me town pings but that's pretty slim right now. Also, JMJ's comment "no hard feelings" earlier struck me as suspicious as well.

[Beasts of the Sea]

FoS: Beasts of the Sea

for the terrible reasons used to jump on the PoisonIvy wagon.

Are you worried about PoisonIvy getting closer to the lynch threshold or something? I am voting the person you are voting (with more substantive reasons than you), yet you don't even suggest that I might be bussing. Do you not think that PoisonIvy is scummy for outlining reasons to lynch Furcolow regardless of his alignment, doesn't vote Furcolow, was waiting for Lowell to assess Lowell's alignment (based on Lowell always being scum), and then expresses interest in sliding onto the Furcolow wagon? Or do you think your single reason of PoisonIvy subtly planting WIFOM for any investigative roles is enough to warrant her lynch by itself?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Llama 79 - I don't like this post much. Furcolow is obv town in my eyes, and even mincing words with him over trivial things (clarity of reads) doesn't sit well with me. However, LF's later post against jmj is solid.

Unvote

random day one vote.

Why did you feel the need to quantify your unvote as it being a random vote? This is just strange to me.

UNVOTE:

I'm having second thoughts about the PI wagon -- it's taken off a little too quickly for my tastes. I still think PI seems scummy, but in the past my scum reads have been pretty terrible, so I'm going to play this one by the numbers.

Furcolow is steadily becoming more and more scummy to me: the "meta" appraisal of PI, the whole RQS deal... and this.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

What?! It's WAY too early in the game to say who's a lurker and who just had a busy couple of days IRL. You're just trying to substitute a policy vote for actual scumhunting.

Scum post: 1. unvotes (inexplicably); 2. smears Furcolow; and 3. doesn't vote Furcolow?! . If PI is still scummy, but Furculow is rising, why not vote him? I don't like the unvote for obvious reasons, as PI isn't really in danger of being lynched soonish, so why the bail? Possible PI scum buddy here.

gonnano

- what do you think of Artem?

unvote
vote furcolow

i agree that his 3rd question would be more informative to scum than town, and his comment about day talking scum is bad.

This vote is terrible. Did you not think of this when you were answering the questions the first time through or is this just a bad bandwagon vote?

Furc seems to be living upto his anti-town reputation fairly well.

Fluff post.

I don't get the bit about bussing. Where does that even come from? Why should I be suggesting that you're bussing just because we're voting for the same person? ARE you bussing?

Well, you said I was suspicious for the way I joined the wagon that you are also on; so do you think I am bussing my partner PoisonIvy? Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

There's no "detail why it is beneficial to lynch Furculow". There's a blurb about policy-lynching both Fur and Lowell. Since each player has one vote only, it's natural to pick one of the two. (And for what it's worth, I've played with Lowell before and policy-lynch is not completely off-base (sorry, Lowell), though you don't necessarily have the same experience, so this is nothing more than a side-note.)

First, PoisonIvy said nothing about policy lynching Lowell, so can you show me where you got that idea? Her vote was clearly a random vote, based on the premise that Lowell has been scum in every game they have played together.

The real question is why are you singling out PoisonIvy over other players who started with policy-lynch votes? (For example, RedCoyote's vote for XScorpion) Are you focused on PI because she suggested two targets for policy-lynch instead of one, or because her wagon was the biggest, or what?

I don't see the policy behind RedCoyote's vote, but even if the policy is "can't be fooled by XScorpion again" the difference is he followed up his policy

with a vote

. PoisonIvy did not. She suggested a policy lynch and then went on a random vote. The scum motivation behind suggesting a policy lynch on Furcolow is obvious. Furc, as town, is obvious mislynch bait for obvious reasons. She was testing the waters to see if any of the other players would agree and get a bandwagon rolling for an easy lynch.

I fail to see how somebody wanting to join the wagon they initiated is a scumtell? If anything, it's putting their money where their mouth is.

The whole point is that if she felt the policy lynch was legitimate she would have voted for him immediately instead of random voting someone.

Well, I find him scummy but he's buddying me pretty hard so I'm okay not voting him for now.

Another classic post by DP. Sarcasm, but no real answer given for the original question.

@DavidParker. Question. If i was was HYPOTHETICALLY scum. I would have stuck Russians in there for what? To give the town more information? I can seriously see the scum motivation so early in the day ((sarcasm))

Why the emphasis on hypothetically? Isn't it enough saying "if I was scum"?

Xscorpion is give me the heepie jeebies by twisting everything i say. By claiming i "want" to be investigated. When what i said was that i had no qualms about being investigated if someone with the ability felt uneasy about my presence. It is not a INVESTIGATAE ME NOW. But the individuals choice.

Again, isn't it already the individuals choice to investigate you without inviting it?

Beasts of the sea just drop kicks into my wagon without any analysis of ANY of the other players. He does address EGL and Llama but does not question POINT BLANK, if my wagon is scum motivated and builds on other players thoughts to vote me without giving any real insight of his own.

I provided plenty of my own insight as to why I think

you

are scum, and I notice you didn't respond to any of it. Why would I question if your wagon is scum motivated if I think you are scum?

[Beasts of the Sea]

(And for what it's worth, if you're scum, I think option #2 is more likely than #4, because your posts just don't read like bussing. Though at the moment, I still rank PI as more suspicious than you, hence a vote on her and a FoS on you.)

What is this nonsense? So what you're essentially saying is that the person you're voting for is town, and the person you're FoSing is scum, and is voting for the townie that you're also voting for?

If you read the section immediately following my unvote, and the later post where I explain it some more, maybe it will seem less inexplicable to you. The reason that I initially voted for PI but haven't voted Furcolow is that most of the things I've seen from him are anti-town, whereas PI's posts seem scummy. Anti-town is bad, but it takes a whole lot of anti-townness to deserve a vote.

Backpedaling already? In the quote above you make it quite obvious that there is a clear distinction between PoisonIvy being "scummy", but Furcolow only being "anti-town". But before, you said nothing of the sort. HUGE difference. In fact, before you said clearly that Furcolow was becoming increasingly scummy. Nowhere in your observations of Furcolow did you say "anti-town" and your explanation that you cited only came after you were called out for it. If the PoisonIvy lynch falls through you will eat rope. If PoisonIvy does go through; you eat rope tomorrow.

Sathoris 203 - I brought up your explanation of your unvote of you random day one vote because I don't recall seeing that done before. I just said it was interesting, but your reaction seems a little ultra responsive. Do you think trivial remarks are scummy? Have you seen any other trivial remarks in the game or do you only comment on the ones that have your name in them? As for the Furcolow read, I don't feel I need to explain anymore. I've seen enough of his games to have a strong town read and the entire 24 hours of talking before the game pretty much clears him in my eyes; plus the fact that scummy people keep trying to lynch him helps my read considerably.

The only reason I'm not voting you [PoisonIvy] is that I'm not comfortable with the vote count that high at this point in the game.

Why not? Scum should be lynched before she has time to weasel her way out of it or her partners have a chance to frame someone else. And now that she is down to seven votes do you feel more comfortable voting now?

Oh, yes, I'm scum who someone avoided both wagons, hasn't voted anyone, and has effectively done nothing visible to anyone else. Because that makes complete and utter sense. After all, it's not like either of these wagons have a decent chance of going through to a lynch, right? Oh, and save the WIFOM bullshit defense anyone tries to play. This is common sense. It'd be the dumbest thing to do as scum. And I'm not a dumb player.

So you haven't voted; you have avoided commenting on both major wagons, and have effectively done nothing visible to anyone else. That is town behavior how? And saying "save the WIFOM bullshit" doesn't negate the fact that it is WIFOM.

Hey guise! lets just hang me and the rest of ye guise can have fun disecting my farce of a wagon.

Ya know, actual substance. What people are doing are hanging back and delaying the inevitable.

Ive given my thoughts and opinions and as it is not good enough and i am the only wagon with so many "haters" then by all accounts my flipping should shed light on many varies of peoples.

You still have not responded to my reasons for voting you in the first place.

I don't see how the PI or Furc wagons are "bad". More VC analysis for later is always good, and these people are being voted for being legitimately scummy; especially PI I feel.

The one thing I like is bringing up Rat's post.

With only one on your list I agree with...

unvote, Vote: pappums rat

You believe that the one comment of pappums rat overrides the "legitimately scummy" wagons? Is there more to the pappums rat case that you feel warrants a vote over the two other people you agree with their wagons?

[Beasts of the Sea]

@People voting Rat: What do you think about the speed of the wagon you're on?

I'm a little shocked at the amount of focus time wagon speed is getting in this game, especially considering at the time of this post pappums rat has a sum total of five votes. Unless you think a good number of scum (which would be suicide) are fueling this wagon then what is the point?

Backpedaling already? In the quote above you make it quite obvious that there is a clear distinction between PoisonIvy being "scummy", but Furcolow only being "anti-town". But before, you said nothing of the sort. HUGE difference. In fact, before you said clearly that Furcolow was becoming increasingly scummy. Nowhere in your observations of Furcolow did you say "anti-town" and your explanation that you cited only came after you were called out for it. If the PoisonIvy lynch falls through you will eat rope. If PoisonIvy does go through; you eat rope tomorrow.

"becoming increasingly scummy" is not the same as "Furcolow is scum". I am of the opinion that if someone does enough anti-town stuff, it contributes somewhat to the possibility of them being scum. Furcolow may tend to be anti-town regardless of alignment, but I think it's reasonable to say that as scum a player would exploit their meta to get by with as much anti-town behavior as possible. Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.
To recap: becoming and being are two different things.

Unless you have positively identified his VI play as specifically scum VI play, you are completely wrong. Saying "increasingly scummy" suggests his behavior has more scum motivation than before. But that's not what you said before. You are backpedaling.

You also say he is exploiting his anti-town meta; can you provide an example of where he does this?

I don't particularly object to a ThAdmiral wagon right now, but I'd like to see what exactly people are finding so scummy about him before I buy in. What vague posts or hints at inside information has he made?

And now that I've mentioned it, this is an extremely scummy quote. You wouldn't mind a wagon on him, even though you don't know why he's scummy? This looks exactly like scum waiting for a reason to get someone lynched.

This.

I would feel more comfortable voting PI now, except GW made himself look scummier and I only have one vote. It was more the speed than the votecount, and the fact that there were people who hadn't posted at all.

When PoisonIvy flips scum here is another potential scum pal. Giving support to PoisonIvy when the wagon is fizzling out.

I like it when wagons are formed on players who haven't really been pressured yet. So I didn't have any objection to the Thad wagon. While I was in favor of the pressure, though, I wasn't very clear on the reasoning behind the wagon -- if there was any. Again, I didn't put down a vote -- this time because not having a clear cause is an attribute that I'm not fond of in wagons.

You like pressure wagons but you don't like to participate on them?

Scott's 301 on LynchMePlz seems nit picky and a poorly reasoned opportunistic vote.

I echo XScorpion's sentiment about PoisonIvy still being alive (and the wagon dissipating the way it did). I'm looking forward to her coming back and reminding us all why she should be lynched.

RedCoyote - I think my PoisonIvy vote still speaks for itself since PoisonIvy has not even responded to my original suspicion of her and she hasn't posted since the last time I asked her to respond to my accusations. The only people I would considering switching votes to at this point is Artem and gonnano.

[Beasts of the Sea]

I am back from V/LA and reading. Sorry about my unexplained absence, I did not have time to announce it.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Really sorry again about my absence. I've had some connection issues since my V/LA was over but will be all caught up tomorrow with a sizable post.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Reading what I missed it taking longer than expected. This is the first chunk.

This is a valid point. If PI had been quick lynched I wouldn't have been upset about it. A good lynch because of the way he played, and then more info from night actions.

He's survived now, so we may as well use our time to pursue other endeavors, but I'm always keen to re-push PI's wagon.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, DavidParker.

BotS: Vote does not necessarily equal lynch. I would like there to be a certain amount of pressure on Ivy, and I thought at the point I voted for GW that the pressure on her was adequate for the situation. I saw how she reacted to the wagon. I'd like there to be a little more pressure on her at the moment, because I'm not sure whether her reaction was frustrated town or scum. However, GW has actually done things I see to be definitively scummy, so he gets my vote. Also, I was answering a question about how I felt about the Ivy wagon at that point in time - not pushing to restart the wagon. There's a difference, and implying that there isn't is misrep.

Same to you. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You felt that PoisonIvy needed more pressure but didn't want to "restart" the wagon or apply a vote yourself.

Llama - what do you think of smargaret and her pushing on PoisonIvy but not voting? (Similar to your accusation of gonnano)

Really? Are you really arguing that I don't know what connotation I associate with the term "becoming increasingly scummy"? When I originally said it, I thought it was obvious that I didn't yet consider Furcolow scum (hence no vote), but that he was heading that way quickly. I found that wasn't the case when I saw that some people had interpreted it differently, but I really can't see why this is still an issue after I explained it once.

I'll repeat: Increasingly scummy means more than VI behavior. You are implicitly saying that Furcolow is exhibiting behavior which is more scum motivated.

This. I'd consider switching to gonnano, but my hunch is that PI is a godfather, so....

This. A thousand times this. PoisonIvy blatantly asked to be investigated and then defended the claim by saying she "no qualms about being investigated if someone deems me worthy of it," which doesn't even need to be said because that is what cops do. Cops investigate people they deem worthy of being investigated. It's a terrible explanation and an obvious "please investigate me because your result will be innocent."

3. Well, no, I still like PI's wagon. The problem is that PI gave up on playing and ideally I'd like to see a replacement before it's pushed further. (Basically, for the same sentiment other players mentioned: you can't judge the reactions with the player not playing.)

Scum godfathers should be lynched regardless of anything, replacement or otherwise.

jmj wagon is a go people. Lots of people are all basically nodding in agreement, without actually voting.

Cue 3 votes in less than two hours after this post. Something's up.

While jmj's being odd and I see the reasoning behind the wagon

, it's a bit of a stretch IMO - I'll chalk it up to his playstyle. The wagon speed is too iffy for me and I don't like GW and smarg being on that wagon, either.

What do you think is up? Do you think three scum partners are trying to initiate this bandwagon or something? Please elaborate on the bolded comment because in the context of your entire post it makes no sense.

So far, I could see myself potentially voting PI, Jmj, or Thad (in order of preference) if the deadline was getting close.

And yet you are voting none of these people.

Personally I feel ThAd is town and those pushing his wagon are trying to save scum-jmj at this point. Just my gut.

Give me the summation of why you think jmj3000 is scum.

[Beasts of the Sea]

A few more pages down.

I do have a question for you though - if Thad flips town, then what's your opinion on gonnano? Isn't it still possible he's scum?

Of course its still possible.

I typically don't like discussing hypothetical situations based on unflipped people, but this response got me interested. Of course anything is possible, but do you think it is likely?

@Everyone else: Can you give any reason why Furcolow should not be lynched after all this?

Because he is town. I've read enough games with him in them to know. Self preservation is his MO as town, so that portion of you case is null.

^^ Top two outlined solid cases in a way that really came off as town to me. LF, on the other hand, shut down discussion in a strange way, but he shut down discussion on PI, and as I KNOW "I" am town, there is no possible scumtell in this for me. Scum simply would not do that.

Your top three top reads are based on two of them building a case on your slot and the other one for shutting down case building on your player slot?

I have heard of buddying, but why on earth would scum townbuddy to someone who is the top candidate for lynching?

Scum town-buddying a good lynch candidate, if done well, is gold for them because he didn't contribute to the lynch and looks like he was supporting the person getting lynched.

My character was someone I might expect to see on scumside, but he's town.

When you said this were you thinking about General McArthur or McCarthy?

Anyway, you have a point in that a ThAd flip would most likely yield nice results both from his flip itself as well as from analysis. And my Jmj vote doesn't do much if Jmj isn't really here. Other than that, the case against ThAd is a good one, and his defense wasn't such as to deter me enough from his wagon. My hesitation to get on it was his (to me, it seemed) tunneling of me. It tends to be a townie move when someone tunnels. Also, inb4 someone screams OMGUS.

Unvote

VOTE: ThAd

Bah for the "benefits of lynching someone even if they flip town" justification for voting. Plus the preemptive "this is OMGUS and I said it first so it does not matter" and the weak "I'm trying to be original" jump on the wagon.

Her posts read as calm and collected while under pressure, kind of similar to her predecessor. She's reading as town to me.

Calm and collected is not a town tell.

Why is ThAd still alive?

Who are you?

Anyways, fuck it. I'm tired of waiting for content from jmj, he's a nullread right now anyways, and I don't care if a newer high scumread of mine is pushing the wagon.

Vote: jmj

Give content or replace out.

I have had it up to here with everyone voting for people who are not their top suspects or most likely scum reads. It is batshit crazy. And we wonder why there are 11 different "wagons." It's pretty obvious that one vote wonder wagons are not achieving anything... AT ALL. Let me suggest something crazy: vote for scum.

Also, regarding the last comment in the quote: what do you think of EGL?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Oh God Nachomamma is probably scum. Because he called me probably scum. The nacho I know would have just called me scum, not "probably scum". That doesn't sit right with me. Sitting up a scum-read on me to use later.

Terribly justified OMGUS commentary without the OMGUS vote.

I am General McArthur. I silence one player during the night and they can't vote next day. I'm US. I am town.

I have never seen a town role that prevents voting.

I want to vote for you based on the fact I was meant to be voting you earlier. That's where I wanted my vote to be so I'm putting it where it was intended to be. Right now, I'm thinking over your claim and will post a response to it in due time. I don't see how the role you described couldn't be a scum role, so that makes me wary of you. Especially since you nameclaimed "General", ie: someone affiliated with the war efforts. I can quite likely see your character being scum even if the rest of your claim is true.

This is a terribly scummy post.

The posts exchange at the bottom of page 32 between Arum and gonnano read as soft distancing between two buddies.

Do you blame me, BotS? What do I have besides my mind and my vote? an extra life?

Blame you for what? I don't blame you for anything and don't even recall mentioning you anywhere in my last post.

I don't mind furc being silenced because his play in the last game we were both in caused a town loss. >:|

Regardless of your feelings, silencing him tomorrow will most likely not have an impact on winning/losing the game tomorrow.

I forgot that Furc didn't full claim, so my top two choices for silencing are Furc and smarg.

If you are town why are you discussing your night action target? Do you know that the scum don't have a RBer or are you confident that he won't RB you?

Either choose to believe me or not.

I choose not.

@smarge: You realize amrun was governor'd. (apparently, hasn't been proven yet). So he can't be the lynch for today it seems.

For now, let's just test the governor theory.

ITT DavidParker continues to not pay attention.

For everyone who didn't notice:

Amrum has not been governered, and llama is to be killed asap. Put votes back on amrum.

The correct play is to lynch the scum that got to L-1 and then debate Llama's move tomorrow post flip. It is boggling my mind how Llama's move derailed the wagon on obvscum Arum as it did. Nothing changed from pre "govern" to post "govern" in terms of Arum being scum. Nothing.

I've forgotten or missed it, but where did all this miller info come from? Did PI/Arum say she knew there was a miller?

Nevermind; saw the conversation about the "miller in our midst". Was it ever confirmed outside this statement that PI knew there was a miller in the game? Sounds like a misinformation breadcrumb to attempt to avoid getting investigated ("I'm so town because I want to get investigated") and then when she did she comes back with "oooohh... I breadcrumbed Miller". Or if she is Godfather then misinformation to mess with any investigation results later on.

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Furcolow actually made sense when he suggested that McCarthy could potentially be a miller. It's the only way that I can see for Amrun's flavor to be reconciled with his townie reaction to being lynched.

Then why would PI ask to be investigated? You and your scumbuddy Arum are mixing up what you have said to justify her being town.

This is absolute madness.

Arum is the lynch for today.

On what planet does a vote silencer appear on the town roster? What benefit does it give town at any portion of the game?

Scum: Arum, gonnano, DavidParker

Okay, I'm all caught up now, and apologize again for the time it took me to do so. Expect more frequent posting.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Holy crap!! Three dead?!

So your team killed LlamaFluff or RedCoyote? Good to know.

THIS MEANS THAT ALL THOSE LAZY VOTES (yes im looking at everyone who has voted today) NEED TO STOP.

Lazy votes? With no suggestion as to where to place "diligent votes"?

More scum team bickering in 1195 - 1197.

OK, I lied.
I'm not a veteran. Can you imagine why I would fakeclaim that? I'm so mad right now. Do you all want me to claim? I don't believe it is in the best interest of the town for me to really claim. The person I claimed is truth, but the role is not. My alignment is town.

A veteran? You never said you were a veteran to begin with. He obviously has some sort of information about a veteran and that relationship to being bulletproof and is claiming he is now not bulletproof, so where did the veteran comment stem from? Town rarely has any good reason to lie, so it is time for a full claim.

VOTE: Furcolow

[Beasts of the Sea]

@BoS: Where did my post imply that at all? Also, how would you even infer that? Llama was my biggest supporter. If I was on a scum team, how do you imagine we would come to the conclusion to kill him?

Furcolow actually DID say he was a veteran, by the way.

My apologies. I deleted the wrong part of the quote. It should have been this:

What does "removed from the bunker" mean?

Anyways. Fucolow must have spelled it differently the first time around because I used the search for "veteran" and didn't find it.

I disagree. Llama dropped hints that he had a Vig shot. If you were a Vig and had a feeling that somebody was dropping breadcrumbs for a later fakeclaim of your role, wouldn't you shoot them?

Not if I was an odd-night vig. Odds are there is probably an even-night vig as well. Dropping vig tells isn't really a good reason (as the sole reason) to shoot someone as vig when you are alternating nights.

I'm soviet, basically, from Azerbaijan or whatever. My guy was friends with the Democracy in Russia, so he is on the good side, if one so exists.

Neutral role, then? Are you a survivor?

Regardless of Amrun being RBed or not, the role ability is inherently not a town ability. She is still scum.

So Fucolow is the neutral survivor or something along those lines. He needs to die sometime but I am willing to let him slide another day.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amrun

[Beasts of the Sea]

And yet the Che Guevara Roleblocker was town.

Flavor arguments are bad at this point. If you're going to vote for, build a case based on my gameplay.

I'm not arguing flavor. I'm stating the fact that vote removers are scum roles period. It has nothing to do with your name or anything flavor oriented. Town roleblockers are not common but not unheard of either.

[Beasts of the Sea]

I don't like Artem's clarification follow up post 1214. It is such a minor thing to clarify with a completely ridiculous suggestion (mass claiming) that the only reason he would want to clarify that is to cover his bases.

Town silencers are also not unheard of.

Can you like to a couple past games please?

Ever heard of "How does a scummy vig prove himself town to the rest?" ("He shoots himself") I believe the same holds in multi-vig scenarios. If somebody is (soft-)claiming a vig and is being scummy, as a vig you can prove their alignment to the town, just like you would prove yours. RC is an experienced player, so I can easily see him playing this strat.

But the whole point is that RedCoyote was an alternate night vig. Before vigging someone who soft claimed vig you would have to be pretty gutsy or really sold on a scum read to not even consider that the person is the other alternate night vig.

I agree with DP comments being scummy. In addition, he seems to be playing up this "role related information" while before it was just observation about the way something was phrased in his role pm by comparison.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DavidParker

[Beasts of the Sea]

Stephoscope is making me really nervous, here. Day 1 was all active lurking and fluff posting; Day 2 has been all rolefishing. Read his ISO - he only has six posts that aren't one-liners, and most of those are two-liners. If he's scum, he's dangerous scum.

How is a fluff poster role fishing person "dangerous"? She's not doing herself any favors on scoring town points and drawing at least a little heat...

Also some of Furc's play has been consistent with a doctor.

How so?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Gut + Silencer claim being something I haven't ever seen as town. I actually missed it yesterday.. I don't know how...

Also, considering the replaced had a huge wagon on them d1 that got stuck

There is plenty more to it than that. She asked to be investigated and then said she only said that so investigative roles would know that it was okay to investigate her (which is obviously their choice to begin with) unless of course she was a town PGO where she wouldn't want to be targetted; but that is going in the other direction. Read my ISO, I've built a pretty solid case against her over the course of D1; but for some reason she is getting a pass still.

BotS: The fluffposting doesn't make a difference to how potentially dangerous the rolefishing is; inactivity in thread and in a scum qt don't necessarily go hand in hand. Scum have to do more than stay alive, and given how few people are willing to consider my post, the amount of heat she's drawing for it is negligible.

What is the relationship between this discussion and scum being inactive in their QT? Do scum have daytalking so we can make this comparison?

Vote:Amrun

Yes. Finally some fresh support. Let's steam roll this scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amrun

[Beasts of the Sea]

Feysal is likely town. Sathoris, you're overlooking that we found the scum in the first seven on the Amrun wagon - it was VPB.

Found

the

scum in the first seven? Oversimplifying the bandwagon analysis to save yourself, I see.

No.

VOTE: smargaret

[Beasts of the Sea]

Unless the neighbor is willing to come forward the claim is unsubstantiated. Even then, there is no reason that the claim should warrant unvoting. Even if the claim is true that does not make her town. The scummy behavior still exists and deserves to be lynched. So the real question is what the real reason behind bvoigt, Stephosccope, and ThAdmiral unvoting since the neighbor claim does nothing to indicate alignment.

I have two job interviews (one out of state) next week so

V/LA until Wednesday (maybe Thursday)

. I will try and post again before I leave but might not have time due to a presentation I have to prepare.

[Beasts of the Sea]

@Steph: Why do you say I'm "probably scum?"

I explained toward the beginning of the game why I found you suspicious. If you were scum then, you are still scum now.

Has anything happened to strengthen you read? This is a terrible comment because it is referencing someone's level of scumminess based only on early evidence and applying that early evidence as a constant throughout the game. I bet if one flips scum the other is, too. Stephoscope is clearly trying to establish that she has been advocating for bvoit's lynch all game, while the original case is very unconvincing:

Reading him in iso, I find it pretty likely that he is scum. I don't like all the little suggestions that he is town.

Reading him in iso makes me think he's trying to hard to be seen as a verified townie. And I don't like how he's completely ignored my vote.

This is the "case" that indicates that bvoigt is scum forever and ever??? From the seventh day of the game no less. I think we might have found two scum buddies. I'm going to have to think about this a little and read a few more things. I might be changing my vote shortly.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Ummm scum probably does remain scum forever and ever in this game. I'm not going to build more case on bvoigt based on later things that I don't really think are tells; that would be tunneling. In face I will go so far as to admit that he and I have advocated several of the same positions (Bunnylover's lynch; nachomamma claiming; unvoting smargaret). But I did get mega scum vibes from him in those first few posts, I still trust my gut, and my gut says he is scum. It can absolutely be expected that if he was pegged as scum early on, even if a bandwagon didn't start up, he'd be extra careful going forwards.

So you think your D1 (seven RL days) reads are that strong? They couldn't possibly be wrong because of day one being day one? I'll restate your "case posts" again since I find them very unconvincing, at least to the degree of "mega scum vibes":

Reading him in iso, I find it pretty likely that he is scum. I don't like all the little suggestions that he is town.

Reading him in iso makes me think he's trying to hard to be seen as a verified townie. And I don't like how he's completely ignored my vote.

That is solid enough to make someone scum for life?

Couple all that with this comment:

Smarg today, bvoigt tomorrow - let's do this.

Does your plan change depending on how smargaret flips?

Why are you weighing out how someone is going to be viewed after someone else flips? Especially if that person is someone you have a "mega scum vibe" on? Shouldn't you instead be advocating for bvoigt's lynch first instead of figuring out if someone else's read is going to change on your "mega scum vibe"? This looks to me to be like you are weighing out lynching someone not on your team and gauging how that lynch is going to affect your partner's standing tomorrow.

Stephoscope

- what did you think of Artem/VP before he died?

[Beasts of the Sea]

I am Janos Kadar, Hungarian Watcher

Results?

[Beasts of the Sea]

What is the town benefit to you knowing who the vig is? What made you change your philosophy in looking for scum to looking for a vig?

UNVOTE:

I'm having second thoughts about the PI wagon -- it's taken off a little too quickly for my tastes. I still think PI seems scummy, but in the past my scum reads have been pretty terrible, so I'm going to play this one by the numbers.

Furcolow is steadily becoming more and more scummy to me: the "meta" appraisal of PI, the whole RQS deal... and this.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

What?! It's WAY too early in the game to say who's a lurker and who just had a busy couple of days IRL. You're just trying to substitute a policy vote for actual scumhunting.

Scum post: 1. unvotes (inexplicably); 2. smears Furcolow; and 3. doesn't vote Furcolow?! . If PI is still scummy, but Furculow is rising, why not vote him? I don't like the unvote for obvious reasons, as PI isn't really in danger of being lynched soonish, so why the bail? Possible PI scum buddy here.

gonnano

- what do you think of Artem?

I'll have to go back and look to be sure of the context (I can't remember the details off the top of my head), but I'm pretty sure I was asking gonnano his opinions on Artem because I think he was pushing something on someone where Artem was displaying the same behavior and not pushing on him. Now with Artem's flip, and if my memory serves me well, it is likely that it was distancing.

This is my intent to hammer and will do so tonight once I reread that portion of the game today.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Yeah, might as well get this done while Sotty is on during the day. No need to wait as the connection I was going to go back and look for will be revealed either way upon flip. Although I was looking forward to seeing gonnano squirm a little more answering my previous questions.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gonnano

[Beasts of the Sea]

this wagon has had the amount of opposition I would expect from the 3 man team if Fonz is Gonnano's ally and is distancing

I'm going to keep my vote here, and hope that the 3 man team gets knocked down to 2 here and the Fonz is outted associatively through not wanting to place his vote on Gonnano even if he doesn't really believe the claim in his #1792

If I move my vote to Smarg, or try to start a wagon on EGL who I feel are part of the other team, I might move my vote back to Gonnano though depending on how he answers questioning over his N2 watch, because it is better to focus on one scum at a time instead of trying to vainly handpick teams for us as a town.

I did pick up my game near the end of that period, before VPB died, as I was reinvigorated by the people replacing in. If Gonnano reiterates this point in his own words I will probably back off of him. Let's see if he's scum skimming.

It's of note that Fonz is taking over the town and pushing them against me/protecting Gonnano, though so I could argue both sides of the coin.

I would also be happy with a wagon on him, as he has been scumandeering

I'm not SURE of them, so I'd be willing to lynch from what I feel is the other team. What I mean to say is I'll settle for scum-EGL who is associatively scum with smarg who I'm going to vote if a wagon advances.

With gonnano's flip I think Furcolow hit the nail on the head (bolded emphasis mine).

To those advocating 'Bvoight and Gonnano' as suspects- would the alignment of either influence your view of the other? IE, do you think their interactions look scumbuddyish, or do you think each is a top suspect independent of the other?

Personally, Gonnano doesn't look that scummy. But Bvoight doesn't look scummy at all to me.

Fishing for relationships on people you don't find scummy? This is clearly trying to determine how to maneuver to benefit his and gonnano's team in the event that it heads that direction (collateral damage?).

Then, 1737 - 1739, his three posts are all just really slandering Furcolow based on past games, and the third comment is just trying to add icing on the cake to cement it as a legitimate alternative to the gonnano wagon.

-

Why the hell is PI/PI's Replacement still alive? Scumsliped on like page three... "I wouldn't mind being investigated" just reeks of a godfather or investi-immune scum bragging.

Other people I dislike so far (as of page 19)

-His comments on the ThAd wagon early are rediculous. he vocally supports it though he isn't really sure why. This reeks of someone who is paving his way onto a possible misslynch. "I support it and may vote later, but why is he scum?"
In his 318 He says lowell should flip before GW. Lowell flip at this point will give us no info what so ever. If you are looking for an associative tell, why seek one from lowell, who hasn't really pushed or pulled any players. How would Lowell give us insight into GW.
his 356: discredits llama's argument against him. His response to the post is flimsy and made up of mostly "lolwhatever"s.

I don't like the fact that there was a lot of verbal support for this wagon but little to no voting done.

I would like to see gonnano flip above any of the top lynch candidates at this point but in the interest of deadlines (though I think we still have a week or so?) I am going to be voting PI/Amrun unless there is something in the next 8 pages to convince me otherwise.

Mothrax also advocates for his desire to see gonnano's flip above all else with no other commentary about the player slot otherwise, and this comment shortly after having declared confusion over Amrun/PI still being alive. Then mothrax said in the interest of deadlines he would be voting Amrun/PI...

Obvious scum connections are obvious.

VOTE: The Fonz

EGL and Stephoscope are good alternatives at this point.

[Beasts of the Sea]

I've been really sick. Sorry for absence. I'll be caught up tomorrow.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Things to note after the flip:

Artem (i.e. vp baltar) and gonnano were both on mothrax/jmj (i.e. fonz) day 1. It is therefore unlikely fonz was on the same team as them.

The last two votes on the bunnylover lynch were gonnano and then egl. It is therefore unlikely EGL was on the same team as gonnano.

I can see the logic behind the first two statements since jmj/mothrax was getting to the threshold of being a viable counter wagon; but the second comment I don't think is sound because it falls into the WIFOM category. I haven't really seen actual suspicion cast in other games based (especially D1) for end of the wagon relationships.

Yeah, this is a great point, apart from it being utterly untrue. I made my vote for Furc when there was only one vote on Gonnano, and six on smargaret. The idea that I pushed Furcolow 'to save Gonnano' does not jibe with even a cursory reading of the game.

You are over simplifying the situation by only looking at the snapshot of when you first voted Furcolow. Even when gonnano's wagon was building you did not comment on it other than saying you didn't think gonnano was scum. Then you kept pushing at Furcolow for other game related reasons as to build more of a case even though his previous play has nothing to do with the reasons you were currently voting Fucolow (he lied repeatedly). What was the point of bringing up hammer claimed cops and talking about ongoing games other than to smear him? And the point about others meta defending him is disingenuous as well because I read the "meta defending" as not look at these specific behaviors in comparison with other games but rather the overall playstyle, erratic behavior, and unpredictability and not the emulation of the same things from previous games.

Finally, note that Gon flipped goon, not scum watcher, so a buddy would have known he didn't have real results to save him. Do you really think a buddy of Gonnano's there wouldn't have realized that he was going down, hard?

You make an interesting point about gonnano not flipping his claimed role. Do you think one of his partners is a watcher and he claimed those results or was he going for complete BS in hopes he was correct in nobody visiting the people he claimed? To answer your question what would the scum buddy do at the point, knowing he was claiming something false? The partner could:

• Call him a liar and say he's lying about his role;
  
• Hammer him without the claimed results, knowing whatever results he made were either totally fake or actual results from another team member;
  
• Avoid the thread and see what happens; or,
  
• Stall a little bit, be wishy washy on whether or not his real or not and hope that people wouldn't want to hammer a claimed watcher.

What does the fake claim of gonnano's have to do with gonnano's partner(s) knowing he is going down hard? Gonnano was going down hard regardless of his claim being real or not, which is obvious by the fact that his claim did relatively nothing to deter his wagon.

Or, you know, blatantly obviously genuine scumhunting. When lots of people say 'Bvoight today, Gonnano tomorrow' there can be several things behind it. They can genuinely think they're scum and connected to each other. They can think they are both scum, but completely unconnected. And, in particular,

they can be Gonnano buddies who are claiming to think Gonnano is scum with links to Bvoight, but looking to use a Bvoight town flip as an excuse to stop bussing their buddy

. I was suspicious of people making these kind of statements because I had a town read on bvoight, therefore either the latter scenario or lining up lynches were both possible motivations for those making those kind of comments. I wanted to pin these players down.

You actually had a town read on both, so in that context where and how were you scumhunting with that line of questioning? The bolded is exactly what I believe you to have been doing. You were determining the public opinion of those two to figure out the best way to push it through. Maybe I have it backwards and you and bvoit are partners, but asking for the suspicion level of the pair when both of them are town (in your opinion) is scummy because you should have been advocating for them being town instead.

^^How do you know the size of the scum team? In other words:

If we can't decide, we could always just lynch PeregrineV and bring that scumteam to 1 person

How do you know this is true?

Why are you just now bringing this up? The discussion and assumption that the scum teams have four people has been going on since at least yesterday.

I actually just found a flaw in my own reasoning about Feysal. If you're interested, ask me about it.

I'm interested. Please explain.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Sorry everyone for being prodded again. Work and real life stuff is consuming my time. I should have a post up tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

[Beasts of the Sea]

Incidentally, I never said I didn't think Gonnano was scum. I had a neutral-ish, mildly scummy read on him, but thought others were much scummier and that the case on him was overblown. I said I thought Bvoight was explicitly town.

I read "gonnano isn't that scummy" as "he's not worth pushing a lynch on" and "he's not as scummy as everyone else thinks" and "he's pretty much not scum".

No, I'm not. You contended that I was pushing Furc to save Gonnano. I was using the exact same arguments to push Furc when Gonnano was at threat as when Smargaret was at threat. The Gonnano wagon was available when I voted Furc first, but I preferred the Furcwagon. To my mind, when you accuse someone of 'pushing X to save Y' it implies that saving Y is the major motivation behind your push of X. And that doesn't make any sense since I was pushing Furc with the exact same line of reasoning I was before Gonnano was in danger.

To point out that I am well aware of Furc's rep for idiocy and erratic play, and that that wasn't why I was voting him: specifically, that I felt his play in this game was specifically scummy even taking into account my meta knowledge of him

, because a) Despite all the stupid things I'd seen him do, lying as town wasn't one of them and b) his lies in this game seemed particularly survival-orientated and therefore scummy: claiming BP has obvious motive for scum wanting to avoid potential rival scum's nightkills, and claiming doctor when caught out seems designed to avoid getting lynched, and c) he didn't change his claim spontaneously, as you might expect someone just being erratic to do; he changed it in response to being caught in a lie, which is what you'd expect scum to do.

I think your are going out of your way to interpret your previous posts incorrectly. Your post here barely assigns motive only to his behavior being isolated to this game because you said "but this behavior is bad even for him". And that doesn't make any sense with your afterthought here.

The former is only really possible if LMP is his partner and decided that he was going down despite the claim so he might as well get some town cred. If the scum had actual watching results and LMP wasn't his partner, he wouldn't have got caught out on his claim.

You are downplaying the situation considerably. If gonnano wasn't lynched and was a claimed watcher how long do you really think he would have survived until endgame and never been revealed?

Claiming BS results and hoping no-one counterclaims them is incredibly risky relative to claiming actual watching results.

Which is why I asked you if you thought he was on a scum team with an actual watcher. Do you think that is the case or not?

I didn't claim a town read on both. The more town of the two imho (Bvoight) was the one people were trying to lynch first. The bolded doesn't even make sense. You think I'm scum with Gonnano, and was trying to use the 'Well bvoight was town so now I don' suspect Gonnano no more' kind of argument argument when I made quite clear I THOUGHT BVOIGHT WAS TOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE, and therefore never bought into any kind of 'Bvoight and Gonnano' theory?

I started looking at you more closely when I was reading back over gonnano, but as I said it isn't out of the realm of possibility that you may be scum with bvoit. In either situation you determining which order others find them scummy is scummy because you should have been advocating for your solid town read and the person who "isn't that scummy" to not be lynched; not weigh out the order in which people would like to lynch them.

N3:

First post

: I had posted that I thought he was clear (because of gonnano's pushing for his id). He disagrees, saying that he could have told his partners not to recognize him. He reveals a crumb from a power role - why were you looking? Fonz is town. EGL is scum and should be lynched,

unless we want to make him play for us

. Asks about informative roles. - WIFOM, pr hunting x2, then he disappears.

What does the bolded mean?

Regarding this whole neighbor thing I think (obviously) the the most condemning thing is that Feysal is claiming one nationality and has a mod confirmed (via smargaret) different nationality. I'd like to hear what Feysal's response to this is because it seems pretty bizarre but lying about faction is pretty clear cut; and as much as it pains me to say this, I agree with The Fonz that something seems a little fishy. I'm having a hard time swallowing smargaret's claim and interpretation at face value since she was so high on my scum list yesterday but I don't see the benefit to her setting up her neighbor to go down (especially when she was under no pressure) unless she they are both on opposing scum teams and she is on the bigger one and has information on Feysal and he must die... That is absurd though, and even by conspiracy theory standards is pretty bad. The other thing that is bothering me is why Feysalscum would point out PR crumbs to someone not on his scum team? What benefit did he get from that being scum?

Feysal and smargaret - did you guys ever discuss your own suspicions of each other? smarg - was there anything else to your vote on your neighbor besides what you said in 256?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Lowell looks even more town to me now. He showed the courage of his convictions. In keeping with what was said yesterday, I really don't hold that mislynch against anyone on the wagon (especially since two scum on the wagon died overnight). I'd have been on it had I got online, I think. The way Smargaret described the situation, it was a no-brainer to vote Feysal: you can't just ignore someone claiming to have role-related information on someone that makes them 100% scum, so yes, I stand by the assertion that town had no real option but a Feysal lynch.

Now please, can we not get into the WIFOM of 'Why would Smargaret claim that if it weren't true, since 1-1s aren't good for scum?' My guess is precisely that she was relying on that kind of wifom, or like I said before, she was American scum who was convinced Feysal was Soviet and thought that removing her scum neighbor would make her look good/help get that nightkill out of the way quicker. The only alternatives are a massive failure of reading comprehension on Smarg's part (not likely, especially after I asked her to check carefully) or severe bastard modding (nigh-on impossible).

Vote: Smargaret

Actually Fonz, with Feysal's flip I'm more inclined to believe that smarg is town. I don't see how the scum teams would be balanced with one having a neighbor role and the other team not. To me it just looks like you're trying to get a flash wagon started on smarg before anyone else has time to weigh in on the issue.

Suppose this means that there are 2 scum teams? Hrmmmm...

Seriously? Are you really trying to look shocked to discover this information? It was pretty obvious and even if it was not obvious, we have discussed it ad nauseum. I'm not buying this especially in light of your previous post where you WIFOM why you are still alive and not being wagonned.

Cool I'll just blindly throw my vote out there yer without remembering what reasons I am voting them for.
That's either scummy or just plain foolish as town.

All I have is a sheet with marks next to each players names.

I would rather put my vote on somewhere I'm sure about than throw it about randomly. Thanks.

So you are just posting for the sake of posting? What are you doing to "remember what reasons" or determine where to put your vote? You are fluff posting. The reason you aren't voting is one of two reasons: either you don't want to start a wagon on someone who might flip town or one of those two people is a scum buddy of yours. Which is it?

But keep in mind, I read this under the assumption of ONE scum team and was looking specifically at connections between the 2 flipped scum... hence I'm a bit bummed some of my reads might be fail.

Why in the world are you thinking there is only one scum team? I believe during day two we started discussing the probability being more than likely that there were two scum teams, which only became more likely as the days rolled on. You are clearly playing the role of scum playing the role of dumb townie not knowing the setup a little too obviously.

I'm currently deciding which of The Fonz or Enigma is the best lynch for today.

The Fonz - you willing to help me lynch Enigma today?

Enigma - you willing to help me lynch The Fonz today?

[Beasts of the Sea]

My spouse just came in and told me we were going to make a surprise trip to my in laws for the weekend. V/LA while I wish I was dead all weekend...

[Beasts of the Sea]

More inclined? Seriously, are you actually on the same planet as me here? She claims to have role info that someone is 100% scum, he flips town and you think that makes her MORE likely to be town?

Yes. More inclined.

And flash wagon? WTF? I'm voting her because this may actually be the biggest no brainer in the history of mafia. Good God, how egregious an act does a player have to come out with in this game to get a wagon going? What the heck is wrong with coming in and getting straight to the point? I mean, later in this post you come in and make out that enigma not voting for or attacking his top suspect straight away is scummy. Here you're making me out to be scummy for voting the obvscum straight away. I don't get it... what do you think the protown thing to do when posting right at the start of the day is?

The way the discussion was going yesterday, it seemed that people (you and LMP come to mind) were already setting this lynch up yesterday if Feysal flipped town. It isn't out of the question that everybody would jump on board immediately on this smargaret wagon. I think there are other things to think about, instead of jumping up and down screaming "LIAR." Yesterday, you said this:

That leaves a couple of possibilities. Mod error, intentional bastardry, one or other didn't read the PM properly, or that Smargaret is lying.

The 'we should trust each other' thing does give me pause, and I'd like an explanation of that, but I'd also like both to request mod clarification here, because something isn't adding up. If Smargaret comes back and says 'Yes the mod has re-iterated that Feysal's rolename is East German' and Feysal comes back and says 'Mod has confirmed my rolename is soviet, not East German' then we have an either/or since the alternative would be directly lying to the players.

But I want to exhaust all other possibilities first.

You wanted to exhaust all possibilities first, right? So what is the hurry now, and how did you eliminate the mod error possibilities or intentional bastardry? Given the fact that the moderator flaked on this game I am just not ready to get out the pitchforks on smargaret yet. The fact that you see the situation just the opposite of how I do, especially with regard to the conflicting statements you made yesterday, sends flags up in my mind.

It's quite possible the scumgroups have different power roles. I mean, we've seen a scum jailkeeper, and generally there isn't more than one of those in a game. I'm sure the mod will have tried to ensure that the scumgroups have basically equal amounts of role power, but that doesn't mean they have to have exactly the same roles.

I'm not suggesting that both the scum groups have the exact same roles; my point is that neighbor doesn't really have a balanced equivalent in terms of equal power. Do you agree or disagree?

Day 1 was 50 pages. Normal people start reading from day 1 without the knowledge of two scum teams (even if you are scum). Day 1 made up the bulk of my notes, and I actually read Day 1 more detail than the rest because reading 80 pages isn't fun. So when making my notes and looking at the player list with only one revealed scum, I only read in relation to the two flipped scum. A few days down the track it's still not obvious there are 2 scum teams.. could easily be a vig and a SK, especially with the lack of crosskills... Only this day do we confirm a second scum team.

We established that there was a vig at the beginning of day 2 when the odd night vig flipped. There was equivalent kill flavor on the even night, so yes there is still a vig out there.

And there mass minimal discussion on the probability of two scum teams during day 2 so don't bullshit me mate. I have the luxury of having recently read the game, it was bought up and it wasn't a massive discussion only a bit in the first few stages, nor was it in massive agreement.

Even so, there is no way that it should come as any sort of a shock to you that there are two scum teams. And especially so because, as you just said, you just recently read the game. If your objective by telling me that you only recently re-read the game was to get me to suspect you less in any way, you have failed miserably and in fact accomplished the exact opposite.

I'm currently deciding which of The Fonz or Enigma is the best lynch for today.

The Fonz - you willing to help me lynch Enigma today?

Enigma - you willing to help me lynch The Fonz today?

This sounds your just going to go for the lynch that's easiest.

Not at all. I intend to see both lynched and since our job is to lynch scum I want to know if either of them will help me lynch the other. It might also help determine if they are on the same team or not, given their answers and then a flip.

btw...

Lowell
Furcolow
BotS
Thad

voting bloc?

Yes. As long as we are voting Enigma or The Fonz I'm in. I would be open to other reads but I'm sold on these two both being scum. The Fonz's most recent "pushing" on Enigma for his inability to vote for his strongest suspects without The Fonz actually voting is sending flags up as likely scumbuddies. The Fonz's argument looks to me to be a justified reason to vote someone.

@PeregrineV: RedCoyote was "poisoned," and someone was "assassinated" on Night 3, when we presumably had no vig shot. So the vig flavor must be "removed from the bunker."

All town night killing actions are "removed from the bunker". As far as I am aware, there is no real reason to think there is an SK in the setup. Also, there would have been many more deaths by now.

Also, before I forget I just want to say. First I want to say screw you all for calling me scummy for saying 2 scum teams.
I have a feeling that there may be a third party, looking at the night actions, I'm definitely feeling a 3rd party, I was going to head with vig, but the combinations just don't cut for me. A complementary odd/even night isn't working. And two shot vig is out of the question, and you don't find any 3+ shot above.
So in my little caffeine induced headache, I have decided that one (or even both) scum teams tried to shoot this SK who obviously needs some sort of bulletproof with so many night kills around, so they know who the SK is and probably are hinting to get them lynched.
Something worthwhile to consider a few days down the track.

^^Trying to muddy the waters on flavor and game setup when it is already obvious there are two scum teams, an even night vig, and an odd night vig. The classic 'Look at my right hand moving around while I steal your wallet with my left hand.'

VOTE: Enigma

[Beasts of the Sea]

I have nothing I wish to say.

So you don't deny my accusation about the smoke screen? Hard to argue with the truth?

Why are you going straight for the conspiracy theories rather than the simple and obvious explanation, that Smargaret is scum?

Because, as I have said, I don't see how two scum teams would balance with one having a neighbor, explained in greater detail below.

The question is misleading. What is required is not that both scumteams have a perfect counterpart for each role, but that the power level of the two teams as a whole are roughly equal. One could have two strong PRs, one three weaker ones, etc. I have a hard time thinking of a single role that perfectly counterbalances a rolecop, either. Not to mention, the power of a neighbor is pretty hard to quantify.

I understand your point, but a scum neighbor role is unique in the fact that it allows contact with someone outside the scum faction. It isn't balancing watcher/tracker/roleblocker/godfather/doctor etc. Giving access outside of the faction can't be balanced in any way unless the other team has a neighborizor or a neighbor counterpart. And the fact that it makes absolutely no sense under any circumstances for scum to trade one for one for someone she thinks might be scum. Any suggestion otherwise is, as you said, a conspiracy theory.

The real question is, why are you only interested in policy lynching and not even making an effort to look for scummy behavior? All game you have literally done no scumhunting and instead focusing on players who you think are lying. Even if you are as big a proponent of lynching liars wouldn't you have established at least the bare minimum of peripheral scum reads?

Enigma claiming Lyndon Johnson, USA makes me even more comfortable with my vote. Scummy behavior and on the US scum team. All the better.

So, for now, I will
VOTE: Beasts of the Sea.

This is new. Voting someone just because they have received the least number of votes throughout the game? Perhaps it is just being useful? Maybe you should try it sometime. And just to humor you a bit and since you did all that vote counting, why did you pick me over Sathoris who has also only received one vote?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Regarding the Penegriv/DP slot being scum .... well DP was one player I spent a terrible amount of time reading and double reading. I've played with him alot, and if you spend any time checking his scum meta, it's just so predictable. I don't think he's scum here. Bad luck fellas.

Could you enlighten us as to how it's predictable? Be specific, please.

Me not acknowledging your walls can mean a few things, here's a few take your pick, whatever tickles your fancy.
You're skewing the facts with a biased opinion. Your case has no merit. I don't deny your accusation. I don't feel like replying.
Just to list a few.

How about instead of making everyone guess, you just tell us what your motivation to not read the game could be?

And I find it comical that you can deduce that I am scum based off a name claim. Surely if you were that good (and if you were town), scum wouldn't stand a chance against your amazing telepathic skills.

Well, I find it comical that you oversimplify my read of you, up to the point of entirely dismissing my read. I was quite clear that my scum read on you is solely behavioral-based (which is why my vote on you was

before

you claimed nationality and name).

The fact that you claimed USA is just a bonus.

@Beasts- So you feel that the fact that absolutely nothing you've said, done, or posted that has caused one person to vote for you all day not the least bit suspicious (your one vote was Furcolow's first)? Even though it puts your total game vote count in line with 3 of the dead scum?

This is utterly ridiculous. Are you asking if I find myself suspicious because nobody has found me suspicious?, or are you asking if I think everyone in this game is suspicious because none of them, yourself included, have found me suspicious?

And if the entire case on me rests on how my predecessor voted ... surely you jest right? Maybe we should lynch you.

The "entire case on you" hardly rests on your predecessors play. Or weren't you reading?

But, the extent of your reponse is to list three likely scum. Perhaps a case why, with examples? ThAd did one, I have mine, so nothing stops you from proving your points.

This is especially funny coming from the person who is pushing a "case" based on lack of total votes all game.

My point is that it seems Beasts is "too town to be town", so to speak. He's got one page of posts.

Read his posts as if he were American scum, then go back and read it if he were town.

Take notes both ways. Then decide if you want to vote for him.

Not all scum play the same, but town takes more chances, because when they flip, they'll flip town. Scum takes less chances, 'cause when they flip, it hurts their team more.

First off, "too town to be town" has never been a scumtell.

Secondly, the bolded above looks

strongly

like a scum slip, because, why wouldn't they read it from a

Soviet

scum standpoint as well? Perhaps because you are Soviet and you know that isn't possible? Yep. Caughtscum.

Vote: PeregrineV

As for me, people can read my posts any way they want; it should be perfectly plain where my allegiance lies. My posting speaks for itself. And if you think my "one page of posts" is something to scoff at, then, well, ok. If anyone else wants to ISO me, they are free to read through my posts and pick them apart piece by piece if they so wish.

[Beasts of the Sea]

EBWOP:

Unvote
Vote: PeregrineV

[Beasts of the Sea]

I am French.

Well, Mr American scum, because I do not believe there are any Soviet scum left. Am I wrong?

Yes, for a couple reasons. I have to once again say that balance wise two goons and a rolecop (three total) on a team in a game of 24 doesn't really seem like a balanced faction. In addition, gonnano claimed watcher results so unless he made up two nights of watcher results (highly unlikely) the Soviets have a watcher.

So, armed with this, it makes one wonder: were there any really major wagons Smarg wasn't on? My research yields precisely one: DavidParker. She maintained her one-woman wagon on Stephoscope throughout the lifetime of the DavidParker wagon, then jumped on Amrun after it had lost most of its momentum. This is a strong associative tell- I've found in the past, to my cost, that just jumping every single big wagon isn't indicative of scum. It's indicative of newbie or VI town who are really easily swayed. However, that on this one specific occasion and no other, she passed up a big wagon, is a scumbuddy hint.

I hadn't thought of it in this way before. Good insight.

@ fonz: there are already 2 people on enigma, and I believe more could be convinced. Enigma today, smarg tomorrow?

Or, as an alternative, PV or Enigma today and the other tomorrow?

Spend a bit of time reading his games. EVERY SINGLE TIME HE IS SCUM HE BUSSES. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
SO PREDICTABLE THAT EVEN A BLIND MONKEY WOULD NOTICE.

So how do you distinguish DavidParker's votes on Artem and gonnano as not busses?

How about instead of making everyone guess, you just tell us what your motivation to not read the game could be?

Use the gift I so kindly gave you.

Now you are just being intentionally difficult. You gave a list of possible reasons you didn't read my post, and now I am supposed to put on a sarcasm hat and make sense out of it?

The "entire case on you" hardly rests on your predecessors play. Or weren't you reading?

Or were you not reading? Or at least not in context. They are pushing scum solely because of voting patterns. Because my predecessor is one of the few unconfirmed on a town wagon ... which surely must always be pushed by scum no?

You forgot the parts where I called you scum for feigning surprise at there being two scum teams and then trying to muddy the waters with some sort of SK or third party running around. It isn't solely based on vote count analysis and you and I both know it. And no, wagons are not always pushed by scum, but the odds of a wagon getting to seven or eight votes without a single scum on it are astronomical.

[Beasts of the Sea]

ii) Precisely one of the living American Mafia claimed American, the other two claimed other nationalities.

I wouldn't be surprised if the American scum claimed soviets since the heat is obviously on the Americans now and less on the Soviets.

So, Mr Beasts of the Sea. You believe there to be 3 American scum and 1 Soviet scum left.

I think you are the remaining Soviet scum and I think Enigma is USA scum, with The Fonz being USA by association. To be honest, my scum read on The Fonz has gone down today since he is now doing some actual scumhunting instead of standing by his policy lynches only. I'll revisit this when Enigma flips.

4 Enigma - USA Scum
6 PeregrineV - Soviet Scum
8 ThAdmiral - Leaning Town
10 Furcolow - Town
11 Lowell - Town
13 smargaret - Leaning Town
18 bvoigt - Leaning Town
22 The Fonz - USA Scum, pending Enigma's flip
24 Sathrois - USA Scum, POE

Peregrine, is there any particular reason you're so set on there being no Soviets left?

Yes, because he's the remaining Soviet. It couldn't be anymore obvious.

The question is, do we want to kill off the remaining Soviet team (PV) and eliminate a night kill, or kill a USA scum (Enigma) and hope for cross kills? I'm leaning towards eliminating a night kill for sure, because hoping for cross kills is not as sure of a bet as killing off a scum team for certain.

[Beasts of the Sea]

The question is more like, do we lynch Beasts today, and if he is town, I'll shut up and be the lynch tomorrow. Wouldn't that be groovy?
No more me and my craaaaaaazzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyy ideas.

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

From context ThAdmiral, I assume you are talking about me in this quote... but what happened in the next five hours that ejected me from the so called voting block? That seems like a pretty drastic (and unwarranted) turn around.

I'm not going to continue to support a wagon pushed by smargaret and Sathoris, along with Beasts, who despite saying Enigma is scum and I am his partner with unspecified 'ties' is quite happy to push the counterwagon.

You can quit with the melodramatics at any time, Fonz. I was on Enigma all day when it wasn't even a viable wagon. There were

no

viable wagons at the time (remember all the Feystalling, and the 'rainbow vote count' comments?). So, saying I'm pushing a counterwagon is not even close to true. In fact, you were the one that made PeregrineV the leading wagon when you joined before bailing.

I've made it abundantly clear that I am okay with either a Enigma or PeregrineV lynch today, but the question is really this: why wasn't anyone joining the Enigma-wagon earlier, when I was pushing it? It only began to garner votes once I switched.

@The Fonz- Beasts has to say that in order for his "3 american scum team + Peregrine" to make any sense. He knows your not scum.

Even if I

was

scum, how would I know that The Fonz is

not

scum? For all I could know, he might be on the rival scum team.

Also, by the way, beasts: policy lynching IS scumhunting. It's probably its purest form. Saying 'X action almost always comes from scum, so lynch for it.'

But my whole point was you were neglected to do anything else for a long period of time. As I said here it seems you didn't even look at peripheral reads of people surrounding your policy lynches.

The Fonz, I especially like how your confidence level on Enigma being scum ratchets up a notch the closer he got to being lynched and tried to make ties from him to me; especially considering you were so hesitant to consider voting him previously. Then, you jump ship as soon as votes start falling.

Enigma and The Fonz are partners. You heard it here first.

As The Fonz said, fuck it. If we want to leave a NK in play then so be it. But lynching Enigma is almost as good because it will confirm The Fonz as scum tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Enigma