American Gods Mafia - Game over

[Seacore]

vote:farside22

[Seacore]

elect Ythill, Seacore, Locke

[Seacore]

I just want to add that I'm primarily a 9-5 PST poster on the weekdays and mostly offline on the weekends.

Is there a particular reason you mentioned this?

unvote. vote Locke

unelect Locke

[Seacore]

Wrath. Stop defending yourself.

If you are town, and I have no significant read on you yet, but if you are town you are doing no good in defending yourself. You are going to make the next 5 pages all about you and waste our time.
Instead, scum hunt. If you are scum, your scum hunting should suck, and we'll catch you. If you are town, actually do the town some good.

Also, 0/0 is not 100%, but that's a separate issue.

[Seacore]

Wrath, you'll have to get over that. It's a common tactic/style here at MafiaScum. People will post declarations with little evidence, and it's either because they're reaction hunting, they're being coy to trap their target, or because they're a jerk.
I generally agree, comments like that don't help me, so I ignore them. I register them as X said Y was scum at some point and then I move on. I suggest you do the same.

[Seacore]

Ythill, I used to get burned like WrathChild is when I first joined MS. MS has it's own memes and differing from them earns you scum points. I was primary lynch target Day 1 in my first several games, and I've yet to be scum on this site. So I'm not too worried about.

But WC has earned scum points for a huge gap of logic in his last post. If I thought those actions were a scum tell, do you think I would just accept it and move on? No, it's a null tell, as I've said it's just a playstyle. If all we had to do to find scum was look for people not even attempting to provide evidence, it would be pretty easy.

Still, Locke is winning in scum points.

[Seacore]

Also, in future, try not to put your own comments inside the quote boxes, it gets very confusing, your fixed post was perfect.

[Seacore]

@Seacore:

If you were more worried about manipulating people into seeing you as town then you were about finding the scum, then those D1 lynches were well deserved.

[

Except that it came from a different gamestyle rather than 'acting scummy', and town got lynched, which is not good for town.

Better that we tell WC what he's doing is scummy, watch him like a hawk while prodding him to actually scum hunt, and look for scum elsewhere.

Like Locke, who should know better than to pretend to find suspicion when somebody identifies when they'll be absent from the game. Oh wait, he does know better, as I've modded for him before.

[Seacore]

elect farside

If you've gone to that effort to clear somebody with you scum and them town, well done. Also, remind me to do that if I'm ever scum.

[Seacore]

I see Locke responded much earlier to my concern about his comment to WC about his schedule. I missed it, and I thought Locke not responding to it was a bigger scum tell than the original comment.

But he did respond, my bad.

as such

Unvote.

But maintain a slight FOS, I still think it could be scum looking for an easy angle.

Instead, I will jump onboard the Ghostlin train, he looks scummier than he did in No Exit Mafia, where he was town.

Vote Ghostlin

[Seacore]

I'm assuming it's Chess making most of these gaggle posts, (except for the last one, that reads like Faraday) but it's been ages since I've actually played with Faraday, rather than just have him as my best mod buddy.
So I really want to vote Gaggle right now, but I think it's just that Chess looks scummy, which I saw in [Redacted]. Farside isn't coming off scummy to me at this point.

I'm happy where my vote is. I think I'll wait for an MoI catch up post.

And I really agree with Gaggle's last post. "Weird", "Interesting" and etc should not be used in this game. It's not necessarily scummy to use them, but it's anti-town as hell.

[Seacore]

Pretty certain she's scum, but I'm more interested in seeing where an AGar wagon can go first.

Oh, I want to vote OGML just for this post.


Also, FaraGaggle, it's not the opinions that made me think it was Chessagaggle posting, it was just the style. It was very reminiscent of recent tunneling attacks I've seen him do. At the moment, Gaggle v Farside is null read v null read for me. I'm more interested in a Ghostlin lynch. And I'm going to do some rereading and see whether I'm interested in an OGML lynch.

Considering he was the only one vote voting for so long and decided to start a bandwagon rather than join one that he felt was "pretty certain"... feels like scum. Could even be scum with AGar, but thats with not having a read on AGar.

[Seacore]

I just did an ISO of OGML and it's moderately scummy.
There's a lack of scum hunting, there's rhetoric without cases. There's a lot of fluff.

I think OGML is scum. I think OGML could very well be scum with AGar due to two points. 1) AGar is on his list of "if SGR flips scum, these people are scum" there's no info there, so it could just be some light distancing. 2) He votes to start a wagon on AGar, knowing AGar isn't going to be a lynch today, but this way he can say "hey, I try to START a wagon on AGar ages ago, he can't possibly be my buddy.

But that relationship isn't based on whether AGar is scummy, I'll look into that lately.

So at the moment, I'll vote for Ghostlin or OGML, whichever has a larger wagon.

[Seacore]

At the moment, Farside and Gaggle are going to be backstage with Ythill and I.

Dear god.

I have no problem with either being in there, but it's the both. It's going to be this back and forth business that we've got going right now. Perhaps people want to consider that with their elect votes. Perhaps a few less votes for Gaggle, a few more votes for Llama.

Speaking of which, I'd like to hear a lot more from Llama

[Seacore]

Unvote

Vote OGML

Choo choo!

[Seacore]

Right when I get suspicious of Seacore for defending OGML,

Did you read my post, the one that you quoted? I think OGML is scum. I stated I was happy to vote for either Ghostlin or OGML, whichever bandwagon was bigger. I have since moved to OGML because it got more steam. This is not the same as an FOS on a scum buddy because I clearly stated what conditions would change my vote. And then (albeit after your accusation) I followed them.

[Seacore]

MOI, while most of the conversation can wait til tomorrow, after an OGML flip, I do see potential distancing between AGar and OGML, I think they could very much be scum buddies.
In my opinion, AGar was never at real risk of being lynched today, so OGML joining apok and vezok on the lynch is really not proof of him wanting to lynch AGar.
Similiarly, AGar was the first vote on the OGML wagon. That's a great place to put your vote on Day 1, so you can yell about it mid game and say you always thought your buddy was scum. OGML also tried earlier to establish "suspicion" on AGar with his " if SGR flips scum these three people are scum" post.
So there's a case there, and I don't find anything strange about Apok seeing it.

[Seacore]

Meh, people who agree with me are always town

[Seacore]

I thought you didn't post your town reads?

More votes on OGML people, let's have an early night.

[Seacore]

I thought you didn't post your town reads?

He's already done it on at least one other occasion this game itself. Did you not see them in his earlier posts?

I was being flippant, which yeah, I should avoid doing, but I was distracted at work.

[Seacore]

I really don't like long Day 1s, they dilute how effective these early bandwagons are because all somebody needs to say is "hey, we still have crap long, lets try something else" and knowing somebody can do that means the wagons are much less informative.

I'm not really interested in this AGar wagon that is around. Apok seems to be basing most of it on connections that can't be confirmed yet, Vezok is vezok and OGML is my number one scum pick. Ythill being on it doesn't change my mind, the wagon is crap.

[Seacore]

Although Nexus's reactions to the OGML wagon are pretty scummy and if Nexus is scum, it's unlikely that OGML is. But that's the only thing that's giving me pause.

But that pause will have me jumping back to Ghostlin

[Seacore]

MOI is scummy.

This was my gut reaction too, however, look at Aqua Teen Hunger Force Mafia .

Apart from being a case study in terrible games, MoI was town there and came off very similarly. He asks lots of questions of people more in an attempt to gauge reaction then to find answers.
Arguments about whether it's effective or not (and overall I tend to find MoI effective in all roles) aside, he's hardly displaying scum-only meta here.

If you've got more on the case of his scuminess then I'm all ears, because like I said, it was a gut reaction too, but one that I made myself check.

[Seacore]

@LMP, my vote for Ghostlin is hardly a bus. I have stated that I will vote for whichever wagon is larger. I have completely stated my motivations, and what my actions will be in different scenarios. I sat on Ghostlin up until the point that enough people were willing to lynch OGML. The moment this wagon dries up I'll jump back. There's no stealth or secrecy in these switches, I've stated my two scum reads, have openly campaigned for the lynching of both and have been transparent about it the whole way through.

How is my jumping from one to the other different from Ythill's? Except for the fact that he also jumped off OGML?

[Seacore]

Okay, but giving me scum points for something that somebody else did is circular.

Why is it scummy of me to do it but not scummy of somebody else? Because I'm scummy.

I'm content with the other scum points I earned. I knew I'd earn coaching scum points from at least somebody for the way I dealt with WC, I'm just sick of those kinds of arguments taking over D1, so I stepped in. But that's fine, I accepted that when I wrote it.

But giving me extra scum points because you already have a scum read of me is dumb.

[Seacore]

Unvote. Vote Ghost

I'm not as interested in a Nexus lynch today as a Ghost lynch. Can we all please pile back on the Ghost wagon.

People to lynch (in a vague order)
Ghost
OGML
Nexus
Animorph
Agar

People to ignore/vig
Saint
WC
Vezok

Null/Town reads (no point in breaking these up for the time being
Seacore
Ythill
GG
Farside
MoI
LMP
Llama
LL
Apoka

[Seacore]

@Ythill - LMP certainly. I wasn't too happy about some of his reasons for thinking I was scummy, but LMP is quality and sufficiently in both your categories to elect. If I'm replaced by LynchMePls I'm only upset because I know I'm town and I don't know if he is, but that's fine.

Saint however, should not be in the second category and I'd be horribly insulted if he was elected instead of me.

[Seacore]

Ghost's replace is a null tell, since he posted the exact same message across at least one of his other games.

That being said, the slot is still scummy

In the mean time I'd rather lynch OGML than anybody else, but nexus or ani will do. I could even stomach a WC lynch.

[Seacore]

I'm still here. I just have nothing to say with everybody going v/la or jumping ship.
I don't think WC is scum, but I'll lynch him at deadline as a VI and not feel too bad about it.

[Seacore]

Hey look, more posting, yay.

I'll read through it all with a bit more care later today.

But I noticed two things addressed to me.

@Saint - RE why would town-seacore post that? Town Seacore (which is the only seacore there has ever been) always posts his plans and motivations so he can maintain transparency. So I'm stating that I do not think that the WC lynch will provide a dead scum. And I'm stating under what circumstances I will contribute to that lynch. This is what I do in all my games all.

@WC - Re why I call you a VI. Okay, maybe VI is harsh depending on your interpretation of it. You're not in the same category as, lets say, Furc, who is a player who is terrible, never tries to improve and actually makes the game harder for whichever team he's on. But you're making some really illogical statements. Ythill and others are interpreting them as scummy. I don't see them as scummy so much as just wrong. An example can be found in the same post you complained about being a VI in.

The way I see it if you get someone labeled VI the less of a chance they have of being revived, which would obviously be the goal of the mafia, get people dead that others won't revive.

This is wrong. You are claiming that scum would have a motivation to 'establish' a player as a VI, thus discouraging town from reviving them should they die.
The following things are wrong with that.
1) If a town player is behaving scummy enough to be lynched, they are also more likely to be not being helpful to town. Therefore they are unlikely to be revived.
2) If a town player is playing like a VI, scum will not NK that person, so they are unlikely to be revived.

So, if I was scum, declaring you a VI would be pointless. If I was worried about you, I'd just NK you (but please with targets like Ythill, MoI and LMP out there, you are not getting NK'd) or I'd contribute to your lynch.

Here is how reviving will actually work. Night 1 someone awesome will be NK'd. Night 2 someone else awesome will be NK'd. When it appears the game is two days away from ending we'll sacrifice poorer players (I'm looking in yours and vezok's directions) and return these awesome players to life.

Your lack of understanding how sacrifice and declaring people to be VIs will work is one of the reason I'm calling you a VI.

*awaits more of LMPs claims that I'm coaching*

[Seacore]

wut?

[Seacore]

I totally missed that Saint was Furc. I will not longer bother to respond to that slot.

[Seacore]

Mostly skimming. In 619 I was just bitching about furc without knowing he was in the game, he's my go to VI for examples of terribad. I thought it might be the case for others too when I was reading about furc.

[Seacore]

Ythill, I kind of have to agree with the others. Early wagons for wagon sake may be helpful. Particularly when we're low on information and it looks like, just maybe one of those people may be lynched.
However, the moment we've found some decent wagons, IMHO Ghostlin and OGML both fit this category, jumping off them to go and deliberately wagon somebody else to "see what shakes loose" isn't as interesting. That's why I didn't follow you. I found enough suspects for my Day 1 and I don't think declaring "I might come back to this lynch but first I'll go and place fake pressure on somebody else" is going to provide useful information.
I don't think you're scum for it. I don't think others think you're scum for it. But thats why I didn't follow you.

Did anybody explicitly say that Saint = Furc? I saw people mentioning Furc, but I see people in other games mentioning Fate and other notables when they're not in the game, often taking their name in vain.

Also, I want to not answer Furc, because there's no point. But I'll do it this once more.
Furc, I don't see how anything in my answer to you is me appealing to the town rather than answering you. I've also seen your ability with the English language, and it's incredibly lacking. This is not a slight, it's probably not your first language and having two is better than me, as I only know English. Still, please try not to base your reads over your interpretation of my grammar, because your interpretation is wrong. There is nothing in my response to you to imply direction to the town rather than to you.

[Seacore]

@WC.

FACT: We have two sacrifice/revives
LIKELY FACT: We will wait until late game to use the revives. Most likely Lylo and the day before lylo, if that can be determined
LIKELY FACT: Unless we are extremely bad with our lynches, that means that revives won't be used until Day 4 and Day 5.
CONCLUSION: Scum will have killed 3 players by the time we use sacrifices. Another 3 players will already be dead from lynches.

We will pick the most awesome of those 6 to revive.

If we get nervous we can always do one revive on Day 3, meaning we're choosing from 4, but whatever.

Your argument is that by labeling you a VI, I'm enticing the scum to kill you instead of an awesome player, because we are just going to revive that awesome player and leave you dead.
Scum, if you're listening, please follow this plan. I will accept town points for promoting it.

[Seacore]

Actually, I've got a free moment at work, so I might put down some maths. I do this. Ignore it for the time being if you think it's too early to have the conversation. I'm putting it here more so others can build on it if they wish, but I can also find it no matter what computer I'm on.

18 players.

CASE 1: 1 scum team, no 3rd party with kills.
Assume 5 man scum team
Assuming successful NKs and all mislynches, Lylo, or Mylo actually, occurs D4.
A vig who can't aim speeds this up, failed NKs decreases this.

CASE2: 1 scum team, no 3rd party with kills
Assume 6 man scum team
Unlikely, Mylo would occur D3 under the same condition. Seems unbalanced but I suppose it can't be completely discounted.

CASE 3: 2 scum teams
Assume 2x3 or even x4 man scum teams
Lylo isn't so much a risk anymore although there are other problems

CASE4: 1 scum team + SK
Assume 5 man scum team.
This could be a problem with lylo, but at some point the SK is going to have to turn Vig if the town is doing that badly.

Conclusion: In most cases, waiting until Day 4 for sacrifices is fine. If on Day 3, everything has gone south for us, we can re-evaluate.

[Seacore]

@mod

If a player in the Back Stage is killed, and then revived through sacrifice, do they return to the BS?

[Seacore]

Yeah, I thought it was more permanent than that, just re-read it, so my question can be ignored.

[Seacore]

Anything you guys want to share from backstage?

I am so surprised about vezok being NK'd.

Elect GG. Elect Farside. Elect Seacore

I'd like to know why you think Llama, I'd be happy with a OGML lynch until then

vote OGML

[Seacore]

Yay, lets play out guess the mod!

And lets follow up that by reviving one of the biggest VIs in the game.

Alternatively we can try and win this.

unvote. Vote Apok

OGML, if you're useless, we'll just ignore you until we need to sacrifice you to bring back somebody that is actually good for town.
I'm happy to do that with the added bonus that I think you'll flip scum when we do.

[Seacore]

Farside, there are two sacrifices in this game.

I don't want to waste one on reviving Vezok. With Ythill dying, we won't hit lylo til Day 4 at the absolute earliest. So we can wait until tomorrow, probably until D4 to do it.
But we certainly aren't going to do it when Vezok is the only person we can revive.

It should also be noted that Ythill spoke FOR using a sacrifice/revive today.

[Seacore]

Using it on a PR is a waste of time, unless they died without revealing results.

If we revive Vezok. Vezok comes back D3, announces "I tracked X on Night 1, he didn't go anywhere" Vezok then, most likely, dies N3
If we use it on an information role that has had 3 or so nights of actions, then that would be well spent.

I'd rather use it on competent scum hunters. MoI or LMP die and don't flip scum, we bring em right back.

[Seacore]

Not much to say at the moment.

I noticed MoI has had a swipe at me for being surprised that Vezok was killed.

I'm not surprised that he flipped town and I never said anything of the kind. I'm surprised he was NK'd.
Look at "No Exit Mafia", look at the Mafia Discussion thread started by The Jester about that game. Look at aCoK which you played in. What about Vezok makes him a good NK target? He's terrible at scum hunting, he's marginally active. Thus it's a surprising NK, regardless of flip. I wasn't saying it to 'earn town points'. I'm saying it because Vezok is always never a good NK choice and therefore something is fishy here.

[Seacore]

I think you'll find that Llamafluff is indeed in this game.

[Seacore]

He's rather high on the lynch list, yes.

If you didn't realise he was playing then you probably didn't catch that he was in the Back Stage with Farside, Gaggle and Ythill. Farside and Gaggle are moderately suspicious of him because Ythill pressured him but didn't approach voting him. Given how much Ythill jumped around, it's a concern.

Still, I'm also happy with an Apok lynch.

[Seacore]

Ah, the L's confused me. Either way, you seemed to suggest that Ythill had a scummy connection to Llama.

Secrets? shit damn I wish I had secrets

[Seacore]

Yeah, I'm happy to drop it if both you and Farside are willing to, I was just trying to bring up to speed somebody who didn't realise a player was even in the game

[Seacore]

Really Farside?
Didn't I play Percy's Cults of Darkness and Shadow with you? Wasn't that a mini-theme of 6v3v3? Even if I'm entirely misremembering that (which I might be), 12 v 3 v 3 is entirely doable. Or are you overlooking that because you know you have more than two scum buddies?

[Seacore]

Ah, it was Faraday not you.

Anyway, my point is still entirely valid

What about 12 v 3 v 3 is unbalanced? Nothing that I have been given in my PM or in the rules suggest that it can't be two teams. So that suggests you have more information than I do.

[Seacore]

Reasons for raising a tracker:
1. Maybe they tracked somebody last night and have good information
2. Late game they can track more effectively

In response to raising Vezok against these points
1. I don't trust Vezok to have tracked anybody particularly informative, I've watched Vezok as a mod twice now and I've yet to see anything insightful.
2. This assumes we can keep Vezok alive long enough to deliver the results.

In conclusion, we definitely don't raise Vezok tonight, we most likely don't raise Vezok later because a) someone better will die and b) Vezok will likely fall over dead immediately.

Anyway, Fate and Llama, do either of you have an opinion on Farside's assumption that an 18 player game cannot have two scum teams?

[Seacore]

Well until that's an actual claim by you, and I've missed it if it has been in the past I still think it's interesting that Farside has immediately come to the conclusion that a 2 scum-team game would be unbalanced.
If she's looking around her QT and sees 4 or 5 other players, then this would make sense.
But 2x3man scum teams, or even 2x4 man scum teams could be perfectly balanced and I don't know why she didn't think that.

I think I might have to investigate Farside a bit closer.

[Seacore]

Fine, I'll drop it for the time being. But I'll be watching...

In the meantime we should totally kill that Apok person.

[Seacore]

@Saint, certainly not, soft claiming is for wimps

@WC, there's no real point in discussing any of it, however a vig is unlikely as Ythill did not seem like a very good Vig shot.
However, abandon the Llama lynch, Gaggle have claimed secret knowledge that makes it unlikely. That doesn't mean LLama is cleared, it just means we should leave it alone today. Find scum elsewhere.

[Seacore]

Yes, that was my first taste of Faraday, and it burned like a spicy fire.

@Farside
Do you mean why I'm certain that there are two scum teams in this game, or certain why I think two scum teams can be in a balanced 18 player game

Because I'm not certain there are two in this game. I'm simply objecting to you ruling out 2 scum teams.

Scum did win in that game, but that was because scum were being pretty awesome and the other scum were pretty lame.

Faraday and I have designed a game with 2 scum teams. A Clash of Kings. Scum won there as well, but that's besides the point.

2 scum teams can be balanced, easily. Is it more swingy? Yes. But still balanced.

In fact, there are arguments to say that 2 scum teams can be more balanced because they enable the current 'winner' to be teamed up on. I.e. If town is winning, scum will stop trying to cross kill and aim at town. If Scumteam A is winning, scum team B will try harder to cross kill, etc.

[/mafiadiscussion]

The whole reason I made a song and dance about your comment was that you discounted 2 scum teams being an option because of balance. I think there is a chance this was a slip because, if it was a slip, you know how many scum are on your team, and therefore know there couldn't be two equal teams.

I don't know if there are two scum teams. I don't think two scum teams is any more likely than a vig or SK or a scum team with two kills with one being misdirected in some way (heh, okay, the last one is a stretch, but I like my examples in threes). And actually, I think a vig is possible but unlikely. All I was hunting down was why you were making assumptions.

But I'm done with this conversation for now.

[Seacore]

So we are going to completely ignore (apart from Gaggle) the hammer without a chance to claim?

vote MoI

elect gaggle, seacore, locke

[Seacore]

Well don't worry KK, Farside didn't mention either until a bunch of us brought it up. In fact, she didn't mention it until she could make a case on you for it, and instead voted for two other people.

[Seacore]

Ah okay, I completely take that on the chin then. I skimmed over the sacrifice votes because I'm still trying to decide what to do about it, and only read the comments and lynch votes.

Sigh, now I have to decide whether to sacrifice or lynch MoI...
I'm probably for a resurrection at this point. I just wish our PRs had flipped on stronger players, making the choice easy.

Farside, if I join you on the sacrifice AGar wagon, will you join us on the lynch MoI wagon?

[Seacore]

By the the way Secore any reason your not trying to resurrect a town PR today? What excuse do you have for today for not wanting it?

Ninja'd

This game woke up during the weekend. I don't have large amounts of mafia time over the weekend and most of it is spent reading the game I'm running, discussing the rules with Faraday and laughing

at

with people in the graveyard thread.
I do more mafia time during my working week, which started 30 mins ago.

Sacrifice/Resurrection is a unique rule and thus I give it more time and thought than lynching, which (unless I think we're in mylo or worse) I throw down without worrying too much.

[Seacore]

Sacrifice AGar.
Resurrect Apoka

[Seacore]

This explain back stage stuff is bullshit.

We cannot have the game run by 4 people. Some stuff needs to come out. I don't care if it's Gaggle's clearing of me, or Llama's clearing of AGar or Gaggle's clearing of Llama, but this game should be played at least somewhat in the open. I don't trust llama and I don't trust farside. I'm not saying either or both are scum, but that's 50% of this Backstage team that I'd prefer not be there. The game is not going to be played completely back there.

Llama, I'm not saying out your results or whatever it is that you think you've found, but these one liners of "no, I'll say why backstage" are not helping this game's day game.

It's also is a fairly sneaky way to get voted back stage again.

[Seacore]

OGML

While I see that you generally agree with us, so you want to swap your vote and sacrifice so that it matches with the rest of us? Or if not, why not?

[Seacore]

That's nice, but what you've done hasn't actually moved us towards killing AGar or MoI. If you reverse the two, it will. See what I mean?

You are currently alone on each of those wagons, making it fairly ineffectual. If you swap, you'll be bringing us closer to the majority.

[Seacore]

Ah, I knew there was something I was going to explain but MoI's superhammer stopped me from being able to.

I never ever ever said there were two scum teams.
I never ever ever said that it was my most likely of scenarios
I never ever ever argued against an SK.
I did argue slightly against a Vig, but I'm still open to it.

I pointed out that you wrote off the possibility of two scum teams because you believed it couldn't be balanced in an 18 player game.
I pointed out that it would be easy to balance two scum teams in an 18 player game.
I then suggested, with suspicion, that scum-farside might have looked at her 4-5 team mates and said "there's no way there's another scum team this large, so there can only be one scum team".
If scum-farside did see that, I believe your post was a slip.

That being said, you've brought it up again, so that's making me feel a little better about the situation.

But in summary. I never said there were two scum teams. I just didn't like the smell of your rejection of the idea.

[Seacore]

I'm not going to get into a "are games with two scum teams balanced" conversation with you. Our opinions have no relevance in this game. Of the two games I quoted , one was a mini of 12 players, the other was a large of 25 (I think, how many was it faragaggle?) So 18 falls inbetween and precisely into neither.
Particularly in the large, it wasn't unbalanced, town played really badly, scum played really well.

But anyway,

your comment, which was

Looking at the amount of players that started the game I'm having trouble seeing how the mod could have 2 scum teams without be terrible unbalances.

So are we too few to have two scum teams or too many?
If two scum teams is always unbalanced, why the specific reference to the number of starting players?

This is what pinged my scumdar farside.

[Seacore]

That's fair Farside, and to be honest, that's what I've been hunting for this whole time. Also, your willingness to bring it up again as i've already mentioned.
I disagree with your read on the 3v3, I think it's fine. It's swingy, but scum teams are pretty good at scum hunting since they have more info to work with. The resurrection improves it even more to make it less swingy. In fact, two scum teams make resurrection even stronger, since they are likely hunting each other (if town is losing) and will 'leave it to the other team' to kill the resurrected player.

But that's fine. I'm not trying to have a discussion where we outguess the mod.
I was trying to determine "why" you wrote off the two team possibility. You've given me your reason. I'm mostly satisfied. It took scum-farside days with a Night of QT to come up with a response that didn't reveal your scum-slip, but town-farside was probably just feeling unhelpful/misunderstanding what I was asking.

I'm completely done with this line of thought, are you?

[Seacore]

On the topic of AGar.

Some of it is gut. He seems lurky and scummy with no real effort of scum hunting.
Some of it, I agree, is his reaction to my attack on you.
Hilariously, I think he could either be your scum buddy throwing a bus comment, or scum hunting for a future mislynch. Either way it didn't feel "I agree!" it felt opportunistic.

Also, have a look at his ISO #31, his thoughts on whether there is a protective role. That doesn't feel like town thinking about doctors. That feels like scum trying to puzzle out where the doc is.

He could also really be scum with MoI. His case on MoI? "His day phase wasn't impressive". I mean, there was more wrong with MoI's day one than that. But he sits there and the reluctantly gets off because a town read tells him to.

[Seacore]

unsacrifice AGar

Okay, I'm willing to go with Llama on this one. I'm happy with the level of claim. He's some how the recipient of knowledge, but doesn't want to declare how that happened. D3 that is fine.

Gaggle, you say Saint is not town. But it's Furc. he's just anti-town by nature, any reason why you think he drew a scum role rather than just his usual delerium? I mean, I'm fine to sacrifice him to get him out of the game, but I'd rather aim at somebody scummy.
At the moment, I'm starting to find LMP more and more scummy. I've seen him as town, as a mod, and he's usually better than this.
The 'scum points' he's finding on me, imo, are terrible.

His last point against me is me complaining that 4 people running the game based on what is said backstage without providing any information to the rest of us, is scummy. Really?
But fine. I'm not invited backstage. I obviously can't contribute as well because I don't have all this "secret knowledge". I hereby proxy my vote to Gaggle. The least scummy of people who have been backstage.

I await Gaggle's sacrifice vote and then I'll move mine there too.

And Gaggle, backstage has totally stopped a bunch of us scum hunting. Because we see scummy actions in thread, we start to make some votes in the direction, and then one of you guys says "oh no, I have secrets, don't vote them, I'll explain backstage"
I completely agree with AGar on this. Ironically, since AGar looked scummy to me until somebody said I couldn't vote for him.

[Seacore]

Yeah,
I mean, number of people I'd otherwise be voting/sacrificing but I'm being told I can't is 3.
First OGML, then Llama, then AGar.
Now I'm not saying I'd be right, but I'm feeling pretty crippled in my scum hunting. I mean, vote analysis kind of goes out the window when vetos are flying around.

[Seacore]

MoI is typically away on weekends, so he should be back shortly. But a prod might help.

[Seacore]

Furc, are you disagreeing that we need to raise Apok today? If you are then you should make a case for who should be sacrificed instead of you
If you think we should wait, make a case for that.

But if your argument is just that we should leave you alive, good luck doing that without claiming.

[Seacore]

actually,

unvote

just to ensure we get this sacrifice right before we get a hammer.

[Seacore]

I don't trust Furc to understand the set up to the extent that he can determine if a Roleblock exists.
That being said, I agree that an RB is likely given the ability to resurrect.

Gaggle, iso 134 you claimed that Saint was scum, now you're saying he's town. Please confirm.

[Seacore]

I'm willing to sacrifice LMP or Saint at this point. But as I declared, I'm looking to gaggle for direction.

[Seacore]

KK, as WC has pointed out, and I think he's right, the ship has sailed on "IF" we resurrect today. We have already reached the threshold for resurrect votes. Now we have to decide who to sacrifice.

Also, Apoka only has one result, since she was lynched D2.

[Seacore]

anybody else think we have a win/win opportunity here?

Independent of MoI's claim, we all thought he was scum, and are prepared to lynch him for it.
However, he's claimed a guilty result on Saint.

So we lynch MoI and sacrifice saint.
Neither claimed ability seems incredibly pro-town. Saint's ability is random (and I agree with the doubt shown, but lets not waste time on outguessing the mod. Faraday, you should know exactly how much out guessing the mod is worth)
MoI's ability is effectively random, and could in fact be a scum ability even if he's telling the truth.
I started waffling there a little, so lets summarise
Neither should be kept alive soley because of their claim (unlike, say, for a doctor)
MoI's result claim means he's either lying, in which case he's the best lynch
or Saint's scum, in which case he's the best lynch.
We have two lynches.
Hell, we can always bring MoI back, that's why we're lynching him and sacrificing Saint.

sacrifice Saint

[Seacore]

AGar, while i"m normally against answering other people's questions, KK has answered this. He believes Apoka breadcrumbed an LMP watch.
I disagree that it's a firm breadcrumb, but he has answered that question.

[Seacore]

Now, I ISO'd Apokalyptika. The only watcher-breadcrumb that I could see was this:

I'm a bit surprised to see that it came from LMP, since I've had a generally town read on him. Still, IGMEOY.

Which looks like she's clearing LynchMePls.

AGar, here's the post.

[Seacore]

I have some thoughts about going from 2 kills to 1 kill. But there are so many possibilities, none of which I have more evidence for than any other, so there's no point discussing it.

After tonight, depending on how many kills there are, we can at least begin to work out what happened.

[Seacore]

OGML, given that MoI is going to be lynched, would you mind switching your sacrifice vote to Saint. Or provide a good reason why not?

Also I'd like Locke and Gaggle to chime in on who should be sacrificed, given they are pro resurrection.
I could care less about KK's disagreement with the plan at the moment. I don't find it particularly scummy, I just disagree and will find my voters elsewhere.

[Seacore]

I completely disagree with that line of thinking for a number of reasons, farside.

1. I've both seen and done it, with minor characters getting power roles. Sometimes a minor character fits a role better. In a Clash of Kings, Faraday and I gave a 1 shot BP to the Greatjon. A character that has maybe 12 lines of dialogue in the whole series.

2. The role fits the character perfectly as somebody else, WC I think, has already said. It's been a little while since I read it but I believe they eat the liver and heart of the dead people? It's fine for them to get their power from who died recently.

3. Who the hell in the book counts as a major character?
Shadow. Wednesday. Any more? I'd love to know how Ibis doesn't qualify for a PR in your books but its okay for one of the Zoryas to be a watcher.

In summary. The claim is fine. I think it's entirely possible it's a scum role. I remember the mod saying that scum would be determined randomly, and given that Ythill flipped a non-character, maybe all the scum have fake-claim characters that match. But thats unimportant.
MoI is being lynched based on his behaviour. And Saint is being sacrificed partly on his behaviour and partly as a back up for if MoI is telling the truth.

[Seacore]

Ninja'd by gaggle.

Well gaggle, if you want to leave saint alone, I'd like you to say who we should sacrifice.
If MoI is telling the truth but isn't scum, saint might be scum. So it makes sense to sacrifice him now.

Not to mention that if MoI flips scum, we'll argue back and forth tomorrow about whether we should trust his call on Saint, even though they could just be scum and SK. Lets just lynch him now to be done with.

[Seacore]

v/la for the weekend (Australian time). I read along on my phone, but don't expect too much posting unless I find time to jump on a computer.

[Seacore]

OGML, quality player

At least we have tomorrow's lynch taken care of.

[Seacore]

Back from v/la

Glancing around it seems we have people departing the MoI wagon... oh and jumping on mine, okay.

Yeah, granted my "ogml do this" "ogml did this, he's bad" looks bad at a glance. But asking somebody if they will do something or to provide reasons why not is not the same as hammering without thought. Also, I find it interesting that OGML claims to have always found me scummy and yet was willing to follow my request to sacrifice saint. But saint is going to die and that's great.

At this point I'm for either a MoI lynch of an OGML lynch.

[Seacore]

I'm okay with not lynching MoI today as long as it's understood that even if Saint flips scum, that does not clear MoI. I've seen gambits in the past and cutting Saint out of the remaining scum is a fairly cheap gambit in my books.

@Farside I'll give you my list a bit later when I've had a chance to write it up. Busy at work this morning

@Locke I assume you mean my D1 voting for you. I was actually very interested in your response, the problem was that I missed it. I had my vote on you all that time because I thought you were ignoring my concern. When it was finally brought to my attention that you had responded I took the vote off

[Seacore]

Llama

Please explain why this is not possible

MoI is being attacked for being scum and it's looking like a likely lynch.
MoI then says "I'm a better player than Saint, I'm going to sacrifice Saint, for myself, for the greater scum good.
MoI then outs Saint as scum, argues for Saint to be lynched instead of himself
Saint flips scum (not SK) and MoI is a hero and we raise him upon our shoulders and never discuss lynching him again.

[Seacore]

I've only been able to skim because of some real life shit that's got in the way. Wife in hospital level shit.

However, I'll try and respond to some stuff.
First, MoI, you've misunderstood what I said. I wasn't comparing my "please sacrifice. Ooh you sacrificed, you're scum" to you. I was comparing it to him. OGML. I asked him if he would be willing to sacrifice Saint. He then immediately hammered Saint in the sacrifice. No comments, no case, no request for full claim. Not just that, but at a glance it seems he hammered on my say so. And I'm on the top of his scum list.

My scum list at the moment is
MoI - For the stated reasons ie hammer, convoluted claim and the way he's been playing.
OGML - Mostly the way he's been playing all game.
Llama - His defence of MoI has been pretty heavy, and while some may see that as a "they can't possibly be scum together, it's too much defence" some of the defence feels to me like "you can't consider him being scum for THIS" as in, we've caught him for the wrong reasons
LMP - I've seen LMP play town, he's great at it, he's got some strong scum hunting skills. I haven't seen them in play here.

[Seacore]

Not llama's case so much as I've just been suspicious of seacore for a while and this is finally an opportunity for a wagon on him to actually go places

We're lynching this into the ground when Seacore flips scum.

Also, this. Isn't this one of those classic moves where Scum declares that his buddy is scummy assuming that a townie is also scummy. So that when the townie gets lynched and flips town, the case evaporates but the distancing remains.

[Seacore]

Oh, I forgot I unvoted.

Vote MoI

[Seacore]

Has SGR been prodded? If so he needs to be replaced.

[Seacore]

Yeah, fair enough.

I'm Sam Black Crow, I'm Human, I'm one of my favourite characters in the book, oh, and I'm a Commuter. I commute on prime numbered nights, which I thought was a pretty cool little twist given the theme.

That's what my little fake soft claim was about during day 2. About watching and investigating, etc. I was trying to pull a NK. Maybe I got one? Given there was only one kill.

Hang on....

Saint. You're claiming SK. You're claiming the Ythill kill. Have I missed (granted I've been skimming because of RL shit) where you claimed your N2 target? You said back when you were still fake claiming that you visited Fate. Did you? Was that the person you killed N2?

Anyway, apart from that, there's not much to my claim. I'm safe again tonight, but if I'm still alive N4 I could probably use a protect...

[Seacore]

Yes, the hitchhiker chick

MoI, from memory I believe when I said the claim was fine, I was referring to the connection between character and power. That was the main point farside was objecting to your claim on. Also, complex role "copying the powers of those who have recently been lynched the day before" is not the same as a role that has a standard name and just acts on an interesting timing mechanic. Commuter is a standard, if infrequently used role, it generally acts on odds or evens. I don't think it makes it that different or more complex to act on Primes, it just ties it in with the mysticism of the setting.

LMP big surprise you don't believe me.

KK, okay, I'll say that I didn't see that post in mafia discussion, which is true but I don't expect you to believe me, but lets move on.

Let's say I'm lying. Which of these two is true?

1) I'm scum with Gaggle. We discussed the power. Either I actually have the power role, after which he was inspired to create a vig using the same mechanic. Or he told me about his idea with the vig and I created a fake claim from that idea. Either way here Gaggle is also scum, do you believe this is true?

2) I'm scum, Gaggle isn't and I saw that a player in this game came up with the idea for a role based on Primes and then decided to copy that power, despite the fact that that player could say "hey, I just made that up the other day, are you copying me?"

WC, yes, the hitchhiker chick.

[Seacore]

That's a pretty stupid gambit.

Hi I'm an SK, based on my actions and role I'm completely indistinguishable from a vig, but I'm declaring myself anti town

*scum and town alike move to kill player*

Actually! I'm a vig! Now I've learned something!

Seriously? What has this gambit informed you of?

[Seacore]

What? Day 1 I wasn't immune, so I waited until Day 2 to breadcrumb. I tried to make it look like a genuine if poorly done breadcrumb of investigator. Both Saint and Farside spotted it and I've got a feeling I did actually pull N2 kill. At the very least it's a possibility, so to say that I didn't play my PR properly is a bit premature.

I think that might be why MoI and LMP, and you to an extent (as all three of you are scum reads for me) have come after me so hard today, because you failed to NK me last night.

As for the accusations of coasting.
1) I'm not a strong scum hunter, my record for finding scum is pretty damn shocking. I'm better at organising, ala SAIII. But have a look at some of my past games, this is pretty much as good as my scum hunting gets.
2) RL is an absolute bitch at the moment, something that Faraday can attest to. I'm not pulling my weight at all in running aSoS mafia.

[Seacore]

Anyway, none of that is going to persuade Llama.

So, prior to death, I will say that my list of scum to down is as follows (assuming Saint and I die today)

SCUM
MoI
LMP
OGML
Llama
SGR
Farside
AGar
Wraith
KK
Gaggle
Locke
TOWN

[Seacore]

I didn't want to draw a kill N1. I think that is fair and obvious.

Day 2 I had to compete with Fate for limelight. Like that was ever going to happen. So without being able to be the loudest. And without being able to really nail down scum and be a threat that way, I grabbed an opportunity when I found it and breadcrumbed an investigation role.

And there's a chance it worked. Saint has claimed the only kill last night, so we're missing a scum kill. (Or saint is mafia and being weird which can't be completely discounted but is unlikely).

So given that I may have been successful, I think it's a little bit rich for you to be saying I didn't do it right, just because I didn't do it your way.

[Seacore]

I'm not saying I did draw a kill. I'm saying I may have. I'm objecting to the idea that a point against me is that I was really bad at drawing a kill when I may have.
And yes, I can't exactly compete with somebody who has an ACTUAL investigative result. I certainly didn't want to fake claim a result that would clear somebody, even somebody who I think is town, I just don't roll that way.

Also, I didn't have a case to push, I was bouncing around with some suspicions but every time I pointed at somebody, somebody else would clear them, usually using back stage as a justification.

And as the son of a maths teacher: 1 is not a Prime! (Flashbacks to a 9 year old Seacore arguing with his teacher on that point)
As a side note, I think the prime thing is pretty cute actually. Assuming a game doesn't go for way more days than is normal it works out as about the same as an odds or even mechanic.

[Seacore]

Also, just one more thing.

I think, and I could be wrong, but I think you may be implying that IF I'm town, I've been deliberately behaving in a slightly suspicious way as opposed to obv-town. That's not the case. I usually get found suspicious most of the game, often ending up as prime lynch candidate. I'm not happy about it, and it's something I am kinda working on.

[Seacore]

Yes, my definition has always been, Primes have two factors, themselves and 1.
1 has only a single factor, making it a unit. And disqualifying it from being a Prime.

[Seacore]

KK, while you're here, will you respond to me, rather than just to Farside?

Am I stupid and am borrowing from a scum buddy's idea?
Is my scum buddy stupid and posting an idea based on my (potentially fake) claim?
Or am I stupid and am borrowing from a town player's idea?

Because if I'm lying, somebody is being stupid.

[Seacore]

EBWOP

Oh wait, I see that you've canceled out one of those three options

So I'm either stupid and have borrowed from my scum buddy's idea
Or I'm stupid and have borrowed from a town in this game's idea

So I either was willing to link myself to my scum buddy or I made up a fake claim that I'm assuming Gaggle would remember posting and catch me on?

[Seacore]

Unless more people are willing to jump on MoI, who I still want lynched. I'm going to make a move.

Vote:LMP

I just ISO'd his 43 posts since he replaced in.

Many of them are rhetoric against me, he had a few points against me early on but since then it's largely been "Seacore is scum!"

Many of his other posts are fights with WC, who's a pretty easy target.

The remainder are fluff, like his prime number post, and *cringe*ing about other people's posts.

I've seen LMP in town mode. Look at aCoK for somebody that really took charge. Similar in No Exit Mafia. This is scum LMP.

There's also an interesting little bit in his big replacement post in which he whines at Ythill for derailing the Ghostlin wagon. If scum don't have Day talk that could easily be a little message for Ythill to jump back on a wagon that he'd support.

In short, lynch LMP, he flips town. OGML and MoI will show up as even scummier and then we'll have caught most of the scum.

[Seacore]

oops

unvote. Vote LMP

just in case that matters.

[Seacore]

Farside said the claim didn't fit, in relation to the character he said he was being a minor character and one of two and some other things.
I posted to say that the PR claim fit the character claim sufficiently. Seriously, look at the farside post directly before mine for the context of what I said.

I did not state, either way at that point, whether I believed the claim. I said that I still found MoI scummy, and that if the claim WAS real, it could still easily be a scum ability.
I don't usually go in for much 'out guessing of the mod' however we've seen some fairly straight forward powers. Tracker, Watcher, Commuter.
I would argue that Commuters are almost never 100% commuters, they are usually either Even-Nights, or Odd-Nights, or Active-on and then off. To me, making it Prime-Nights is a flavour touch, not complex mechanics.
So here we have MoI making a relatively complex role claim, others have argued that it doesn't fit and I've been swayed towards that, particularly in the face of aCoK in which I've seen some very convoluted fake claims.
The only other person to claim a complex power has been Saint.

In conclusion: MoI is scummy regardless of his claim. If his claim is true it fits a scum power set perfectly. However it's more convoluted than others and could likely be fake.

[Seacore]

Okay, you see it as a limited universal back up, I see it as a scum reward for mislynching PRs.

Maybe I was unclear. I think MoI is scum. Therefore if he's telling the truth about his power, I think it's a scum power. And, looking at that claimed power, I don't see how it's necessarily a town-only power. So, to clarify. I don't think his power makes him 'more scum'. I just don't think that, even assuming he's telling the truth about it, it makes him more town?

And yes, I will flip as Commuter. Not "modifed commuter' or 'prime number commuter' or anything else. Commuter.
But I'd still argue that my role is a standard definition Commuter. It's just the on-off that has been definied. Sometimes it's activated by choice, but it can't be two nights in a row. Sometimes it's even nights, sometimes it's odd nights. This time it's prime numbers.
If the game goes for 8 nights
Even night commuter N2, N4, N6, N8 = 4 nights
Odd night commuter N1, N3, N5, N7 = 4 nights
Prime night commuter N2, N3, N5, N7 = 4 nights

So it's the same, a little closer to odd night commuter obviously, but still, I wouldn't say the role would work differently, or need to be defined differently. The same way that getting the "cop" role doesn't tell you whether you'll get "Innocent v Guilty" "Mafia v Not Mafia" etc It's straight up Cop and the mod decides exactly how it's gonna work.

That's completely different to this "limited universal backup" claim.

[Seacore]

The limited universal part?

Also, SK is a fine place to put a complex role. So is scum.
Also also, trusting anything St Furc says is worse than playing outguess the mod

[Seacore]

That you are restricted this to two options with no credence given to other possibilities I find scummy. For example, you could be using a Mod-provided fake-claim that was prepared during game creation which well pre-dates Chesskid’s post. You yourself say that it fits the mystical flavor of the source material. It could be an odd coincidence that Chesskid posted that same mechanic that Jahudo made for this game. That you are trying to limit the scope of possibilities in an manner that is stacked towards you being automatically Town is scummy.

I'm speaking directly to KK in addressing his concerns. He is saying it cannot be a coincidence, therefore it must be one of these three (and then when he discounted one of the three) two things.
Obviously it's a coincidence, it is my actual role that was given to me well before chesskid posted in a thread that I haven't read, but KK was unwilling to accept that so I was trying to make him follow his logic to it's faulty ends.

I don't see a Back up, limited, modified, universal, one shot or otherwise, making that much sense in a game where we can bring back the dead with their PRs intact.

[Seacore]

Can we please lynch OGML? I've got a birthday noose right here.

[Seacore]

llama, can we agree on lynching OGML if nobody is willing to even look at LMP?

I don't want KK lynched, I've found little scummy there.

unvote. Vote OGML

"Oh look, Seacore is vote hoping again"

No, I just want MoI, LMP and OGML dead.

[Seacore]

So, right now you think I'm scum?
Are you happy to wait for farside's plan to confirm me?

If so, join me on the OGML wagon.

[Seacore]

Its not that complex KK, it's actually using Backstage well.

Farside either has an ability or knows somebody backstage has one. She'll instruct that person to target me. Tomorrow they claim (possibly through code to not completely out themselves) whether it was successful or not.
This is a good plan, because scum can't automatically kill whoever it is doing the action so I can actually be cleared.

However, it does assume that there are no scum backstage.

[Seacore]

I really can't believe that OGML's "please sacrifice me" is earning him any points. I've seen far far riskier scum gambits than that. Particularly when scum-OGML has some buddies around to talk the town out of sacrificing at all during D2.

And AGar, yes, I obviously find LMP very scummy and tried a small push on him before. But today, given the timeline is going to be me or OGML so please pick one.
If I'm alive tomorrow, I'll join you on the LMP wagon from first light.

[Seacore]

KK, you've stated that you believe the most likely explanation on the coincidence is that I came up with the fake claim, shared it in scum chat and then Chessgaggle was inspired by the idea and posted it.

For this to be true, Gaggle is also scum.

So, you are willing to conclude that two players who you do not otherwise view as scum are scum based on a single coincidence.

You are willing to vote me, despite the fact my claim can likely be verified tomorrow, instead of vote for OGML who is anti-town in extreme?

[Seacore]

I can't tell what you're saying here, OGML.

My last post has destroyed your town read on me?
Or Farside's post has detroyed your town read on her?

Because you've found me scummy since, from iso, your #37. Granted the last time you voted for me you didn't provide any other text at all, so I guess that this is some kind of improvement.

Also, have you stated yet why you hammered the sacrifice on Saint?

[Seacore]

GG, you say you're willing to choose a guy claiming vanilla over a guy claiming an odd role.

But it's not just that.

It's choosing somebody who has been incredibly anti-town. Over somebody who's claim can be verified. Look at OGML's play, do you really think he'll be any use as we approach MYLO or LYLO, particularly with his habit of voting for himself when he's feeling frustrated?

[Seacore]

The deadline is in 22 hours.
Unless I can convince AGar to vote for his townread, given that his townread is still anti town, it's up to you Gaggle to decide.

If you're gong to pick me, I'd like you to do it soon, so I can talk in twilight (I'll either be away from my PC or asleep for the last 12 hours of the deadline)

[Seacore]

Just an aside, while I compulsively check this game very 10 mins, while I find LMP scummy, his current absence should not be considered as evidence of this because he's away in other games, including the one he's modding. (He got us a back up mod though, so good work LMP )

[Seacore]

He may have (and I won't argue this point because we're past that now) done more 'town tells' but I still say that he's a more destructive force for the town if left alive compared to me.

Your current argument is that we're both town, but OGML is town you'd bet more money on. Fair enough, but if you trust your gut, and one of us has to die, which town member do you want left alive?

[Seacore]

We've been through this, not enough people jumped on KK even when we had enough time. >20 hours to go, it's either OGML or me.

[Seacore]

Okay, I'm town. And a commuter, but i lied about the number. I'm actually just an even day commuter. Vaguely important if you want to consider raising me. Thats all. Good luck town.
My death picks are
OGML
MoI
LMP
LLama

[Seacore]

So, the prime number thing was actually a complete coincidence. I wanted to claim my actual role, the one I'd breadcrumbed. But if I survived the claim, I didn't want to give the scum perfect knowledge of when I'd be vulnerable. I knew just claiming odds wouldn't work. So I looked at some other series that would. Fibonacci didn't. Prime did. I went with that.

[Seacore]

Well then you hate me. Because it is. If I had known about chess's idea, I probably wouldn't have claimed the prime number thing, but still, what's wrong with my mostly truthful claim. If I was able to survive I could have made the scum waste another kill on me down the track.

[Seacore]

I didn't have that idea until you presented it, it honestly hadn't occurred to me that somebody would test my claim by otherwise 'wasting' their PR action for the night. By then it was far too late to come clean because it would have meant a lynch anyway.

[Seacore]

I doubt he would have unclaimed it, as his victory would have been assured.

And I too have noticed who stayed to discuss the game with me and who has fled the thread.

[Seacore]

Anyway.
If I'm the second resurrect target (and I doubt that I am) but if I am, wait until Day 5 to raise me, since N5 I'll be immune because of the way raising works and N6 I'll be immune because of commuting.

If I'm raised, I will continue to pursue my 4 scum reads.

[Seacore]

Sigh. This Backstage stuff has been to the absolute detriment of the town. It hasn't provided any scum lynches but has allowed other lynches to be cut off by "BS"

In my opinion, for this game to be balanced, given that we can basically 'redo' two mislynches (or night kills) the setup is probably

12:5:1
Or possibly even
11:6:1

In the former case
8:4, which becomes 7:4

In the latter case, we're about to enter
7:5, which becomes 6:5 with a successful kill.

I think we'll have some people doubt that an original setup of 11:6:1 is possible, but given the two raises, I think it's entirely balanced and it should be considered.
Which makes tomorrow potential lylo.

[Seacore]

Also, it makes no sense as Sam having a lyncher after her

[Seacore]

Same, I started to think that Faraday had to be scum, who was trying to look 'confused and frantic town'. But that was ignoring all the other town stuff Faraday had done in earlier days.

I'm going to be using this game as a counter case to "too scum to be scum" since WC was pinged D1

[Seacore]

Like the guaranteed loss of voting town over scum in lylo?

I seem to remember you giving shit to shadow over lylo performance. About ignoring stuff that had happened previously and then vote the wrong person?

[Seacore]

I was actually talking about Storm of Swords. But yeah, voting for the 'lulz' at lylo, way to make me want to play with you

[Seacore]

Who did scum target N2?