Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[jenniwren]

Darn, I missed RVS.

Catching Up/Weighing In

JaBOC—covered for the moment; awaiting new material to parse and evaluate. Comment about needing to calm down is either extremely frustrated townie or really scumtastic. When he comes back out to play again, we'll see.

Zwet—Castlevania and Chess—Lost S1. Those are my past experiences with Zwet and Chess. Not seeing much different in either one here so far. Both of you.

Things of Note

Lady LD does not vote JaBOC, but her comment to Mafuyu (post 103) seems to be encouraging the BW on JaBOC though she has avoided joining it herself.

Diddin comes in during the middle of the JaBOC discussion, repeats what’s already been said about JaBOC, votes for JaBOC, then makes a crack about Chesskid not posting content. Hm. Diddin hops on a JaBOC BW with his vote, and then hops on a “Boo CK” wagon as well. Note: he calls CK out for not posting content when CK calls the JaBOC wagon scummy. Possible deflection? Not really enough information to call it yet.

Mothrax also comes in during the middle of the JaBOC discussion and votes without contributing new and exciting ideas.

Vote: Lady LD

I think joining a discussion midstream and hopping on the biggest BW while not adding new insight (Diddin and Mothrax) is questionable, but it’s still very early in the game and there’s not really much new insight to add since JaBOC has put himself in timeout. However, NOT joining the bandwagon and encouraging others to consider it is scummy.

[jenniwren]

Hello!

[jenniwren]

Catching up...will post in a bit.

[jenniwren]

I'm working on my catch-up post, but watching the thread grow while I'm doing it. The page Ythan just linnked for verdant has a link (the second one, via the Golden Goddess entry). If you follow that link and scroll down, you get this information.

"As the Goddess of Wisdom, Nayru is associated with law and order. She is believed to be the Goddess of Time referred to in Majora's Mask due to her role in setting the realm in order and her association with the Oracle representing Time.

Through her oracle, Nayru is also associated with the flow of ages, string instruments, and singing. Nayru seems to be represented by water, ice, or love, as exemplified in the magic spell Nayru's Love, and the Great Fairy of Ice, holder of the Water Element, who resembles Nayru's Oracle and Goddess Statue.

The Light Spirit which is named after her, Lanayru, has the appearance of a serpent, and the unique feature of its province is the deep Lake Hylia. Nayru shares her symbol with the Tune of Ages."

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Golden_Goddesses

[jenniwren]

Working on it...

[jenniwren]

Okay…I finally caught up. (And have five pages of typed notes to prove it. I agree with Zwet. I hate you all. This week was already busy enough as it was.) Also, I am separating this post into smaller posts, as the original response was quite unmanageable and BC might kill me for it. This first part is to try to deescalate the current situation as well as to discourage repeats of it. And I had to put my teacher hat on to do this, so GG EVERYONE INVOLVED.

1) Fate is right. There has been too much debate about semantics and flavor.

Let me explain this from an outside perspective.

You’re having two separate debates.

I am completely oversimplifying each discussion here, but I think I’m being explicit enough that it shouldn’t be a problem for you to follow.

From my perspective, for LLD, the debate centers around the interpretation of the words “aquatic” and “verdant” and their respective uses in the game; for Ythan the debate centers around the legitimacy of Cupcake’s claim.
a. Post 1027 demonstrates that LLD and Ythan are on two separate wavelengths. LLD is trying to prove that the descriptor “aquatic” could be legitimately applied to Nayru; Ythan is trying to prove that Cupcake cobbled together a claim. These are two separate arguments.
b. In 1026, LLD says it’s disputable that Cupcake is really Nayru. She says it’s NOT disputable that Nayru is aquatic.
Again…two separate arguments going on here. I don’t think LLD is trying to vouch for Cupcake as much as she’s trying to prove that there might be some legitimacy to the claim and that it shouldn’t be rejected outright.

You two aren’t seeing the other’s perspective and don’t seem to realize that you’re not just on different pages—you’re in different books altogether.

This debate devolved into schoolyard taunts and both Ythan and LLD stopped communicating fairly quickly. Hint: If you want people to listen to you and understand you, calling them “fool,” “moron,” bumbling oaf,” etc. and saying people should be raped is not going to help you achieve your goal. That sort of language puts people on the defensive and makes communication extremely complicated, if not impossible. It's not fun to be attacked so relentlessly and so personally, and resorting to such behavior makes you a bully. Ythan, if you don't want to be called a bully, stop acting like one. LLD, if you want people to take you seriously, stick to the facts and avoid AtE. (BTW, I don't see any AtE in this discussion as a scumtell because it was unnecessarily provoked, just like it was with CK.)

Because of the escalated and hostile nature of this debate, it might be a good thing for Ythan and LLD to actually step back and look at what the other is saying and try to formulate a logical and succinct response to the other’s argument. If they are both town, they shouldn’t have a problem with this, as it is in the town’s best interests to communicate with other town and not make it harder to actually scumhunt.

[jenniwren]

Okay...just a little more for

now

.

2) I agree with LLD that someone having the claim “Aquatic Goddess” is possible. Whether or not Cupcake actually has that claim is debatable. Also, just because it's possible, doesn't mean it IS in the game.

The reason I agree with LLD is because “aquatic” is an adjective describing everything that falls under the purview of the noun “water,” not just water itself. Deities tend to be attached to particular elements/races/etc. in any culture, real or fictional (and Nayru is associated with water/ice/Zoras/etc.—I posted that block of text last night).

Prefacing the word “goddess” with a descriptor like “aquatic” actually makes sense to me, as does the use of the word “verdant” to describe an earth goddess. (“Verdant” means “green with vegetation”; it is absolutely logical that it

could

be a descriptor of races/goddesses/ whatever. Also, Zwet’s flavor says “non-verdant races,” which heavily implies that some races

will

be “verdant whatever,” and logic tells me that those races will be associated with geographical locations such as forests that have an abundance of green vegetation.)

3) Cupcake, meanwhile, has been oddly and uncharacteristically silent of late. It would be nice to hear from one, if not both, of the heads. They’re letting LLD defend them, which is only exacerbating the problems.

4) The scum are loving the confusion wrought by 50 pages in five days. Can we not do that again? I promise to try not to write anymore WoTs if we can avoid yet another explosion of "nyah-nyah"/"I rule and you drool" posts.

unvote

Until I get back.

[jenniwren]

Ythan, if you don't want to be called a bully

I don't recall saying that.

I don't think you said it in those words, but in your ISO 253 it seemed like you were bothered that LLD was calling you a bully.

Prefacing the word “goddess” with a descriptor like “aquatic” actually makes sense to me, as does the use of the word “verdant” to describe an earth goddess. (“Verdant” means “green with vegetation”; it is absolutely logical that it

could

be a descriptor of races/goddesses/ whatever. Also, Zwet’s flavor says “non-verdant races,” which heavily implies that some races

will

be “verdant whatever,” and logic tells me that those races will be associated with geographical locations such as forests that have an abundance of green vegetation.)

Except the only place we've seen it is specifically in reference to Barinade. You, like anyone else, needs to explain why non-foresty would be used to describe a giant jellyfish inside a whale's belly.

Zwet's claim says that he is NON-VERDANT. I am assuming that his being called NON-VERDANT would mean that some people are called VERDANT. Because of his abilities, the only people who can safely target him are VERDANT races. The mods must have had a reason for specifically labeling him NON-VERDANT and labeling others VERDANT; i.e., his ability that says only VERDANT races can attack him and not die automatically. There must be an important reason for their distinction.

You are a Miller Reflexive Non-Verdant CPR Doctor. You have the following special abilities: <snip>
Bioelectrogenesis - If you are targeted by an ability, you will automatically unleash an electric barrage upon your targeter (the ability still goes through). Unless that person is from a verdant race or was targeted by a kill during the same phase, he will die at the end of the phase.

The scum are loving the confusion wrought by 50 pages in five days. Can we not do that again? I promise to try not to write anymore WoTs if we can avoid yet another explosion of "nyah-nyah"/"I rule and you drool" posts.

Except that we've been attacking obvscum the whole time so I doubt they're enjoying it too much. Or you're assuming that they're town and there's something wrong with you.

I'm not assuming anything about anyone; I'm trying to read the thread and examine the evidence. Some people aren't reading or are claiming to not be reading because of the unwieldiness of this thread; this means they may miss important information and evidence. Reading: Pro-town. Not reading: Anti-town. Clogging up the thread with useless insults so that people don't have the time or energy to sort through them to find real evidence: ANTI-TOWN.

Could you two summarize your cases against each other and then respond to each other with a point-by-point rather than this, again? Or SOMETHING else besides what you're doing?

[jenniwren]

Your link showed the word "verdant" used to describe the flourishing geography of Hyrule in the Zelda game. Obviously the words "verdant" and non-verdant" are not distinctions in the actual video game, but Dram and Reck wrote a PM to Zwet specifically describing him as Non-Verdant and told him that people who are of verdant races will not die specifically because they target him, meaning his abilities do not work on people that Dram and Reck have labeled Verdant.

They

chose to make this distinction for

their

game, even though it isn't a specific distinction in the

actual

Zelda game. The fact that they specifically labeled him as Non-Verdant and told him that Verdant people were naturally immune to his abilities implies that there are verdant people/races/characters or whatever in THIS game.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you're asking for.

Also, I read the thread, and I use ISOs, but this back-and-forth in which you guys repeat yourselves and insult each other and make useless comments is not helping anything. And seriously, the name-calling and disparaging comments about people is really uncalled for. You don't have to keep calling her a fool and saying things like she's irrelevant to prove your point. Just say what you have to say and be done with it.

[jenniwren]

Other than that, I'm not sure what you're asking for.

Barinade has no connection to the forest and it clearly is referring to non-monsters when by verdant.

Right...he isn't the verdant one...but verdant races are immune to his ability. No one said Barinade was verdant or connected to the forest in any way. The pm says "NON-VERDANT." That means "not verdant." When has anyone said that Barinade is verdant?

[jenniwren]

It explicitly refers to him as non-verdant when he has no connection to the forest, either positive OR NEGATIVE. There is no reason, at all, to believe that it refers to the Kokiri.

It is not a huge leap in logic to associate verdant with Kokiri. I know you are associating it with all prosperous humanoid races, but if you are town then you only have your PM and the PMs quoted in thread to work from, which means you may not have all of the information needed to make this call. The only way for you to get absolute proof one way or the other is if everyone race claims, which won't happen.

A)This is the closest you come to explaining your argument about this is here:

Verdant refers to Kokiri. Aquatic refers to Zora. I'm waiting on something to do with fire, but that would refer to Gorons.

Trying to attach elements in order to support Cupcake's botched claim.

B)

Pretty much. We have only seen Barinade described as non-verdant. Why would the boss from Jabu Jabu's belly be described as non-Kokiri? It wouldn't and she's full of shit.

Kokiri is a noun; verdant is an adjective meaning green and flourishing with vegetation. Zwet isn't described as non-Kokiri, but non-verdant, meaning he isn't associated with green/flourishing/etc. If the mods made some people verdant and gave them immunity to certain powers, then specifying them as being verdant or non-verdant would be important. You're trying to outguess the mods here.

If I've missed a point you're making, please fill me in, because I've gone over your ISO a few times and this is what I'm getting (well, and the summary I provided Friday morning). I can see that this all connects in your head, but it's not coming across to me the way that you may think it is, and I don't want to misunderstand.

[jenniwren]

I've had a really busy week; reading from where I left off now.

[jenniwren]

1) Because of the level of emotional involvement in the LLD/Ythan debate, I think it is best to table it and give any investigative roles the opportunity to check them both out before anything else happens with either of them.

2) Diddin/ZoneAce is still incredibly scummy. While Diddin was here, he only joined convenient wagons and parroted arguments. ZoneAce hasn't done much of anything, either. However, not sure I agree with Nik that his lynch would be the best for D1 as it won't yield much information as the only statement from that slot that might have any analyzable substance in it is this.

Second. I don't like ythan, especially recently. Page 38 and the stuff immediately preceding it make me really uncomfortable. The exchange with Nikanor doesn't feel right. I'm still working on catching up on everything but that immediately jumped out at me.

If Diddin flips scum, he and Ythan aren't scum together as this reads like he's going for an easy target here rather than a bus; that he specifically focuses on the exchange with Nik in this post despite the massive amounts of other things going on with Ythan could mean that he is either buddying townNik or chainsawing scumNik.

Nik: why is ZoneAce the best wagon of the day and not Substrike or GIS?

[jenniwren]

The one person I have the most confident read on will not be the lynch today (Zoneace), but I think the cases on Gandalf and Substrike are both strong. I'm choosing to

Vote: Gandalf

. The many contradictions in his play are impossible to ignore, hydra or not.

[jenniwren]

Sorry I have been V/LA for so long; my parents were visiting all last week, and time slipped away from me. Trying to catch up has been…entertaining. This game reads like a giant brain in which the synapses don’t always connect…

Also, there is quite a bit of distracting noise about the neighbors and the shift. I’d like to get back into where D1 left off; neighbors will out themselves as time goes on, one way or the other; and if there is a focus on PLAY rather than role, we might actually get a good lynch today. Hopefully the shift thing will also resolve itself sooner than later, as it’s become a distraction as well.

Questions

(I have several; this is me trying to fill in the gaps of my thought processes.)

Mothrax:

What is your case on BE that you revisit it today with a vote (I realize you have unvoted and voted for yourself for the sake of the shift speculation.)? Is he still your top suspect, and why?

RayFrost:

Has GIS’s flip changed your other reads in any way today? You were quite adamant about his being lynched, so have you reevaluated your positions about anyone else?

Ythan:

Same question. Yesterday you were pretty adamant about lynching LLD or LC; since they are part of an alignment-confirmed masonry (and you’ve even agreed with Nik once, which nearly caused me to choke), what are your reads today?

Hindu:

Still focusing on Substrike…are there any others who have pinged your radar?

KDub:

You defend ZoneAce in ISO 14; what do you think of Diddin’s play?

Reads:

Diddin/Zoneace:

Diddin was obv-scum while he was around, and Zone just hasn’t been here to improve that read.

Substrike:

Also hasn’t done much to change D1 reads of him.

More to come, but this is as far as I've gotten today.

Vote: jenniwren

[jenniwren]

Are these two your only scum reads, or do you have one or two others?

No, I have others, but I am waiting for my questions to be answered first.

[jenniwren]

Sorry about being away again.

Mothrax: I asked you a question a while back and am just wondering if you could answer it in your catch-up post.

I'm also working on a catch-up post.