Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[RayFrost]

Yo, reading this

hellhole

torture chamber of a game, currently at page 24. Please slow down with the posting.

[RayFrost]

Any urgent questions should be directed to my secretary: bob the builder. I'm sure he can fix whatever problem you have.

[RayFrost]

Okay, FFFFUUUU. I'm stopping for the night at page 36. This stuff's too long for a one-night read + something coherent at the end of it. I'll read the rest o the 300000 pages you guys pop up while I'm sleeping tomorrow.

Current opinion from where I'm at:

unvote

I srsly have no scum reads right now. Too burnt out from a 5/6 post noise/redundancy ratio that is this game to come up with anything. I'll get back to you when I'm done reading through.

[RayFrost]

FATE CALM DOWN.

CHRONOPIE CALM DOWN.

BOTH OF YOU GET TO SCUMHUNTING. (Hint: scumhunting is ----> this way)

I'll be starting where I let off, now.

[RayFrost]

First off, an image to express my reaction of the ythan vs LLD debate:


SRSLY. You've rehashed this argument e4173851740857 times.

NAYRU

MAY OR MAY NOT

BE AQUATIC. <-- FACT
THE CLAIM

MAY OR MAY

NOT BE FAKE. <--- FACT
FLAVR

WILL NOT WORK

IN BREAKING THIS GAME OR FIGURING OUT WHO IS SCUM. <--- FACT
STOP DEBATING IT.
JUST.
STOP.

Second off, most of the posting in this thread is redundant, contentless arguments like above. STOP IT OR RISK THIS HAPPENING TO YOU:


Now that's out o' the way...

Let's move on to who the scum are.

or cop, or doctor, or mafia...

First post in forever, and it's defending BL with no content. Gais, scum found. Srsly, substrike, wtf. WHY ARE YOU NOT POSTING?

Your first post in forever is a one-liner that does absolutely fuck all.

Your next post is contentless complaining about the lolbashing between LLD and Ythan without actually doing a damned thing to prevent it or provide alternatives.

Your overall play is, in of itself, not contributing and lurky.

This guy's got the right idea. And he's town. C-C-COMBO

Gandalf/Shotty = scum

The contradiction of 'lynch the guy that's confirmed cuz lolVI' and 'nooo nu lynch VI'

in combination with 'LYNCH YTHAN, LL IS RIGHT' with 'LL IS WRONG, YTHAN IS TOWN' bugs the hell out of me.

Now, this could be born from the fact you guys are a hydra, but I'm not going to be lenient about this. You should've gotten your act together before you decided to post stuff.

These two are scum.

I do not understand the chronopie case, and would like it if someone (re)iterated it.

I do not agree with a cupcake lynch at this time, nor do I agree with a LLD lynch at this time.

As far as I can see, the argument for lynching cupcake is the POSSIBILITY that cupcake made a fakeclaim. That's a crap case.

As far as I can see, the argument for lynching LLD is the fact she said there is a POSSIBILITY of Nayru being aquatic (well... more said 'THIS BE TRUTH' but eh). That's a crap case.

I don't agree with lynching ythan either.

GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER, PEOPLE.

THIS IS PAGE 60 AND YOU LOT ARE STILL GOING CRAP CASES.

Seriously.

If you are so incapable of coming up with good cases, just follow my lead here:

Vote: GIS

Mod: Requesting VoteCount.

[RayFrost]

This wall of text has been brought to you by BSCRAPPLAYWITHSHITTONOFPOSTING.

Let's make sure I don't have to whip out another one, mmmkay?

[RayFrost]

Oh, and for the possibility of verdant.

Read the first <--- FACT bit but switch it to "VERDANT

MAY OR MAY

NOT BE A QUALIFIER IN THIS GAME"

[RayFrost]

Hey gais, respond to my post.

kthx.

[RayFrost]

Here's what I don't get: why is the argument about whether or not Nayru would be aquatic? Shouldn't it bug you guys a lot more than Naryu DOES NOT REALLY APPEAR IN THE GAME? The claim is bullshit because Nayru isn't a character in the game. She only appears in historical cutscenes.

vote Cupcake

your claim is bullshit and you are scum

NAYRU

MAY OR MAY

NOT BE A ROLE IN THIS GAME. <--- FACT

WHETHER YOU THINK NAYRU IS NOT A VALID PART OF THE GAME

DOES NOT MATTER

. <--- FACT

The mods decided the roles, not you.

[RayFrost]

EBWOP (plus a bit extra): Second fact needs to leave out the first not.

Oh, and I forgot the important bit of that:

Voting purely based off of the claim is bad play.

It's assuming too many things about the mods' thought processes. You'd have to assume the mods 1) didn't provide fakeclaims (if cupcake was scum, flavor-proof fakeclaims would be necessary in a heavily flavored game like this one) and 2) consider Nayru /other goddesses to be insignificant (you aren't psychic, so yeah).

[RayFrost]

I think I love you.

<3

Sooo, Madame Lambdadelta, would you care to join me on the wonderful GIS wagon?

[RayFrost]

Ythan's push on cupcake seems like overzealous town tunneling more than scum stretching to remove the validity of a claim - it's a high flavor game, so trying to tear down a potential fakeclaim through flavor is a surefire way to attract attention for no benefit.

Although I agree that he's being an arrogant arse, I do not think that it means he is scum.

LL, would you kindly post all of your questions that you feel Ythan has failed to answer in your next post? This way, nobody has to trawl through the fifteen pages of "NO U" to find the questions you feel are relevant.

I'm giving your case a fair deal here, but I have to say that the likelihood of ythan getting lynched today is nil. It simply isn't going to happen. He's an arrogant arse that lacks enough knowledge to know what he doesn't know (from my read). Others are scum.

Preview edit to acknowledge the EBWOP:

Whether or not the

wagon

dies is uncertain. I won't give ythan, or anybody else for that matter, a free ride. All I can promise.

[RayFrost]

This guy's got the right idea. And he's town. C-C-COMBO

Gandalf/Shotty = scum

The contradiction of 'lynch the guy that's confirmed cuz lolVI' and 'nooo nu lynch VI'

in combination with 'LYNCH YTHAN, LL IS RIGHT' with 'LL IS WRONG, YTHAN IS TOWN' bugs the hell out of me.

Now, this could be born from the fact you guys are a hydra, but I'm not going to be lenient about this. You should've gotten your act together before you decided to post stuff.

I'll iso-read and then (if i have the time) get a post up with other points.

[RayFrost]

I wanna add here: Why is LL scum and Cupcake town?
Sorry, I can't see scum motivation for defending a townie for well over 20 pages over flavor. This seems too much of effort to look townie.
It's

more likely that both are scum

and since Cupcake is bulletproof LL is defending her heavily so not to lose their most powerful(?) role D1.
The other option would be LL town and she just believes Cupcake is town beyond common sense.
But I simply don't see LL-scum/Cupcake-town motivation for LL's behaviour here.

You forget one crucial possibility.

They could both be town.

*gasp*

The reason that LL-town could be defending Cupcake-town in this instance is the following:

The

incorrect

use of flavor as an argument needs to get countered, LL did so. Fact: So did I, and I would've done so if I were around during the debate. The flavor argument was wrong and bad. LL's posts read as someone

pointing out how crappy that case is

. This has nothing to do with LL's actual read of cupcake.

@ LL:

I am aware. The issue was all the stuff you tacked on + the fact people didn't/don't like you. Extra stuff gets lumped with the Nayru stuff, and people go for discrediting everything from generic

I don't agree with you

mindset. *shrugs* I'm a new face, and I stated it as its own stuff.

[RayFrost]

Claims a desire to have a competing bandwagon, but does to actually get it.

The logic is fine, but the next post shows a complete lack of understanding as to the incentive(s) that a scumbuddy would have for saving chess. Specifically, the

absolute lack of positive impact

from doing so. Seems like convenient blindness more than actual lack of understanding.

This contradicts url #1

This is blatant role fishing (the "I'm not trying to role fish" is flim flam), and it's not a valid point for a vote if it's just a possibility, but I've already gone into that.

This contradicts the argument that Nayru's flavor doesn't fit. If scum have fakeclaims and cupcake is scum, flavor fits. If cupcake is town, flavor fits.

THIS POST MAKES NO SENSE. "I could make it so I'm the only one vannilized, BUT I AM SUPER IMPORTANT ROLE LOLOL" <--- No reason to claim in any fashion, yet still does so while offering to be vannilized. The contradiction is palpable.

I like the self-meta, since it's a scumslip. "I hate when people compare other people to their own play, cuz I do it when I'm scum." Even admits to doing so. Hai scum. Not getting how GIS is getting "King Zora CAN'T be scum"

Arguing that LL has only said one protown thing... feh, obvious disagreement from me, but anyway... bashing on LL for not providing content in

one post

is bad, considering the relative number of contentless post from GIS, not to mention the fact

LL was behind by 30 pages

. Who the hell's going to make a contentful post when they have 30 pages to read?

Quoting LL as saying she wants to save her buddy in the post also contradicts the fact GIS also said something similar previously.

Ythan is not the most obvtown player. I am. (aside from me, fate's more obvtown than ythan) I also don't see why gandalf is bashing LL for 'voting frm one mistake' when ythan was voting off of flavor, which is approximately equivalent.

Re dram and reck would totally confirm town via flavor: Yes, because dram and reck would totally out scum through flavor (roles).

Next two posts are without content. Hmmm... what was it that GIS said?

Ah yes.

Thanks for not providing any content.

[RayFrost]

I can't see the scum motivation for the inconsistency between the heads of GIS.

The inconsistency's hardly the largest part, though there is easily potential for scum motivation:

By the hydra being scum, they can make use of shotty's VI rep to allow them to support pretty much any wagon and then, whenever pressure is applied, gandalf can come in and go "lolwut? SHOTTY STOP FUCKING UP" to excuse things.

Read my above post for other stuff I don't like.

[RayFrost]

My vote stays on Cupcake, I think she's acted the most legitimately scummy out of everyone and

I haven't seen much else that's been scummy. I've noted contradictions in Gandalf's play as well,

so I'd be willing to switch my vote over there after I get a chance to iso, but for now I'll leave it on Cupcake.

Pointing out what's been scummy in cupcake's play would be a great way to help.

Blatant following of the popular bandwagon is noted, btw.

Also, bolded a contradiction.

Still, GIS is scum, you are just scummy.

[RayFrost]

BE:

Give a reason for all your scum reads in your next post or daysuicide.

Then join me on the GIS lynch.

@ Fate:

Requesting formal entrance into the caps lawke alliance provided I don't have to caps lawke. Also DEMANDING a GIS vote.

[RayFrost]

I can't see the scum motivation for the inconsistency between the heads of GIS.

The inconsistency's hardly the largest part, though there is easily potential for scum motivation:

By the hydra being scum, they can make use of shotty's VI rep to allow them to support pretty much any wagon and then, whenever pressure is applied, gandalf can come in and go "lolwut? SHOTTY STOP FUCKING UP" to excuse things.

Read my above post for other stuff I don't like.

So you think that I'm posting and pretending to be shotty? Lol. Also, shotty's vote is hardly support for a wagon.

No, no.

I'm saying that, via your hydra QT, you can coordinate shotty's "poor" play. It's not a point against you guys, just my responding to nikanor to show a potential scum mtivation for inconsistency.

A vote's a vote, regardless of who is making it.

[RayFrost]

I can't believe you just asked me that.

Worthless posts make me :RAEG:

Are you trying to make me angry, BC? No? Then thank you for admitting to being scum.

Unless, of course, you are actively choosing to be worthless? In that case, you still need to die.

@ Fate:

Requesting formal entrance into the caps lawke alliance provided I don't have to caps lawke. Also DEMANDING a GIS vote.

And... just went down several notches in my book.

But he was right, I did need to cool off. I can see where he's coming from.

BE on the other hand, has done nothing,

nothing

in this game, apart from follow others lead, and use other's posts as justification. First, sheeping Ythan in a flavour based attack on Cupcake and LLD. The latter of which seem like a townie very much enthused about the flavour, the former... slightly scummy for sitting back and letting LLD defend solo. Secondly, sheeping Fate for idk what reason, in voting me.

VOTE: BE

Meh. The requesting entry is more my seeing how fate reacts. If he's not amenable to my joining, the likelihood that he's paying much attention to what I'm saying is lessened. *shrug*

I'm not sure what you mean by "I can see where he's coming from." Where do you see me coming from? What is your perception of my stance(s)?

Do you feel that BE's coattailing and overall worthlessness is scummier than my case against GIS, or are you just ignoring that?

[RayFrost]

This game needs more posts from the following players:

1. Untrod Tripod
2. DTMaster
3. Fate
5. jmj3000
6. Kairyuu
7. Exilon
8. Just a Bit Off-Center
9. Le Cupcake
10. Blooderection
12. Chronopie
14. ZONEACE
15. Hinduragi
18. mothrax
20. zwetschenwasser
21. Jenniwren
22. Substrike22
23. Mafuyu
25. Albert B. Rampage
26. Kdub
27. bunnylover
28. Aikage

Yes, I did copy and paste the playerlist in the OP for this. Yes, some of the people listed have made a recent post, but, if you are in this list, then that means I feel your most recent posting is not adequate in the level of WORTH A DAMN.

[RayFrost]

Prodded Untrod Tripod, Substrike22, DTMaster, and Kairyuu.
Note: both of the mods will be in Montreal this weekend, thus fairly V/LA Friday through Tuesday.

What are you doing in Montreal?

What are you doing not posting content?

[RayFrost]

GIS wagon is lazy. Ythan wagon is retardedly scummy. All other wagons are pointless and a waste of time.

So all wagons are bad. Great job. Get on the GIS wagon so we can go to night, at least. No point in just waiting 'till deadline, and I

highly

doubt anything new's gonna happen.

[RayFrost]

... it's not a policy wagon.

Read my posts. There's a case.

Also, read my posts; LL's argument about cupcake's claim was sound and has no alignment tells in it. You two arguing over it created hostility without any actual scumtells. It's Town On Town, no scum involved between you two, though scum likely engaged in promoting the argument.

See through your own emotional attachment to being right.

[RayFrost]

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a

lolconnections

reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

Care to wax philosophical on why LL is scummy?

[RayFrost]

Meh, vote's not that opportunistic in my opinion. It seems more lazywantingthegamedaytoend than trying to take advantage of any tide or somesuch. It' have been oportunistic if he said that before I came in.

LL, watch your OMGUS. Your reads are going haywire because of it.

[RayFrost]

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a lolconnections reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

~

How is Cupcake linked to Chess, for example?
How does Cupcake's flip reveal anything note-worthy relating to him? Or Ythan?

I've said why LLD is scummy sometimes, and I wasn't the only one.
Buddying, 'chainsaw' defense (in a way), flavor speculation which doesn't lead anywhere and comes out of context, and an overall 'I'm trying to look townie' vibe.

I'm sick of Day 1. Let's move forward.

>Same claimed elemental additive, plus chess took a stance on the cupcake's flavor debate even if he didn't get into a debacle of a fight with Ythan. Connection Exists.

>Ythan was

attacking cupcake

over

flavor speculation

. Clear Connection.

>I've buddied with people (prominent example: fate). Would you say that I'm scummy for doing so? There's also a difference between

saying someone's town or that you like their play

and buddying. One's idle commentary / giving a read, the other is a subtle attempt to get on people's good side.

>It's not chainsaw defense to tell Ythan that he's wrong (pro-tip: he

was

wrong), get pissed off when he accuses her of being scum defending a scumbuddy and end up in a bashing contest with him. It's called correcting someone and being mad when they insult you. Null tell. Attacking someone that's caused negative emotions = emotional reaction, not scum/town reaction.

>If you are going to call her out for flavor speculation, you should also call out ythan and everybody else that even partially engaged in the debate surrounding cupcake's claim. Null tell, unless a

lot

of people are scummy.

>"I'm trying to look townie" vibe is displayed by... what? Is it displayed by the fact she's defending herself? Is it displayed by the vehemence in which she does so? Strength of self-defense is not indicative of alignment, especially when the same reasoning is being put forth for why a person should be lynched. Repeated argument that's been defended against = exasperation = increasingly vehement defense.

>And then you add "I'm sick of day 1, let's move forward" which is clearly what I'd said before "tryingtogetthedaytoendalready" mentality.

RayFrost, do you have actual evidence that

By the hydra being scum, they can make use of shotty's VI rep to allow them to support pretty much any wagon and then, whenever pressure is applied, gandalf can come in and go "lolwut? SHOTTY STOP FUCKING UP" to excuse things.

is more likely than the alternative?

I actually have a relevant post. Also keep in mind that it's just a listed possibility. I don't feel that either one's particularly more likely than the other. I just feel that it's not good to try and give a bye based upon "lolhydraignoreallcontradictions" type mentalities.

Preview edit:

Yes, I was in that game, DTM. I recall that, which is why Ythan isn't superlolobvtown for me. Still, thank you for actively pointing it out (I didn't recall the exact game)

[RayFrost]

But saying their claim is absolute crap based off of the fact it includes "aquatic" as an elemental qualifier is not sound. At all.

It's less dismissing every reference to flavor and more saying we

LACK THE INFORMATION

necessary to make any real connections regarding the flavor we do have. It's worthless to speculate about flavor at this point when there's virtually no information to go off of in the first place - it's distracting and detracts from the actual scumhunting. Evidence: the MANY pages of noise generated from your push at cupcake where you reiterated the same argument over and over.

Whether or not the blue particles are nayru's love is indeterminate at the moment. It's something to be left alone due to the lack of any real support for either side as more true.

That said, GIS is scum. This lynch needs to happen.

[RayFrost]

Oh, well.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gis

I can agree with this. STILL GOOD TO SEE HOW EVERYONE DROPPED LAMBDADELTA OFF SO EASILY. Specially herself with her scummy-opportunistic vote. Then she calls me opportunist.

Ray:

- LD chainsaw'd defended Cupcake by attacking Ythan. More, her flavour speculation isn't reduced to Cupcake's claim. I'm talking about some of her posts who just appear out of nowhere with stuff that doesn't really add any meningful content, except scan people's possible answers so as to gain some insight on the game's flavour /roles.
- Buddying doesn't have to be a scum tell, but I was using it as an example of what she has done which can be considered scummy.

> Speculation of flavor isn't necessarily scummy, just poor play / not useful this early in the game. Flavor speculation still happens a shitload in themed games. *shrug*
> Sooo... 'it could've been called a scumtell, but it isn't necessarily one,' but you avoided saying that it may be a null tell in your original post... why, exactly?

[QQ]peoplevotingme![/QQ]

That said, GIS is scum. This lynch needs to happen.

Explain now

[QQ]peoplevotingme[/QQ]

ohai

Oh, just noticed a missing phrase in my first point there: it should be "does little to nothing to actually get it" rather than "does to actually get it" I must've been tired when I wrote that.

Also... why are people generally

not

asking me for my case on GIS? I'm kinda the one who started the wagon, so yeah. 'side frm that, I will not support a LL lynch on this game day. LL is a town read, and my town read is correct.

I'm finding it interesting that substrike

and

GIS keep getting scummier as the day goes on. Here's hoping there's a vig.

[RayFrost]

jmj, I'm seeing a whole lot of tet without a whole lot of who's scum and why.

Care to give?

[RayFrost]

Hey Albert, I loved you more when you were aggressive and shit.

What's changed?

[RayFrost]

chesskid isn't being lynched.

If you'd like, merely iso read myself and hinduragi for the cases on GIS and substrike. Vote from there.

[RayFrost]

I'd like it if GIS claimed, but I don't think that we are going to have time to switch to substrike regardless of what is claimed, so it'd be purely informational. The fact GIS has stalled so much in claiming and never actually replied to my case don't look good.

@ kdub:

Yeah, that was a

terrible

game on my part. e.e" Jesus, that brings bad memories to the fore. IME, I play better when I replace in. *shrugs* Besides, I'm coming back from a break off of mafia, so yeh. Expect some gameplay changes.

[RayFrost]

Since you are here, I might as well ask...

did you find cupcake to be particularly scummy based off of the flavor argument that ythan was using to discredit the claim?

Also, what indication did you have to make you say this? According to your rule, you'd have no evidence for this,

especially

considering the fact your role has an elemental modifier.

[RayFrost]

Aikage. GIS is scummy. There's not enough time (imo) to change over to someone else (substrike). The roleclaim's a null tell as far as I'm concerned. There's more reasons to disbelieve it than reasons to believe it, meaning GIS is still scum.

Reasons to disbelieve:

GIS felt it necessary to only hint at the power role when it's a (nigh near) bulletproof role. Simply claiming (especially earlier in the game day) would've clearly been better.
GIS hasn't mentioned any questions they asked for clarification when there's a bit of ambiguity on a bit of that role PM. What do the mods define as "next to" when mentioning the playerlist? Numbered from all players or by those alive? What do the mods define as normal kills? Does the "you can only use one activity per phase" mean that using the active ability removes GIS' immunity to kills? (I'd like to point out that, if it doesn't, the inclusion of that in the PM to GIS is pointless, meaning we aren't getting GIS' full role PM, if that's the actual role PM at all)

Reasons to believe:

I can't think of any of the top of my head.

[RayFrost]

ITT, nikanor doesn't read my full post.

What do the mods define as normal kills? Does the "you can only use one activity per phase" mean that using the active ability removes GIS' immunity to kills? (I'd like to point out that, if it doesn't, the inclusion of that in the PM to GIS is pointless, meaning we aren't getting GIS' full role PM, if that's the actual role PM at all)

[RayFrost]

Flavor-wise, it's fine.

The point of the previous mention of the verdant being right thing is meh, as the mods could include it as a safeclaim, meaning that it'd have to be viable. Null tell.

[RayFrost]

That was not the hammer. Substrike has no vote.

[RayFrost]

Le Cupcake (2): Substrike22, Ythan, Untrod Tripod
Lady Lambdadelta (2): Blooderection
Mafuyu (1): "Fluffy", Aikage
Blooderection (1): mothrax
GandalfIzSik (11): KDub, zwetschenwasser, RayFrost, Fate, ABR, Le Cupcake, Lady Lambdadelta, Exilon, Bunnylover, jenniwren, Nikanor, Beefster
Nikanor (1): Mafuyu
Substrike22 (6): Hinduragi, chesskid3, DTMaster, JaBOC, Dekes, GandalfIzSik[/color]

Mods: I would like to know if the 11 on GIS' wagon here is accurate. I count 12 names.

[RayFrost]

Memory

[RayFrost]

That means we need two more votes for GIS. FFFFUUUUU.

[RayFrost]

Since you are here, I might as well ask...

did you find cupcake to be particularly scummy based off of the flavor argument that ythan was using to discredit the claim?

Also, what indication did you have to make you say this? According to your rule, you'd have no evidence for this,

especially

considering the fact your role has an elemental modifier.

It was just speculation, thinking about Hylians.

Riiiiight. That explains the certainty. "lol this is truth"

GIS felt it necessary to only hint at the power role when it's a (nigh near) bulletproof role. Simply claiming (especially earlier in the game day) would've clearly been better.
GIS hasn't mentioned any questions they asked for clarification when there's a bit of ambiguity on a bit of that role PM. What do the mods define as "next to" when mentioning the playerlist? Numbered from all players or by those alive? What do the mods define as normal kills? Does the "you can only use one activity per phase" mean that using the active ability removes GIS' immunity to kills? (I'd like to point out that, if it doesn't, the inclusion of that in the PM to GIS is pointless, meaning we aren't getting GIS' full role PM, if that's the actual role PM at all)

Lol you're scum too? How is that ambiguous? They are obviously referring to the people above and below on the list. When they say normal kills, they probably mean strongmen, etc. I think probably all Role PMs have that one activity per phase clause. And BPness isn't an active ability. How would claiming as a BP role have been better?
Christ really, I've been crumbing BP all day.

It's really a shame that we're so close to deadline, because I would MUCH rather lynch Fate or Dekes than Substrike.
By the way, is everyone missing the part where our ability is pretty easily confirmable?

LolOMGUS. The ambiguity is whether it's merely living players. This is a consideration because there are roles like... oh, I don't know... reviver.

Meh. I admit.

... you clearly don't understand what I was saying.And your ability isn't confirmable. At all.


preview edit: beefster, that's old news

[RayFrost]

I would like to request that the scumteam admit that GIS is one of their members. Please, don't be shy. I promise that we won't lynch you immediately.

[RayFrost]

Reading substrike's claim, I

do not

think that any of the other sages should claim at this time. Substrike's not necessarily town even if he's telling the truth about

every other detail

in his claim. There's no return for town if the other sages to claim in order to merely confirm that substrike is part of the neighbor group.

LL - There is no contradiction in the alignment is not confirmed bit. There's such a thing as neighbors, which, I believe, is essentially substrike's claim.

[RayFrost]

I just read the claim as well: This reminds me of Legacy of Ancients Council mafia where members of the high council consisted of town/scum members. With a neighbor hood that large (which Fate claimed 7-8 ??? I think) this reads as it.

Substrke claimed there are six. I'd trust his number more than fate's guess. Just saying.

[RayFrost]

Hmmmmmm. Reading what you said, DTM, I'm not entirely sure that I get how you are thinking of breaking the game from your theory. Following the logic that there's a mix of a and b, we'd still not know for sure what the mix is. In addition, there's the consideration that there's almost certainly at least one scum amongst the neighbors. That will throw off the mix as well. DTM, do you feel that it's a good idea for you to elaborate on your thoughts regarding the game breaking? I'm currently of a mind for you to leave it until at least tomorrow.

[RayFrost]

I think that, right now, we should not go into trying to break the game. Our information is far, far too limited. The only way this works is if the neighbors are mostly sleepers, and having them claim that information seems an iffy choice. Let's hold off on trying to analyze the possibility until we've had some flips, shall we?

[RayFrost]

Just so you know, flavor wise, there are only 6 sages.

That part of the Sage claim is true.

Canonically speaking, there are 7 sages (7th is Zelda). Either seven or six makes sense, as there is the fact Zelda is not

quite

certain as a sage type (as in the element attached, not whether zelda is a sage).

[RayFrost]

You're all scum. Now die.

QFW.

[RayFrost]

I don't agree with revealing more of the neighbors.

It'd be forcing a premature claim out of people that aren't necessarily considered scummy by the town. Nikanor, why are you trying to get chronopie and substrike to reveal more of the neighbors?

Here's how I view the cost / benefits:

Benefits:

We get to know the suspicions of chronopie / substrike (but we can get this without revealing more of the neighbors)

Negatives:

Unnecessary revealing of roles of other people in the game (especially giving scum knowledge of who to kill when it comes down to sleepers coming into their powers)

As the first can be done without revealing who the neighbors are, I see asbolutely no reason to do so.

[RayFrost]

Nameloc, I'm going to assume that you finished your read over the night...

Who do you think is scum?

Why?

As to why chronopie didn't get unsealed... I have no idea. I'm not really sure how a twinrova would work in the first place. Still, I see little value to speculating about it.

[RayFrost]

Because Chronopie and Substrike, if town, should have been attacking at least one or two of the neighbors. If they were not attacking at least one of their neighbors, they are scum. It would give me a much better read on two of the main lynch candidates of the day.

I see. I'd agree with your idea provided there was a no role reveal, merely a reveal that the person is one of the neighbors in question. This way, we can keep the knowledge of which neighbor got transformed, if any, away from public knowledge.

[RayFrost]

The neighbors would know is unsealed, yes. The scum in the neighbors would also reveal to their partners, yes. I don't see how revealing who you suspect out of the neighbors is revealing all of them, though.

Oh! I just had a genius idea.

Everybody

:

Make a list of the top three players in this game that you'd want to have revealed as neighbors (including why gets you a free hug coupon that is redeemable at the end of the game) in order of preference.

#1 gets 3 points
#2 gets 2
#3 gets 1

The only part of this idea that I haven't completed is the point threshold. Nikanor, help me out here. I'm trying to figure out a number that'll limit the ability of scum to manipulate this. Any thoughts?

My idea is that, if any of the neighbors exceed the threshold, that they are revealed as a neighbor. This way, we avoid revealing people based upon chrono / substrike alone and, instead, get it off of the town's judgment. I don't exactly trust either of them to have good logic. Just sayin'

[RayFrost]

As a matter of following through with my own idea, here is my list:

1. blooderection - overall, hasn't really put any case forth for anybody, generic noise reaction to being questioned and a lot of RAEG and NOU without a lot of HERESWHY.
2. bunnylover - early day posting was so light and empty that I read it and felt hungry while late day posting had light stuff when actually talking about things outside of defense, seems as if bunnylover's only posting a lot when he's defending his actins. This isn't one of those quantity vs quality things, since the posts aren't exactly quality.
3. exilon - mixture of gut as well as end of the day push at LL based off of something rather flimsy and then suddenswitch to GIS. It doesn't sit as opportunism, but I'd hardly call it townish. At a loss for words to express the reason there.

[RayFrost]

Oh, by the way, my top scumread is substrike, not those guys. chrono's my #4 or #7, don't really remember which..

[RayFrost]

Oh, something to keep in mind.

"Water-killer" and "Plant-killer" are part of koume and kotake's roles. Something tells me that there are other "xattribute-killer" roles out there, which provides new emphasis to the verdant/aquatic/etc clarifications.

[RayFrost]

As of right now, I can only say what's on my gut. 80 pages and only one read through is not a whole lot to go on TBH.

Lol.

[RayFrost]

The only part of this idea that I haven't completed is the point threshold. Nikanor, help me out here. I'm trying to figure out a number that'll limit the ability of scum to manipulate this. Any thoughts?

That doesn't help, because I want to know who Chronopie and Substrike find most suspicious, not who the rest of the town finds suspicious.

I'm fine with you getting who they think is most suspicious, but why should they reveal who the neighbors are at this time? I don't see either of them as particularly trustworthy on the scale of AccurateReads^TM. If you are just asking about their scumspects, then neighbor or not is rather unimportant. It won't change how flimsy / strong their cases are.

[RayFrost]

Exilon's suffered a drastic changeinstyle. I don't like it.

Continual insistence that LL is scum without real backing is not healthy. Case or die.

[RayFrost]

On another note, the neighbor claim is interesting... The 2 sisters, when combined, are commonly known as Twinrova. If they're both dead... it would seem that the Spirit Sage /SHOULD/ be released...

Also, if I am informed correctly, Neighbors don't need to be allignment confirmed? If this is true, I don't like the claim of Spirit Sage.

FoS Chronopie

This being said, I am not convinced these Sage claims are even valid. So, for the reasons I previously stated:

VOTE: Substrike

I think DTM's theory is valid. Aside from that, What don't you like about the spirit sage claim? Chrono's claimed one of the sages. I see no problem with this. Are you going off of the game plot that the two witches mindcontrolled the spirit sage to turn against link?

Also don't understand your most recent EBWOP

[RayFrost]

Although I agree that it made little sense, I see no scum motivation for claiming, either. It's a failtell rather than an alignment tell.

P-edit:

'ey cupcake, weigh in on the neighbors revealing themselves debate.

[RayFrost]

BE, voting masons = good idea... how?

[RayFrost]

Exilon. I would like to request that you day-cop someone other than the masons and give a result. Specifically one of substrike, BE, ythan, or chrono.

I'd like to point out, though, that kai had partial-claimed a boss (If I read his role correctly) turned town-aligned.

Also... nikanor claimed that LL was a PGO. It'd make sense for you to try and lynch her as scum, so the fakeclaim's not entirely bought by me.

Excuse me if I prefer a nikanor lynch over a lynch on LL if we are going to test this.

[RayFrost]

I trust DTM's judgment here.

[RayFrost]

Responding to ythan's posts in order:

Yes.

Why?

Yes, yes, we've moved past that business.

I disagree. Read moar to find out why.

[RayFrost]

Mafuyu said earlier that the vote was the result of braking a requirement in Mafuyu's role. I could speculate as to the reasons that such a role would exist but I'd rather not without more information, at least. For now, don't mind nameloc. He'll be a danger to town when it gets closer to lylo, but not a risk at the moment.

[RayFrost]

Mafuyu always spoke/speaks in third person. It's something she does regardless of role unles the role restricts such an action.

[RayFrost]

Fate [KOUME],

Fire Witch Lover Copblocker Plant-Killer

, killed N1
Just A Bit Off-Center [KOTAKE],

Ice Witch Lover Jailkeeper Water-Killer

, committed suicide N1

It is now Day 2. Deadline is 3 weeks from this post.

[/b]

Okay guys, help me out here.

How in the fuck does this say that Fate flipped SK, especially when he's the same team as another person? I'm really just not understanding how you all came to such a completely stupid conclusion. There's no evidence that they are SK. We don't have role PMs just from this.

[RayFrost]

it's not blue

lolwut? "it's not the hero (town) aligned color, so it must be SK!"

How in the fuck does this say that Fate flipped SK, especially when he's the same team as another person? I'm really just not understanding how you all came to such a completely stupid conclusion. There's no evidence that they are SK. We don't have role PMs just from this.

BUT EXILON CLAIMED BOSS-COP.
AND FATE FLIPPED A BOSS, SCUM.
THAT MEANS HE WAS SK RITE.

... please tell me you're joking.

Please.

[RayFrost]

I believe that the VC's accuracy does not indicate a lack of shift. Considering that the rolling attack was activated before most of those votes, we can't be sure about the location of the shift (or even eliminate some possibilities).

[RayFrost]

EBWOP: a lack of shift towards the new votes, rather

[RayFrost]

Shift.
GREAT. <.<
fherfjherfgjergkjwrgkb. Anyway.
I checked with the mod, when inquired about sanities, he implied I was sane (he said that this wasn't a bastard mod).

In any case, I never saw shifts in not-bastard games.
So, with that cleared, what is exactly the shift? So I can put my ability to good use.

Also, I was the first one that said Fate was SK. I kinda went along with that because of the color and 'attribute-killer' line. (Also lovers). Doesn't look like scum group at all.

This doesn't have to be a bastard mod for sanity to be left undetermined....

Shift is (as far as I understand) a mass redirect towards a specific direction on the player list (everybody targets 12 player slots up from their target person, for example).

... the color indicates that how? All it would indicate is

not hero aligned

unless you are also not hero aligned... The attribute killer thing doesn't indicate anything about alignment, either. Fire burns those of the forest. Ice freezes those of the water. Simple. It's a null indicator regarding alignment. The lovers thing is a heavily flavor based thing. Them being part of a scum group seems fine to me if the scum's rather powerful. /speculationensues

p-edit: ninja'd by a metric shitton of posts... e.e gonna read those and reply

[RayFrost]

I believe that the VC's accuracy does not indicate a lack of shift. Considering that the rolling attack was activated before most of those votes, we can't be sure about the location of the shift (or even eliminate some possibilities).

I got an invalid result upon targeting LLD. There's a shift. I can keep reusing my power until I hit a valid target.

I meant that it does not indicate a lack of shift towards the votes that were added after your actual rolling attack, hence my EBWOP.

[RayFrost]

Sorry I have been V/LA for so long; my parents were visiting all last week, and time slipped away from me. Trying to catch up has been…entertaining. This game reads like a giant brain in which the synapses don’t always connect…

Also, there is quite a bit of distracting noise about the neighbors and the shift. I’d like to get back into where D1 left off; neighbors will out themselves as time goes on, one way or the other; and if there is a focus on PLAY rather than role, we might actually get a good lynch today. Hopefully the shift thing will also resolve itself sooner than later, as it’s become a distraction as well.

Agreed.

RayFrost:

Has GIS’s flip changed your other reads in any way today? You were quite adamant about his being lynched, so have you reevaluated your positions about anyone else?

There's been some change in who I think is scum vs town through my neutral reads, but I didn't get any superamazingomfg reads out of it.

Reads:

Diddin/Zoneace:

Diddin was obv-scum while he was around, and Zone just hasn’t been here to improve that read.

Substrike:

Also hasn’t done much to change D1 reads of him.

More to come, but this is as far as I've gotten today.

Are these two your only scum reads, or do you have one or two others?

[RayFrost]

JABOC flipped town , why does that make it ok?

...

Just A Bit Off-Center [KOTAKE],

Ice Witch Lover Jailkeeper Water-Killer

, committed suicide N1

...

Are you

really

paying this little goddamned attention?

[RayFrost]

Looks like there's no shift activated on this game day.

[RayFrost]

It is possible for them to be related, but I doubt it. Just ignore it until you've got more information.

Anyway...

Vote: substrike

<--- scum

[RayFrost]

Chess, either explain yourself or DIAF. Your choice, but choose one. Now.

[RayFrost]

If you aren't willing to put in the effort for all of this, then replace out. We hardly need a noncontributor.

[RayFrost]

I have no interest in the shift. It was a mild note. The activation of the rolling attack came before BE's unvote and selfvote, meaning order of action would indicate that he'd be voteless, yet it clearly displays in the vote count that he has his vote.

Aside from that... I feel that jmj's argument against chess is valid regardless of my actual opinion of jmj. Chess has stated that he has a case but isn't actually providing one. Jmj and zwet = just a fluffposter in general. *shrug* I don't expect much.

To turn this around, why in the fifty six hells did you provide chess with a case that he can just simply sheeple? Seriously. You aren't even voting jmj. You are voting substrike. You have absolutely no reason to provide a case in chess' stead except to try and get chess a bye on the matter, as far as I can tell. You clearly aren't really pushing for a jmj lynch.

[RayFrost]

P.s.: I see no reason to out the neighbors. It's of null value for town if there is scum in the neighbors, since that confirms that they are infiltrated. If there is just one scum with multiple scumteams, it's an even worse idea and actually harms town. Please point out reasons why the neighbors should reveal themselves if substrike flips scum. By reasons I mean things that make it of actual use and benefit to the town to have the neighbors outted to everybody, including scum without previous information.

[RayFrost]

DTM: My interest in the shift is peripheral. I see little way for me to directly help (the self voting thing seems ridiculous), and I feel that trying to come up with ways would be a distraction, so I don't get involved. Gimme a direction, and I'll be more than heppy to get involved, kthx.

Dekes:

#1 Please read what I said again. I'm on chess about providing a case that he's promised repeatedly. I'm not bothering with the regular fluff posters because I feel there's more important things. Like lynching scum. The fluff posters are unlikely to do anything aside from posting fluff, and they are vigbait to me, not people that a lynch should be wasted on.

#2 I don't see a heavy involvement in the neighbor issue in comparison to the shift issue. Aside frm that, why would you prolong lynching someone you think is scum for such a flimsy reason in the first place?

#3 ... that's not what I said.

This could solve the other main topic here. I still think he's scum and if he is indeed, we'd have confirmation the neighborhood has been infiltrated and

the neighbors could come forward and out themselves

and we could have that out of the way, too.

I see no reason to out the neighbors.

It's of null value for town if there is scum in the neighbors, since that confirms that they are infiltrated. If there is just one scum with multiple scumteams, it's an even worse idea and actually harms town. Please point out reasons why the neighbors should reveal themselves if substrike flips scum.

Aside from that, it'd hardly be imbalanced if there were different power spreads, especially since the scum would not know that the other team lacks an informant, etc. Still, agreed that it's speculation.

[RayFrost]

I don't have any votes, beefster.

I honestly have come to the conclusion that votes actually take place before the rolling attack. If someone were to vote me (assuming no shift), I think they'd get KTFO even though the attack was, chronologically, performed first. Beefster, can you clarify whether this is accurate or not?

[RayFrost]

#1
But fluffposters can be scum as well. I would name you an ongoing game...but I can't. And it wasn't really fluff like some of Bunny's, Chrono's and Aikage's statements that look like they saysomething when they actually don't. But in jmj's case he's only either "I'm rereading" or "Where's your case on me?". So he deliberately stays away when no one's talking about him and pops up when he needs to.
Okay, in hindsight it may have been better if I had chess present his "case" first, true. But I had jmj on my radar for a while now and his last episode just was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

#2
Because I think Substrike is scum, too. And his death would give us more info than jmj's. I don't see that as a flimsy reason at all.

#1: I've seen fluffposters be scum and fluffposters be town. Fluffposting is a null tell at best, imo. Like I said before, though, vigbait and not lynchbait. They could be scum, but they aren't worth the lynch.

#2: That doesn't relate to my point. You brought up heavy focus on the neighbors as a reason to avoid going after jmj when you stated that you believe jmj is scum. The defense of "omg, heavy neighbor involvement man!" is flimsy when trying to explain away a non-vote. Your vote on substrike is fine, but it's not relevant to your initial defense. It's simply a new defense that does not explain the old one.

[RayFrost]

You're saying that the action will affect anyone who votes for the target for the rest of the day..?

I was thinking more along the lines of the possibility that it affects anybody up to next votecount. Might just be crazy just-woke-up ideas, though.

[RayFrost]

Wrong.

Finding scum is the most important thing.

[RayFrost]

Then go irrelevant.

[RayFrost]

Ythan has the right of it here.

We have no confirmation as to what happens from the frog's existence. We also have no confirmation as to who the frog creator is or what they meant to do with said frog. To assume that what exilon said is the truth about something that impacts him is kinda stupid.

[RayFrost]

What I want to know is why exilon hasn't copped anyone. Does he not want to confirm himself?

He hasn't exactly been online, has he? Wait a bit.

[RayFrost]

Exilon, target a mason other than LL. This information is useful if we ever manage to figure out the shift or if there isn't a shift. At this point, I don't see much of a chance that we can get shift information, and it's slowing this game to a crawl.

My personal advice? Lynch substrike today. If we are going to lynch a mason, then it should be nikanor, imo.

[RayFrost]

Deadline isn't near

[RayFrost]

Bunnylover are you saying you haven't been posting because you are being a worthless lurking scumbag?
Or are you just deliberately avoiding posting worthwhile information out of laziness?

[RayFrost]

Shift is either down ten or up fifteen.

[RayFrost]

Anyway... exilon, take your pick but try to aim for nikanor or substrike, will yah?

[RayFrost]

Shift is either down ten or up fifteen.

Wouldn't it be up fourteen and down 10?
The rolling attack makes me lose my powers and my vote for today correct?
I would go down 10, because I like the number 10 more then 14.
But I agree with the two choices, either Nikanor or Substrike to be invistigate.

I'm including the mod's spot (which is #0) in my calculations, considering that the mod-wagon was hit before.

chess, dekes is not scummy, imo.

Confirming that one of exilon / masongroup is scum makes the nikanor investigation worthwhile.

Also, this confirms that the shift varies. Yesterday, the shift was neither up fifteen nor down ten. I'm really starting to hate the whole shift business. Who thought it was a good idea?

[RayFrost]

Rule #!: Don't follow chess' advice. He doesn't think things through. Even if it was through the original playerlist, the shift would be different from yesterday. It'd still be down 10, but it'd now be up 19 rather than up 15. So yeah.

[RayFrost]

I'd prefer a target on one of the masons to confirm exilon's result. I feel that substrike is clearscum and should be lynched. Don't waste cop investigations on people that are going to be lynched. Check uncertain players (examples: one of the masons, ythan, vezok, zwet, ABR, bunny).

Also, exilon, if you've figured out that the shift is down ten for sure, then that means you hit the mods yesterday upon targeting LL. The mods are definitely part of the player list as per the fact kai's rolling attack the other day hit the mod wagon.

I don't feel that chess should use his power at this time.

[RayFrost]

For my own suspicions however: "Ruto" chose not to reveal themselves. In the case there does turn out to be a scum neighbour, probably a smart move... "Saria" has a discrepancy in unsealing target, when compared to the rest of the sages (and that issue has been discussed in QT). And substrike/"Rauru" is probably the scummiest of us all, in so far as play, thus my personal choice for Exilion to check Sub. and, should there be no shift, then myself in said case. ofc if the shift is up instead of down, it will end on mothrax/rayfrost.

Do you suspect Ruto for the no reveal, or do you feel that it is inherently a null point? Does the discrepancy lead to you suspecting Saria, or is it just a random oddity?

P-edit:

Yes, chrono, that means the mods are playing in this game... scummy bastards. The only issue is that the shift may be different during d1 than it is today, so I might be wrong.

[RayFrost]

The shift yesterday appears to be either 12 up or 16 down.

[RayFrost]

Aikage has one vote out of their total of 10 posts, which is a vote on mafuyu. Last I recall, though, aikage is voteless.

[RayFrost]

1) I think that Fate and his partner (forgot who that player was), had the power to form together into Twinrova and separate at will.
Since someone killed them while they were in their individual form, they didn't get the chance to use that power.
Or I thought of this
2) They each have an extra live, after been targeted by a kill and losing their life, they form together to form Twinrova. This would fix in with after getting hit they would form together. If this theory is true, the two night actions must have been used on it.
The second theory fits better with what you posted, but the first theory makes more sense. Sorry I can't come up with something more solid.

1) I don't like this theory. Two players sharing a single role makes very little sense. How would actions resolve? What happens when one is targeted for a kill when they are combined? Twinrova only has their powers, not some super growth from the combination, making the idea of a combined role iffy, especially as there'd be no incentive to do it when you can only perform one active action per night. Only one died in the "individual" forms, but they were lovers, so one suicided. In addition, twinrova would technically be dead here, as there is no twinrova role existing in the game any longer.

2) If this were true, that would require two deaths shown: one for the individual deaths and one for the twinrova deaths. The number of kills would make them dying twice ridiculous, imo. There's also the fact chrono hasn't been unsealed (Evidence: chrono still has access to the sage QT. I doubt he'd be dumb enough to lie about something that easy to find out), meaning twinrova is still alive.

If we are really going to go into this, there's a really simple explanation for it. There's still a twinrova alive or there is no twinrova role in this game. As the mods said they don't lie in role PMs, it can only be the first.

[RayFrost]

P.S.

Vote substrike

It's staying until I hear back from exilon.

[RayFrost]

I'd also like to point out that gohma isn't very innocent.

In fact, neither is barinade.

[RayFrost]

Kdub, the likelihood that seems a bit off for me. If scum never got "unsealed," they'd be easily revealed as scum later in the game. (unsealed is in parantheses to mean they might not get any new powers while still leaving the QT ability behind) That's a bit too broken unless their target roles don't exist.

[RayFrost]

Aside from that, gaem needs moar substrike lynch.

It also needs more posting and a lot of explanation from vezok. His posts just now really raise some alarms.

[RayFrost]

I agree with ythan here.

chess should be vigged, and he shouldn't use his ability at this time.

Oh! Don't vanilize aikage, he's a voteless person now. Imagine the damage he could do with a vote. Seriously.

[RayFrost]

Aikage should claim his full role. Then we know for sure, yes?

[RayFrost]

IIRC = If I recall correctly / If I remember correctly

So yeah.

Anyway, aikage's

only actual vote

through the entire game was on mafuyu. He has made no other votes.

[RayFrost]

Substrike isn't an issue. Substrike is today's lynch.

[RayFrost]

If there is a dayvig, they should kill substrike.

[RayFrost]

Because proper dayvig play is kill the lynch target so that town may choose to lynch the second choice (that or vig the second choice, either way).

Ches should not be vigged at this time, though aikage should be.

[RayFrost]

Claim or you will become today's lynch.

Understood?

[RayFrost]

Hey guys. What's new and what do you want from me?

What's new: everything you haven't read (pretty much the entire game).

What we want: some scumhunting and actually worthwhile posts (pretty much none of your posts).

[RayFrost]

DTM, I did have a brain fart. The shift's confirmed to be changing between days by virtue of the fact it is

impossible

for the shift to have been -10 on D1 (unless we are going into multiple shifts, and then that's just insanely bad modding and the mods should hang themselves).

The tl;dr version of this game:

shitton of fluff, after you've read the first five posts in an argument between two players (first five of each), you can ignore the rest, as they are redundant NOU screams.

nikanor / LL / cupcake are claimed masons (they aren't confirmed to be masons, but whatever)
exilon's a claimed day boss cop
aikage is a voteless townie
substrike is a claimed neighbor that happens to also be scum
substrike is the lynch or the day
chesskid and aikage are vig material

[RayFrost]

I already covered why the three childhood bosses are unlikely to all be town, kthx. Gohma AND Barinade were both life sucking creatures from the abyss. There's nothing exactly pro-hyrule about them.

[RayFrost]

Substrike's last post read very "RAEGRAEGIAMF[L]AILINGOMG" which, strangely enough, makes me feel like he's scummier. How odd.

[RayFrost]

Anyway, substrike's starting to read town to me, even if his reads aren't necessarily correct.

Moving along to next on the scumreads:

unvote, vote: BE

[RayFrost]

Want to know the problem with your counter? The reason you thought the childhood bosses would be town was

link was invading their territory and they were actually just innocent defenders of what they had

. I was pointing out that two of the three childhood bosses were entities that sucked the very life force of that which they were within, meaning they were not just innocent, territorial creatures.

Anyway, substrike's starting to read town to me, even if his reads aren't necessarily correct.

Moving along to next on the scumreads:

unvote, vote: BE

Substrike is the lynch today and you are looking likely for tomorrow.

lolk. I can actually provide a summary of the substrike wagon:

1. little to no content - beginning to change
2. extension of the above is lack of scumhunting - read #1
3. the snowball effect - not indicative of alignment

As substrike's providing #1-2, the only effect left is #3, which is the fact it's been slowly rolling to this point all day.

Here's how I see the places between BE and substrike:

substrike looks like he's getting his shit together, finally. I feel that the manner in which he is acting now is indicative of him having not been active as a general thing rather than a tell. Although I think it's poor play on his part, lynching based purely off of poor play would've had chess and aikage dead already. I haven't seen any contradictory play out of substrike, which differentiates him from GIS.

BE's postings have been sparser than substrike. The only real contribution from BE was his post from... was it page 40? Pretty much 90-100% are without reasoning, BE, when pressured, just goes "lolnub" "lolidiot" "readmyposts" or simply repeats what they've said. The multitude o the one liner's coming from BE are of the first two, especially when concerning things like... providing reasoning for votes. This goes beyond poor play, considering this is a hydra of someone I've got moderate respect for (BC) with some random person (cateraction).

Between the two, I have a stronger feeling that substrike is town when considering his new play than I do about BE. Feel free to provide a counter argument that manages to extend further than "ur wrong, u scum" at any time, ythan. I'm sure it'll be enlightening for us all.

[RayFrost]

Players please notice Ray's efforts to bus Substrike but then take the first opportunity to move to another wagon.

Players please notice Ythan's efforts to maintain the substrike lynch while taking the first opportunity to attack me, which happens to coincide with my attacking blooderection while ythan fails to actually present anything of worth to the thread that goes beyond flavor based argumentation for a while now.

[RayFrost]

Substrike, while you are here, why not expand upon your reasoning for finding myself and BE scummy? Who else do you find scummy? What are your thoughts about potential connections between your scumreads and other players?

[RayFrost]

I post at different times of day, and my mind shuts off and turns on. :/ I post as thoughts come to me, regardless of thinking them through. Chess should vanillize, aikage's vigbait. Frame of mind issue. Where is the self preservation subtext, btw? Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

[RayFrost]

Oooohhhh. Makes sense. I'm having strokes of stupidity intermixed with my smartness.

[RayFrost]

You aren't.

[RayFrost]

Lets lynch BE now.

[RayFrost]

Okay, so you weren't. Still doesn't matter, as I was giving the information t counter the belief that the childhood bosses were millers because link was an invader in the game.

Meh, I don't really see what you said as something I need to defend myself from. If I wanted to present a defense, I'd point out the fact that BE wasn't/isn't likely to be lynched during this game day, that substrike was/is still the most likely person to be lynched, and the fact I went almost as all in on the substrike lynch as I did on the GIS one.

What? I'm

vigbait

if the guy I'm

moving away from the lynch of

is town. Please explain how this makes any sense whatsoever, because I'm really not seeing any.

I didn't at the time because I couldn't figure it out, so I chose not to devote myself t the task. :/

How would you say that I've been manipulating people? I'm pretty sure that I've been rather up front about what I want (I hardly feel that being demanding's a bad thing). As to telling you to vote for the person I felt was scum... why woudn't I do this? I don't see myself as calling the shots here, care to give examples past chess (I say past chess because chess would've said "ok" to pretty much anybody saying yes or no)? I've moved towards BE, but the votes are still on substrike, and I'm being called scummy for my change (without people actually pointing out how my logic is flawed). I don't really see this as being the guy calling the shots.

[RayFrost]

Hey LL, idle curiosity...

why haven't you made any commentary regarding me? I'm pretty sure that you have something to say, so why aren't you saying it?

P-edit:

So being direct and up front is manipulative. Right.

Only the last ten posts or so? I thought I'd been doing it for the majority of my posts in this game, but I guess I thought wrong.

[RayFrost]

I don't think

I

would have all that much to say about you RayFrost?

If you would like, can ISO you, and find some thing to say about you?

I thought you'd have something to say about me, especially considering recent events. I feel that having as many people weigh in on the recent posting (which seems to mostly comprise of me) is beneficial.

btw, I stated here that BE was my second highest scum read.

[RayFrost]

What about recent posting should people weigh in on. I'm sure you mean it and that you must have a specific idea in mind. Or am I mistaken?

I do have a specific idea in mind. Getting people to weigh in on what people have said recently, such as AKR's, beefster's, and our posts is beneficial. Stances and reasoning is always a plus. Outside of that, there's something not clicking in my mind that is bothering me, and I'm hoping that seeing others' thoughts will help with the train of thought.

[RayFrost]

I took it as a specific request, which is why I went to verify something...

Well, considering that it was about recent posting, it'd be your opinion of BE / my case on them.

[RayFrost]

Even more specifically, I wanted to know who you find scummy at this time + why. I feel that recent pages are a tad... lacking in people sharing their reads, and I have found myself thinking ":goodposting:" when I read your posts. What did you want to verify, by the way?

[RayFrost]

I don't quite get what you are getting at with that.

[RayFrost]

I'm going to show what happened that led to my substrike unvote and then change to my #2 scumread:

HOLY SHIT, BE'S WAGON IS SO HUGE, I SHOULD TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE OVER AND NOT LYNCH MAH SCUMBUDDY WHO HAS A SMALLER CHANCE OF BEING LYNCHED TODAY ANYWAY BECAUSE I AM SO INFLUENTIAL THAT I CAN MAKE EVERYBODY VOTE BE WITH ME BY BEING DOMINATING AND CONTROLLING AND MANIPULATIVE.

I got a read change, so I switched my vote. I hardly see how going for someone less likely to be lynched is particularly opportunistic.

[RayFrost]

Also, on the matter of dedication... Something that I've figured out is that confidence is more likely to get people to look at what you are saying than anything else. I you aren't confident, people are more liable to ignore you.

By the by... let's do a field test, shall we?

Everybody on the Substrike wagon:

Please present a case as to why substrike should be lynched over [your next highest scumread here]. Aso provide reasons as to why your next highest scumread is your next highest scumread, just to be a bit more complete on the matter.

[RayFrost]

While we are having this little conversation, care to present your reasons for wanting to lynch BE? I'm curious, as your vote doesn't really have much backing it.

[RayFrost]

There actually is something bugging me, the field test directly relates to it.

[RayFrost]

... I had forgotten you were in the game, ABR.

Considering that pressure for substrike's been on for the entire day, I don't see much correlation between pressure and posting from him.

[RayFrost]

unvote
vote BE

I think he is scum.

Great. Now explain why.

[RayFrost]

Beefster: Why would there be a difference in how my continuous playstyle sticks out between different situations rather than what's actually being said? You seem to be focusing

way

too much on how I am presenting things rather than what's actually being presented. (Note: it's good to look at how, but ignoring the content of the how is bad)
> Lurking's a rather common thing, so poor point.
> suggesting the idea of jester but maintaining the vote seems null to me. stupid speculation regardless of alignment

@ Nameloc - I'll just say that the entire reason for my switch is not encompassed by substrike's post. It's just a part of why. Another part is that I reread BE. BE is scum in a more likely fashion than substrike.

[RayFrost]

Okay, this is disturbing.

To tally up the people I don't like on each wagon, here yah go:

ABR - virtual noncontributor in any way, lurking, has had his vote parked for pretty much the entire day, overalluseless. Vigbait, but not lynch worthy.

vezok - has shown a blatant noncontributing stance towards playing and is merely playing follow the town without actually doing anything. Same as above

bunnylover - Of all the players in this game, I'd be most likely to believe that bunny is a scumbudy of sub (assuming sub-scum) due to some blatant connections. As I noted in my first reread post, sub hadn't come in for a while but defends bunylover when he does. Bunnylover has declared a lack of support for lynching substrike and votes on the alternative wagon as soon as possible while coattailing his reasons off of somebody else. Actually... probscum, should be lynched or vig'd soon.

Top three that ping me at the moment, it's in reverse order, though.

[RayFrost]

Beefster interested in lynching lynchers instead of scum hmmmmmmmmm

We have no evidence that BE is a lyncher.

[RayFrost]

One can speculate something while believing something else is more likely. I read beefster's post as "this is possible, but I think he's more likely to be scum"

[RayFrost]

Ythan post #1: :goodposting:

Ythan post #2: The BE wagon had ~5 votes before I got onto it, so not really. Only been three votes on him since, IIRC. (only bunny's vote is extremely bothersome for me)

Ythan post #3: True. I still don't find his post scummy.

[RayFrost]

Ythan post #3: True. I still don't find his post scummy.

If your reasoning for not finding it scummy falls through then why not?

Clarification: I can see no scum motivation for beefster to mention the possibility that the person he is voting is a lyncher.

As for the shift, it's been confirmed as a changing one, it was -10 today, it was -16/-15 (don't remember which atm) yesterday.

[RayFrost]

And I already explained it. It's a changing shift, but it is currently -10. We have no information about whether it has an impact on night actions or if the shift changes during the night. It'd be super pro-town for the shift to claim, but they clearly aren't town and have little intention of acting like it.

[RayFrost]

... what? How is it covering my bases to state my opinion on whoever the shift is?

[RayFrost]

Maybe you should read the whole sentence and you won't need to ask.

I did read the whole sentence. I don't see how I'd be giving myself a pass there, and I hardly see how that's an issue when I'd be giving myself a pass to vote someone I think is scum.

[RayFrost]

Hey LL, when are you going to give those posts you promised us?

[RayFrost]

Kdub, the wagon on BE is no more easy than the wagon on substrike, from what I have seen. Substrike's wagon was easier until the switch happened. I say this because BE and substrike's quality of play is not greatly divergent (quantity wise, substrike's vastly better, but eh), so I feel that the wagon's don't have any influene based upon the strength of the players. Do you disagree with the case(s) put forth for BE?

By the by, you hiding behind the excuse of "he's not here, so I'm not committing to an actual read on him!" (alternative translation: "you present good points, but the fact that the wagon developed without a reply nullifies it and makes me uncertain!" but that's about the same thing) is noted.

I would also like to say that jester speculation is more a badplay tell than a scum/town tell. Is that really your only reason for voting substrike (Aside from the valid BEvote point, since one valid point's hardly equitable to the points you admitted as valid against BE, emphasis on the plural there)?

[RayFrost]

Unvote

Don't want any "accidental" hammers.

Mods: Requesting deadline extension in light of the level of prodding and replacement needed within the past few days.

[RayFrost]

Ray:
I disagree that the wagon on Substrike has been "easier" when I go and look at the votes on both wagons. I pointed out specific votes on BE that I felt were weak or poorly justified, and I don't feel there are as many on Substrike. Do you disagree with my assessment of those votes? As for the case on BE itself, the main points against him are his buddying with Fate and his LL vote. His LL vote came right after Exilon claimed a guilty on her, so to say that BE was tunneling on her, as some have claimed, doesn't tell the whole story. BE certainly was not the only player skeptical of the mason claim at the time. Buddying with Fate, yeah that's a valid point, but given the quality (or lack thereof) of the votes on his wagon, I suspect scum might be taking apparent connections between their dead partner and others not in their faction and pushing it. I'll go on record as saying that I had a town read on Fate yesterday as well. I was wrong, but if I had boldly declared Fate to be town yesterday, I'm pretty sure his scum partners would have taken the opportunity to jump on me as well. Bottom line is, there are some reasonable points against BE, but the way his wagon has formed makes me uneasy and reeks of scum pushing an "easy" lynch.

For bad votes on the substrike wagon, look at ABR, chesskid3, and dekes.

You clearly didn't read my case on BE. The votes you pointed out (save beefster) were valid assessments, imo (BE wagon votes, I mean). Also, the wagon on BE existed far before now. There's been ~5-6 new votes on it since I switched to it, and the wagon had the other half before. That makes three bad votes on each side, so the wagon's are just as easy based on that criteria.

What

is

the "way his wagon has formed" anyway? You don't seem to be specific in explaining that.

[RayFrost]

I'm unvoting because of L-1. I'll be

online

awake for another 12 hours, so I'll revote when I go to sleep. I just don't want anybody to not be reading the recent posts and go "BE is scum! vote: BE" and hammer ''without realizing it.''

[RayFrost]

I'm going to sleep. Let's all rest now.

RayFrost's Blazing Vote: BloodErection

[RayFrost]

I was too town to live. FFFFF.

[RayFrost]

Also FFFFF at mod-super-hammer.

[RayFrost]

I killed you RayFrost. I used an ability to kill aquatic creatures on you and got lucky.

But... but... </3 Couldn't I just live for one more day? I hardly got to play.

[RayFrost]

oh
WORST MASONRY EVER
that is all

I don't put much stock in your opinion Chess...

It's ok, I put even less stock in your masonry

I put no stock in your ability to play, let alone your opinion.

That said, don't want a hate fest. Just no bashing seems good here. Go your separate ways, young padawans.