Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Seacore]

Howdy

I played in SA 0, yes, you heard right. Although it was a long time ago on a different site. Also, I started playing SA 2 but replaced out due to the 'fiasco'.

Heard noise, did not ward

I'm not sure we should be claiming actions other than ward.

I like the case on furcolow, I must have missed the case on Fate, so I'll revisit.

[Seacore]

Could people please read the rules before they post. Wingless and Fate, I'm looking in your directions.

[Seacore]

Also, Anybody who took cower night 0 (for whatever reason) needs to claim so immediately.

[Seacore]

Because, I don't believe in your foolproof meta.

[Seacore]

Is there a way to filter Benmage and Fate out from all the other posts?

In other news, anybody who things I'm cult with Fate just because I disbelieve Benmage has perfect meta is a moron.

Thirdly, I want people to admit they cowered (probably due to not sending in an action) so they can't claim it later.
There are only three actions an Investigator can have taken to earn an Insanity Point.
1) Cower,
2) Launder
3) Stalk.

Nobody should have laundered.
Therefore anybody who does not admit they cowered, and is revealed to have got an insanity point on Night 0 must have stalked.
This is important information.

[Seacore]

The fact that you think I'm scum with Fate only enhances my read on you.
That read being that you are an idiot.

Personally, I'm in favour of a Benmage lynch. He's admitted to stalking Night 0. Even if he kills Fate and declares it a "vig kill for town" he's just two nights away from becoming a murderer.
There's no town reason to stalk Night 0, as Fate has said, he's doing it for personal reasons.

Also, Benmage, what insanity did you take? If you are indeed protown, we should be allowed to know so we can track it

[Seacore]

Also, Benmage, I asked who cowered, because I expect those people to tell the truth, over people who are trying to win the murderer win condition.

[Seacore]

Following this, barely, on my phone. I like vas's idea of an approved insanity list

[Seacore]

I feel that there's a suggestion of guilt around Benmage, I don't think he's necessarily Cult, but remember, being an Investigator does not make you "Town".

Ben's suggestion that InvestiFate would have targetted him for a night action but CultiFate would not have is a serious logical gap. In the 438 posts the two of them have made, has this been discussed?
Ben's attack on me for saying "I think your meta is stupid", he declares that I am definitely scum, this smacks of not caring who he paints as scum. Note, he didn't just say I was acting scummy, he declared me definitely scum.
Stalk Night 0 is not a town action. He wants us to trust that he won't kill again, and that he was taking an insanity point to murder another player before any tells on that player could be revealed and that that was a town action.

Personally, I think Benmage is an investigator who wants to go Murderer. At the very least he's an investigator, planning on staying an investigator, but is willing to spend two night actions on doing something that has a 75% chance of being anti-town.

[Seacore]

Ben's suggestion that InvestiFate would have targetted him for a night action but CultiFate would not have is a serious logical gap. In the 438 posts the two of them have made, has this been discussed?

Yep, way back in post 81:

She would've if she was investigator. Fate has no allegiance to PTW. Fate would gladly lynch me or kill me (as town) if I was modconfirmed as town. Thats how awesome (sarcasm) she is. She probably did something else the cult wanted from her.

This is where you lose me. Why would Fate have no allegiance to PTW

as town

, but not as cult? Even if the cult refused to participate in the ritual on you, Fate could still just go Craft Fetish > Pass Fetish every two turns if she's as spiteful as you say.

So, Benmage, can you please respond to this?
Why does InvestiFate not PTW but CultiFate does PTW?

[Seacore]

15 pages in 12 hours. Hrm, that'll teach me to be slow to pick up my PM.

Also: Hi everyone, didn't hear any noise, are we mass-claiming night actions at this point?

Hey Tom! I'm excited about playing with you here!

We are claiming if we warded somebody, and if we cowered (default no-action) or if we crafted a fetish.

[Seacore]

3. Furcolow claimed targeted Drippereth in thread BECAUSE Drippereth posted as such in the scum QT.

Drippereth does not post in QTs as Drippereth, but rather as their separate heads. Of course, that doesn't mean that Both Elli and Drip posted and Furcolow hurriedly made an assumption.

My reference for this is the Clash of Kings mafia game that Faraday and I ran. Mina was in that QT, so both heads of Lost Butterfly should be able to back me up on that.

[Seacore]

We are claiming if we warded somebody, and if we cowered (default no-action) or if we crafted a fetish.

Oh good, because I crafted a... Wait a minute, you cunning and handsome devil, you almost had me there! No insanities here, officer.

Can't blame me for trying

[Seacore]

I have town Meta fate not PTw. You can drink all the wine about how shell act as scum. I suggested she's following the cult unit because she can't solo kill me

Either way, you've behaved incredibly anti-town and, assuming nobody digs themselves in deeper, I'd be happy to see you hang for it.

[Seacore]

Or an emotional unhappy player.

Lol, says the person who behaved like a 5 year old while fighting with Fate.

You say you "couldn't be bleeding more town"

Let's assume this is true (and that you mean investigator). This hasn't been proven, but let's say you're not cult.

We then need to assume that you wouldn't go Murderer because it's difficult. I agree that it's difficult to get away with three kills, but you've concocted a story for us to "allow you" your first kill. That makes it easier to win


So, even with the two assumptions, a) that you're not cult and b) that you wouldn't go murderer, we still have you doing something which is so incredibly anti-town. You rarely get a better reason to lynch somebody day 1.

Why am I screaming scum? Because I disagree with you? Because I dislike how anti-town you've been?

[Seacore]

But it does not confirm you. You murdering Fate will confirm you as not-cult, this does not confirm you as somebody who is seeking the Investigator win condition.

I'm not tunneling, I'm addressing severe anti-town behaviour, and as you can see hito, the matter is not over, Benmage is still seeking to murder somebody for anti-town reasons.

[Seacore]

===============================================================

4) Seacore

I haven't been enamoured of the Seacore wagon (having seen him as bumbling town in AGoT Mafia). That said...

I like the case on furcolow, I must have missed the case on Fate, so I'll revisit.

Um...why do you like the case on him?

You don't follow up on the Furcolow case once after this. It looks like easy wagoning.

Either way, you've behaved incredibly anti-town and, assuming nobody digs themselves in deeper, I'd be happy to see you hang for it.

Please elaborate on this.

Do you realize that the antitown action Benmage ostensibly committed--stalking Fate--could have only happened IF BENMAGE IS TOWN?

Do you think Benmage is scum or just a townie playing badly? What do you think his scum motivation is for playing this way?

Thank you

Mina

Lost Butterfly

Okay, it's true, I didn't follow up on the Furcolow thing, but I also didn't vote for him. Yeah, that doesn't count for too much, but I was out all day in between the early posts and the late ones. At the time, it seemed he'd been caught in a lie. Now that seems unlikely. I was also distracted by the Fate/Benmage lovers tiff.

Also, when I did my reread (true, it was a skim) I noticed somebody waiting for a mod clarification on Fur, and I was kinda waiting for that.

On the other matter, you are confusing Town with Investigator. These two things are not the same.
"Town" = Investigators who stay true to their win condition and do not seek to become murderers.
I declare that, in the case that Benmage is telling the truth about his stalk, then he is an investigator, but he is not town.
In the event that he is "Town", he's a crap one who is willing to commit anti-town acts.

It is the job of "Town" to not just kill cultists, but to also kill murderers. In this latter group I would also include investigators who seem to want to become murderers.

I'd like to emphasise that last point because a lot of people seem to have missed it.

Investigator does not equal "Town" in the usual sense.
"Town" + "Wannabe murderers" = Investigators

[Seacore]

I'm satisfied that Furcolow has been caught

Vote Furcolow

[Seacore]

Find a chill pill and take it,

Then empty the rest of the bottle into your mouth.

[Seacore]

thank you for admitting I'm town.

I just modded a game with Faraday that Mina played. So yes, I'm a little chummy with them. The Mina head of Lost Butterfly raised some concerns about things I've said, I was responding both to her concerns and to her confusion between "Investigator" (which is a role) and "Town" (which is a choice of alignment).

[Seacore]

I warded El Goosuki

@Moi: I didn't send a ward in on El Goosuki, I sent one in on a player that must have /outted, but Percy, realizing I wanted to ward, did it on the next person alphabetically.

I sent in Ward: Drippereth, for the record

I sent in Ward: Drippereth, for the record

Why? He wasn't listed on the player list either in this thread or the in the Queue thread.

Are you telling me when choosing your actions you didn't bother to actually look at the player list? This doesn't bolster your argument that you are strong as Town.

@MOD - Your rules state that if no action is sent in by the N0 deadline the player in question will Cower. Does this apply to invalid actions (ie sending a Ward in on a player not in the game)?

I saw them make a hydra account
I thought they had signed up. DGB and Ellibereth are both good players, and together.... if they're town, I wanted them alive.

Assuming Percy does not clarify that he changed your target, these posts suggest heavily that you have lied about who you targeted.

[Seacore]

wow, this is really similar to adel/hayker and last game..... totally new cycle. Hopefully I don't have to be replaced
Lost Butterfly, quit trolling, please. It is not becoming of you.

I also like how you used the word "us". You'll just ACT like you were talking about your hydra, but I know what you meant. You meant your scum-cult-team. Who is on it besides Seacore/Baby Spice? Hmm?

Wow, just wow. I'm no longer responding until either Percy clears you or other players bring something new to the discussion. But seriously, wow. Take a moment and, just to yourself, read over everything you've posted. Do you see how we're all viewing you? The image of a rabid frothing lunatic is coming to my mind.

Don't bother responding, I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

[Seacore]

I'm trying to catch up and I'm basically not reading anything Fate or Benmage say until they start scumhunting, so, just saying if I miss something from either of them that is why.

Actually given what we know about the Craft Fetish mechanic based on the number of noises that are heard we can make a rough approximation of the number of Stalks that happened. So while not scum-hunting it might be worth some discussion of suspects that Town should look direct their Night actions.

See my problem with this is that it implies some knowledge of the

cult's numbers

, otherwise you'd have no idea how many of the noises are from Fetishes or Stalks. Please explain because I must be missing something.

Seven players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a

Cultist

.

Your fellow Cultists are

Shathak

,

Hastur

,

Iod

,

Rhogog

,

Nug

and

Yeb

.

You may speak with your fellow

Cultists

at any time in

The Sanctum

.

It is now

Night 0

. The following

Night Actions

are available to you:

Cower
Launder
Search:

Forensic Tools

Search:

Resuscitation Kit

Search:

Occult Books

Ward
Craft Fetish

You are not bloody.

Your

Insanity Count

is

0

.

You have until

5:00pm, Wednesday October 20th default site time

to submit your action to me, or you will default to the action

Cower

.

The gamethread can be found

here

.

Good luck.

[Seacore]

@Seacore, Butterfly: Could you please sum up why Fur's mix up with the ward is scummy?

Percy posted an hypothetical clarification, saying that if he received an unclear night action, he would request clarification.

It is the opinion of myself, and I think others, that Fur submitting a ward action of a player that was not in the game would warrant a clarification email. At the very least, you'd think that Percy would send back "Drippereth isn't playing, would you be satisfied with the El Goosuki hydra, as it has both DGB and Elliberth in it"

It is Furc's defence that Percy automatically upgraded "Drippereth" to "El Goosuki" without confirmation.

I find this incredibly unlikely.

Therefore, Furc lied.

[Seacore]

EBWOP:

I'm going to bed.

[Seacore]

Okay, I still find it really hard to believe that Percy would not have clarified the target with Furc, but I am being swayed by the argument that there is little scum reason to lie about it.

So

Unvote

In regards to why I didn't vote for Benmage, it's because I was seeking other opinions and I wasn't entirely against letting him make the kill before killing him.

Giving somebody what is basically a free kill bringshim 1/3 of the way to winning the murder win. THat's significant.

I think a couple of pages ago Lost asked me why I was suspicious of Furc to begin with, it was because it looked like he was caught out in a lie. Then it seemed he wasn't, but now I'm back at saying he was.

I'm going to be V/LA over the Australian weekend.

And finally. Can people please stop talking about TOWN, like it is the same thing as INVESTIGATOR.

Benmage killing Fate would prove himself the latter, it would not prove the former.

[Seacore]

Mod: When does a resuscitator become bloody, in regards to the time line? Do they become bloody prior to investigate? For that matter, when do the victims of failed attacks become bloody? I assume the perpetrators of rituals and murders become bloody at those points.

[Seacore]

I'm back. I've been trying to keep up to date on my phone whenever I had coverage, but that wasn't often.

I seem to not be the lead wagon anymore? Or maybe I still am. If people have questions I'm happy to answer them. I might uncover them as I start to read more thoroughly, but it'll be easier if people just reask them.

My inclination has been to just assume LB and BS are investigators, but I've realised that's because most of the people who accused them accused me, and I KNOW that they were wrong about the latter. But I'm going to go back and look at them in ISO.

I'm struggling though, every time I think I've found scum and ISO them, they seem more investigator to me.
It seems the majority of people are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

[Seacore]

Sigh, TNM, do you really think that, or are you joking?

The mere fact that he quoted me, with tags, would have told him which thread, or indeed, which website, he was posting in.

[Seacore]

Oh wait, apologies, he didn't. Furc quoted him, which is what I was remembering, my bad. Continue with your reasonable suspicion.

[Seacore]

Benmage, my vote is that if you actually believe Fate to be scum, you should kill him, or at least attempt to. I'm concerned that you won't be able to be completely objective in this, because of all the hate, but I think it's important for your motivations and opinions to be the ones that make the decision, so you can be accountable later.

If at this stage, you think he's leaning clean investigator, then don't kill him. That's where he is on my radar, but I'd rather you react to yours.

[Seacore]

Oh wait, apologies, he didn't. Furc quoted him, which is what I was remembering, my bad. Continue with your reasonable suspicion.

Umm...what? You do realise my "reasonable suspicion" implicates you, right?

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.
The fact that I have a town read on Fate and the fact that I'm not a cultist doesn't change the fact that you're suspicous of us for at least one honest reason.

Of course, I don't usually go around telling people to be suspicous of me, but I was effectively trying to undo what I said in the post immediately prior to that which was based on incorrect information.

[Seacore]

Anyway, my votes staying on you Seacore because I found this in your ISO:

Find a chill pill and take it,

Then empty the rest of the bottle into your mouth.

And like I said earlier, I think cult may have been deliberately trying to stir up Fur earlier.

Seriously have a look at his posts immediately before this one. He was off the charts.

[Seacore]

So far the case against me seems to be that I attacked Benmage and Furc.

I attacked Benmage for acting anti-town. I don't think anybody can argue against the fact that basing a N0 action on a personal grudge is anti town. Deeper into my Benmage case was my dislike that many people seemed willing to give him one of the three murders necessary to win as murderer, for free.
Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

I attacked Furc because, to me, it seems he's been caught out on a lie. I find it hard to believe that Percy would not have at least clarified why El Gooski got the target. Furc's reaction to the attack was a whole bunch of OMGUS, he declared found scum in just about anybody who said "dude, I don't think you're confirmed town". Lets make this clear. I don't find the idea that he requested Drippereth and was given El Gooski dodgy. What I find dodgy is that he didn't know why it happened, and I would imagine that would have been explained in the PM.
Also, please note the context, the majority of my Furc attack came in one time period when he, myself and just a few other people were online. So it was very easy to get into a back and forth. That always exagerates how "tunelling" somebody is.

Finally, I think somebody thought I was scummy for the way I defended myself, but I'll need that side of things restated.

Anyway, I don't take back anything I've said about my Benmage case or my Furc case. Benmage has acted anti-town, regardless of his role/alignment. And furc has likely lied. But I'm also satisfied with watching them for the next few days, and I'll start the painful process of ISOing other cases tonight, although I'm struggling to find good targets, I keep seeing really strong town-tells.

[Seacore]

unvote;
vote: seacore

even if this guy is town, he will not help us
he obviously is incapable

Wow, just wow. What exactly have you brought to the game Furc? Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

[Seacore]

Hey Seacore: are you cult?

Let me quickly confer in my QT...


No, I'm an investigator.

[Seacore]

unvote;
vote: seacore

even if this guy is town, he will not help us
he obviously is incapable

Wow, just wow. What exactly have you brought to the game Furc? Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

Is this the person who wanted to lynch Benmage because if nothing else he was anti-Town and what better lynch could you expect Day 1?

Because all I'm saying is that's kinda rich, mister super-defensive I-have-zero-insanities (and excuse me? So you're Cult who got a Rez Kit last Night or something? What's zero insanities supposed to be proving, anyway?).

Hey Seacore: are you cult?

Let me quickly confer in my QT...


No, I'm an investigator.

That's a special response.

Well you'll have to wait at least until Day 2 before seeing that I'm an investigator, but as soon as a die you'll see 0 insanities. The two of them combined will prove that I'm town.

And what kind of response do you expect from a question like RC's?

[Seacore]

Is this the person who wanted to lynch Benmage because if nothing else he was anti-Town and what better lynch could you expect Day 1?

Sorry, I missed this in the first read.

Yes. I wanted to lynch Benmage because at worst he was someone planning to go Murderer and at very best he was anti-town. (Throw in a vague chance he was cult, but I found that less likely)

[Seacore]

No, investigator isn't enough. And thats what you seem to not be understanding. Investigators include some potential murderers.

If we lynched somebody today and they flipped Investigator with 1 insanity point then I would say "Yay, we caught ourselves a potential murderer"

Because nobody should have laundered, nobody has claimed cowered and unless I've missed it, nobody but Benmage has claimed stalk.

Only an investigator with 0 insanity points should be considered a mislynch. Today anway, this obviously needs recalculation as the days proceed and insanity points become a little harder to dodge.

[Seacore]

if you are an investigator why are you suspicious of me for warding?

I'm not suspicous of you for warding. I think warding was one of the good actions. I don't entirely believe your ward claim, that is my point.

are you claiming i didnt ward?

I have no idea what you did or didn't do, I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

if you are claiming i didnt ward, why would i claim ward BEFORE ANYONE ELSE?

why wouldn't you claim that? It's a really safe action that explains noise

if I didn't ward, why did El Goosuki hear noise?

Perhaps you stalked them, or perhaps you're cult and a fetish was made of them.

i also read that wards would cause you to hear noise, but percy changed the rule on me
furthermore, i really thought my ward had gone down alphabetically at one point


how is this not convincing to you, seacore?
if you want to HELP the town, find some scum

Well I'm trying to do that, but currently I'm having to defend myself against, what I feel were, responses to two causes of concern, you and Benmage.

[Seacore]

"Launder, Craft Fetish and Ward can also cause insanity"

Ward could not cause an insanity on N0 as it only causes one on a dead target.

Craft Fetish is not available as an action for Investigators.

Therefore only

Launder (stupid option N0)
Cower (bad option N0, but maybe by lack of access which is why I asked people to claim)
Stalk (most likely anti town action N0)

could cause insanity in Investigators.

[Seacore]

Well if you FLIP Investigator no one's going to go 'HERP DERP HE MIGHT BE A MURDERER'. Before they go Psycho, Murderers can be reformed or even just be misguided Townies who eant to stay Investigator. And besides, what if someone wanted to go Murderer and took Denial last Night HUH Mister wiseguy? In conclusion, your premise is full of holes.

Sorry, but I'm going after Cult until we actually get people Murdering. Benmage doesn't count because claimed one-time Murdering Investigators make it almost impossible for them to win or do damage as Murderers if the Town doesn't fall over dead drunk.

Though you

can

[ only get an Insanity from Ward if you Ward someone who's dead, so that happens to be inapplicable.

Okay, admitidly I totally forgot about denial, although lets face it, that would not be a good insanity for a potential murderer to pick.

I'm okay with investigators using their one off kill to try and vig, but stalking N0 means you chose your target without game information, and that is anti town.

But the rest of your argument has already been told to me and has convinced me previously, that's why I'm not going after Benmage anymore.

[Seacore]

LB's comment about Bowser is exactly why I haven't voted that way, even though I've been so tempted to. CSL did such a bad job of looking town in A Clash of Kings that even as a mod I occassionally forgot that he was town. Placing a vote on him just feels too easy. I ISO'd him to see if I'd missed a better reason, but there's nothing much there, just vague badness.

Anyway, yes, you'll get some actual suspects out of me before I got to bed tonight.

[Seacore]

I'm not saying you were, I'm saying that given your position on Benmage this was a bit . . . yeah:

unvote;
vote: seacore

even if this guy is town, he will not help us
he obviously is incapable

Wow, just wow. What exactly have you brought to the game Furc? Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

Plum, I'm not saying I'm a great player. I'm fairly rubbish at scumhunting through posts, my talent comes from moments of insight when I combine investigations with claims, find holes of logic and catch scum that way. I caught 2 scum in PYP1 through that.

What I objected to was

furc

saying I was useless, when (admitidly from my unique standpoint) I'm aware that he's wrong about me, and probably wrong about LB and Fate.

The other difference was I disliked Benmage being actively anti-town rather than being rubbish-town. I feel there's a difference.

[Seacore]

"Launder, Craft Fetish and Ward can also cause insanity"

that being said, it did not cause me any insanity, so i don't know why that's in the OP. Perhaps if you ward a stalk, or the passing of a fetish.

If anybody is keeping a tally of how confused Furc seems to be getting about the consequences of his claimed N0 action, please add this to it.

[Seacore]

Anyway, I'm leaving work. I'll start ISOing in a few hours after I have some dinner.

[Seacore]

Plenty of willful misunderstanding here by AV, lets break it down.

As for Seacore's recent posts (irony)

My inclination has been to just assume LB and BS are investigators, but I've realised that's because most of the people who accused them accused me, and I KNOW that they were wrong about the latter. But I'm going to go back and look at them in ISO.

He "assumed" people were town because the people who were accusing them were...accusing him? Riiight. If you're going to dispense town reads you should probably do more than just assume. If when you ISO them, they defended you, can you explain whether you think FYPOV its good defending (town on town) or bad defending (scum on town).

I was admitting that I had some potentially bad subconscious reads, and now that I was back from v/la I was planning on re-examining them. I was certainly not trying to convince anybody they were town.

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

I attacked Furc because, to me, it seems he's been caught out on a lie. I find it hard to believe that Percy would not have at least clarified why El Gooski got the target. [...] furc has likely lied.

Seacore, did you see any of the arguments suggesting that (a) Furc had to Ward, or (b) the message would be considered unambiguous? I'm not sure how you can still think he's lying. In this crazy world, do you think it's more likely that he Stalked, or Crafted a Fetish?

I don't know what he's done, I just saw a lie and went "scum". Again, I'm hardly pushing for it anymore, I'm just pointing out that he did something dodgy.

Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

The whole zero insanity thing seems like he wants to cause confusion D2, where we think he's town but he's actually scum. So we spend D2 operating under false assumptions and give his buddies a bit of breathing room.

Um, you'll almost certainly graverob me and find out my actual role on the morning of D2, so I don't know where this confusion will come from.

I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

Could you expand on this "heavy evidence"? Also, don't you think lying about the target would be very risky: what if El G hadn't heard noise? Unless you think El G is scum?

For god sake, I've been through this a few times. In my opinion, Percy's post about what he would and would not have clarified does not match up with Furc's claims. You and others don't agree. Fine. Let's move on.

Placing a vote on him just feels too easy.

You've not voted for most of the game. Surely an easy vote is better than no vote?

Yeah, because that's what I need to do while I'm no1 wagon, I need to throw a weak bandwagon vote prior to actually doing some heavy reading. No, I think I'll hold off until I do my reads.

[Seacore]

Oops, missed some.

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

To be honest, I'd be happy either way. I suppose it might feel more concrete to go after a cult member, especially since you get an unambiguous flip from a graverob, but each potential murderer we kill decreases the NKs by one.

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Well that's a misread of my statement. I said suspicion not "definite slip". The reason for my post was that I made a previous one, under the incorrect assumption that Fate had quoted me in his "slip post". If he had indeed quoted me, that should have been evidence enough that he knew full well what site he was posting on. However I misremembered and was instead clearing it up, lest I be called a liar.

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

Not a lie. I saw a lot of anti-town behaviour and attacked. I was very worried with people who were willing to give Benmage a free pass on his (potentially) first of three murders, simply because he announced that he did it for a non PTW reason. I was later convinced the level of scrutiny Benmage was under would be sufficient protection.

I see a lot of reaching here. AV is creeping upwards in my scum reads, but now I'll stop defending myself and start reading.

[Seacore]

People I've found scummy -

Andrius - Lots of wall posts, with very little to say. Comments on other people's comments and complains about the amount of crap posting.

AurorusVox - The afore mentioned reaching in the case on me. I'm also a bit unsure about the various plans, there seems to be some obvious misreads of the rules, and I can't tell whether this is deliberate.

Bowser - The lurking that others have spoken of.

Plum - Since she landed on me, seems to be content to be unsatisfied with my questions, and hold vague guilt over those who have been associated with me.

And there's still my obvious concern with Benmage and Furc.

In regards to LB and BS, LB is playing how I've seen town Mina and Faraday play. I've seen them both scum and they're not ringing those bells, although it could be that they're helping each other with that. And I can't see anything in BS's ISO that makes me think scum.

[Seacore]

EBWOP: I assumed Seacore had a vote down when I wrote that. But I went back and checked and he doesn't? Seacore, your 958 was a perfect place to vote and I'm curious why you didn't. You've been getting a good deal of (justified) flak for not voting, and you respond by saying that you're going to stop defending yourself and start reading. Then you list your scum reads but don't vote for any of them. What gives?

(Acknowledging the Baby Spice ninja, but I have to get to class. I'll respond later today.)

You're right. That was my bad, I was distracted IRL. I paused after writing the post to decide which would get my vote, got distracted and clicked submit.

Vote:AV

Seems the scummiest out of my list. But I'll jump to any of them should the deadline approach.

[Seacore]

The point of all this? Seacore's push on furc was opportunistic. The fact you can't see that could be because you know him out side of MS, because I have been burned like that before. That or you are his buddy. But the fact is, Seacore's hands are very dirty when it comes to furc. He also hasn't placed another vote since that I have seen. How can he not have another suspect at this point even just to bandwagon?

You're missing the point.

I have really one piece of evidence for which I thought Furc should be lynched. His lie.
To me, that was enough. I did not expect a longer case built on him, a series of connections with other players etc. Just that.

The majority of players are clearly not willing to lynch him for it. Either they don't believe he lied or they don't believe the lie is a big deal and/or scummy.

So I left the wagon, because it was not going to go anywhere.

I understand that from a glance that looks opportunistic, but it is simply realistic.
For most lynches you have a growing case against somebody, they do a series of scummy things, and thus to jump on while it's hot and jump off with everybody else, yet, that looks like opportunistic wagon hopping.

But that doesn't apply here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have no idea how to even begin responding to Furc.

You want me to base a town read on you by
a) believing your problematic series of night action claims AND
b) trusting that your supposed target will still be alive by D3?

Since I can't read your mind and I can't see the future, you'll have to understand why I can't take these things as facts.

Yes, in 40 pages I missed and/or forgot about denial. Thats not a big deal, there's a lot going on. But I also explain how that would be one of the worst insanities a murderer trying to stay under the radar could take.

My comment about LB's Bowser comment wasn't a read of LB, it was just an agreement that Bowser is problematic because it's a scummy looking slot, that has CSL in it (somebody who nearly always looks scummy) and it just felt a bit too easy to attack.

Let me ask you something Furc.
Put on your "hypothetical hat"
What happens if you lynch me today, I reveal as investigator after a graverob.
D2 you decide to lynch LB, because hey, you can't be wrong twice can you? But then they reveal as investigator.

What would you be doing Day 3?
And will you admit your reads are wrong on that day?

[Seacore]

Ah, I see the time paradox now.
My above post was in response to Furclow's 1:10 pm post

[Seacore]

Seacore - what's your point regarding Furc, again?

Depends what you mean.

I find him scummy. I'm not satisfied by his claims. Lies, in my books, are always scummy, and if I ever catch somebody in one, I like to lynch them.

That being said, it is clear now that a majority of people are not willing to lynch Furc on Day 1 for this.
I accept that, I'm a realist, so now I'm moving on.

The only reason I have kept talking about Furc since my unvote has been pretty much to defend myself against the accusation that my attack on him was scummy. Which is tricky because it looks like I'm making a case that I'm not pushing for.

[Seacore]

Ah, I see the time paradox now.
My above post was in response to Furclow's 1:10 pm post

Question stands.

Keep your pants on, I was typing the response.

You might want to look into that, people might think you're tunnelling me and trying to make me look scummy.

[Seacore]

In response to AV's 960

Yes, that was me just saying "you know what, I should really look closer at these people, because I've just been assuming they were mislabelled along with me"

I've seen the arguments for Furc not lying, to me, they don't stand up. My fundamental issue is that I can't believe Percy wouldn't confirm.

I will not let go of my belief that Furc is lying. But no, that won't jeopardise my posts for the rest of the day, because even if Furc isn't, his arguments are utter shit. He's attacked anybody who has said they don't believe him. I've looked into my supposed scum buddies: Fate, LB and BS, and they all seem town to me. Probably in that order of towniness by my reads. His logic has so many gaps in it I have trouble typing responses. So no, I don't view that as an issue.

There were enough prod votes on Bowser without mine, and I was worried throwing mine on there would distract from the prods by opening an argument about my "opportunism"

I don't expect you to see and/or admit to reaching

My issue with your plan is that I've seen scum make faulty plans before. It is much easier than usual to do it in these complex rules. Basically you come up with a plan that looks good. Best case scenario people buy it and hurt town. Worst case scenario people spend days pulling it apart and scum hunting takes a back seat.

[Seacore]

Then why are you arguing with him about whether his reads are correct or not? If you really believe he's lying, wouldn't the obvious explanation be 'it's all scum fabrications to me anyway' from your point of view? Granted I might be missing a few things between chronogate and sheer information overload of the thread (be doing a Baby Spice read tonight/when chronogate has been resolved, methinks).

Well
a) other people seem to be using his reads, or at least accepting his reads, and that concerns me.
b) it was admitidly born out of a little frustration in which he's asked me to predict 2 days ahead to assume he's innocent but seems unwilling to question his own reads for a second.

So mostly it was written to Furc-town whether or not he exists.

[Seacore]

WOW I'm psychic, I'm answering questions BEFORE they are asked!

-DGB

Is anybody in your hydra attempting to get caught up?

If so, is there an ETA on that?

[Seacore]

Testing....

.... I think we're past chronogate

[Seacore]

Furc,

How is this:

OK so you're saying I'm a good lynch when my fucking action can be proved to NOT have them killed?
MY action prevents both stalks AND fetishes being crafted of them
when they don't die tomorrow or the next day,

WHAT THEN SEACORE?

Where you are asking me what my reaction is to events that have not happened regardless of other noises, other wagon analysis and etc, compatible logically with this:

Seacore, when I ask you what I'll flip I don't have to put out a hypothetical situation
I would have multiple days of wagon analysis and more analysis
You're neglecting that people will be dying, those that heard noise
You know why? Because you are worried

Where you object to me asking you what you'll do in a hypothetical situation.

See what I mean, you're so stuck in tunnel land that you aren't being consistent in your logic. If you truly are town, stop and consider this.

[Seacore]

Wait, I thought the Cult could kill each night regardless of stalking.

Fetishes give people extra insanities, and the Ritual kills 'em, right?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Why did you think there was no ritual Night 0 if there were no requirements for it? I'm suspicious that this may be an attempt to "not understand how cult works, so how could I be a cultist".

[Seacore]

Regardless, your flip to you was hypothetical. I know what my flip would be. That was my answer, in sentence one. Did that go over your head?

Answer the question, how can you be confirmed in comparison to me? I can be confirmed. How are you helping the town? Quit dodging the real issue.

I'm trying to understand what you're talking about.
I asked you to consider what would happen if you successfully lead my lynch and then discovered, upon my death, that I was town. That has nothing to do with your flip being hypothetical. In this scenario, I'm accepting you as town also, and saying that you were wrong and now you have to re-evaluate.

I asked you this after you asked me what I would do when El Goo stays alive for two nights thus potentially proving your action.

So where does you knowing you're town come into it.

Secondly my flip to me is not hypothetical, I know I'm an investigator and I've chosen to be town.

Nowhere have I said I can be confirmed, except obviously upon my death. My argument is that you are also not confirmed, and cannot be. If, for example, you stalked El Gooski, you could simply hold off on killing them. Alternatively, perhaps you are cult and have crafted a fetish of them, well that could be used later. El Gooski staying alive does not confirm you.

[Seacore]

Aaah ReaperCharlie IS scum.

Yes good good.

Why do I hear Emperor Palpatine in your voice there?

[Seacore]

BECAUSE I AM AN EVILMASTERMIND THAT SCUM FEAR AND KILL N1.

*CACKLES*

NOW HURRY UP AND GET THIS WAGON OFF YOU SEACORE SO WE CAN MOVE ON TO SERIOUS BUSINESS.

I'm trying, but people seem to need more convincing. Maybe I should die and be revealled as town, then people will stop voting for me.

I'm going to move on to RC as well though, maybe a few more prods will actually get an answer to the question he's been dodging for a while.

UNVOTE: AV VOTE: RC

[Seacore]

Which means that if I am Ritual Killed ON TOP of Ben's stalk+a rez tonight cult get Kill that DOESNT resolve in them being bloody, and Ben doesn't get 100% cleared.

I don't get this. Benmage targets you with Murder. Investigator A targets you with Rez, Cutlists 1, 2 and 3 target you with ritual.

As far as I can tell, you end up dead and Benmage, Investigator A and all three cultists end up bloody.

[Seacore]

I can explain ReaperCharlie's wagon if you'd like.

[Seacore]

Regardless, your flip to you was hypothetical. I know what my flip would be. That was my answer, in sentence one. Did that go over your head?

Answer the question, how can you be confirmed in comparison to me? I can be confirmed. How are you helping the town? Quit dodging the real issue.

I'm trying to understand what you're talking about.
I asked you to consider what would happen if you successfully lead my lynch and then discovered, upon my death, that I was town. That has nothing to do with your flip being hypothetical. In this scenario, I'm accepting you as town also, and saying that you were wrong and now you have to re-evaluate.

I asked you this after you asked me what I would do when El Goo stays alive for two nights thus potentially proving your action.

So where does you knowing you're town come into it.

Secondly my flip to me is not hypothetical, I know I'm an investigator and I've chosen to be town.

Nowhere have I said I can be confirmed, except obviously upon my death. My argument is that you are also not confirmed, and cannot be. If, for example, you stalked El Gooski, you could simply hold off on killing them. Alternatively, perhaps you are cult and have crafted a fetish of them, well that could be used later. El Gooski staying alive does not confirm you.

someone trying to stalk him last night would have confirmed me

Of course, or somebody trying to fetish him.

Any potential murderers or cultists around that want to confess they couldn't succeed in their evil acts? Furc would really appreciate you clearing him and dooming yourself to a lynch.

[Seacore]

It'd be a nice change of pace.

First of all, lets not get crazy in calling these things "wagons", mines the largest at 6, but in a game where we need over a dozen votes, none of these are exactly run away trains.

But, semantics aside, the case on RC is basically threefold.

1) He's contradicted himself.

2) He keeps dodging questions about the contradiction, even in posts that are soley directed at him. One a page or so ago was right before his own post, I don't know how he can claim to have missed it.

3) He asked a "confused" question about how cultists work that a) should have been easy to check by going to the OP and b)involved a level of ignorance that is unlikely. In short, he claimed to believe cultists could just do ritual like a normal mafia NK, that the fetish was unrelated. This doesn't explain why there was no night kill N0. It just doesn't add up.

Personally, my vote on his is mainly for 2, but 3 feels mega guilty.

[Seacore]

Which means that if I am Ritual Killed ON TOP of Ben's stalk+a rez tonight cult get Kill that DOESNT resolve in them being bloody, and Ben doesn't get 100% cleared.

I don't get this. Benmage targets you with Murder. Investigator A targets you with Rez, Cutlists 1, 2 and 3 target you with ritual.

As far as I can tell, you end up dead and Benmage, Investigator A and all three cultists end up bloody.

It CLEARLY says "if they were NOT murdered"

Mod: Hypothetical: A stalk is carried out, the person is resuciatated, and Cult Greater Rituals ON TOP OF IT. Does the cult get bloody because the person was technically not murdered? (he was saved from it) or do they not get bloody because the target was targeted with Murder?

I believe there is a difference from "the target of a murder action" and "murdered". I read the latter as when it actually results in the target's death. It doesnt' make much sense any other way.

[Seacore]

Mod: Hypothetical: A stalk is carried out, the person is resuciatated, and Cult Greater Rituals ON TOP OF IT. Does the cult get bloody because the person was technically not murdered? (he was saved from it) or do they not get bloody because the target was targeted with Murder?

Um, the action you're referring to isn't stalk, stalk is done the night before a murder. Stalk never results in somebody's death on it's own.

So I think your question should be

Mod: Hypothetical: A

murder

is carried out, the

target of that murder action

is resuciatated, and Cult

Rituals or

Greater Rituals ON TOP OF IT. Does the cult get bloody because the person was technically not murdered? (he was saved from it) or do they not get bloody because the target was targeted with Murder?

My understanding of it is the cult only get bloody from the ritual if
a) the ritual is the cause of a player's death
b) the player's death, from the ritual, is prevented by resucitation

[Seacore]

Actually, that's just reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask

Mod: Player A, B and C resucitate Player D. That night, Player D, obvious bastion of town that he is, is targeted by a murder and a greater ritual (without corpse dust).

Does he survive, since the one level of murder death, plus the two levels of greater ritual death are soaked by the resucitations? If there was corpse dust, would he die (by count of death)?
And in these cases, I'm assuming everybody would be bloody by the end of it.

[Seacore]

I don't want to move away from Bowser just yet; but Reaper, why did you post that as a question instead of looking back at the rules?

Because I already read the rules, and still misunderstood this. Plus, I'm pretty lazy. I thought you could tell

Also... Seacore, stfu. You are cult and trying to attach a WIFOMspiral to my innocent question. SCREW YOU

So, you're still not going to answer the questions we've asked?

[Seacore]

Whoever is calling me scummy, i.e. Seacore, Vas, Magna, (& Co.?), SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIMS.

WHAT HAVE I DONE THAT IS SCUMMY THIS ENTIRE GAME.

OOHHHHHH WAIT THATS RIGHT.

YOU IDIOTS.

Answer the question that has been asked for you. Explain your contradiction. Why do you keep avoiding it?

[Seacore]

Yes, the flavours are different; but he can claim his murder was rezzed away - as, in fact, we're already planning to allow him to do.

Actually this reminds me of something that should be brought up.

There's almost certainly going to be a greater ritual tonight, I don't see a reason why it would just be a standard one.

So: Benmage murdering fate, Player A rezzing fate, Cultists doing ritual
will look the same as
Player A rezzing fate, Cultists doing greater ritual.

Both of them allow a rezzer to step forward and say "I tried to Rez Fate last night and I got blood all over me, but fate is still dead"

Hell, Cultist-Benmage could have had one of his buddies pick up a rez kit for that express purpose, i.e. in my second example, Player A could be cult.

I'm not saying this is what happened or will happen, I'm just saying we can't discount it just because of the kill flavour

[Seacore]

sigh, fate. I've said that I think you are town and that benmage is more likely investigator than cultist.

My post is in fact saying that speculation is dumb because greater ritual makes the whole thing impossible to read. I just wanted it out there first.

Also, you don't get to dictate what I talk about, so drop the bold caps.

[Seacore]

With the cult having daytalk at their disposal, I'm doubting that a cult member would bother openly questioning how their kill mechanics work when they can easily get that cleared up in their QT.

With the OP there I doubt anybody would need to ask such an easily answerable question, particularly one that would explain why there were no kills during Night 0.

However, you're missing the point.
None of us are saying that RC asked the question to genuinely find out the answer, we're saying he asked it to look like he didn't understand how the ritual worked, in an attempt to look as non-cult as possible.

It's particularly interesting that he has taken a comment of mine about how frustrating the Fate/Benmage thing was in early days and decided its a scum tell, as I'm pretending to be a concerned townie.
Yet we're not allowed to take this as a scum tell, because it's just a sign of his laziness.

I.e. He's allowed to be lazy, I'm not allowed to be frustrated.

[Seacore]

With the cult having daytalk at their disposal, I'm doubting that a cult member would bother openly questioning how their kill mechanics work when they can easily get that cleared up in their QT.

With the OP there I doubt anybody would need to ask such an easily answerable question, particularly one that would explain why there were no kills during Night 0.

However, you're missing the point.
None of us are saying that RC asked the question to genuinely find out the answer, we're saying he asked it to look like he didn't understand how the ritual worked, in an attempt to look as non-cult as possible.

Valid point, but weak IMO.

It's no the main reason I'm voting for him. His avoidance of questions is primary. He expresses two contradictory views about how hydras should be viewed in regards to scumtells. He ignores the question time and time again and finally his response is "I don't think it's contradictory".
a) Yes, it is contradictory
b) Why did he avoid the question for so long, one of the times it was asked was in a post directly before one of his posts. So either it was the last thing he read before he posted, or it would have popped up int he preview.

[Seacore]

Putting that into a list...

TOWN
...
...


PEOPLE LEFT
...
...

What I personally enjoy about these lists is the strength of the arguments. It really assists me in evaluating El Gooski's motivations.

[Seacore]

Does Percy's VC's cover the wagons in this game or were there a few in between the,
(Bowser -> Furco -> Seacore)

I think there may have been a time when Lost Butterfly was up there, but thats a maybe without looking into it. But most people on the LB attack were also on the Seacore attack.

[Seacore]

Auro
Baby
Bower
Kunk
Magna
Nopoint
Seacore
Wick
Xvart

^^^ Are any of these guys scum?

Auro and Bowser by my reads. Auro stretches and dilberately misunderstands and Bowser is an active lurker who has posted in other games, (bowser is basically CSL from what I can see).

[Seacore]

I think there may have been a time when Lost Butterfly was up there, but thats a maybe without looking into it. But most people on the LB attack were also on the Seacore attack.

Oh, yeah?

Those players are the cult members. We must kill them all.

List?

Well I don't think they're all scum, but here's a snap shot.

Plum, ReaperCharlie, AurorusVox, totallynotmafia, Trilobite, VP Baltar, xvart, Furcolow, Fate

Of those, I have a town read on Fate, and an null read on VP and xvart. I have no read (different to a null read) on totallynotmafia.
The rest are bad.
So

Plum, ReaperCharlie, AurorusVox, Trilobite, Furcolow

[Seacore]

Hmm, change totallynotmafia to null, I just did a super quick iso. It's odd how he was completely off my radar, but I think all the players who's names are phrases are melting in my head.

[Seacore]

ReaperCharlie
AurorusVox
totallynotmafia (null?)
Trilobite
VP Baltar
xvart
Fate

We blow up any of these players and we have a 60% chance of hitting scum.

Well join us on the RC train.
We believe we've found scum
You believe he's a better than even chance of being scum.

We can all get along with his lynch.

[Seacore]

Kunkstar and RC, since the cat is out of the bag, did you ward?

Negative. I searched for a Resuscitation Kit.

Eager to devulge that he searched for a resuc kit, even though we were only asking if people warded and/or heard noises. Trying to be loud about his 'pro-town' action.

Seacore's post #120 is quite juicy and was begging me to sink my teeth into it:

Is there a way to filter Benmage and Fate out from all the other posts?

trying to play the annoyed townie.

In other news, anybody who things I'm cult

with Fate just because I disbelieve Benmage has perfect meta

is a moron.

SEACORE IS SCUM. CULT. WHATEVER. HE NEEDS TO GO.

Unvote; Vote SEACORE.

Voting for me because I'm "trying to play annoyed townie" while later we're supposed to accept that he's a lazy townie.
Also, note that he's unvoting Benmage in this post, so he too disbelieved Benmage's claim, at least at this point.

Too much Benmage and Fate back and forth.

Vote: Magna

Love this post. HAHA. But vote Seacore, we'll win a lot easier with him gone.

at this point i'm considering stalking and killing benmage if he doesnt carry out his kill
waste your vig....... on a cult.......
you don't fucking need it, there are 75% investigators, you're not a fucking hero

ROFL! I love this too. This is 100% gold. Which is why we are NOT lynching Furc today (or maybe, any other day either).

Ben: Making them lose an action, lose a res. kit, confirming you as town (unless they decide not to perform the ritual) AND letting us lynch someone else today - that's a pretty sweet deal for the low, low price of one insanity. Seems to me that the biggest reason to oppose that is "I actually used Craft Fetish and not Stalk." Savvy?

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

somebody hand this man a dozen roses.

I'm looking at you, fate

A small sampling of his "I love this" posts.

p.s. tl;dr on any/all of my posts is:

VOTE SEACORE
FURC IS TOWN
I AM AWESOME
(and also town)

...

good evening.

Consistent pushing that he is town. Say it enough people might assume it's been at least semi-confirmed.

Wait, I thought the Cult could kill each night regardless of stalking.

Fetishes give people extra insanities, and the Ritual kills 'em, right?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Trying to look clueless about cult rules, because why would he need to know them, he's not cult? (Yes, he's cult)

This is on top of his dodging questions about his inconsistency. But that was hard to find in his ISO, I'll go find those next.

[Seacore]

RE The RC's claim that I"m just doing an OMGUS vote:

LOL.

That is all.

[Seacore]

Summary, with some time stamps, of RC's dodging

Triglav first asks RC to explain his contradiction on Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:10 pm

Getting a feeling that Triglav is trying to coast through this game. His latest posts sounds like a bit of mimicking off other people instead of actually providing his own thoughts in the game. When examining what they post, it feels more artifical then those of the other hydra, as if they are trying too hard to agree on everything instead of taking risks and posting their individual thoughts on the game. This is probably gut, but it's not giving me good feelings.

This paragraph in #779 is beautiful. And overall I get the awesometown feel from most if not all of #779.

going, "LOL, Lost Butterfly is scum because it's schizo and contradicts itself" is shallow analysis when two people will obviously never have the same opinions 100% of the time.

So you think you can just say this, and then suddenly you'll be able to backtrack as much as you want without suspicion?

Cool story bro.

In reaperCharlie's world;
SSBF is right for calling out Triglav for trying to get hydra heads to agree before posting thoughts to avoid backtracking/different reads.
Also
Lost Butterfly is scummy for having hydra heads post separate - having different reads- and then backtracking once consensus is reached.


@ReaperCharlie - you appear to either be lying about one of these beliefs or you are not getting your hydra heads to agree on opinions before you make them, which is it?
RC is on scum list now.

Reaper posts at Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:30 pm, quoting Triglav's 3:13 post. Ignoring his 3.10 post, just how far back is Reaper choosing to read?

Also, Triglav

should manage to stay sexy

for rest of game.

We are

Adel, Albert B. Rampage, Zorblag, and Ythan

(twice).

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Reaper posts 6 more times not answer the question (this is forgivable, there's a lot going on, although I think the fact that he quoted Triglav minutes after the question but ignored it is scummy as hell.


Triglav tries again at Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:38 pm

Lost Butterfly is scummier than all get out, and you know it.

And you are not much better. Nice WIFOMGUS though.

There still is the elephant in the room in that you are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself here.

1) Hydras should not take time to co-ordinate reads/suspicions to avoid conflicting opinions and suspicions in the game-thread from the same player slot.
2) Hydras should not post without co-ordination and should instead take the time to get stories straight.

The two statements can not mutually survive. You are stating both. You need to pick one. You've essentially also done exactly what you're accusing LB of being scummy for, as you've contradicted your own read. Just you're not a hydra, so you don't even have that cop out.

Nice buzzwording though.

Reaper posts again at Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:33 pm with still no answer to the question

Triglav asks a third time at Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:54 pm with nothing else in the post and a link to earlier

Reaper posts again at Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:01 pm with no answer (this was his "why can't cultists kill whoever they want without a fetish" comment)

Triglav votes.

Reaper still ignores the question, eventually asks somebody to repost them and finally answers like this

5. I think SSBF's point against Triglav was awesome, and I also hate Lost Butterfly's schizophrenia. That's not a contradiction, so shove it up your @$$.

[Seacore]

I expect the cult to flee from the Seacore wagon likes its oon fire now, btw

Lol, can you say that after they jump off it please? I'd like them to be encouraged to not vote for me

Also, maybe people will agree that my case on RC is just OMGUS. I mean it's obvious isn't it?

@ Lost Butterfly

I'm forgiving nopointinactingup at the moment because, assuming he's reading through chronologically, he hasn't got to my answers for some of his concerns. But yeah, I had the same initial reaction as you.

Also, in regards to RC's cult slip, I think that's been mislabelled, unless I've missed it as well. I think it refers to his comment about not knowing how ritual/fetishes work. It's not a slip, I think it's a deliberate attempt to look investigator.

If there's a slip, I haven't based any of my case on it and I'd like to see it.

[Seacore]

Faraday and I have had a mixed read on ReaperCharlie all game. Honestly, I'm in agreement that much of what RC's been arguing is crap and that he's ignored or deflected questions to him with lame jokes and snide comments. My only doubt is that I can sadly believe he'd act like this as town just because his head was so far up his ass that he doesn't want to admit that he's wrong. He came comes across as very seat-of-his-pants.

Yeah, I can respect this. But it's also the little things, the declaring I'm just OMGUSing when he's clearly doing the same. That doesn't seem to be town, that seems like flailing scum.

Oh, and almost forgot to sign my posts.

~Mina

[/quote] Entirely unnecessary, for me at least. Sometimes your posts read so Mina that I have to go back and check you haven't posted in your account.

[Seacore]

Have to take a closer look at the various wagons but my first impression is that they contain oppetunists who are just looking for a wagon to vote. (Wether they are worthy wagons or not.)

This is the first time BS has pinged my scumdar.

We're a week into the game, and all you have to say on "the various wagons" is that they contain opportunists. That's a pretty nothing thing to say, opportunists will always take the opportunity to jump onto wagons. But the way you've said it sets up an easy dismissal of all the wagons.

Also RC has answered the hyprocacy question in that he has said there is no hypocracy and we should stop asking him about it.

[Seacore]

With xvart's list complete, this is everybody's last chance to admit they cowered or laundered during N0

Assuming nil returns on that, the only people who should have insanity points at this stage are Cultists who crafted 3 fetishes, potential murderers and benmage.*

[Seacore]

ATTENTION

I have decided to graverob.

I just got a message from someone about mowing a lawn, and it reminded me of this. I have decided it is the most pro-town thing that I can do, counteracting the natural janitorial process of non-flipping.

I will not be stating the insanities I am taking.

I think you'll find that's completely unacceptable.

Whether people believe you are town, investigator or whatever, enough people agree that your declaration of your night action so far has been unclear and hardly dependable.

On top of this, you want to not tell us what your insanity is? That is definitely unacceptable. You will openly declare which one it is, so we can track it.

[Seacore]

And also the caps

But mainly the misogyny

[Seacore]

Not to mention, posts like I've copied below look VERY HEAVILY like scum distancing AND coaching:

Except that, as has been stated several times, scum have a day talk QT, so why would coaching need to be out here.

[Seacore]

Re Furc's special insanity privledges:

I hate this, so much. He should have to abide by both the list and I think he should tell us, we need to keep track of everything. I don't see how knowing disadvantages us (or advantages scum) more than us not knowing disadvantages us.
Yes, I've read the argument that says "scum can plan things if they know", but so can we.
As for not having to pick things off the list, that's an even bigger hell no. Furc should have to pick things off the list.


Re RC's flailing defence posts:

Seriously, there is so much deliberate twisting of posts here it's ridiculous. Also, my "defence of AV" that was noted... I think you'll find that you were accusing AV of coaching and distancing from me... meaning it was also an attack at me... so I was defending myself.

Re Hito's taco comment:

Man crush.

[Seacore]

Re Furc's special insanity privledges:

Well yes, I agree; and I think most people agree with the concept that more info helps town. Licensing Furc to go off and be Special Agent on whatever mad plan he likes is not ideal; but the problem is that now we've all (more or less) agreed that he's probably town, we're not going to lynch him. And if he knows we're not going to lynch him, we have absolutely no way to compel him to obey us.

But in a way, this is a circular argument. A circular argument with the assumption that Furc is an investigator. Let's say that's true (although I'm not sold that it's confirmed)

Furc is an investigator who was either planning to stay town, or made such a botch of things as potential murderer that it would be stupid to go murderer now because of all of the suspicion and attention on him.
Therefore Furc is confirmed town.
Therefore Furc is allowed to get away with dodgy shit like picking whatever insanity he wants and not telling us. Not to mention declaring himself graverobber as opposed to discussing it with town.
Therefore Furc is no longer confirmed town (whether or not he's investigator), because his special privledges are giving him an improved chance of running under the radar.

Then there's the fact that I don't even trust him to make the smart decisions.

And you're right Tom, most people, at this stage, don't want to waste a lynch on him so we have nothing to threaten him with.

Nothing, unless we give somebody permission to Vig him.

Please note, I'm not saying he should be killed, but I'm saying it should be considered as a method of enforcing him to play on our team.

[Seacore]

A quick little tally on our lead wagon, since it's been a while since our last offical vote count, and while I do want RC dead, I want it to be a deliberate death, not a "oops, I didn't realise I was hammering" death.

ReaperCharlie - 10

(Triglav, Seacore, Fate, VasudeVa, MagnaofIllusion, SpyreX, xvart, AV, kunk, Feysal)

With Tom's potential vote tonight, that's 11.

4 more people please.

Anybody who is on a wagon of 2 or less (or is not voting at all) should really start to vote for somebody more likely (hint: vote RC, he's scum).

Hell, even Furc pointed out a reasonable argument for RC-scum.
RC claimed to have picked up a rez kit.
But then offered to ward furc.
With all the people who heard noises last night, wouldn't a townie with a rez kit be planning on saving a life?

Vote with your head.
Vote reaper charlie dead.

I am Seacore, and I approve this message.

[Seacore]

Seacore and xvart: who is scum when I flip town?

I'd start with looking at El Goo, Trilo and AV,

But I'm not big on doing lage hypothetical connection arguments. I think you're scum because if your scummy actions, not your connections.

[Seacore]

Seacore and xvart: who is scum when I flip town?

I'd start with looking at El Goo, Trilo and AV,

But I'm not big on doing lage hypothetical connection arguments. I think you're scum because if your scummy actions, not your connections.

Oh, my bad, sorry, I read it as when he flips scum.

To me, a town flip will tell me very little. I've looked at everybody who is voting for you and I'm satisfied that they have good reason. That doesn't mean there aren't scum on the wagon, with 7 cultists and 15 votes needed, 1 or 2 are bound to get in on the bus early.

Just because somebody says "I agree with the points other people have raised and I find Player A scummy" does not mean they are sheeping, it means they've seen a strong argument and agree with it.

This is a scum-driven wagon.

By scum driven, what do you mean?
Do you scum started the wagon? If so, who out of Triglav, Fate and I do you find scummiest?

Or do you mean that the wagon is being most loudly pushed by scum?

In which case, who out of the people on the wagon who are touting it the loudest... lets say, Triglave, myself, fate and xvart... are the scummy ones?

Or do you mean there are scum on the wagon? in which case, of course there are.

Also

TOWN

Drippereth
LynchMePls
Unsight
Benmage
Percy
Vezopiraka
hasdgfas
danakillsu
MagnaOfIllusion

Percy, Dana and MOI were scum.

A later list from that same day does little but add Super Smash Bros. Fan to the list of town, he was the Serial Killer

Another nice quote from that day

I think RAIVAN is TOWN, but I don't think I agree with him on much at all.

Raivann was a scum godfather.

So, you'll understand why I don't want to just believe your reads, particularly without evidence.

[Seacore]

Noone ever quotes the times I'm right.
I'll catch up laater tonight...have a competition to prepare for...

Oh but I did.

Out of the list of 10 people you said were town over those quotes 5 were town.
So you were right 50% of the time

I flipped my coin, and it landed tails, so I'm going to go with RC as scum this time.

[Seacore]

So, this is your summary of why I voted for you.

Seacore

Post #1015

:

BECAUSE I AM AN EVILMASTERMIND THAT SCUM FEAR AND KILL N1.

*CACKLES*

NOW HURRY UP AND GET THIS WAGON OFF YOU SEACORE SO WE CAN MOVE ON TO SERIOUS BUSINESS.

I'm trying, but people seem to need more convincing. Maybe I should die and be revealled as town, then people will stop voting for me.

I'm going to move on to RC as well though, maybe a few more prods will actually get an answer to the question he's been dodging for a while.

UNVOTE: AV VOTE: RC

Voted me for dodging questions. Ok, that's a reason.

And yet before it:

Well join us on the RC train.
We believe we've found scum
You believe he's a better than even chance of being scum.

We can all get along with his lynch.

Pure OMGUS.

Based on this post:

Seacore's post #120 is quite juicy and was begging me to sink my teeth into it:

Is there a way to filter Benmage and Fate out from all the other posts?

trying to play the annoyed townie.

In other news, anybody who things I'm cult

with Fate just because I disbelieve Benmage has perfect meta

is a moron.

SEACORE IS SCUM. CULT. WHATEVER. HE NEEDS TO GO.

Unvote; Vote SEACORE.

That's really the only reason you're voting me... c'mon... don't lie.

And after it:

Did your coin say "In OMGUS we trust?" lmao

Apparently my vote is based on OMGUS.

So why wasn't that mentioned in your summary? Did you forget that was your catchall defence against my case?

[Seacore]

LOL.

Also, while I can't provide links because it was on a different site, I've played with Tom before (and know him IRL) and he is a very slow and patient voter.

I'm not saying he's obvtown to me, but he hasn't been acting out of character so far.

[Seacore]

a bunch of useless scum-driven caps, omgus, and likewise inane drivel posted on the basis that I am scum and not town.

Is this the kind of stuff you're trying to avoid? I can understand why, it's pretty painful to read.

1. PLAYING TO TOWN'S "ENOUGH FATE/BENMAGE ALREADY" EMOTIONS
2. CALLING ANYBODY THINKING HE'S SCUM (WITH FATE) A MORON (SUPER WIFOM SANDWICH)

WHAT THE @#$^ DO YOU THINK OF THAT, VAS?

A LITTLE BIT OF CHAINSAW BECAUSE I'M ATTACKING YOUR SCUMBUDDY AND STARTING A (POPULAR, MIGHT I ADD) WAGON ON HIM?

[Seacore]

I'll need to look at the wagon in context to make a really good judgment. I realize that that doesn't tell you guys much, so I'll outline what I'm looking for. If the RC wagon swelled off of this piddly base, I've got some serious bad vibes, it's probably scum driven on town-RC. If it swelled instead off of his more worrying posts, there's a good chance that this little thing switched into a strong pressure wagon and got us a scum. Or, to summarize - an RC wagon makes sense in hindsight, but I'm not quite sure if it made sense when it was made or if the scum just set up an arbitrary wagon and got a lucky, scummy looking reaction out of him.

I don't think it's as binary as that though.
I know my thoughts about RC went this way:
1) His fetish/cult question stopped and made me think "A cultist would probably want to look clueless about being a cultist".
2) The comment came around the same time that triglav was trying to nail him down to answer a question
3) I stopped and thought "since nobody agrees that furclow should be lynched for lying (I've dropped the argument, but it is what I was thinking at the time), I might as well throw some weight behind the prod vote, since he seems pretty scummy anyway."
4) How much he was buddying encouraged me to actually vote.
5) From there he's just been flailing in a down spiral, and I agree his biggest tells are probably his reaction to the wagon.

But if you go back in time to look at the wagon, it'll seem I voted for him because of his dodgy question and his questionable dodging (heh).

What I'm trying to say is, just because some of us jumped on for lesser (but still acceptable) reasons, doesn't mean we haven't been thoroughly encouraged to stay on the wagon by later reasons.
This game has got huge. We're at 56 pages already. Combined with this there's painful arguments, chronic lurkers and "I'm catching up" posters. It's very easy and appealing to say "what are the three biggest wagons? Do any of the arguments appeal to me" That's how I believe my wagon grew and that's how I believe RC's grew.

[Seacore]

Just a public service post

The site is going to go down for a little while some stage Friday.

...

So how about we lynch RC now, and have the night as downtime!

I'm not completely serious about that, but just heads up for the downtime.

[Seacore]

That said there is an easy test for this. I’ll simply wait for someone to vote me each Day and when they do I’ll move my vote to someone who hasn’t voted me. Anyone can do this and I’m sure it is easy enough to devise tests for the other voting insanities. For that reason I think it is fairly pointless to focus on them this early.

In relation to this kind of testing, we should make people 'break' their supposed insanity twice. Because one will just get them a warning in a PM (unlike SAII which had it for the world to see) whereas making them do it a second time would get the modkilled, assuming it was for the same thing.

Also, where is Benmage? I've seen him around today, in fact, he PM'd me.

[Seacore]

Yes, it is to test that they don't have an insanity, which was the context of the quote.

[Seacore]

Okay, there's less than 5 days left. Anybody coming on and posting "I don't like the RC wagon" isn't good enough.

You must make a case on somebody else. Preferably xvart or myself. (Preferably not myself).

Anybody who just turns up and just says "The RC wagon looks bad, I'm not convinced" is not being pro-town.

[Seacore]

Seacore. Respond.

To what? Sorry, I must have missed a question.

Umm, Seacore, 5 days is a long time, and RC only needs 4 more votes, and everybody playing this game has played at least 5 games before so we're not stupid enough to let day 1 end in a no-lynch. So what's your rush?

First of all 5 days is not a huge time with an unwieldly amount of players like this.
Second, I did not ask for people to vote RC and end the day. I asked people to contribute more. I've noticed a lot of people have gone quiet, and they seem to be popping back in to simply say "gee, this RC wagon seems strange" and then they stay quiet.

My suspicion is that there are a bunch of people who want to distance themselves from what they perceive as an almost inevitable RC lynch. But they also either don't have another target or don't want to go after somebody else, so they are hanging back so they can lynch him at deadline because "a no lynch is a bad idea".

I want people to start making legit cases.

[Seacore]

@nopo

I've answered that already, but I'll do it again.

I think he lied. It's not 100% confirmed, but I think it's very likely he lied. For me, that's enough for him to be the day 1 lynch. I have no extra case on him, no series of relationships between other players, no vote analysis. He lied, let's string the bastard up.
So I voted. For that reason.
And if 14 people agreed that that reason was sufficient, I'd be hoisting a rope and playing piñata.

But they didn't. Only a few people agreed with me.
So I decided to not spend 2 weeks posting "come on guys, this guy should die" instead, I decided I was incredibly suspicious of him, knew I'd keep watch and moved on to find somebody else, because there's more scum in the sea.

Why do I talk to him like he's town sometimes? I don't. I do often talk to him like he's an investigator. I do this because a) if he's a cultist, his posts can be useful, and b) if he's an investigator who plans to go murderer, it's still in his interest to catch other scum, murderers and cultists alike.

[Seacore]

EPWOP:

To sum up, you have discovered no inconsistency.

[Seacore]

@mod: VasudeVa moved his vote to MoI prior to the last vote count

Noted and fixed, thanks ~Mod.

[Seacore]

My suspicion is that there are a bunch of people who want to distance themselves from what they perceive as an almost inevitable RC lynch.

Why would people want to distance themselves from it, unless it was a mislynch? Town should be vocal if they think it's a mislynch; scum would be quiet so as to not derail it. But RC can't be a mislynch AND still be worthy of your vote at the same time. It has to be one or the other. You can't lynch him as scum and then cast suspicion on the people who don't want to, unless you're suggesting that they're trying to not bus? But why would they try to not bus, if they think that it's "almost inevitable"? It makes no sense. There's something not quite right about this post.

I'm saying that I think there are a bunch of townies who have a feeling that we're wrong about RC (I disagree, I think we're dead on) but don't know where to put their votes. Maybe they have been beaten by the post count.
Yes they should speak up. I was trying to provoke them into speaking up.

I'm not trying to call them scum, I"m calling them anti-town because they aren't helping. Find a legit case to get on. No other options.

Nice cropping of my post by the way. I think when you look at it without the bits you deleted its pretty clear that I"m asking people to contribute, not calling people scum.

[Seacore]

In fact, the following people need to contribute immediately. And by contribute I mean either vote for one of the 4 main wagons

with reasons

or provide a case as to why their suspect is so much better than any of the likely wagons that it is worth staying on them.

Benmage
Lost Butterfly,
VP Baltar
manho
Andrius
Wickedestjr
hitorogoshi,
Wraith

[Seacore]

VV. MoI is scummy because he hasn't done anything scummy?

Or have I misunderstood.

Well, he's been bullying somebody, potentially with malicious intent.

Apart from that, no scum tells... but we couldn't expect many scum tells from somebody who is good at being scum...

yeah, not a strong argument.

[Seacore]

HEY MoI. GIT YO CULT BUDDIES TO WARD YOU AGAIN TONIGHT, AI'GHT?

MagnaofIllusion (Warded by Baby Spice and xvart) - Heard Noises (7), Did not Ward (7)

So which one is scum with MoI? Baby Spice or xvart?

[Seacore]

Superdupergutcall sez Baby Spice as MoI's Ward-buddy.

Seacore summed it up quite nicely.

Well, if you're looking for Tells, Passive Aggression sure hits the mark. I vaguely remember here being a thread somewhere in MD that was about that..or at least someone brought it up.

I'm not really a 'tell' player though, nor have I ever used tells. I detect intent by reading posts. Malicious intent be soarin' with MoI's ISO.

Well, I was mocking your case...

And I don't think you can blame anybody for being malicious towards Furc, he begs for it.

[Seacore]

I'm not going to bother responding to Benmage's points against me because they're either:

a) Already been answered by me before
b) Dumb
c) Willfully misinterpreting what I've said
d) some combination of the above.

If people think he's raised good points, feel free to ask the questions again.

[Seacore]

You know what will be the kicker..there will definitely be two kills tomorrow. Mine on fate and the cults...why would cult waste a nk?

Then why do it?

As LB has said, you're not in danger of being lynched. If you want to make yourself confirmed town, stalk somebody you actually find scummy, rather than on a personal vendetta, and help the town while confirming yourself as an investigator.

Not to mention, wasting a day doing another stalk, a fantastic way to prove you aren't trying to go murderer.

[Seacore]

You chose to gain that insanity when you stalked prior to obtaining any in game knowledge.

In short, that ship has sailed.

[Seacore]

I agree completely with Tom's points, with the following exception. An attempted murder does not clear Benmage, it confirms he's an investigator. But ignoring those semantics, the rest is true.

Benmage should not be the lynch tonight.

And Benmage should triple not kill Fate, because that's stupid.

[Seacore]

wrong choice manho.

Even if you've decided to not catch up, explain why you are voting that way.

[Seacore]

Look, Benmage is going to do whatever he's going to do,

But town have to play a long term game, and has Tom has pointed out, we're better off in the long run if we kill somebody other than Benmage, in my opinion: Reaper.

Somebody will almost certainly use a rez kit on Fate. All it takes is one rez kit to cancel out Benmage's idiocy.

Then cult are in the difficult position of trying to out guess town. Did more than one person use a rez kit? Did three? Should they gamble on two or less people using it and kill ritual fate for the effect it'll have on the game? or do they just kill somebody else, in which case Fate is still alive.

[Seacore]

Look, Benmage is going to do whatever he's going to do,

But town have to play a long term game, and has Tom has pointed out, we're better off in the long run if we kill somebody other than Benmage, in my opinion: Reaper.

Somebody will almost certainly use a rez kit on Fate. All it takes is one rez kit to cancel out Benmage's idiocy.

Then cult are in the difficult position of trying to out guess town. Did more than one person use a rez kit? Did three? Should they gamble on two or less people using it and kill ritual fate for the effect it'll have on the game? or do they just kill somebody else, in which case Fate is still alive.

Now I see why people think you're scum. First of all, there is no guarantee one of the few people with a rez kit are going to bother rezzing Fate. In fact, based on the cult's actions during SAII, I'm willing to bet that most of the cult has a Rez Kit. And no, we're not better off in the long run. Let me put it in math:

If we don't lynch Benmage, two people are definitely going to be killed tonight (whether they live or not is up to rezzers). Benmage will kill Fate, and the cult will kill a townie. That's two dead on night one MINIMUM, not including townies who lied and are going murderer.

Now, if we lynch Benmage, one person minimum dies tonight. For people who can't (or won't) read: 2-1=1. 1 is less than 2.

In short, the cult, however many they have, can only kill ONE townie a night. If we leave a murderer (Benmage) alive, then we lose TWO people tonight. To reiterate, ONE IS LESS THAN TWO.

THis town is TRYING to drive me insane, I swear.

@Benmage: The cult killing Benmage would not condemn you, in fact, as I've said, the town would "confirm" you if Fate dies. Funny how this is becoming circular logic. And no, I've said I don't think you're cult. I think you're anti-town and planning to murder a townie, and probably more townies in the future.

Actually Wraith, a lot of people think I'm scum for pushing what you're pushing earlier today. But I've changed my mind on that, and I think far more information will come from a Reaper lynch.

[Seacore]

Benmage, let me explain this to you for a second.

You are upset about getting an insanity for no reason.

Somebody is sure to rez fate, too many people have him on their town lists.
If you attempt to murder him, you will be gaining an insanity AND bloody for no reason.

Especially if you think the cult will not touch him!

[Seacore]

BENMAGE, FATE, STOP RESPONDING OR EVEN ADDRESSING EACH OTHER. YOU'RE JUST CLUTTERING UP THE THREAD WITH STUFF WE ALREADY KNOW - THAT YOU THINK EACH OTHER ARE CULT. STEP AWAY, TAKE A BREAK, COOL OFF, COME BACK IN AN HOUR OR SO, AND THEN ADDRESS THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WILL NEED TO READ THE 4 OR SO PAGES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN COMPILED TODAY.

QFT

[Seacore]

I'm staying on Reaper.

Somebody please Rez Fate tonight, he's obv town.
If somebody without a rez kit wants to stalk Benmage, I for one will not harass them about being an attempted murderer.

I do not have a rez kit. I'm only saying this because I've realised I've posted "I'm sure Fate will get Rez'd" about 5 times, and I don't want people to read that as a bread crumb.

[Seacore]

No Benmage, I'm hoping somebody stalks and kills you.


And Wraith, I have faith that somebody will rez Fate. I also believe cult could potentially kill Fate on top of that, so it's not One is less than Two.

[Seacore]

And if we rez him we'll postpone Benmage going murderer (IIRC) so we'll keep confirmed-town Benmage alive longer.

Incorrect. Attempts is what counts, not successes, in regards to gaining Psychopathy

[Seacore]

Here's a hypothetical fore you

Cultist A: RC, oh my god, you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. Go V/LA from the site for four days, and we'll see if we can swing another wagon in your absence

RC: Okay, good idea

[Seacore]

Wraith, all of your metaphors exist under the principle that nothing else is going on. So please stop posting them.

[Seacore]

Andrius raises an awesome point.

Wraith, if we let Benmage make his attempt and we get somebody to Rez it, we effectively disarm the potential murderer while saving a two townies!

That is why someone would have to be stupid to not rez Fate.

[Seacore]

@Seacore: Fine, let's factor it in:

You have a highly contagious, very deadly virus in a container. You have brought it into your house. At the same time, people are shooting at you inside your house. How is that a smart idea?

In the movies, viral apocalypses occur when someone says "oh don't worry, we can control it!"

Dont' be a twit.

[Seacore]

Hito: I'd like you to repost your Night 1 cheat sheet.

Can you also add, that over rezing Fate is a great idea. As it'll potentially neutralise cult's kill as well, or at the very least, keep them guessing?

[Seacore]

I will repost the Investigator's Reference in a bit here (with the Andrius change - speak up if you have any idea for other changes.) However, I think it might be better if Benmage murders Fate and NO ONE rezzes. The only way the cult can stop the "fate was murdered" message would be to Rez Fate themselves. cult using a rez kit > townies using rez kits.

Yeah, I can see your point on that. It all comes down to whether you think Fate is town or not. In my opinion he is town, and his feud with Benmage has just finally flicked a switch and he's not acting rationally anymore. Although I'll accept he's not as obv town as I felt he was before.

So maybe the advice is something like "if you think fate is town, rez him" cultists still won't be able to guarantee it and they may waste their rez kits anyway.

[Seacore]

What if we give you a clear shot with no townies rezzing?

I'd take it, lol duh.

You will not get all town to agree to this.

[Seacore]

What if we give you a clear shot with no townies rezzing?

I'd take it, lol duh.

You will not get all town to agree to this.

QFT.

And in fact, it doesn't matter. Benmage cannot be trusted to not kill either. So the whole thing still stands, just with even more double and triple guessing for town and scum alike.

[Seacore]

I can't believe you're still on this whole benmage not town route....but I guess cult need something to talk about to look town.

I don't trust you not to kill fate, even as town. I've seen you lie before as town.

[Seacore]

I can't believe you're still on this whole benmage not town route....but I guess cult need something to talk about to look town.

I don't trust you not to kill fate, even as town. I've seen you lie before as town.

Then lynch him, dammit. Prevent it before it's too late.

I'm going to say this one last time Wraith, I believe Fate will be rezzed at least once. Whether or not Benmage kills, there's confusion for both town and cultists. A single rez kit will remove the possibility of Benmage-murderer from the game.

I will no longer respond to any more of these comments from you, they're just inflating the thread count.

[Seacore]

*twitch*

CD2

Username:

Seacore

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who?

Yes, Triglav

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Yes, I got passed a fetish so I picked twitchy

List all of the insanities you currently have:

Twitchy

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result? (Note that these are both poor N1 choices.)

No

Twitch?

*twitch* indeed.

I'm mega busy at work for the next hour or so, I've seen some things in the posts that I want to comment on.

I have one question though

Mod:

This action will fail if your target has also been the target of Pass Fetish.

What does this mean? Since I have now been a target of Pass Fetish, does this mean no more fetishes of me can be crafted?
If so, was it possible for cultists to craft multiple fetishes of me during N0,?
Because if no more can be crafted, and it wasn't possible to craft multiple, then I'm immune to ritual.
And from a skim, it seems wraith is too.

I'll be back later in my work day when I have some spare time.

[Seacore]

Wraith, I'm almost certain that's not possible, based on the rule I quoted, so it comes down to the rest of my questions.

Also, I'm happy for both Fate and RC to be dispatched, with RC taking preference over Fate, since Fate's almost certainly town.

I haven't read thoroughly enough to see any plans, which is why I'm not voting for dispatches just yet.

[Seacore]

This action will fail if your target has also been the target of Pass Fetish

that Night

.

New question: Can a cultist craft several fetishes of the same person in one night?

No.

Okay so if Wraith and I are telling the truth, we're both immune to ritual during N2. Well that's something to be happy about. Wards for us tonight please.

[Seacore]

I have no clue the ins and outs of this game, but seacore how can you rationalize thinking pass fetish immunes you for the rest of the games.

Granted it would make it a dumber move for the cult, but that interpretation of the rule isn't game breaking. Particularly if cult were going to try and suggest I'm lying. Anyway, I just checked.

I'm down to rob grave...but if I have the most insanities....isn't it bad if I rob graves and add to them?

Your insanities are your fault, you'll finally do what is best for town and rob graves despite the huge insanitiy level it will give you.

[Seacore]

VP, if I read you correctly, you're suspicious of Wraith's fetish claim. Are you suspicious of mine?

I'm interested to see how many people claim they have received a fetish.

[Seacore]

During Day 1, El Goosuki posted this.

El Goosuki sends all his/her love to hitogoroshi for his guide to Investigators and baby Cthulhu picnic picture.

During N1, El Goosuki claims to have ignored this much loved guide and wasted a night action.

Vote: El Goosuki

[Seacore]

EBWOP:

Dispatch: RC
Dispatch: Fate

I'm happy with the plans invovled. Assuming we can deal with Furc bouncing between doing the job and not wanting insanities. I'm happy to grave rob if people wish, but I understand any reluctance to do so.

[Seacore]

Wait, seriously? I didn't even notice Wicked was murdered and rezz'd. Shit, that means we have two murderers to deal with and one would-be murderer.

@kinkstar, @xvart: opinions on the Benmage claim issue. Now.

Or he was ritualled and rezz'd

[Seacore]

xvart, the cultists would still have to waste some actions, which is a victory of sorts (albeit a minor one)

I think Benmage should offer 4 names. His target + 3 others.

[Seacore]

OMG, it's my scum day! Holy arsecrack this year has gone fast.

[Seacore]

Most of the people who are pushing for Benmage's death are doing so because they believe he's an investigator. (which he probably is)
Following that logic
If we kill Benmage today, we are definitely killing an investigator (albeit a fairly jerky one), to save an unknown
If we let him live he kills somebody he thinks is scum and we get to lynch somebody who we think is scum (i.e. El Goosuki)
So, definitely killing an investigator vs maybe killing an investigator + good lynch

On top of this, if Benmage goes through with his kill, he's had his one kill. That'll end all of this shit. If it doesn't, then we'll definitely kill him because we'll know he's going murderer. He knows we know this, so it's in his interest right now to aim at a good suspect.

For those who think I've changed my song since yesterday, two important pieces of information are different
1) Benmage has had a chance to read people's play before this stalk, therefore it's hopefully game based
2) He's now a day later into the game, it's harder for him to win as a murderer.

He doesn't get a blank cheque. But lets let him kill, and then make him rob graves from now until the end of time.

[Seacore]

@Furc's idea to not grave rob

That's stupid.
We need the flips. We need the flips desperately. That is the biggest tool in the scum hunting tool box.

More el goosuki votes please.

@Wraith, why is there a relationship between tnm and el goo? Forgive me, as I've been skimming

[Seacore]

We either lynch Ben now, or we become intensely comfortable with the fact that we've licensed a random NK. And then we wait for every other investigator who's under threat and decides his credibility needs a boost to kill at random.

Tom, I don't recall seeing 'precedence' as part of your argument before, but I'll admit I have been skimming.

To be honest, the precedence of this doesn't really bother me. Let's face it, all of the investigators are 1-shot vigs if they want to stay town, and we can't stop people from doing it.
Benmage has come out and said it, but it wouldn't surprise me if others do it over the next couple of days and announce themselves after the fact.

As for people doing a kill "at random" when they're under threat, lets break that down.

1) It will take 2 nights for somebody who is under threat to clear themselves. They need to stalk and they need to kill. And I'm assuming they're trying to clear themselves as not being cult, rather than being town. That just won't happen. Somebody who we think is cult should be lynched, no "let me live for two more days and I'll prove it". The Benmage situation is not that situation. Well, it's not that situation for anybody but AV.

2) "At random" - Benmage isn't killing at random. Assuming he's an investigator, he is town. You may disagree about how pro-town his action is being, but he's not going to be able to go for murderer because the win condition is distinctly out of reach. Someone could investigate him on Night 4 and make sure he's laundered. At which stage it will be N8 before he could win. We can off him, if necessary, well before then.
Similiarly, others aren't going to be killing at random if this ever did come up, if they are town, it's a vig. That's not random.

Lets move on and actually start scum hunting, but lynching El Goosuki.

@ Benmage - Have you responded to why you won't name 4 potential targets. I think that would benefit town, and do away with the argument that you are just hoping there's a murder tomorrow for you to claim was yours.

[Seacore]

EBWOP *by lynching El Goosuki

[Seacore]

@ wraith, thanks, I can see your point now. (on the tnm front). However, I agree that Benmage should not declare who his target is, because if he's right that it's scum, it'll not work, and if he's wrong, the kill will be more likely to go through, so that sucks.
And also, please stop saying the kill is at random, it isn't.

@ Benmage. I see no reason for you to not post a list of potential targets. I said 4, but 5 or 6 would be equally fine. If you are unwilling to do so, please state precisely why.

[Seacore]

Think about what town need to do during the day, and it should be obvious why the BenMage bandwagon is worth riding.

I agree with you. I think during the day, the town need to scum hunt, not try to mitigate a town member's night action.

I would like you to present some scum cases.

Because assuming that we were wrong on Fate and RC, and assuming that LB had the insanity point by innocent means, if we go through with the Benmage lynch like you want, it'll be Day 3 with at least 4, likely 5 investigator deaths before you start looking for cultists.

And a wagon like Benmage's isn't drawing cultists one way or the other, because we're almost certain Benmage isn't one of them.

[Seacore]

G-d help me but suddenly I'm liking Seacore a hell of a lot .

I win everybody over eventually.

And I don't just mean that tongue in cheek, games like cult of darkness and shadows, and PYP 1, I was a popular early lynch, managed to talk my way out of it, and by the end of it was obv-town. I often just come across scummy while I'm floundering on day 1. It's something that I need to work on.

[Seacore]

@Seacore: how is him claiming a list of targets in any way beneficial? Besides beneficial to scum I mean.

.....

Oh and I'm cult with El Goosuki because I actually bothered to think outside the box as to why someone would act like that rather than just jump on the vote. Good one.

Because of two things, which have already been spelled out, but lets go through it

a) It will put to bed any shred of Benmage being cultist. If he lists some potential targets, he decreases to pool of deaths he can claim were by his hands.

b) It will increase the chance, if he actually lists cultists, that cultists will waste their actions (not their rez kits as you suggest) on rezzing their buddies.

[Seacore]

EPWOP, oops I meant to respond to the second half of the quote.

El Goosuki is guilty because it's so easy to say "ooh this game is so confusing, I must have picked a poor night action by accident" And that's a great way to justify not having warded or picked up other equipment when you were passing fetishes, or warding your buddies.
I think El Goosuki forgot that one of their heads explicitly commented on Hito's helpful guide.

In short - Town El Goosuki, with three heads trying to work out an appropriate night action, should have remembered Hito's guide that they commented was helpful.
Cult El Goosuki decided that claiming confused would be a good method to hide their actual night action, and forgot they had fingerprints on Hito's guide.

Why would Town remember the guide and Cult forget the guide. Because the guide was meant for town, someone who was genuinely confused and trying to work out a good action should have gone to the guide. Cult discussed with themselves and the rest of the cult what good actions were, and screwed up on the fake claim.

[Seacore]

Tom's point is right, they are already targets of other potential murderers/investigators out there. Benmage outing himself to a potential murderer is not really what the town wants, we'd like Benmage to out himself to us. What's the murderer going to say "uh, that wasn't benmage, that was me doing the murder, lynch benmage" that also doesn't work because maybe it was a double murder.

@Furc's idea to not grave rob

That's stupid.
We need the flips. We need the flips desperately. That is the biggest tool in the scum hunting tool box.

More el goosuki votes please.

@Wraith, why is there a relationship between tnm and el goo? Forgive me, as I've been skimming

why is it stupid
why do we need multiple flips? we know LB is cult
are you claiming cult WONT ward the graves?

I'm so tempted to not bother talking to you furc.

We don't know LB is cult, please explain to me how we know that's the case?
If cult ward graves they are wasting an action (great for town) and are gaining another insanity on top of their ritual (great for town)
I want to know if LB was cult, I want to know if RC was cult, I want to know if who we lynch tonight is cult, I wouldn't mind find out whether Fate is cult.

[Seacore]

And this is precisely why we need the flips because we all disagree with each other, we need mod confirmed flips.

LB could have stalked either N0 or N1, LB could have been passed a fetish by the scum, LB could have used occult books (although granted, not a great move)

I'm the opposite of you, I think we'll get town flips from Fate and LB, and a scum flip from RC.

If we rob all 4 graves tonight, scum would have to burn 4 of the 7 actions to block them all. Otherwise we at least get some flips and we need them, or do you propose to just assume we lynch the right people?

[Seacore]

i'll agree with benmage not revealing his target then.

What about revealing a list of potential targets?

[Seacore]

Furc, that's a terrible idea.

I'm going to stop talking about it now, unless a bunch of people start agreeing with you, but it's just a horrible idea.

[Seacore]

What are our options Tom?

We kill Benmage and almost certainly hit an investigator, or we let him live and attempt to hit cult.

He's not going to be persuaded, nothing short of a lynch will stop him.

[Seacore]

Also, we did get a say in his kill.

Throughout Day 1, people were making cases. Ignoring those who died, there were cases on me, furc, MoI, xvart, among others. We all had an opportunity to say who was scummy, and at that stage Benmage chose his stalk target.

How is that any different to how vigging works?

Am I overjoyed that Benmage has set himself to take 3 insanity gaining actions right off the cuff? No. I don't like Benmage being on my team. But there's other stuff going on right now, like cultists not hanging from hemp. I'm not willing to kill Benmage and wait for Day 3 to start hunting cultists.
Fingers crossed, Benmage hits a cultist or a potential murderer. This conversation all goes away the moment he kills that target.


Preview edit: Have you played with Benmage before? Because I have.
If you get him to even L-1 you're unlikely going to make him reconsider. Especially when he knows lynching him is a bad move for town. He'll make you lynch him and then he'll blame you for it in the graveyard/post game. In the small chance that you do get him to "reconsider" he won't have actually reconsidered, he'll have lied. And we'll just be where we would be anyway, with the decision of whether to lynch him for lying.

[Seacore]

Furc, warding a grave doesn't matter in this situation. I think you need to go and read what warding a grave does, since you seem really confused by it as a concept.

Benmage can't claim a kill the cult did, because you can tell what kind of kill it was. Unless you're suggesting that he would say "somebody must have rez'd" in which case that person would come forward.

10 people would be too many to list as that's roughly how many people have unexplained noises during N1.

And you're suggesting that Benmage's most pro-town action would have been to lie to the town when he was asked explicitly "did you stalk, please list your insanities"

I think you need to look up "pro-town" along with the warding rules.

Finally, what do you think your vote on Benmage is doing? Are you willing to lynch him unless he provides the list? Because it doesn't seem like enough people are willing to lynch him for that alone.

[Seacore]

That kind of thought is a waste of time. You could have killed LB, I could have, anybody could have. Let's start looking at scum hunting rather than working out all the different possible combinations of actions.

[Seacore]

^^. Wrong. Investigate happens before Rituals/Murders.

You wouldn't be able to catch bloody scum N2 no matter what you do. Forensics are there for irresponsible lying bloody scum .

I had no idea. None of the three of us gave it deep thought, I guess.

If between 3 of you, you can't scum hunt and can't perform useful night actions (especially when you have agreed that Hito has produced a helpful list) then please replace out, because you are not helping town.

Fact is, this is almost exactly how I'd expect scum to act in a confusing game like this "You can't blame me for being a little lost, this game is complicated, so don't look closely at me"

[Seacore]

Random thought for everyone: let's say you knew you were the target of Benmage's stalk. What would be your reaction?

My first thought was that I'd just scum hunt extra hard, hoping that Benmage would see how obvtown I was and decide not to kill me.
Then I realised that nothing short of Mod Confirmation would stop Benmage from killing whoever it is he has decided is scum. So I'd just contribute as usual and wait for the mini theme I'm in the queue for to start.

Am curious why ElG apparently didn't read my guide. The idea behind posting a picture in the thread and making it stupidly obvious that a guide is here is so we can avoid the WIFOM game of "oh, I just didn't notice x". This would appear at first glance to be one of those, but do scum really get a large benefit by lying about an investigate? Or is this more likely to be a legit mistake? I'll need to think on it.

I think this is could be precisely why El G has claimed a crap night action. Because there is no specific gain in the claim itself, but it reinforces the image of a player that doesn't have a strong grasp of the game.

In other news, I'm being persuaded on kunk and slightly, ever so slightly on MoI. I'll have to re-investigate it, for a third time.

Sorry for the delay there. Was laid low by a combination of sickness and tests. (Also, I finally started reading A Song of Ice and Fire...I'm sure Faraday and Seacore can understand that timesink. :p)

Hehe, A Game of Thrones is bloody addictive. I like the later books more, but the first was probably the hardest to put down. If you read fast enough, you'll be ready for our next game.

[Seacore]

I would like El Goo to answer to our concerns, but assuming the answers aren't lynch worthy, I'd be happy with the plan to give wicked one grave to rob and the coin toss on laundering.
Of course, if they're both scum, we're screwed, but that seems likely.
Also, that won't clear El Goo, but it will decrease the liklihood, and that'll be enough for me.

[Seacore]

RC = Furc, [kunkstar7, MoI, El Goo, Wraith, Benmage, etc.]
Fate = VP, Baby Spice
LB = Wicked, Baby Spice
Lynchee = Hito, [kunkstar7, MoI, El Goo, Wraith, Benmage, etc.]

or however we decide to do it.

I approve of this, as long as it's recognised that Benmage has stated he will not rob two graves, and that i've stated that I don't believe Benmage can be swayed by threats.

[Seacore]

I agree with Trilo, I don't want to presume Fate's town, even though I'd be willing to bet money on it.

And if we're going to flip him, we should do it now for three reasons.

1) We have more townies than we'll ever have, so we can spread the insanities around easier than later
2) We'll just keep having more and more bodies to grave rob, so we might as well get it over with. If we dispatch him today we'll have 4 bodies. Tomorrow we'll have at least three plus fate if we wait..
3) Information now is better than information later.

[Seacore]

Fate is optional because we havent' dispatched him yet.

So tonight we currently have LB, RC and whoever we're going to lynch.

Tomorrow we'll likely have Benmage's victim, the cult's victim and whoever we're going to lynch.

Therefore waiting to dispatch fate is silly.

[Seacore]

I figured that was probably the one you forgot about.
I think graverobbing our eventual lynch target is the most important grave to rob.

[Seacore]

El G: what is the scummiest thing that MoI has done and why?

Someone said he was scummy and not very active, I forget who, I also recall he was on our dodgy player list yesterday for gut read. Most importantly, he's the only viable alternative to our own lynch. To continue being candid, our play has been so bad, we would probably scream for our own lynch if we didn't know our alignment.

-DGB

Are any of you attempting to actually contribute? Because if you aren't actually playing please leave the game.

[Seacore]

You are remembering wrong.

But it's not just anti-contribution in your case. DGB has admitted that you, as a team, have done nothing and look really scummy based on your actions. Basically agreeing that the case on you is enough to warrant a lynch.
If you are indeed town, just throwing a vote on a rival wagon and doing nothing else strikes me as injuring town. Particularly when, prior to my post asking for a replacement, your slot has made no attempt to get caught up. That's not just contributing less than others, doing nothing but appearing scummy.

[Seacore]

EBWOP: Also, my play in Rainbow Unicorn was terribad, not that I've improved much since then, but I've modded a large theme game and I've seen anti-contribution cripple town. A Clash of Kings, both Richard GHP and CSL.

[Seacore]

And on the offchance the cult chooses not to do so, you'll be almost-confirmed town.

Not sure I understood that bit. Not being passed a fetish is town confirmation?

Being communed and not passed a fetish = town confirmation, in the specific case of the two alleged rezzers.

[Seacore]

Yeah, MoI, ElG scum team is looking really plausible.

MoI ditches the ElG wagon when it started taking off, ElG votes MoI but then removes the vote.

And that line that spyrex has bolded is pretty terrible, I was still leaning MoI town til I saw that.

[Seacore]

People who quote instead of scum hunt piss me me off -

- Seacore, 2010

Benmage in particular, I'd like to see some scum reads please.

[Seacore]

That catchup thing might have to wait till tomorrow.

Lets move past this list discussion. Let me first be able to formulate a proper scum list via some more indepth proper scum hunting and then we can talk about a list...any list at the moment would be largely superficial mixed in with gut reads.

I didn't promise scum reads. You did.

However, since you've asked.

El Goosuki
MagnaofIllusion
manho
nopointinactingup
totallynotmafia
AurorusVox
Andrius

In roughly that order.

[Seacore]

I am so close to replacing out of this game, the amount of people that pride themselves on being good players and are flaking like crazy are pissing me off.

El G and Benmage, I'm looking specifically in your direction.

[Seacore]

I am so close to replacing out of this game, the amount of people that pride themselves on being good players and are actually asshats who are dumber than rocks are pissing me off.

Furcolow I'm looking specifically in your direction.

Fixed.

Oh no, I've fixed this. I don't read his posts.

[Seacore]

Apologies MoI, I really thought you had voted for ElG earlier in the day and moved from there to Vas instead of going straight there. My bad.
I still don't like your apparent deliberate abrasiveness, that doesn't strike me as something MoI-town, but your explanation has lessened my scum read of you.

People, lets get ElG's wagon to -1 or -2 and see if we can get a response.

[Seacore]

Could everybody not voting ElG please state why you don't believe they are scummy, when even they have admitted that they'd vote for themselves due to their behaviour?

[Seacore]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

No AV, terrible posts should be pointed out by whoever sees them

[Seacore]

@Wicked,

As I've said, I can kinda see the case on Kunk, but when I look closely at it, it doesn't seem too different from the way many people are playing. Tunneling and sheeping, to me, are less super tells in a game like this.

[Seacore]

@ El G, convenient wagon hop? Do you mean like when you jumped on MoI? I see little in your case on Nico that doesn't apply to you either more or equally.

[Seacore]

I'd like to make something clear.

The/My case on ElG is not that they are so stupid that they must be scum. It is that they are acting stupid but they have botched it, and they are therefore scum.

But why Seacore, why would somebody act stupid?

Look back at SAII and see how many people flew under the radar early, simply by not completely understanding the game. Look again at early SAIII, and see how many misunderstandings about the rules there were. In my opinion it would be easy to be seen as "not a threat, just snowed under".

Also, investigating somebody when you know investigation won't work is a great opportunity to hide something dodgy you've done either N0 or N1. "I couldnt' have been crafting fetishes N0, I was picking up an investigation kit". However, they crafted the fetish N0 and picked up the kit N1.

For people saying "but scum have QT, surely ElG would have been told something better to say"
I agree, however, scum aren't perfect and I believe this is their mistake. They missed ElG aknowledging Hito's guide. Night is a relatively short time to get night actions right, it would have been easy to gloss over specific claims.

In short, I'm not saying ElG is stupid, I've saying ElG has been deliberately acting stupid and has actually screwed up.

[Seacore]

Because as cult there would have been planning over night actions and such a useless action would have been thrown out the window. Basically why does a dumb move

have

to be scum motivated? I don't see it.

I just saw this and I think I can emphasise my point.

If manho or tnm claimed to investigate N1, I think they would have gotten away with it. Both could claim, "sorry, still not up with the rules".

There would have been a little fist shaking from the rest of us, pointing out hito had posted a guide, but it largely would have passed because of the page count.

So accepting that, scum could possibly have discussed claiming a crap night action as a good fake claim, along with searching for items, rezzing the ritual target and warding somebody. All I'm saying is they botched the night claim.

[Seacore]

Back, will catchup in detail but MoI's /proddodge AND Feysal's wasted vote are both awesome.

What about ElG's wasted vote?

[Seacore]

Could everybody not voting ElG please state why you don't believe they are scummy,

when even they have admitted that they'd vote for themselves due to their behaviour?

Anyone want to link me to this EG post?

El G: what is the scummiest thing that MoI has done and why?

Someone said he was scummy and not very active, I forget who, I also recall he was on our dodgy player list yesterday for gut read. Most importantly, he's the only viable alternative to our own lynch. To continue being candid, our play has been so bad, we would probably scream for our own lynch if we didn't know our alignment.

-DGB

[Seacore]

Night is approaching, so we need to organise our grave robs.

Can somebody please post two possibilities? A 3 grave possibility and a 4 grave possibility?

I think it's dumb not to flip Fate. More information is better, and tomorrow we'll be in the exact same position (or worse, if more people go murderer).

In other news I'm considering stalking a certain somebody, since I'm not very happy that the lynch is failing. But stalking should probably wait til a bit later in the game.

[Seacore]

Seacore's thoughts about graverobbing

Corpse dust

: I may be unpopular for saying this, but I don't think it's a big deal. For it to be a factor, we need to have somebody rez the ritual victim, and not two people rezzing the ritual victim. Or alternatively, 2 people and not 3 people. Also, a murderer needs to not attack that person, or whatever.
Do cultist want corpse dust? Of course.
Do we want to stop them from getting it? Of course.
Is it the end of the world if they do get it? No.

With that premise, I don't think we need to double up as much.

Wicked

: I think Wicked should grave rob twice, and I don't think Wicked needs to be backed up by anybody else, since he's the least likely to be cult.

@ Wicked, do you agree to this?

Furc

Furc should double grave rob. I'd be happier with Furc being backed up though.

@ Furc, do you agree to this?

Benmage

Benmage should single grave rob, I'd love him to double rob, but he's not going to agree to that.

@ Benmage, do you agree to this?

Somebody else

I'd pick someone I find scummy to do the last one, forcing them to gain an insanity point and making it harder to hide others. However, it seems most people don't find my scum list that scummy. Would people agree to making ElG do it?

So it would work something like this

Potential Graverob Roster

Fate - Wicked
RC - Wicked
LB - Furc and Benmage
Today's lynch - Furc and X

Thoughts?

[Seacore]

I have no objection to VP's list and system. I particularly like the idea of getting the second wagonee to grave rob.

I'm curious what people, VP in particular, think of my minimalist approach?

[Seacore]

Benmage will not rob two graves. However I'd be happy with him gaining extra insanities to make it harder for him to go murderer.

I don't think Furc is cult. I think furc is useless and would be happy to load him up with all of the town's necessary insanities, and to also make it hard for him to go murderer.

But to be honest, I'm happy with your system too.
As you said, yours is designed to shut down cultists and murderers,
Mine is designed to minimise insanities in the town.

Lets do yours.
We need to get people to publicly agree to the arrangement.

[Seacore]

Official Graverob Roster V.1

RC = Furc, 2nd Wagonee
Fate = VP, Baby Spice
LB = Wicked, Baby Spice
Lynchee = Hito, 2nd Wagonee

Please state whether you agree with this roster.

Furc, VP, BS, Wicked and Hito, please publicly agree to this roster.
MoI, Kunk and ElG, please also publicly agree to this roster, to state that you'll perform the 2nd Wagonee role should it apply to you.

[Seacore]

Benmage, the current proposal does not have you robbing at all, do you agree to the current proposal?

Tom, raises a good point about BS vs 3rd Wagonee, I'd be happier with that.

However, Tom, what possible reason could there be to dispatch Fate later, given we're going to have less town but the bodies are going to continue to pile up?

[Seacore]

I agree, but at the cost of two insanity points, I think it's worth finding out for sure.

[Seacore]

Hmmm, that's an interesting point...

@mod, can we get clarification on that?

[Seacore]

Sigh Furc, this is a team game, so please play with the team.

If Furc doesn't agree to grave rob the way we dictate, let's just leave him out of it and ignore him even more thoroughly.

And while I feel Hito is obv town, I agree with Tom's last point, Benmage makes a better option. It gives him more insanity points and he's almost certianly not cult.

[Seacore]

How about we swap Furc out and put Benmage in. I don't think Furc can be trusted to do anything.

[Seacore]

Okay, so,

Final Grave Rob Roster V2

RC = VP, 2nd Wagonee
Fate = Benmage, 3rd Wagonee
LB = Wicked, 3rd Wagonee
Lynchee = Hito, 2nd Wagonee

I've given in to Benmage's request to lynch Fate, I personally don't see the harm in letting him choose, particularly since he doesn't know who his robbing partner will be at this point.

If we decide not to dispatch fate, or can't swing the dispatch votes in time, then lets just have

RC = VP, 2nd Wagonee
LB = Wicked, 3rd Wagonee
Lynchee = Hito, 2nd Wagonee

It doesn't block out the 3rd wagonee, but it still up's their insanity count in an auditable way.