Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings to those I know – the player list is long enough that it is pointless to list you all.

Welcome to those I don’t. I look forward to getting to know you as we play this game.

I’ve reviewed the player list. Of those players I am familiar with the player I feel is most likely going to be a potential problem long-term for the Investigators (regardless of alignment) is Furcolow. This is based on direct personal experience and the end of Stars Aligned II.

VOTE: Furcolow

vote: kunkstar7

A quite stirring entry into the game. Bravo [/sarcasm off]

I HEARD NOISE.

Let’s review the hearing noise information -

Night Actions that target a character will often make noise. If your character is the target of at least one of Pass Fetish, Craft Fetish, Resuscitate, Investigate, Ward or Stalk, or if your character performs the Ward action, you will receive the message "You heard Noise in the night" upon the start of the next Day. You will receive the same message, even if multiple noisy actions target you.

Based on it being N0 the only actions that could possibly cause you to hear noise are as follows –

Targetting You – Craft Fetish, Ward, or Stalk
You targeting others – Ward

So if you are telling the truth and Warded someone else you can’t really mine that information.

I myself also Heard Noise and did not Ward. I don’t think at this juncture we are going to get a ton of information out of who heard noises. Anyone who didn’t hear noise might provide something to go on as those players (if telling the truth) can’t be the target of a NK action N1 and thus should not be protected via Resuscitate.

Anyone want to volunteer as to not hearing noises N0?

[MagnaofIllusion]

In regards to Hito’s questions –

1. This is my first Stars Aligned game, although I did read II in it’s entirety.

I also disagree that not claiming noises is net beneficial to the Investigators. The Cult already knows who they crafted fetishes for. At best the might have an idea what players not to craft fetishes for N1 (based on murder possibilities) but I don’t see that as a huge advantage for Town.

Anyone have another choice?

I think the players most likely to make the choice (as it is a tough road according to my read of SA II) are competent players who aren’t considered Top Tier players. You have to survive long enough to make at least 3 kills. There are at least 6 to 8 players on the playerlist who I don’t think stand a chance based on rep alone. I’d also keep an eye on Hydras simply because having another person to plan with is a huge advantage in planning out a Murderer path.

VV falls into the category I just mentioned but I am not certain, based on the post in the Sign-up thread, that he would have the guts to make that move. He certainly drew attention to himself making the statement you referenced.

I think it's still informative to claim if you heard noise AND ward targets,

Agreed.

Also, has Furcolow just been confirmed town?

Unless I am missing something in the desciption of Ward I see nothing preventing Cult from doing it - so No.

His eagerness to confirm himself is noted.

I warded El Goosuki
MoI pushing policy lynch D1 when it should be RVS is suspicious, but he's just mad I got him lynched in ReaperCharlie's mini theme 1000.

1. Why ward El Goosuki?
2. There is nothing suspicious about choosing to eschew making a cute RVS vote and going right to the heart of the matter with a serious one. Again it’s laughable that you keep trying to take credit for my lynch in that game since all you did was ride Kast’s coattails. And remind me again – which of us Won that game?

Facts are as follows – you are not a strong Town player. Your reaction here is evidence that you play from a reactionary, emotional standpoint. And likely people are going to give you a pass if you are Cult simply based on your VI playstyle, just like in Brave and Beautiful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Moi: I didn't send a ward in on El Goosuki, I sent one in on a player that must have /outted, but Percy, realizing I wanted to ward, did it on the next person alphabetically. I disagree that I am not a strong town player. You are comparing my town play to my scum play. My SCUM play is not strong. my TOWN play is strong because my scum play is so weak and obvious that it makes me very easily confirmable.

Confirmable = strength for an uninformed majority. Sorry to disagree.

Your statement regarding your Ward makes no sense.

1. El Goosuki is listed both on the initial player-list here and the player-list in the sign-up thread.
2. Percy has not indicated that anyone has replaced.
3. You are claiming that Percy chose to randomize your Ward action due to a non-existent replacement rather than PM you and tell you the player you chose had replaced out and to choose a new target.

In summary I’m not buying it. What player did you originally send in the Ward on?

It looks like you are Cult trying to pass off a Craft Fetish target that you or one of your cohorts successful targetted as a Ward target to me.

As to your Town play being Strong – I saw it up close in Harry Potter Mafia. It was anything but strong so your whole rambling statement there is null.

As a result of your continued push based upon recent evidence that I am town, I'm going to:
Vote: MoI,
until he unvotes me, as I feel I am as close to being confirmed after a N0 as is humanly possible unless someone decided to admit they stalked someone and kill them tomorrow.

I’ve yet to see evidence you are Town. I love the threat here – I’m not moving my vote til you unvote me. That's fine with me.

Your attempt to assert you are clear reminds me of your insistence in Brave and Beautiful that you were confirmed Town for bussing your partner millar13.

My vote will stay where it is, thank you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I just want to say that

just once

, I would like to see furcolow NOT lynched on Day 1.

He is often a valuable asset to the town if left alive. Not to mention an unlikely nightkill.

Sooooo as a personal request I would like you guys to unvote him. It's just his style.

The first sentance piques my interest - I know for a fact that in Harry Potter Mafia and Brave and the Bold Mafia (which you played in or modded) Furcolow was not lynched Day 1. So why are you trying to assert that he is ALWAYS lynched Day 1?

Nothing personal RC but your personal request holds no water with me unless he can explain the inconsistency I am seeing with his Ward claim.

Your defense of him is noted, however.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also Furc needs to clear up the ward issue, but based on what he's told us, his target can confirm whether or not they heard noise.

Here's my problem with that - if he is Cult fake-claiming Ward all he has to do is claim to have Warded someone the Cult successfully crafted a fetish of. His claimed target is very likely to have heard noises. If they didn't its even a dumber gambit than I thought it might be. And with Daytalk Cult certainly can coordinate that even if Furc didn't Craft himself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I sent in Ward: Drippereth, for the record

Why? He wasn't listed on the player list either in this thread or the in the Queue thread.

Are you telling me when choosing your actions you didn't bother to actually look at the player list? This doesn't bolster your argument that you are strong as Town.

@MOD - Your rules state that if no action is sent in by the N0 deadline the player in question will Cower. Does this apply to invalid actions (ie sending a Ward in on a player not in the game)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So since I didn't hear a noise I wasn't passed a fetish, and can't die tonight?

Correct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To everyone claiming that Fur is 100% cleared – you are deluding yourself.

El Gooski only confirms that he was targeted by some action. It does not guarantee that action was a Ward. It can just as easily be a Craft Fetish action.

The whole Fate versus Benmage spamfest is really making my brain hemmorage.

Suicidal...the oneless vote one.

Really? What motivated you to take the insanity that makes it easier to lynch if you are planning to stay Investigator?

I heard noise, which is kind of disconcerting. I think I'm probably a likely target to die early based on my performance last game...which would piss me the hell off since I've been looking forward to this game for awhile now.

As someone who routinely dies well before his time I feel your pain.

I'm kind of curious, so do you think eliminating cult or potential murderers is more critical on Day 1? Why?

Actually given what we know about the Craft Fetish mechanic based on the number of noises that are heard we can make a rough approximation of the number of Stalks that happened. So while not scum-hunting it might be worth some discussion of suspects that Town should look direct their Night actions.

I have been thinking about it, and I feel MoI would push me regardless of alignment, because he is wrathful

In the future things will go smoother if you’d cut out the rhetoric. What reason do you have to call me wrathful?

Sorry that you hate me, but I am honestly town, and you kind of even admit it.

Don’t flatter yourself Furc. I don’t hate you. Hate is reserved for people I know in real life who do egregious things to my friends and family. You are a faceless blip on a monitor. You are not worth hate.

How can I admit you are Town if I have no idea about your alignment again?

Furthermore, since I didn't hear noise last night, and am an investigator, you all need to keep me alive even moreso. I doubt I will be night killed or even passed a fetish, and I feel I am more confirmed than most.

This is why I don’t think you are going to be an asset to Town, regardless of your belief you are confirmed.

1. If you didn’t Hear Noise you can’t be nightkilled. Period.
2. Having a fetish passed to you will do what again? It will give you an insanity. It will not kill you, at least in the short term.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I find Spyrex’s analysis of AV to be compelling, in that I would like to subscribe to his newsletter.

I would have changed my vote but then saw the following from the Mod –

@MOD - Your rules state that if no action is sent in by the N0 deadline the player in question will Cower.

Does this apply to invalid actions (ie sending a Ward in on a player not in the game)?

Yes it does.

This response says to me that Furc’s statements are bullshit but I’ll ask a more detailed followup before I start the crusade for his Cult head –

@MOD – Would a Night action directed at Drippereth (a Hydra player not in the game) would result in a Cower action, not a Night action directed towards other Hydra player who common players with Drippereth?

Question to both xvart and Magna: what do you think of Furcolow now that the discrepancy between ward targets is explained? Still a viable mislynch scum?

According to Mod’s post above I think he’s Cult. Because as I read Percy’s explanation it says Furc would have Cowered. As stated I’m waiting for further confirmation because El Go apparently includes all the players of Drippereth.

Rewq’s 230,

as others have pointed out, is terribad since it ignores the Ward blocking Ward mechanic and also whiffs on the fact that Rob Graves is a free action.

I also warded.
Chose MoI basically at random since I have played with virtually no one here unleesss they are in a hydra and I have not seen theem. After looking at the action summary in SA I it seemed to be the best optiooon for me.

BabySpice I don’t know you from Adam but this post (if you aren’t fucking with me) made my Day. I fully expected to fed to a Tentacled Monter from Beyond or gutted by some lunatic tonight in following with my tradition of biting it Day 1 of Cool Large Theme games.

Love this post. HAHA. But vote Seacore, we'll win a lot easier with him gone.

Glad you love the post. Looks like an attempt to make sure I caught Trilobite’s vote on me to make sure a conflict arises on your part Reaper. Noted.

BOO HOO. CRY ME A RIVER BUILD A BRIDGE AND GET THE F%$& OVER IT.

The Million Dollar question here Reaper – why attack Bowser on this point when the Mina half of Lost Butterfly SAID THE EXACT SAME THING? Selective arguments for the loss?

Combine these with the whole ‘Woe is me I’m going to diez’ post made much earlier and my read on Reaper is swinging towards Not Town.

But if then the Cult can't pass a Fetish of that player or kill that player the next Night without exposing the lying claimed-Warder. It's not confirmatory, but it's a bit more risky for Cult to fake than you might think. EDIT: Feysal saw that too. Why didn't you, MoI?

I can see that Plum. The question I have to you is this – what harm does it cost the Cult to delay killing El Go one Night? From my reading of the Cult rules for Fetishes once crafted they go into a pool that are only disappear when used. And based on conservative estimates I’d guess the Cult has at least 6 to 10 fetishes to work with for Night Targeting.

Scum or idiot or both?

Same question to you as to Reaper … why is Bowser a scum or idiot for broaching the force replacement angle but Lost Butterfly (Mina portion) is not? Inconsistency is something I don’t like.

MoI address post #180 (if you want to do something useful)

I love the condescension … it really suits your play to a tee.

1. Participating in the Ritual is a free action according to Percy’s Page 1 rundown. So even if they didn’t have a Rez kit they would be free to do other actions like Crafting and Passing Fetishes.
2. Even if they weren’t able to Ritual and do another action saving a member is a no-brainer. Cult has a limited pool and each loss hurts them long-term. The fewer the members they have the less ability they have to do things like Rob Graves to attempt to blend into Town.
3. Crafted Fetishes are place in a Pool to be used by the cult as a whole. So even if two cult members looked for Rez kits and each other member only crafted 2 Fetishes that’s 10 (before any Wards) which should gives them plenty potential targets to work with.

In summary your 180 is a superficial look at the situation. Not very impressed.

2) I feel as if I understand the game completely, or moreso than others, however, even if not completely

This quote on the heels of 180 I find amusing.

my one liners are coupled with posts of awesomeness and content

Didn’t I see you post in some game recently that one-liners were indicative of your scum game?

This is my first one of these....I don't expect to make it to endgame.

I’m not even talking about endgame considerations. Taking that Insanity makes it easier (if only barely at first) for Cult to effect a mislynch with you as the target. That’s my issue with your choice. I know you feel confident and all that you aren’t going to be lynched but it was a bad choice IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not much time right now for a full response post since my last but I’ll say this.

Furc

– You story just doesn’t add up. You submitted a Night action in the game without bothering to confirm said player was in the game even though you admitted that you stopped reading the sign-up thread at some point after Drippereth posted. If this is the case you would have NO reason to know that Drip was officially in the game. Your explanation of other factors spirals downhill from there.

And finally another little bit I’d like to add –

You are someone who prides themselves on responding quickly in thread (especially given your little tantrum against those of us who don’t live on MS i.e. have actual lives in which you called us 'scared') here is the sequence of events / posting between us when I started to question your claim

1:36PM site time – I question why you warded El Goosuki.
1:40PM – You respond saying the action wasn’t on El Goosuki and must have been on an outed player.

1:59PM – I ask you who your originally Warded.
2:41PM – You come back saying you Warded Drippereth.

It certainly could be a co-incidence and there is no way to prove you weren’t away from the computer. That said looking at the manner in which you respond to things the 42 minutes it took you to simply say “I warded Player X” looks like you had to confer with your Cult partners for a good explanation.

To paraphrase DGB

– To simply state who you took action on take seconds, to concoct a fake target takes a lifetime.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: I stopped reading the signup thread AN HOUR before they morphed into El Goosuki. AN HOUR.
I waited FORTY TWO MINUTES to respond to you? Big deal. Your only case on me is time? I have all the time in the world.

The fact that you trying to represent that case against your claim is ONLY based on timing is laughable. Really, comedy gold right there.

The point, which you are missing, you are proving with your spamtastic responses right now. When you are online (which appears to be much of the day) you respond immediately to questions / attacks on you.

Naming who your original target was should take about 5 seconds of typing.

Yet it took you 42 minutes to post that one line. Given your playstyle it gives me the impression that you had to either run to the Cult QT to get advice or go looking through the sign-up thread.

But for the record here is the sequence of events surrounding your claim that makes me believe it is suspect –

1. You claim to have Warded El Goo. No mention at all regarding the change-up of targets.
2. I question why you chose El Goo.
3. You say El Goo wasn’t your original target. You don’t name the target in this post. You say that Percy must have just changed the target based on your intent. You make NO mention of clarification email from Percy.
4. I ask you who you did target originally.
5. You say Drippereth who never appeared on any version of the Player roster.
6. MOD confirms that a botched target (a player not in the game) would result in first a PM from him and if not corrected a Cower action.
7. MOD confirms that he would accept Technical Errors as valid (ie Forensic Kit versus Forensic Tools) but would clarify Ambiguous choices via PM.

I don’t believe that Percy would not have PMed you saying Drippereth is not in the game. You have basically admitted that this never happened. I believe chosing Drippereth as a target, regardless of whether said Hydra is similar in construction to El Goo, would be Ambiguous and not a Technical Error.

Thus I believe you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

I could be a bastard and throw in some rhetoric like “DIE CULTS SCUM DIE” that you seem so fond of but I will take high road on that.

Yes, the above line is 100% sarcasm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MagnaofIllusion, players who did not hear noise can still be NK'd. Wickedestjr played in Star Aligned II and he did not hear noise for Night 0, Night 1, or Night 2. He was night-killed Night 3. So yes, you can be Night Killed without having to hear noise.

Stars Aligned II has little to do with this game SSBF. The rules, as provided by Percy, do not support your assertion.

To be killed by the Ritual the Cult has to have a Fetish of the target player. Target player must hear noises when successfully targeted by Craft Fetish.

To be murdered the target player must be Stalked. The target player must hear noises when successfully targeted by Stalk.

Per Percy’s admission there are NO hidden mechanics in the game.

So the only two ways in which someone can die have pre-requisites that if successful cause a targeted player to hear noises.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't like that he seems to be tunnelling Furcolow. Until Plum called him out on it, all that he posted was directly related to Furcolow. I do not think that Furcolow is clear (as I have said, I treat "clear" as an absolute/binary value) but

I have acknowledged that for Furcolow to be lying about warding would require a substantial amount of luck on his part for him to have NOT been caught out by mod-rules

. MoI, on the other hand, seems to have disregarded this strand of the argument entirely, and keeps looking for loopholes to maintain his vote.

The bolded portion is either bad logic or complete bullshit. Not sure which.

How exactly would Furc be caught by the Mod rules fake-claiming a Craft Fetish target as a Ward again? If you are referring to the early game change by Percy that stated Ward did not cause a player using it to Hear Noises I’ll ask you to address the following assertions –

For Furc to be caught by the rule change he would have to have scrupulously prepared his fake-claim and carefully studied the rules. As the rules were set-up before the change by Percy Ward was the only listed ability I see that causes the User to hear noises. Thus to run afoul of this Furc would have carefully crafted his fake-claim with this in mind.

Furc’s self-stated assertions in thread that he

1. Did not bother to read the player list when choosing an action.
2. Didn’t bother reading his N0 role/action PM closely before choosing an action.

Indicates he’s not going to have planned and researched in advance IMO.

On the other hand based on Stars Aligned II, which he played in and read, if winging his fake-claim he would likely assume Ward operated in the same manner in this game.

I considered those assertions and don’t find them very compelling. For Furc to be not 'caught' by the change doesn't require 'luck' but him to play in the manner he alwasy does. Feel free of course to disagree. I certainly do with your conclusion that Percy’s most recent posts indicate that Furc sending an action on Drippereth would be considered anything but Ambiguous.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If he assumes that Warding will make him hear a noise, as that is how it operated in the previous game, then why would he say that he didn't hear a noise? If he was really lying about his actions, he would have said that he DID hear a noise.

This part made me actually read the rules from Stars Aligned II again. I have been working under the assumption that Warding did not cause the Ward user to hear noises in that game and the original presentation here was new.

I was incorrect. Thus the argument that Furc likely did Ward does seem logical. If that’s the case the only problem with his claim is the Drippereth issue which based on reactions from multiple players can go either way.

Well fuck then. I can’t continue to believe Furc is Cult based on the claim if I may be wrong about Percy’s thought processes, regardless of how stupidly Furc acted.

UNVOTE: Furcolow

I really need to re-read now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Besides, why say something twice when there is only need to say it once? (that isn't to say that I don't like to repeat myself, but... yea)

This isn’t an answer. Regardless of whether you don’t want to repeat you chose to lambast the Hydra that I consider having of a weaker player (CSL) as opposed to the Hydra that has two strong players (Mina and Faraday). Bowser is an ‘easier’ target than Lost Butterfly so the inconsistency on your part appears as it might be opportunistic.

splain

I did in the original post. Do you want a flow chart or something?

Trilobyte made an unsupported vote for me. I saw it and ignored it. You quoted it with no real reason other than to tell them to vote Seacore. You could have done that just by saying “Hey Trilobyte – vote Seacore”. Thus I have some concerns about your motives for doing so.

Finally

@Reaper

– I’d like your opinion on Furc’s claimed scum. His current targets seems to be Lost Butteryfly, Fate, BabySpice and Seacore mostly because they have recently disagreed with them.

@Hito

– In general I think your list of Banned Insanities makes reasonable sense. Hallucination I find the least problematic but have no objections to it being there.

@AV

– Your response to Spyrex’s 351 at 492 is underwhelming.

Yeah its an insane theory, but two scum for the price of one would be pretty epic.

The most insane part of your theory is that you only are saying it would catch 2 scum. Your theory would identify Furc, El Goo (who would have to be Cult to be posting in the QT, duh) and myself as Cult so you would be catching three.

And the person in point 7 who asked about the clarification was me.

Love Percy's answer on Sadism. Would be willing to help engineer this situation for lulz.

So you would like to essentially wreck the game that Percy spend copious time putting together and many players have looked forward to for a long time simply for the lulz?

MagnaofIllusion's first post bothers me a little. He claims we won't get a lot of information out of hearing noises. I agree with that, but what bothers is that he then asks for volunteers for people who did not hear noise. I'd like to know from him if we'll gain more information from asking for volunteers for people who did not hear noise then people who did hear noise and if not, what is his purpose for doing so.

I had made a quick mental calculation and assessed that it was likely that Cult could have crafted a large number of Fetishes if they wanted (Wards not-withstanding) and thus was hoping that we could get a relatively small pool of not ‘hearing noises’ that might contain a disproportionate number of Cultists. As the thread developed it became apparent that this was not going to happen.

Mutilation could be good for certain players. If someone specializes in resuscitating, that player is probably going to be bloody often anyway.

Actually Rez kits are destroyed if you are bloody and cannot be searched for if you are under that condition so this isn’t a good reason for Mutilation to be a viable option.

I dislike having an inactive vote so my vote with go to

VOTE: AV
Spyrex's cases on you are very compelling and I've yet to see anything out of you that significantly refutes them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did Ellie just put me on the bad people?

PLUM TOO?

THOSE ARE SOME SHIT READS.

Are you shocked that a Hydra with Elli in it would produce a perfectly crappy gut read list? If so go read Clash of Kings and get back to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think those were DGB.
AND BE QUIET MAGNA
I GOT PERCY, IDOUGT, YOU, XVART, AND SOME OTHER GUY RIGHT IN THAT ONE.

Funny how revisionist history works. Despite 'getting' all those people you never pushed for any of them to be lynched (none on that list were ever lynched) and instead went after weak targets like Kleedrac. Day 1 you consistantly listed Percy on your TOWN lists that disappeared after you 'cleared' Raivann of being scum Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To everyone in regards to looking at “Locking Down’ suspected Cult / Murders with Graverobbing down the line –

I suggest, before committing to this course of action that we consider the new Ward mechanic before assuming it will be as easy as in the previous game. The Cult’s ability to prevent a grave from being robbed with Ward makes ‘confirming’ that suspected Cult or Murderers more difficult. As an example a player is tasked with robbing two specific graves at Night. The player is robs one as informed by flips. Player says he was blocked from robbing the second. Now the dilemma begins for Town.

The can be somewhat prevented by having two players rob every grave but it is far from fool-proof.

On to direct discussion –

What, do you want a flow chart or something?

Nope, I don’t need one. I’ve seen Scum ReaperCharlie and Town ReaperCharlie operating up close and personal in Large Theme Games (ooba’s Mad World, Supernatural Mafia, Harry Potter). And guess which ReaperCharlie I’ve seen that’s borderline obnoxious about his ‘Town’ cred and likes to argue with me? Hint – it wasn’t the Town ReaperCharlie who was lurkeresque and made almost no contributions Days 1-3. So yeah I’ve to a gut read that doesn’t say ‘Shining Beacon of Towniness’ to me. Can I be wrong? Sure as gut reads based on direct experience aren’t strong evidence. That’s why I’m actually looking at what you are saying as opposed to following the ‘In Crowd’.

AV's 568 is pure win.

I could sheep that.

Seacore can wait. As long as he still gets lynched at some point, I'm cool.

So you’ve spent all the time previous to this basically throwing rhetoric that Seacore is obvscum and must be lynched and WHAMMO we get this? I think I’ll file your gut reads under “Smile and Nod Politely but generally Ignore the Ranting Man” for the moment.

Regarding Seacore

– In looking at his ISO the one thing that makes me wonder about his possibilities as Cult is his rather strong insistence that we not conflagrate Town with Investigtors. The point is true, long-term, but currently the only existent threats to Town are Cult. Its possible that the Murderers in the last game that royally screwed Town are weighing on his mind but it is troublesome to me. He’s in the second Tier I’d vote for behind AV.

Regarding xvart

– The lateness of his admission of who he Warded, combined with his target being already selected sets my scumdar mildly tingling. His explanation on why he chose me is reasonable but the fact that I’ve already been Warded by BabySpice makes me somewhat concerned.

@xvart

– aside from Furc who are your top Cult reads at this juncture?

A number of folk seem to be keen to do it for much less...

Mom the other kids were chucking bricks at cars on the highway … what did you expect me to do not join in?

That’s a moronic reason to want to scuttle the game.

Something is off with MoI's #542. It reads a LOT like buddy distancing, especially since they're like OMGUS voting each other here. In this wall, he only mentions AV twice -> "Your response is underwhelming" + "SpyreX's case is compelling.". MoI doesn't read like his usual aggressive self..

You think I’m not playing aggressively when any number of people have attacked me for being too aggressive regarding Furc? Cool story bro.

Although I know I will regret this come Monday morning –

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from now until Monday morning for normal family weekend duties. I will have enough access to read the thread but will not be wall-post responding.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Catch-up post incoming –

Regarding plans being staged for the Night

– I think that Hito’s list of players at risk and claims name immediately Day 2 are the best extent we can try to plan. An inordinate amount of text has been devoted to planning complicated methods by which Benmage can confirm himself via killing Fate and Fate can be saved. All are based on incomplete or inaccurate information (for example many of the Benmage kills Fate who is rezzed plans hinge on Fate being able to say for certain he was murdered, which Percy’s 815 clearly indicates is wrong). Any player with a Rez kit can decide what players on the ‘At Risk’ list are worth saving. Making some complicated plan out in the open just allows the Cult to find a hole in the plan and act to thwart the plan or cause the outcome to be confusing for Town if possible.

On the Topic of Cult re the Furc Fiasco

– I’ve seen multiple people make statements that anyone who questioned Furc’s status as Investigator past Page 3 (or some other arbitrary point) and I disagree completely. Furc’s explanation for his actions and general play were scummy and obscuring regarding his alignment. I’m going to suggest what I always think in circumstances – you are more likely to find Cult hiding among those people who are steadfastly assured of Furc’s innocence immediately despite his play (even before rule changes and responses from Percy), since the Cult would know he is an Investigator. ReaperCharlie, VV and VP Baltar are players who come to mind immediately.

This game is crushing my will … seriously.

Yellow reads does irritate me.

VOTE: AurorusVox

Ok Captian Randompants why AV as opposed to xvart or BabySpice who at the time each also had 3 votes?

I should grave rob because I am awesome and town, and (as I already said) I'm a shining beacon of hope and sanity.

And if you are an Investigator who is planning to go Murderer the bonus of sniffing out your competition has nothing to do with it huh?

And once again I see your claptrap regarding being a Beacon – me thinks thou does protest too much!

I do have a question for you, though: What would you think if you rezzed Fate tonight, but Benmage was dead by morning?

Hey look who isn’t paying any attention to their ‘actual’ scum-hunting. Benmage CAN’T die since he didn’t hear noises. And unless you can come up with a compelling reason why ANY alignment would lie about it then there is no way this hypothetical is coming true.

In the last game you could rob two graves per night. That's how we shut down so many of the murderers. I think this is still the case in this game except now Percy included Ward to block Rob Grave as well. This means that someone can be prevented from robbing a grave and thus it cant' really be used as a roleblock action anymore. That's why I said in the sign up thread that the rules have moved more toward favoring scum. Makes it more difficult, but what can you do I guess.

Given your ranting about the thread being filled with useless and redundant information why did you feel the need to basically repeat what I said at the Top of post 713?

@ xvart and MoI - What do you think of Lost Butterfly? Do their conflicting posts bother you?

Given that there was significant confusion (generated by Furc himself) regarding his claims I don’t find their conflicting posts inherently scummy. Mina’s posts do generally read to what I would consider her Town meta. I don’t really have a Faraday meta that I can identify so overall I have a Neutral leaning Town read on the slot.

[qutoe="Furcolow"]I believe you're town, but you need to take your own advice.[/quote]

Wait, weren’t you just calling Fate scum in this same post for calling other players Town and not using the words probably or if? Are you being hypocritical or are you going to fall back on the whole “I’m confirmed” bit to explain your inconsistency.

It doesn't matter what other people think. What matters is I'm seeing some indications that your Furc-agressiveness may have been faked, and now that Furc's near-unanimously believed to be Town, you're looking for something to do. So you follow on Spy to vote on AV. However, the problem is that lacks the usual MoI Town-aggression I've seen before~. It reeks of buddy distancing, I tellz ya.

If you can point to the indications that my pursuit of Furc was faked then do so. Otherwise you are just throwing rhetoric. Hey I can do that to –

I’m seeing clear signs that VV is Cult faking his scumhunting. He just doesn’t seem like the VV I’ve seen before.

See how useless that is? And care to point to a specific game where you saw my Town-aggression? Because I don’t think we’ve played in many games together if my memory serves.

Can you go over why you think Spy's case on AV is good?

AV’s early fence-sitting on Furc as highlighted by Spy is accurate, IMO. Once the tide shifted suddenly AV jumped on the ‘Furc is Obv-Town’ wagon and is trying to take credit for being the first one there. Sorry, not flying with me. And his posts since then have almost all revolved around game mechanics as opposed to scum-hunting.

Nah. MoI is scummier, fo srs. I mean, have you seen that vote hop? It was like, woah.

1. So vote-hopping is inherently scummy?
2A. If Yes why aren’t you also calling to task any number of the other players who have made similar votes?
2B. If NO it is not how am I scummy for it?
2C. If the answer is ‘It Depends’ vote yourself as you are a terrible fake-scumhunter and thus Cult.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wait, I thought the Cult could kill each night regardless of stalking.

Fetishes give people extra insanities, and the Ritual kills 'em, right?

DERP. I’m pointing to this post to show the sudden shift in Reaper’s play. Before this he was the “Shining Beacon of Town”, making ‘astute’ observations and credible posts. Now he’s suddenly under fire and he suddenly is trying to revert to his “Lazy Town” meta which I pointed out 713. Change of playstyles based solely on pressure? Scumtastic. I’d give a perfect example but it is [REDACTED].

Whoever is calling me scummy, i.e. Seacore, Vas, Magna, (& Co.?), SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIMS.

WHAT HAVE I DONE THAT IS SCUMMY THIS ENTIRE GAME.

OOHHHHHH WAIT THATS RIGHT.

YOU IDIOTS.

Rhetoric and lack of explanation regarding the inconsistency Triglav has REPEATEDLY requested you address noted.

Seriously don’t try to play the “Prove it to me” game with me.

I’ve pointed out why I think you are suspect. Town RC doesn’t proclaim themselves the Town Beacon Day 1. Town RC has to be prodded to provide content. Scum RC loves to establish himself as the center of attention if perceived as clear or Town.

The fact that you suddenly are playing the Lazy Town card this late into the day when you’ve had no trouble finding and keeping up with posts before this (when pages were flying fast and furious) plays very false.

The fact that you’ve spent as much time gathering your “Town Team of Awesomesauce” this early in the game and the majority of your scum-huting has consisted of “Seacore is Scum LOLOL” doesn’t make me think my gut is wrong at this stage.

Oh yeah, since your panties are so in a bunch.

UNVOTE: AV
VOTE: ReaperCharlie

ISO #0: You attacked Furcolow because he was a potential problem. I really disliked this because I see you as a player who likes to read people, not just
ISO #4: You're saying that Furc is Cult fakeclaiming ward on a Craft Fetish target. Horrible attack. Ward protects someone who was CF'd, therefore no Fetish will be made. This reads to me that you're just saying this to make your vote seem justifiable.
ISO #9 and #10: Some shit about El Goo and timestamps. More horribadness, to make Furcolow implode, thinking that you can get away with such horrible fluff attacks that really don't mean anything.

ISO 0 – I believe Furcolow will be a detriment to Town long term. Fact. After seeing his Town performance in Harry Potter and his Scum performance in Bold and the Beautiful I don’t believe he will help Town regardless of alignment. Period. Look at the amount of votes he’s made today, the number of times he’s declared to have ‘caught scum’ only to abandon those reads, and the number of reads he’s flip-flopped on (Fate as a prime example). I very much doubt based on past history and his current contributions that he'll be instrumental in actually getting Cult lynched even if his mercurial reads are correct. Not sure what you intended to say after “not just”.
ISO 4 – What in the hell are you trying to say here? Back there I posited that Furc could be passing of his own crafting of a Fetish on El Goo (which would cause El Goo to hear noise) as a Ward (which would also cause El Goo to hear noise). You attack that states the Ward would prevent a Fetish is factually correct but doesn’t even apply to my argument.
ISO 9-10 – If you don’t think that it is odd that suddenly Furcolow, who reacts with the speed of a diabetic hummingbird to accusatory posts, took that long to respond with the simple statement as to who he actually sent his protect in on I don’t know what to say. Certainly nothing fluffy about it.

You know, stuff.
Sort of Town game
Real Town game

I like to stalk people. I was arguing here that your vote of AV didn't seem like you. I'm not so sure about AV's alignment, but this vote was just about as lazy as you can get: Hide a vote in a wall. You have mentioned AV twice in your vote post and you didn't even bother to say more than 'Your response is underwhelming' and 'I agree with SpyreX'.

So you linked to Mega Man Mini 1008 as an example of a game I’m ‘Sort of Town’ in despite the fact that I didn’t play in that game?

And you linked to Personal Agenda Mafia as an example of a game where I was ‘Real Town’? Despite that fact that I was a 3rd Party Jester?

For someone who likes to stalk you do a craptastic job of it. When you find a scum game of mine that demonstrates me doing what you are suggesting here we can talk. Otherwise I’ll just assume you are being your regular, fairly incompetent self here (Advance Wars Mafia anyone?).

1. Nope!
2B. I disliked HOW you voted for AV because it was super lazy + your fake attacks on Furc.

Oh, you dislike it. Ok. When you can demonstrate scum motivation and history for it come back and see me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ISO 4 - No. It doesn't make sense for Furc-scum to fakeclaim 'Craft Fetish' as a 'Ward'. Because if he DID ward El Goo, El Goo shouldn't die from a Ritual(barring future nights of CF-ing but that's another story and it can easily be cross checked through claims.)
ISO 9-10 – Fluffy of course! Timestamps don't mean anything. Maybe Furcolow had to go to the bathroom, or whatever. Those attacks are horrible and you deserve scrutiny for it. You are implying daytalk shenanigans for something that is inherently null.

ISO 4 – This makes no sense. Unless El Goo never AGAIN hears noises your grand theory blows up. And you say nothing about the possibility that El Goo might be, you know, Cult and thus would never get NKed.
ISO 9-10 – Opinion opinion opinion with a touch of rhetoric. I’m more than happy to face scrunity. Once again you haven’t provide a scum motivation.

And apparently, I messed up my links. I really should check those links before posting. >.>.

I meant to say link Personal Agenda Mafia with you as the 3rd Party jester as the 'not so Town game' and Perpetual MyLo Mafia as the 'Town' game. (Not gonna try linking this time.)

Although your abrasive defense and rather unwarranted attempt to discredit me is noted.

Funny that the whole crux of your argument is that Town Magna is aggressive. If you actually read Personal Agenda Mafia and MYLO Mafia you would see I’m at my most aggressive in the first game. Thanks for hosting such a wonder TeaParty!

Should I question why you chose to go for two Mini Themed games, which have less than half the population of this game, as opposed to my completed Large Theme games in an attempt to present damaging meta?

Don’t get your emotions all hurt VV. If you make crappy attacks I’m going to call them such.

Ohh yes I dislike it, hur hur hur. And after you're done bussing your buddy RC here, You'll see more of me D2.

DURP. The pointless bussing allegation. Classic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Trilobyte’s 1085 is my exact problem with Seacore. Advocating lynching someone who MIGHT be a murderer 5 days from now doesn’t seem like a very solid tactic.

Compounding this misunderstanding was the fact that MoI (and lots of others) still believed Furc was scum (and so I assumed no logical arguments had yet been made to the contrary); and even further, that MoI accepted that he was 99.999% town after I had made my argument. I don't know, but MoI should be able to explain why my argument convinced him and Hito's didn't - that's what

Let’s clear up a few things about this before it gets any more inaccurate.

1. Do I believe Furc is 99.9999% Town? No way in hell. I think, based on the Noises evidence, his clear lack of focus, and Percy’s debatable answer regarding ambiguity that I don’t see evidence based on Furc’s mind-boggling play that he is Cult. I’m willing to ignore his bad play for the moment.
2. Was it your arguments that swayed me? No, not really. Hito’s argument laid out the case first. What you said that triggered my change was pointing out that Ward in SAII caused the performer to hear noise. I had been operating under the incorrect assumption that Ward did not operate that way in SAII. When you made it clear it did I double checked the facts. Thus my change of read on Furc’s actions to regular VI.

2. I am fine w/being lynched, as long as the town KILLS who I want them to kill after I die.
3. Whoever is citing town-RC vs scum-RC meta needs to clean out their brain housing group. You're saying that I'm always useless as town and always super pro-town and "try to lead the town" as scum.

2. The classic “I’m fine with being lynched” tell. You don’t see that from Town this early in the game. Perhaps when PoE takes over well down the line … but not Now.
3. This is fantastic. Please tell my you aren’t trying to oversimplify my statements. Please. Because I don’t ever recall saying ALWAYS. But let’s discuss. Did Reaper, as Town, in Mad World try to attract attention? Nope. Did Reaper as scum in Harry Potter revel in the limelight after he cleared himself? Yep. Did Reaper as Cultscum in Supernatural go out of his way to look as Proactive as possible? Heck yes. I see enough similarities that I’m not letting you wave your hand and dismiss it out of sorts.

7. Magna is likely scum w/Triglav/Seacore.

Hey look, let’s play ReaperCharlie ..

WHERE’S THE PROOF … THAT’S RIGHT THERE IS NONE YOU IDIOT.

Quick Update


Scum: Seacore, Lost Butterfly, MagnaofIllusion, SpyreX <--i.e. LYNCH THESE MOFOS

Look, how convienant that the people who MUST be scum are all those people voting for you. Scumtastic.

That said you’ve inspired me to ISO with that post.

Incoming ISO of RC –

Note for the record .. these are my interpretations of Reaper’s postings. Disagree? That’s fine but I’m not going to play ‘Fair and Balanced’ and argue both sides of any grey area. And if an ISO isn’t listed it is sufficiently fluffy or non-alignment based it doesn’t deserve mention.

ISO 1 – “Ima gonna die … make it a good one”. Why on earth, so early in the game, would Town start screaming that they were an obv-target for death? No clue.
ISO 3 – Buddying begins – Furc is “a valuable Town asset” and “an unlikely Nightkill”. Why is he an unlikely Nightkill Reaper? Because he’s such a craptastic Town player he makes himself an inevitable and obvious lynch later in the game? Town doesn’t worry about a player being an unlikely kill
ISO 4/5 – Call’s xvart’s list sexy but then backtracks to agree with Triglav that is looks like obv-scum trying to earn Town cred but he “doubt’s xvart will be today’s lynch.
ISO 6 – Votes Benmage and fans the flames of the early conflict between Ben / Fate.

Yeah, except Percy LISTED ALL THE CHOICES IN THE NIGHT ACTION SOLICITATION PM HE SENT EACH OF US.

/FACEPALM

oh wait I found something quite juicy. Stand by, Ion Control.

Fire.

Doesn’t look like a comment I’d expect towards a ‘valuable asset’. And why the “I found a juicy tidbit” in this post while actually posting it in ISO 8?
ISO 8 – Seacore is obvscum for being annoyed at the Ben / Fate conflict.
ISO 9 – Budding up to Trilobyte, Furc, and hito.
ISO 10 – More buddying to me (my 187 was win), Furc again, Andrius and Plum.
ISO 16 – Some pic related fluff and deflection of my question regarding Bowser and LB.
ISO 19 – More reinforcement that Furc is a godly scum-finder (how could he not be, just by chance he’s called half the playerlist today scum LOL) . Questions SSBF’s intro post (which means it’s not solid Town), more argument with Benmage
ISO 26 – Buddy’s AV, saying 568 was pure win and he should sheep that. Despite tons of ‘Seacore is obvscum’ rhetoric after ISO 8 jumps ship to vote BabySpice for no other reason that AV’s post. Yes that’s right … despite never mentioning BabySpice in his ISO we get this … PAYING ATTENTION VV?
ISO 29 – Advises Feysal to “stop tunnelling and start scum-hunting”, which is ironic given his tunnelling with little content on Seacore.
ISO 31 – More buddying to Plum and hops back on Seacore.
ISO 35 – Buddies up to VP Baltar
ISO 38 – Calls VV scummy for requesting Furc not chain spam. Where is this accusation to the many other players who did the same? And where is the scum motivation?
ISO 41 – Calls Benmage cult
ISO 42 – Questions SSBF’s plan regarding Fate / Benmage and suggests his own is better.
ISO 46 – FOS of Hito for the whole graverob scenario. Note that he distances himself from the suspicion by saying “which will probably earn me a few tomatoes in the face”. If Town why would you worry that your suspicion was wrong and immediately distance yourself?
ISO 51 – Buddies up to SSBF for post 779, and welcomes him to his ‘group’. Why does 779 override the issues he addressed in his previous posts about SSBF in ISOs 19 and 42?
ISO 56 – Another argument that Furc’s posts have been useful in ‘a number of ways’. No explanation of what a single way is.
ISO 57 – Responds to Trig’s questions about his inconsistent views on Hydra’s with a pic and a statement to not impugn his honor.
ISO 58 – Votes once again for Seacore. With the same reasoning (hint .. it’s rhetoric).
ISO 61 – Bemoans that SSBF calls him one of a group of potential scum on SSBF’s replace-out.
ISO 62 – ‘I don’t know the rules regarding Cult kills. See, I’m totally Town’
ISO 65 – Asks for claims against him to be substantiated.
ISO 66 – Buddies up to NoPoint saying his posts (even thought he made only one) drip Town.
ISO 67 – Show me the quotes I’m ignoring because I’m Lazy Town. Believe me!!!
ISO 70 – 10 point defense of self post that is wrapped in OMGUS and WIFOM.
ISO 71 – Buddies up to Trilobyte
ISO 72 – Everyone who attacks me is Scum!!! (Isn’t that one of Seacore’s sins?) And what happened to Benmage being cult?

So we have a ton of buddying, lots of rhetoric and OMGUS trying to pass itself off as scum-hunting and a good amount of deflecting of suspicion. I’m happy with my vote at the moment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, since you're here, you never addressed my question about RC as town. You've pointed out lots of instances in which he buddies, but does he buddy and jockey for favour like this all the time? It would help me read him.

I’m working from first hand experience in the following games with Reaper

Ooba’s Mad World Time Travel Mafia –Town Roleblocker
Harry Potter Mafia – Scum Godfather
Farside22’s Supernatural Mafia. – Cult Leader

Pay special attention to his behaviour in each Large Game (they all are) Day 1 and compare to here.

I don’t believe that any player does anything all the time. You’ll have to look at those games and make your own conclusions. I do consider the fact that this game’s lack of traditional PRs makes the comparisons not pure apples to apples. That said my feeling based on personal experience is that Reaper is a good cult candidate.

Also, are you saying that you still have a scumread on Seacore, and that you found nothing townish-looking in RC's ISO? Because I remember you doing the same thing in ACoK Mafia (reading someone in ISO and making every single post sound like a scumtell).

My read on Seacore is Null leaning ever so slightly Scum, with that lean based on his ‘Hunt Scum including Pre-Murderers’. Certainly not strong enough to put him ahead of several other players (Reaper and AV, for starters) IMO.

As for my ISO of Reaper – read any game of mine (including Clash) and find an ISO that shows Town tells. You will not. I don’t believe in behavioral Town tells. And if you want to remove the buddying posts from the ISO (there are a ton) the total amount of scummy posts by Reaper is probably about 20 (less than 1/3rd his ISO).

You can make the argument that there is confirmation bias going on in my ISO. I can’t say it isn’t possible. My re-read is certainly influenced by my gut feeling that the ReaperCharlie is Cult.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Until #1061 MoI was looking good for Paranoid btw, but he voted someone who hasn't voted for him in RC.

Explain how this makes any sense in the context that I voted Furcolow (which has been decried as Policy Based) before he had even posted, much less voted for me.

@xvart: why did you ward MoI?

@Baby Spice: why did you ward MoI?

Both of these explanations were given when the claims were initially made. Why are you asking for answers we already have?

IN FACT WE MAY EVEN WANT TO LYNCH PLUM TODAY.

RC IS OBVSCUM TO BE LYNCHED ON ANY DAY.

Quit drinking the crazy juice Fate. The only time I ever see anyone say “This person is obvscum but we can lynch them any time” is when they are scum. Don’t make me rethink my Town read on you.

While not proof, xvart failed to give Elli a town read, and his voting pattern landed him on my short list for scum.

Not giving Elli’s pointless list making isn’t a Scum tell. And randomly picking a wagon as scum-landed hardly qualifies as any sort of Voting Analysis.

No reason related to game rules. Vote hopping is just not my style. I prefer to vote when I have a more solid case to act on, or if my vote is needed to secure a lynch at deadline. That said, the case on ReaperCharlie put together by Seacore and MoI looks compelling, but I'd still like to read his posts in ISO before placing my vote.

Aside from the insanity angle the Baby Spice provided this looks like Vote Footprint (tm to Magnaofillusion) minimization, which I find scummy. We are far enough into the Day that you should have by now either seen a solid case that you agreed with or developed one of your own. As a proponent of VC analysis I find your reasoning to be not justified.

We're against the RC wagon and pretty much agree with what you said about his “slip” in that we don't think it is very much of one at all. All in all it feels like an opportunistic wagon when we have much better avenues to pursue. Namely Seacore and LB.

Minimizing the nature of the reasons people are voting for RC? Check. Seriously it is hardly just for the ‘slip’. If he is indeed Cult I’ll be looking at your interactions more closely.

I have very little desire to put a lot of new work into this game, if I'm just gonna be lynched today. I have said pretty much all that needs to be said about what I've noticed, and yes, I could do a re-read, but I have very little interest in doing that either. I'm not much on the whole 'contribute a ton just before you are lynched in hopes that when you are lynched that town will come to their senses and kill the ones who pushed your lynch'.

I’m going to call Failed AtE as Lazy Town on this entire paragraph given that you shortly afterwards being yet another rhetoric driven “Lynch because I say so” campaign. I get the strong feeling you expected people to grasp onto this paragraph and say “Look, he’s frustrated Investigator, don’t lynch” and when no-one did you abandoned that plan.

Why would I try to save Furcolow if I was cult. Why. There is no reason.

Why would I call out Seacore out of the blue if I was cult. Why? Again, no reason.

Why would I do pretty much ANYTHING I've done this game, if I was cult?

If I was cult, I would know how the kill mechanism worked, so I wouldn't ask.

Look it’s a patented WIFOMBomb attempt from ReaperCharlie. First you ignore the fact that several of these questions have been answered. Second I know your love of WIFOM use when Scum. Not very convincing to me that you are Town seeing this.

I thought BabySpice was scummy earlier, yea.

No, you're missing the point. My whole post was written to show one thing.

More dodging from you. I really get sick of the whole routine from you. It doesn’t matter what your original point was. People ask you questions independent of those reason. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake immune to being held accountable.

@ xvart: Prove it? I believe I already proved it. And your motivation for lying? Hmmm… maybe because you're cult and don't have anything else you'd like to claim? i.e. crafting a fetish, etc. And I don't know what advantage you'd think you have, but I'm not in the cult so how could I know?

This is stupid reasoning. Why would Cult choose Ward, the action most easily discerned as faked after the fact, as opposed to say, I don’t know, Searching for equipment? I’d love to see an answer that wasn’t predicated on divering attention to anyone but yourself.

Why are you putting me and Seacore in the same category?

Are you saying that we're both TOWN?? If so, when did THAT change?

DERP. Because at that point you two were viable wagons?

No reasoning whatsoever. This is Triglav's whole post.

Ignoring the fact that Trig had repeatedly called for you to answer questions on multiple occasions and voted for you as a result of your inaction? Attempting to paint he vote scummy while ignoring previous statements? Scumtastic.

7. Magna doesn't like my case on Seacore, doesn't think I'm playing to my town meta according to past games he's played with me, doesn't like when he thinks I'm trying to play to my town meta just for the sake of playing to my town meta (say that three times fast), and overall just thinks I'm trying to take the center of attention and lead the town (like in Harry Potter where we were scum together).

I admit, Magna DOES have a few legitimate complaints with my play when others have rather hollow/contrived/reaching cases on me. But onwards.

What happened to Magna is scum with others for voting for you? Did you realize antagonizing me (like you did in Supernatural) is not a good move and thus attempted to reverse course?

Seroiusly I go from obv-scum for voting for you to “Magna DOES have a few legitimate complaints” in the span of what - 48 hours? Not Town at all.

Overall, I am 2-9-1 as town, and 4-2-0 as scum. The scum games I lost were because I made newbie mistakes in both of them. But I have had some terrible luck in playing some really, really bad town games. I wouldn't say they are all my fault that we lost, but at least one of them is (Powerful Wizard Mafia comes to mind. Dam# you, Andrius).

Appeal to Statistics noted. Your overall record has nothing to do with your competence as Scum or Town. Any player worth his salt generally has a worse Town record than Scum record (I know I do), Why? Because competent Town players are killed early while competent Scum players only have to worry about being lynched.

@Reaper -

I love that you've moved from Seacore is obvscum to xvart is ovbscum and now to Bowser is lurking obvscum. If you really believed any of those rhetoric fueled pushes I'm guessing you would have stuck with them.

b. MoI
Where has he been? As town he is very, very active in attacking/defending people. This game he has tried to imitate that, but he has been WAY LESS ACTIVE. likely cult here, too.

Where have I been? I have a life outside MS and was not able to post for ONE day and now I am lurking Cult? LOL

Your conclusions are as usual VI-tastic Furc.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The world is about to end for the sentence I’m about to type –

In regards to Fate’s 1345 – QFT.

There .. I’ve done it. God help us all.

i am also willing to bet money triglav is scum

I’d ask you if you were willing to make an Avatar bet but I already know you back out of those so I will not bother …

I'm not going to vote just yet, because I'm currently at work, and I need some time to put my thoughts together and see if they make sense written down; but the only thing dissuading me from a Reaper vote is the speed at which the wagon formed, and the catalyst.

Oh yay a Speed of the Wagon argument. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. I can point out MANY examples that prove Day 1 wagon can and do form quickly on Scum (in fact see my Day 1 wagon in Invitational 8. The calls of ‘Speed of the Wagon’ helped me stave of my lynch).

I read some fence-sitting here waiting to see which way the wind blows.

Someone with paranoid can vote for anyone, until people start voting for them. You (Until your vote for RC I think it was), and Feysal and a couple of others that I can check on when I get back to my lappy currently meet that profile.

Your analysis is naturally going to more likely find player who don’t vote spam. That said there is an easy test for this. I’ll simply wait for someone to vote me each Day and when they do I’ll move my vote to someone who hasn’t voted me. Anyone can do this and I’m sure it is easy enough to devise tests for the other voting insanities. For that reason I think it is fairly pointless to focus on them this early.

Nice conditional accusation. Have fun with that.

Your point? Relational observations are always conditional until you get flips.

Why no threat to Furpants who we were agreeing with and talking to about the RC wagon?

Mainly for the same reason I haven’t questioned El Goo (surprised you didn’t bring them up also) about it … after seeing his flippant responses I don’t see much usefulness in asking questions that will not get reasonable answers. I simply note them and move to people I think are reasonable. It’s actually an advantage for you from the standpoint that if you are Town your response could help shape my read. My read on them will be formed independent of their responses.

Your hydra contains at least 2 people I would expect a rational response from when questioned. Plus the use of the word ‘opportunistic’ doesn’t sit well coming from one of your heads. And since your posts are unsigned I’ve gone on the theory that it is that head that made the comment.

My question to you is this – Was the sarcastic one liner from your slot at the top of the page not a sufficient response?

I haven't MOVED from attack to attack, Magna. It is a multiple-pronged attack. I have multiple heads, like a hydra, but... not.

Fear me.

FEAR ME.

1. Actually you have but thanks for making up some absurd reason why you aren’t.
2. The fact that you aren’t even bothering to address my post in a meaningful way tells me I’m probably right. Having seen your freak-outs in a scum QT before I assume the Cult QT is chock full of all sorts of choice words if you are scum (which I believe you are).

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm sorry to hear that you suffer the terrible afflictions of selective blindness and premature post-snipping.

Thanks for validating my opinion as posted in response to Trilobyte. Moving on …

I remain happy to concede that this is not a valid reason not to vote for ReaperCharlie.

Pointless double-speak attempt to look cute. Noted.

Fact is FOSing him is a worthless move. You staged your statement as a way to vote for Reaper after you ‘got your thoughts together’ if the wagon looked solid and Town acceptable or simply to go a different direction if you decided it wasn’t in your best interest, IMO.

Quite frankly if you were sure you wanted to get your thoughts together you could have simply waited until you weren’t at work as opposed to making the post you did.

FU Seacore.

Unannounced/unforeseen V/LA. Sorry Percy

I’m taking my ball and going home. Quaint.

After all the times I’ve seen you hound someone just to do so (Andy this ring any bells for you?) when the shoe is on the other foot it doesn’t feel so good, does it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Noone ever quotes the times I'm right.
I'll catch up laater tonight...have a competition to prepare for...

While a diversion I want to address this. Casting a wide net with large lists of both Town and Scum players isn’t something I think you should be able to point at later and say – See, I caught X,Y, and Z. Especially if you make multiple lists that show players shifting back and forth. I consider it analogous to the player who accuses a large percentage of a player population as scum during a Day and then when one of them eventually flips Scum points to the earlier accusation and says “Look I called it!”

Let’s examine the Town list as posted by Seacore (which is arbitrary since we both know your slot posted multiple lists each day, but I want to use it just as an example) earlier

TOWN
Drippereth
LynchMePls
Unsight
Benmage
Percy
Vezopiraka
hasdgfas
danakillsu
MagnaOfIllusion

There are 9 players on the Town list, including yourself. You know your own alignment so that is a guaranteed 1 of 9 correct (since you were Town in that game). That leaves 8 unknown slots. Clash of Kings had 26 players, 25 of unknown alignment and 9 total scum (4 each of 2 Mafia and 1 Serial Killer). So on random chance just choosing 8 players at random you have a 16/25 chance of pulling a Town player. This works to be a rough percentage of 64% randomly being Town. For simplicities sake I’m not going to run a with replacement simulation to figure the actual percentage of those 8 who should be town. I’ll just say 5 (8 times 64%, rounded down). So with your guaranteed 1 Town your list of 9 should likely contain 6 Town just by pure random chance. In this case you had 3 Mafians and 6 Town on the list so you did just what was expected if you put no thought at all into the list and picked randomly.

I’d give you more credit overall if these sorts of list, when tempered by your insights, resulted in higher than random chance results. But I’ve digressed.

Back to actual content –

First I’d like to retract my comments at 1379 regarding ReaperCharlie’s V/LA. The ‘FU Seacore comment’ shaded my view. I looked at Reaper’s games and it appears he’s done this site wide. If something personal has cropped up to the detriment of Reaper’s ability to play I hope, on a personal note, that everything turns out Ok.

Regardless of whether he is Cult or not personal difficulties should not be responded to with any sort of derision. So I officially apologize for the comments.

You're absolutely right. I should ignore questions for as long as possible and immediately vote without explanation. After all, I am a man of the sheeple

Nice way to exaggerate and misconstrue my statement. Excellent work.

I suggested that you should have waited until you were home from work and had a chance to settle your thoughts (which is exactly what you said in your initial post you wanted to do) before posting. Nothing in that suggests that you should be waiting ‘as long as possible’ to respond.

This isn't a bad lynch.
Sucks I'm going to be on a wagon with LB, but perhaps they're town and I was wrong before.
unvote
vote: bowser

So you chose to leave a wagon of 4 votes (xvart) and not join a wagon on Seacore (4 votes), both of which you have called scum IIRC and are attempting to build a wagon on a lurker being replaced who had 1 vote before your vote change?

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until Monday morning for my usual family duties. With this weekend being Halloween and Trick or Treat on Saturday I expect less access than normal.

[MagnaofIllusion]

HEY WHAT THE FUCK DID WE SAY ABOUT TOWN LISTS.

WHAT THE FUCK DID WE SAY

Hey Fate, I thought you didn't bother to read my posts

[MagnaofIllusion]

Which explains perfectly how I was scrolling down, saw TOWN with names under it, and jumped hastily to conclusions.
Which made me WANT to read your post because you were being anti-town.

VICIOUS CIRCLE IS VICIOUS

Yeah, but if you knew anything about me you would know that I never make lists of Town players on Day 1, especially in a Large Game.

I know I am not a precious and unique snowflake ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: MoI All he's doing is bullying himself out of questioning. The problem is, his defense is ridiculously agressive and MoI loovees to lead towns. And since he was warded and all, we need to make sure MoI never makes it past N1 everrr again. Muhahahahaha.

Waiting to see a scum-tell here. Loves to lead Towns is a scum-tell. Being aggressive is a scum-tell? Right, thought as much.

I wondered what happened after I showed your previous attach to be bunk. But I’m glad to see you don’t let having any reasonable ideas as to why I’m scum stop you.

I've believed MoI to be scum, and even if he's town, I don't like him

I’m glad about the real reason you are voting for me. Just as I was when I declared you would be a long term hinderance to Town, regardless of alignment.

He is claiming things about me which are blatant lies to attack my character, such as him contacting me to change my avatar. This is the first I've heard of it since 1000, and I'm willing to take suggestions. I will not change it to something I do not like.

Speaking of blatant lies … I was refereeing directly to 1000 where you first agreed to the bet and then backed out when your failed to actually read and comprehend what was written. So please don’t try to say that I’m lying. You agreed to the bet and then reneged. End of story.

MoI as town posts way more often and actively defends himself. An example of this is the game I just referenced, mini theme 1000. As scum, he imitates that, but he actually posts WAY less.

Quite frankly bullshit. I tend to post once per day during the weekdays in most games. I don't spam the like you. And I’ve actively defended myself from VV’s previous bad attack so lying to say I’m not defending is bullshit.

TOWN:
Brave and Beautiful: 96/1600 as town, with him even dying a few days before the end = ~6% of the posts
SCUM:
Harry Potter Mafia: 32/1700 as scum = 2% of the posts
Stars Aligned Tres: 29/1410 2% of the posts. Die scum.

I love this attempt. Shows exactly why you are a VI.

You’ve picked the three games we’ve played together so I will not accuse you of cherry picking to skew numbers. That said let’s examine.

1. Brave and the Beautiful was a 12 man Mini Theme Game. And I died exactly 1 day before the game ended when your scummy ass was strung up, so please don’t try to lie about how long it was.
2. You are using my post count form Harry Potter, a 16 player Large Theme game I replaced into DURING NIGHT 2 and trying to compare it to my post count percentage for a 12 person game I started off initially? And why not mention that I was there a total of 3 day periods (Days 3 to 5), one of which was SKIPPED due to the death of a Beloved Princess. So I only had half the number of days to post. If not scumtastic just plain stupid.
3. And finally you are comparing to this game, a 28 player large game filled with a number of players who post ‘prolifically’ (I’m being nice and not saying spamming here) and are attempting to say my percentage of posting indicates I’m scum?

If anything this makes me laugh. It's not apples to apples. It's not even apples to oranges. It's apples to brocolli to rocks.

I’ll be frank Furc … you are a VI, you always have been a VI, and I have little doubt you will always be a VI. Go sit in the corner with your semi-confirmed status and follow the lead of stronger player you feel are Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But just to show that Furc’s conspiracy theory on posting percentage is further crap I went to two Mini Normal games I have played in recent memory and survived til the end – one as Scum and one as Town. Both 12 player games so Apples to Apples.

Zang’s 1003 – Town – 61 / 789 posts, or 7.7%
Invitiational 8 – Scum – 66 / 768 posts, or 8.5%

These games are as close to analogus as you can get. They show that my posting percentage is statistically similar regardless of Alignment.

And for those who don’t understand why Large Theme games are not good comparisons – as the number of players in a game the more the percentage of posts per play goes down across the board. Simply because the 100% of the pie is being divided among more people.

InB4foreFurcAttemptstoPointlesslyArguetheGamesAreGoodComparisons.

And look above, Appealing to Emotions above about poor, helpless Furc. It makes my heart soar to see VV defending those who can't help themselves [/sarcasm off]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup I did. Because, you know, it suits you.

I'm glad you learned the lessons I taught in Personal Agenda Mafia VV - Don't let facts get in the way of a rhetoric based attack. Bravo!

Oh wait, that's the game where I was a Jester and was planning my own lynch. D'oh.

Sucks to be you VV

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, do you disagree that scum post on average, less than town?

Yes, I disagree from the standpoint that your statement is attempting to assert behaviour in a broad-brush variety. Whether an individual player lurks more as scum than Town depends on the player. You can’t realistically say someone like MPR lurks more as scum than Town. So a broad, general statement is something I will likely not agree with.

3. Fate is currently my top townread. I'm going to give MoI the benefit of the doubt for now (his scum meta is difficult to differentiate from his town behavior), but I have to say, if he isn't dead by the cult's or a murderer's hands by Day 3 I'll start getting suspicious. Most others here I'm fairly neutral on.

I was wondering how long this would take to catch up with me here on MS. 9 months is not bad, I suppose. I guess I should be somewhat proud to be making my way into the "Too good to survive this long without being Scum" ranks here also.

It's not because of why he defends himself, because that I can understand. It's how he defends himself and how he's supposedly 'contributing' in thread,

when in reality he's so obvscum, it's kinda silly.

Bolded the rhetoric for emphasis. You make cry buzzword all you wish but statements like this show exactly why you are using rhetoric and Appealing to Repetition. The more you say I’m scum the more people will believe you, right? No matter how little you have to support your assertion with.

ISO 18: Calls me out on my attack on him, The buzzword is 'Rhetoric'. Calling my attacks 'rhetoric' to discredit a perfectly good interpretation of his posts.

Oh, the irony. Do you not know what rhetoric is? Because that’s exactly what you are doing … calling me scum without any reasoning and hoping if you throw it against the wall enough times it sticks.

Meanwhile you have been throwing “Bully” and “Fluff” at me constantly. Calling my posts fluff doesn’t make them so. So your attack on me here for using buzzwords while you are doing THE EXACT SAME THING is complete hypocricy.

MoI is focusing on these things and these things alone. He's not trying to help Town, he's not getting Town reads, he's not boosting bad morale, he's a poisonous presence in our Town and he must die. He is deliberately getting away with the bullshit he is spreading because he thinks he can get away with it.

The first sentence is quite frankly pure bullshit, but luckily anyone can see that. I’ve certainly spent plenty of time addressing other players in searching for scum. Your perspective is just that – your biased and tunnelled perspective.

As for not getting Townreads let’s see from not so long ago –

Quit drinking the crazy juice Fate. The only time I ever see anyone say “This person is obvscum but we can lynch them any time” is when they are scum.

Don’t make me rethink my Town read on you.

This shows your assertion is a fabrication. Here’s a hint – just because I don’t scream about my Town reads doesn’t mean I don’t have them.

As to the other things you mentioned – meh. When I see you assert something that’s a scum-tell I’ll respond.

Soo yeah. MoI is scum. Period. If he isn't lynched today, I'll be stalking him tonight. HEY MoI. GIT YO CULT BUDDIES TO WARD YOU AGAIN TONIGHT, AI'GHT?

Once again you show your general inability to make a coherent Scum read, just like in the recent AGM game that ended. Please go ahead and try to Murder me. It will show, just like Benmage, you are so tied to you personal emotional state (and lets face it, this all started when I pointed out your general scum-hunting ineptitude) that you can’t play in a rational Pro-Town manner. If you succeed in killing me it will just show that you were off-based and completely Anti-Town.

@1457

– More unsupported Appeals to Repetition. Keep up the good work with your fallacies. While tempting to think you are scum for such obvious use of fallicies I will not because I’ve seen your scum games and know you don’t generally make cases this poor when you are scum.

That's exactly it though..He's perfectly scummy, in the sense that it's difficult to find dirt on him outside of that. That's probably all the dirt you'll get out of him at this stage. Scummy, yes. But it's not D1 scummy, it's endgame lynch scummy because he's been playing good with it.

I’m perfectly scummy because you can’t find any scum-tells and are trying to sell abrasiveness as one. Classic. Glad to see you are more focused on finding scum who aren’t playing scummy as opposed to those who are.

And this post perfectly contradicts your earlier attempts to assert I was scum via behavioral / metatells. So where you just making crap up earlier in the thread when you fail-tempted to assert my behaviour played to a non-supportable ‘scum meta’?

I'm not really a 'tell' player though, nor have I ever used tells. I detect intent by reading posts. Malicious intent be soarin' with MoI's ISO.

It is pretty clear that you are a not a Tell player. Because asserting ‘maliciousness’ as scum intent is ludicrous if you can’t exactly demonstrate how I would benefit as scum from doing it.

The main difference is he is being overly malicious on Furc.

Oh look, now it’s overly malicious. Care to explain how it is so? And despite your opinion that it is not from a Town perspective until you can come up with a valid and viable Scum reason you are just shouting out ‘My opinion is all I have”

He was ignoring Furcolow's attempts at explanations, answering fluff with fluff and some other things. (Srsly, ISO MoI's and Furcolow's interactions before you berate my case.)

Look, more buzzword bingo (fluff) as I pointed out earlier. You must be scum for using buzzwords, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

For ineptitude look above.

The 'using buzzwords is irony' is just a sad response when you made that statement in your 'case'.

Glad to see you know you can't respond in any way that doesn't make you look bad so you go back to Rhetoric and repetition.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not a lot of time right now so I’ll hit the highlights …

CD2

Username:Magnaofillusion

Did you Hear Noise? Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who? No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions? No

List all of the insanities you currently have: None

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who? No

Were you murdered? No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result? (Note that these are both poor N1 choices.)No

Twitch? No

@Benmage

– Why did you choose to stalk again as opposed to completing the Kill on Fate? He clearly wasn’t coming back so it was a perfect chance for you to prove your Town status with no downside (Fate is never going to contribute to Town’s success due to the Soul Rip).

@VV

– Want to claim your Stalk of me (which you ‘threatened’) for Town cred? Or was that an idle threat?

I’ll respond to any open questions to me generated at the end of Day 1 that appeared when I was V/LA later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Posts that were unaddressed before Night fell

–

So you don't think Furpants is reasonable? As someone who has engaged in a extended dialog with him in my last few posts, I think you are very wrong.

Actually in my exchanges with Furpants I found he used jokes to avoid answering questions, was generally dismissive and reactionary. None of this is necessarily a scum-tell but told me not to bother engaging him for the moment. Once again your opinion differs from mine.

The one liner was made by Zach.

The follow up questioning you was done by me, I forgot to sign the post. It was me who said the wagon was opportunistic and I do stand by that considering the inital reasoning and how fast it grew when other wagons just didn't go anywhere.

The general point I was making was two-fold. First that Zach’s response served only to be sarcastic. You rather closely followed on the heels with a general Sotty style comment. Since you are playing a Hydra and not making a significant effort to distinguish your posts the juxtaposition looks odd.

But scum post less....GIEFF in mafia 98 ran the numbers on all the players in the game somehow and all but i think alexhans posted drastically less as scum than as town. This was illustrated not with total posts counts at the end of the game, but how often they posted a day when town compared to when scum. Go look for yourself the numbers are drastically lower and I bet if you just made a poll in mafia discussion asking people if they personally post less when scum than when town 90% will agree.

So you are asserting that statistics drawn from one game correlate to clear site-wide proof? Bullshit. If you can show me a thread where statistically a significant sampling of games is statistically analyzed and corrected for days alive, number of players in the game, and the statistical impact each other player in the game has and the results correlate to proof that greater than 65% or so of players post less as scum and I’ll buy it. Otherwise you are simply trying to pass of your opinion related to Mafia theoretical discussion as a scum-tell.

Yes and no. You'll be apt to find scum all along the continuum in that case. And hey, lemme ask, you call Furc's behavior scummy and then say that Cult know he's Investigator. So which is he, or what?

In regards to scum being everywhere along the continuum I agree in general. I choose to look at the players clearing in the face of his play (which I see as consistent regardless of alignment in personal experience) as opposed to those questioning and pressuring him. I’m not sure why then not peep one had been made regarding all the accusations that Cult-scum must be in the Furcolow early wagon.

Furc’s behavior was scumtastic. No disputing it. That said the scumminess is most likely from his VI nature given the Mod confirmation he stumbled blindly into. So he’s acted scummy (bad cases, flailing and calling everyone who looks funny at him scum, etc) but is most likely just a bad Investigator.

Why go out of the way to assert this is some sort of contradiction?

Here's a question for you: why didn't you stalk him last Night, in that case, eh? In any case, you're wrong and I still find that initial play scummy. Thanks for reminding me.

Because blindly stalking Night 0 would be stupidly anti-Town. You know this so why bother asking the question? I'm not stupid. The one free shot at a kill each Investigator gets should be not be wasted frivolously based on prior experiences. It should be saved to nail Cult. I reserve the right to interact with players as I feel appropriate to the player. Feel free to find my personal opinion about Furcolow scummy. In any case you are wrong about that.

In which case Furc just threw away his team's ability to off El Goosuki or throw their slot an extra Insanity because they CANNOT use that Fetish without proving that Furc was lying Cult (because you can't craft a Fetish of someone you have a Fetish of, so any Fetish sent or used to Ritual El Goos would have to originate with Furc-Cult per this theory). BRILLIANT explanation there.

Nice thinking. Except for the fact, of course, that on ANY SUCCESSIVE NIGHT that El Goo hears a noise and is not warded a Fetish could be created. So once El Goo hears Noise and is not warded (or multiple wards claims are made) your theory goes Kablooie. So the Cult would have to be, I don’t know, patient enough to wait a few days and then could throw doubt on multiple Ward claims or exploit an unwarded noise. Or perhaps El Goo could be Cult. Glad you didn’t factor that into your BRILLIANT explanation. Any reason why that possibility slipped your mind?

And then on to new business –

Dispatch RC

Dispatch Fate

Eventual flips are absolutely required for any sort of long term relational analysis. Plus if Cult want to burn sanities Warding graves and thus making themselves more susceptible to Occult Books that would be wonderful.

Does anyone else find it odd that El Goo, whose input into the game has been less than stellar, has been warded on successive nights?

@xvart

– You chose to ward El Goo over any number of more Pro-Town players (Hito for one) just to test a theory that we put to be 30 or so pages ago thanks to Furc's mod clearance?

I think Magna's question to Benmage is pretty ridiculous. Why kill a modkilled player?

Despite Benmage’s attempted backtrack today the drum he hammered yesterday was ‘Killing Fate will CONFIRM me as Town’. And Fate’s Soul Rip left him alive but unable to actively help Town. So going through with the Murder of a still alive but useless Fate accomplishes the mission he kept screaming about Day 1. So no, the question is not stupid.

Magna that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. One of our strongest tools as town is we all have viging powers. I stalked someone I believe to be scum. Why would I waste my one shot on someone dead...that is horrible logic.

Me being confirmed town is secondary incentive. Primary being killing cult.

[b/]

I’m calling complete bullshit on the bolded. This is absolutely NOT what you spent all Day 1 saying.

1. If you believed the bolded you would NOT have stalked Fate N1 as you had ZERO reason to suspect he was Cult. You didn’t know, unless you are Cult, his alignment N0 and couldn’t have known you would not hear noise until Day 1 started. So your N0 actions directly contradict your statement.
2. After you gave up your charade of attempting to call Fate confirmed cult early D1 you wrapped yourself in the blanket of “I’ll kill him and be confirmed Town” til the very end of D1. So this once again contradicts your bolded statement.

If you were worried about outing your target to the Cult you’ve failed as Cult absolutely know which members heard noise. So saying you aren’t hiding anything after you were more than happy to claim Stalking of Fate D1 is ludicrous.

On my reread of MoI yesterday I was finding his dismissal of the VV case to be excessively confrontational. When VV made his case I do agree that MoI is the type of player that you basically have to hunt by feel because he just snows you with words. Arrogantly dismissing that as nothing seems to be intentionally ignoring his own meta, which I'm sure he's well aware of.

My dismissal of VV was absolutely confrontational. I make no bones about it. He swam in the rhetoric pool and got what was coming to him. If you are trying to make some Meta argument that Town Magna can’t be abrasive you better read my interactions with Furc and Kast ‘Captain Theoretical’ in Brave and the Beautiful. Just because I normally don’t act so cavalier doesn’t mean I’m not willing to do so when the situation demands it.

I’m not going to jump on the Benmage must be lynched wagon. Depsite his anti-Town play he can be directed or dealt with at a later date.

Once all Noise claims are in today I’ll be reviewing and placing my vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think that would have been a terribly stupid use of night action considering it wouldn't have made Fate dead from my interpretation of the rules. Not that Ben didn't proceed to waste his night action anyhow, but ...

I think your intpretation of the rules needs a serious overhaul.

1. Fate is still alive.
2. Mods have stated actions would still affect them.

How you are getting anything other than Benmage could complete his Stalk-Murder chain on Fate?

Scums in need of the rope post haste:
MoI

I see you’ve chosen the VV style Rhetoric / Repetition route as opposed to backing your statements. Noted.

@Plum

– In case you missed my question I’d like you to answer this in regards to El Goo:

Or perhaps El Goo could be Cult. Glad you didn’t factor that into your BRILLIANT explanation. Any reason why that possibility slipped your mind?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, do you feel this is a fair characterization? I mean, it doesn't take much to understand Furc's play, so I'd like to know if you feel like you do understand what his style is?

I address this later on with VV but I’ll say it here.

This is an absolutely correct assessment of my perception. Furc is a VI and I don’t think I obscured my view on Day 1.

When he’s Town he’s not going to be a net benefit in scum-hunting. When he’s scum he’s going to slide by on his VI playstyle which people will defend. In either case he’s an anchor chained solidly to Town’s chances at victory. The longer he lasts in a game this size the more he drags it down to Hell.

Look at his ISO for Days 1 and 2 and honestly ask yourself if you disagreed. A short list of reasons why my opinion hasn’t changed –

1. Didn’t bother to actually think about his N0 action.
2. Constantly changing opinion – Fate is Town, Fate is Cult, Fate is Town.
3. Lack of reliable scum-hunting. His opinions on who is Cult generally revolve around whoever challenges his play or opinions.

I could go on to demonstrate numerous radical changes of opinion on all sorts of matters. And he’s pretty much called half the playerlist scum at one point or another.

Were this a 12 person game I wouldn’t have bothered going after him early. There is little room for error in that environment. In large games Town has significantly more wiggle room. Especially since we know there is only one Cult faction and N1 has given strong evidence that the Murderer route has been discounted as opposed to SAII (1 murder N1 as opposed to 4).

1) The ungodly tunnel on Furc like it was his day job.

I think I’ve clearly indicated above my opinion on Furc. If you want to call what is in effect a Policy push on an absolutely useless player (IMO) scummy that’s your call. Given the end of Clash of Kings I know that you know exactly why I don’t want VI players around at endgame. The fact that you are specifically going out of your way to ignore your direct knowledge gives me pause.

3) RC wagon rolls up at the end of the day and MoI is an eager beaver to jump on that. We get a fancy pants iso of RC in 1171. I don't know, but I always find these post by post isos to be kind of scummy because people seem to rarely ever give the person a fair shake when doing them. I mean, seriously go back and read MoI's PBPA of RC. Essentially 90 percent of RCs posts are called scummy or fluff. I find this quite over the top by any measure. I mean, maybe I'm wrong and RC will flip scum, but I just find this kind of rhetoric excessive and unlikely to come from town. That of course, is sort of ironic, since Magna seems fond of attacking RC, Vas and others for their rhetorical statements. Now before Magna comes in and says 'ZOMG VAS DID IT TO ME TOOOOO,' yes I realize he did. I think he was being over the top as well, but I also feel like you were winding him up with your antagonism from his original points on you. I still find it scummy regardless, but yours on RC is worse because nothing provoked it other than you trying to trump up your vote.

This whole point is carefully fabricated bullshit. Had you read my ISO you would have seen my questions and criticisms of RC’s play throughout the Day BEFORE the RC wagon formed. Since you didn’t here are the ISOs for you (8,17,18 ). Yet somehow you are attempting to portray my suspicion of RC as fabricated out of mid-air. Both incorrect and scumtastic.

I also love that point 2 and 4 (which I’m not bothering to address directly as they say basically ‘VP’s opinion of this is scummy’, which I disagree with) amount to ‘I’m not scum-hunting’ yet when I put together a case on RC it’s scummy. Lovely. Decide which direction you want to push VP.

MoI - do you think Benmage is more likely cult or investigator?

At this point I’m undecided. Asking me yesterday before Night and I would have said most likely Investigator. I can see his personal grudge with Fate overriding any Town sense he had. When he didn’t follow through and kill the rendered useless Fate last night and ‘prove’ his Town cred it shoved me back into the ‘Benmage is Unknown’ category, especially in light of his epic backtrack on his reasoning for stalking in the first place. The fact that he didn’t follow through gives me pause to consider he might be cult playing a very ballys / stupid gambit. He has managed to basically derail the conversation each day with his declarations. The longer this cluster-f with him goes the more I question him as investigator. Fate’s flip will also help shape my opinion. Benmage being Investigator would be more or less solidified if Fate flips Cult.

This is just all kinds of weak sauce. You've played with me and you've played with Zach we are two quite different styles of player so even in a hydra the posting styles are going to be different. I have signed all of my posts bar a couple where I forgot, OJ has signed all her posts it doesn't take a math wiz to realize who made the others. You don't explain why it is odd and seem to be suggesting it was scummy (or else why bother bringing it up?) It just feels like a weak attempt at mud slinging.

Right back at you Sotty. Your entire argument as to why I’m scum is ‘gut’ and filled with no support – weak sauce as you say. I don’t like the direction your arguments have taken because they very much remind me of your Newbie scum game. Your statement above is further indicative. Lots of backhanded insults (re knowing who posted) and accusations – very disproporatiate to the attention I’ve give you. So, yeah, chalk me up for a similar ‘gut’ scum-read on you.

The fact that you don't bother to do anything case wise but latch on with a "I love VP's case" when one is posted strengthens my suspicions.

MoI is my number one suspicion at the moment, every post is so illogical.

Here’s a clue Ben – disagreeing with your play isn’t bad logic. Sorry to burst your bubble but it isn’t. Care to provide quotes of my ‘illogical’ posts as opposed to making unsubstantiated accusations as usual?

I like tnm's last post. When I am at a computer I will explain why I also find kunk likely scum.

Of course you like TNM’s post he agrees with your position

I’m waiting for any sort of scum-hunting and explanation why any of your ‘candidates’ are scum. How about it? You know, actually scum-hunting as opposed to calling those who don’t follow your anti-Town play blindly scum.

No claims here. I want you dead now though, so that I don't have to get your scummy blood in mah clothes.

Actually you want me dead because I hurt your pride. That’s ok. I accept you can’t disconnect your personal pride from logically assessing the game.

VOTE MAGNA. FOR GREATER JUSTICE. (And then we can get rid of Kunkscum right after, ohh yeaahh.)

Ah, another batch of Appealing to Repeition, rhetoric, and an added dash of stupid internet meme. Good times.

That was not the case, I had a full blown case revealing that MoI's INTENTIONS in thread are scummy in nature, and that was me attempting to convince people and my interpretations that his attacks on Furcolow are fail attempts to look like he's scumhunting when he is not(because he's scum etc.).

So you are back to ‘intentions’ again, which you abandoned the first time for ‘He’s scum because he’s not showing scum-tells’ at the end of Day 1. Yawn. When you have something noteworthly let me know.

That quote is, I admit, rhetoric.

You have to admit it. It’s all you do …

Nice try scum. Kunkstar lynch after we are done with MoI, k.

Nice … lining up lynches. Either classic scum play or more example of fail-Town VV traditional play.

MoI has a lot of experience with Furc. He knows that Furc is a derpy player. However he is incessant in his attacks despite knowledge of Furc's play. He didn't even attempt to figure out Furc's alignment and just kept calling him scum for shits and giggles. I found the bullshit in his attacks.

Add that he cares more about his own image than figuring other people out = MoI is SCUM SCUM SCUM.

I do know Furc is a derpy players. Which is why he needs to be eliminated. Allowing VI’s into endgame situations is VERY STUPID Town play in a large game. It allows, I don’t know, Mafia in a horrible PoE situation to go on to win when they have no rights to do so (see Clash of Kings as a perfect example).

Furc is not going to win this game for Town. The Cult are not going to kill him because he’s derpy. Call it a Policy lynch if you wish. This early in the game it’s better to eliminate the landmines when Town has breathing room than later when it cost Town the game.

And look, yet more rhetoric.

PS. Why are there so many votes on Fate's dispatch? Aren't we minimizing the body count to prevent Cult getting dust? I thought this has already been discussed.

Slight FOS on everyone at the wagon. THERE BE SCUMZ THERE TOO. (Specifically MoI but you get the drill.)

Look, I’m so Town it hurts. I’m very worried about Corpse Dust because it would make 1 kill by the Cult more successful despite the fact that we have SO MANY PLAYERS all Town can’t possibly be adequately protected anyway.

Here VV is churning desperately for Town cred. Scumtastic.

VOTE: VV

Because I can.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given this game has degenerated into what amounts to personal conflicts I’m going to make one final, and I do mean final, address to the following elements that make up the ‘case’ against me.

1. I’m being mean / vindictive / poisonous.
2. I’m being defensive / I’m more worried about my survival than finding scum.
3. I’m not scum-hunting.

1 and 2 aren’t true and furthermore are scum-tells. I’m far from the only person who has been abrasive in this game. And I did in purposely. I’m rather tired of getting killed very early in Large games when I am Town. Antagonizing those players who are weak enough to rise to the bait was specifically designed to lower my NK threshold. You may not like it but it certain isn’t indicative at all that I’m Cult.

3 is a factor of my playstyle. Delayed flip games limit my strength which is Vote analysis and relational analysis. Until we have some flips that confirm alignment, and usually at least 1 Cult, my scum hunting is going to be somewhat hampered. I don’t really see any effective scum-hunting coming from anyone at this point. Truth.

On to general observations –

The following players are massively lurking. That in itself isn’t a scum-tell but in a game this size, especially with the number of spammers we have in the game, means that in this select group you can expect to find some Cult taking advantage of the format.

Andrius, El Goo, Feysal, manho, NoPoint, TNM

On to Plum –

I know this is heresee to all the Plum fans out there but her contributions to the game so far don’t impress me as Obv-Town. Sorry, they don’t. Case in point – her contributions today pretty much consist of talking about some plan with Spyrex about targeted murders that is realistically going no-where and is just busy work masquerading as Town planning. Not even scum-hunting in the least. Don't let the fact that she's dear old Plum blind you.

The wagons today –

The competing wagons between myself and El Goo are going to be very useful down the line, I suspect. I know I’m not Cult and depending on whether El Goo is or not (the massive lurking from the slot makes me lean toward yes, BTW) a Vote Count analysis down the line will give you plenty of information about who went to which wagon and who stayed away from either.

On to specific quotes –

@VV re 2120

– I’m not going to bother except for the following. The rest is you just posturing.

After your cult flip, guess who's going down? It's pretty natural to line up this lynch, really.

And when I don’t flip Cult what then? Because I will not. Your ‘case’ is predicated, as I have said before, based on your wounded pride.

So when I do flip Investigator all the ‘Cult’ relational tells you’ve been yapping about go up in smoke. Is Kunkster (and anyone else) who dismiss your ‘case’ as pointless still Cult then?

Yawn. I use rhetoric, sure I do! I mean, we have to convince people right? Stating analysis is boring, and people don't read analysis. I had a case on you because your pushing for Furc is horribad plus other stuff.

Your limitiations of attention don’t mean that everyone suffers from said flaws. Rhetoric clearly isn’t more convincing than actual scum-hunting.

And on to after 2120 –

3 corpses is 1 less than 4 corpses. That's a 25% decrease of corpses that cult could use to get dust!

WHAT AN AMAZING OFFER. UNDISPATCH NOW!

What you have once again failed to clarify is the huge danger that dust represents. If the Cult does manage to get one use of it do you think it is that damaging to Town? Cult doesn’t get an additional kill form it or anything else. You have to explain why a one-shot potential to prevent 1 level or Rez is worth your panic-mongering.

Flips > fear. Enough said.

Worse than us, which is no small challenge:

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Your survivalist vote simply on an opposing wagon is noted. And I hardly am worse than your slot given the vaunted repuation of 2 of the 3 of you. Seriously between three players this is the best effort you can come up with?

MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

I’m not willing to lynch him at this stage because the chance he is Cult goes to zero with a successful kill tonight. And lynching him is the only thing Town can do to ‘not let’ Benmage kill. He will not respond to any other stimulus. So any discussion outside of whether to lynch him is pointless.

MoI - what do you think of AV today?

His continued 1 on 1 sandbox fight with Spyrex continues to whelm me. For all the attention I have got for needling VV it is funny that their continued sniping has gone basically unacknowledged. Other than that I see many questions that look like scum-hutning but really aren’t that effective. Much like most everyone else.

Two people just happening to rez the cult kill is a huge coinkydink. I'm trying to figure out who had a genuinely townie reason to protect him, because I think there's a good chance you're not both telling the truth.

What your analysis doesn’t take into account is all the unsuccessful rezes that may or may not have gone on last night. We have no clue if others might have doubled up on any of the others in the ‘group of 8’ targets. It is entirely possible that multiple doubles-up happened and we only know about 1 due to the failed Cult kill. And it is possible that, given the Ritual is a free action, both rezes prevented a Greater Ritual from succeeding on Wicked.

I see absolutely no uncertainty in that flip. None, zero, zip.

So I'll be THAT GUY and say why bother with it? Not today, not later, not ever.

This is not wise. Actively giving scum a free janitored slot is not going to be helpful long-term. And taking care of the flip process while there are as many players as possible to help is the smart way to go.

EBWOP: that's an opinion, but it's backed up by your words in thread. I'm not passing empty judgement on what you've written.

It may not be empty judgement, but it is incorrect. Nothing in your case against me (sans being a meanie) doesn't apply to many other players (some of which are 'confirmed Town'). And when I see more detailed scum-hunting form anyone (even yourself, natch) than what I did with RC we can talk. Otherwise I’ll feel free to return the favor call your scum-hunting pitiful. It’s my opinion but it’s backed by your posting and isn’t empty judgement.

also, you saying I'll be a detriment in the endgame... go read this game of me as town:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=14722&start=1375

A single game doesn’t really change my opinion of you. Sorry. Your play here, in Harry Potter and other games I have read forms a more solid conclusion for me.

Come talk to me when you have a 5 or 10 game track record of not flinging crap all over the thread, not accusing more than 50% of the game during Day 1 of being scum, and generally being able to put together a reasoned posts routinely.

Here’s a hint – quoting three straight posts in a row and saying QFT isn’t scum-hunting or even usefully contributing. It’s spamming of the sheep variety.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nice way to not answer the question. It sounds like you're saying you don't want to stop him from killing, but do you think Benmage SHOULD kill tonight, and why?

The obvious answer is that Benmage should not kill.

1. The odds that he hits Cult, despite his bravado, are slight.
2. Keeping the Town alive pool as big as possible until we get some actual alignment flips to work with for relational tells will aid the Town long term.
3. The precious free Vig bite Investigators get should be saved until midgame.

My question to you – what purpose do you have asking the question. It’s not going to tell you one bit about my or anyone else’s alignment.

See, the problem here is that you deny 1 and 2 while admitting to them at the same time... that's spinning my brain around in circles.

Also, saying you're doing things to avoid being killed early amounts to admitting that you're playing scummy. You can't say that people don't have legitimate points on you when this is your defense for those actions.

Denying they are any sort of indication of scum-tells doesn’t mean I haven’t been purposely abrasive. If abrasiveness was a scum-tell Fate, Benmage, Sociopath and a host of others would have to be Mafia EVERY game. Making myself disliked for my abrasivness (and creating the air of future lynchability) hardly is commiting scummy actions.

Oh! It's your playstyle! Uhhh... no. That's not an acceptable reason to not be scumhunting.

Yet I am scum-hunting. I admitted it would be HAMPERED until relational tells appeared. You are specifically ignoring what was said and repeating the falsehood.

FACT – I questioned and put together a case on ReaperCharlie. You and others can cry all you want about it not being scum-hunting. It’s as much scum-hunting as ANYONE in the game has done.

Which is it?

Are your purposely being dense and attempting to assert some sort of contradiction here?

IN GENERAL lurking isn’t a scum-tell for everyone. However, in the case of a HYDRA WITH THREE PLAYERS WHO AREN’T IDIOTS the amount of lurking being done by El Goo leads me to believe they might well be scum. Especially when at least 1 of those heads has a history of laying low when scum.

In fact any of the Hydras in this game that are having a hard time keeping pace while single players are easily able to should be considered suspect.

What are you trying to say here? Are you actively susicious of me, or just don't find me obv-Town? If it's the latter, but you currently don't suspect me, why write this at all? If you do suspect me, why did you write this not as a case but as an admonition to anyone who finds me Townish? In either case I don't see a good reason for this to be formulated the way this is.

Nice. You pop up suddenly when your name appears in a less than positive manner. And you don’t address the issues I addressed. I’ve been hammered for being only about self-preservation and here’s a perfect example. No comments about issues not aimed directly at you or scum-hunting?

You are definitely not obv-Town.

As for the rest of the questions? Sorry, you blew off my question regarding El Goo not once but twice. I don’t know why you should expect me to do you the courtesy you didn’t extend.

MoI, do you really think I'm scum? Why are you voting for me? Do you even have a case?

You don’t have a case on me. Why should I need one on you? Why so touchy about a single vote?

Bro-drius, I know you're busy and all but can you please grace us with your presence? Your last post was on Nov 4. I'll ask you these questions to help you ease back into the game:

Yeah, after he’s been called out for lurking making his transition back into the game easy is so nice of you. And you very well know he had plenty of time to SPAM the Dead QT in LOTR Mafia so he had time to post here. But please, make excuses for the player who you logically should have no idea of his alignment.

Well, the overlap isn't just between two investigators - as you say, that's statistically likely (assuming randomness). However, the likelihood of three actions targeting the same player (cult, npau, Feysal) is significantly smaller, and no-one's pointed to any standout qualities of Wicked that might attract these actions, over, say, VP Baltar or xvart. However, there's a limited field, and potentially a fair few kits, so I haven't entirely disregarded the possibility of a coincidence; I'm just skeptical at this point. I think it's at least as good an indicator as any of the behavioural reads people are throwing around.

I think the scepticism is healthy. And you are correct that the behavioral tells being presented are very weak at this stage. I guess I’m not willing to focus my attention directly based on what could be happenstance. This incidence goes in my back pocket for future relational assessment of Feysal and NoPoint.

If you don't think Furc is of any use to the town, why didn't you just stalk him and vig him out? Confirming your status as an investigator in the process.
If you don't scum hunt well before flips are revealed, why not keep a bit quieter and wait for them?
If you wanted to dribble scum to avoid being a NK, why do so in such an abrasive fashion? Especially in a game with so much potential for "doctor" saves for those who manage to get obv/confirmed town status.

Stalking and killing someone right out of the box is absurdly Anti-Town. The one free bite at the Vig every investigator had should be saved for the strategic time later in the game.

I said my abilities were hampered before flips not that I’m an idiot. I can point to any number of games where I nailed and lynched scum Day 1. Most of those coincide with me being killed early. Once Reaper’s alignment is known we can assess the quality of my Day 1 case.

The potential for Doc saves are highly overrated, especially if you consider that anyone using a Rez kit can’t be rezzed. And I’ve died many a game which had Docs while being ObvTown. There are enough ‘name’ players in the game that banking on protection is a dumb move.

What in the name of everything holy is this?

"I'm scummy on PURPOSE, yo" is garbage. In THIS setup with no PR's I have no words.

Spare me. You’ve made a career here of being obtuse and annoying as a tactic to limit your perceived obv-Town status.

MoI ditches the ElG wagon when it started taking off, ElG votes MoI but then removes the vote.

So you are saying, as scum-buddies, that the smart play would be to abandon each other’s wagon as the were built?

And wouldn’t I have to have voted for El Goo at any point today to have ‘abandoned the wagon’? Because I didn't vote for them today.

This unfortunately is applying to the MoI case right now. I respect him as a really good player, so I'm instantly more suspicious of him than I am of others. To complicate the situation, players like Oj, VP Baltar, and sotty have all said that he's scummy. But, I still feel guilty when I think about voting him because I don't want him to die if I'm wrong. I do see his scumminess, but I'm just less comfortable voting him than I am other players.

I have to ask Nico – where does your impression of my ability come from? We’ve never (unless I’m having a senior moment right now) played a game together and I’ve never been modded by you.

I’m going to say to you what I said to Mina after Clash of Kings – never let a players reputation affect your willingness to vote when you think someone is scummy. Too often people with reps get a pass because ‘Player Y is so awesome and if I voted him and was wrong it would be a huge mistake’. And they shouldn’t. It’s one of my major peeves about the culture here on MS (or part of it, I also despise some of the cronying that goes on in certain circles).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey look ... more pointless vote cheerleading.

I really don't have the willpower to slog through another round of 'You aren't scumhunting and are mean' and such tonight.

Perhaps I will have the will to deal with the repeition tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So where was I –

Oh yeah this is my sign-off post. I’m not really going to bother to fight the upcoming deadline. My apologies to Percy … you made a great game and I didn’t give it my all over the past 2 weeks. Too many other games and too much work combined for the distaste some have generated in me during this game.

UNVOTE: VV
VOTE: MoI

At least this way the rhetoric and crap-tastic case makers can have their play analyzed by the remaining Town.

Based on personal experience and gut the following players on my wagon are most likely to be Cult – VP Baltar, Trilobyte, Plum, Baby Spice.

Then perhaps throw in anyone who gnashes their teeth and wails about self-voting after this.

Obviously I’m not agreeing to any graveyard rob plan since I’ll be dead.

Wow look Fate had an insanity. Shocker. Yes, I’m purposefully still being a dick. Sue me.

Plum

– Your whole response at 2258 I really could care less about. I’ll summarize my read of it.

1. You admit to popping up because I called you not-obvTown.
2. You state that you are scum-hunting by making a case on Wraith that you let whaft into the ether and really didn’t push and for bantering with Spyrex. Ok. So why if Spyrex is scummier than expect haven’t you developed it. That’s right … because it’s not actual scum-hunting but busywork. Arguing against a Benmage lynch that was NEVER going to happen? Ok, that’s not scum-hunting either.
3. You don’t like that I singled you out for special attention. Sorry. You can parse skimming and ignoring my questions as valid by my ignoring yours in turn as scummy if you wish.
4. I love the pre-emptive defense of OMGUS. I’ve never actually accused that of actually being a Scum-tell ever.

Here’s the facts of the matter. I’m going to be dead today. I don’t really have the energy or will to put on a big, blustery show of why what amounts to a ‘Path of Least Resistance’ wagon on me is a bad Idea.

I’m not Cult. Cult knows this. Cult has every reason to cruise along with the flow of the tide and not make waves as I get wagonned. Is every Cult member going to do so? Nope … but some will. And you are a PRIME candidate for doing just that.

So yeah, when I flip Town I hope (but don’t expect) people to say ‘Hey, all those players pushing that easy lynch because MoI was mean might have had an ulterior motive.

Whuutt? *face palm*. I get it now though. You're obviously projecting! You're saying that the reason I'm tunneling on you is because you wounded my pride...when in reality, your pride is wounded because a 'subpar' player like me got a big wagon on you. And you are calling my reasons on voting you non-existent...because your reasons for voting me are non-existent! This is just classic psychology.

Continue to believe whatever you want VV. If it makes you feel better about yourself full steam ahead. Just remember – once again you are sadly and completely wrong. Continue the rhetoric and cheerleading though … it suits you.

And so here is my purpose: highlighting your hypocrisy between what you want people to think about you, and what you actually do. You logically ought to have been on the Ben wagon at some point today. Instead you have a vote on VV? Yeah.

You seriously think that I’ve been abrasive and mean but care what people think about me? Don’t be stupid. It’s pointless grandstanding to huff and puff about something you can’t control. And that’s exactly what Benmage’s behaviour is … something that can’t be controlled except by lynch.

The following players still need to give their opinions on kunkstar7:

At this late date I doubt your really care but I don’t really see kunkstar’s behavior as any more lynchworthy than the 6 to 10 other players doing exactly what he is doing. Keeping a low profile is a way to make it to later in the game.

First thoughts: MoI seems have an intense "sneer" feel in his posts. He's not giving off the vibe of "geez, you guys are on the wrong track" as much as "HAHA, your case is PITIFUL." I tend to call this a pretty strong scumtell, but it's also one that's very meta-dependant (i.e, some players sneer against all cases against them all the time regardless of alignment.) Would appreciate someone with meta knowledge of MoI to weigh in on this one.

If we ever cross paths again Hito please don’t ever try to attack anyone else’s personal scum-tells. Because your ‘sneer’ tell isn’t any more useful or indicative as anything else like Lurker, Liar or VI lynching. Once I flip you’ll see that.

He is a policy lynch because he is a good player. Furthermore, I feel like he would be posting more as town and whining less. I am keeping my vote where it is.

I have to laugh. Lynching lurkers, liars and VIs are bad policies. But lynching players just because they might be dangerous as scum? That’s Solid Gold right there.

Presents Furcolow with the VI of the Year Award

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sad that MoI keeps townwincon >_>

A wild troll appears ...

It uses "Moronic"

It isn't very effective ...

The Troll is defeated.

[MagnaofIllusion]

.

If I was MoI going for murderer I might not count this as a win...

Never intended to ... I was going Murderer and will not be logging this as a win.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good game Town ... despite some overall questionable Town play (Cowering more than once ... really) and selfish greedy bastards going Murder you got it together and pulled out a win.

Overall my impression of the Scum was that they played at worst a solid game and got screwed over by some untimely missed kills.

After reading the first couple hundred posts in the Scum QT I now know to call Andy scum pre-emptively in any game I am Town we play together.

Best Town decision of the game IMO? xvart murdering Furc. It cleared up a mislynch in the offing and confirmed him as non-scum.

Zach - Chesskid jumps in every game that ends that I played to troll me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ZTown won because no one had balls to go murderer.

Lies ....

Had VP Baltar not hopped on the fail VV "He's mean and nasty he can't be left for Town" wagon and actually made something workable out of it Day 2 I would have been around to screw the Town over more completely than I already did.

So