American Gods Mafia - Game over

[LlamaFluff]

Vote ani

policy

Elect LlamaFluff, Ythill, OGML

Inverse policy.

There is no real point to get into resurect at this point since no one is dead. For the backstage thing, its imperative to elect people who know what they are doing at this point. This means not anyone from the VI group.

Also im V/LA from the 5th to 9th. Zero chance of getting a post in until late wednesday

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: Although I agree with the no VI with the masonary ability, don't you think it's too early to determine who you want to talk with at night?

I know of at least three people that I would hate to be in a topic with unless I was sure they were town, and even then I dont think they would be too useful in a topic, since obv-town and not-VI dont always apply. Right now I know more about who I dont want to talk with at night, and who I would like to speak with if I had no info. My votes may change, but I would be more then happy with the people I voted.

Don't you think it should be 2 people that the majority find town and 1 player the majority find scum (that is not lynched) to grill the scum at night in the QT and see how they react?

I think the best use of the topic is to just bounce ideas off people that you think are town and be able to develop a theory between people that everyone thinks is town, that is guarenteed to be presented the next day. I would rather be in a topic with two people I thought were obviously town then one town and one scum.

[LlamaFluff]

I will wagon for wagon sake. Any of the WC-SGR-Ani triangle of chaos getting a wagon on them will be good for reads on all of them, and im pretty sure SGR is vote leader.

unvote
Vote SGR

[LlamaFluff]

unelect OMGL
elect GG

Can someone actually give me a concise ani case right now? As much as I think he is great policy lynch bait, I really cant find much there that justifies a lynch of him. That for him probably is a town tell since I have never seen it happen before.

SGR is a far better wagon then ani is, although there are a few people I think are more likely to flip scum at this point, and since this is very likely my last post until wednesday... time to make the best of it

unvote
Vote Ghost

His entire early case against SGR is that SGR is trying to figure out what the ani case is somewhat inefficiently. I think its a good thing to try and force out that case, because im not too sure it exists at this point.

Later we get this really nice comment

I need to reread the game, see what people are seeing about Ani, and maybe even decide if Ythill's worth a vote.

Well, now he is voting SGR, trying to see why ani is scum (which apprently is a tell to him) and maybe going in a third direction against someone who is already probably town for what looks like OMGUS-fuled reasoning. Agar already explained the logic behind that one, but I think we actually can get the ghost wagon started up here. To summarize this doozy though, Ghost just set himself up to be able to vote any of the top vote getters, without showing any indication of where he is leaning, the post is a great definiton of keeping your options open.

So yeah, I would like to see a third wagon option here by the time I get back. Also a few of the people voting ani give me a nice case on him. Just a paragraph or something will work, even though reading him in iso I think its going to be hard to scrounge up that much.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm acutally trying to find the reasoning for cases on my own. You've 'requested' people present you with a case. In other words, it's

pretty damn scummy

to vote for people trying to do the same thing as you.

Im saying that ani is more likely town then scum, asking for a case on him is my attempt at taking down the wagon since I dont think such a case exists.

The way you present the SGR/ani/Ythill thing, you seem to say that all three players are scummy, but you are putting the burden of finding a case on ani on others. I am saying ani is town, and forcing a case out of people, completely different things given how our reads differ.

[LlamaFluff]

@Ythill - I kinda can see the ani-case, but this being one of the only times I havent thought he was obviously scum and should be lynched/vigged instantly. Your first two points I dont see as a tell at all, and the others are minor tells if anything. Just not feeling ani-scum at all, call it gut if you have too, but this is probably the only time I have played with him where I thought he wasnt scum after the first ten pages.

Im happy with where my vote is headed to V/LA

@WC and Agar - Please post a case on ani. Do not refrence Ythills case in your case.

[LlamaFluff]

Just got back from out of town, will do a catchup tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

this is probably the only time I have played with him where I thought he wasnt scum after the first ten pages.

Unless he

was

scum in all those other games, this seems like reason enough to keep an eye on him.

Actually he HAS been scum in one of the games (granted scum with me) but he seemed extremely obvious and after about a day I needed to bus him. This is just an unprecidented number of not-scum looking I have seen him appear outside of a game where he got confirmed as town.

unvote
Vote Ghost

His entire early case against SGR is that SGR is trying to figure out what the ani case is somewhat inefficiently. I think its a good thing to try and force out that case, because im not too sure it exists at this point.

Can you explain how you come to the conclusion?

His case on SGR being about the ani case thing is in his iso-3. As I have said in the past, I really dont see a case on ani. Even with people trying to argue it to me, I think its a very weak case at best, and ani is probably town at this point.

For what farside is saying about me and ani, yes I do have ani as one of my policy lynches for many reasons and almost outed for the game when I saw him join, but I respect Jahudo and like the game so am biting the bullet here. I am not however going to policy lynch someone I have a slight town read on, unless that person is Nat where I will just replace out of the game on spot.

More fodder for why Ghost is scum comes from him leaving his options open again by FoSing someone he already has called scum saying he would be willing to lynch them. It feels like a fish to see if someone will follow him on it.

The OGML wagon starting off confuses me since I have him as mostly null. Love the response from Apoc to the wagon in 244 expect for the SGR is scum thing, I do somewhat agree with Agar-scum, he is a good gut read that I need to look into.

unelect GG
elect Apoc

I encourage a wagon sending Apoc backstage. He isnt posting much, but when he does, he is posting very well. Think this is a great type of player to send back.

Farside still pushing for ani-town reasoning... egh. His iso 1 is a town post, he shows no freakout over me trying to get him lynched on policy, he is making elects he thinks is best for the town, he is pushing a case. I just read town up and down from it. Nothing else is scummy, so he is leaning town.

This wagon on OGML still is bugging me, I sorta see where the push comes from, but I dont like it on a few levels, just feels wrong. People in particular that I dont like on it are Ghost, WC adn Agar.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyway, I think Ghost still is scum here. Likey with at least one of WC and Agar.

Lets look at all the options he has opened for himself over the few days I was gone

At the moment

Fos: Ani

. I wouldn't mind lynching him at all today.

I mentioned this in my catchup, I see lots of fishing for an Ani wagon in this post.

Tasky's worth susspecting and it's worth applying pressure for his replacement to find out if the the tactics continue. The only people who have posted less are werewolf, who's sorta infamous for it, and vezok, who is all but a confirmed VI regardless of which game he plays.
...
This isn't a 'SGR isn't scum' post, this is a 'hey guys, why aren't we looking at someone that's obviously not posting in the best interests of town?' post. Frankly, I feel that SGR is still worth a look, but frankly, Tasky's pretty damn suspicious.

He quickly shuffles around to a third option, this one just doesnt make sense to me. He seems to just be throwing a temp vote there since he is already saying the vote only is going to stick around if the replacement continues to post nothingness. It feels like another lob to see if anyone bothers to bite. At the end he continues to keep the door open on SGR, bringing his possible vote count up to three.

Yeah, OMGL has a lot of posts, but no acutal cases or even much content. He also asks someone he supposedly thinks is scum who he should vote for out of two options, which I can't see the use of unless you wanted to play the WIFOM game with yourself. Or you didn't acutally believe in what you were saying. I am OK with this wagon.

Again ghost makes a jump for the big wagon, jumping on OGML as the wagon shows up. This follows suit with suddenly being happy with the big wagons.

Ghost is just jumping around on all of the big wagons, at all the times they become popular. This is shown in SGR who he abandoned once the wagon died out, ani when that wagon was a possibility, and OMGL now that its shown up.

I still like my vote at this point. Five days later and its still in the right place.

[LlamaFluff]

Farside still pushing for ani-town reasoning... egh. His iso 1 is a town post, he shows no freakout over me trying to get him lynched on policy, he is making elects he thinks is best for the town, he is pushing a case. I just read town up and down from it. Nothing else is scummy, so he is leaning town.

So him pushing a bad case on an easy lynch goes out the window? No thought on scum buddying townies?

I dont think he is doing it in an scum motivation manner, especially the first WC one which I actually dont see as a bad spot to look at this point in the game. The SGR one is weaker, but it doesnt cancel out everything else that he has done making him look town.

The ghostlin case actually makes to take a step back and reevulate.

What?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: Although you point on morph seem's reasonable, his play reminds me of another game I was in with him where he was scum. I see him pushing easy lynches with weak reasoning and lurking. I remember another game we were in with him and morph was town, so I will look at the 2 games and compare and get back with a final analysis on it.

Yeah I remember that game... a good example of how I always tend to think he is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

I am completely down for a LMP-back wagon. Would rather see him back there then Sea, GG and farside hands down, and have him around the same level as Ythill/Apoc. Since no one aparently is happy with a Apoc vote

unelect Apoc
Elect LMP

@Sea - Can you explain your suspicions? You are calling just about all the top wagons scum at this point. What is your order here?
@Agar - Same question.

[LlamaFluff]

You're right, I'm wagon-hopping with a bit of reckless abandon. But I'm not going to sit here and re-hash the points on players when cases have already been made. I've already given scumhunting on OGML. I'm not going to give full lists with reads on every player, I'm not going to give a 13 point analysis on why X is scum or Y is scum. I've found my choices, and I'm willing to work with everyone here in order to maximize our D1 potential. If I wasn't, my vote would still be parked on OGML.

Reckless wagon isnt anything to be ashamed of, and contrary to popular belief is not scummy. You are being very vauge about anything past your call that OMGL is scum though, just lobbing names up without doing much to distinguish between any of them, just that you think they are decent lynches which is not going to fly.

At this point im going to wagon up the person who I really think can get lynched over townish read OGML and meh-Nexus. Just to note the OMGL wagon should be shot up by a vig tonight for sure, not sure anyone who has been on that wagon recently is holding more then a neutral read.

Vote WC

Ghost is still a lynch I could back, but this is just building up steam as the better lynch, and I think the more feasable one.

[LlamaFluff]

What changed in between with morph being a person you would wagon for the wagon sake and the very next post where you are asking for a case and calling him great policy lynch bait?

Beacuse between those two posts he had gone from zero to six serious votes for reasons that obviously were not wagon for the sake of wagon since there wasnt a wagon there to start. That ment it had to be serious, and I saw no reason that there could be a serious wagon on him, so I tried to force one out, and it more or less reaffirmed my thoughts on him.

Could one of the GG/Sea voters remove them for LMP now? Not sure how anyone can argue that one of them is more town then LMP is.

[LlamaFluff]

What changed in between with morph being a person you would wagon for the wagon sake and the very next post where you are asking for a case and calling him great policy lynch bait?

Beacuse between those two posts he had gone from zero to six serious votes for reasons that obviously were not wagon for the sake of wagon since there wasnt a wagon there to start. That ment it had to be serious, and I saw no reason that there could be a serious wagon on him, so I tried to force one out, and it more or less reaffirmed my thoughts on him.

Yet 3 people stated reason's and you still slided away from your position on morph. I don't see why.

Because upon examination he was not reading as scum at all. While I like wagon for info, I dont like wagon someone I have leaning town for info, especially when no one is giving an explaination for a vote that I like.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe because we're done with the wagon hopping and ready to get a lynch? You think WC is plainly superior to Ghostlin? Explain why. Otherwise get back here.

For my move, I really dont like the way that WC is pushing the OMGL lynch. He seems to be almost soley using the reasoning of "It will tell us about others" while pushing on him. This is mangified by the fact that OMGL is a medium town read to me, and the wagon on him is really ugly looking.

I will have no problem moving back to a Ghost lynch since I still have a scum read there, but I want to get more out of this mini-wagon at least before we actually throw a lynch out there.

@WC - Why is OGML scum?
Same question to Apoc and SGR

[LlamaFluff]

This is mangified by the fact that OMGL is a medium town read to me, and the wagon on him is really ugly looking.

Justify your Town read on OMGL. Seriously. I’ve posted in two ISO fairly clearly why I think he’s scum (ISO1 and the new bit of Cognitive Diss at ISO 16). Please explain why those reasons aren’t valid suspicions.

He reads as town?

I dont really see that much scum motivation for his play. He pushes on SGR, he defends his view and tunnel vision, and eventually is open to change and he justifies the change. There is nothing about his play that screams town, but I dont see much reason to consider him as scum, especially when you compare wagons and who are on them.

The OMGL wagon is one of the most ugly things to me, as I really dont have favorable reads of anyone on it. On someone that you are iffy on, that alone is a decent tell.

Deadline is Saturday and this is a busy week for me, no one is biting on a WC lynch, Ghost-scum is still a fine lynch.

unvote
vote 00con

[LlamaFluff]

I need to do some thinking here, thats two flips I didnt see coming. Oddly enough the ghost flip makes me fall back on thinking AGar was scum quite a bit. Want to take a look at what Ythill said and see if that changes anything that I saw from WC.

[LlamaFluff]

Anything you guys want to share from backstage?

I want to see what Llama is going to say before I answer this.

Im pretty sure I can get the point that im town across against this wagon is about all I can really say on the matter. Its not to hard to prove along with a few other things.

Elect LMP
Elect KK
Elect AGar

At least one of the previous backstage people should go backstage again. I would vastly prefer this to be LMP. Still dislike the OGML wagon, based off past reads soley.

[LlamaFluff]

I wonder... Did YThill's death have anything to do with Backstage?

There was also comments from Ythill about doing a vote gambit. I think Llama is being too cool about our votes.

I just am pretty sure im not going to be lynched for various reasons. Also bad play from me is common under certain scenarios. You know that. If you have anything for me to answer so I can just cut the wagon at this I would like to more then doing the same old dance number that happens so many times.

[LlamaFluff]

stop making bad posts llama. plz.

unvote

not really a priority for now, I guess.

More like lets see some actual scum hunting from Llama. There is no protown excuse for not doing that.
Also Llama why did you pick LMP over GG or myself as the 3 to go back stage. Why Agar?
You never answered my question about Apok either.

Well I was the main one who put stuff up on Ghost, and was the one actually giving some reasons to why I wanted a WC lynch at the end of the day. With the flips though and not having much time, I still am getting situated here, mostly reading through with my current reads. Jumping around on the OMGL pushers mostly who I still have a gut read that that is town.

Out of you three, I have the strongest town read on LMP, and I think not sending you and GG backstage is best given the demenor you two showed towards each other. With the Ghost flip, I actually like AGar as town, given how much of my read was based on Ghost.

Apoc showed some strength in stepping behind the Ghost wagon early as it got pushed, which I saw as town. After that he moved to AGar which I liked the wagon of at the time, now not so much, but I still think starting his own wagon is a town tell. I like his analysis, and his ideas really are more original then not, and you can see them come around which I just see as something that tends to be hard to fake, especially from new players.

[LlamaFluff]

We should resurect vezok later in the game, when he actually can be more useful. Right now we are wasting a resurect on someone who only has one result, and a tracker is a role that actually increases in power as the game continues. I would rather only use the resurect if we have a cop dead, or when we get to the late game point where resurecting forces scum to choose between cleared town and dangerous town. Early in the game who is going to be dangerous town is more speculation, so early resurect is bad.

@Apoc - Reads change. After the flip from ghost, analysis said that AGar is most likely town. You need to realize that things have chances to change when a flip occurs.

I am more willing to vote Apoc today given what has been recetly pointed out, SGR bugs me a little, although he was actually pushing on Ythill for a bit before he completely dropped him. Still doing some reading between the two, trying to figure out if the SGR thing was a wierd distance/bus thing or not. Seas last post pings a bit too.

[LlamaFluff]

Oddly enough the ghost flip makes me fall back on thinking AGar was scum quite a bit.

Right here, you say that you think AGar's scum, based on the ghost flip. Hence, contradicting yourself.

Poor wording on my part, fall back on ment back off in that case.

[LlamaFluff]

*ffs MS eating a big post*

So im still a little hopped up on painkillers, but I think im more situated in this game now, and im more running back and forth between a few people battling early and current reads. I still say AGar is town (despite Apoc not liking my inital bad wording for that) and to an extent OGML still as town, although its not as strong as afformentioned reads.

First vezok is not the right revive today, more likely a revive tomorrow. We only have two revives, and I think waiting on a revive of a stronger investigative role is the better move. If we revive now and lose a better role tonight, then we are out of luck if a confirmed town dies at a later point. I would rather get confirmed town or stronger power back in the game then a tracker, which again, early in the game is NOT A STRONG ROLE. I love trackers/watchers, and the tracker is a weak role early on since it only works if it hits a few people. As the game progresses it has a higher hit chance so is stronger. If we lose weak roles, vezok comes back tomorrow.

Now, im going back and forth between SGR, Sea and Apoc for votes right now. SGR I would love to vote if it wasnt for the early posts with him and Ythill, which do not read like two scum sniping back and forth from SGR standpoint, who would have had to just fly off the handle at something a more useful partner did. I just see it more as a town-scum scenario despite the later options open stance that SGR took. Sea continues to make me feel uncomfortable as he did yesterday, and him trying to block a vezok revive on the reasoning that vezok is a VI before anything else is what is making me about ready to vote there. It just doesnt match up to me with town reasoning to get a player out or back, since it should be how useful the role is. Even a VI can be kept under wraps fairly simply (see that one SC game where the entire town guided anis vig shots the entire time). Apoc seems to be just looking for a lynch that is not him, but I really had a decent town read on him day one, sure its hurt by flips, but I still am hung up on it a bit.

Done with classes and lab, got a little homework to do, gotta make food, then I will try and get a vote down.

[LlamaFluff]

And you see why I hate the term "fluff posting"

In response to raising Vezok against these points
1. I don't trust Vezok to have tracked anybody particularly informative, I've watched Vezok as a mod twice now and I've yet to see anything insightful.
2. This assumes we can keep Vezok alive long enough to deliver the results.

This again though is saying that we shouldnt do anything because of who has the role. A good role in the hands of a bad player is still a GOOD ROLE. I remember a game where ani had some weird day vig role, and the town just told him what to do with it for the rest of the game, and the role was used well because of that. The ability can still be dangerous as long as its submitted. Heck submitted at random can be even more dangerous since there is no "textbook" move from scum anymore.

In conclusion, we definitely don't raise Vezok tonight, we most likely don't raise Vezok later because a) someone better will die and b) Vezok will likely fall over dead immediately.

A is true. A better investigator gets the revive. B is missing the point that vezok will not only eat a nightkill of someone who is stronger as a player, but may leave scum in a scenario where there are multiple dangerous roles, or vezok vs confirmed town to read with. If vezok is the best town power dead tomorrow, we revive him then. Today we just lynch.

Anyway, Fate and Llama, do either of you have an opinion on Farside's assumption that an 18 player game cannot have two scum teams?

Can happen doesnt really matter at this point, all Ythill death points to is probably not a vig.

[LlamaFluff]

seacore keeps talking about things that aren't scumhunting. the setup. other games. lots and lots and lots of text about stuff that isn't scumhunting.

Apoc lynch or Sea lynch better?

I can really go for either at this point, but Apoc is looking better to me at this point

@Saint - Who apart from AGar who is scum?

Vote Apoc

That should be L-1.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont want an AGar sacrafice.

elect GG
elect Llama
elect LMP

Sacrafice Sea
Vote MoI
Revive Apoc

I like the sea sac/lynch far more then the SGR one at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

I still say AGar lynch is bad. If you trust my reads we lynch someone else.

[LlamaFluff]

I still say AGar lynch is bad. If you trust my reads we lynch someone else.

You ask for trust and don't vote for anyone. REASONS WHY TOO WOULD BE AWESOME.

Im voting for MoI and Sea first of all.

In the words of Fate though, I will explain my read backstage.

@GG - Really really or sorta really?

[LlamaFluff]

No. We are not going to lynch AGar, or sacrafice AGar. I explain more backstage, but for now we leave him alive, it is going to be better in the long run.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama you want to give a reason yet?

I want to watch this for a little bit, but yes reason is coming. It will be worth the wait.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok time to bring this out, I think last page should be able to get us something as the game goes on, so I will break this whole stalemate of info hiding.

Through my role, through AGars role, or through someone elses role, I know that AGar is not scum. I got this info from a night one result. That is why I have been trying to shut down that wagon discussion as much as possible starting day two. Can we please stop trying to kill him now?

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama: Are you saying there is another source you gain info on people from?

There could be, im trying to not claim what my role is right now since there is no reason to do so. My information is important however.

I either

1) Am an investigative role with a not scum result on AGar
2) Was told due to AGars role that he is not scum
3) Was told by a different role that AGar is not scum

All three scenarios say that AGar is not scum, which is the point im trying to drive home now.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: I'm wondering about Robot (TM's) game. That is where my question is leading too. Since you stated your looking at Agar I'm assuming not role cop since you didn't equate possible GF into your thought process. Also I'm still looking for an answer about Morph and my meta post of him. Did you read it, think about it or analysis it?

I realize the threat of a role that is not town and could show as town to an investigative role if that is what happened here. I am not going to discount a result on the possibility that such a role may exist. Buying into it at this stage in the game is nothing more than fearmongering.

I really dont see any good ani meta. Every time I have tried to read him, I just read scum. This game is different, so I am going with my gut of him simply not being scum. I will stay open in that since with him emotion gets in the way of reads, but I just see town this time.

[LlamaFluff]

We are not lynching or sacraficing AGar when I have a mod message saying that he is not scum. Its not happening. Period.

I also dont really see logic behind the attack on Saint at this point either. That slot reads a very solid null.

Will see if I cant get a bit of a Sea case up over the next couple days. I still say the MoI/Sea combo is the way to go about it today.

[LlamaFluff]

KK, as WC has pointed out, and I think he's right, the ship has sailed on "IF" we resurrect today. We have already reached the threshold for resurrect votes. Now we have to decide who to sacrifice.

Well... we dont "need" to sacrafice, since if we dont get a majority there it looks like we just dont do it by the game rules. Bringing Apoc back is worth using the first sacrafice though.

[LlamaFluff]

Bringing Apoc back is worth using the first sacrafice though.

Why?

Reading rules, he doesnt get an action or can be killed this night, so day four we get one confirmed town with a possible result. If we include partial massclaim of all this softclaiming going around, we might be able to overload scum with clear/semi clear/threatening role players day four.

I agree a bit with Saint softclaim being a little bit of a *twitch* situation, but I am fine waiting to add him to the list of "to claims" tomorrow given that I really dont have a scum read on him.

[LlamaFluff]

That wasnt what I thought was going to be the claim... thought the solution to a puzzle just would have been solved but now it turns out the 100 piece one was really a 1000 piece.

No one hammer yet (also due to no one being sacraficed), I want to think about this a bit. Something feels off though, GG just mentioned what feels most odd. Just the result makes me uncomfortable.

[LlamaFluff]

Saint should claim if the visited Fate result is actually true or not before we get any further.

[LlamaFluff]

Or we could just flat out sacrafice him without a claim.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote seacore

I just realized something, MoI should have a very proveable role, and I dont think it can possibly be a scum role unless Saint flips town vig. If Saint is a SK, and MoI is telling the truth, we have a townie that gained the ability of a SK (so we have a vig). If there are not two kills in one night, then MoI is lying about his ability, if there are two kills, MoI is not lying. I also really doubt as im rambling that MoIs role can be scum because it would give scum two kills in one night, which seems little swingy. If Saint is a SK, its massively swingy since it punishes the town for lynching SK before a memebr of scum, so I dont see it as a scum role. If Saint is scum, again MoI cant be scum with him since the ability would be proven a lie almost instantly, if Saint flips non-killer, we just auto-sac MoI tomorrow. If Saint flips mafia or SK, it makes MoI town. If Saint flips vig, then we are back at square one, but with (presumeably) a Ythill and Fate kill, im guessing anti-town.

We wait for Saint regardless to claim, but I think this claim will work itself out overnight, or if anyone else visted Fate they can just insta-bust it. In the meantime, we can lynch Sea-scum.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote MoI

And I just rememberd that MoI only gets lynched players powers. Just ignore that last post.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote Seacore

Actually point still applies unless Saint flips vig I forgot already. Scum wouldnt be able to draw an extra kill power from lynched scum or lynched SK as that makes the game really unbalanced (vig less likely to be lynched so I can see it happening). We just dont get to prove it this way. Anyone see what I am trying to loop in here? I feel like im losing myself and everyone else in this logic.

Damnit Saint needs to post.

[LlamaFluff]

So... you either protect or roleblock randomly? I dont get it.

Is there ANY way you could have killed Fate with your action?

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama: There is so much WIFOM behind your post that you will drive me nuts. Where is that post you promised about Seacore?

Its been a long week and ive been going in and out of apathying in this game for some reason.

Anyways, Seacore has done next to nothing in this game.

Early he votes LL for a reason that response goes ignored for a majority of the first day, in the meantime he all out defends WC, not a bad thing since I like defending people as well, but he did do pushing of people. Eventually he realizes that LL responded to him, and sheeps the Ghost wagon with

he looks scummier than he did in No Exit Mafia, where he was town

Thats all that he does though for it, he just parks his vote there and moves on. At the same time he takes mini jabs at GG, saying that he is reading half of the hydra as scum and the other half as town. This is just based on meta though, still no real case on anyone, as he continues to throw out possibilites of a OGML wagon, and liking AGar as scum with OGML.

Soon enough he is voting OMGL for lack of scumhunting (ironic isnt it), but there seems to just be more of a drive to get OGML lynched then there is to get him lynched on any actual reasoning. He continues to just shuffle back and forth between the two lynches going for whatever one is bigger (admittedly), while its not bad normally, he seems to have zero prefrence, and just is interested in having any lynch.

As day ends he breaks off into a new tangent

I don't think WC is scum, but I'll lynch him at deadline as a VI and not feel too bad about it.

This is someone who he spent the early stages of the game defending hard, now for no reason, he jumps to wanting to lynch him for being a VI if it comes to it. Instead of picking one of OMGL and Ghost and trying to push the lynch through, he is leaving the option open to voting for a third person who he has shown zero interest in thinking was scum, and more likely town.

Next he actually starts explaining his read of why WC is an acceptable VI lynch in detail, again instead of pushing on someone he thinks is scum. It seems like a scum reaction to me, trying to excessivly justify a sudden change in move that he took some immediate flack for (from LMP). Which ends day one for Sea, and my case for the time being. To sum up day one though -

Zero scumhunting. He calls OMGL and Ghost scum but never makes a case on either, choosing to simply sheep the wagons. On top of that, he never really chooses one of OGML and Ghost is the better lynch, just shuffles between the two players. In the end he even starts turning around on WC who he goes from defending to saying that he is a very acceptable deadline lynch for being a VI and overjustifying it when attacked for it.

Saint sac im happy with though given the aftermath of it, which means that he is not a vig and that creates the WIFOM I already mentioned. Going to stay on Sea for now, im not ready to move back to MoI quite yet, no lynching for a little please.

[LlamaFluff]

You find llama's case convincing? Looks like a lot of MEH to me.

How is spending the first day of the game just randomly hopping back and forth between wagons without pushing either of them or actually giving a basis behind either of the wagons, followed by a fast turnaround on the player he spent the entire first part of the day defending a "meh" situation?

Saint's role claim, I don't really understand it. Can someone explain it to me? is he a 50% doctor? bodyguard? what? does he know? does anyone?

It was an "I am scum" claim I think. He is claiming just bodyguard though from what I can tell, so its guarenteed one of him and MoI are scum. I just think its Saint here and we can pull off two scum lynches.

[LlamaFluff]

@Farside - With that result from MoI, I dont see him thinking Saint is anything but scum. The only way it could mean Saint-town is if he was a vig who killed Ythill (who was fairly obv town to me and most) and then Fate (replaced Nexus so not an impossible, but improbable vig kill). I just dont buy it, and the claim cements it. MoI is probably town from all of this believe it or not.

Still say Sea > OGML.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not saying quick lynch, but I still have a lingering town read from OGML day one, and his ask to be sacrafied added to that a bit. He has given back a few points as of late, but he isnt one of my prefered lynches. Will take more then "he lurks" to make me flip on that one.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not saying quick lynch, but I still have a lingering town read from OGML day one, and his ask to be sacrafied added to that a bit. He has given back a few points as of late, but he isnt one of my prefered lynches. Will take more then "he lurks" to make me flip on that one.

I don't have a lingering feeling any more on OGML. Fate had a point but since OGML didn't follow threw it doesn't = town. Also the sacrafice is null. Scum could say it to look town, town says it when for reason's that I don't want to get into as it's more info for scum.

What points of late has he made?

I still consider the asking to be sacraficed a slight town tell. As of late he has done nothing though, and I really disagree with most of his reads on people. Either way, not enough to push the lynch of him at this point. Day three is not the right place and time for a lurker wagon. It would be nice to know his flip, but not nice enough to put it over Sea.

[LlamaFluff]

Given back a few points ie Town Points (non transferable Llama-Bucks, actual cash value 1/1000 of a peso).

You do have some good points on KK, just like my push on Sea more at this point. The not wanting to bring back Apoc is bad to me.

[LlamaFluff]

@Sea - We are not lynching MoI anymore given the results claim. See my arguement earlier for why it makes more sense as a town then scum role. Given how bad Saint seemed to butcher his "claim", I think MoI caught scum. With the info role stuff I know about, MoIs role actually seems balanced.

@Agar - You are ignoring the possibility of fakeclaiming scum.

[LlamaFluff]

We sacrafice MoI the next day since the chance of MoI being town with his role, Saint being a bodyguard, if scum have a RB them targeting Saint, and if scum have a ninja them having killed Fate is a situation im willing to call statistically improbable.

So we arent lynching MoI.

[LlamaFluff]

I cant get behind a MoI lynch at this point.

We essentially have a claim-counterclaim situation, where one of them is a whole lot more realistic. What I dont like is how many people are voting each of them, when the Saint-scum side is througougly busted at this point. What I am seeing is a large group of people going to getting the scum lynch and the PR lynch all at once. The sacrafice of Saint with the lynch of another is the best way to go about this, since it leaves most likely MoI-town alive, ends up with Sain-scum dead, and we get another shot at scum, which means we can do better then 1/2, which is the best we can realistically do with the Saint-MoI combo here.

GG and Locke need to explain this one quite a bit. Do you think they are both scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama

Please explain why this is not possible

MoI is being attacked for being scum and it's looking like a likely lynch.
MoI then says "I'm a better player than Saint, I'm going to sacrifice Saint, for myself, for the greater scum good.
MoI then outs Saint as scum, argues for Saint to be lynched instead of himself
Saint flips scum (not SK) and MoI is a hero and we raise him upon our shoulders and never discuss lynching him again.

Because of exactly what is happening. In a normal game, we see a claim and counter, one of the two is going up. In this game the probability of a claim and counter getting the result of "Lets lynch them both at once" is a very high one. It could very very easily result in a lynch of two scum, which is a disaster. Also the of course major gambit that MoI would have to risk anyone else having visited Fate that night when he claimed which would result in his instant death.

Can it happen, yes. It however is needlessly risky in a situation where he would not have needed to be needlessly risky. Occamz razor here: Saint scum, MoI town. I am rolling with that.

@Agar: I don't think anyone without some brain cells connect actually believes Saint at this point.

I got the impression that some people did, hence him not being completely and unanimously run up for sacrificing.

@Agar - You are ignoring the possibility of fakeclaiming scum.

Saint or MoI?

If Saint, then uhhh what?

Saint scum goes "oh shit he knows I visited Fate", then he goes "oh I can claim a protective role, and just say I was blocked". He isnt going to claim vig, no one else visited Fate, caught scum throwin up a desperation attempt to stay alive with an off the wall claim. The more likely fake claim.

LlamaFluff - Why is OhGodMyLife a bad lynch for today?

Because Sea is more likely scum. OGML isnt the worst lynch out there, but there are a few people who I see as more likely to be scum then OGML is at this point, so im not going to be gunning for that lynch. This is compounded by the case on him being more "is lurking" then anything else.

[LlamaFluff]

Agar - Same thing to you that I am pushing others on. Are you actually trying to argue that Saint-MoI are scum together here? I cannot remotely see this actually happening. MoI wagon needs to fall apart immediately.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: I think it's a possibility that they're scum on the same team, although I agree that it would be a very risky play and the only real reason to do it as buddies would be for exactly that reaction, that people thought it was so unlikely scum-MoI would make a play that risky to throw scum-Saint under the bus that they were deterred from an MoI lynch.

This is essentiall a guilty claim on Saint from MoI. Are you really attempting to argue that the best thing to do in one of these scenarios is to lynch both the players instantly? Especially when the guilty result is one someone who is fairly obviously guilty at this point? Its a bad move to simply kill both of them at once, since you are nearly for sure going to be killing town on one side of the equation. You compare the claims, the actions, and everything else you know and then you lynch the scum out of the two, leaving town role alive to do other actions.

My more favoured theory links to what Farside stated at one point: that they're both anti-town but Saint is SK/scum of another faction and MoI has a scum role that has given him the information that Saint killed Fate. That, plus the points that the complexity and nature of MoI's claim seem incongruous with simpler roles and a revive mechanic, and that you were a more obvious watch target than Fate, give me a lot of doubt about the claim. We all seem to agree it's pretty likely that Ythill's killer was not town, so this seems like an entirely plausible scenario to me. If MoI can satisfactorily explain why he thought Fate was a better protect target when you were dropping huge hints that you were a PR, I'll probably be more inclined to believe him.

Scum-SK I can see happening, but I just dont feel too much. Scum-Other scum I think is safely ruled out as there is no distinguishing Mafia on Ythill flip. When there are multiple scum groups, they tend to flip Mafia A or X Country Mafia. The only mod I know who does not do this is Empking. Also there are other ways that scum can deal with someone who softclaimed some info like I did, when you consider Fate was thought of more likely town and more loud then I was, the choice of him over me is not beyond belief.

Also lol, Saint is now apparently a

NK immune miller vig

Bulletproof-Bodyguard-Roleblock Distruptor-Ninja-Investigation Immune-Vig who killed the player everyone thought was town night one.

[LlamaFluff]

id be happier with WC or Seacore than MoI

Guess who you should be voting then? I will give you a hint - Its the Plutionian

Eh... What's the slam-dunk case against MagnaofIllusion again?

Someone link or quote me. I might be willing to compromise.

There aint any. People are just trying to get the lynch of scum and a PR at once here and there either are enough town sheeping or just being dense to start getting it through. MoI is NOT SCUM. His actions make zero sense coming from scum, yet the make perfect sense coming from town. You dont lynch the claim/counterclaim pair, you lynch the one that is scum, which is Saint.

MoI is just getting tossed aside because people are overly paranoid of what *might* be there as opposed to what *actually* is there. The case on why we should lynch MoI even though he claimed a role, that has ALREADY been proven to exist by him calling out Saint, is that he *might* be scum who *might* be a watcher or *might* be exactly what he already claims. Hell Sea *might* be scum because he *did* not push a case day one and *did* take an immediate turnaround on WC who he *did* defend throughout most of the early game. CASE ON MOI MAKES NO SENSE, its just stretch stretch stretch.

Which might is more realistic here people? Really. Follow the simple logic in that MoI is what he claim, because you are throwing a chain of what might be together to make it a weak case that is going to get a town role lynched here.

[LlamaFluff]

if we lynch saint and don't sacrafice can moi confirm himself via an extra kill? yeah? he should be able to right?

If we could unsacrafice yeah. I thought we arent allowed to though. If we can unsacrafice its obviously the right move to lynch Saint and sacrafice Sea to bring Apok back

Farside realizes now! Yay. We can still kill off two scum!

@KK - It takes a full night phase for the dead to come back in the game. Reviving Apok now allows him to submit a N4 action, if we wait its not going to be until N5 or later. The longer the game goes, the better it is to bring back good over strong-PR players.

@OGML - Sea lynch?

@Sea - Claim, you are at L-2 with at least two players showing intention to vote you (saint and OGML). Deadline is coming up fast, I dont want a slapdash deadline lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Saint is just lulzy at this point.

I still say the lynch of the basically-BP claim is the right one here. Still outright refuse to lynch MoI at this point. I actually dont see the play from Sea as play of a Bulletproof (essentially) player. As BP, you want to draw the NK hard and fast, especially if you really are "not" BP on night four. Sea just has coasted and flipped between lynches for the most part, and it wasnt until he started taking some heat that he started to crumb a power. I see a BP claim to try and take control of the game, and heavily throw down some information hints right out the gate day two. He did almost pure opposite of that. Actions dont match up with powers, I would be ok with a hammer at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont like KKs reasoning either, but it doesnt make the claim/behavior add up any less.

[LlamaFluff]

I know its hard to crumb a power early, but a few awkwardly worded phrases about how you "will wait to look at someone until that night" can work wonders. Even if you are "not good" at scumhunting, you really did nothing in the early game that would draw a kill, not even a try really. You just sheeped people more then anything else, which does nothing to draw a kill, and actually does the exact opposite.

[LlamaFluff]

I didn't want to draw a kill N1. I think that is fair and obvious.

Always forget that it hasnt been prime since the 19th century

Day 2 I had to compete with Fate for limelight. Like that was ever going to happen. So without being able to be the loudest. And without being able to really nail down scum and be a threat that way, I grabbed an opportunity when I found it and breadcrumbed an investigation role.

I guess my thing is you didnt even try to push a case. You just danced around a little bit of info, which got overshadowed by my cramming it down peoples throats that AGar was town.

And there's a chance it worked. Saint has claimed the only kill last night, so we're missing a scum kill. (Or saint is mafia and being weird which can't be completely discounted but is unlikely).

Or there was a doctor save.

So given that I may have been successful, I think it's a little bit rich for you to be saying I didn't do it right, just because I didn't do it your way.

Fair enough, but I dont see how what you did would likely have draw a kill over Fate taking the game over, and me wearing the neon sign that role info was present.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Not sure if I want KK over OGML right now, but I see what farside is getting at and need to reevaluate a little. Still dislike the MoI lynch though, but as Sea, it should easily be proveable.

[LlamaFluff]

I almost want to say OGML lynch to not have to worry about drawing out the final claim, but gut still screaming that OGML is probably town here. This is one I need to think about still and more.

[LlamaFluff]

fuuuu

I really dont know whats up here. Paranoia is actually making me almost wanting to just say screw it and lynch Sea still. Now, I really dont want to draw out yet another claim today, but I do see KK as more likely scum then OGML is right now. I like more people on the OGML wagon as comapred to the KK wagon, and while I dont like the LL vote from KK since he is a town read, I see that move as more likely to come from town then scum save a OGML-KK pairing which I would bet against.

Will try and do some heavy analysis soon here.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

I see the KK stuff, I do. I just am not overly confident on it due to how much getting an actual town read on ani has me confused on him. I think at this point I would vote KK over OGML simply due to my town read on OGML, I fail to see how continually asking to be killed is a scumtell (yes WIFOM I know) but when my top read is aggressively trying to oblige that deathwish, im not down for that one.

Sea >> KK >> OGML

Please come back now, the plan has a fatal flaw in it depending on a few things. This isnt a "oh it might give us a false result" its more like "this can cause a couple of mislynches" thing. If you think Sea is scum, follow me on this one. Its not like I can get away without backing it up in the immediate future.

[LlamaFluff]

Consider this vote permante unless something so horribly scummy comes from Seacore I can't deny the scumtude.

Over/Under on posts from Sea before deadline/lynch due to this - 1.1

[LlamaFluff]

Call me a sucker for things like that, but I cannot see scum trying to make themselves the lynch/sacrafice for now two entire game days. It goes against basically everything that makes up optimal scum play, and while I know as well as everyone else where there are situations where a specific scum player being lynched can actually help the town, the variance of players of the OGML makes me think that there really arent any players getting ready to reap massive bus posts at this point. A lynch of scum only helps scum when it gives points to other living scum, and there really hasnt been anyone down OGML throat enough (giggity) to make it seem like anyone would get the points for the lynch.

I dont agree with the way he is playing, or too many of his reads, but I do have a town read on him because I cant for the life of me see anyone who is going to take a OGML-scum lynch to the bank. Also the fact that he was trying to make himself dead when there was a SK alive. That makes giving town points to your partners even more dangerous, since putting yourself too far up there can actually make you a target.

I would vote him to actually ensure a lynch, but I have him as more likely town then scum right now. Just makes more sense.

[LlamaFluff]

@LlamaFluff - I'd also be willing to lynch Seacore. There's nothing about farside22's plan to clear Seacore that makes sense.

Wagon it up?

I would rather make it Sea-OGML duel wagons instead. More information there, especially since most of the OGML wagon was old-Sea wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

Thats three votes. Not a lynch. We need another four votes for that to happen, with any luck it happens fast as we are under 48 hours to deadline now.

[LlamaFluff]

Because thats how many we need to lynch Sea.
OGML still at L-1, the delay in "thats a lynch" made me think you were talking about KK hammering Sea

[LlamaFluff]

Hell .. Re-read the day again .. Maybe I'm wrong about farside and saint really is the SK

Anyway no way I'm hammering Seacore now ..

GG, I'm hammering your scumbuddy

Vote: OGML

Too bad thats not a hammer. You said OGML was town in your catchup, can you move to Sea-scum now? Also you are saying that GG is apparently powerbussing his partner who has been suicidal for two days? Dont buy that. OMGL is prob-town, Sea is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

let's look at wagons. we've got fucking MOI wolololoing around on ogml

Well MoI is town, so even though he is on the wrong wagon, that doesnt matter much.

seacore's got the LOL IDC sk on him as well as KK scum.

Yeah you forget the Saint has been voting practically everyone today? Until very recently he was stuck on OGML for a long period of time. KK again I really dont think is scum in this case.

ooba being wrong about everything? Ok, again I dont like the wagon on OGML, but thats just against him again. You got no reasons to shut down the Sea one, except that KK is a scum read. You just gave quite a few just as wierd reasons for OGML being a bad wagon. Multiple reasons > one, make the vote.

So you are basically trying to shut down the wagons, but the only thing you got against the Sea wagon is that KK is on it. Everything else is an attempt to crush the OGML wagon, which I am fine with you doing. I dont like that wagon much.

Sea is the lynch, hurry up and hammer and or bus him. KK wagon isnt happening.

[LlamaFluff]

Lyncher. I win.

[LlamaFluff]

Lyncher. I win.

Arrg.

You better just be fucking with Gaggle..

Yes.

Yes I am.

Although it would have been sweet if I wasnt.

[LlamaFluff]

Im still here, was just posting in another game.

Will wait for Sea to flip town before I believe that one. We already have seen one person modfying claims, im not going to put it past scum-Sea to be doing it again here.

The plan that im sure you are talking about farside would have been hard to identify what type of result got spit out, and given my confidence in Sea-scum, I just wanted that lynch today to make everything more manageable.

Not sure what more "discussion" you want at this point, we are just waiting for the mod. Will claim then.

[LlamaFluff]

If you don't know what you claimed in this game then I'm lynching you first thing tomorrow, if I'm dead I'm sure GG will agree with me on after a few words backstage.

Ive done a pretty good job at disguising my claim in this game I think, so you will be sorta surprised I think.

[LlamaFluff]

If you let scum walk out do to you being a true lyncher then I absolutely hate you and I will put in my desire to mods that I don't want alt winners (Jesters/lynchers) in a game ever after this game end whether your one or not. That is how much your "claim" has pissed me off.

Im seriously not a lyncher. Just was trying to screw with GG for the immediate "claim now" addition to his hammer which annoyed me a bit. If I was lyncher I would have just claimed something D2 to get Sea lynched instead of waiting a few days to do it.

[LlamaFluff]

Leave for a couple days and people just go apeshit...

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

Now, not that it matters much at this point, but I will throw out all results of mine since we are getting to the point where it can probably clear out quite a few players. BS players know how to take this so I wont claim 100%, but this is what I have so far apart from the N1 innocent.

N2 - SGR (now ooba) is not mafia
N3 - LMP is not mafia

Vote KK

[LlamaFluff]

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

More on the rest of this post when I have time but ..

FUCK NO

.

Simply put you don't get to take two obv-scum in Gaggle in OGML off the table. No dice.

And we aren't lynching KK today. Sorry, I have a bigger Town read on him than you.

Wow, im hurt.

I am taking GG off the table. I am also taking OGML and you off the table, and then im taking ooba and LMP off the table. This aint a buffet, there is a nice resturant with a menu and you can select only one item.

[LlamaFluff]

Elect Apoc, ooba, LMP

[LlamaFluff]

@KK - I dont have an innocent on GG, however I think if someone backstage is scum, its more likely farside than GG for reasons that I will go into during massclaim (save one thing that hasme paranoid but not enough to change my pushing). Again im being intentionally vauge but given my role, its best to be intentionally vauge, especially if the entire group backstage last night was town.

I just do not want a lynch of ooba, LMP, MoI or GG today. We arent lynching any of them, we arent going to sacrafice anyone. This really quick snap GG wagon just makes me uncomfortable.

What happened to yesterdays stuff? You wanted OGML dead, LL dead, now somehow the flips of Sea and AGar change all of that? I dont get it.

Ideal sac/lynch combo. Go.

[LlamaFluff]

@Farside - I didnt do a gambit because as everyone said backstage, it really wont help much.

Anyways, since farside decided to claim for me here. Im not the one actually doing the investigating here, I just have been getting a message at the start of each day saying that someone was 'not mafia'. I have zero idea who is sending it, or really what alignment they are. I just think that they are going to be amnesic given that it fits the theme of weaker roles (no full cop, full protector).

Its why I havent been fullclaiming, I was trying to draw a kill or even a roleblocker if there is one.

Will bring up more after classes.

[LlamaFluff]

LLama's COP is getting narrower. Claim your results. I'm really wanting to lynch you by now. OGML still town, just in case you've not been reading the game.

No result last night, as in I didnt get anything. No clue what that means, maybe amnesic got RBed or scum is toying with me.

Sacrafic MoI
Revive Vezok
Elect Apok
Elect LMP
Elect OGML

Amnesic should claim now.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh and seriously, why are we not reviving a power role? If we are bringing back vanilla, then yes we should be bringing back Fate. However since my result suggests a RBer, I want watcher/tracker around a whole lot more. Done making risks this game, too many myself already, Vezok is safe.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh and FTR Llama you never answered my question from yesterday about why you think I'm scum based on bs from the day before?

Secret reasons. I am going to be floored beyond reason if everyone who was backstage with me is town. I honestly cant see it happening. I have a strong town read on GG, a town read on LL, so its somewhat PoE. This is something that I will explain after amnesic claims (or not).

[LlamaFluff]

So it's all based on magic, smoke and theory.

Theory, tricks and a semi-gambit. When I go into another level of info you will see how its almost for sure that at least one of you three are scum.

You also refused and put to stop the MOI wagon based on his claim refusing to see the possiblity that was mentioned about a SK being targetted and a fake claim. Especially when you, LL and GG were like I don't think there is a doctor in the game.

Right, the

possibility

that Saint was a SK. If I knew that he for sure was a SK, then yes, a MoI lynch was acceptable, although I still say not the best. There was a chance that Saint was mafia, not SK, and as mafia, that he got caught by town-MoI. Even as SK, there still was a chance he got caught by town-MoI. MoI role worked as town, since a lynch of town power followed by immediate revive (circa Apoc) leaves us two days without the power, MoIs role gives town that power, so it made perfect sense for that role to be town with all the weak investigative roles out there.

[LlamaFluff]

Guys, seriously, vezok is the revive and not Fate. While Fate isnt a bad one, its a matter of confirmed town and confirmed town with a power. I have confirmed innocent in LMP, worse case scenario, vezok sheeps LMP.

Also formatting OGML.

[LlamaFluff]

Finally in regards to Llama he has no case so he's making shit up. That is why he is scum. He also isn't reading the thread, because I mentioned the day MOI was close to lynch the possible SK theory, which he ignored, then started the wagon on Seacore.

You are using that key word again "possibility". Not going to lynch someone who had a proveable result on a "possibility". You actually were the one heavily pushing that Saint was SK over mafia for reasons that I never really picked up, and that was a pretty odd conclusion to come to given that there really wasnt much to point in that direction, as anything from Saint was basically WIFOM after the resultant claim from MoI.

Nice to see you continuing to wait for a amnesic claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok. Consider this a "vote" on farside due to the presence of MoI out there right now. If farside is town, it will just result in a quicklynch and that is not something that we want right now ESPECIALLY with people being ditzes and not wanting to bring back Vezok. I somehow doubt farside is town though at this point. Time to bust this game open, again.

Anyways, time to really really claim, and to say why its obvious that at least one of GG/Farside/LL are scum beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Im not Vanilla, I actually am a gunsmith (like this triad of week investigative roles setup) and decided to just go with a gambit move in this game. I get has/does not have gun results, or roleblock notification blocks. My role name really is Jesse James, laughed a bit at that convienece.

Night one I did get a no gun on AGar, I picked him due to really having no good idea on where he was, but seeing that he would be useful as town, and could start a chain reaction of lynches as scum. Night two is where I decided to lie a little, I tried to target SGR just to solidify a town read, but I actually got roleblocked. Thats why I never really claimed a result the next day, just sort of stalled around saying I wanted to go backstage to explain everything. While being intentionally ambiguous during the day is when I had that idea of trying to gambit, why not make a move to test if the people backstage were actually scum or not?

So for those who dont know, I claimed that I was vanilla and getting messages during the N3-backstage. I figured that if scum was there with me, I actually might not get blocked. Guess what I got N3? A no gun result on LMP, I didnt get roleblocked. For some reason scum gave up blocking the player that claimed to be getting results, what better reason then they found out that I was not the role? That is why I think that we got scum backstage N3, and why I want farside lynched. I am sure enough that she is that scum that was there with me. GG is almost for sure town due to what happened with MoI, LL is just giving me town reads up and down. That leaves one player that can be scum, farside.

Now, last night I actually got blocked again. Im guessing MoI is exactly what he claims and watched me looking for the non existant amnesic, and then realized that I was just screwing with them and really was an info role.

So yeah, I took a big gambit in this game, and I think it has paid off. I managed to stop an AGar lynch, and I have been able to essentially say at LEAST one of 3 are scum, with it being nearly for sure the one who is coming after me hard knowing that something is up with my claim. Im not sure how much better this could have worked out for me.

~~~~~~~~~~

Also people, Vezok is the revive, not Fate. As much as I

love

begrudginly tolerate Fate, Vezok is better to bring back. We have a confirmed town alive in Apoc, we have confirmed town (save me getting unlucky with a possible GF) in LMP, we have semi-confirmed town in GG and my role. There WILL be someone that vezok can follow, and threaten scum given that he will have a role. Screw "better scumhunter", I want better role.

[LlamaFluff]

Well we have been able to "unsendbackstage" so its worth a try. Not actually sure the ruling on that one.

[LlamaFluff]

I wanna lynch llamafluff now. I don't think we have a gunsmith.

This. Also if Llama is claiming truth why didn't he "investigate" one of the 3 people backstage that he "believes" is scum.

When did I claim that I never tried to? All I have actually told you was that I got roleblocked, not roleblocked trying to investigate one of the people backstage or not. At this point you are the one who is reaching for points to try and get me lynched (also unless you AND LL are scum, odd say off backstage is better)

Vote Farside

@chess/GG - Another reason im happy with vezok back. Can confirm me.

[LlamaFluff]

Supposedly scum llama had this read from our backstage people Yet you "investigated" LMP. How much sense does that make.

I actually didnt know that people backstage were scum at that point, it was a test. LMP is a player like AGar who is a very strong scumhunter when they are playing well. If I could confirm someone who is lurking and has potential to be good as town, im going to do it. I needed to actually get an investigation result before I can say that someone backstage is scum.

You also avoid Ooba asking you why you "investigated" SGR or LMP. So do you have the balls to post why yet?

I already posted why I investigated SGR in my claim post. It was one of those reads that I wanted solidified since it would be one that I could base other reads off of (like Sea).

Also trying to pull up claiming PR meta farside? I only have claimed vanilla due to being almost lynched once or twice, in three years. You know as well as anyone else that I play worse as power roles and get run up. I think just using games you have modded back this up easily if you are going to try and use that last game.

@Apoc - I got blocked investigating WC last night. Im not trying to target the BS people because I have a town read on two of them, so figuring out the scum back there doesnt require wasting an investigation. WC is being pushed on by town read GG, so if he is town, its going to be a useful result to have as it will get GG on a better path. If he is scum, I could have been able to just join with GG for the lynch without having to claim today.

[LlamaFluff]

I already posted why I investigated SGR in my claim post. It was one of those reads that I wanted solidified since it would be one that I could base other reads off of (like Sea).

The lying scum is saying he investigated players he had a solid read on a player and never, ever had a scum read on.

Soldifiy - To become solid. I had somewhat of a town read on SGR after the flip from Apoc, but it was one of those that I really wanted to be sure on, so yes I used up an investigation there. There were points where I went back and forth on SGR, but I figured it was time to ice the slight town read on him and move on. You dont investigate people you have a solid read on, you investigate people that you have no read on, or people whos alignment is going to be pretty important for your next few moves.

He also seems to think that a VT claim BS would have saved him from death telling scum his role. Plus he says I didn't want to waste doing an investigation on the one person I had a scum read based on POE instead of verifying the read that is based on weak reasoning.

My VT claim very likely did save me from being killed, and it did allow me another investigation result, that a point for me. The last part has a bit too many pronouns for me to be sure what you are talking about, but if you are now going off on my N4 attempt - Im not going to investigate backstage because the only way that my odds are better of hitting scum is if you and LL are scum together. Otherwise there are probably three scum left, and knowing LMP was already town, and a town read on GG, LL and OGML, it gives me the backstage scum, and a pool of just WC off the wagon, which is going to be useful in making sure of a OGML read (and possibly LL), since town-WC means that one of them is scum.

There goes your arguement of "bad investigation" since WC alignment give insight to LL and OGML. While both of those two are probably town, WC-town would mean one of those reads are wrong.

Oh yeah baby I will bring up your fake claiming ass to show how you do it and why. It's when your caught and can't get out of a trap.

Funny I was going to say something similar. I gambited, you bit and pulled the block off me, probably used MoI to find out there was no amnesic, and are now right back to blocking me with the hope of not going down WITH MoI today.

Please your "I voted MoI" arguement too. After that hammer, he really had no real chance of making it too far in the game, you probably knew that, and im guessing he told at least one of you to bus him hard to get extra town points. That also explains how you "knew" that Saint was going to flip SK instead of mafia.

[LlamaFluff]

My VT claim very likely did save me from being killed, and it did allow me another investigation result, that a point for me. The last part has a bit too many pronouns for me to be sure what you are talking about, but if you are now going off on my N4 attempt - Im not going to investigate backstage because the only way that my odds are better of hitting scum is if you and LL are scum together. Otherwise there are probably three scum left, and knowing LMP was already town, and a town read on GG, LL and OGML, it gives me the backstage scum, and a pool of just WC off the wagon, which is going to be useful in making sure of a OGML read (and possibly LL), since town-WC means that one of them is scum.

Blah, blah, blah. You were the one who just claimed to have a scum read on me with BS people based on POE so why did you not investigate me that night?????????
Also if your not looking at the night kills lately tells me all I need to know. Did you notice a pattern for the kills Llama? Did you notice who the scum targetted? Why would scum target the VI's during the first few nights?
If you say you don't know I know your lying.

I needed to be blocked or not in order to actually know if my "scum backstage" theory was correct. In the event that I was not blocked, I already said that I wanted the alignment of someone like LMP over the ones backstage, since the people backstage were already limited to just three people, with varying degrees of town/scum reads. I would rather just have received the information of "some of three" and not know, while learning the alignment of someone who was lurking, and could easily come up a lylo lynch that could sink or save us knowing what he is. You cant tell me that if I didnt check LMP that he would have been a threat of being lynching in the future.

Also scum killed VIs... your point being? My best guess is that they could kill a town leader PR and dont want to deal with that resurection, like if I got killed by Saint instead of Ythill, thats a very dangerous role coming back since it has info AND it is confirmed town AND a scumhunting threat.

Soldifiy - To become solid. I had somewhat of a town read on SGR after the flip from Apoc, but it was one of those that I really wanted to be sure on, so yes I used up an investigation there. There were points where I went back and forth on SGR, but I figured it was time to ice the slight town read on him and move on. You dont investigate people you have a solid read on, you investigate people that you have no read on, or people whos alignment is going to be pretty important for your next few moves.

Investigating someone for a solid read again this doesn't explain why you didn't investigate anyone back stage to SOLDIY YOU SO CALLED READ ON ANY OF US THREE THEN!

See previous statement. You entire case is degrading to "you picked the wrong people by my standards". These are my standards though, and I would rather pick up the people that we dont have strong reads on. It nets far more information as lynches still progress naturally as no high picks are being taken off the table to further other reads of who is scum with lynches. What is going to get more information? Me clearing someone who is neutral to most people or me confirming everyones high pick is actually scum?

Please look at how inconsistent Llama is. First he says he picked people to Solidify his read, but doesn't explain why he didn't investigate any of the 3 people backstage to solidify any of those reads.

Solidify TOWN read, not scum read. I dont believe that gunsmith should scumhunt until late in the game when town has an obvious upperhand. Until then they take care of the middle read players, clearing and catching them as they move along.

Then instead of "investigating" someone he finds scummy to, you know, look for scum instead he doesn't and has not given a reason for why he find me scum. All he has is POE. He hasn't even explained his "town reads"

Thats not how you play cop, yadda yadda yadda. yes what I do have is PoE. GG is town, LL reads town, that leaves you at this point as scum. I can try and get stuff up over the next few days, but I have finals starting this Friday, so most of what I am posting just comes between classes or during some sort of break from final projects. Also its not really my job to explain my town reads unless they are getting lynched, if you think im wrong about one of the reads, its your job to prove it

For balance - Im not sure how it all works.

Scum obviously have a roleblocker, and with the three investigative roles in this game, I would expect some combination of GF/Framer/rolecop just a couple roles to directly counter the tirad of weak investigators. Especially as there appears to be no doctor in the game. Also im pretty sure MoI is going to flip exactly what he claimed as I already said, that is the only explaination I can come up with as to why scum blocked me again, they figured out that I wasnt getting results from another so assumed I was an active role. Four roles isnt really unbalanced in this large of a game with no protector.

[LlamaFluff]

hey so llama's an investigative role.

MOI claims some sort of weirdo role that can help town should they disbbelieve an investigation role. why isn't he fucking pushing him to absolute death. i'm serious, he should have rode him so fucking hard that magna was being called shergar by the end of the game.

Why? I dont get your logic here. A backup type role fits in with the weak type setup, as at most it will get to fire off one or two times, most likely zero or one. With a mixture of the result claim on Saint, leading to the lynch of a SK (not vig) it added to me thinking it was a town role, since what use for a gunsmith shot would scum possibly have? Like I said though, he probably is exactly what he claimed, and the result being accurate + my role was more then enough to make me defend the crap out of him.

[LlamaFluff]

i mean you see vezok you think 'oh okay' you see apok you 'o_o' then you hear MOI and surely you're thinking LOLK it's gotta fucking end somewhere.

Another one of the reasons I really didnt trust the Sea claim. It presented itself as an opportunity to both push my fakeclaim of amnesic harder and I thought he was scum due to not fitting the current pattern of the game, which was only investigative roles (which is what by default MoI was at that point, since only investigators were confirmed in game). I was thinking three investigators and a backup? No way anything is NK immune or protector past a SK. Sea just felt like NK-immune scum fakeclaiming. After Sea death I was a little less sure of MoI, but just the result mixed with the uselessness of gunsmith to scum made me think it made absolutely no sense for a scum role. Why give scum a role that had useless aspects to it?

[LlamaFluff]

Don't forget Llama also stated he was "trying" to get scum to target him but doing his claim day 1, but then switched it day 3 or night 3 saying he was protecting what he believed was an amnesic cop, then claimed gun smith, but refused to help the claimed PR prove he was town and proceed to vote a claimed PR he could have proved was town if he had an investigation like he claimed.

Given how hard it was to keep track of what I was doing myself, image the signals I had to have been giving to scum.

Your timelines are wrong. I never really put out anything about info until day two when people started "lol derp" wagoning me early on and I responded with more or less of a "lol no" hard crumb. That got me roleblocked (shocker), and I forced my way backstage. Backstage I decided to continue the lie about my claim, and didnt get blocked. Next night I was blocked again.

Anyways, I had my reasoning for Sea which I already kind of explained this page.

We had a confirmed tracker/watcher out there, I know my role, and I believed MoI because it was like all of our roles, excpet weaker because it required one of us getting lynched first to actually be of use. What type of role doesnt make sense in this scenario? Simple answer is anything that is not an investigator, such as a doctor, or in this case a commuter. From there I was stuck with a dilemma, either I let someone I think is town get lynched, or I lynch the person I think is lying about their claim. What better way then to continue to sell my claim AND get the person im pretty sure is BP scum killed then to just run them into the ground?

I mean, at this point farside-scum probably was a little confused about what I was doing since I wasnt too keen on throwing out results, but im guessing the scum team had me pegged as something along the lines of what I am. In that case, they could just RB me and whoops, there goes a chance to clear Sea! The only way I could have possible cleared Sea was if someone backstage with me was scum and they bought my amnesic claim, which is not something I was willing to bet, so Sea had to die then and there. Way to many risks, way to little reward, especially when I was convinced that Sea was scum to start.

Still waiting for people to weight in on this more.

[LlamaFluff]

The night before that Llama was supposedly stated he investigated

Now, im going back and forth between SGR, Sea and Apoc for votes right now. SGR I would love to vote if it wasnt for the early posts with him and Ythill, which do not read like two scum sniping back and forth from SGR standpoint, who would have had to just fly off the handle at something a more useful partner did. I just see it more as a town-scum scenario despite the later options open stance that SGR took.

He has a bit of suspicion according to this post on SGR I note this because he says today he fake claimed a result on SGR. Why fake claim on someone you have some suspicion about?

He would read as scuumy BUT there are major interaction tells that point to SGR-town is having suspicions about someone?

Please note that Llama before this post never mentions MOI or reason's why he is voting MOI.

Fine... Moi was scummy because he quick hammered Apoc day two without a claim in an obviously L-1 scenario.

Oh look lets clear MOI and say how town that role could be.

Not going to lie. I was convinced the role was town, and im still pretty sure he is exactly what he claimed.

Llama hemming and hawing of OGML. I believe this to be scum team by the way. He says OGML is town but null. He aslo stated he had a town read on OGML but when push came to shove could not respond to a reason and thus you have the statement above.

Are you using the arguement that I am scum because OGML is scum here?

I cant get behind a MoI lynch at this point.

We essentially have a claim-counterclaim situation

, where one of them is a whole lot more realistic. What I dont like is how many people are voting each of them, when the Saint-scum side is througougly busted at this point.

What I am seeing is a large group of people going to getting the scum lynch and the PR lynch all at once.

The sacrafice of Saint with the lynch of another is the best way to go about this, since it leaves most likely MoI-town alive, ends up with Sain-scum dead, and we get another shot at scum, which means we can do better then 1/2, which is the best we can realistically do with the Saint-MoI combo here.

In regards to the bold where was this thought process with Seacore when he claimed commuter?

Because the bold only existed due to the underlined.

Scum-SK I can see happening, but I just dont feel too much.

Doesn't explain why he doesn't "feel" it.

MoI as scum taking down SK-Saint wouldnt give him not-mafia credit. So didnt expect it.

There aint any. People are just trying to get the lynch of scum and a PR at once here and there either are enough town sheeping or just being dense to start getting it through. MoI is NOT SCUM. His actions make zero sense coming from scum, yet the make perfect sense coming from town. You dont lynch the claim/counterclaim pair, you lynch the one that is scum, which is Saint.

Wasn't Llama voting for MOI this day.....yup I quoted it above. So what happened to that suspicion from Llama, you know the one he never made a case on or mentioned when he voted MOI in the first place?

MoI claimed, role was obvious, it offset everything else. This seems to be one of your only points as much as it keeps coming back.

I know its hard to crumb a power early, but a few awkwardly worded phrases about how you "will wait to look at someone until that night" can work wonders. Even if you are "not good" at scumhunting, you really did nothing in the early game that would draw a kill, not even a try really. You just sheeped people more then anything else, which does nothing to draw a kill, and actually does the exact opposite.

Where was this question to MOI about his role? Why not ask him about any crumbs?

His role claim was solid and already backed up by a result.

I have to go to class now, so more later.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Not sure if I want KK over OGML right now, but I see what farside is getting at and need to reevaluate a little. Still dislike the MoI lynch though, but as Sea, it should easily be proveable.

Why would you unvote and say this if you were "RB" during one of your investigations?

Why not?

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

And here is scum with an way to lynch a PR without trying. Congrats Llama on pushing to lynch a town PR that scum would like to see gone more.

As I said, was pretty sure that Sea was a GF type role and saw this as a chance to get him lynched flat out by blustering about my role a little bit. If I was right on it, this would have been a genius move.

I see the KK stuff, I do. I just am not overly confident on it due to how much getting an actual town read on ani has me confused on him. I think at this point I would vote KK over OGML simply due to my town read on OGML, I fail to see how continually asking to be killed is a scumtell (yes WIFOM I know) but when my top read is aggressively trying to oblige that deathwish, im not down for that one.

Sea >> KK >> OGML

Please come back now, the plan has a fatal flaw in it depending on a few things. This isnt a "oh it might give us a false result" its more like "this can cause a couple of mislynches" thing. If you think Sea is scum, follow me on this one. Its not like I can get away without backing it up in the immediate future.

Still not explaining the OGML town read and keeps pushing him back to the pack.

Still not explaining how this is a tell.

I dont agree with the way he is playing, or too many of his reads, but I do have a town read on him because I cant for the life of me see anyone who is going to take a OGML-scum lynch to the bank. Also the fact that he was trying to make himself dead when there was a SK alive. That makes giving town points to your partners even more dangerous, since putting yourself too far up there can actually make you a target.

I don't understand this. Please explain.

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?

The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

With an SK alive (or any other anti-town), it can be a significant threat to scum. I should know, my death rate from other factions is my most common type of death as scum. Scum being self-sacraficial usually means that they are somehow benifiting the rest of their team, such as good town reads. With a SK alive, that can just attract kills straight to them, so a much more dangerous move on behalf of all scum alive.

Leave for a couple days and people just go apeshit...

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

Now, not that it matters much at this point, but I will throw out all results of mine since we are getting to the point where it can probably clear out quite a few players. BS players know how to take this so I wont claim 100%, but this is what I have so far apart from the N1 innocent.

N2 - SGR (now ooba) is not mafia
N3 - LMP is not mafia

Vote KK

Why would someone town clear a person they had a slight suspicion on day 2?

Another attempt to call me scum because I didnt make the "right" investigation? I already explained my reasoning to investigate LMP. I dont want to start repeting myself even more.

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

More on the rest of this post when I have time but ..

FUCK NO

.

Simply put you don't get to take two obv-scum in Gaggle in OGML off the table. No dice.

And we aren't lynching KK today. Sorry, I have a bigger Town read on him than you.

Wow, im hurt.

I am taking GG off the table. I am also taking OGML and you off the table, and then im taking ooba and LMP off the table. This aint a buffet, there is a nice resturant with a menu and you can select only one item.

Aaaaahhhh how cute. Look at the scum MOI trying to talk with his scum partner in game. Llama even states a bit of suspicion in his post but doesn't follow threw with it.

This is not suspicion towards MoI, this is just trying to keep someone I have a town read on in line.

More questions to Llama: If you believed MOI was town at the endo of the day 3 why did you not elect him to go BS? Same question about day 4, why not elect him to go backstage then?

He wasnt one of my top few choices on either of them.

What happened to not lynching MOI and finding him town to suddenly (without a reason anywhere) sacrificing him?

Given that MoI had CLAIMED SCUM at this point, you are now officially grasping at any straws possible, and im guessing not reading the game in context but just isoing me looking for anything that you might be able to make into a tell.

Lmp and GG where backstage with me Night 1 when ythill commented that he believed Llama was a PR that day do to the weak claim he had on day 1, which all of us BS talked about.

Also on Night 3 while BS that Llama is neglecting is he claimed he hinted day 1 to draw a night kill to protect the "amnesic cop". It was also for those who lack memory skills or the desire to go back and read that I voted for llama day 2.
Ythill had made his statement Night 1 and seeing Llama alive did not make sense to me. Why would scum keep alive someone they believe is a PR? Now Llama is claiming he was RB night 2 because of his little WIFOM show. Why would scum not RB him night 1 if they believe he was a PR, but RB on night 2 do to a claim?

No clue. Maybe scum had a strong PR read on someone else, you are going to have to ask Ythill about that one after the game is over. Again you are getting timelines mixed up, never breadcrumbed (that I know of) during day one, that was all day two.

Now, last night I actually got blocked again. Im guessing MoI is exactly what he claims and watched me looking for the non existant amnesic, and then realized that I was just screwing with them and really was an info role.

how does this even compute if MOI used his 1-shot watch against Fate?

Your right, forgot it was one shot. I was just trying to come up with any reason that it could be otherwise. Maybe scum have a rolecop, maybe scum have a watcher/tracker, hell if I know. How is this a point against me again though? You are just commenting on things now.

Also scum killed VIs... your point being? My best guess is that they could kill a town leader PR and dont want to deal with that resurection, like if I got killed by Saint instead of Ythill, thats a very dangerous role coming back since it has info AND it is confirmed town AND a scumhunting threat.

And this was the theory I had and stated I believe Night 2 to those BS. See this is why I asked why he that a VT claim would save him. It doesn't because scum were being smart I believe and not killing who they believed were PR's because of the rez ability for the town.

Ok so there is your response as to why I didnt die night one even though Ythill thought I was a PR. Simple enough

@LMP - I have no idea how my role is counteracted this game. Maybe there are some wierd scum PRs that directly counters my role like some type of a framer + GF, or this takes a mechanic that ive always wanted to try (scum investigate innocent until they have performed a kill in a PR heavy game).

@LL/WC/GG/Apoc - Make a stance time. This thing with me and farside is just going to run in circles.

And now im late for class... again.

[LlamaFluff]

@LMP - I have no idea how my role is counteracted this game. Maybe there are some wierd scum PRs that directly counters my role like some type of a framer + GF, or this takes a mechanic that ive always wanted to try (scum investigate innocent until they have performed a kill in a PR heavy game).

But all of that could be accomplished with a regular Cop. My understanding of a gunsmith is that they are a cop that gets guilty on vigs. But we don't have a vig this game.

Yeah its what im confused about right now too.

Maybe I would have got a guilty on Saint, maybe there is a framer type role, only thing I feel comfortable ruling out is this is bastard modding and no one has a gun since I dont think Jahudo would do that. The +2 amount of investigators makes more sense though given the cap on revives, it forces us to actually choose which roles are the most useful instead of just blind revives since there is no way we would revive a commuter over a info role. This has to balance somehow, and I think we wont know how until we get more flips, although I would bet we are looking at at least one exotic scum role due to the amount of investigators.

[LlamaFluff]

He would read as scuumy BUT there are major interaction tells that point to SGR-town is having suspicions about someone?

So you told us backstage to tell people he was town in case you died because....???

Because I took the gambit a little too far in that situation, but it worked like a charm.

Fine... Moi was scummy because he quick hammered Apoc day two without a claim in an obviously L-1 scenario.

Oh that was all your vote was about and you didn't look at the interaction between Ythill and him. Any reason why not?

That reasoning was solid already. Why are you trying to make me waste time at this point by creating a case on someone who has already claimed scum?

Not going to lie. I was convinced the role was town, and im still pretty sure he is exactly what he claimed.

Why? You just got through on day 3 convincing everyone how town he was based on a possible extra kill for the scum. So why would you believe it now?

Because of his watch ability. Also due to think I would expect just MoI + 2 more (you + WC?)

Are you using the arguement that I am scum because OGML is scum here?

I believe Llama town that votes for lurkers but calling OGML town based on his play = Llama scum.
I also believe OGML is scum. He's not even trying. I also explained based on Ythill and his unvote of day 1 on OGML I could see coming from scum trying to save his scum buddy.

So you have never seen me get a town read on someone who most think is scum for what appears to be no apparent reason to most and just go balls out defending that player? I KNOW you have seen me do that before, probably as both mod AND player.

MoI as scum taking down SK-Saint wouldnt give him not-mafia credit. So didnt expect it.

Say what? Scum taking down SK helps the scum team. Town taking down SK helps the town. It's null at best.

*shrug* I just dont see scum starting a PR claim like backup that they are going to possibly have an amazingly hard time backing up for the rest of the game instead of just trying to force a case on someone that they apparently knew was scum.

MoI claimed, role was obvious, it offset everything else. This seems to be one of your only points as much as it keeps coming back.

No it doesn't. There is a rez that offset weak PR's (as you call them, not my opinion).

Theory difference =/= scumtell. Chance of MoI ever getting to use his role was very low, and town has to wait a long time to actually get the PR back, who likely just gets NKed off again. Look at the resurection of vezok, we already dont get a result until day seven from him. A backup compensates for the slow revive ability.

His role claim was solid and already backed up by a result.

Which he could have faked. The correct results is lynch both (since we could) to see who was lying.

Correct move is to lynch the one you think is scum. If you have I got a guilty in this game night one, would your response be "lets lynch both?" no. Thats a stupid move. You lynch who is more likely lying, and if you lynch wrong, sacrafice them the next day.

So I've been thinking, and the problem with the Gunsmith claim is that usually gunsmith is supposed to be a weaker version of a cop (ie they can get a false positive). But in this game, we haven't had a vig right? We only had an SK. Which would make the gunsmith a full fledged cop. In other words, in order for a gunsmith to exist, there must exist characters who show up positive but aren't scum . Otherwise it would just be a cop with some inv-immune scum.

So if LF is a gunsmith, where are our false positive players? I hope this makes sense.

Much sense. I know if you read the game I linked (which I created) there was usually a false positive (at least I felt with many of the roles).

Like I said, there can be things like framer to create false-positives (which there may be given how much farside is trying to make me investigate specific players) or GF type role to create false-negatives. We dont know what is there to offset my role until later, with no apparent vig or cop, it allows for a bunch of odd roles that I have considered using in my games in the past (framer that perminant frames, scum that always is innocent unless killing, etc).

As I said, was pretty sure that Sea was a GF type role and saw this as a chance to get him lynched flat out by blustering about my role a little bit. If I was right on it, this would have been a genius move.

Ummm unless I missed something somewhere doesn't all mafia carry a gun? Where is it stated that a GF would not have a gun?

GF usually investigates innocent to all types of cops, including gunsmith. I would be stunned if a GF investigated guilty to me.

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?

The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

Why would I have said anything pro or con backstage? What do I gain from alerting three players (at least one of whom is scum) to who im about to investigate? LMP was a good investigation, he is a solid player who really was regarded as null to most players, meaning the result on him is extremely useful late in the game.

Another attempt to call me scum because I didnt make the "right" investigation? I already explained my reasoning to investigate LMP. I dont want to start repeting myself even more.

No your saying you wanted to solidify a read on a person . I'm asking why would you not solidify your read on MOI after day 3 and what happened if you believe he was town over LMP.
Oooohhh another question with a question. I really love seeing scum stalling.

So am I seriously scum now for not using the EXACT same reasoning behind my investigations every night? LMP was someone I saw lurking and as a decent player, I wanted that alignment that night, so I looked there.

Going to change my mind on one other thing too about revive given what I just said

Vezok we wouldnt get back with a result until D7, if vezok is still alive. Given that we are probably a day out of a lylo situation, im actually going to do a 180 and say Fate back can do more instant damage to scum, also due to what I know about revives. See the UPick-ish game I just ran, two VI-ish player die early, get revived about 50 pages in and just did nothing until they died again. I think Fate would actually be better here.

unrevive
Revive Fate

@Other - MAKE A VOTING STANCE ON ME OR FARSIDE

[LlamaFluff]

Vote WC

Got has gun.

[LlamaFluff]

I kinda wanna lynch LLAMA first anyway I think.

Please.

If I am scum lying, im going to get auto-lynched tomorrow. I am scum telling the truth, still what? I would need to survive two more lynches, which sure as hell isnt going to happen.

[LlamaFluff]

So Mr. Llamafluff you want to explain why you switch your rez from vezo to Fate during our little argument yesterday when you bitched to Apoka about the having a tracker in the game?

Its what I said, vezok would not have a result for a long period of time, and likely just get insta-killed during N7. Figured that with your lynch we would be at worse case scenario down to two scum, and Fate would be more likely to get it wrapped up than vezok and his maybe result would be. I realized that vezok would only be a factor if they werent instantly nightkilled, while Fate is going to be some sort of a factor either way.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh and also, I was completely right about scum being backstage with me, just was wrong on who it is, so my gambit DID work.

Just need to say that for all the haters of it out there.

[LlamaFluff]

pity that if you were town you decided to fucking argue with the wrong one.

It is isnt it.

Thoughts on what I said about how WC is the lynch already?

What is my scum motivation for that claim in any situation?

[LlamaFluff]

what would you have done as scum then?

Hell if I know. Probably depends on my role and any other scums role if I wanted to fake a guilty, fake an innocent, or give a truthful result.

[LlamaFluff]

well ya see that's the thing, you're pretty much fucked either way as scum so why not fake a guilty? you'd probably have been lynched without faking one, farside's fairly hungry for your blood.

Again, how the hell is it going to benifit scum if I fake a guilty someone who is in the lynch pool? What do I do here as scum? Lets say im with OGML which money says farside is all up about right now, I lynch WC-town with a fake, I get lynched, OGML gets lynched right after me. No benifit. If WC is scum with me? I get him lynched, maybe get someone else lynched, and then I basically am forced to pull a guilty on an obv-town player to somehow win.

It ISNT happening, there is zero way I can win this game as scum by pulling out results.

What IS happening is that im what I claim, scum probably were more afriad of Apoc confirming lynch-bait me as town so went for him first, and now we are where we are.

[LlamaFluff]

WC is either scum with you and your hoping for town point.

Wherein everyone is cleared/innocent going into F3

WC is town and your hoping to buy the scum team one more day.

Wherein I get auto-lynched the next day leaving a F3 of OGML-GG-???, only works here if I am with GG (lol really?)

Your the last of the scum and just hoping to weasel your way out and kill off all the confirmed townies before and hope to win in the end in a lylo situation.

Wherein I get auto-lynched tomorrow and lose

Take your pick for any of the above.

I pick all three. None work, all end in me getting lynched in various lengths of time.

[LlamaFluff]

Elect Llama, GG, Fate

So Llama if there is 2 scum your view is that it's OGML and WC then?

Yeah thats the only team that makes sense, really doubt its WC-GG. I already have my check for tonight decided to in order to tie up any possible loose end.

[LlamaFluff]

So Llama, why the gambit?

I wanted to get unblocked. If it worked, not only did I get unblocked, but I also probably picked up a trio of players in which scum had to exist. Worse case secnario, I got blocked again essentially clearing GG/LL/Farside. Only way it could have entirely backfired was if SGR/ooba was scum AND one of backstage people were scum, quite the longshot.

I still am actually still super giddy that it worked so well.

Also as socked I am by OGML seeming to be scum, I think he has to be at this point. Only way he isnt scum is that WC is last scum, or that its WC-GG. Anything else really means scum have a manipulator role, and with a GF flip, im sure enough thats not happening.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm dropping the hammer today, obviously. Have we massclaimed?

No, because I have a guilty there is no point in it.

[LlamaFluff]

WC claimed some 1-shot bp bullshit backstage

and I loled and called him scum

That + My Result = Why is this day going?

Farside for the "whats going on with the PRs???" that has suddenly silenced - You really think that a bulletproof along with a commuter makes much sense once you factor in the three investigators?

@Fate - GG is probably town, and with a result tonight it should all be wrapped up.

[LlamaFluff]

Like I said, its going to be wrapped up tonight either way.

Rather me call you "somewhere between LMP and OGML"? That sounds ruder then prob-town.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama you woulf gunnsmith Gg tonight over OGML?

I would. Just incase shenannigans im not going to say if I AM or not, but I am going to check one of them. If I get a no gun on one, other is last scum.

[LlamaFluff]

How can you possibly think Gg is not confirmed town?

Slowrolling scum?

I am not arguing that GG isnt near for sure town, in the offchance that he IS scum though, I would prefer to know that outside of lylo. Surely you can agree that if we reach a three player endgame with him being scum and me just coming in with a guilty, he is more likely then not going to win.

[LlamaFluff]

And I'm still waiting for an answer from Llama on why scum would not hammer for the win yesterday? What would be the point of not hammering for a scum win?

I actually completely missed the fact that GG posted when you could have been hammered, thought you were out of range, so yeah, he is def town too.

WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE REZ AT THE TIME YOU DID KNOWING IT WOULD PUT THE REZ IN A TIE, WTH THE VOTES SHOWING 3 ON ME SO THAT SCUM MOI (WHO WAS OBVIOUS SCUM) WOULD NOT BE SACRIFICED BY THE END OF THE DAY?

To bring Fate back, figured making that would get him rez'ed faster then actually saying ok lets rez Fate, now lets wait for two to be on at the same time, etc etc.

Also you were scum, so why would I care if you got quickhamemred? MoI lives and gets sacraficed the next day.

[LlamaFluff]

To bring Fate back, figured making that would get him rez'ed faster then actually saying ok lets rez Fate, now lets wait for two to be on at the same time, etc etc.

Also you were scum, so why would I care if you got quickhamemred? MoI lives and gets sacraficed the next day.

If I got quick hammered without a rez scum win. Why wouldn't you care about that?
IE: MOI was obvious scum I was no case in place scum in your view and POE scum in your view.
Your switch to put the tie into place between Vezo and Fate looks like opportunistic scum hoping no one will notice and waiting for their scum buddy to quick hammer town.

Game haddent ended with both of us being up, so it basically confirmed that you are scum to me. You get lynched without MoI, that still lynches scum, so we move on from there to just sacrafice him the next day.

Very simple.

[LlamaFluff]

Streak intact!

lol this game really, more for it later.

[LlamaFluff]

NO DONT STREAK INTACT ME

DONT STREAK FUCKING NOTHING

Still havent lost as scum without a cop hitting me in almost two years same game which ended my streak of not getting lynched without a cop. When you include that over two accounts, im proud of that one.

Anyways, this win was very unexpected but I have to hand it to WC for making that move which I thought was pure suicide there. Just was so... convoluted, sort of proving that the addition of confusion to the town is one of the best tactics for scum. You do have to admit that scum should have won back on day five though, I had two townies with me and another on the edge, without the error I think we would have pulled off an eventual win.

Interesting mechanic, really created a few tactical headaches for scum.

[LlamaFluff]

AT LEAST GIVE US THE FUCKING SCUM QT.

FOR HAVING THIS LOSS ROBBED FROM US RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES, IN A LYLO THAT WAS A TOWNIES WET FUCKING DREAM WITH TWO RESPECTABLE PLAYERS AS TOWN ALIVE AND AN OBVSCUM "LOOK AT HOW YTHILL TRIED TO POWERBUS ME AND NONE OF MY BUDDIES EVER LOVED ME" HISTORY.

If no scum say they dont want it public I will in a day or so. Just like letting people keep it quiet if they want to.

[LlamaFluff]

I still want to know why I died?

Part of it was the night 3 backstage discussion where farside wanted to lynch you. They figured if you died that night it would seem as though scum were not part of that backstage group, when in fact both Locke and Llama were backstage (with farside and gaggle).

Also, Llama softclaimed his fake role that night backstage and said you were not mafia. That happened before farside said you still should be lynched.

I was still pushing for ooba over you though because of farside. Farside is a decent player, but despite outward appearances, entirely predictable. I think if I would have got lynched with AGar alive, the reaction would have been similar to the one that killed OGML. I guess it wasnt a bad kill, I just think a post flip from me ooba/SGR stood a better chance of not taking flack than AGar did, especially depending on remaining playerbase.

I got voted down everyone to me though.