Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[nhammen]

Hi all! Replacing Ethereal Cookie. In the middle of a reread, and it seems a lot of stuff is focusing on mechanics, at least as far as I have reached. Anyways, I do not like having a vote out on a player that I have no reason to think is all that scummy, so
UNVOTE: Parama

[nhammen]

OK, Sorry about delaying my reread; other stuff came up just after I replaced in. Will not be a problem though.

The first few pages of posts are all discussion about the game mechanics, so I have a question (that might have already been answered) before I begin:

@mod: if someone dies with an ability, is that ability revealed upon their death? If you have already answered, then ignore this.

The first thing I saw is that three town aligned players are dead, and it might be useful to know if they died holding abilities. In fact, from my quick skim of the first 6 pages, I saw that muh died because of an ability that he was given, so now I am assuming that abilities are not revealed. I hope we haven't lost anything useful. I guess I will have to finish this reread to find out.

We can suggest that someone in the town is a 'good target' and hope a vig or somesuch kills him. You cycle the town-destroying ability to that same antitown 'good target'. Unless an antitown faction has control of a protection ability for tonight, that guy has a pretty good chance of dying the same night you kill him, so your bad-for-town ability goes away night 1 instead of bouncing from player to player and causing us harm.

Did you see the mod's post? Cycling happens

after

kills. Hmmm...

@mod, what happens if an ability is cycled to a player that has already been killed? The person with the ability wasn't killed, so there may be some ambiguity regarding special mechanics 3 and 4.

Even with killing on the next night, or if passing to a dead player destroys the ability, I highly doubt the game was designed such that any anti-town ability could be destroyed as easily as that; if they could, why were they included in the game. But, this is some serious mod WIFOM. And, I can't see a real flaw with this plan if we replace "kill the same night" with "lynch the next day" or "kill the next night", other than the fact that we are deciding a lynch or kill a day ahead of time, before the information from day 1 is revealed, which admittedly is a pretty big flaw. But I highly doubt that there are many anti-town abilities. Because they can all be easily destroyed like this, so the mod shouldn't have included them.

Another thing I was thinking is that we might be able to just massclaim on day two. Mafia won't be able to kill anyone with a useful power role, and it'll give us some insight into what's in play. Oh, and any investigative roles can claim results without risk of their abilities being lost. I think it would also help the town more than the mafia because the mafia can share what roles they've gotten between each other, so they'll already have info about what's in play.

I like this plan, but there is a downside. When everyone with an ability claims, the mafia can look at each player that has claimed an ability to find out who they would likely pass the ability to. It could allow the mafia to find power-roles more easily. There are a few obvious counter-measures to this, so that's not that big of a problem, but it could matter.

Oh, right, it is dangerous to give anti town roles to the person we find scummiest. Maybe we do this for the person we find towniest?

You are seriously suggesting to kill off the towniest player? Or am I misreading this? Or am I reopening two week old discussions that have already been resolved?

I have a treestump ability. For today, I'm voteless and can't be lynched. I'm worried that if this survives to lylo, it could screw everything up if a townie has it. Or if a mafia member has it for that matter. However, mafia having it for one day wouldn't really affect anything.

The more I think about it though, the less merit I think the plan has. Just because we don't know what roles are in play, so there are a lot of possibilities for error, and there are likely some negative roles that mafia could use if eliminated like this. Plus, I'd guess that most abilities in play are positive for the town. Those with such abilities obviously shouldn't claim them until tomorrow - but there are probably things like investigating/protection/vigging that are in play. I think the best thing to do might be to just pay attention to who has abilities like this, and make sure that at some point the abilities get eliminated. It might be a bit trickier with mine since it can't be gotten rid of through lynching.

Discuss.

You had made it sound like your ability was really awful. In LYLO it could cause problems, but there is a lot of time to take care of that.

I do have one question that has probably already been answered, if you are "lynched" does it end the day, or not?

You later say that it ends the day. Also, I think that tomorrow you should tell everyone who you give that ability to. Does everyone agree?

I'm here, guys. I haven't consulted with Vi, yet, so I'll keep this brief.

Too sane for the Furc I know.

vote Saint

Wait. You're saying Saint is a furc/Vi hydra? This should be... interesting.

Also, at lylo, the most worrying thing isn't a possible unlynchable mafia (because you could pass it to a townie) - it's the fact that a townie could be voteless. So lets consider a hypothetical 5-way lylo, with 2 mafia in the same faction and 3 townies. If a mafia member has the treestump, then the town has to lynch the other mafia or they lose. If a townie has the treestump then (assuming there are no vig/doc/etc abilities left) the town will only control 2/4 votes and will lose. At 3-way lylo, it wouldn't even matter who had it. If it's a townie, the mafia's vote makes it impossible to gain a majority. If it's the mafia, then well the mafia is unlynchable.

Which means that that situation is not LYLO, the game i already over. With a treestump in play, LYLO happens at even numbers.

HOLY COW! I just checked the votecount, and implosion still counts towards the vote total even though he can't vote! That is the WORST treestump ability I have ever seen! LYLO still happens at even numbers though.

What are the risks of trying to kill implosion's ability? Is the worst case scenario really a mafia doc saving the guy? A vigilante would miss getting a kill that night, but he wasn't guaranteed to shoot correctly anyhow. While this treestump ability makes us autolose LyLo, so it is the equivalent of an entire player, guaranteed.

I'm thinking maybe we ought to remove implosion's ability from the game. If you're town, please argue for or against that without appeals to fear, mkay?

I'm thinking that giving this ability to an obvtown VI (if there is one, and there usually is) may be a good idea, except that said VI will only possess this ability for 1 day, instead of permanently.

How the cycling abilities will be handled -

D2 all players who survived and passed on abilities N1 should claim that they passed an ability, only revealing what that ability was if it gave them a Pro-Town result (like a guilty on someone). They are not to claim who they passed it to.

D3 all players still alive who passed abilities N1 claim who they passed them to. Then said players confirm / deny that they received an ability Day 2 that they passed on N2. They also reveal any useful results.

Lather rinse repeat each Day cycle. And continue to lynch scum.

This is mutually exclusive with claiming role results, but not claiming who was sent to. So the question is, which is more valuable: knowing all role results, or knowing who cannot be scum-partners?

While saddling a scummy player with an Anti-Town ability that is dangerous in the endgame and then killing them before it can be passed is a good strategy for late game it’s very bad early. For obvious reasons.

You are right! If we pass this ability for a while it will give confirmation about who cannot be scum together. Maybe best use is to tell player with said ability to give it to the player most likely to be their scumbuddy (assuming said player is scum), and if they refuse, well youve caught scum. Arg! implosion already though of this in #63

RedCoyote's #84 is the longest piece of fluff I've seen in a while.

[nhammen]

At the top of page 5, and I was expecting this reread to go faster. I haven't even caught up to where i skimmed to. It took me an hour to read 4 pages. Well, tomorrow night I will have a lot more time.

Anyways, at this point I agree with Magna's plan for anybody with an ability to say that you passed it on the morning after you pass it, and to say to whom you passed it on the next morning. Also, as I think I just stated, I think that the treestump should say to whom they passed it on the first morning, rather than the second. The treestump can be used as a sort-of investigation, as all abilities can. There is no point to worrying about destroying the treestump now, when this can be done at a later time, and may happen without even trying. Unless somebody has mentioned something important in the time after I have read.

Anyways, I will have 3 hours to read tomorrow, so hopefully will be to the top of 20 by tomorrow night, and then will be caught up on Monday.

[nhammen]

Continuing with my reread:

Currently I'm not liking Muh, a couple of posts and no content; I'm also not liking quadz based on his "scumslip" vote on paramas nulltell.

I'm not too keen on the idea of a massclaim early on, however removing anti-town abilities early on could prove beneficial then the scum would be left guessing as to what is in game and where...

Also the spud has a "time limit" of X amount of posts for those who missed it... I would guess that the trigger is around 150~250 posts.

Oh and something about this post just didn't sit well with me...

Your name doesn't sit well with me...

AntB's accusations look too easy to me. Also, they were not accompanied by a vote. Why not? (Oh, he's dead)
I would like a little bit more comment from I Am Innocent, but I do agree with him. Also, not worthy of a change of vote?
And, I can definitely see why Helghast was killed.

Also

Vote: Quadz08

. Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

What's scummy about this "scumslip" catch. You can't just say, hey this looks scummy without reasoning. Or rather, you can, but it wont convince anybody. Also, Parama's power isn't quite so powerful as you make it out to be.

I also have an issue with your jump to wrathchild. When you vote quadz is looks like you're taking that vote fairly seriously, then you vote wrathchild for not revoting after he unvoted. It's a weak reason for a vote anyway and an even moreso as a reason to change your vote. Especially with nothing from quadz in between to explain a potential lessening of suspicion. My thought is that you didn't like that your quadz vote had gotten attention from MoI..

Unvote, Vote diddin.

I also didn't like diddin's vote of WrathChild. That was such a light reason. And your theory does provide a very interesting explanation for his actions.

If muh flips scum, parama is obvitown imo, I reckon theres about a 99% chance of that right now.

Uhhhhhh.... why? Muh was an easy target for the potato, regardless of Parama's alignment.

Uhhhhhh.... why? As in, why would scum bomb his scumbuddy like that?

Notice, I agree with the people that say that Parama's bombing of muh is a nulltell. If muh had actually done the correct thing, he would have gotten rid of the bomb ASAP. However, I must also say that some of Parama's actions surrounding this event were a bit overconfident of him.

With muh flipping town

VOTE: Parama

I'm going to believe muh on that one

Uh, what?

Also on another note, I'm starting to think my predecessor may have been tunneling on Parama just a tad bit too much.

Now there is talk of Day-Vigging me. That's a bit hastey. I guess I'll address the Scumday thing. I saw that Diddin (I think that was who, I'll double check) had put up a lame pointless vote on me (for Unvoting a RVS Vote) and figured he was baiting me into OMGUS voting him to drive his case further. I wasn't going to let him have that satisfaction, so I just refrained from voting him at the moment. I think it was Diddin trying to fish around for someone's overreaction. Normally I'd take that as a Null-Tell, but when trying to get "The New Guy" with this seems to tip the scales a bit on the scummy side.

So you were specifically trying to avoid OMGUSing? By making up an excuse for an action. Before this, I didn't really find you scummy, but this just rings alarm bells.

Are you getting town vibes from Parama or do you have role information that leads you to believe that Parama is town? These are two very different concepts.

Unvote

;

vote: diddin

At first he said he had reason to believe Parama was town because of his role, then he said that he was getting "town vibes" off of him, which strikes me as a completely different reasoning.

Ummm... can you show me where diddin says anything about role information about Parama. Because, I never saw anything like that. And I'm worried you may just be making up an excuse to vote diddin.

D'oh! Second one was @Ant. Why do I think that about Tree Stump? It's in the wiki. Which is why I asked Eruci if he's modified any roles... to clarify my assumpion that the ability can only be used if claimed in thread.

I'm gonna say that this is another example of where the wiki is wrong. I have never seen the role used in this way. I have already found and fixed really awful errors in the No Lynch and Jester articles quite some time ago.


Arg! Still rereading

[nhammen]

I know I haven't caught up, but as far as I am, diddin is my #1 suspect, and I saw this post and feel I have to reply.

There's been talk of vigging me. If you guys think it's going to happen, implosion should at least pass me the tree stump ability so it can go away at the time of my death.

Wasn't the treestump going to be used as a cycling investiaton? I'm not sure if you are the person to be suggesting any course of action. Unless I have missed us deciding that it is better to remove the stump than use it for an investigation. In which case: please ignore the ramblings of a madman that hasnt caught up.

[nhammen]

1 moment while I catch up on today. I was LA on Wednesday and Thursday, but I did get a chance to use and pass on my ability. I completed my reread on Tuesday, and can post some of my thoughts in just a moment.

[nhammen]

This seems a little bit paranoid, makes me find Wrathchild scummy, much more so than his failure to vote. He seems to see scumhunting as more of an attack and scumhunting that targets him as plots from an opposing force rather than the mistakes of a misguided townie. (of course, he could be right, it could be a cross factional dispute, but the only way wrathchild would no that is if he were scum and diddin were town, not the reverse).

Agree. As I said in one of my latests posts before nightfall, this fact makes WrathChild scummy, where he hadn't been before. His hammer that prevented me from finishing my reread is EXTREMELY scummy.

RedCoyote's #84 is both scummy and lacking direction. I've gotten him lynched as a townie, and he posted completely differently than he did there. Whereas he responded to pops and implosion (two people I have my eye on) a lot, his post has NO CONCLUSION

And you are the first person to have noticed this!? Well, at least someone noticed it.

By confirming this, you would essentially be forcing a no lynch... if he isn't lying, and is merely voteless.

When pops had suggested testing the unlynchability of implosion's role, implosion had not yet claimed that it would be a No Lynch (bad implosion!). In many cases, an unlynchable role will have absolutely no effect when it is lynched. There isn't really a standard unlynchable on this site, so it could have gone either way. So getting on pop's case for this is wrong. If you just jumped to the conclusion that it works one way, then maybe he just jumped to the conclusion that it works the other way.

Ooooh! My predecessor and Saint(furc?) are fighting. Cut it out you two!

Nero Cain says that most of ckd's posts look like fluff. But it isn't. Lack of reading, followed by a plan that developed from lack of reading. Followed by a real case.

Aaaand quadz points out that Nero Cain has mainly posted fluff as well. And it is mostly fluff. Hello hypocritical Nero scum!! Also, quadz is town.

Parama's "gambit" has me feeling a bit iffy. Until then I had him as leaning Town, but this is a bit iffy.

Also, please note that #257 is like the 4th time that themanhimself has shown evidence of not reading the thread.

And then comes his #258 which shows some very fine reading of the mod. Interesting.

RedCoyote's #289 actually says something!!

AntB's accusation against Saint is a good point. Saint never mentioned AntB, and then suddenly says he'd be willing to vote AntB. Same with AntB's case against Narsis, actually.

And now I see the certian reason for AnB's modkill. Wow, that was dumb.

@I Am Innocent #366: That may very well be. Although with two players so far that have done this, it may just be people not properly reading. Especially since ckd is one of the players that has shown this problem of not reading before.

That's now two players, Helghast and WrathChild, that have claimed to have no powers. Arg!

@RedCoyote #410: This looks townish. Although, I have seen scum try to get town cred by going after lurkers. But this still does look townish.

@chkflip #417: I'm liking this post. Especially the attack on Nero. chkflip is now townish.

@Magna #436: YESSS!! Awesome post. Also, I have slightly changed my mind about chkflip, because of the arguments Magna has presented. Not sure about chkflip now. Well, it seems that both of these players flipped, which makes this quite funny.

[nhammen]

tht was written overnight

[nhammen]

EBWOP: that was written overnight. Because SOMEONE (you) decided that it would be a good idea to end the day before eveyone had caught up. Thank you!

[nhammen]

Sorry about the triple post. I should have included those last two posts in the long post I was writing. Especially with that Virus about. I was just annoyed at Wrath.

Vote: DarlaBlueEyes

Everyone should do this. The slot has pretty much 0 scum hunting, all go with the flow, and DBE made some particularly terrible posts that I would be happy to point out and/or discuss if anyone didn't see them.

Please ISO Narsis/Darla. Then vote for her.

Agree with the sentiment, but Wrath is the person I find scummiest, because of many things yesterday.

OH GOD! TMH, you have got to be kidding me! That is an ability that should not have been used.

I passed my ability on.
MoI passed his ability to me. It is clear what ability he had.

Hello mister liar! You do realize that MoI DIED, and so couldn't pass any ability. And did NOT HAVE any ability according to his death. So tell me, how you know you got an ability from MoI please.

If we're doing the claim thing by MoI (who we now know as town) then I was a Firewall (Doctor) and have cycled my ability on to the person I thought was most towny.

UGH!! Don't claim the ability and don't give a clue as to who you passed it to. Just claim that you had an ability to pass on. For other reasons that will be revealed later, I really hope you are not telling the truth about having the doctor ability.

I think Diddin is probably scum, his whole narrowing down our dayvig choices and then never actually shooting until it was way way late in the day

That's one! LMP asked for three suspects.

OH GOD! TMH, you have got to be kidding me! That is an ability that should not have been SENT TO A PLAYER YOU THOUGHT WAS SCUMMY!

Page 35 is just full of TMH fail. So lets get this straight: you stole the Daykill, sent the stealing ability to a player you found scummy, and used jester speculation. However, I will not vote for tmh, because I think he should use his daykill AS DIRECTED BY THE TOWN, and then be lynched. Oh wait, he needs to pass that kill first. Lynch him tomorrow.

I am curious to know about this bus driving ability. Does it just switch two powers like TMH is suggesting, or do all powers get randomly distributed?

Also @ everyone that pushed for a lynch of Powerox with his ability, do you still think that was a pro-town move?

Everyone that voted for him or pushed his lynch after he claimed is high on my suspect list.

I also would like to hear the multiple reasons TMH said he had for wanting that role out of the game?

As MOI said, now that is out of the game, there is no reason not to answer that.

Agree with this entire post.

TMH passed his power to diddin it seems, therefore they cannot be scum together. Both, though, are scummy, but there is the potential to clear (at least mostly) one by lynching the other. TMH is currently in possession of a very protown power, for all that he gave it to himself, and diddin is in possession of a proscum power. Therefore I'm going to start the day with a diddin vote.

Vote diddin

Smart logic. I can't disagree.

Oh yeah thanks for reminding me, q21.
EVERYONE CLAIMS WHO THEY PASSED THEIR POWER TO LAST NIGHT.

NO! Everyone claims that they passed a power, but not to whom! If you claim who you passed the power to, scum will have a list of who to kill! This is the most anti-town thing I have seen!

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug

Unclaimed

LynchMePls
RedCoyote
Lateralus22
curiouskarmadog
Nero Cain
q21

Sorry if I missed anyone.

[nhammen]

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen
LynchMePls
curiouskarmadog

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug

Unclaimed

RedCoyote
Lateralus22
Nero Cain
q21

I passed my ability on.
MoI passed his ability to me. It is clear what ability he had.

Hello mister liar! You do realize that MoI DIED, and so couldn't pass any ability. And did NOT HAVE any ability according to his death. So tell me, how you know you got an ability from MoI please.

This seems pretty significant and should demand explanation.

This seems like parroting. Nothing to add other than what at least 3 players had said before you?

Also, I did not see any mention from MOI's post about what to do with players who passed an ability onto a player who died. Is this something we should discuss D2 so we can easily track roles still in the game/not in the void? I am leaning towards yes but I want to make sure I am not missing anything.

I was actually wondering this last night. If scum sent an ability to the void, there are some implications here. Although, I think that the mod will probably return abilities sent to the void by scum quicker than other abilities, but I'm not sure whether that type of setup speculation is useful.

I want to hear a defense from Bunnylover before he's chosen for the virus, and I also want to make sure we have a consensus. (although I don't understand the reason Bunnylover would tell a lie, LaL has a tendency to hold true. I won't actively oppose Bunnylynch if his defense is poor).

Agree. I don't see any scum reason for his lie at this point, but I would definitely like some clarification.

I'd like to hear Bunny's defense, but am, at this point, A OK with his bombing. I think Bunny may have been the SK, a mistake like this probably wouldn't come from the group that ordered the hit on MoI.

More parroting. And, if there is an SK, how do you know it is mafia that hit MoI rather than the SK?

HOLY COW!! Bunny explains his logic, and that required not reading A) the rules post, B) the sample town PM, and C) the two vanilla claims in the game thread. Wow... And, his logic is still not making too much sense.

1) It does not say anything about scum. The only thing intresting about it is that I have the choice to pass it or not.

Are you just a pure normal VT?

Blah, I'm really fucking up this game with not thinking nor reading.
I am a VT. When I read the front pm I could have sworn it did not have the second sentence.

Ummm, these two quotes contradict each other. Seems like a bit of flailing is going on here. So, Bunny do you have the choice to pass this ability?

Bunny is just an idiot. SI or VI to be determined, but I don't see this as a scumslip. Those trying to blow it out of proportion are scummy.

Agree. Bunny has no ability today, and thought that having no ability was an ability, and more specifically, thought that this no ability must have come from MoI because MoI had no ability. Any more comments I give about this would be insulting Bunny, so I will not comment any further. However, I am leaning slightly scum for a few reasons specified above. But not enough to want him dead quite yet.

Wrath-his and Bunny were the ones that finished off powerrox. Quick hammers are scummy.

I agree with this. However, I must say that the rest of that post was decidedly unimpressive, and in one place downright horrible.

If you want to get rid of me for quick hammering Powerrex, I disagree with that. I was reading the thread, I agreed with Powerrex lynch and understood the case on him, and gave my opinions which people probably had already said not sure. I stand by my vote on Powerrex.

You shouldn't stand by it. You never end the day before giving other people a chance to discuss. Unless the deadline is within 24 hours. Which it wasn't.

@The discussion: MoI had no abilities, so no ability went to the void. Chk ability that went to the void was the ability Remover. Their is nothing to discuss on that subject. If any abilities were sent to them, I think the mod would have informed us like he did with Chk ability.

chk's ability did NOT go to the void. It was removed from the game. Any abilities passed TO chk or MoI were sent to the void. Which is what the discussion is about. Please read the rules and iso the mod before posting next.

[nhammen]

EBWOP: in conclusion, I'd rather see a dead Wrath than a dead Bunny, for the time being
VOTE: WrathChild

[nhammen]

EBWOP: in conclusion, I'd rather see a dead Wrath than a dead Bunny, for the time being
VOTE: WrathChild

So who do you support sending the virus to?

Wrath. He is the scummiest, and there seem to be more connections with Wrath than with Bunny (haven't actually checked that).

EBWOP: in conclusion, I'd rather see a dead Wrath than a dead Bunny, for the time being
VOTE: WrathChild

It took you 22 minutes to decide this?

I hadn't realized that I hadn't put this in until after eating lunch. But it's cool that you felt this worth to post about. Why?

This defense has so many flaws with it. More than anything it shows Bunnylover is not paying any attention to what is going on. I still stand by the possibility of Bunnylover being an SK over Mafia. I am speculating that mafia killed MoI and Bunny killed Chk.

@nhammen: MoI was being productive to town hence why the Mafia killed him.

Yes, and that also works for "MoI was being productive to town hence why the SK killed him." So, I see two things here. First off, you seem to know who the Mafia killed. Secondly, you seem to be hunting for the SK over hunting for the mafia. Yeah, I'm sticking with my vote.

[nhammen]

#1: The only reason I would seem to have more connection is because I wasn't inactive and required to be replaced like Bunny's predecessor.
#2: I never said I support hunting for SK over mafia. I said that Mafia-Bunny wouldn't have been so dull as to write that they received an ability from their own NK. As a result, I don't think Bunny is Mafia, but I do think Bunny is scum.
#3: An SK would be more interested in killing mafia than town for two reasons. One, to eliminate competition and Two, to be able to advocate that they are acting in the town's best interest in the event that they are discovered.

1) That may or may not be true. The case on you yesterday did create connections that Bunny's slot did not have a chance to form. So, if Bunny had acted as scummy as you yesterday, then there may have been as many connections with Bunny as there are with you.
2) You didn't say it, but you were doing it.
3) But you waited until now to say that. Why?

This is incorrect. I did

NOT

pass an ability last night.

My bad. Fixing it now.

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug
LynchMePls
curiouskarmadog

Unclaimed

RedCoyote
Lateralus22
Nero Cain
q21

[nhammen]

I already claimed, read my posts.

Cuz.. I asked the Mod during the night if I was allowed to and I was told that no one was allowed to transer their VT status as it wasn't technically an ability, but rather a distinct lack of abilites.

So you did.

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug
LynchMePls
curiouskarmadog
Lateralus22

Unclaimed

RedCoyote
Nero Cain
q21

@Nhammn: It says I am not required to. To me, that means yes I have the choice lol.

Hmmm... How about you ask the mod about this.

First off TMH is pretty much semi-confirmed scum. His argument for doing this is very bad, I mean come on there's really no vi left alive and why the hell would anyone internally pass it off to scum or a bad player? You are depriving of us of the info we would have gotten from the switch. This wasn't even a case of you having superior judgement… you're just taking orders.

I'd like clarification on the meaning of that last line. But I agree this makes him look scummy.

K now onto WC. Leading isn't scummy, I always try to push my suspects lynch as opposed to blindly following.

What about the other evidence against Wrath? In fact, what is this leading thing?

Why the hell didn't she say who she protected? This isn't going t hurt the town in any way at all.

I have a few ideas about this, but would rather she answer this first.

[nhammen]

WC said he thought I was scum because of leading. Meaning I'm just a leader... I guess. Which evidence are you talking about?

My leading comment came after reading Lateralus' ISO, which contained almost exclusively questions, which I interpret as leading others to do your dirty work.

Yeah what evidence are you talking about, nhammen?

Ok, I was wondering what was going on. Laterus' response to WC was just after you stated some reads, so I thought you were stating a read about WC. And I was confused why that read had some evidence that I hadn't seen (because it wasnt evidence against Wrath), but did not contain any of the evidence that I or others had posted. So the evidence I am talking about is all of the stuff about him actively trying to avoid negative attention on D1, quickhammering powerrox so that nobody could respond (extremely scummy), him apparently knowing which kill was the Mafia kill, and selective scumhunting.

1) I don't feel I acted scummily and to push for my death because there will be more connections than there would be with an inactive player is crap. You basically are encouraging lurking, way to go.
2) I was never actively looking for an SK. I was looking for scum. Scum = SK, Self-Aligned, and Mafia.
3) I guess I just assumed it was obvious. So this is one good thing of your attack on me, I get to spell it out a bit better.

1) MISREP! I was saying that you were the Scummiest AND that you had the most connections, so you would be a strictly better kill than Bunny. Because for a midday kill, having more connections allows us to use those connections to influence the next kill.
Connections + Scummy > Scummy with no connections > connections and not scummy > no lynch
See, all those greater than signs.
2) But you specified that the player you were targeting was (in your opinion) likely SK. There is no reason to do that, unless you are searching for it.
3) Well, I don't know what I was expecting to see here. That has to be the response no matter what your alignment is.

[nhammen]

When I was no longer V/LA, I'm sure an experienced player like yourself could see I was able to do more than defend myself.

That's not what my "actively trying to avoid negative attention on D1" comment about you involved. My comment was about you saying that someone "put up a lame pointless vote on me (for Unvoting a RVS Vote) and figured he was baiting me into OMGUS voting him to drive his case further. I wasn't going to let him have that satisfaction, so I just refrained from voting him". This is the first scummy thing I saw from you.

I am speculating that mafia killed MoI and Bunny killed Chk.

I don't get this

What's not to get? He has explained this comment already. Now, you can argue with the explanation, but I don't see how you can say you don't get something he has explained.

@ Anyone who passed a role last night, please say if you sent it to
1) MOI
2) Chkflp
3) Someone else

3) Someone else

I am saying the move is suspicious...scum would want to vig ability for themselves to take out townies...if today he kills someone and it ends up being scum, not as suspicious...but if he hits a townie, it doubles the suspicion in my eyes...

Scum would also want the vig ability for themselves to keep it out of town hands, while still leaving a player that most people considered to be scummy on D1. Just another reason that I find tmh's move to be highly scummy. There is so much scum motivation for it, and so little town motivation.

@the Bunnylover slip; IMO Bunny is town. I think the mistake is just thinking that the "void" of the VT PM is an ability and getting confused over that. I can see town doing this, even if I am the one who found the slip first.

@DBE/LMP 987-988; agreed with LMP 100%.

@IAI 991; Treestumping tmh tomorrow is a good idea. It could both get rid of the treestump and (bonus) assuming tmh is scum (which I am about 99% sure of) it can confirm curiouskarmadog's alignment; if he fails to treestump tmh, he's mafia. If the treestump dies with tmh, he's town. What do people think about this plan?

Agree, agree, and I like this plan. If tmh flips scum, it confirms diddin, ckd, and whoever tmh passes the vig to. If tmh flips town, it still gets rid of one of the most anti-town abilities in this game. Very nicely done. We can also get rid of the stealing ability if diddin passes it to tmh, but there are two questions related to this: A) does the stealing ability have to be passed to the person that you steal from, or did that only happen in this case? B) Do we want to give up on using the stealing ability for confirmation? I think for B, the answer is obviously yes. Stealing in the hands of scum can wreak havoc on all of our confirmation stuff, and it is better not to have this ability in the game.

Plus I'm p. sure Wrathchild is Town getting framed.

The other good targets IMO (note that Furcolow's views are not my own and I haven't pressed my views on Furcolow) are:
*nhammen (rep. EtherealCookie)
*popsofctown
*Bunnylover
roughly in order of preference. I've wanted those first two to die, like, all game and no time is too soon.

I'd like Vi to explain why he believes A) Wrath is framed Town, and B) why these three (including myself) are "good targets". Unless he sees that as being beyond what he is supposed to be doing in this game. (If I am understandng the intent of this hydra correctly)

The other good targets IMO (note that Furcolow's views are not my own and I haven't pressed my views on Furcolow) are:
*nhammen (rep. EtherealCookie)
*popsofctown
*Bunnylover
roughly in order of preference. I've wanted those first two to die, like, all game and no time is too soon.

QFT

Don't worry, I think there's a better consensus for that.

Agreed.

So are those your four best targets for the virus? Also, why are you just agreeing instead of adding your own comments.

I got the virus and passed it to Darla, as she seems to be scummy, and more people agree about Darla than Wrath. I'd prefer if it was passed between Darla and Wrath, but I'd like to hear other peoples' ideas.

[nhammen]

know, we can't lynch tmh, but we can Virus or Daykill him

[nhammen]

EBWOP: I know,

[nhammen]

Wow, DBE sent me the virus, in spite of never having indicated suspicion of me, iirc

She did voice a little bit of suspicion of you in her ISO 8, but didn't follow up on it. In fact, that's the only time she mentions you. I think we have a Mafiosa, and her name is DBE.

UNVOTE: Bunnylover
VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

Yeah, good evidence. Also, thanks for doing the background check on Darla. Seems to imply to me that if one of you is scum, the other isn't.

You know if Diddin indeed has the Bus Driver Ability, that he cannot be scum teammates with TMH, right?

You know that we can be wrong either way. We can't assume that our reads are correct. That way leads to confirmation bias. So yes, both are scummy, but only one can be scum. We have ideas and hypotheses about which one, but we can't know until a flip. So what are you saying here, Innocent?

I’m liking LMP’s case on Darla more and more as I read it… hm.

Prama too. After he came back and pretty much said "I can't scum hunt without an ability!!!"

When was this, exactly? I don’t recall him saying anything resembling that.

Agree with both of these statements in post 1100, but I don't think I agree with the repeated Parama bashing that occurs later in this post, except the argument int the following quote:

Parama’s reread post (898) is basically completely useless:
First, he says q21 should die based on post count. This is not a bad point, though the reaction is rather strong.
Second, he makes a useless comment about TL and how scummy he is / how his replacement is confirmed town (which, btw, he never explained.)
Then, he points out 7 quotes/posts. 3 of them hadn’t been mentioned before, 2 of them were “hey go town this guy’s dead,” and 2 of them had been thoroughly discussed before. The 3 new things he mentioned (pops’ quote, “let’s play the passive game” and “This just looks so fake”) have no further explanation about them. He posts those quotes, and that’s it.
He also mentioned being unsure about pops’ push on muh (or something? I’m not even sure, actually.) and me being boneheaded and obsessive about little things (with no examples).
Then comes a scumlist, and a declaration of 75% accuracy. (3 of the 4 people on his list are apparently scum. Impressive for someone whose scumhunting is more or less nonexistent. Seriously, look at his ISO. The post I’m talking about now is the closest thing to scumhunting he’s got.)
I guess he’s still in the process of rereading the rest, like he said he would. Or maybe he’s not. Y’know. Whatev.

Q21's 897 sucked.

Why does it suck, exactly?

Yeah, I don't see a problem with that post.

Overall, Darla sucks, diddin still sucks, Nero still sucks, WC sucks less, nhammen doesn't suck (though I'm ready for something other than catch-up posts), Parama still sucks, IAI doesn't suck, Bunny sucks, TMH sucks a LOT.

Agree about Darla, diddin, Nero, and WC (except for the less part). Disagree about Parama and Bunny. Agree about TMH. Also, something is creeping me out about how you have frequently stated I am town or have defended me. It's like an ex-girlfriend repeatedly trying to get back together. And in fast moving games, I tend to use catchup posts frequently. You'll just have to deal with that.

Darla is scum btw, might give an explanation later.

Please do that now.


Bunny why is your brain picking Saint over Darla?

Reminding players to answer these.

Hrm.... so I'm guessing there's an SK? Either that or a vig but if there's a vig the ability probably cycles so I don't know that it's much use trying to get anything from that.

Why are you guessing there's an SK? What about another ability? What about multiple scumteams? Why even speculate on this at all unless you have knowledge that I don't have.

I never saw this. Nice catch.

@q21 #1128: This case against DBE, in combination with everything else, is quite compelling.

Bunnylover, WC, and Darla are probably the best three choices for the bomb right now.

I do not advocate Diddin or Saint. My gut tells me people would love to have Saint (or should I say Vi) out of this game.

If I am right about pops being scum, quadz is a possible teammate. Something to keep an eye on.

I disagree about Bunny, but agree about all of the rest. The buddying that quadz is doing may be nothing, or it may be another sign of what you are suggesting. So my three suggested kills for today are DBE, WC, and Nero Cain. Of these three, Nero has the fewest connections, so I would like him to be the lynch after the other two are taken out by Virus and Daykill.

Well, let's say that we decide to wait and lynch theman. Okay. Worst case scenario.

Darla gets stuck with the Virus and flips town.
theman shoots WC and flips town.
We lynch Saint and he flips town.
Then two more town deaths at night. That's five more townies dead.

I'm not saying this will all happen if we don't go after diddin now, but I am saying we shouldn't spare diddin if we think he's scum just because we want to get a town confirmation from lynching theman tomorrow. We're already on a bad footing. That said, if a majority of the town thinks diddin is honestly not a good lynch, then that's a completely different story. I'll build a case against him with pleasure.

I feel that there is more of a case against tmh than diddin. And since we pretty much know that they can't both be scum (although they could be lying about the ability), I'm more inclined towards a tmh lynch tomorrow. Also, why did you list Saint for the lynch?

I'm with RC; let's flip it, and lynch diddin today, since we can't lynch TMH cause of his ability. Which actually reminds me: does no one else find it suspicious that diddin is still alive today, even though he held the dayvig power? Cause I do.

tmh being scum would explain that.

Actually, this is a really good point. I would have assumed that since the virus had gone off D1, that it was simply gone, and the dayvig power was free to use for the rest of the game. It coming back today was unexpected, and I assume it would have been unexpected for TMH as well... well said, IAI.

Agree here.

Well it appears that we have come to an agreement on who should hold the bomb between 3 people.
Myself (although I disagree on this lol).
Saint (Pefectly fine with this).
DBE (Not really seeing a reason not to keep the virus on him/her).
Other then these three people, no one name is mentioned.
We need to keep the virus between these three people.
If for some reason another person gets the virus, the previous owner should either be day kill by the vig or lynch as their is only two reason why you wouldn't keep the bomb on these three.

I disagree about you and Saint. My three are listed above.

i passed the virus to nhammen
lets make 75 posts really quickly so we can confirm my slot is town

It was established early on D1 that the Virus cannot confirm alignment. The mod was asked about this.

her recent post doesn't convince me that she is not blue, but Vi has convinced me to wait to d3 to push her if noone gets doctor

I have some role information from my role last night related to this. I'm not sure if I should claim it now, or wait to claim tomorrow to hopefully catch someone in a trap. Just letting you know, there is something you are missing from the picture.

[nhammen]

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen
q21

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug
LynchMePls
curiouskarmadog
Lateralus22
RedCoyote
Nero Cain

Done with that. And nobody has claimed to have passed to either MoI or chk, so none of these abilities went to the void.

I'll let theory arguments and outguessing the Mod go on for a little while when it's of no real consequence to the game, but when you want to test these little schemes over the course of two days (we couldn't lynch diddin yesterday because he had a Vig power, now we can't lynch him because lynching someone else could "confirm" him (which is totally misleading, btw)) and put the town in peril, I'm going to put my foot down.

When q21 raised his argument for killing diddin, i couldn't find fault with it. So I can definitely see what you are saying. Although, even though I previously thought him to be scummy, I can't remember anything in particular he did that warranted that. I guess I need to go iso him. Now, q21's argument also mentioned that we should kill 1 of diddin and tmh, and diddin has the anti-town ability. This is very good logic, if I find diddin to be scummy upon iso. The biggest problem is that if one of them is scum, and we kill the wrong one first, then they will both end up being killed, instead of killing one scum and having one person confirmed town. So finding the right one first is a very useful thing.

You think you can get off scot-free because you're assuming that theman couldn't have stole your power if he was on your team, right? If that's true, it should go both ways, I think, regardless of who initiated the pilfering. It's all speculative anyways.

You've done good to sell everyone on the idea that theman's alignment will confirm you, but the town doesn't have the luxury to sit back and speculate on Day 3 ability swapping theories. We need to lynch scum. Period. I think there's a strong possibility that both you and theman are scum, regardless of ability swapping. I'm not about to start confirming people because we don't have any scumflips yet.

Have you even read the discussion? The confirmation does NOT come from the fact that tmh stole from diddin. It comes from the fact that tmh PASSED HIS ABILITY TO diddin. Holy crap you can't read. Although, I would like both tmh and diddin to ask if this ability is a standard ability.

TMH's BD ability seems like it would override alignment restrictions.

That's exactly what I think. It shouldn't be assumed otherwise.

I don't see why you two think that. The way it was described, it is passed at night, and there is nothing nonstandard about it. So what makes you think it would be nonstandard? This question is to both Wrath and RedCoyote.

If we spent more time scumhunting and less time worrying about repercussions of lynching the "wrong" person, then we'd probably be heading in the right direction.

Ah. But worrying about which person is the wrong person is giving quite a lot of clues as to alignment. For example, if it turns out that tmh is the right person, both Wrath and you look much much more scummy. And Wrath is already at the top of my scumlist even without that.

And since we pretty much know that they can't both be scum (although they could be lying about the ability), I'm more inclined towards a tmh lynch tomorrow. Also, why did you list Saint for the lynch?

No, you have to justify it.

Ummm... what haven't I justified?

There are few compelling lynches other than theman and diddin.

Dara; Wrath; Nero; some people still seem to think Bunny or Saint. Not as few as you would like us to believe.

Moreover, I feel like it's at best a flimsy theory that theman couldn't have Bus Drove diddin if they were the same alignment. It's certainly not strong enough to forgo lynching someone scummy.

Yes, it is as flimsy as the mod's rules post. That is so very very flimsy, aint it? However, just to make you happy, I have asked both diddin and tmh to ask the mod if the ability is standard.

The one problem that occurs to me is that we had two kills last night. Unless someone comes forward with a vig claim we could be letting a SK or second faction a free walk.

Very good point. I think that from MoI's plan, if there is a vig, the person that had (and used) this ability on N1 should claim on D3. If nobody claims vig on D3, then we either have an SK or two scumteams.

Also, why do you have interest in me yet interest for people who are interested in lynching my slot and it flipping town? Just the sheer ignorance of imagining a town flip seems ridiculous. Let's imagine a scum one.

Umm... I don't get what this means. Could you explain it again?

Are you familiar with my play?
Do you realize I go the extra mile as town?
Are you familiar with my vehement scum-meta and easy-readability?

Do you realize that knowing your own meta means that you can fake it. Especially if you have a partner like Vi with you, who would help you fake it if you are scum. I don't think you are doing that, at this point, but I haven't ruled it out. Especialy after comments like this.

I got the virus and passed it to diddin, I think he's extremely scummy and I've brought it up before. One thing I want to mention is that from my interpretation of the redirector role PM, it's not a standard ability.

Why not ask the mod instead of stupidly trying to interpret it yourself? In fact, why haven't you done this as soon as the conversation about this started, if that is what you thought? I would have thought that that is what a townie in your position would do.

RedCoyote, obviously, if you are town, you should advocate the lynches of members of the mafia. I ask you a simple question, then; do you think themanhimself is scum, yes or no? If yes, then why the fuck are you pushing on diddin? How can they

possibly

be scum together if they are passing abilities back and forth? diddin proved that he had the dayvig yesterday; if tmh proves he has it today, then they

cannot both be scum

, and if there's some strange ability that allows them to be, it'll come up eventually.

Ummm... tmh has already revealed the existence of such an ability. What would confirm diddin upon tmh's death is that tmh passed the evil interfering ability to diddin.

So now my question is, why is it that you and IAI are in such a huff to stand up for diddin today? He's slipped, on multiple occasions, that "certain abilities" are "more likely to be scum/town owned".

How is this a slip? The mod has stated that this is not true, so this is more like being stupid that being scum.

He left out important details about how the Vig power works after claiming it. He deliberately put off shooting yesterday for no logical reason. When we pressed him, he said he wanted to get more reactions, but when I asked him for specifics, he refused to answer me.

However, these are good arguments. I will look back at isos next.

[nhammen]

tl;dr version:

@diddin: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard.
@tmh: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard. Also, what makes you suspect this ability is nonstandard? Also tell me why, if you suspected it not to be standard, you did not seek clarification from the mod as soon as all of this clearing business was started.

Whoops! From RedCoyotes quoting of Wrath, RedCoyote made it appear that Wrath thought that the BD ability could be passed between members of the same alignment, when that is not what Wrath had stated. I retract my question to Wrath.
I also asked RedCoyote a question, but upon reading, I saw that he already answered why he thought it was nonstandard. Apparently, RedCoyote thought that standard in the sense of this game = normal in the sense of the queues.

@RedCoyote: You said that I hadn't justified something, and I would like to know what I haven't justified. Also, you stated that diddin slipped, and I would like to know why you think this is a slip.
@Saint: I would like some clarification of the post of yours that I quoted.

OK, now RedCoyote has defended tmh. Multiple players have defended diddin. So, a flip could be quite instructive here.

[nhammen]

Overall, Darla sucks, diddin still sucks, Nero still sucks, WC sucks less, nhammen doesn't suck (though I'm ready for something other than catch-up posts), Parama still sucks, IAI doesn't suck, Bunny sucks, TMH sucks a LOT.

Agree about Darla, diddin, Nero, and WC (except for the less part). Disagree about Parama and Bunny. Agree about TMH. Also, something is creeping me out about how you have frequently stated I am town or have defended me. It's like an ex-girlfriend repeatedly trying to get back together.

Hey quadz, I never saw a response to this. I'd like to see if there is anything you want to say.

Also, why do you have interest in me yet interest for people who are interested in lynching my slot and it flipping town? Just the sheer ignorance of imagining a town flip seems ridiculous. Let's imagine a scum one.

Umm... I don't get what this means. Could you explain it again?

@diddin: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard.
@tmh: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard. Also, what makes you suspect this ability is nonstandard? Also tell me why, if you suspected it not to be standard, you did not seek clarification from the mod as soon as all of this clearing business was started.

@RedCoyote: You said that I hadn't justified something, and I would like to know what I haven't justified. Also, you stated that diddin slipped, and I would like to know why you think this is a slip.
@Saint: I would like some clarification of the post of yours that I quoted.

These were never responded to either.

CKD, assuming both you and TMH make it to the end of D2, are you going to send the Tree Stump to him N2?

I can..rather send it to bunny...but i have no problem passing it to whoever the town on a whole wants me too...since this ability is out in the open, we should use it to create links

I support having CKD send the treestump to TMH. We need to decide who he is sending the stump to before the day ends, so that we can say if he doesn't send it to that player, then he is scum.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

I couldn't agree more with this. I was told I have an unknown limited quantity of kills left. I have a feeling tmh might not be willing to eat the virus and with no virus, no daykill. There even may be no virus tomorrow.

I'm giving tmh the Redirector ability tomorrow.

I'm not sure that giving TMH the redirector tomorrow is a good idea. I earlier agreed to such a plan, but I thing we have a better option available. Namely, the next post I am quoting contains two plans (#2 and #3) that I think are better.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

This is actually a decent point. More below.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

I couldn't agree more with this. I was told I have an unknown limited quantity of kills left. I have a feeling tmh might not be willing to eat the virus and with no virus, no daykill. There even may be no virus tomorrow.

I'm giving tmh the Redirector ability tomorrow.

Coyote is acting scummier with every new post. He's misrepping the situation like crazy.

Here's what I say: Whether he is scum or town, we aren't lynching tmh today. So if I'm lynched, it's just an extra mislynch for us! As such, there is no way I'm willing to be lynched or killed today.

Here is what we know:
Treestump - CKD
Bus Driver - Diddin
DayVig - TMH

Options
1) We can send both Treestump and Bus Driver to TMH tomorrow, but if we do not have the dayvig and we do not have the virus/or he refuses to hold the virus, we cannot kill him until D4 (and he will have the ability to steal another power N3).

2) We can send just the Treestump to him and if no dayvig / virus, we cannot kill him until D4. Here he would not be able to mess with night abilities since no Bus Driver.

3) We can send just the Bus Driver to him and we can always lynch him if need be.

I still lean towards #2 because my guess is that the dayvig will still be in play with the amount of people we should start D3 with unless it is removed from the game. That would require TMH being killed prior to passing it. Since I think he is scum, I am going to guess that isn't going to happen.

Other benefits of #2, if I am wrong, then TMH who would be unkillable D3 would not be able to mess with the Bus Driver Abilities N3. Also a 3rd person could verify the Bus Driver ability and let us know if it is standard or not.

Summary/my suggestion: CKD sends the tree stump to TMH. Diddin sends the Bus Driver to somebody else.

Thoughts/counter suggestions?

The only issue with #2 is the possibility of the daykill being sent to the void by scumTMH. To counter this, we actually would need to use the redirection ability. This is what has me a bit iffy.

More to come in a few hours...

[nhammen]

The optimal plan of action is to vig diddin and then lynch TMH if diddin flips town.

Best post of Parama's ISO. It makes me worried.

On the top layer, I think I agree with this, but I want to look at our options before anyone pulls the trigger.

The optimal plan of action is to vig diddin and then lynch TMH if diddin flips town.

I just realized something. Parama is forcing false chain lynches,

IF Diddin flips town, it does NOT mean TMH is scum.

2 questions: what caused you to just realize something? Do you believe that both of these slots have acted horribly scummy?

@quadz #1361: Thanks for doing those isos. I agree that tmh looks scummier. I don't like that you are talking about multiple scumteams. Yes, I know it is possible, but I don't like you mentioning it like this.

C'mon guys, don't wuss out, I'm playing in like four games right now and this one is hands down my favorite. I don't like that sentiment coming from parama because it sounds to me like he's scum who knows that he's caught. Implosion and pops haven't been major suspects so I don't necessarily see that coming from them. I'll do the game a three fold favor right now
[ b]Daykill: Parama[ b]
1) He doesn't want to be here
2) This will give us new info to go off of
3) he's scum
Most people seem fine with him dying in some fashion or another anyway

At this point very few people have weighed in since Darla's death. Of these people, 5 of them mentioned that they wanted parama dead: Bunny, Wrath, CKD, quadz, and yourself. Your explanation is completely lacking (why does it sound like caught scum and none of the others with the same sentiments sound like it). The new info it gives is that you are scum. Hi there!

Parama

was in possession of the

Doctor

ability.

Hmmm... Apparently I misinterpreted the role information that I had.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Interesting reaction to Parama's doc flip. Why is this the only comment you have? Anything else to say? No. Ok then.

That was actually intended for diddin, but to respond to your question: Bunny and WC are slightly scummy, while pops is on the town side of null. I've been meaning to look over pops' ISO, though; that's pretty much a gut feeling on him.

Also, I feel like it might not be a bad idea to just lynch TMH now. With this many dead townies, we can't afford to have scum end up with an extra kill, whether it's by poor passing decisions from TMH, or the redirector, or even something we don't know about. And besides, after the kill on Parama after promising multiple times to wait? Let's hang this guy.

VOTE: TMH

Frankly, I propose we lynch theman now. True, we're losing our daykill, but he basically just claimed scum with that shot. Before I just had reason to believe he was scum given his support of no lynching yesterday and his stealing the Vig ability, but now I know it. I don't know if the town should scoff at this without considering it. A scum flip will give us better information going into tomorrow. Additionally, if we lynch a scum today, and whoever has the other night shot knocks off another scum on the same team, we'll be in much better standing.

Vote: themanhimself

Thoughts?

I highly disagree with this plan. There are much better options. We already know he is scum, now we want to find connections. We should be using cycling to give us more confirmed town, and using reactions to find scum.

Daykill: Parama

whoops

Where was the claim request? I told you to ask for one before shooting! Esp since DBE all but breadcrumbed that she passed the Doctor role to Parama.

Obv scum. I still want to wait until D3 to take you out, as I want the Treestump out of the game.

CKD, pass the tree stump to TMH tomorrow.

For anyone adamant about lynching TMH today, you obv think he is scum too so my say is to focus on the three players that helped push Powerox (and in essence save TMH D1).

BunnyLover
Wrath Child
Pops.

If anyone but one of these three players gets lynched, I am breaking my own rule and replacing out. I did not want Helghast shot, I voted for TMH over Powerox, I said DBE was being used as the easy target today, and said I had a town read on Parama, who is also a very solid endgame player. Give me some credit and let's please target just one of these three players D2.

I agree with this entire post, except the last paragraph is pure fluff and as Bunny says is too much bragging. As for your list, Bunny is VI town, in my opinion. And pops is slightly town to me. But I will reiterate that Wrath is my top scumread.

@I Am Innocent #1419 and #1420: All that your case against Bunny shows is that he is a VI.

I outed Parama? No. Parama was not outed. He was protected by DBE. Yes in hince sight that would mean he would pass it to Parama as you pointed out, but thats leads into WIFOM situation.

It should have been obvious at the time. When Darla sad she wouldn't say who she protected for the same reason that she wouldn't out who she passed it to, you should have let it drop.

Ok. We should lynch TMH today because if he is scum, he could just pass the dayvig ability to the player his team is going to nightkill, sending it to "the void."

unvote, Vote: themanhimself

That's a self-defeating argument considering that you're in possession of an ability that utterly nullifies that point

The fact that it is you who is advocating this plan makes me very uneasy. If we do this, we need to have diddin steal the ability from TMH, send it to protown player A who diddin chooses himself (if we trust diddin), and diddin sends the steal to a THIRD player, who also must be protown. I think (but I'd like discussion on this) that we as a town can decide the third player. Wait, that would give clues as to who the dayvig is not going to. Nevermind.

[nhammen]

This is true. Now if we don't lynch tmh I'll take the dayvig ability back to save it from the void if that's ok with everyone.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

I do not consider giving both the redirect and treestump to TMH to be a viable option, so I have not listed it. I think there may be a good case for plan B, but I will need to ask a few questions first.

TMH and diddin: ask the mod if the redirect is a standard ability or not. DO IT NOW. Also ask what happens if a player that the ability was redirected to is killed the same night as the redirect.

If you take the dayvig ability back but are targeted, doesn't the ability get lost from the game? Wouldn't that be worse than going to the void?

We should ask for clarification from the mod rather than assuming.

[nhammen]

If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments.

nhammen

- Consider that if diddin is scum, you just gave him license to throw the dayvig to a partner instead. If diddin is Town, you just gave him license to give it to someone who might not be Town.[/i][/color]

Yes, that is what I said. Which is why I am leaning towards diddin taking the ability for himself, depending upon the answers he gives to his questions. Or rather, the answers the mod gives.

[nhammen]

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

UNVOTE:

At this point, I'm not terribly confident in any of my reads. diddin's D1 play, though, stands out to me as the scummiest thing thus far, so

VOTE: diddin

One problem with this post. Without diddin, the dayvig probably goes to the void. So why exactly are you wanting to not lynch tmh if it isn't to save the dayvig?

Yes, if there's a vigilante ability, then knowing who had it last night will definitely help the mafia kill it. Obviously. I mean, it's not like it would have been passed or anything.

I can offer a counter argument to your sarcasm, but it is actually not a very good counter-argument, so I will say that I agree with the plan that if a vig shot one of the two players last night, they should out themselves now.

--THE DAYKILL IS CONNECTED TO THE VIRUS
--WE ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET THE VIRUS BACK (in fact

I'd prefer it if we didn't

)
--DO NOT BANK ON HAVING IT

I agree with, particularly the bolded. I mean, actually thinking about it, the virus is not a good way to kill people. If we tell person x to just sit back and die, if they are town they may oblige, but if they're mafia they'll just pass it to someone else (if they're going to die anyway they'd have no reason not to pass it on), so it's more likely to hit town than mafia.

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

Hmmm... I'm thinking about this. You are right: the virus is pretty much a guaranteed mis-kill. The only benefit of the virus is that it allows for the dayvig. Is that enough? This means that at best we have a 1 to 1 trade. With how much of a likelihood there is of hitting town with the dayvig, that is not good enough. Well, I guess we could do a mathematical analysis to determine whether it is worth it, but I really don't feel like putting that much effort into a game.

No the other argument is that we will probably have no chance at getting rid of the Treestump.

The virus may get unleashed everyday. With or without a day vig. I suggest we keep the dayvig for one more day and get rid of TMH and the Treestump once and for all D3.

But this is a good argument for keeping the dayvig around for one more night at least. I'm still waiting for answers from diddin and tmh, so I'm not sure how I want to handle this.

My suggestion on handling the virus each day it remains in the game is to have everybody place a vote. Once everybody places a vote (without taking anyone pass L-2), the person with the majority takes the virus and holds it until they die. If they refuse to hold it (indicating scum), they automatically become the choice for the lynch, and we go ahead and lynch that player right then and there and do not use the virus that day. Virus problem averted.***

***D3 would be the one exception if we want to out TMH and Treestump with the Dayvig, we would need to come up with a 2nd alternative.

So, if we hit a townie, we do get a second chance to hit scum, but if we hit scum, we lynch immediately. Hmmm... I guess this is OK. Although, the chance of hitting two townies can be kinda bad. The only question is how to handle D3.

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

For the dayvig passing, that seems like a good suggestion. We want the list large enough that the scum can't predict it, and small enough that if diddin is scum, he doesn't have buddies on the list, and if he is town, there is a low chance of scum being selected. So... what size is that?
For the virus, would that work? Doesn't it only count after they read the virus pm? I'm not quite clear on exactly how it works. I guess there are a few questions I need to ask the mod.

That isn't the question - the question is, can a mafia member use the bus driver ability to redirect an ability from one member of their scumgroup to another?

But it

was

my question. Because NEITHER OF THEM asked the obvious questions. But diddin missed a question:

Also ask what happens if a player that the ability was redirected to is killed the same night as the redirect.

[nhammen]

It would be voided, as if it were sent to someone who died by the original redirector, I guess.

And I was right. Mafia can use the redirection ability to pass abilities between themselves.

Cool beans. Thanks for asking the mod those questions. themanhimself has REPEATEDLY refused to do so. OK, so if we tell diddin to steal the dayvig for himself, either the ability only goes to the void and someone that multiple people have been suspicious of is killed by scum, OR we keep the dayvig. However, since we have decided to use the dayvig to kill the treestump tomorrow (ckd IS giving it to tmh, or is scum with tmh) it seems that diddin should not steal the dayvig for himself, but should select someone else to give the dayvig to.

These were never responded to either.

Yes, I did. Post 809.

OK, my original question was this:

So now my question is, why is it that you and IAI are in such a huff to stand up for diddin today? He's slipped, on multiple occasions, that "certain abilities" are "more likely to be scum/town owned".

How is this a slip? The mod has stated that this is not true, so this is more like being stupid that being scum.

Try again.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

These are exactly the kind of strategies I had hoped to avoid. We're seriously banking on the idea that there is one large scum group, despite the fact we had two night kills, that diddin is confirmed town, that everyone will pass their abilities in a correct way, and that scum have no abilities that could screw up this plan. You're willing to go down that path rather than trust your instinct and lynch scum based on pure merit?

Where do I state that there is one large scumgroup? Where do I state that diddin is confirmed town? In fact, I explicitly state that he may be scum! Are you just refusing to read? These strategies give us VERY USEFUL alignment information, regardless of the number of scumteams. And notice, one of the plans is to lynch tmh now, for those that prefer that option. Now, if we are killing the treestump tomorrow, then plan A1 or A2 are the only choices that will work.

Additionally, I think I'd make a good candidate to get the Bus Driver ability tomorrow, so I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Ummm... you are almost (but not quite) the worst candidate for that.

Hey, instead of complaining about what you can't do, why don't you make a concerted effort at what you

CAN

do? You know, like... scumhunt? Other than themanhimself, I have no clue whom you suspect and why, and even with what I do know about your suspicions with TMH it's not an awful lot.

speakign of scum hunting..

before you made this post, did you at least go back to review my posts to see?? yeah thats what I thought...I have stated why I feel TMH is scummy (at least twice)...

bottom line, stealing the vig ability to kill a townie is scummy (on many different levels)..so you can play down that suspicion all you want (noted), but it was a scummy move.

He also asked you who else is scummy. I'd like an answer as well.

Of course, if there's a nightvig they could just shoot ckd and be done with it. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of sending the treestump to TMH, because if we do loose the dayvig we'd be forced to let him live until day 4, of course the problem with that is that by dealing with the stump separate from TMH we could be leaving it too late to actually do anything about it.

On the note of a nightvig, I like that a lot. If there is a nightvig, and they kill ckd, it solves quite a few problems (for example, all problems that you mention in this quote). So I guess we modify the plan to: if there is a nightvig, take out ckd, and then we can just apply the virus as someone suggested earlier; if there is no nightvig, proceed as has been planned.

I got the virus and passed it to diddin, I think he's extremely scummy and I've brought it up before. One thing I want to mention is that from my interpretation of the redirector role PM, it's not a standard ability. I'm only bringing this up because if diddin survives and passes the ability, he'll probably try to pass it to scum to clear one or the other (assuming he's scum, which I am).

Need to double check, doesn't Diddin say later that it is a standard ability?

I already asked tmh what caused him to believe that it was a nonstandard ability and he refused to answer.

Also, I can't tell if this slot is voting, so.

Vote: quadz (L-way too many)

RedCoyote is fine too.

I can agree with this. I had a townread on quadz earlier, but ever since I said that, he has been making sure that I see that he thinks I am town. His behavior has caused me to drop my townread into a scumread, but not down to Wrath or Nero or RedCoyote levels. Although, with some people thinking that Nero is town, I thought back and realized I haven't seen anything particularly scummy from him since D1, so maybe I have been holding onto that one due to confirmation bias (read: tunneling), and so maybe quadz has decreased below Nero. I'll have to reread Nero to see how I feel about him, but I don't know when I will have time to do that sort of thing.

Let's look at the last few posts before his shot.

You guys shoot whoever you want. I can't find scum in this game and I just give up. Well I can't totally give up, I've got a duty to play to my wincon, but I am going to take a break. I've read too many players wrong this game, I need some time to develop a new angle on this game. Or more information.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel this way a bit too. I really like the game concept/setup idea, but the town just seems to be imploding . We need to hit scum soon.

To which he replies

C'mon guys, don't wuss out, I'm playing in like four games right now and this one is hands down my favorite. I don't like that sentiment coming from parama because it sounds to me like he's scum who knows that he's caught. Implosion and pops haven't been major suspects so I don't necessarily see that coming from them. I'll do the game a three fold favor right now

The comment that implosion and pops "haven't been major suspects" is somewhat strange, but the fact remains that he thought he was doing a good thing. Besides, I think asking about the No Lynch D1 pretty much cements that tmh is impulsive when he tries to be helpful, and this is more of the same.

The comment about implosion and pops comes from the fact that Parama made a similar post to the ones you quoted, and this is what tmh magically thought meant "caught scum". But it didn't mean that coming from the other two because they weren't suspects (read: easy targets).

I don't like defending other people for them. They usually take the opportunity to look scummier, although they usually still flip Town. But it's the only way a VI-type seems to be able to get a fair shake.

I have seemed to notice you doing this more than I remember seeing from you. I'm not sure if that's my bad memory or there being more of "that type of player" in this game than I am used to.

Honestly? I don't have a clue who to vote FOR. I haven't the foggiest idea of who's scum, except for thinking TMH and diddin are scummy, and as described above, voting for them isn't a good idea.

Well... let us assume you have read the game. Then what about the case on Wrath do you disagree with? What about the case on RedCoyote do you disagree with? In fact, I will add some that I disagree with too: What about the case on Bunny do you disagree with? What about the case on pops do you disagree with? What about the case on LynchMePls do you disagree with? Let's hear why it is that you cannot find any people to vote for.

@RedCoyote #1566: You're advocating for lynching tmh and stating that people are admitting that the dayvig is not coming back. Well, multiple people have been working on a plan that DOES in fact keep the dayvig around. So, have you been reading?

Honestly? I don't have a clue who to vote FOR. I haven't the foggiest idea of who's scum, except for thinking TMH and diddin are scummy, and as described above, voting for them isn't a good idea.

So, other than those two no other scum read? Not even partial or slightly leaning scum scumreads? Really?

I have scumreads on Nero Cain, Bunny, and Saint still. I could have my vote on any one of the three, but it wouldn't mean anything, and I don't really think any of them is scummier than another. If it's gonna be an issue for me to not my have my vote somewhere, I'll throw it on one of the three of them.

But you just said that you "haven't the foggiest idea who's scum". And now, it's: I have always thought these guys were scum. Hmmm... I just did an iso of you, and what do you know, its almost as if you had to iso yourself to find who you are suspicious of. Congratulations, you have just committed one of my top scumtells. I now pronounce you the scummiest member of my scumlist.

VOTE: quadz08

[nhammen]

To be more specific on that last comment: people got on his case for not having suspects, so he went to his iso to find who his suspects were, and saw his iso 44.

[nhammen]

I haven't answered this yet, but from my posts, it should be obvious. I will do so anyways.

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

My answers
1) yes
2) yes

1) Yes
2) Yes

Also, @Saint #1593: Good research. But I wouldn't wait up for tmh to answer questions; he has been refusing to do so for quite some time.

[nhammen]

If you had a cycling ability Day 1, please tell who you sent it to N1.

If you had a cycling ability Day 2, please tell the group how many abilities you had and confirm that you passed it/them along.

If you had a cycling ability Day 2 and you sent it to someone who died N2 (assuming there are some), please disclose that as well.

implosion
one
the player is still alive

fuck, I missed getting my night choice in to pass.....asking mod what happened to it cause I dont have it.

bullshit

to paraphrase...it is assigned randomly...I will not be told who it was assigned to.

bullshit. I'm asking the mod what happens if the ability is randomly cycled, and if you are lying, you are dead.

vote themanhimself

can we do this now please?

yeah, although, if that player had the treestump, things would be so much better. I wonder why that isn't the case. Oh yeah.

Night 1 I passed diddin and Night 2 I passed to RC

So what you are saying, is that if the dayvig was not redirected by diddin, it is in the void. Although, I don't believe you are telling the truth about sending it to RC. I think you are just claiming that so that you can say he can't be your partner.

I would definitely not hold the virus, townies have to protect themselves, it's a numbers game, the fewer townies the lower odds of winning. I'm not going to volunteer to kill one because there's a majority, that's not playing to my win-con as far as I'm concerned

Yeah, you are dying today. And after you flip scum, so is your buddy ckd.

So you are claiming you had 1 role, and you did not pass it on?

I just finished a PM-fest with the mod because I didn't understand something last night, my fault because I asked a question which was, in hindsight, poorly worded, and I misinterpreted his answer, and now when I got a PM from the mod for end-night result, now I get it, and I got it wrong last night. Do I make sense...

No.

[nhammen]

to paraphrase...it is assigned randomly...I will not be told who it was assigned to.

bullshit. I'm asking the mod what happens if the ability is randomly cycled, and if you are lying, you are dead.

Nuts. He isn't lying about the mod's response. Also, the mod responds FAST!

I have changed my theory to you decided not to send in a choice, since you couldn't choose your buddy.

[nhammen]

So you are claiming you had 1 role, and you did not pass it on?

I just finished a PM-fest with the mod because I didn't understand something last night, my fault because I asked a question which was, in hindsight, poorly worded, and I misinterpreted his answer, and now when I got a PM from the mod for end-night result, now I get it, and I got it wrong last night. Do I make sense...

No.

Or rather, you did not answer the question that was asked.

[nhammen]

Also, is there a reason why TMH is still alive? Is he, like, so pro-town that he can shoot townies and wagon them all day long with impunity? Because so far, townies are dying, and the scumz aren't. This is a scumteam that is not bus'ing. Distancing maybe, but not significantly bus'ing.

Waiting to see if the virus is active. If it is, we can try to eliminate both Nero and TMH, and if the dayvig still exists, we can eliminate Wrath as well. Hmmm... I never did that reread of Nero I was planning on.

[nhammen]

Although, I am liking your scum-puter, so I might drop my Wrath suspicions in favor of your top rankings, and also ckd for his refusal to pass the stump. In fact, we kill tmh with the dayvig (if it exists) and if he flips scum, lynch ckd

[nhammen]

What's the bizniss with the virus?

the virus is an ability (that is created by another ability maybe) that kills anybody that holds it for more than X posts, where X was (I think) 120 on D1 (from what Parama said) and 75 on D2. So it's a hot potato. We are using it like a lynch by telling the most suspicious person to hold on to it. tmh has refused to do so if he is asked to.

tmh "claims" to have passed the ability to RedCoyote.

Also, is there a reason why TMH is still alive? Is he, like, so pro-town that he can shoot townies and wagon them all day long with impunity? Because so far, townies are dying, and the scumz aren't. This is a scumteam that is not bus'ing. Distancing maybe, but not significantly bus'ing.

Waiting to see if the virus is active. If it is, we can try to eliminate both Nero and TMH, and if the dayvig still exists, we can eliminate Wrath as well. Hmmm... I never did that reread of Nero I was planning on.

You're not reading. tmh tossed the dayvig.

Diddin could have sent it to someone else. He had the redirector ability.

[nhammen]

Just to double-check, TMH says that he gave the dayvig to RC, such that RC should have been in possession of the dayvig starting last night?

No, RC died before receiving the dayvig (if tmh is telling the truth), so the dayvig went to the void. And apparently there is an ability that can recover abilities from the void

[nhammen]

The dayvig is either still in play, due to diddin, or was sent to the void, where it can be collected.

@IAI you can collect items from the void on the same night they are sent there?

[nhammen]

yes, iso the mod. He has clarified it at some point.

[nhammen]

Order of resolution is in the first post, and talking about the void appears later.

Based on what Implosion said, I am guessing q21 sent his role to implosion.

Which should bring up the question, how did IAI get two power roles D2.

I was given a power N1 called the Void Collector Ability, where I could choose one power from the void and bring it back to the game. I had to pass this last night and I did.

At the end of N1, there was only 1 power in the Void, the Hibernate ability. I collected it and passed it along as well. So it is back in play.

The player who has the void collector ability will know if the Dayvig was in the Void, and if it was it looks like it was that player's only choice to take last night.

If they come forward without the Dayvig, we know TMH is lying and can kill him on the spot. But then risk losing the Void Collector Ability N3.

If that person has the Dayvig from the void, TMH could be telling the truth or could have sent it to Diddin and is covering by saying he sent it to RC. I personally do not get WHY he would choose RC over other players, so I think TMH is the lynch, the player with the void collector ability remains quiet, and we move to D4 and I send the treestump to CKD if TMH flips scum.

Thoughts?

So, you use this ability on the same night you receive it? And can retrieve abilities the same night they are sent to the void? Is this ability standard? It seems to be used AFTER cycling. This is odd, to say the least. Especially given that the mod has stated that it goes Non-kill abilities, kills, cycling. Aaaand you confirmed that while writing this post.

The dayvig is either still in play, due to diddin...

The scum killed diddin. Diddin can't play the dayvig, he's too dead. So if TMH transferred the ability to diddin, it's in the void.

Diddin had an ability that changes who someone cycles to. If he used it on tmh, he could choose where the dayvig went. Of course, he might have chosen himself... in which case it went to the void.

[nhammen]

If that person has the Dayvig from the void, TMH could be telling the truth or could have sent it to Diddin and is covering by saying he sent it to RC. I personally do not get WHY he would choose RC over other players, so I think TMH is the lynch, the player with the void collector ability remains quiet, and we move to D4 and I send the treestump to CKD if TMH flips scum.

I forgot to say, I agree with this. I do not share Saint's sentiments regarding ckd. I had a null read on him yesterday, and if TMH flips scum, it provides a good explanation for why ckd "forgot" to send a cycling choice.

Ninjaed:

Why does everyone love ckd as town so much?

Look at ckd 45 and ckd 74. (This was before the mod clarified that the Virus could be passed between factions.) If there's only one scumteam in this game, I heavily doubt ckd would have said this. If there's more than one scumteam in the game, not so much. Since there's no proof (albeit a decent suspicion at this point) of the latter, I'm fine with keeping him off the kill list. Without looking at my notes, I don't remember disliking ckd overmuch until he started whining in four out of every five posts.

You're right. Especially considering who was worrying about ckd looking town. Nevermind. IAI, I'm not sure anymore.

[nhammen]

But isn't it possible for a power to make someone a SK/Survivor/etc.
This is why I think that YU9876414 - AntB [Neutral Survivor, formerly Eruci.][Executed by Judges.][Day 1.]
To me that seems like AntB had a role that made him a Neutral Survivor.
But I'm probably overthinking it.

No. It means that AntB was modkilled, remember.

I believe their is a redirecter in the game.
Diddin had a a good amount of suspicion on him, so it doesn't make sense for him to die.
Scum would just have gave up a mislynch and an ability that could offbalance the whole plan we have with the abilities.

READ THE GAME! Diddin died with the redirector. It was known that he had it. There were discussions about him redirecting the dayvig to himself. That is probably why he was killed. Thus, we dont know if he redirected the dayvig to anyone other than himself, or to himself, until everyone comes in and claims.

[nhammen]

I cycled my Night 2 ability to Saint.

I would be suspicious of ckd for a "vote", but RedCoyote's comment about him makes me slightly iffy. ckd is still my top suspect, though.

And since I believe everyone has claimed (1) now, I did not have an ability night 3.

[nhammen]

So the question is, was that comment by RedCoyote, complaining about an accurate townread, which is something I have seen scum do multiple times before, or honest confusion about why his partner was seen as town. The thing is, I don't even remember if I have ever seen scum complain about people having a townread on a partner.

[nhammen]

I need an answer to this question ASAP, Pops, did you Purge ChkFlp N1 or not.

This is rather important. Apparently, DGB received 2 abilities for D2/N2, but only 1 person has claimed to have sent her an ability. This means that one of these abilities was either sent from a player that died before D3 started, or from scum, or some unknown interaction with abilities. Although, I'm not sure whether or not knowing which ability we are talking about will be beneficial.

I managed the N1 list, so let me go back and check:

Claims

Passed an ability

themanhimself
Bunnylover
DarlaBlueEyes
quadz08
Implosion
popsofctown
Saint
nhammen
q21

Ability was stolen

diddin

Did not pass an ability

WrathChild
Parama
I Am Innocent
StrangerCoug
LynchMePls
curiouskarmadog
Lateralus22
RedCoyote
Nero Cain

Only three players that passed an ability N1 are dead: tmh, DBE, and quadz. tmh passed the redirector to diddin, DBE passed the doctor to Parama, and quadz passed hibernate to MoI. Thus, DGB's second ability from N2 is unexplained as a town pass. Either scum gave it to her, or it was some unknown ability interaction.

[nhammen]

I need an answer to this question ASAP, Pops, did you Purge ChkFlp N1 or not.

Neauxpe.

That means that whoever killed chkflip on night 1 LIED ABOUT THEIR ABILITIES. Every dead player had either claimed to not have an ability N1, or had claimed exactly what that ability was, and it was not the night vig.

@DGB's scumputer calculations: I know it is rather odd to be pointing this out, since it would increase my score if it is a scumputer error, but I noticed that you don't have me listed on the quadz wagon, and I remember that I was on the wagon that lynched him. So I went back and checked, and tmh was not on that lynch wagon. So, is this an error, or did you get the quadz wagon from somewhere other than his lynch?

mod

can you dayvig the treestump, successfully putting the ability out of the game and the player?

That has been the plan for how to deal with the treestump. That's why it was supposed to be given to tmh. But his lynch worked out nicely, since the virus never surfaced yesterday.

nhammen, I'm actually kind of curious - why Saint for your N2 pass?[/i][/color]

I actually thought about giving the reason for it when I posted that I passed to you, since it was a bit odd of a choice, but I realized that if I gave a reason away, scum could use that knowledge of my method of passing to find out who I would pass to on any other night, so I deleted that from my post just before submitting. Why do you wish to know?

Everyone please officially claim if you Purged Nero Cain or not last night.

I am not responsible for the Nero Cain purge.

Since there is some confusion. I'll clarify:

1. I have had no ability for the entirety of the game until today.
2. I have the Day Vig. It is inactive.
3. It is flavored a bot oddly, so I'm gonna double check everything.

So, the Void Collector thought that you would make the best person to hold the Day Vig? What? Question for IAI: if the void collector was in scum hands, could they pass the collected ability to a scum partner?

Apologies to WrathChild go here. I see no reason not to believe that the Daykill needs the Virus to work, though. If everyone has posted Today (and I'm too lazy to check) then the Virus should be beach-ball bouncing around right now if it's present at all. If that's not happening, passing abilities is always good if nothing else. Where the Virus went is a pointed question for [/i][/color]

popsofctown

, again.

Yes, I would like more information from pops about the virus as well.

Nobody claimed the chkflip kill either.

This player may no longer be with us.

False.

Unless they were lying scum. Everyone who has died has claimed what ability they had Night 1.

[nhammen]

Also, while I agree with the q21 suspicions, he has the treestump, so I see no point in pursuing this right now. If he lives tomorrow, I am all for his lynch.

[nhammen]

Sorry for the triple post, but I have some specific questions about the virus creating ability for pops.

1) Is this ability standard, or nonstandard?
2) If the virus creating ability is not in the void or destroyed (we would know if it were destroyed), does the Virus necessarily need to be given to someone, or not?

[nhammen]

Aaaand, finally, did any abilities get sent to Nero Cain last night? If so, we probably should know. Or does the existence of a Void Collector negate that need?

[nhammen]

The Void Collector has the same restriction as other abilities, which for me is that I cannot pass more than 1 ability to the same player each night.

Do the collected abilities have the same restrictions as well?

@ Everyone, please state in your next post if you think at this point in the game, whether we should mass claim our roles from D1/N1 & D2/N2? And why you feel that way.

I think that at this point, the amount of information we have is quite much. Adding more can't do to much worse than already has been.

since I misunderstood the ability and thought I didn't have to pass anything I didn't remove from the void, you got the dayvig at random.

This explains it.


Still catching up, but have to do something else, so will get to the rest tomorrow.

[nhammen]

Well I think we still need to address the non-pass of the Stump to TMH, which would implicate CKD as scum. If my Day Vig become active, I will probably shoot the stump. I'm gonna go back and look at the Q21 case, at this point I feel it may be my duty to Day-Vig him if the opportunity arises.

As previously stated, the non-pass is highly scummy, but ckd's interactions with RedCoyote don't look like scum. Unless RedCoyote is a lot better than I thought. For the Day-vig, there is a reason the stump was given to q21. But I don't see any chance of the Day-vig becoming active. So I hope that the purge can be used on q21 tonight, because he needs to be gone, and that stump needs to be gone.

*ignoring it completely and continuing as if it weren't there, because it's completely indefensible[/i][/color]

Because you can't lynch me today anyway, on account of the ability I've been passed. And if you can convince a lot of players of what you are trying to convince them of, it's going to make it doubly useful.

please explain to me how claiming is scummy

What reason does a town player have to say "hey guys, i'm a power role right now, scum can get rid of it by killing me tonight?" In effect, that's what claiming a power role does.

Yeah, DGB needs to read that too.

Definitely a role that should be outed. It's a tracker. I didn't get anything useful out of it.

I tracked chkflip on N1, and saw him target Darla. When he flipped, and I saw his a ability revealed as Ability Remover, and then Darla claimed to have had the doctor N1, I was very worried. And then Saint came up with a plan to determine whether Darla was lying based on whether or not the Doctor ability was seen by who she passed it to. I was trying to breadcrumb as hard as I could that there was missing info. Eventually, I stated it right out. Apparently, the way I had assumed that chkflip's ability works was completely wrong though, so there was no reason to do any of this.

Day Vig:

diddin

->

themanhimself

(stole the ability) -> StrangerCoug/randomly sent to WC -> WrathChild

I thought that Coug claimed to have retrieved the Day Vig from the void.

Not sure what he is, but as long as it is just "questionable" or scum players getting taken out, he can live in my book. I see a very town player get purged, he is gone. (hint hint, q21/treestump is a very questionable person, hint hint)

Agree with this on every note. I would very much like to see q21 gone tomorrow night.

he also appears to have more knowledge of the setup than anyone I've seen yet, while having the grammar of the uneducated.

Would you mind telling me what comment(s) of Bunny's you are referring to here?

I sincerely apologize for this, but it has been brought to my attention that there was a mod error in DrippingGoofball's final Day / Night Two Ability Message. DrippingGoofball has received a corrected Ability Message for that Night.

Lemme guess, DGB was supposed to get a Doctor message. This explains everything.

Does anyone feel like every single subsequent post SC makes gets scummier and scummier? Like I seriously think his iso is ordered from town to scum.

lol
Early in the game, I actually decided not to send to him because he was too towie, and was a likely NK. Not any more.

This question seemed innocuous at the time, but given that we now know she had 2 abilities it becomes suspect since if you have two abilities surely its obvious you can be passed two abilities. Unless one of your abilities is one that never passes - then you'd have to check, because if you can't be passed two abilities then letting slip later in the game that you had two abilities marks you out as different, ie. scum. Or SK as is probably more likely.

An actually good point from scum21. But pops says it best:

q21 makes a good point about dgb-sk,but somehow sk hunting doesn't make me feel better about his alignment.

How did you "know" LMP was town today then?

OK you're shotgunning posts, so going strictly by memory, it was because of the ability he passed me. Scum would never give me that I after I shot down one of them.

Are you fishing for a reaction here? Cause something aint right.

You are right. How could DGB possibly know where whatever ability she has came from?

[nhammen]

implosion - should I claim my day 1 role... I get the impression that that's the role you're suggesting is kept quiet.

Yeah, it is.

How did you know which ability you got D2 was from which person? Until I claimed to have had the tracker, you had no way of knowing it wasn't q21 that passed you the Trace.

[nhammen]

N3 we had an Ability Cop, which just returns how many abilities someone had. It's... kind of useless actually, I didn't know what to do with it. We confirmed that q21 had 0 abilities N3.[/i][/color]

q21 is CONFIRMED TOWN. Unless Saint is scum. I asked the mod, and the Mafia Kill counts as an ability in the ability count. If you target scum, they will have at least 1 ability. Anybody with 0 is confirmed town.

[nhammen]

In fact, I targeted RedCoyote N2, and he had 1 ability, even though when he died, he was listed with no abilities. BTW, that really freaked me out. The only two players I targeted were both killed on the night I targeted them. I had to go back and check my role PM after that, to make sure I hadn't misread, because I was so incredibly freaked out.

[nhammen]

And the clarification PM just came in.

nhammen is

not correct

. Only the person using the factional kill will register as having that ability.
So, q21 isn't confirmed. I still think this reflects well on nhammen though.

Now I will have to re-clarify with the mod, because all that was said is that the kill counts on the results. I just figured it counts for all members. I guess I should have asked for more specifics. Will get back to you with more details.

[nhammen]

Saint's version is correct. My first version is incorrect.

Also, I would like to reiterate that our mod responds ungodly fast to queries. Awesome job!

[nhammen]

the whole misrepresentation from NHammen may not mean he is scum, but it definitely has my FoS

Not a misrepresentation, just a misunderstanding of the mod's answer. But I can easily understand why you feel that way.

#5 Can we please get take a look at the uber-suspicious Purge ability. Didn't DGB claim it cycled? So... should the person who held it before and after him be safe to come forward?

This is a large reason for the suspicions surrounding DGB. We

have

been taking a look at this.

If you read my plan, there is a reason:

1) q21 is scummy and has the treestump. The Purge Ability is the one chance to take them both out at the same time. DGB is off limits today.
2) DGB should be tracked. If they come back doing anything other than targeting q21, auto lynch from the group D5

If we are down 4 scum to start D5, DGB may still be the best lynch D5. That is a decision for then. But for now, DGB is off limits.

Am I the only person getting deja-vu? Didn't trying to direct the day-vig end badly for us? And now you want to direct a night vig that we don't even know any details of? That is looking more like a scum kill than a vig? I'm not sure that this plan will succeed any better than the previous one. I guess it's the best way we currently have... that's pretty bad though.

"Purge ability (whoever that may be ) is used on q21"
"DGball, should be tracked. If he gets tracked with anyone other than q21,

everyone needs to lynch him D5

."
"

If Purge is with someone other than DGB, what does this do? Is there really any point to tracking her? If she doesn't target q21, then q21 doesn't die, and we know to lynch DGB, so tracking her has no effect upon this plan.

DGB vs. Saint is full of useless; after the beginning, the same points just get repeated. Yes, I get that there is evidence pointing to DGB being a SK. You don't need to be repeating that point so much. The signal to noise ratio of this argument is extremely low. And it is making it difficult to read.

@Saint: ckd is scum. DGB is probably scum. The difference is massive.

Yes, between the failure to pass to tmh and generally not existing since sometime in Day 2 there's quite a bit of reason to believe that ckd is scum, and only a fragment of Page 4 words to defend him.

Contrast that with Goofball, who has been all but positively identified as scum and (separately) a killing element.

The difference looks like:
*ckd has a snowball's chance in Florida of being Town
*Goofball has a snowball's chance in Hell of being Town
*A Goofball lynch, if SK, would reduce the number of night-killing elements in the game by 1, slowing LyLo even with the Tree Stump still in play. If second scumgroup, it would cast everything that has been done during the Day and the Night so far in a completely different light.
Therefore a Goofball lynch is not only more likely to hit scum, but also more likely to help Town.

That is the crux of the argument. Which one is more likely to be scum than the other. There are reasons to suspect both, but it is very difficult to say who is worse. Both of you responding like the answer is obvious does nothing to help the situation.

@Pops, you ask me if I am kidding. You said anti-scum factions would kill each other first. Well if that is the case, why is the shotgunning team shooting at MOI, Diddin, and me/Implosion? Your theory seems to only work for one team...

MoI was not particularly pro-town, just really active.

Diddin had been publically confirmed not to be a part of the shotgun faction, and wasn't autotown at all. As good of a shotgun target as an Elite standing a meter away with his shields down.

As for shooting you, idk

. The shotgun faction might have thought tunneling and dueling scum is a thing. Or the primary scum faction may be less certain there are two factions, since the purge kill flavor had a rather positive ring to it. Or it'd be the second time someone who was attacking me had died, so perhaps I was the ~real~ kill target there.

How do you know they shot me? I said either me (Doctor Protection) or Implosion (Hibernate Ability)?

Interesting.

I will reiterate the "interesting" and raise a "he never responded to this."

As furc has explained, leaving DGB alive is the most dangerous thing regardless of whether she's SK or an entire scumteam.

1. If DGB is SK and ckd is scum, lynching DGB puts the ckd lynch off a day, but then we lynch ckd the next day and an explosion of confirmed innocents and other preponderances of information win the game.
2. If DGB is SK and ckd is scum, lynching ckd gains the same preponderance of information and we then proceed with great accuracy, but we do so while potentially losing two townies a night, dampening the autowin down to a maybe. Yeah, maybe DGB is terrible at mafia and shoots q21, but even then you're just changing autowin of (1) to autowin, at the risk of losing autowin. Zat's no good.

If DGB is Sk and ckd isn't scum, but rather someone who didn't post in any games because he really wasn't on mafiascum, then lynching him means we lose up to two townies tonight, don't even get the helpful information, and are forced to lynch DGB the next day, and basically it's just like 2 except even more fail.

This argument, coming from one of the scummiest players, is the best argument I have seen on the issue.

Frankly those who are saying that lynching DGB is scummy are idiots.
Scum would both want to keep DGB around so later down the line they can say, "Alright now lets stop scumhunting and kill this Sk we are all so sure about!"
Scum would also want to kill DGB now because it means they don't have to waste their NK on him and he is a threat to their win condidtion.
This all means that wanting/keeping DGB around is a null tell.

Selective scumhunting is usually regarded as a scumtell, because it is an easy way for scum to fake scumhunting. IN the case of this game, I would call it a nulltell, because most players agree that DGB looks like an SK. Your argument that it is a nulltell, however, seems fabricated to me.

DGB has claimed multiple kills, in a game with cyclable abilities.

Wait. Did I miss something? Where was this?

Although now that you mention it if he can't be aligned with Goofball and he stopped the "shotgunned" kill, LMP is confTown no matter what.[/i][/color]

And now you too. How do both you and pops know who the shotgun targeted last night?

Assuming CKD hops on the competing bandwagon, we have Scum suspects {BL, Pops, Saint, and CKD} on the DGB wagon.

My first thought was to mention something about arrogance... and it's my second thought too. But...

curiouskarmadog (5

[+2]

) -

implosion,

WrathChild,

I Am Innocent,

StrangerCoug,

LynchMePls,

[

nhammen

,

DrippingGoofball

]

DrippingGoofball (3

[+2]

) -

Saint,

Bunnylover,

popsofctown,

[

curiouskarmadog,

q21

]

*Black - Green if Goofball-SK, Red if Goofball-second team

...you do have a point.

I agree with his point, although, personally I would switch the colors of pops and Coug, and I'm not even sure what pink means. Is it more or less scummy than orange?

IAI, why do you still expect a player who has claimed SK to be motivated by threat of delayed lynches?

I have not claimed SK, get lost, now you're pushing the misrep a little too far.

I'm town and I win with the town. Furthermore, I'm totally anti-scum.

Alternate pro-town wincon softclaim? Not buying it since you already claimed Eruci earlier.

Could you please tell me how you got that from what she said?

ScumDGB could also have a role interaction involving a teammate to protect her from nightkills, perhaps the ability remover of confusing mechanics does it somehow even.

WOW

How did I miss that???

Where does this NK protection bizniss come from?

Where does this ability removal bizniss come from?

You tell me. Why do you think you're alive?

Are you insane? Or are you scum that knows something that nobody else does?

Hi pops! I see you have now ignored two questions from other players (and responded to some others in a very useless manner). I have quoted IAI's question for you, and have restated DGB's in a different form. Please answer.

But what if Q21 is town, and you're scum?

I am starting to think of this as a

very

distinct possibility. But I still think we need to purge q21.

(Minus the fact that otherwise sensible people are completely ignoring me, I'm kind of enjoying this.)[/i][/color]

I will honestly say I haven't decided on the issue yet. Both ckd and DGB are scummy based on night information, and I can see the arguments for lynching both of them.

[nhammen]

Roles that could determine a lack of scum teammates:

Treestump:

Implosion

->

Curiouskarmadog

->

I Am Innocent

->

q21

Day Vig:

diddin

->

themanhimself

(stole the ability) ->

StrangerCoug

/randomly sent to

WC -> WrathChild

Void Collector: (nobody D1) ->

I Am Innocent

->

StrangerCoug

->
Hibernate Ability:

quadz08

->

MOI

/Void/Collected by

I Am Innocent

->

Implosion

->
?:

popsofctown

(Virus) ->

DrippingGoofball

(DoubleVoter)/randomly sent to

LynchMe

-> LynchMePls -> ?
?:

Bunnylover

->

nhammen

->

Saint

-> ?
Tracker:

q21

/

nhammen

->

Implosion

->

I Am Innocent (Bunny)

-> ?
?:

q21

/

nhammen

->

Implosion

->

popsofctown

-> ?
Roleblock: Saint (DBE) ->

q21

->

Implosion (NC)

-> ?
Purge Ability?: ? ->

DrippingGoofball

-> ? -> ?

What does q21/nhammen mean?

It wasn't updated. I had Trace on D1, and q21 had ? on D1. Also, could you please use different colors for people that have flipped town and people that you believe to be town?

[nhammen]

But we do need to decide whether Q21 or pops is the scum that needs to die - regardless of the tree stump business. That's very important. Everyone should voice their opinion. EVERYONE. In their next post.

q21 needs to die tonight. However, you have stated that you believe pops to be more scummy than ckd. Does this mean you are changing the plan to pops lynch and q21 purge?

I glazed over the possibility that DGB is NK immune. At the (100%) risk of using self provided meta, my perspective on this may be biased because the only time I drew SK I got no such luxury.
As for the possibilities of an unknown role preventing the kill even after the massclaim and scum just declining to shoot, they seem so unlikely that they don't need to be repeated every time something gets analyzed.

I am talking about the Hibernate role, which could also have stopped the kill. I'm guessing you glazed over that too?

Given that Goofball is an SK (or even just a permanent Vigilante who lies and quickhammers, so it's pretty much the same thing)

I lol'ed.

And I chuckled hard.

In any event, you guys seem to know that I'm Eruci, so my having a scumteam can be eliminated - though lying quickhammerin' permavig remains an attractive possibility.

Is the virus something that gets used up?

Direct claim here.

I don't consider this a claim, but maybe I am letting DGB off the hook a little too much just cuz she is acting like DGB.

[nhammen]

Roles that could determine a lack of scum teammates:

Treestump: Implosion -> Curiouskarmadog -> I Am Innocent -> q21
Day Vig:

diddin

->

themanhimself

(stole the ability) ->

Void/

StrangerCoug/randomly sent to WC -> WrathChild
Void Collector: (nobody D1) -> I Am Innocent -> StrangerCoug ->
Hibernate Ability:

quadz08

->

MOI

/Void/Collected by I Am Innocent -> Implosion ->
?: popsofctown (Virus) -> DrippingGoofball (DoubleVoter)/randomly sent to LynchMe -> LynchMePls -> ?

Monitor

: Bunnylover -> nhammen -> Saint -> ?
Tracker: nhammen -> Implosion -> I Am Innocent (Bunny) -> ?

Neighborizer

: q21 -> Implosion -> popsofctown -> ?
Roleblock: Saint (DBE) -> q21 -> Implosion (NC) -> ?
Purge Ability?: ? -> DrippingGoofball -> ? -> ?

Night 3 Actions to pass along

LynchMePls: had one power role D3
popsofctown: had one power role D3
Saint: had one power role D3
StrangerCoug: had one power role D3 (two if you count the dayvig randomly being sent)
I Am Innocent: had two power roles D3
Implosion: had two power roles D3

nhammen: Vanilla Town D3
Curiouskarmadog: Vanilla Town D3
WrathChild: Vanilla Town D3
DrippingGoofball: Vanilla Town D3
q21: Vanilla Town D3
BunnyLover: Vanilla Town D3

When Day 5 happens we should do the following in order:

1) Everyone in their first post state who they sent an ability to Night 3
2) Once

everyone

has completed step #1, then everyone come forward on whether they had a power role Day/Night 4 or not.

Your most recent chart, with some updates (in purple)
1) I was Vanilla N3
2) I had Track last night, and since IAI had to be the one to send it to me, I decided to obey his instructions, and tracked DGB. Her two targets were q21 and LMP.

[nhammen]

Looks correct Wrath

[nhammen]

Pops passed to CKD

[nhammen]

No, Pops is green because he passed to CKD

[nhammen]

EBWOP: Neighborizer

[nhammen]

Pre-emptive apology for the wall...

Also @ StrangerCoug, you say you did not recover the dayvig, but it still passed on?

I would like the holder of the Void Collector from D4 to come forward and look at the rules and see if you buy that explanation? From the instruction I got, I had to say to recover the Hibernate Ability, even though it was the only one in the void...

Also @ StrangerCoug, you say you did not recover the dayvig, but it still passed on?

That is correct.

I am going to assume that what is meant here is that you did not CHOOSE to pass it on. But you did pass it on (randomly) because the mod required it (as explained by IAI). If this is not correct, then please explain more thoroughly, but this is what I have been assuming.

@DGB: Are you still claiming you didn't have the purge ability the night NC died?

I am the new generation. I make the program evolve.

The purge is always mine.

When I purge a player, or when I hammer a player (does this become clearer now?), I get to scan them for abilities. I can shelf their abilities, or I can re-circulate them.

I got the Ability Remover shelved, because it shouldn't fall into the hands of scum.

I got the Tree Stump shelved. It is no longer a threat. The Tree Stump is in my possession, yet it does not affect me.

Let me prove it, showing that I do have a vote:

VOTE: Pops

Now, it should be abundantly clear that I have been gunning for scum, and scum alone.

If I were a SK, I'd be gunning down townies that are likely to have abilities and I would have removed them from play. I also would not have attracted attention with repeated hammers (WIFOM, I know), on players that weren't supposed to have any abilities. I have only removed abilities that were a detriment to the town.

I am NOT NK-immune. The remaining scum will kill me tonight. I am their #1 enemy. I purged two of them from vote analysis alone, and hammered two that were wagoned by the rest of the town.

I think if we lynch pops, we will win the game right there and then.

If we don't, I will be NK'd.

The shelved abilities return to play when I die in a different way depending on whether I am killed during the day phase, or during the night phase.

Letting me die in the night phase would be best.

I suspect pops will fight this one tooth and nail, because his lynch is probably the end of the road for the Daevori

I am going to say something right now. Yesterday I believed that DGB was town, and after this, I still believed it. Maybe she had me completely duped. Maybe I was an idiot. But, then I saw one sentence that doesn't sit right with me:

I got the Ability Remover shelved, because it shouldn't fall into the hands of scum.

You didn't get the ability remover shelved. The person you replaced did. So this cannot be a true reason. Were you just making up reasons for your actions after the fact? And didn't remember that you weren't in the game at this point?

Mostly this. We have a set of confirmed towns and a set of unconfirmed towns. If we mass claim all abilities, we can orchestrate the usage and passing of all the abilities in the game in such a way that we are guaranteed a town win. At least, that's my theory.

But I actually have another idea I've been brewing where we massclaim, but in a controlled way:

We have all the NON-CONFIRMEDS do full claims, including their abilities. Then the CONFIRMED players discuss the targetting AND passing of those abilities. Ideally we force NON-CONFIRMEDS to pass to NON-CONFIRMEDS. In this way we create more links between the NON-CONFIRMEDS so that when we do lynch a scum, if the game doesn't end we should generate more CONFIRMEDS. We then proceed to lynch from the pool of NON-CONFIRMEDS until we hit the final scum.

Of course the downside to the massclaiming (or even the "semi" mass claim) is we're going to be conceding a kill to the scum every night, whereas right now they don't know who the best target is (due to protective abilities).

Also, I think DGB is the only proper lynch at this point. The fewer kills in this game state the better, and there is the incredibly likely chance that she is SK anyways.

TL;DR
What I'm saying is that I think with a mass claim by the NON-CONFIRMEDS plus some optimal strategy we can game this setup from this point to an auto win.

I am considering this. Although, I would like to ask what benefits this has over our current strategy. We learn of connections either way, but in your case we learn of them 1 day earlier. Is 1 day that important? I think that just telling people to only pass (non-important) abilities to nonconfirmed players that they have no connection with would be a fine idea.

I agree somewhat DGB, but I'll tell you what I fear. By your own admission you have been "shelving" powers and have been going out of your way to be the hammer vote on players. My fear is that you are an SK with an alternate win condition: namely one that requires you to "shelve" a certain number of powers. My fear can be founded on this game where we faced an SK that had an alternate win condition tied to the mechanics of that game.

I just don't feel comfortable with you alive running amok, "shelving" things and causing what I see now as a very town-win state into a less town-favored game state. At this point, if you are town as you claim, surely you can see the benefit in limiting us to 1 NK a night and removing the SK speculation.

Wow. This seems kinda like appeal to fear. Not something I would have considered coming from you. But, I'm going to consider this, and I'm going to have to ask if our mod has done anything like this in previous games he has modded. Because you may be right.

As for the mass claim, I am not so sure about that.

I do not want the Reuser Ability claiming, that is one where the Doctor ability could be used randomly on the "confirmed innocents".

I do think if if DGB dies D5, then the hibernate ability should be rotated to a confirmed innocent going forward.

*************************

So my suggestion:

The four confirmed innocents state whether they have the hibernate ability or not.

If none do, the person with the reuser ability randomly chooses one of the four players to protect. If one does have the hibernate ability, the person chooses one of the other three players to protect tonight. All randomly, and all quietly (DO NOT COME FORWARD WITH THE REUSER ABILITY, & ESP DO NOT SAY WHO YOU WOULD BE PROTECTING).

We lynch DGB. If he dies, we roleblock BunnyLover (who has claimed 0 abilities today) and Track StrangerCoug

If we lynch DGB and for some strange reasons he survives the lynch (Treestump?), we roleblock DGB and Track BunnyLover (who once again should have no abilities).

The the end of the night, Hibernate ability, and probably (?) reuser ability should be passed to Confirmed Innocent.

Thoughts people?

I would think that a better idea than having the confirmeds each claim whether they have the hibernate is to have whoever had it on N4 (this is the one ability that has not been accounted for N4) claim whether they passed it to a confirmed or non-confirmed. Then we can decide whether we want confirmeds claiming or not. Hibernate, and reuser should be passed to confirmeds. All other abilities can probably stay among non-confirmeds, although the confirming power of the roleblock might be useful enough to keep it in confirmed hands as well.

N4 I had the Monitor ability. I monitored q21, and he had an ability.

This means that he only had the Treestump, and so there must be at least one Devori other than q21 left. Or maybe the Devori no-killed and that would not be detected?

My suggestion, leave it up to whoever has the role currently on who to send it to.

I would say that common sense says we should not pass any protown roles to someone likely to be lynched the following day. But if DGB flips SK, we likely have 1, possibly 2, daevori left. So the need to eliminate scum pairings is probably not as important as keeping the abilities in the game.

Do you (or anyone else) think otherwise? Benefits I may be overlooking?

So, that was my thought, but specify that people should be trying to create as many connections as they can with abilities they have.

[nhammen]

Actually, I think I can guess where the Hibernate must be. Derp derp. If I am right, too much has been claimed already by multiple people.

[nhammen]

Here's for hoping LMP did not have the tracker last night!

He did. I sent him the tracker on the night before last.

I had nothing last night. I was considering claiming that to give RB a second target. Also, Wrath, did you pass to confirmed, or someone that died, or unconfirmed?

IAI - We have four confirmed non-Daevori now that LMP is added. The remaining four players are... WrathChild, Bunnylover, StrangerCoug, nhammen. As of right now only two of them are worth lynching.[/i][/color]

Note that LMP is not completely confirmed if Wrath flips scum (it could be a ballsy gambit). However, I have no problem with considering him confirmed until we see Wrath's flip.

I am in such a rage right now, I can't even begin to tell you how angry I am. WC, if you are town, YOU SHOULD QUIT PLAYING MAFIA. If you are scum, then you just cost your team any chance (however microscopic it was) at winning. So good job there.

WC is the only lynch I'll support today. Barring his holding a super important role (which I highly doubt). The only reason I'm not voting is I want all the claims that are needed out today, as well as the town to formulate another plan similar to yesterdays.

I agree with this. He should have been lynched after he hammered a claimed power role on Day 1.

Should non-confirmeds who are VTs today announce that? This way we can pick a good target for the RB? Or would this be too dangerous in that it might narrow down the NK choices for the scum?

I'm thinking that at least one VT should claim, but I'm not sure how to decide this.

Ok, I guess I tried to be a bit too clever. I didn't catch where LMP claimed non vanilla yesterday, and I legitimately thought he was scum. I have seen very little protown play from him and a lot of scummy play from him. You can look through my ISO and it will be obvious the issues I had with him. I figured Roleblocking any of the non-confirmed town would provide us with equal benefit, so I did not see my variance from the plan to roleblock Bunny as grievous as certain people are making it out to be at this time. I am not scum and can guarantee that any of the non-confirmed players are still a better lynch. I am now the easy target and would look heavy into those pushing my lynch at this moment. Unfortunately I'm traveling right now and won't have access till later tonight.

Chances are that the remaining scum are bunny and LMP. I will support the lynch of Bunny over LMP for obvious reasons.

So what you are saying is that you never read the MULTIPLE TIMES that we said that the reason we should block Bunny is because he claimed VT. If you aren't scum, then you are a liability to Town, as you have already shown by your actions last night.

I'm not sure if I'm going to accept a policy lynch.
I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to deter one.

This is as much policy as TMH and CKD were. Their night actions implicated them as much as the night actions implicate Wrath.

Plan: VOTE: nhammen

[nhammen]

Wrath makes a good point that there could be multiple scum, so LMP is not confirmed at all. Although, listening to anything he says at this point makes me feel somewhat dirty.

LMP also has a good point about Wrath's story changing.

[nhammen]

Also, I have asked the mod for an additional vote count.

Note: I feel kinda dumb for considering a scumteam with multiple people remaining that is gambiting with LMP being fake roleblocked, but not considering the possibility that scum is multiple people other than Wrath. I guess I had already decided that Wrath is scum.

[nhammen]

Thanks for the awesome job mod!!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wrath

That is L-2. Nobody else should vote Wrath yet, until we have a plan.

[nhammen]

I forgot that I said I would tell people why I chose to send to Saint. I had two reasons: A) I did not want to send to obvtown players that had a chance of being nightkilled, so on N2 and after, that ruled out iam and implosion and B) I wanted to create as many connections as I could, so I sent to different players every night from the very start of the game. If someone thought I was scummy, this action of trying to create as many connections as I could would have been seen as obviously pro-town. If I was scum and had done that, one flip would have ended the game. No scum in their right mind would ever take that risk. Whereas town has a large incentive to do this. It might have been better to tell this strategy to everyone now that I think about it, but while the game was ongoing, my main thought was that because scum knew who i had sent to on previous nights, they could easily narrow down the list of who I would send to this night.